February 14, 2025 • 30 mins
Ben McDonald has been writing, recording, releasing, and performing songs about hope for nearly 25 years. Almost half of that time, he and his wife Carie were experiencing the very absence of it as they tried again and again unsuccessfully to have children. These days, the McDonalds are a family of three, but the shadows that loomed over so many years are still informing the present.
On this episode of The Deepest Cut, we sat down with McDonald, a founding member of Sidewalk Prophets, to hear more about “I Believe It Now,” a song born in the darker moments of waiting.
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S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
For nearly 25 years now, Ben McDonald has been writing, recording,
releasing and performing songs about hope for so many of
(00:24):
those years. However, in fact, for nearly half that time,
he and his wife Kerri were experiencing the very absence
of it as they tried again and again and again unsuccessfully,
to have children. There were fertility treatments that didn't work.
Years of using their nursery to be for other purposes,
people who said the wrong things, hurtful things, even as
(00:46):
they were trying to be helpful while singing or playing
songs about the need to hold on with his band,
Sidewalk Prophets. Ben says he found it difficult to do
the same in the face of so much confusion and sorrow. Now.
These days, the MacDonald family is a family of three,
with a two year old son named Theodore having just
joined them in 2022. But the shadows that loomed over
(01:09):
so many years are still very much informing the present,
albeit in a different way, one that Ben says makes
him appreciate the gift of parenthood. Having longed for it
like they did on this episode of The Deepest Cut,
I sat down with Ben, a founding member of Sidewalk Prophets,
a band with five number one singles and a win
for Best New Artist at the Dove Awards. To hear
(01:31):
more about their song called I Believe It Now. It's
a song born in the darker moments of waiting, and yet,
like so many other hits in the band's catalog, the
song has been used to provide light to others mired
in their own dark spaces. Ben and I dove into
the deep end of the pool for this conversation, and
we think you'll appreciate the perspective it yields for all
(01:52):
of us, no matter our circumstances. Here's Ben McDonald from
Sidewalk Prophets here on the Deepest Cut. Hello. With me
(02:14):
today is Ben McDonald, Sidewalk Prophets, founding member of the
Dove Award winning band. Welcome to the show, my friend.
How are you?
S2 (02:23):
Well, well, thank you for having me. I'm doing well,
and it's good to see you. We have a long
history of being. I consider you like a bestie. If
we were in the same place for. For enough time,
I agree.
S1 (02:38):
You're, um. You're a good guy. Everyone else I have
on the show here is not. They're not good guys
or girls, but this is the one episode where there's
a good guy. Oh, yeah. Ben, it's great to chat.
I mean, we've been chatting for a long time already,
even before officially hitting record here. But, uh, But welcome
to the deepest cut. You know, obviously we talk about
(02:59):
the most painful or the most difficult song you've ever written.
You've chosen one. We'll get to hear it here in
a few minutes. But before we get into the context
of this song, I'd love to actually like, are you
a sad song guy, by the way? Like, like, would
you say that? Like your artistic. Like your taste. Your
musical taste? Like do you? Because I am like, I'm
(03:20):
all melancholy. And are you that way too?
S2 (03:23):
Oh, absolutely. I think just I want there to be a,
I want emotion to be evoked. So whether you know.
And so I just want that button to be pushed.
So absolutely love, love loves that song.
S1 (03:38):
So yeah. Yeah. My my wife by the way can't relate.
She's like why would you want to feel sad? And
I'm like, wait, why would you just want to not
feel I mean I just like I can't relate at all.
I'm like, what? What do you how do you not
want to feel all the things. And she's like, that
just sounds miserable.
S2 (03:54):
Well, that's actually, I think about that quite often about
sad songs about because a lot of like sad songs.
I think about why would you listen to like a
great sad song you listen to over and over again
and it's kind of like what your wife is saying.
It's kind of like sometimes I don't understand it, but
(04:14):
then it's so good and so well crafted and so
poignant that you just can't help but have that emotion,
you know, over and over and over.
S1 (04:24):
So I say all this as I'm restarting Carrie and
Lowell by Sufjan or something for the 20th time. Yeah, yeah. Hey, um,
so take me into, um, not just for this song,
but part of maybe some of the not stress, but
maybe the tension is this idea of of. We were
(04:47):
even talking about this a little bit before, before we
officially hit record when you're when you're processing the experience,
and maybe we could talk about it through the lens
of this song, but like, how sad do you allow
yourself to get as a songwriter? Like, we were just
talking about you like sad songs, right? Like philosophically, for
you as a songwriter, how sad do you let the
(05:08):
song get or is there no limit? And really, the
limit is what you allow people to hear?
S2 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. So I think
the and as far as the artistry of it, you
have to go where you know, where it will take you. Uh,
if that and that sounds that's kind of a weird answer.
And maybe I can think of a better way to
way to say it, but I think you dig in
(05:35):
until you feel it. And so and that so that
may be digging some songs that may be digging deeper
and other songs. Uh, not so much, but it's like
you have to feel it and you have to be
able to, to relate to it. And so I think
that that is for a lot of the songs like this,
you know, songs that have more maybe not necessarily sad,
(05:56):
but sometimes sad, and then also, um, more deeper meanings, uh,
that you have to. Yeah, you have to sit in it.
You know, you have to, to marinate in in what
that feels like to be able to, to, uh, communicate
it well.
S1 (06:14):
Yeah. Yeah. And and just to be clear, for the
sake of the podcast, we're not just just talking about sad.
We're talking about difficult or pain. I mean, there are
a few emotions on this part of the spectrum here.
Today we're the song we're talking about for sidewalk is,
I believe it now, right?
S2 (06:32):
Yes.
S1 (06:33):
And I just want to read out loud a few
of these lyrics, because I'm hoping you could take us
inside if you're comfortable with it. Take us inside the
story behind it. But some of these lines saying, like, um,
stuck on the tracks and the train is bearing down
or screaming from the top of my lungs. Who will
save me, right? A little bit later, you know, you say,
(06:56):
I've got the devil on, uh, you know, I've got
the devil on my shoulder. And he's leaving me for dead, right? Like,
like those are pretty, like, drastic images of just feeling, obviously,
places of desperation and isolation, you know, at wit's end.
Can you tell us what's happening in your life that that, like,
conjures those images and where that comes from?
S2 (07:18):
Yeah. So if you were to ask me when I
was writing these lines, I don't think I knew exactly
what I was going through. I knew I do know
now a lot. I have a lot better idea now
that time has passed. But there was such a heaviness
in life. And I'm actually sitting, uh, I'm in my
studio right now, and this is where I actually wrote those,
(07:41):
those lines. And I remember, uh, because I was, I
was playing piano and I was kind of building a track,
and I was writing out these lyrics, and I was
and my wife, at one point, my wife said, I
can't remember if she yelled up to me, or maybe
we were getting ready for bed at night and she said, hey,
(08:01):
you were singing these lyrics, you know? And it was
really depressing.
S1 (08:07):
Was she worried about you? Like, was she like, do
I need to check on your mental health?
S2 (08:10):
Yeah. Well she she's like, that's really. Yeah. That's really
sad or. Yeah, I think so. And she's like, that's
where I was in my life at that point. And
so it was just, uh, you know, my story and,
and part of the field behind this song is, you know,
my wife and I had 12 years of infertility. And,
(08:34):
you know, we went through we did IVF, we went through, uh,
we went through periods of being told we weren't going
to be able to have a kid to thinking we
might have, and then back to We're not going to
be able to have a kid to to going through
IVF unsuccessfully to, you know, to having uh, going to
(08:54):
healthcare professionals, uh, that were not very professional and, uh,
all the way through the spectrum. And then you're sitting
up here in the middle of all this. The hope
and desire of our heart is God. We just want
a kid so bad. We just want a baby so bad.
And I think the culmination of all of those feelings of, like,
(09:17):
wanting something so bad and not being able to to
get grasp it or get a taste of it. Then
the the narrative in your head kind of starts to turn,
and it kind of can take you to these places
that are a little bit more dark and a little
bit more, a little bit more difficult. And so that's
where those, you know. Yeah, I think you referenced like
(09:39):
the stuck on the tracks train bearing down, as you know,
screaming from my lungs who will save me now? And
it's just, uh. It really is a lament. You know,
it is, uh. What? Like, where will my help come
from in these moments where you feel helpless? And, uh,
that at that point, it was. There was just so
much grieving. Uh, and it's just a weird thing where
(10:02):
the hoping, where hope and grief are kind of in
the same room. And it's kind of. And it's just
kind of there, like, like kind of, uh, tangoing together
in a weird, in a weird, in a weird way.
And it was just such a low, low spot. And
that that's what came out. I could like that's not
(10:23):
I wasn't trying to do anything other than communicate what
was in my heart. And, you know, so I didn't
sit down to say, uh, I didn't sit down and say,
let me write this sad song or this lament. It's
I have to do this because it's what's in me,
you know?
S1 (10:42):
Was was that, um, because it doesn't sound like you
sat down to write, like I'm going to process the
fact that we haven't been able to have a child yet.
Let me write that song. No, it just sounds like
it was almost like I feel a heaviness. Let me
just let the heaviness speak. Is that. Is that what
it was?
S2 (11:00):
Yeah, I yes. And I don't think you think of it, uh,
you know, so consciously. I think you're right. It's not
I think I wasn't thinking about anything other than life
is really hard right now. And I'm just sitting up
in my studio and I'm just, uh. And then all
of a sudden, you know, I'm playing the piano, and
then all of a sudden, the words are coming out
(11:22):
therapeutically for me to process, uh, the hurt and pain
and the struggle of where we were in our lives
at that point.
S1 (11:31):
How long ago was this song, by the way?
S2 (11:34):
So I would guess it's probably, I would say probably 2019. 19. So.
So prior to Covid, prior to pandemic.
S1 (11:43):
Prior to having a baby?
S2 (11:45):
Yeah. Yes.
S1 (11:46):
How did that feel? Writing. Because even what we're quoting
is a verse that leads to more hopeful refrains later
in the song. But that came before the baby. So which,
by the way, we should clarify. You have a you
have a son now, right?
S2 (12:03):
Yeah, I do, yeah I do. Yep. He's a two
year old and his name is Theodore and he's the
he's so much fun.
S1 (12:10):
Take me back to that. Like, did that feel weird
to try to find a hopeful refrain in the midst
of that or or. No.
S2 (12:17):
You just asked. You just asked the the best question because.
And I gotta give credit to. So the song is co-written.
So Dave, uh, Dave Fry, who has been my longtime
partner in crime, um, and we've been doing this for
almost 25 years. Holy cow. Uh, almost 25 years now.
And then, uh, Ellie Holcomb, who is one of the
(12:41):
she is one of the best writers of all time.
That was the first time we ever wrote with Ellie.
I went into this songwriting session and I pushed back
pretty hard because I didn't want to find resolve for
where I was at at the time. I didn't want
to find resolve in the song. I just wanted to lament. And,
(13:05):
you know, and and of course, Ellie and Dave were
in a different space in their, in their, uh, their lives.
And I was just like, I remember asking specifically saying, guys,
do we have to resolve this, you know? And that
was because it was hard for me at that point
to say I that's not where my like that's not
where I'm at at a point of resolution right now.
(13:28):
It's I'm at a point of like, uh, really just
contemplating life. And, you know, as far as my faith goes.
And as far as life goes, I was at this
point where I was just like, let. And you hear
it in the song, you know, it's in the lyrics
of the song, but it's like, you know, raising my
(13:49):
fist up to the sky. And because it's like, God,
where are you in all of this? And that's, that's
I wanted to convey that and, uh. Yeah. So so yeah,
to answer your question. Yeah, it was it was very hard.
And we ended up, uh, I think the song landed
in a space that now having a child and being
(14:09):
on the flip side of on the other side of
that experience, uh, I'm very thankful for where the song
ended up and that I had those two in the
room because I think it embodies a a more complete experience.
S1 (14:23):
At the time. Did you lose the battle and were
you mad if you did lose the battle?
S2 (14:29):
Uh, so the battle for the battle for direction.
S1 (14:32):
Yeah. Like in that room you said I'm fighting for
a lack of resolve, right? Which I think maybe most
of us, at least the two of us here, would
say that there is a problem, maybe within circles of
Christian culture, where you're not allowed to just lament that
it has to have a bow tied, etc. and we
talk about that a lot on this kind of podcast.
But but in that room, like, were you like, did
(14:56):
you lose that battle?
S2 (14:57):
I think it ended up in the space that it
was supposed to end up. But I do think because
I'm pretty, like, I'm pretty stubborn, like when it comes
to like, uh, when I know what I want and
what I feel is best, uh, I don't give up usually. Ever, uh,
you know, and and but this is like, I, we talk.
(15:17):
I mean, in the writers room. The one thing I
appreciate about co-writing is the different perspective. Uh, and so
we talked about a lot about that. I think there
was a compromise, but I wouldn't call it losing. In
the case of this song, I would just say that, uh,
my perspective was was changed. So, uh, now, if left
(15:41):
to my own devices and they're, you know, this song
would be probably completely different. You know, because. But but
I say it ends up in the space that I
think it needed to, you know, where this song should
have ended up? I think it ended up what? Uh,
I'm very thankful and proud. And honestly, the feedback we
get on the song and from people like it achieved
(16:04):
what you would hope a song would achieve. Because people
say because those first couple verses are are so lamentable.
People can put themselves in this where, where they're at
in their life, whether it's, you know, it's for somebody else.
It's not infertility, but it's their job, their sickness, their kids,
(16:25):
their family life or whatever, and they are able to
put themselves in that. They're able to see that and
that and feel that. So I think it's a mission
accomplished as far as that goes, you know? Yeah.
S1 (16:37):
Yeah. Do you remember? And maybe, maybe this isn't true
at all, but was there a time where your relationship
with the song changed because Theodore had been born? Like,
do you remember, like, playing this song for the first
time on the other side of, like, hey, actually, now
I understand the refrain. Now the song does feel complete.
Or was there not like such a moment?
S2 (16:59):
Well, I don't know that it's it's not no kind
of audible God moment, but definitely a, you know, you
at least in my experience, there's been so many times
everything is like a slow build into, uh, like, right,
like it's a infertility. If it lasted a week, it
wouldn't be so bad. But then, uh, it's another week,
(17:23):
and then it's another week, and then it's a year,
and then it's another year, and then it's. Yeah. And
so in the same way, in the same way it
can get you're digging into that trench. It's a slow
to the place where you're out of that trench is
a slow is a slow thing as well. So I
(17:44):
so every day I'm realizing now it's not like just
one moment, but it's a, it's kind of a slow,
you know. Well, I think about this quite often. I
think about Theodore, our boy is a miracle. Like a living,
breathing miracle. And I think about all the 12 years
(18:06):
of the ups and the downs, the tears of wanting
something so badly. And then there will be times now
that he's two. The terrible twos. Uh, um. Where I'm
yelling at him. And I'll find myself pausing and I'll go.
I'm yelling at a miracle. Wow. And because you forget that? Uh.
(18:29):
I remember sitting on the couch downstairs and getting the
news when we found out that were that we were pregnant.
It was. My wife was a teacher at a school.
I was at home. And we had this agreement because
the doctor was going to call. Uh, call. And to
call the teller of the results of our, uh, if
we were pregnant or not. And the we our agreement
(18:53):
was that we would find out together. So Carrie was
at work, and the doctor called twice, and she texted
me and said, hey, the doctor called twice. I think
it might be something important. She came home and we
sat on the couch and on, uh, and I still
have the I still have the voice, um, mail on
my phone, but it's, uh, she played it and it's. Hey, hey, hey,
(19:17):
it's doctor. And, uh, congratulations. You're, you know, you're pregnant.
And then I just started, uh, Carrie is, uh, I'm
ecstatic because I think all that she ever wanted was
she knew how much I wanted to be a dad.
And and so she's like, you're gonna be a dad.
And she's so excited. And then I'm like, I'm crying,
talking about it now. But I was just bawling because
(19:41):
it's it's just this moment you don't think will ever happen.
And when it does happen, it's just. Yeah, it's pretty, uh,
pretty surreal feeling after all that all those years and
all that to be all that saying that the miracle.
It's quick. It's funny how quickly you can forget about
the miracle when you're in the in the throes of
(20:02):
everyday life. Like I'm yelling at my kid and and
those things happen. I'm like, I'm yelling at a miracle.
I'm disciplining a miracle. I'm feeding a miracle. And and, uh,
it's a it's a it's a special thing.
S1 (20:17):
Hey, let me ask this, and I hope this comes
across okay. And and we can kind of maybe, maybe
finish here and actually get to the song, But, uh, I, um,
in my own life, my, you know, my dad left
when I was when I was two. Uh, I was
an only child. Um. And then never really. We we
were the opposite. Didn't want a kid and had a
(20:37):
surprise kid. And then, you know, I met my. I
met my fourth step mom when I was ten. I mean,
it was like so many. Just a rotating cast or whatever.
And I just didn't know how to be a dad.
Didn't want to be a dad, didn't know how to
be a dad, that kind of thing. And then we
had a kid. And then I remember one time we
were living in Nashville at the time, actually, and my
mom came to visit and she just says, like, kind
(20:59):
of as a, as a, as an aside, like an anecdote.
She said, oh, by the way, today, Elliot, my son is, uh,
exactly the age that you were when your dad left,
and she just meant it. Like we were just walking
around Leiper's Fork, just walking around outside, and she just.
She drops this, like, anchor, like, uh, like she said
something like, hey, they have nice strawberry jelly in there. Like,
(21:22):
just something so simple, and I just, I like, lose it.
And she then my mom is like, whoa, wait, maybe
I shouldn't have said that. Like, what happened? I just
thought you'd find that interesting. And then I realized at
that moment that I had a I had a and
this and this then leads to a question, I promise. Um,
(21:44):
I had a I had a weird relation. I at
that time, I realized I have a complex relationship with
the deficit. In other words, I'm not thankful for the
deficit of not having a father presence. And yet I
kind of am like like in other words, it sheds
a different perspective or gratitude on being a father having
(22:07):
not had a father. And so then when my mom
says that, my first thought is every day hereafter is
a day that I didn't have, like with my own dad.
And so I wonder for you your own. Like do
you feel that complex relationship with the deficit of. Of course,
I would never want to go through 12 years of
(22:29):
not having a kid. Maybe you'd want to have several
more kids. Maybe you'd want your own son. Could be
12 years older if you'd had them at the start
of this period like you were defining yet. Yet. Also,
I'm sure that deficit marks your perspective of being a
dad and and yeah, I don't know. Do you feel
like when I say that, does that sound congruent with
(22:50):
your own.
S2 (22:51):
Yeah. And and I think your, your story, uh, that's
a whole and I'm sure you've shared more of your story,
but I think that that is right. You're saying deficit
from the like that hurt and pain that you had
not not having a father around at the same time? Well, being, uh,
(23:12):
probably one of the hardest things to in your life,
the fact that you had that experience has equipped you for?
For being everything that you. Everything you missed out on.
S1 (23:25):
Yes. Yes. The deficit informs the present. And I'm thankful
for that in those ways.
S2 (23:31):
Yeah. That. Absolutely. I think it it I think every
I guess I can't say everybody I can only speak
for myself. But we're so cognizant of our time because
we wanted this for so long that every single thing
we do is magnified by a thousand. So every like
(23:55):
is probably an overshare, but I think it helps drive
this point home. Theodore still sleeps in bed with us.
He's two. He'll probably be sleeping in bed with us until.
Because we won't have this again. You know what I'm saying?
We don't have four kids. We don't have five kids. Uh,
you know, Carrie and I talked about this because I'm like,
I'm never going to get any sleep with this kid
(24:15):
rolling around, headbutting me. Uh, you know, uh, but I
think you figured out what it is because I think
Carrie and I have a difference of opinion on on this,
but it's like, this might be the only shot that
we have. And I'm going to take all the hugs.
I'm going to take all the memories. I'm going to
take all the kisses, all the laughs, all the all
(24:36):
the wiping of tears. And I'm going to embrace all
of that. And so and then it just makes it
all the more sweeter, uh, all the pain and all the, uh, everything, uh,
that the 12 years of heartache and ups and downs
and never feeling like it's going to happen. And then
and then finally having it happen have really informed the, uh,
(24:59):
you know, uh, we're able to see the other side
of that. And like I said, it magnifies it so
much more. And yeah, I'm just so grateful and thankful
that that we ended up in the space because not
everybody ends up, uh, with this. And I tell anybody listening,
I would just say it's it's hard. Uh, you're you're
(25:19):
seeing you're loved and it it just just don't give up.
And I think that's the most important thing, uh, regardless
of the outcome. Uh, just keep hoping, uh, because God
is going to teach you something, whether it's what you
want or what. Uh, not what you want. You. God
(25:39):
is going to teach you something.
S1 (25:41):
Well, this seems like a great place. We'd love to
have you. Won't you tell us what we're going, what
we're going to listen to, and anything you want to
share about it.
S2 (25:48):
Yeah. Uh, hey, this is, uh, Ben McDonald, uh, founding
member of band Sidewalk Prophets. This is a song that
I started writing when I was at the lowest of
my lows, and it ended up being a song, uh,
that really, uh, has embodied so much of my life experience.
And I hope it means something to you. This, uh,
(26:08):
is Sidewalk Prophets song called I Believe It Now.
S3 (26:17):
I couldn't see it then, but I believe it now.
Just a searching soul. Tired of reaching out. Stuck on
the tracks. Train bearing down. Screaming from my lungs. Who
will save me now. As the reruns of the regrets.
They replay inside my head. Got the devil on my shoulder.
And he's leaving me for dead. Whispers and lies have
(26:38):
brought me here. Flooding my veins with doubt and fear. Oh, I.
I could not see it then. Oh, I. I could
not see. Oh my God. I remember when I cried.
Shook my fists up at the sky. I wondered why
(26:59):
you felt so far from me. Oh, God. It was
in my deepest pain that I heard you call my name.
I heard you say that you That you were right
there with me. I couldn't see it then, but I
(27:20):
believe it now. Trying to hold my head up when
the ground fell out. I felt all alone. Even in
a crowd. Like a sinking stone. Dragging my heart down.
And the weight of the sorrows I carried on my chest.
It kept pulling me under. And I couldn't catch my breath.
Not how I thought my life would go. Didn't know
(27:41):
my heart could sink this low. No, I. I could
not see it then. No, I. I could not see
it on my God. I remember when I cried. So
my fists up at the sky. I wondered why you
fell so far from me. Oh, God. It was in
(28:05):
my deepest pain that I heard you call my name.
I heard you say that you were right there with me.
Love was standing there holding me. But I couldn't see.
(28:28):
That love was always there. He carried me. And now
I believe. Oh my God, I know you heard me
when I cried. Cause you were right there by my side.
(28:49):
I realize that you have never left me. Oh, God.
It was in my deepest pain that I heard you
call my name. I heard you say that you were
right there with me. I couldn't see it you then.
(29:10):
But now I believe I couldn't see it then. But
now I believe I know my faith, now I know
I believe. I know now I believe I see now
(29:37):
I believe.
S4 (29:39):
I could not see now I believe.
S1 (29:47):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
For nearly 25 years now, Ben McDonald has been writing, recording,
releasing and performing songs about hope for so many of
(00:24):
those years. However, in fact, for nearly half that time,
he and his wife Kerri were experiencing the very absence
of it as they tried again and again and again unsuccessfully,
to have children. There were fertility treatments that didn't work.
Years of using their nursery to be for other purposes,
people who said the wrong things, hurtful things, even as
(00:46):
they were trying to be helpful while singing or playing
songs about the need to hold on with his band,
Sidewalk Prophets. Ben says he found it difficult to do
the same in the face of so much confusion and sorrow. Now.
These days, the MacDonald family is a family of three,
with a two year old son named Theodore having just
joined them in 2022. But the shadows that loomed over
(01:09):
so many years are still very much informing the present,
albeit in a different way, one that Ben says makes
him appreciate the gift of parenthood. Having longed for it
like they did on this episode of The Deepest Cut,
I sat down with Ben, a founding member of Sidewalk Prophets,
a band with five number one singles and a win
for Best New Artist at the Dove Awards. To hear
(01:31):
more about their song called I Believe It Now. It's
a song born in the darker moments of waiting, and yet,
like so many other hits in the band's catalog, the
song has been used to provide light to others mired
in their own dark spaces. Ben and I dove into
the deep end of the pool for this conversation, and
we think you'll appreciate the perspective it yields for all
(01:52):
of us, no matter our circumstances. Here's Ben McDonald from
Sidewalk Prophets here on the Deepest Cut. Hello. With me
(02:14):
today is Ben McDonald, Sidewalk Prophets, founding member of the
Dove Award winning band. Welcome to the show, my friend.
How are you?
S2 (02:23):
Well, well, thank you for having me. I'm doing well,
and it's good to see you. We have a long
history of being. I consider you like a bestie. If
we were in the same place for. For enough time,
I agree.
S1 (02:38):
You're, um. You're a good guy. Everyone else I have
on the show here is not. They're not good guys
or girls, but this is the one episode where there's
a good guy. Oh, yeah. Ben, it's great to chat.
I mean, we've been chatting for a long time already,
even before officially hitting record here. But, uh, But welcome
to the deepest cut. You know, obviously we talk about
(02:59):
the most painful or the most difficult song you've ever written.
You've chosen one. We'll get to hear it here in
a few minutes. But before we get into the context
of this song, I'd love to actually like, are you
a sad song guy, by the way? Like, like, would
you say that? Like your artistic. Like your taste. Your
musical taste? Like do you? Because I am like, I'm
(03:20):
all melancholy. And are you that way too?
S2 (03:23):
Oh, absolutely. I think just I want there to be a,
I want emotion to be evoked. So whether you know.
And so I just want that button to be pushed.
So absolutely love, love loves that song.
S1 (03:38):
So yeah. Yeah. My my wife by the way can't relate.
She's like why would you want to feel sad? And
I'm like, wait, why would you just want to not
feel I mean I just like I can't relate at all.
I'm like, what? What do you how do you not
want to feel all the things. And she's like, that
just sounds miserable.
S2 (03:54):
Well, that's actually, I think about that quite often about
sad songs about because a lot of like sad songs.
I think about why would you listen to like a
great sad song you listen to over and over again
and it's kind of like what your wife is saying.
It's kind of like sometimes I don't understand it, but
(04:14):
then it's so good and so well crafted and so
poignant that you just can't help but have that emotion,
you know, over and over and over.
S1 (04:24):
So I say all this as I'm restarting Carrie and
Lowell by Sufjan or something for the 20th time. Yeah, yeah. Hey, um,
so take me into, um, not just for this song,
but part of maybe some of the not stress, but
maybe the tension is this idea of of. We were
(04:47):
even talking about this a little bit before, before we
officially hit record when you're when you're processing the experience,
and maybe we could talk about it through the lens
of this song, but like, how sad do you allow
yourself to get as a songwriter? Like, we were just
talking about you like sad songs, right? Like philosophically, for
you as a songwriter, how sad do you let the
(05:08):
song get or is there no limit? And really, the
limit is what you allow people to hear?
S2 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that's a great question. So I think
the and as far as the artistry of it, you
have to go where you know, where it will take you. Uh,
if that and that sounds that's kind of a weird answer.
And maybe I can think of a better way to
way to say it, but I think you dig in
(05:35):
until you feel it. And so and that so that
may be digging some songs that may be digging deeper
and other songs. Uh, not so much, but it's like
you have to feel it and you have to be
able to, to relate to it. And so I think
that that is for a lot of the songs like this,
you know, songs that have more maybe not necessarily sad,
(05:56):
but sometimes sad, and then also, um, more deeper meanings, uh,
that you have to. Yeah, you have to sit in it.
You know, you have to, to marinate in in what
that feels like to be able to, to, uh, communicate
it well.
S1 (06:14):
Yeah. Yeah. And and just to be clear, for the
sake of the podcast, we're not just just talking about sad.
We're talking about difficult or pain. I mean, there are
a few emotions on this part of the spectrum here.
Today we're the song we're talking about for sidewalk is,
I believe it now, right?
S2 (06:32):
Yes.
S1 (06:33):
And I just want to read out loud a few
of these lyrics, because I'm hoping you could take us
inside if you're comfortable with it. Take us inside the
story behind it. But some of these lines saying, like, um,
stuck on the tracks and the train is bearing down
or screaming from the top of my lungs. Who will
save me, right? A little bit later, you know, you say,
(06:56):
I've got the devil on, uh, you know, I've got
the devil on my shoulder. And he's leaving me for dead, right? Like,
like those are pretty, like, drastic images of just feeling, obviously,
places of desperation and isolation, you know, at wit's end.
Can you tell us what's happening in your life that that, like,
conjures those images and where that comes from?
S2 (07:18):
Yeah. So if you were to ask me when I
was writing these lines, I don't think I knew exactly
what I was going through. I knew I do know
now a lot. I have a lot better idea now
that time has passed. But there was such a heaviness
in life. And I'm actually sitting, uh, I'm in my
studio right now, and this is where I actually wrote those,
(07:41):
those lines. And I remember, uh, because I was, I
was playing piano and I was kind of building a track,
and I was writing out these lyrics, and I was
and my wife, at one point, my wife said, I
can't remember if she yelled up to me, or maybe
we were getting ready for bed at night and she said, hey,
(08:01):
you were singing these lyrics, you know? And it was
really depressing.
S1 (08:07):
Was she worried about you? Like, was she like, do
I need to check on your mental health?
S2 (08:10):
Yeah. Well she she's like, that's really. Yeah. That's really
sad or. Yeah, I think so. And she's like, that's
where I was in my life at that point. And
so it was just, uh, you know, my story and,
and part of the field behind this song is, you know,
my wife and I had 12 years of infertility. And,
(08:34):
you know, we went through we did IVF, we went through, uh,
we went through periods of being told we weren't going
to be able to have a kid to thinking we
might have, and then back to We're not going to
be able to have a kid to to going through
IVF unsuccessfully to, you know, to having uh, going to
(08:54):
healthcare professionals, uh, that were not very professional and, uh,
all the way through the spectrum. And then you're sitting
up here in the middle of all this. The hope
and desire of our heart is God. We just want
a kid so bad. We just want a baby so bad.
And I think the culmination of all of those feelings of, like,
(09:17):
wanting something so bad and not being able to to
get grasp it or get a taste of it. Then
the the narrative in your head kind of starts to turn,
and it kind of can take you to these places
that are a little bit more dark and a little
bit more, a little bit more difficult. And so that's
where those, you know. Yeah, I think you referenced like
(09:39):
the stuck on the tracks train bearing down, as you know,
screaming from my lungs who will save me now? And
it's just, uh. It really is a lament. You know,
it is, uh. What? Like, where will my help come
from in these moments where you feel helpless? And, uh,
that at that point, it was. There was just so
much grieving. Uh, and it's just a weird thing where
(10:02):
the hoping, where hope and grief are kind of in
the same room. And it's kind of. And it's just
kind of there, like, like kind of, uh, tangoing together
in a weird, in a weird, in a weird way.
And it was just such a low, low spot. And
that that's what came out. I could like that's not
(10:23):
I wasn't trying to do anything other than communicate what
was in my heart. And, you know, so I didn't
sit down to say, uh, I didn't sit down and say,
let me write this sad song or this lament. It's
I have to do this because it's what's in me,
you know?
S1 (10:42):
Was was that, um, because it doesn't sound like you
sat down to write, like I'm going to process the
fact that we haven't been able to have a child yet.
Let me write that song. No, it just sounds like
it was almost like I feel a heaviness. Let me
just let the heaviness speak. Is that. Is that what
it was?
S2 (11:00):
Yeah, I yes. And I don't think you think of it, uh,
you know, so consciously. I think you're right. It's not
I think I wasn't thinking about anything other than life
is really hard right now. And I'm just sitting up
in my studio and I'm just, uh. And then all
of a sudden, you know, I'm playing the piano, and
then all of a sudden, the words are coming out
(11:22):
therapeutically for me to process, uh, the hurt and pain
and the struggle of where we were in our lives
at that point.
S1 (11:31):
How long ago was this song, by the way?
S2 (11:34):
So I would guess it's probably, I would say probably 2019. 19. So.
So prior to Covid, prior to pandemic.
S1 (11:43):
Prior to having a baby?
S2 (11:45):
Yeah. Yes.
S1 (11:46):
How did that feel? Writing. Because even what we're quoting
is a verse that leads to more hopeful refrains later
in the song. But that came before the baby. So which,
by the way, we should clarify. You have a you
have a son now, right?
S2 (12:03):
Yeah, I do, yeah I do. Yep. He's a two
year old and his name is Theodore and he's the
he's so much fun.
S1 (12:10):
Take me back to that. Like, did that feel weird
to try to find a hopeful refrain in the midst
of that or or. No.
S2 (12:17):
You just asked. You just asked the the best question because.
And I gotta give credit to. So the song is co-written.
So Dave, uh, Dave Fry, who has been my longtime
partner in crime, um, and we've been doing this for
almost 25 years. Holy cow. Uh, almost 25 years now.
And then, uh, Ellie Holcomb, who is one of the
(12:41):
she is one of the best writers of all time.
That was the first time we ever wrote with Ellie.
I went into this songwriting session and I pushed back
pretty hard because I didn't want to find resolve for
where I was at at the time. I didn't want
to find resolve in the song. I just wanted to lament. And,
(13:05):
you know, and and of course, Ellie and Dave were
in a different space in their, in their, uh, their lives.
And I was just like, I remember asking specifically saying, guys,
do we have to resolve this, you know? And that
was because it was hard for me at that point
to say I that's not where my like that's not
where I'm at at a point of resolution right now.
(13:28):
It's I'm at a point of like, uh, really just
contemplating life. And, you know, as far as my faith goes.
And as far as life goes, I was at this
point where I was just like, let. And you hear
it in the song, you know, it's in the lyrics
of the song, but it's like, you know, raising my
(13:49):
fist up to the sky. And because it's like, God,
where are you in all of this? And that's, that's
I wanted to convey that and, uh. Yeah. So so yeah,
to answer your question. Yeah, it was it was very hard.
And we ended up, uh, I think the song landed
in a space that now having a child and being
(14:09):
on the flip side of on the other side of
that experience, uh, I'm very thankful for where the song
ended up and that I had those two in the
room because I think it embodies a a more complete experience.
S1 (14:23):
At the time. Did you lose the battle and were
you mad if you did lose the battle?
S2 (14:29):
Uh, so the battle for the battle for direction.
S1 (14:32):
Yeah. Like in that room you said I'm fighting for
a lack of resolve, right? Which I think maybe most
of us, at least the two of us here, would
say that there is a problem, maybe within circles of
Christian culture, where you're not allowed to just lament that
it has to have a bow tied, etc. and we
talk about that a lot on this kind of podcast.
But but in that room, like, were you like, did
(14:56):
you lose that battle?
S2 (14:57):
I think it ended up in the space that it
was supposed to end up. But I do think because
I'm pretty, like, I'm pretty stubborn, like when it comes
to like, uh, when I know what I want and
what I feel is best, uh, I don't give up usually. Ever, uh,
you know, and and but this is like, I, we talk.
(15:17):
I mean, in the writers room. The one thing I
appreciate about co-writing is the different perspective. Uh, and so
we talked about a lot about that. I think there
was a compromise, but I wouldn't call it losing. In
the case of this song, I would just say that, uh,
my perspective was was changed. So, uh, now, if left
(15:41):
to my own devices and they're, you know, this song
would be probably completely different. You know, because. But but
I say it ends up in the space that I
think it needed to, you know, where this song should
have ended up? I think it ended up what? Uh,
I'm very thankful and proud. And honestly, the feedback we
get on the song and from people like it achieved
(16:04):
what you would hope a song would achieve. Because people
say because those first couple verses are are so lamentable.
People can put themselves in this where, where they're at
in their life, whether it's, you know, it's for somebody else.
It's not infertility, but it's their job, their sickness, their kids,
(16:25):
their family life or whatever, and they are able to
put themselves in that. They're able to see that and
that and feel that. So I think it's a mission
accomplished as far as that goes, you know? Yeah.
S1 (16:37):
Yeah. Do you remember? And maybe, maybe this isn't true
at all, but was there a time where your relationship
with the song changed because Theodore had been born? Like,
do you remember, like, playing this song for the first
time on the other side of, like, hey, actually, now
I understand the refrain. Now the song does feel complete.
Or was there not like such a moment?
S2 (16:59):
Well, I don't know that it's it's not no kind
of audible God moment, but definitely a, you know, you
at least in my experience, there's been so many times
everything is like a slow build into, uh, like, right,
like it's a infertility. If it lasted a week, it
wouldn't be so bad. But then, uh, it's another week,
(17:23):
and then it's another week, and then it's a year,
and then it's another year, and then it's. Yeah. And
so in the same way, in the same way it
can get you're digging into that trench. It's a slow
to the place where you're out of that trench is
a slow is a slow thing as well. So I
(17:44):
so every day I'm realizing now it's not like just
one moment, but it's a, it's kind of a slow,
you know. Well, I think about this quite often. I
think about Theodore, our boy is a miracle. Like a living,
breathing miracle. And I think about all the 12 years
(18:06):
of the ups and the downs, the tears of wanting
something so badly. And then there will be times now
that he's two. The terrible twos. Uh, um. Where I'm
yelling at him. And I'll find myself pausing and I'll go.
I'm yelling at a miracle. Wow. And because you forget that? Uh.
(18:29):
I remember sitting on the couch downstairs and getting the
news when we found out that were that we were pregnant.
It was. My wife was a teacher at a school.
I was at home. And we had this agreement because
the doctor was going to call. Uh, call. And to
call the teller of the results of our, uh, if
we were pregnant or not. And the we our agreement
(18:53):
was that we would find out together. So Carrie was
at work, and the doctor called twice, and she texted
me and said, hey, the doctor called twice. I think
it might be something important. She came home and we
sat on the couch and on, uh, and I still
have the I still have the voice, um, mail on
my phone, but it's, uh, she played it and it's. Hey, hey, hey,
(19:17):
it's doctor. And, uh, congratulations. You're, you know, you're pregnant.
And then I just started, uh, Carrie is, uh, I'm
ecstatic because I think all that she ever wanted was
she knew how much I wanted to be a dad.
And and so she's like, you're gonna be a dad.
And she's so excited. And then I'm like, I'm crying,
talking about it now. But I was just bawling because
(19:41):
it's it's just this moment you don't think will ever happen.
And when it does happen, it's just. Yeah, it's pretty, uh,
pretty surreal feeling after all that all those years and
all that to be all that saying that the miracle.
It's quick. It's funny how quickly you can forget about
the miracle when you're in the in the throes of
(20:02):
everyday life. Like I'm yelling at my kid and and
those things happen. I'm like, I'm yelling at a miracle.
I'm disciplining a miracle. I'm feeding a miracle. And and, uh,
it's a it's a it's a special thing.
S1 (20:17):
Hey, let me ask this, and I hope this comes
across okay. And and we can kind of maybe, maybe
finish here and actually get to the song, But, uh, I, um,
in my own life, my, you know, my dad left
when I was when I was two. Uh, I was
an only child. Um. And then never really. We we
were the opposite. Didn't want a kid and had a
(20:37):
surprise kid. And then, you know, I met my. I
met my fourth step mom when I was ten. I mean,
it was like so many. Just a rotating cast or whatever.
And I just didn't know how to be a dad.
Didn't want to be a dad, didn't know how to
be a dad, that kind of thing. And then we
had a kid. And then I remember one time we
were living in Nashville at the time, actually, and my
mom came to visit and she just says, like, kind
(20:59):
of as a, as a, as an aside, like an anecdote.
She said, oh, by the way, today, Elliot, my son is, uh,
exactly the age that you were when your dad left,
and she just meant it. Like we were just walking
around Leiper's Fork, just walking around outside, and she just.
She drops this, like, anchor, like, uh, like she said
something like, hey, they have nice strawberry jelly in there. Like,
(21:22):
just something so simple, and I just, I like, lose it.
And she then my mom is like, whoa, wait, maybe
I shouldn't have said that. Like, what happened? I just
thought you'd find that interesting. And then I realized at
that moment that I had a I had a and
this and this then leads to a question, I promise. Um,
(21:44):
I had a I had a weird relation. I at
that time, I realized I have a complex relationship with
the deficit. In other words, I'm not thankful for the
deficit of not having a father presence. And yet I
kind of am like like in other words, it sheds
a different perspective or gratitude on being a father having
(22:07):
not had a father. And so then when my mom
says that, my first thought is every day hereafter is
a day that I didn't have, like with my own dad.
And so I wonder for you your own. Like do
you feel that complex relationship with the deficit of. Of course,
I would never want to go through 12 years of
(22:29):
not having a kid. Maybe you'd want to have several
more kids. Maybe you'd want your own son. Could be
12 years older if you'd had them at the start
of this period like you were defining yet. Yet. Also,
I'm sure that deficit marks your perspective of being a
dad and and yeah, I don't know. Do you feel
like when I say that, does that sound congruent with
(22:50):
your own.
S2 (22:51):
Yeah. And and I think your, your story, uh, that's
a whole and I'm sure you've shared more of your story,
but I think that that is right. You're saying deficit
from the like that hurt and pain that you had
not not having a father around at the same time? Well, being, uh,
(23:12):
probably one of the hardest things to in your life,
the fact that you had that experience has equipped you for?
For being everything that you. Everything you missed out on.
S1 (23:25):
Yes. Yes. The deficit informs the present. And I'm thankful
for that in those ways.
S2 (23:31):
Yeah. That. Absolutely. I think it it I think every
I guess I can't say everybody I can only speak
for myself. But we're so cognizant of our time because
we wanted this for so long that every single thing
we do is magnified by a thousand. So every like
(23:55):
is probably an overshare, but I think it helps drive
this point home. Theodore still sleeps in bed with us.
He's two. He'll probably be sleeping in bed with us until.
Because we won't have this again. You know what I'm saying?
We don't have four kids. We don't have five kids. Uh,
you know, Carrie and I talked about this because I'm like,
I'm never going to get any sleep with this kid
(24:15):
rolling around, headbutting me. Uh, you know, uh, but I
think you figured out what it is because I think
Carrie and I have a difference of opinion on on this,
but it's like, this might be the only shot that
we have. And I'm going to take all the hugs.
I'm going to take all the memories. I'm going to
take all the kisses, all the laughs, all the all
(24:36):
the wiping of tears. And I'm going to embrace all
of that. And so and then it just makes it
all the more sweeter, uh, all the pain and all the, uh, everything, uh,
that the 12 years of heartache and ups and downs
and never feeling like it's going to happen. And then
and then finally having it happen have really informed the, uh,
(24:59):
you know, uh, we're able to see the other side
of that. And like I said, it magnifies it so
much more. And yeah, I'm just so grateful and thankful
that that we ended up in the space because not
everybody ends up, uh, with this. And I tell anybody listening,
I would just say it's it's hard. Uh, you're you're
(25:19):
seeing you're loved and it it just just don't give up.
And I think that's the most important thing, uh, regardless
of the outcome. Uh, just keep hoping, uh, because God
is going to teach you something, whether it's what you
want or what. Uh, not what you want. You. God
(25:39):
is going to teach you something.
S1 (25:41):
Well, this seems like a great place. We'd love to
have you. Won't you tell us what we're going, what
we're going to listen to, and anything you want to
share about it.
S2 (25:48):
Yeah. Uh, hey, this is, uh, Ben McDonald, uh, founding
member of band Sidewalk Prophets. This is a song that
I started writing when I was at the lowest of
my lows, and it ended up being a song, uh,
that really, uh, has embodied so much of my life experience.
And I hope it means something to you. This, uh,
(26:08):
is Sidewalk Prophets song called I Believe It Now.
S3 (26:17):
I couldn't see it then, but I believe it now.
Just a searching soul. Tired of reaching out. Stuck on
the tracks. Train bearing down. Screaming from my lungs. Who
will save me now. As the reruns of the regrets.
They replay inside my head. Got the devil on my shoulder.
And he's leaving me for dead. Whispers and lies have
(26:38):
brought me here. Flooding my veins with doubt and fear. Oh, I.
I could not see it then. Oh, I. I could
not see. Oh my God. I remember when I cried.
Shook my fists up at the sky. I wondered why
(26:59):
you felt so far from me. Oh, God. It was
in my deepest pain that I heard you call my name.
I heard you say that you That you were right
there with me. I couldn't see it then, but I
(27:20):
believe it now. Trying to hold my head up when
the ground fell out. I felt all alone. Even in
a crowd. Like a sinking stone. Dragging my heart down.
And the weight of the sorrows I carried on my chest.
It kept pulling me under. And I couldn't catch my breath.
Not how I thought my life would go. Didn't know
(27:41):
my heart could sink this low. No, I. I could
not see it then. No, I. I could not see
it on my God. I remember when I cried. So
my fists up at the sky. I wondered why you
fell so far from me. Oh, God. It was in
(28:05):
my deepest pain that I heard you call my name.
I heard you say that you were right there with me.
Love was standing there holding me. But I couldn't see.
(28:28):
That love was always there. He carried me. And now
I believe. Oh my God, I know you heard me
when I cried. Cause you were right there by my side.
(28:49):
I realize that you have never left me. Oh, God.
It was in my deepest pain that I heard you
call my name. I heard you say that you were
right there with me. I couldn't see it you then.
(29:10):
But now I believe I couldn't see it then. But
now I believe I know my faith, now I know
I believe. I know now I believe I see now
(29:37):
I believe.
S4 (29:39):
I could not see now I believe.
S1 (29:47):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
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