March 28, 2025 • 37 mins
In a time of deep division, singer-songwriter Sara Groves reflects on the challenge of staying connected amidst anger and isolation. Inspired by the biblical plague of darkness—when “man could not see his brother”—she wrote Deal Breaker as a way to process both grief and hope. In this episode of The Deepest Cut, Sara discusses the shift from Culture Care to Culture Wars, the pursuit of a “generative life,” and the role of art in bridging divides.
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S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
At this point, I trust that we've all felt the divide,
so there's really no need to go into it here.
(00:22):
We've all experienced our share of relational fractures these days,
and the resulting anxiety and confusion, the anger and isolation
have left so many of us wondering how we can
even find our way back to healthier connections with one another.
The outrage is all around us, and it's so easy
to lose our better selves as we engage with it all.
(00:43):
Singer songwriter Sara Groves says that it reminds her of
the plague of darkness in the biblical book of Exodus.
A span of time in Egypt were, quote, man could
not see his brother. And in her attempts to process
all of this, she penned the beautiful song Deal breaker.
Sarah's attempts to add to the beauty, which is my
favorite song of hers, by the way, have been greatly
(01:05):
appreciated over the last 25 years as a musician and
performing artist, and also as the founder of Art House
North in the Twin Cities area with her husband Troy.
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, Sarah sat down
with us to talk about the worrisome shift from culture
care to culture wars. And she also defines the, quote,
generative life that she's been striving to embody, even as
(01:29):
it feels more and more difficult to do so. She
also takes us inside the writing of Deal Breaker as
a way to hold the grief and hope at the
same time. Here's what I believe to be one of
our more important conversations from this podcast. We hope you
join us as we sit down with Sarah Groves. Hello
(02:01):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner,
and I'm your host. I am overjoyed to be sitting here.
I'm overjoyed on a melancholy podcast. I guess maybe that's
an odd juxtaposition. Sara Groves is sitting across from me here,
so to speak, and as a long time fan, I'm
I am overjoyed. Sara, how are you on this Monday afternoon?
S2 (02:22):
Doing great. Thank you Matt.
S1 (02:24):
So glad to have you. Sara, obviously, you know, this
is a podcast where we zero in on a specific song.
We talk about the songcraft of that song. But I
would like to start with you, with our communication about
even doing this in the first place, if that's all right. Yeah. Because,
you know, generally I reach out to an artist or
(02:44):
the artist representation, you know, however, whatever the portal is
to get in, to chat with an artist.
S2 (02:50):
My people, my entourage.
S1 (02:52):
My people got with your people and in and in
the back and forth there, you know, like I know
that you had some reservations because the hook of the
podcast is artists talking about the songs that maybe were
the most painful or difficult to write. And then I'm
sure that can be a scary proposition. I would never
know it because sometimes those artists say, no, I have
(03:14):
no interest in talking to you about that. But you
were the one who said yes, except maybe not. And
you kind of hedge there.
S2 (03:23):
Well, I think your email said to talk about or
unpack the hardest song. I think it said the hardest
song you've ever had to write. And I felt like, well,
I'm not sure I'm going to tell you or anyone
about that. You know, not just a little bit like Nunya.
That's Nunya business, Matt. But I wasn't that wouldn't be
(03:44):
my heart, you know. Obviously, I like I'm not like
a closed off person. I speak pretty openly about stuff.
So I understood the intention of what you were going for.
But I thought, I think I wrote you and said,
that's a pretty steep ask. Yeah. So I thought, well,
I can either hold my cards close to the chest
and say and just say either. Yeah, either no or
(04:05):
say yes. And then just pick a song that, you
know that would fit the bill. But I thought it's
interesting in light of like of what you're doing. So
I just thought, well, I'm going to tell you the truth. Like, no,
I'm probably not going to tell you about the hardest
song I ever had to write. Um, but I'd love
to discuss that idea, and I'd love to discuss a
song that was that was very difficult to write. Yes.
S1 (04:28):
Let me ask you this. Is there a song that
you've written and released that you would still say? I'm
not discussing that one.
S2 (04:35):
Oh for sure, absolutely.
S1 (04:37):
Okay, so it's not what you're referencing is not the
song that I wrote that I kept to myself or
this thing in my journal that no one's ever heard.
You're talking about, like, even songs that people may have
memorized the lyrics to. You're like, yeah, I'm not going there.
S2 (04:49):
Yeah. I mean, what I think about it is that
it doesn't necessarily belong to everybody. Like, I'm sharing the
parts that belong to us, you know, communally or whatever
that are part of. But I don't I don't feel
any sense of obligation to to say everything. I am aware,
as I say that of the Sarah McLaughlin song, um,
(05:10):
building a mystery, you know, about this person that is
sort of like always alluding to these difficult and, and enigmatic, uh,
trials that they're in. And so I'm not trying to
do that either. I'm not trying to, to say, oh,
I've had these really dark experiences that I'm not going to,
you know, divulge, like how hard it's been. Because as
(05:31):
we talk, I think I'll unpack and unpack that idea
that when I write something, it doesn't even begin to
touch the difficulty and the places that it meets and
other people and their stories, like the stories I hear
back about songs that are hard to write, are always
way more difficult. And from places I couldn't even fathom.
(05:51):
But I am like you are Matt. I am the
holder of a lot of memories and stories of other people.
And as I'm, uh, if I'm gonna open my whole
self up to, like, write what's true about a thing,
I have to explore all of that, you know? Um,
I remember years ago, um, I think it was Jason
Gray was talking about the story in, in, uh, when
(06:13):
Noah's two sons go into the tent and the one
comes into the tent and sees his witnesses, his dad's
sort of like destitution and nakedness, and he he runs
out and broadcasts his dad's nakedness to everybody. And, um,
and then the other son, you know, does something different
with that. And, and Jason was just saying, like, that's
actually a really valid question, what we do with other
(06:35):
people's stories. So they're not just all my stories, they're
also the stories of other people. Um, some of them
are mine, you know, of my own, like, complete. Uh boneheadedness.
You know, and I have been, you know, I'm chief
of sinners, so I'm in there to making making poor
choices or whatever. So I guess I don't feel the
need to unpack all of those things, and the ones
(06:58):
that are most difficult are tied to things and people
and situations that are really, you know, private and personal
to me. But I feel like they are my reflection
reflections on them and reflecting honestly about life as a
human being. They are going to make it in there.
You know, they're going to be in those spaces. But
(07:18):
I don't feel an obligation to unpack all of that
with everybody. Um, yeah. So that's it. I'm repeating myself now.
I always know that when I start to repeat myself,
it's time for me to stop. Because.
S1 (07:31):
Is that really the marker you've learned that?
S2 (07:33):
Oh, yeah. I'm a verbal processor. And if I start
saying something, repeating that, I think, okay, Sarah, that's let
the other person talk.
S1 (07:41):
Now that's.
S2 (07:42):
Great.
S1 (07:43):
As you learn, you've been doing this for a long time,
longer than most. So when you have that kind of experience,
it makes me believe you've had to learn some things
about how to handle the stories of others and then
like and how to know how to release them. Like,
what have you learned about that in your song craft
in terms of, in terms of handling difficult circumstances, maybe
(08:05):
some painful material, some some vulnerable emotions, especially when they're
just not your own. Do you have to hide them
behind analogies and wordplay? Do you have to hedge some things?
S2 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah. Um, that's a really funny one because I,
I had one early on in, um, in all right here.
I wrote a song and it involved someone, someone else's story,
and I didn't I didn't end up telling them. They
approached me before I could say anything and actually was like,
kind of a reveal about them and something they'd gone through.
(08:39):
They approached me and said, you know who really needs
to hear this song? And they were thinking of someone
completely different. And that's when I realized, oh, nobody knows. No,
nobody's listening. Like they like, is this me? You know, um,
if anything, everyone thinks every song is about me. And
that would be where that's pretty. That's also like a
type of vulnerability, I guess, to say, I'm going to
(09:02):
say this even though that's actually not me and that's
not my story. Um, and then other things are like
very much me. Um, sometimes I will change like a
pronoun or something so that it's the story if I'm referencing, like,
he or whatever. Maybe in the real story it was she. But.
But I'm the only one that really knows all that,
you know? So I wouldn't say I do a lot
of that anymore. I think early on I did because
(09:24):
I was more worried about people being hurt or whatever.
You know, Anne Lamott takes a totally different view of this.
She feels like, you know, if you did it, it's
fair game, you know? And I understand how that that's
why maybe I'm not writing books. You know, I think
that's a very scary prospect of writing a book. Um,
and I feel like I kind of understand why some
(09:44):
people wait with certain stories until till they're clear to
write them. You know, even, um, when I read Beth Moore's, um,
Moore's autobiography like she she waited till some time, you know,
to really unpack her story and and all that had
happened in her life. So I understand both. I understand
where Anne Lamott's coming from and the, the sort of like, hey,
(10:05):
you did that. So I'm going to, you know, this,
this is a part of my truth telling. And I'm
going to, you know, I'm going to put you in
the book. If you didn't want it to be in there,
you shouldn't have done that. Which I think is hilarious
and bold. I'm not that I'm not Anne Lamott, you know,
I'm just not wired that way. I'm very much a
bridge builder. Um, I'm very sensitive and, um, and I
(10:28):
do I care, you know, not that Anne Lamott doesn't
care what people think, but at some level, you know,
she's she's got the wherewithal to. Yeah, to, like, do
her thing. And I love what she does. So but
but the the question about other people's stories, I'm, I
really learned a lot from International Justice Mission about this
because I'd been a part of other ministries and organizations
(10:48):
that would really like sling, You know, they dealt in
other people's stories really loosely, and even photos that they
didn't know the names of the people in the photos,
you know, just that kind of thing. I think the
church kind of gets into that. You know, I grew
up in a in a holiness movement, a Pentecostal background,
and we were dealing in testimony time. I mean, that's,
(11:10):
you know, that's happening. And so you have the testimonies of, like,
the person in the airplane next to you or the
waitress that you you know what I mean? You had
this interaction with or whatever. Um, and yeah, I just
think when I went to work with Ejm, they do
not share a photo or a story unless that person
fully is aware of what's happening and has signed off
(11:31):
on it. And that means someone around the world that
doesn't even know what social media is, you know, so
they're very careful with people's stories. And I really grew
up a lot around I mean, when I was interfacing
with them, my own ideas about that really developed quite
a bit because I realized, in fact, I had permission
from a young girl that had been rescued by Ejm.
(11:53):
I used to tell her story and as she grew
up and became older, she felt called to tell her
own story. And she called Ejm and said, I want
I don't want anyone else telling this story. I feel
called to tell my own story. And so she had
given permission for me to share it. But then she
rescinded that permission, and I thought, what a wonderful, full
(12:13):
circle moment that you would be at, you know, saying
this advocacy on your on your own behalf. And so
I appreciated both her braveness, her bravery to share her story,
and then her decision to have that story be her own.
S1 (12:29):
Well, and that she knew the integrity of the organization,
that she could even request such a thing.
S2 (12:33):
Yes.
S1 (12:34):
And have that be honored is is quite the testimony
itself about the work of the organization?
S2 (12:39):
Yeah. I I've, I've always respected that about their, their work.
Now they are lawyers and I mean that is their,
that's their uh, their field that they're like yeah. No
you can't just do that. You can't just talk like that.
So it was. Yeah a good a good lesson in like,
I need to be thoughtful about this and I appreciate
that thoughtfulness. Yeah.
S1 (12:58):
Well, we do want to talk about the song that
you did want to talk about. The song is Deal
Breaker from your most recent album. After you acquiesced to
this request to like, okay, I will talk about a song,
what was it about Deal Breaker that made you say,
this is going to be the one I'm I'm willing
to to offer up?
S2 (13:18):
Well, and again, I want to say I'm not trying
to like, build a mystery or be, you know, some
kind of, you know, oh, I have all these songs
that I'm not going to tell you about because I
do I do share pretty openly. So when you asked,
and I'm glad you're giving me a moment to say
this as well. Um, when you asked, there are several
areas I could, you know, I could delve into, like writing. Um,
(13:41):
it's me about one of the worst arguments I've ever
had with Troy. You know? Um, Troy, let me put.
I asked his permission, and he let me put a
lot of songs out about our marriage. Um, and he's
confident that way, I'll tell you that. He he eggs
me on. He wants me to share a role to
the middle. He's the one who said, that's got to
be on that album. So, um, so he encourages me
(14:03):
that way to really songs that are inspired by our, like,
sort of dance and conflict. You know, he'll encourage me
to share that. And then I feel the love between us,
you know, the ones about our the ways that we
are deeply connected. So I appreciate that freedom that he's
given me in that realm. And I hear back from
a lot of people that, that that level of, of
openness does, you know, does speak to them. Um, and
(14:24):
then I've spoken a lot about, um, depression in my
journey with mental health. That was very hard to write about.
I when I went to write about it, I had
to deal with how much shame I had around my
journey with depression especially, and it was just as therapeutic
as the record sounds for me to name all these
things in it. So. So yeah, there have been many
(14:46):
things that have been like kind of hard to work through.
And in working through them, they've they've been my they've
been my therapy. The reason I picked this one is
because it's so it's more current to where I'm at
right now. And it just it was a whole journey.
It started out as a very, um, very angry song.
I was venting something, uh, about a sense of betrayal,
(15:07):
I guess. And it's just really speaking to, like, the
divisions that are happening nationally at, you know, politically at
a national level, come right down to our kitchen tables.
And I don't know, I don't know a person that
isn't touched by it, you know. And so, you know,
we have these these relationships and I have I am
a bridge builder. Um, you know, Troy is more he's
(15:29):
a bit more combative, like he's an eight on the Enneagram,
an activator, you know, uh, a world changer. You know,
for a while there, he was, like, having street fights
on on Facebook, you know, with family members and old,
you know, and like, Sunday school teachers and stuff like that. So, um, I'm.
And then and then in his own due course, he,
he kind of like, you know what? The kids are
(15:51):
watching me and, and I, you know, he he had
his own sort of moment where he was like, this
isn't this. I don't know that this is beneficial. So
I have convictions, but I also am very much have
always been, uh, not just a bridge builder. I think
the working title for the book that I haven't written
yet would be, um. I can see how you get there,
because I, I can see how you get there. I,
(16:13):
I have, you know, it sometimes it makes me feel like,
am I a coward that I don't, you know, have
more of a voice about this thing or that thing.
But I really think my, the, the, the hill I
die on is that if we've lost the humanity of
each other, if we've lost sight of each other's humanity,
(16:35):
then we've lost the whole the whole plot. You know,
we really have lost the plot line. And how do
I negotiate talking about our shared humanity and our imago day,
our image bearer ness. How do I keep that in
front of us? You know where the conversations that we
have feel so much of, like the symptoms of the
(16:57):
of the deeper disease, the deeper illness. And that would be, um,
in Exodus, the plague of darkness that covers is covers Egypt.
The the Hebrew word for that it says basically the
interpretation of the I can't remember which plague it was,
but the plague of darkness. It says a man could
not see his brother. Brother could not see his brother.
(17:17):
And I think that is a darkness that besets us and, um,
that we cannot see each other. And I think that
maybe one of the, the most difficult things are the
way that like the way that we would name the
sin of each other, the way that we would call out,
you know, each other's sort of, um, failings and things, uh, um,
the failings, they, you know, they have we have the
(17:40):
names and the and they're plentiful. But I would say,
have we thought about the sin of not seeing our
brother and then not seeing God? I think when you
lose sight of the maker and then those that are
made in his image, um, that is just egregious. And
so to me, I this I started this song in
the in the space of conviction of like, I need
(18:03):
to voice how how betrayed I feel by you. You
know that that this relationship and this is about someone
in my life. Actually, that was when I moved to Minnesota.
I only knew Troy. I didn't know anyone else. I
didn't have a friend in the world. I moved from Missouri,
got married, moved up here, and if Troy and I
had a fight, you know, I didn't have anybody else
in the world. And God brought a number of people
(18:25):
into my life, um, friends and whatever that there was
a person that was really close to me, like a
second mother to me. The divisions of of late have,
you know, created a wedge. And I think that one
hurts a lot because I just can't believe the content
of the wedge. You know, I just can't I can't
believe Really, this this is the thing, you know, this
(18:46):
is the stuff of of of our chasm. I just
I see it, I just don't it's it's a mystery
to me that that would be that there wouldn't be
a maybe a curiosity or a or a longing to
understand where maybe where I'm coming from or, you know,
at first I was angry, I felt betrayed, and I
was like on this a little bit like Troy, like, like, uh,
(19:07):
spoiling for a fight. And I think in the process
of writing the song, there were so many, there was
so much grief. Um, I think Troy tends to like anger, and,
I don't know, like this. I think this is different personalities,
not anger. He's not. He's definitely not an angry person.
He's a very, actually very thoughtful person. But, you know,
he doesn't. He's like, you know, I don't care. I
(19:29):
can he can move on, you know? And for me,
a lot of that conflict takes the form of grief.
And so I started out in like this, this anger,
this hurt. And I was going to name, you know,
name names and, you know, it was kind of the
song had kind of like a a sass to it,
like a real twisting of the, you know, the knife.
(19:51):
And then I just as I wrote it, I was
reckoning with I'm just so sad like, this absolutely grieves
me that I would be looked upon with, with suspicion
by people that I've, you know, because I have this
opinion or carry, you know, whatever. Um, and that some
of my like work via like social justice would be
(20:11):
read as like, you know, with disdain and, you know,
it just was I just I had such a sense
of like, where am I, where what is this? You know, and,
and and then how do I combat this? How do
I steer clear of culture war and stay engaged in
culture care, which is the whole like add to the beauty.
And that's the premise of my life, is we've been
(20:33):
invited into the renewal of all things, all things like
God cares about water systems and and foster care systems
and and everything, and we're invited to bring the whole
of our imagination to bear on on those things. And
so art house North that we run a art community
center here in, in Saint Paul. Our whole thing, creative
community for the common good, is predicated on this invitation
(20:57):
to be a part of the renewal of all things.
And so and to be a part of culture care
and not culture war. Um, because that pits you, that
puts you in a stance of weaponized, you know, apologetics weaponized. Um,
you know, faith where you're constantly in a stance, a
defensive stance. And so I've let the words of, like,
(21:18):
here are, you know, in the land of the living,
Charlie Peacock, Makoto Fujimura, um, and others, their language around
the generative life have really shaped who I am and
what I'm doing here. And so it felt like a
real breaking of that, that that sort of to be
looked on with suspicion when I'm, when I've been kind
of like, I think I'm doing the same thing I've
(21:39):
always done, but then certain words and language are triggering
these disparate responses. Um, I just I had overwhelming grief
by the end of it, and I felt really glad
in the same way that, um, the song he's Always
Been Faithful started out as a really kind of rant
to God, a real angry song, and like, where are you?
And then God challenged me and said, if if you
(22:01):
could flip through like a Rolodex of your life and
pick a story where the great gift of his presence,
you know, wasn't true, and in hindsight, I couldn't see
that he had been with me then, you know, and
he's obviously let me write lots of doubting songs. I've
written songs about doubt, you know, all throughout. But that
one I felt arrested and stopped. If you can find
(22:22):
one right now, you know, he he let me write
this song saying, all I have need of your hand
will provide. Before I saw that come to fruition. And
I felt the same way about this one at Deal Breaker,
that I was sort of, um. I'm singing aspirationally about
my hope. It ends up being a hopeful song, even
though it's about. Absolutely. Like Broken Relationships, it ends up
(22:46):
being a hopeful song and a vision. A vision for
Jubilee and a vision for us to see the, you know, the, um,
give each other the benefit of the doubt, you know? And, um,
so that's I that this record didn't, you know, I
feel like I put it on a conveyor belt in 2022.
I like released it. I didn't have a lot of
bandwidth to, like, promote it. I just literally I put
(23:08):
it out. I felt like it was on a, on
a conveyor belt and it just, like, disappeared. And, um,
but I, I feel like with any music, you know,
you just put it out and hope I hope people
hear that, you know, and they understand like the that
it might also be, uh, helpful and useful in that
place of their grief and their, you know, anger, maybe
(23:30):
sense of betrayal and frustration.
S1 (23:32):
By the way, when you say you said it on
a conveyor belt, it just disappeared. Is that because of
of the pandemic and kind of where we were all at,
where the business was at.
S2 (23:41):
I've been all this time. I'm on a label, but
it's very I'm very self. I'm, for all intents and purposes,
I'm pretty independent and I have been for some time
because the label is really their work is still tied
to Christian radio, and I haven't been really tied to
Christian radio. I think Jeff Mosley, the president of Fair Trade,
has has done me a favor, you know, and been like,
(24:01):
championed me and kept me in that system of like
a labeled artist as far as, like how I deliver
music to Apple Music and things like that. But I'm,
I'm really independent label that he does marketing and distribution for,
you know, so so because I am I'm really an
indie artist in that sense. Even though I am signed with,
I have some label amenities. Um, I just, I honestly,
(24:26):
I put the record out and I, I went in,
I had experienced another bout of depression. I think it
was just the making of it and all that. I
didn't have any bandwidth to like to release it and,
you know, whatever. It just almost came out in the
one day, and then I, I didn't even have the
energy to like, talk about it. So it was just
where I was at. It was everything. It was post pandemic.
(24:47):
I had produced the record for the first time. I,
I did it myself and, um, it was it was
just quite a mountain to climb. And so I just
sort of like, I feel like I got, I got
right across the finish line and that was all I had,
you know. So and I just have felt like, you know,
I think like I have really all along, my whole career,
I feel like God's kindness to me is like, not
(25:10):
everyone will get what you're doing, but there are ears
and they'll they'll find it, you know, and that that
will happen. So I'm not complaining about it. I'm just
I'm just observing like it was just sort of that's
how it felt. And that's how, you know, the numbers
bear out that it's just, you know, not been as
listened to. But I feel like the record is it
(25:30):
was me working through the the moment we're in what
we're doing and wrestling with all of it. But again,
that's not That's not like sour grapes on my part.
It's it's I didn't have the energy to do it.
So that was on. It was on me.
S1 (25:44):
Within the song. I just I just love this song.
It even could be applicable into a number of situations
if you wanted to read it through certain lenses. So
it's good to kind of know the lens that you
were viewing it through. Can you take me into like,
do you remember writing this? I guess I just want
to read this for people who aren't. I mean, well,
people can hear it in a second. But you wrote
there's grief like a blackbird ever present in the sky.
(26:07):
And I can feel all our distance and the hidden
reasons why. But some days I can see us and
we're soft and reconciled. One just the word. The use
of soft there is so impactful in this wonderful way.
And the imagery there. Do you remember writing that? That
was that. Did that come at the end? Was that
(26:28):
a centerpiece from the beginning? Was that difficult to write?
I guess within the song itself, I'd love to know
about that stanza.
S2 (26:34):
Um, that was the pivot from anger to grief. That
was the pivot. And it and I actually had a whole,
you know, a whole version of this written with a more,
you know, an angry. I actually tried to find it. Matt.
And I couldn't find it, but it was just like
sassier angrier. The music was, you know, it was just
more dark and brooding. I mean, this is a pretty
(26:54):
dark and brooding song, but it was when I went to.
I always feel like the bridge is the thesis or
the hands on the face. It's when I take your
face in my hands and I say, this is the thesis.
You know, it's not so on the nose as that.
But to say in, in songwriting, I think. And I've
always just loved this about poetry and anything Mary Oliver,
whoever's writing when you're working in the macro and then
(27:16):
you take the micro, you know, or vice versa, where
you're in the, the micro, and then all of a
sudden you get a macro view that to me, that
that's sort of the role of the bridge is usually
in juxtaposition to the rest of the song. And so yeah,
so earlier I'm saying, um, kind of like the business
end of it, you know, it's like we're trying to
(27:36):
decide what we can abide. David Darke talks about we
are what we abide. And that kind of sits in
my heart some days where I think, oh, am I?
Am I not railing enough against them? You know, the
things that I that are like, that I have convictions about.
But but we're all doing it. I look at my
friends and I know that when I'm with them, they're
also looking at me and going, oh, how much of
(27:57):
of you and what you're bringing to this friendship can
I abide? We're both holding our tongues, and we're both
trying to occasionally like venturing out to speak our minds.
So it's kind of like that's the business end of it.
And then at the bridge, I really get to the
heart of it. It's like, ultimately I'm sad. Like, I
feel this sadness daily. Um. It's not I didn't just, like,
(28:21):
stop talking to you, you know, like, I see that
we're not talking, and that wasn't. That isn't something I'm
okay with. It's a it is a dark shadow in
my day, you know. And then I can feel it.
I understand how he got here. And I have a
dream for us, you know? And it's just that aspirational.
(28:42):
So that is the pivot. That is the fulcrum of
of pivoting from like, is there a way can I'm
at the beginning, someone asked me, is this when you say, hey,
at the very top of the song, hey, can you
picture us on the other side? Of course, they thought
it was heaven and I was like, no, no, it's
not heaven. This first stanza is inspired by the, um,
World War One, Silent Night, the truce on the front
(29:04):
lines of World War One, when the the soldiers on
Christmas Eve started singing Silent Night. You know what I'm
talking about.
S1 (29:11):
I don't, I don't.
S2 (29:12):
It's a it's a beautiful story in a they made
a movie about it called Joy, Joy and Noelle, but
it was on the French on the front line in
in France, no man's land is that space between the
two trenches. And there was a spot where the trenches
are particularly close, where they were. Someone began singing Silent
(29:32):
Night on Christmas Eve, and the other side began singing
as well. They come out of the trenches, they play football.
They have an evening of they basically declare a ceasefire
for a set of of the story has been told,
you know, a lot of different ways. There's a group
called Cantu, a men's tenor group that does a, um,
(29:54):
a sung version of The Silent Night. It's just beautiful.
But I was that's that was the image I had
in my mind. Can we envision ourselves? Do you have
a vision of us past this with all this wreckage
around us? Are we able to. Are we? Can we
do this? Could we call cease fire and like come
up and what are we doing? Are we actually shaking
(30:15):
hands and patting each other on the back? Like, is
it like, can you believe that? Whoa. You know, it's
all now it's behind us. Um, so in the bridge, I'm, I'm,
I'm saying, like, I can see it. I can see us.
So at the beginning, I'm actually asking the question, can
you see us? And in the bridge. I'm saying I can.
I can see us. I don't know how we get there,
(30:38):
but I can. I can just picture us being tender again.
S1 (30:41):
I love that, you know, it ends with what you
mentioned earlier, this dream of Jubilee, as you've put this
song out there. I know that you said the numbers
bear it out, that it's not maybe as popular of
an album, and then consequently, the songs haven't gotten as
much attention. And it's not like you've toured this song
for years and years and years and closed every show
with it or something. But but I do wonder, for
(31:02):
those of you who have heard it, for those of
you have interacted with, it makes me wonder, like as
you put this out, are you finding that people resonate with?
I feel that grief too. I've been wondering this too.
S2 (31:13):
Yeah, probably more than any song on this record. People
are drawn to this song.
S1 (31:18):
Really?
S2 (31:18):
Yeah. And I think it speaks to the moment we're in.
S1 (31:22):
And other people feel that same difficulty even to hold out.
S2 (31:25):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's very it's very close to
the heart. It's not It's not like the fallout isn't
happening with some distant person that you kind of saw
once a year. You know, it's it's happening in our
families and people that are really close to us. I
was just at a family funeral and of course, everyone.
(31:46):
It's wonderful. I mean, being together is wonderful. I actually
had a couple funerals this fall, and I've been with
a lot of family and they're, you know, the views
range just as broadly as it gets. And it was
actually really encouraging and beautiful to be at these events. And,
and for us to sit around the table and have,
you know, break bread together and just have wonderful times
(32:09):
of sharing memories and seeing each other, meeting each other
in our spaces of love and care for each other. Um,
instead of kind of the sniping. The more sniping spaces
we can find ourselves in where we're like getting our
comment out there or, you know, going online. And again,
of course, I'm talking about being online. But yeah, it
was just it was really encouraging to me and, and
(32:30):
a and a reinforcement that being in person really matters.
And caring, caring and being curious are always better than,
you know, judgment, quick judgment and and dismissal.
S1 (32:44):
I love that all this was made possible by your
willingness to write the song, but then not leave it
as it was. But like, you know, you said there
was this other version. Now you can even find it.
S2 (32:54):
Yeah.
S1 (32:55):
And then and then now we're talking about this finished
product together. I just love that that that journey. And
you trusted that journey. I think that's pretty great.
S2 (33:03):
Yeah. I'm glad I can't find the other version. That's true.
S1 (33:07):
Maybe it'll be like a remix, like Sarah Sassy remix album.
Something that comes out like twisted versions of other songs.
S2 (33:13):
Yeah.
S1 (33:14):
Well, Sarah, we'd love for you to to take us
into the song and maybe anything else you'd want to
add or, or whatever you want to say about it.
S2 (33:21):
Yeah. Well, I hope this brings peace to somebody's heart. Who's, uh. Yeah.
Who's maybe experiencing, um, having a deal breaker conversation with
someone you love. This is deal breaker from What Makes
It Through by Sara Groves.
S3 (33:40):
Hey, can you picture us on the other side? With
detritus and wreckage far and wide. And are we crossing
over no man's land? Are we patting backs and shaking hands?
(34:03):
I always thought with you and me, though we're not
on paper. There would never be a. Break. And we're
(34:38):
both deciding where we can abide. Holding our tongues and
speaking our minds. We're living out our daily lives. Jesus
praying in our different dreams. And I always thought with
(35:03):
you and me, though it's not on paper. There would
never be a. Break. And there's green like a black
(35:32):
bird ever present in the sky. I can feel. It
in the head and real wide. But some days I
(35:53):
can see us. And we're soft and reconciled. Last night
(36:15):
I dreamt we walked the riverbed. Listen closely for what's
not been said. Last night I dreamt of July. New
beginnings as far as the eye can see. Hoo!
S4 (36:48):
Hoo! Hoo!
S1 (37:06):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
At this point, I trust that we've all felt the divide,
so there's really no need to go into it here.
(00:22):
We've all experienced our share of relational fractures these days,
and the resulting anxiety and confusion, the anger and isolation
have left so many of us wondering how we can
even find our way back to healthier connections with one another.
The outrage is all around us, and it's so easy
to lose our better selves as we engage with it all.
(00:43):
Singer songwriter Sara Groves says that it reminds her of
the plague of darkness in the biblical book of Exodus.
A span of time in Egypt were, quote, man could
not see his brother. And in her attempts to process
all of this, she penned the beautiful song Deal breaker.
Sarah's attempts to add to the beauty, which is my
favorite song of hers, by the way, have been greatly
(01:05):
appreciated over the last 25 years as a musician and
performing artist, and also as the founder of Art House
North in the Twin Cities area with her husband Troy.
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, Sarah sat down
with us to talk about the worrisome shift from culture
care to culture wars. And she also defines the, quote,
generative life that she's been striving to embody, even as
(01:29):
it feels more and more difficult to do so. She
also takes us inside the writing of Deal Breaker as
a way to hold the grief and hope at the
same time. Here's what I believe to be one of
our more important conversations from this podcast. We hope you
join us as we sit down with Sarah Groves. Hello
(02:01):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner,
and I'm your host. I am overjoyed to be sitting here.
I'm overjoyed on a melancholy podcast. I guess maybe that's
an odd juxtaposition. Sara Groves is sitting across from me here,
so to speak, and as a long time fan, I'm
I am overjoyed. Sara, how are you on this Monday afternoon?
S2 (02:22):
Doing great. Thank you Matt.
S1 (02:24):
So glad to have you. Sara, obviously, you know, this
is a podcast where we zero in on a specific song.
We talk about the songcraft of that song. But I
would like to start with you, with our communication about
even doing this in the first place, if that's all right. Yeah. Because,
you know, generally I reach out to an artist or
(02:44):
the artist representation, you know, however, whatever the portal is
to get in, to chat with an artist.
S2 (02:50):
My people, my entourage.
S1 (02:52):
My people got with your people and in and in
the back and forth there, you know, like I know
that you had some reservations because the hook of the
podcast is artists talking about the songs that maybe were
the most painful or difficult to write. And then I'm
sure that can be a scary proposition. I would never
know it because sometimes those artists say, no, I have
(03:14):
no interest in talking to you about that. But you
were the one who said yes, except maybe not. And
you kind of hedge there.
S2 (03:23):
Well, I think your email said to talk about or
unpack the hardest song. I think it said the hardest
song you've ever had to write. And I felt like, well,
I'm not sure I'm going to tell you or anyone
about that. You know, not just a little bit like Nunya.
That's Nunya business, Matt. But I wasn't that wouldn't be
(03:44):
my heart, you know. Obviously, I like I'm not like
a closed off person. I speak pretty openly about stuff.
So I understood the intention of what you were going for.
But I thought, I think I wrote you and said,
that's a pretty steep ask. Yeah. So I thought, well,
I can either hold my cards close to the chest
and say and just say either. Yeah, either no or
(04:05):
say yes. And then just pick a song that, you
know that would fit the bill. But I thought it's
interesting in light of like of what you're doing. So
I just thought, well, I'm going to tell you the truth. Like, no,
I'm probably not going to tell you about the hardest
song I ever had to write. Um, but I'd love
to discuss that idea, and I'd love to discuss a
song that was that was very difficult to write. Yes.
S1 (04:28):
Let me ask you this. Is there a song that
you've written and released that you would still say? I'm
not discussing that one.
S2 (04:35):
Oh for sure, absolutely.
S1 (04:37):
Okay, so it's not what you're referencing is not the
song that I wrote that I kept to myself or
this thing in my journal that no one's ever heard.
You're talking about, like, even songs that people may have
memorized the lyrics to. You're like, yeah, I'm not going there.
S2 (04:49):
Yeah. I mean, what I think about it is that
it doesn't necessarily belong to everybody. Like, I'm sharing the
parts that belong to us, you know, communally or whatever
that are part of. But I don't I don't feel
any sense of obligation to to say everything. I am aware,
as I say that of the Sarah McLaughlin song, um,
(05:10):
building a mystery, you know, about this person that is
sort of like always alluding to these difficult and, and enigmatic, uh,
trials that they're in. And so I'm not trying to
do that either. I'm not trying to, to say, oh,
I've had these really dark experiences that I'm not going to,
you know, divulge, like how hard it's been. Because as
(05:31):
we talk, I think I'll unpack and unpack that idea
that when I write something, it doesn't even begin to
touch the difficulty and the places that it meets and
other people and their stories, like the stories I hear
back about songs that are hard to write, are always
way more difficult. And from places I couldn't even fathom.
(05:51):
But I am like you are Matt. I am the
holder of a lot of memories and stories of other people.
And as I'm, uh, if I'm gonna open my whole
self up to, like, write what's true about a thing,
I have to explore all of that, you know? Um,
I remember years ago, um, I think it was Jason
Gray was talking about the story in, in, uh, when
(06:13):
Noah's two sons go into the tent and the one
comes into the tent and sees his witnesses, his dad's
sort of like destitution and nakedness, and he he runs
out and broadcasts his dad's nakedness to everybody. And, um,
and then the other son, you know, does something different
with that. And, and Jason was just saying, like, that's
actually a really valid question, what we do with other
(06:35):
people's stories. So they're not just all my stories, they're
also the stories of other people. Um, some of them
are mine, you know, of my own, like, complete. Uh boneheadedness.
You know, and I have been, you know, I'm chief
of sinners, so I'm in there to making making poor
choices or whatever. So I guess I don't feel the
need to unpack all of those things, and the ones
(06:58):
that are most difficult are tied to things and people
and situations that are really, you know, private and personal
to me. But I feel like they are my reflection
reflections on them and reflecting honestly about life as a
human being. They are going to make it in there.
You know, they're going to be in those spaces. But
(07:18):
I don't feel an obligation to unpack all of that
with everybody. Um, yeah. So that's it. I'm repeating myself now.
I always know that when I start to repeat myself,
it's time for me to stop. Because.
S1 (07:31):
Is that really the marker you've learned that?
S2 (07:33):
Oh, yeah. I'm a verbal processor. And if I start
saying something, repeating that, I think, okay, Sarah, that's let
the other person talk.
S1 (07:41):
Now that's.
S2 (07:42):
Great.
S1 (07:43):
As you learn, you've been doing this for a long time,
longer than most. So when you have that kind of experience,
it makes me believe you've had to learn some things
about how to handle the stories of others and then
like and how to know how to release them. Like,
what have you learned about that in your song craft
in terms of, in terms of handling difficult circumstances, maybe
(08:05):
some painful material, some some vulnerable emotions, especially when they're
just not your own. Do you have to hide them
behind analogies and wordplay? Do you have to hedge some things?
S2 (08:18):
Yeah, yeah. Um, that's a really funny one because I,
I had one early on in, um, in all right here.
I wrote a song and it involved someone, someone else's story,
and I didn't I didn't end up telling them. They
approached me before I could say anything and actually was like,
kind of a reveal about them and something they'd gone through.
(08:39):
They approached me and said, you know who really needs
to hear this song? And they were thinking of someone
completely different. And that's when I realized, oh, nobody knows. No,
nobody's listening. Like they like, is this me? You know, um,
if anything, everyone thinks every song is about me. And
that would be where that's pretty. That's also like a
type of vulnerability, I guess, to say, I'm going to
(09:02):
say this even though that's actually not me and that's
not my story. Um, and then other things are like
very much me. Um, sometimes I will change like a
pronoun or something so that it's the story if I'm referencing, like,
he or whatever. Maybe in the real story it was she. But.
But I'm the only one that really knows all that,
you know? So I wouldn't say I do a lot
of that anymore. I think early on I did because
(09:24):
I was more worried about people being hurt or whatever.
You know, Anne Lamott takes a totally different view of this.
She feels like, you know, if you did it, it's
fair game, you know? And I understand how that that's
why maybe I'm not writing books. You know, I think
that's a very scary prospect of writing a book. Um,
and I feel like I kind of understand why some
(09:44):
people wait with certain stories until till they're clear to
write them. You know, even, um, when I read Beth Moore's, um,
Moore's autobiography like she she waited till some time, you know,
to really unpack her story and and all that had
happened in her life. So I understand both. I understand
where Anne Lamott's coming from and the, the sort of like, hey,
(10:05):
you did that. So I'm going to, you know, this,
this is a part of my truth telling. And I'm
going to, you know, I'm going to put you in
the book. If you didn't want it to be in there,
you shouldn't have done that. Which I think is hilarious
and bold. I'm not that I'm not Anne Lamott, you know,
I'm just not wired that way. I'm very much a
bridge builder. Um, I'm very sensitive and, um, and I
(10:28):
do I care, you know, not that Anne Lamott doesn't
care what people think, but at some level, you know,
she's she's got the wherewithal to. Yeah, to, like, do
her thing. And I love what she does. So but
but the the question about other people's stories, I'm, I
really learned a lot from International Justice Mission about this
because I'd been a part of other ministries and organizations
(10:48):
that would really like sling, You know, they dealt in
other people's stories really loosely, and even photos that they
didn't know the names of the people in the photos,
you know, just that kind of thing. I think the
church kind of gets into that. You know, I grew
up in a in a holiness movement, a Pentecostal background,
and we were dealing in testimony time. I mean, that's,
(11:10):
you know, that's happening. And so you have the testimonies of, like,
the person in the airplane next to you or the
waitress that you you know what I mean? You had
this interaction with or whatever. Um, and yeah, I just
think when I went to work with Ejm, they do
not share a photo or a story unless that person
fully is aware of what's happening and has signed off
(11:31):
on it. And that means someone around the world that
doesn't even know what social media is, you know, so
they're very careful with people's stories. And I really grew
up a lot around I mean, when I was interfacing
with them, my own ideas about that really developed quite
a bit because I realized, in fact, I had permission
from a young girl that had been rescued by Ejm.
(11:53):
I used to tell her story and as she grew
up and became older, she felt called to tell her
own story. And she called Ejm and said, I want
I don't want anyone else telling this story. I feel
called to tell my own story. And so she had
given permission for me to share it. But then she
rescinded that permission, and I thought, what a wonderful, full
(12:13):
circle moment that you would be at, you know, saying
this advocacy on your on your own behalf. And so
I appreciated both her braveness, her bravery to share her story,
and then her decision to have that story be her own.
S1 (12:29):
Well, and that she knew the integrity of the organization,
that she could even request such a thing.
S2 (12:33):
Yes.
S1 (12:34):
And have that be honored is is quite the testimony
itself about the work of the organization?
S2 (12:39):
Yeah. I I've, I've always respected that about their, their work.
Now they are lawyers and I mean that is their,
that's their uh, their field that they're like yeah. No
you can't just do that. You can't just talk like that.
So it was. Yeah a good a good lesson in like,
I need to be thoughtful about this and I appreciate
that thoughtfulness. Yeah.
S1 (12:58):
Well, we do want to talk about the song that
you did want to talk about. The song is Deal
Breaker from your most recent album. After you acquiesced to
this request to like, okay, I will talk about a song,
what was it about Deal Breaker that made you say,
this is going to be the one I'm I'm willing
to to offer up?
S2 (13:18):
Well, and again, I want to say I'm not trying
to like, build a mystery or be, you know, some
kind of, you know, oh, I have all these songs
that I'm not going to tell you about because I
do I do share pretty openly. So when you asked,
and I'm glad you're giving me a moment to say
this as well. Um, when you asked, there are several
areas I could, you know, I could delve into, like writing. Um,
(13:41):
it's me about one of the worst arguments I've ever
had with Troy. You know? Um, Troy, let me put.
I asked his permission, and he let me put a
lot of songs out about our marriage. Um, and he's
confident that way, I'll tell you that. He he eggs
me on. He wants me to share a role to
the middle. He's the one who said, that's got to
be on that album. So, um, so he encourages me
(14:03):
that way to really songs that are inspired by our, like,
sort of dance and conflict. You know, he'll encourage me
to share that. And then I feel the love between us,
you know, the ones about our the ways that we
are deeply connected. So I appreciate that freedom that he's
given me in that realm. And I hear back from
a lot of people that, that that level of, of
openness does, you know, does speak to them. Um, and
(14:24):
then I've spoken a lot about, um, depression in my
journey with mental health. That was very hard to write about.
I when I went to write about it, I had
to deal with how much shame I had around my
journey with depression especially, and it was just as therapeutic
as the record sounds for me to name all these
things in it. So. So yeah, there have been many
(14:46):
things that have been like kind of hard to work through.
And in working through them, they've they've been my they've
been my therapy. The reason I picked this one is
because it's so it's more current to where I'm at
right now. And it just it was a whole journey.
It started out as a very, um, very angry song.
I was venting something, uh, about a sense of betrayal,
(15:07):
I guess. And it's just really speaking to, like, the
divisions that are happening nationally at, you know, politically at
a national level, come right down to our kitchen tables.
And I don't know, I don't know a person that
isn't touched by it, you know. And so, you know,
we have these these relationships and I have I am
a bridge builder. Um, you know, Troy is more he's
(15:29):
a bit more combative, like he's an eight on the Enneagram,
an activator, you know, uh, a world changer. You know,
for a while there, he was, like, having street fights
on on Facebook, you know, with family members and old,
you know, and like, Sunday school teachers and stuff like that. So, um, I'm.
And then and then in his own due course, he,
he kind of like, you know what? The kids are
(15:51):
watching me and, and I, you know, he he had
his own sort of moment where he was like, this
isn't this. I don't know that this is beneficial. So
I have convictions, but I also am very much have
always been, uh, not just a bridge builder. I think
the working title for the book that I haven't written
yet would be, um. I can see how you get there,
because I, I can see how you get there. I,
(16:13):
I have, you know, it sometimes it makes me feel like,
am I a coward that I don't, you know, have
more of a voice about this thing or that thing.
But I really think my, the, the, the hill I
die on is that if we've lost the humanity of
each other, if we've lost sight of each other's humanity,
(16:35):
then we've lost the whole the whole plot. You know,
we really have lost the plot line. And how do
I negotiate talking about our shared humanity and our imago day,
our image bearer ness. How do I keep that in
front of us? You know where the conversations that we
have feel so much of, like the symptoms of the
(16:57):
of the deeper disease, the deeper illness. And that would be, um,
in Exodus, the plague of darkness that covers is covers Egypt.
The the Hebrew word for that it says basically the
interpretation of the I can't remember which plague it was,
but the plague of darkness. It says a man could
not see his brother. Brother could not see his brother.
(17:17):
And I think that is a darkness that besets us and, um,
that we cannot see each other. And I think that
maybe one of the, the most difficult things are the
way that like the way that we would name the
sin of each other, the way that we would call out,
you know, each other's sort of, um, failings and things, uh, um,
the failings, they, you know, they have we have the
(17:40):
names and the and they're plentiful. But I would say,
have we thought about the sin of not seeing our
brother and then not seeing God? I think when you
lose sight of the maker and then those that are
made in his image, um, that is just egregious. And
so to me, I this I started this song in
the in the space of conviction of like, I need
(18:03):
to voice how how betrayed I feel by you. You
know that that this relationship and this is about someone
in my life. Actually, that was when I moved to Minnesota.
I only knew Troy. I didn't know anyone else. I
didn't have a friend in the world. I moved from Missouri,
got married, moved up here, and if Troy and I
had a fight, you know, I didn't have anybody else
in the world. And God brought a number of people
(18:25):
into my life, um, friends and whatever that there was
a person that was really close to me, like a
second mother to me. The divisions of of late have,
you know, created a wedge. And I think that one
hurts a lot because I just can't believe the content
of the wedge. You know, I just can't I can't
believe Really, this this is the thing, you know, this
(18:46):
is the stuff of of of our chasm. I just
I see it, I just don't it's it's a mystery
to me that that would be that there wouldn't be
a maybe a curiosity or a or a longing to
understand where maybe where I'm coming from or, you know,
at first I was angry, I felt betrayed, and I
was like on this a little bit like Troy, like, like, uh,
(19:07):
spoiling for a fight. And I think in the process
of writing the song, there were so many, there was
so much grief. Um, I think Troy tends to like anger, and,
I don't know, like this. I think this is different personalities,
not anger. He's not. He's definitely not an angry person.
He's a very, actually very thoughtful person. But, you know,
he doesn't. He's like, you know, I don't care. I
(19:29):
can he can move on, you know? And for me,
a lot of that conflict takes the form of grief.
And so I started out in like this, this anger,
this hurt. And I was going to name, you know,
name names and, you know, it was kind of the
song had kind of like a a sass to it,
like a real twisting of the, you know, the knife.
(19:51):
And then I just as I wrote it, I was
reckoning with I'm just so sad like, this absolutely grieves
me that I would be looked upon with, with suspicion
by people that I've, you know, because I have this
opinion or carry, you know, whatever. Um, and that some
of my like work via like social justice would be
(20:11):
read as like, you know, with disdain and, you know,
it just was I just I had such a sense
of like, where am I, where what is this? You know, and,
and and then how do I combat this? How do
I steer clear of culture war and stay engaged in
culture care, which is the whole like add to the beauty.
And that's the premise of my life, is we've been
(20:33):
invited into the renewal of all things, all things like
God cares about water systems and and foster care systems
and and everything, and we're invited to bring the whole
of our imagination to bear on on those things. And
so art house North that we run a art community
center here in, in Saint Paul. Our whole thing, creative
community for the common good, is predicated on this invitation
(20:57):
to be a part of the renewal of all things.
And so and to be a part of culture care
and not culture war. Um, because that pits you, that
puts you in a stance of weaponized, you know, apologetics weaponized. Um,
you know, faith where you're constantly in a stance, a
defensive stance. And so I've let the words of, like,
(21:18):
here are, you know, in the land of the living,
Charlie Peacock, Makoto Fujimura, um, and others, their language around
the generative life have really shaped who I am and
what I'm doing here. And so it felt like a
real breaking of that, that that sort of to be
looked on with suspicion when I'm, when I've been kind
of like, I think I'm doing the same thing I've
(21:39):
always done, but then certain words and language are triggering
these disparate responses. Um, I just I had overwhelming grief
by the end of it, and I felt really glad
in the same way that, um, the song he's Always
Been Faithful started out as a really kind of rant
to God, a real angry song, and like, where are you?
And then God challenged me and said, if if you
(22:01):
could flip through like a Rolodex of your life and
pick a story where the great gift of his presence,
you know, wasn't true, and in hindsight, I couldn't see
that he had been with me then, you know, and
he's obviously let me write lots of doubting songs. I've
written songs about doubt, you know, all throughout. But that
one I felt arrested and stopped. If you can find
(22:22):
one right now, you know, he he let me write
this song saying, all I have need of your hand
will provide. Before I saw that come to fruition. And
I felt the same way about this one at Deal Breaker,
that I was sort of, um. I'm singing aspirationally about
my hope. It ends up being a hopeful song, even
though it's about. Absolutely. Like Broken Relationships, it ends up
(22:46):
being a hopeful song and a vision. A vision for
Jubilee and a vision for us to see the, you know, the, um,
give each other the benefit of the doubt, you know? And, um,
so that's I that this record didn't, you know, I
feel like I put it on a conveyor belt in 2022.
I like released it. I didn't have a lot of
bandwidth to, like, promote it. I just literally I put
(23:08):
it out. I felt like it was on a, on
a conveyor belt and it just, like, disappeared. And, um,
but I, I feel like with any music, you know,
you just put it out and hope I hope people
hear that, you know, and they understand like the that
it might also be, uh, helpful and useful in that
place of their grief and their, you know, anger, maybe
(23:30):
sense of betrayal and frustration.
S1 (23:32):
By the way, when you say you said it on
a conveyor belt, it just disappeared. Is that because of
of the pandemic and kind of where we were all at,
where the business was at.
S2 (23:41):
I've been all this time. I'm on a label, but
it's very I'm very self. I'm, for all intents and purposes,
I'm pretty independent and I have been for some time
because the label is really their work is still tied
to Christian radio, and I haven't been really tied to
Christian radio. I think Jeff Mosley, the president of Fair Trade,
has has done me a favor, you know, and been like,
(24:01):
championed me and kept me in that system of like
a labeled artist as far as, like how I deliver
music to Apple Music and things like that. But I'm,
I'm really independent label that he does marketing and distribution for,
you know, so so because I am I'm really an
indie artist in that sense. Even though I am signed with,
I have some label amenities. Um, I just, I honestly,
(24:26):
I put the record out and I, I went in,
I had experienced another bout of depression. I think it
was just the making of it and all that. I
didn't have any bandwidth to like to release it and,
you know, whatever. It just almost came out in the
one day, and then I, I didn't even have the
energy to like, talk about it. So it was just
where I was at. It was everything. It was post pandemic.
(24:47):
I had produced the record for the first time. I,
I did it myself and, um, it was it was
just quite a mountain to climb. And so I just
sort of like, I feel like I got, I got
right across the finish line and that was all I had,
you know. So and I just have felt like, you know,
I think like I have really all along, my whole career,
I feel like God's kindness to me is like, not
(25:10):
everyone will get what you're doing, but there are ears
and they'll they'll find it, you know, and that that
will happen. So I'm not complaining about it. I'm just
I'm just observing like it was just sort of that's
how it felt. And that's how, you know, the numbers
bear out that it's just, you know, not been as
listened to. But I feel like the record is it
(25:30):
was me working through the the moment we're in what
we're doing and wrestling with all of it. But again,
that's not That's not like sour grapes on my part.
It's it's I didn't have the energy to do it.
So that was on. It was on me.
S1 (25:44):
Within the song. I just I just love this song.
It even could be applicable into a number of situations
if you wanted to read it through certain lenses. So
it's good to kind of know the lens that you
were viewing it through. Can you take me into like,
do you remember writing this? I guess I just want
to read this for people who aren't. I mean, well,
people can hear it in a second. But you wrote
there's grief like a blackbird ever present in the sky.
(26:07):
And I can feel all our distance and the hidden
reasons why. But some days I can see us and
we're soft and reconciled. One just the word. The use
of soft there is so impactful in this wonderful way.
And the imagery there. Do you remember writing that? That
was that. Did that come at the end? Was that
(26:28):
a centerpiece from the beginning? Was that difficult to write?
I guess within the song itself, I'd love to know
about that stanza.
S2 (26:34):
Um, that was the pivot from anger to grief. That
was the pivot. And it and I actually had a whole,
you know, a whole version of this written with a more,
you know, an angry. I actually tried to find it. Matt.
And I couldn't find it, but it was just like
sassier angrier. The music was, you know, it was just
more dark and brooding. I mean, this is a pretty
(26:54):
dark and brooding song, but it was when I went to.
I always feel like the bridge is the thesis or
the hands on the face. It's when I take your
face in my hands and I say, this is the thesis.
You know, it's not so on the nose as that.
But to say in, in songwriting, I think. And I've
always just loved this about poetry and anything Mary Oliver,
whoever's writing when you're working in the macro and then
(27:16):
you take the micro, you know, or vice versa, where
you're in the, the micro, and then all of a
sudden you get a macro view that to me, that
that's sort of the role of the bridge is usually
in juxtaposition to the rest of the song. And so yeah,
so earlier I'm saying, um, kind of like the business
end of it, you know, it's like we're trying to
(27:36):
decide what we can abide. David Darke talks about we
are what we abide. And that kind of sits in
my heart some days where I think, oh, am I?
Am I not railing enough against them? You know, the
things that I that are like, that I have convictions about.
But but we're all doing it. I look at my
friends and I know that when I'm with them, they're
also looking at me and going, oh, how much of
(27:57):
of you and what you're bringing to this friendship can
I abide? We're both holding our tongues, and we're both
trying to occasionally like venturing out to speak our minds.
So it's kind of like that's the business end of it.
And then at the bridge, I really get to the
heart of it. It's like, ultimately I'm sad. Like, I
feel this sadness daily. Um. It's not I didn't just, like,
(28:21):
stop talking to you, you know, like, I see that
we're not talking, and that wasn't. That isn't something I'm
okay with. It's a it is a dark shadow in
my day, you know. And then I can feel it.
I understand how he got here. And I have a
dream for us, you know? And it's just that aspirational.
(28:42):
So that is the pivot. That is the fulcrum of
of pivoting from like, is there a way can I'm
at the beginning, someone asked me, is this when you say, hey,
at the very top of the song, hey, can you
picture us on the other side? Of course, they thought
it was heaven and I was like, no, no, it's
not heaven. This first stanza is inspired by the, um,
World War One, Silent Night, the truce on the front
(29:04):
lines of World War One, when the the soldiers on
Christmas Eve started singing Silent Night. You know what I'm
talking about.
S1 (29:11):
I don't, I don't.
S2 (29:12):
It's a it's a beautiful story in a they made
a movie about it called Joy, Joy and Noelle, but
it was on the French on the front line in
in France, no man's land is that space between the
two trenches. And there was a spot where the trenches
are particularly close, where they were. Someone began singing Silent
(29:32):
Night on Christmas Eve, and the other side began singing
as well. They come out of the trenches, they play football.
They have an evening of they basically declare a ceasefire
for a set of of the story has been told,
you know, a lot of different ways. There's a group
called Cantu, a men's tenor group that does a, um,
(29:54):
a sung version of The Silent Night. It's just beautiful.
But I was that's that was the image I had
in my mind. Can we envision ourselves? Do you have
a vision of us past this with all this wreckage
around us? Are we able to. Are we? Can we
do this? Could we call cease fire and like come
up and what are we doing? Are we actually shaking
(30:15):
hands and patting each other on the back? Like, is
it like, can you believe that? Whoa. You know, it's
all now it's behind us. Um, so in the bridge, I'm, I'm,
I'm saying, like, I can see it. I can see us.
So at the beginning, I'm actually asking the question, can
you see us? And in the bridge. I'm saying I can.
I can see us. I don't know how we get there,
(30:38):
but I can. I can just picture us being tender again.
S1 (30:41):
I love that, you know, it ends with what you
mentioned earlier, this dream of Jubilee, as you've put this
song out there. I know that you said the numbers
bear it out, that it's not maybe as popular of
an album, and then consequently, the songs haven't gotten as
much attention. And it's not like you've toured this song
for years and years and years and closed every show
with it or something. But but I do wonder, for
(31:02):
those of you who have heard it, for those of
you have interacted with, it makes me wonder, like as
you put this out, are you finding that people resonate with?
I feel that grief too. I've been wondering this too.
S2 (31:13):
Yeah, probably more than any song on this record. People
are drawn to this song.
S1 (31:18):
Really?
S2 (31:18):
Yeah. And I think it speaks to the moment we're in.
S1 (31:22):
And other people feel that same difficulty even to hold out.
S2 (31:25):
Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. It's very it's very close to
the heart. It's not It's not like the fallout isn't
happening with some distant person that you kind of saw
once a year. You know, it's it's happening in our
families and people that are really close to us. I
was just at a family funeral and of course, everyone.
(31:46):
It's wonderful. I mean, being together is wonderful. I actually
had a couple funerals this fall, and I've been with
a lot of family and they're, you know, the views
range just as broadly as it gets. And it was
actually really encouraging and beautiful to be at these events. And,
and for us to sit around the table and have,
you know, break bread together and just have wonderful times
(32:09):
of sharing memories and seeing each other, meeting each other
in our spaces of love and care for each other. Um,
instead of kind of the sniping. The more sniping spaces
we can find ourselves in where we're like getting our
comment out there or, you know, going online. And again,
of course, I'm talking about being online. But yeah, it
was just it was really encouraging to me and, and
(32:30):
a and a reinforcement that being in person really matters.
And caring, caring and being curious are always better than,
you know, judgment, quick judgment and and dismissal.
S1 (32:44):
I love that all this was made possible by your
willingness to write the song, but then not leave it
as it was. But like, you know, you said there
was this other version. Now you can even find it.
S2 (32:54):
Yeah.
S1 (32:55):
And then and then now we're talking about this finished
product together. I just love that that that journey. And
you trusted that journey. I think that's pretty great.
S2 (33:03):
Yeah. I'm glad I can't find the other version. That's true.
S1 (33:07):
Maybe it'll be like a remix, like Sarah Sassy remix album.
Something that comes out like twisted versions of other songs.
S2 (33:13):
Yeah.
S1 (33:14):
Well, Sarah, we'd love for you to to take us
into the song and maybe anything else you'd want to
add or, or whatever you want to say about it.
S2 (33:21):
Yeah. Well, I hope this brings peace to somebody's heart. Who's, uh. Yeah.
Who's maybe experiencing, um, having a deal breaker conversation with
someone you love. This is deal breaker from What Makes
It Through by Sara Groves.
S3 (33:40):
Hey, can you picture us on the other side? With
detritus and wreckage far and wide. And are we crossing
over no man's land? Are we patting backs and shaking hands?
(34:03):
I always thought with you and me, though we're not
on paper. There would never be a. Break. And we're
(34:38):
both deciding where we can abide. Holding our tongues and
speaking our minds. We're living out our daily lives. Jesus
praying in our different dreams. And I always thought with
(35:03):
you and me, though it's not on paper. There would
never be a. Break. And there's green like a black
(35:32):
bird ever present in the sky. I can feel. It
in the head and real wide. But some days I
(35:53):
can see us. And we're soft and reconciled. Last night
(36:15):
I dreamt we walked the riverbed. Listen closely for what's
not been said. Last night I dreamt of July. New
beginnings as far as the eye can see. Hoo!
S4 (36:48):
Hoo! Hoo!
S1 (37:06):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
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