June 20, 2025 • 34 mins
In this deeply honest episode of The Deepest Cut, singer-songwriter Taylor Leonhardt opens up about a faith crisis that shaped her hauntingly beautiful song, Lights Gone Out. Taylor shares how a friend’s bold advice to “murder someone in the chorus” helped her embrace vulnerability and truth in her songwriting. From navigating darkness to finding creative clarity, this conversation explores the power of authenticity in art. Join us as Taylor reflects on pain, growth, and the courage it takes to “go there.”
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S1 (00:01):
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
It's not every day that a mentor will tell you to, quote,
murder someone, but that's exactly what Taylor Leonhart needed to
(00:25):
hear in the moment. It was a few years ago
now that Taylor found herself descending into a dark place,
a faith crisis spurred on by the brokenness of close
friends and spiritual pillars. As stories and suffering were shared,
Taylor says she found herself in a space that she
describes with the title of her beautiful song, Lights Gone Out.
(00:46):
It details the confusion and the questions that arrived in
that season. Yet, as Taylor explained to me on this
episode of The Deepest Cut, her tendency to want to
provide a ray of hope to wrap things up nicely
with a bow at times was actually keeping the song
from finding its greatest impact. Now, that's not to say
that hope isn't necessary, but in this instance, Taylor needed
(01:08):
to tell the truth, and it was a close friend
who encouraged her to be more vulnerable to go there. Quote.
To murder someone in the chorus and not shy away
from the pain if that's where the truth is found. Now,
if that sounds dark, perhaps it is. But her song
Lights Gone Out resonates because of the connective tissue it
(01:28):
generates by actually going where she did. Now, if you're
familiar with Taylor Leonhardt already, you know that Light's Gone
Out is just one of so many meaningful songs in
her catalog, whether as a solo artist or one half
of mission House with Jess Rae, or even as one
quarter of Paper Horses with Jess, Sandra McCracken and Leslie Jordan.
(01:49):
She has plenty of new music on the way, but
on this episode, Taylor was kind enough to look back
at a painful period in which she learned to tell
the truth. To quote, murder appropriately, if you will. Here's
our conversation with Taylor Leonhart on the Deepest Cut. Hello,
(02:20):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner.
I'm your host. I'm here with Taylor Leonhart. Taylor, you
you not only have your own solo stuff, also mission
House with Jess Rae and also writing for other people, too.
Is that right? I'm already talking to you, but you
haven't even said hello yet, so I'll let you do
that first.
S2 (02:38):
Well, hey, how's it going? Good to see you, Matt.
And good to to be with all you guys who
are listening in. Yes, I am in. I am one
half of mission House with Jess Rae. And then one
one fourth of paper horses with Jess and our and
our friends Sandra McCracken and Leslie Jordan and, uh, I
(03:01):
pretty much am addicted to collaborating with my friends. So
people just tease me because they're like, oh, I see
your name on all this. It's because I just love
when people are like, hey, let's write songs and make
some music together. I'm like, that sounds great to me.
So I also make music with um, groups like The
Porter's Gate, probably most frequently, and then, um, like anchor
(03:23):
hymns and some stuff like that I've done recently, which
I've really loved. And yeah, sometimes I get to write
songs for other people too, that I never sing. And, uh,
but but it's fun.
S1 (03:35):
We want to dive into the subject matter material. Your
song light's gone out, but I just want to ask
you this. With so many different outlets for where you
could go with your songwriting, your song craft, how do
you know when to save it for hey, this is me.
This is me alone. I'm going to stash this away
for my next solo release.
S2 (03:55):
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I would say when
I'm writing by myself, I mean sometimes the most obvious
answer is a lot of the songs I write completely
alone end up being tailored songs. So I, I don't
co-write those as often a lot. Most of those are
are I'm writing now. There are some exceptions, but a
(04:17):
lot of those I've just written alone, or at least
started most of it alone. And I kind of just
know in the beginning this feels like one of my songs.
But I did have I did have an example with
I was at a mission house, right, with Jess, and
we were with two other friends writing, like wanting to
get at least a couple of mission House songs written.
(04:38):
And I did bring an idea in, and I remember
it wasn't that they didn't like it, it was just
that it didn't catch like I brought the idea to
the co-write as like a mission house idea. And I
could see, you know, I said, what about this? This
was something I was starting. But then it was kind
of that moment in a co-write where a lot of
(04:58):
people were like saying, what about this or this? And my,
my idea in that moment didn't get, you know, it
just wasn't the thing that we worked on. And so
I really liked it. So I was like, well, I'm
gonna I think I'm just going to go home and
work on that idea some more. And that became a
song that actually will be on my next upcoming release.
(05:20):
And so it was kind of a sweet moment of like,
oh yeah, you. That was that one was for you.
And you did. I wasn't sure at first. And then
it kind of became so sometimes, you know, and sometimes
it takes a little while to like for it to
reveal which, like Jess always calls them buckets. Like which
bucket does this go in? Which which, like, thing is this, um,
(05:43):
does this want to live in? And yeah, I'm trying
to get I think the more I do all of
those projects, the more I it becomes a little more
clear to me, to all of us and the paper
horses stuff we have decided just to write all those
songs together too, so that that kind of makes it easy.
So they're all taking on their their own personas, their own.
(06:07):
I like cultures in a way.
S1 (06:11):
The whole premise of the podcast here is talking about,
you know, difficult circumstances, the way that we can potentially
use our creativity to move through those spaces, to understand
those spaces, to connect with others in those spaces. Lights
Gone Out has some pretty obvious low moments. You just
read the lyrics and you're like, okay, whoever wrote this
(06:33):
was in a dark space. Can you, can you take
us behind the context of what informed the lyrics to
that song, where that came from?
S2 (06:41):
Yeah. So this song now is has been around for
a while. It's lived with me for a while and, um,
let's see, it came out in 2019 I think is
when I released it, but I'm pretty sure that I
wrote it in 2017, and I was living in North
Carolina at the time. I remember the day that I
(07:05):
wrote it, I got a phone call from a friend,
a pretty good friend of mine. It was just one
of those those phone calls that you kind of you
never want to get. It's like when you're when someone
you love calls you with, like, terrible news. Um, and
in this case, I just kind of found out that
that her marriage was ending and kind of her family
(07:26):
had sort of imploded. And, um, these were just people
that were so dear to me and someone who felt like,
feels like family to me. And so I think it
just was one of those moments in my life where
it was like, oh, I've been living in this illusion,
and I and I feel like the moment kind of
(07:48):
revealed the illusion to me. Like. And the illusion was
something like if I, you know, as, as someone who
as a person of faith, as someone who has, you know,
been a Christian since I was in high school, um,
I've kind of been unknowingly living this thing where I
(08:09):
feel like I made a deal with God, and the
deal is like, I'll do this. I'll do X, Y,
and Z, and I'll be I'll be a good kid.
And then you're gonna write like you're going to make
things work out for me and the people I love
and and the person like my friend who called me
would be like an example of, like, you know, they're
(08:30):
the family who's, like, leading the things at church and
the community and all this stuff. They're the people that everybody.
You look at them like you want to be just
like them kind of thing. And so I, I feel
like it was not only this personal moment of man,
this hurts me because of of what my friend is
(08:53):
going through, but also this moment where I just felt
like my, my faith kind of got shaken down to
the core of, like this, this really like God. God
has kind of broken his this deal that I feel
like I made with him. And if if this could
happen to them, like it would happen to me. What
(09:14):
can I even count on? I feel like in an
afternoon I just, you know, got sent into this deep
questioning space. And I and I think really not that
I had never walked through a hard thing before, but
that was the most I ever felt like. I remember I,
(09:34):
I remember just kind of weeping with my friend on
the phone at the shock of it and the pain
of it, and then hanging up the phone and going like, I,
I don't know what, I don't really know what to
say or what to what to do, like how to
move through here. Yeah. And I grabbed like, my guitar
(09:54):
and started writing this song and I, you know, I
think that's maybe something when people imagine songwriters that were
there always doing that. Like in in our lowest moments,
we're reaching for the guitar or going to the piano,
and that is not my normal thing. Like I would say,
(10:14):
mostly I'm writing way out of the moment, looking back
into a moment, but, um, like that. But in this case,
I did. And I remember just, I think starting with
that first verse like, Lord. Lord, I pray your will
be done on earth as it is in heaven. But
today it's hard. That's hard to believe in. Kind of
(10:37):
like I just felt like I'm I'm mad and sad
and like, I just want to tell you that this
is not this doesn't feel okay.
S1 (10:46):
Did it all come pouring out in that moment? How
long did the like from the version we hear?
S2 (10:52):
Yeah, it took a while to get to the version here,
I think. I'm pretty sure. I had verse one, I
had verse two, I had written the verses and man
I wish I could remember. It would be great if
I could remember what the original chorus was, but maybe
(11:13):
it maybe it's good that I don't remember what it was,
but I, I had a chorus that. So the chorus
of the song is, what do I do now that
all the lights gone out? And it was something that's
pretty bleak, you know, or like, it's kind of like that's,
that's not your typical okay, this is hard, but we'll
(11:34):
hang on and I, I think my original chorus that
I had was something like that. It was something like,
like I sort of allowed some hope to kind of
come in because I thought, well, surely, like, that's what.
S1 (11:48):
You're supposed to have.
S2 (11:49):
Yeah, I'm supposed to write like I'm supposed to get
to the part, supposed to get to the second half
of the psalm, I guess, where I'm just like, but
I will trust in God, and he's got it. And,
you know, and and so I had some version of
the song like that, and I was like, okay, here
we go. And I sent it to a friend. I
sent it to Andy Squires, who a lot of listeners
(12:11):
will know, um, from Andy's music. And, uh, he also
is just a profound writer and, um, writes Instagram essays,
has published a few sort of, uh, kind of coffee
table books, but these really great essays on God and
life and grief and all those things. And I always
(12:31):
feel like I always kind of think of Andy as
a king of sadness. So at this point, this was
the saddest song I'd ever written, and it felt like
this is in Andy's territory. And I knew enough as
a songwriter at this point to know, I think I
need to get someone else's perspective on this, Is and
(12:54):
I and I and because I think I wasn't looking
at it like, man, this is pretty good. I'm I'm
all done. Let's go to the studio. I was it
was a pretty raw song. I remember not having that
feeling that you want as a writer that, oh, it's good, like,
this is good and done. I was like, there's something
kind of not right with it. And so I sent
(13:15):
it off to Andy and he answered me and in
a great way, you know, like, I think every songwriter
needs a friend who will, like, give them actual honest feedback. Um,
I guess you got to think about if that's what
you really want, but I think it's really about I
did want that, and it was really valuable because he
(13:36):
kind of said he was. He was very he wasn't
he didn't cut it down, but he just said, these
verses are really something and really beautiful. And I feel
like when it gets to the chorus, which I mentioned,
is was kind of this, like it takes a turn
into this kind of hopeful posture. When you get to
the course, it's just kind of like, ah, I don't know,
(14:00):
like it's kind of whatever. It loses the thing for me.
And he goes, I think you can write a better
course than that. And he's like, and I kind of
want you to write a chorus where you, Andy, use
the words I want to, I want you to write
a chorus where you murder someone, meaning just like don't
be afraid to like, let to really like let something
(14:21):
kind of die in that chorus. And don't be afraid
of that. And so I was like, okay, I took it.
So I mean, I have so much respect for him
that I, I remember feeling like, oh, like not less
hurt that he just didn't like the chorus I have
and more kind of like, I want to write a
chorus that he'll think is a great chord that the
(14:43):
King of Sadness says is a great chorus. So I
was like, I think he's right.
S1 (14:48):
When Andy says to you, murder something here, right? And
obviously that's a that's a funny way. But I think
everyone gets what you're saying. How comfortable are you with that?
Like when he says that, are you like, oh yeah,
that's totally great with me. And I'm going to go there.
Or are you like, am I allowed? Is that something
(15:08):
either I can do or I'm allowed to do? Like,
I guess I just wondered like what your like, sort
of emotional, impulsive responses when you hear or read that.
S2 (15:18):
I think it was probably, you know, I would I
think that that there was a dual response to that
where part of me is like, well, I've never done
that before. Is that okay? Is that like, you know,
I'm this artist writing in a pretty Christian space. The
record that I had just released was called Riverhouse, and
(15:41):
a lot of those songs. Um, not that there isn't
pain in them, but they're, you know, there there are
a lot there are a lot of songs kind of
about like, okay, I think they're pretty encouraging. comforting, and
in this space of like, here's who, here's who God
is and and, um, how God is kind of showing
(16:02):
up in my life. And so this in this moment,
I was uncomfortable in the sense that that part of
me that was like, well, I've never done that before.
I've never really talked much about how God is not
showing up. You know how he is maybe feeling quite
(16:22):
absent in this moment. And I'm pretty angry about that.
And and I've never really actually voiced anger to God
before or profound disappointment. And, you know, I've been the
person at church leading the song that's like, oh, you
never let me down, you know, singing that chorus over
and over again. So it's like, am I? Yeah. I
(16:45):
think there was a big part of me that was like,
am I allowed to do that? And then I would
say there was another part of me the artist, the
the part of me that just deeply, deeply that I
think is in all of us, the part that that
really wants to tell it like it is and be
honest and wants an answer to these questions that I have.
(17:09):
I think that part when Andy said, I wonder what
would happen if he murdered someone, you know, his his
very Andy Squyres metaphor for just like, don't tie it
up in a bow, which is what I had done.
Leave the thing like in pieces. And I thought, yeah,
I kind of want to do that. I'm not sure
(17:32):
I have done it before. I'm not even totally sure
I know how, but I really want to do that.
And I think I was also bolstered by him saying,
I know that you can, I know you can, and
I wish you and I wish you would let yourself
do that. It's kind of how I heard. So it
was this almost very pastoral. You know, he he has
(17:56):
mentored me through a lot of things. And I think
that's what it felt like in that moment was almost like, man,
I can see where where you could go if you
would just for yourself up to do that and move
into a more honest place in this song.
S1 (18:12):
And this maybe gets a little bit more, you know,
philosophical or into the, the psyche of things. But clearly,
if you grew up in the church, you're very familiar
with the Psalms. We're all very familiar with the fact
of like, oh yeah, here are 150 entries, if you will.
I mean, song in song form or poetic form or whatever.
But here are all these. Here's the here's the full
(18:33):
spectrum of human emotion, and we canonize it and we
memorize it and we reference it and we, you know,
we think, oh, we're supposed to hide this scripture in
our heart. And those scriptures are, where are you, God? God,
why are you unfaithful to me? I've been faithful to
you like some of the very things that you're like,
can I even go? There are things that we're supposed
(18:53):
to treasure and memorize and reference and live by. And
yet there's this feeling of, like you said, there's this
reticence or even this, like I needed permission to even
go there. Like, when it comes to Christians making films, music, books,
whatever it is, there is this temptation to have to
(19:14):
put the bow on it. Why do you think there's
that that dichotomy? I mean, at least for you. Like what?
Like what is that about?
S2 (19:21):
Yeah. Well, part of it is, I mean, I think
two things come to mind. One thing is culturally, um,
and I think that and I'm using air quotes, like,
I think Christian music because I'm not sure how I
even feel about that as a, as a genre label,
(19:43):
but I think music in that space often suffers from
this need to like for every song to tell the
entire story. Like we can't leave any parts out. So
it's like your three minute song has to arrive at
this place of resurrection every single time. And we're very uncomfortable,
kind of just only telling parts of stories. And I
(20:07):
don't know if that's a fear of people won't get it. People.
People will. I don't want to leave them in this
whatever place when they're listening. And it's like, I think,
I don't know. Part of that is like not trusting
our listeners in a sense to like that they're actually
pretty smart, sophisticated folks who can handle just a part
(20:30):
of the story. I don't know what that is. Or
maybe it's our just own discomfort of just like, uh,
but but yeah, you look at the Psalm and there
are several Psalms I know that. Don't even get to that.
I mean, a lot of them have the, you know,
they have some stanza where they turn to this trust
and hope, but some of them stay. And then I
(20:52):
just think, like, uh, part of it is looking. We
look we often look at we're too zoomed in to
one song, I'm too zoomed into one song, and I
need it to say everything I think and feel and
believe versus like, zooming out and being like, this song
(21:12):
is one chapter of of a of the book I'm writing.
This is just one part of the story that I'm telling,
and actually I would serve the whole story better to
just tell that one part really faithfully. And by faithfully,
I don't mean with a lot of bravado or confident,
(21:33):
you know, like whatever it is, but faithfully in the
sense of like telling it really truthfully and that that
would actually serve the whole thing better. And I'm just thinking, like,
even the Bible itself would feel kind of Ruined in
a sense of like if in the sadder kind of parts.
(21:53):
You think about the Gospels and the parts of Jesus,
like if it was full of tension, if the entire
time he was like, but it's it's all good. Like
it's gonna, you know, I think that even, even Jesus
himself lets us sit in that and like, you know,
even when he would give his disciples, like he would,
(22:15):
he would sometimes be like, you know, he would give
them these kind of mysterious. The temple will be destroyed
but rebuilt in three days. Like, he was kind of
giving them hints that things were going, that resurrection was coming.
But he really doesn't explain things for them often and
lets them sit in those moments. And I just think, man,
(22:38):
it's okay as a writer to tell a story that
is just, you know, your version of Peter denying Christ.
You don't have to get to the you don't have to, like,
get to the forgiveness part where it gets all, but
you can save that for a different song. And I
think this song to to write this song faithfully and
(23:02):
truthfully and like I knew probably like, oh, I need
to let this chorus be something that really lets me
and lets anyone who would listen to it express some
real like grief and anguish, and that is actually going to.
(23:24):
And in doing that, you know, I think when I
sat back at my guitar after Andy kind of sent
me out to rewrite it, I, I did feel commissioned,
I guess, in a sense. And when I sat back
with my guitar, I remember eventually kind of singing that
line because I thought, well, what do I want to say?
And I was like, I think the truth is, I
(23:45):
don't know what, I don't know what to do. And
then I thought, well, that that feels kind of like
what I want to say to.
S1 (23:52):
The what do I do now?
S2 (23:54):
What do I do now? Like that now that this.
Now that the illusion has been shattered. Now that this
thing has happened. Now that I can no longer count
on you to behave in the way that I thought
you were going to behave, then what? What's true now?
Because it feels I don't see. I can't see anything.
(24:16):
And singing that felt really like, uh, it just it
felt right in a sense that it felt really true.
And it and I think the, the surprise to me
in that moment was that and I think this is
true a lot in my life that when I can
(24:37):
and I'm thinking about in prayer, but I'm also just
thinking about across the table from someone when I can
really be honest and be like, this is actually What
it is. I don't feel less connected with the person
across the table, whether that's my friend or God. I
(24:58):
actually feel more connected. Like I actually feel this. Um,
you know, even if I'm not hearing anything back, I
think just the way, just the just the sort of
rightness that you feel in telling the truth and kind
of like, oh, that's what it is. That's actually the thing, um,
(25:21):
that oftentimes I feel like there is this, this sense
of the person on the other end kind of leaning
back into you, you know, um, and yeah, I think
that was true. That was true of that moment for me.
S1 (25:39):
Yeah. It's connective tissue in that way. Let me ask you,
this was, uh, yes or no. This song was a
turning point for you to then be able to tell
the full truth as an artist going forward.
S2 (25:53):
Yes, I think that I realized that in doing, in
writing this song and not just writing it, I mean,
there it certainly had a healing component. Just writing it,
just having it be something I could sing. And then, uh,
(26:14):
who I think I think in Bono's memoir, uh, which
is wonderful, called surrender, he talks about how songs aren't
really finished until you share them. He's like a U2
song isn't really a song until we play it and people,
you know, hear it and that and like in that sense,
(26:35):
then it kind of is a complete thing. So, you know, I,
I think when I started singing this song, um, And,
you know, I'd sing it at a show. I feel
like it really changed. Like it changed the nature of
(26:57):
I could feel people connecting to that song even in
the in the moment of singing it. Um, but then
this thing started happening where that really hadn't. I hadn't
happened to me too much before that. But people would come.
People would, would come to talk to me at the
end and want to talk about this song and would
(27:18):
just share some sort of like, oh, I needed that.
Like I needed the permission. Like you, I didn't have
that permission. I haven't been giving myself that and I
really needed it. And so thank, you know, something like
that or um, yeah. I just think to your point,
(27:39):
why do we not why are these songs hard to write?
It's like not just a songwriting issue, but it's like
also because I think as people, we just don't give
ourselves space to grieve properly, you know? And I think
I was just meeting all these people that had not
really grieved something and were feeling. A three minute, you know,
(28:09):
glimpse into like, oh, I might I think, you know,
this invitation of this might, I need to this is
something I do need to sit with. And so then
I just thought, man, I would rather write songs like that.
I'd rather write songs that give me space and give
other people space to just sit with things that are
(28:32):
hard to sit with. Like, I feel like I'm first
in line of avoiding pain. I mean, I am I'm like,
that is that is a hard thing for me to do. And,
and I just, I want to look away from discomfort.
I don't want to sit with tough emotions. You know,
I have all. Everything in my nervous system is telling
(28:56):
me when something gets difficult. It's like I'm looking for
the eject button out of this. Let me watch a
funny video. Let me just run around the block. Anything
to not deal with this. So I think music in
a sense, has been really important for me to write
these songs as just like also a way to kind
(29:17):
of teach myself how to like, you know, music, even
other so many other people's music has been that for me.
It's kind of like, here's a safe way to, like,
go somewhere that maybe you weren't willing to go on
your own or you couldn't, or you just needed a friend. And, uh, yeah.
(29:40):
And I think it gave me a writing this kind
of song Some more has given me the thing I
want to in music, which is like, I want, uh, I,
you know, I want to connect with people, like, in
a real way.
S1 (29:59):
Well, you know, certainly the song works on that level,
you know, and I'm glad that other people have responded
to you in that way. Um, this feels like a
great time to play the song. So I'd love to
have you take us in it.
S2 (30:12):
Yes. Well, it's been a joy to talk about this song.
That means a lot to me. And, uh, this is
lights gone out.
S3 (30:24):
Lord, I pray your will be done. On earth as
it is in heaven. Today it's hard to believe. When
hell has never come quite so close. I see the
whites of his eyes I feel the breaking of every bone.
(30:53):
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
How many times have I promised to walk through the
smoke and the fire with you? That was long before
(31:17):
I ever knew the flame. Now not this. Not the
thing that I cannot fix. The house is burning and
I'm helpless. I'm helpless. And what do I do? Now.
(31:44):
Let all this go now. And what do I do now?
That all this gloom as. I. What will we find
(32:26):
at the bottom of this bitter drink? This awful cup.
When all the pain's been swallowed up. Will it make
us different? Will we say with confidence that the love
(32:48):
was worth the risk? That the end is joy. Joy.
And what do I do now? And all that I go. And. Oh,
(33:24):
do I you now. The holy light. Go. And. Oh,
what do I do now? That all the guys I.
(33:52):
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
S1 (34:23):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
Welcome to the Deepest Cut, a podcast about the movement
from painful experiences to meaningful music. I'm your host, Matt Conner.
It's not every day that a mentor will tell you to, quote,
murder someone, but that's exactly what Taylor Leonhart needed to
(00:25):
hear in the moment. It was a few years ago
now that Taylor found herself descending into a dark place,
a faith crisis spurred on by the brokenness of close
friends and spiritual pillars. As stories and suffering were shared,
Taylor says she found herself in a space that she
describes with the title of her beautiful song, Lights Gone Out.
(00:46):
It details the confusion and the questions that arrived in
that season. Yet, as Taylor explained to me on this
episode of The Deepest Cut, her tendency to want to
provide a ray of hope to wrap things up nicely
with a bow at times was actually keeping the song
from finding its greatest impact. Now, that's not to say
that hope isn't necessary, but in this instance, Taylor needed
(01:08):
to tell the truth, and it was a close friend
who encouraged her to be more vulnerable to go there. Quote.
To murder someone in the chorus and not shy away
from the pain if that's where the truth is found. Now,
if that sounds dark, perhaps it is. But her song
Lights Gone Out resonates because of the connective tissue it
(01:28):
generates by actually going where she did. Now, if you're
familiar with Taylor Leonhardt already, you know that Light's Gone
Out is just one of so many meaningful songs in
her catalog, whether as a solo artist or one half
of mission House with Jess Rae, or even as one
quarter of Paper Horses with Jess, Sandra McCracken and Leslie Jordan.
(01:49):
She has plenty of new music on the way, but
on this episode, Taylor was kind enough to look back
at a painful period in which she learned to tell
the truth. To quote, murder appropriately, if you will. Here's
our conversation with Taylor Leonhart on the Deepest Cut. Hello,
(02:20):
and welcome to the Deepest Cut. My name is Matt Conner.
I'm your host. I'm here with Taylor Leonhart. Taylor, you
you not only have your own solo stuff, also mission
House with Jess Rae and also writing for other people, too.
Is that right? I'm already talking to you, but you
haven't even said hello yet, so I'll let you do
that first.
S2 (02:38):
Well, hey, how's it going? Good to see you, Matt.
And good to to be with all you guys who
are listening in. Yes, I am in. I am one
half of mission House with Jess Rae. And then one
one fourth of paper horses with Jess and our and
our friends Sandra McCracken and Leslie Jordan and, uh, I
(03:01):
pretty much am addicted to collaborating with my friends. So
people just tease me because they're like, oh, I see
your name on all this. It's because I just love
when people are like, hey, let's write songs and make
some music together. I'm like, that sounds great to me.
So I also make music with um, groups like The
Porter's Gate, probably most frequently, and then, um, like anchor
(03:23):
hymns and some stuff like that I've done recently, which
I've really loved. And yeah, sometimes I get to write
songs for other people too, that I never sing. And, uh,
but but it's fun.
S1 (03:35):
We want to dive into the subject matter material. Your
song light's gone out, but I just want to ask
you this. With so many different outlets for where you
could go with your songwriting, your song craft, how do
you know when to save it for hey, this is me.
This is me alone. I'm going to stash this away
for my next solo release.
S2 (03:55):
Yeah, that's a great question. Well, I would say when
I'm writing by myself, I mean sometimes the most obvious
answer is a lot of the songs I write completely
alone end up being tailored songs. So I, I don't
co-write those as often a lot. Most of those are
are I'm writing now. There are some exceptions, but a
(04:17):
lot of those I've just written alone, or at least
started most of it alone. And I kind of just
know in the beginning this feels like one of my songs.
But I did have I did have an example with
I was at a mission house, right, with Jess, and
we were with two other friends writing, like wanting to
get at least a couple of mission House songs written.
(04:38):
And I did bring an idea in, and I remember
it wasn't that they didn't like it, it was just
that it didn't catch like I brought the idea to
the co-write as like a mission house idea. And I
could see, you know, I said, what about this? This
was something I was starting. But then it was kind
of that moment in a co-write where a lot of
(04:58):
people were like saying, what about this or this? And my,
my idea in that moment didn't get, you know, it
just wasn't the thing that we worked on. And so
I really liked it. So I was like, well, I'm
gonna I think I'm just going to go home and
work on that idea some more. And that became a
song that actually will be on my next upcoming release.
(05:20):
And so it was kind of a sweet moment of like,
oh yeah, you. That was that one was for you.
And you did. I wasn't sure at first. And then
it kind of became so sometimes, you know, and sometimes
it takes a little while to like for it to
reveal which, like Jess always calls them buckets. Like which
bucket does this go in? Which which, like, thing is this, um,
(05:43):
does this want to live in? And yeah, I'm trying
to get I think the more I do all of
those projects, the more I it becomes a little more
clear to me, to all of us and the paper
horses stuff we have decided just to write all those
songs together too, so that that kind of makes it easy.
So they're all taking on their their own personas, their own.
(06:07):
I like cultures in a way.
S1 (06:11):
The whole premise of the podcast here is talking about,
you know, difficult circumstances, the way that we can potentially
use our creativity to move through those spaces, to understand
those spaces, to connect with others in those spaces. Lights
Gone Out has some pretty obvious low moments. You just
read the lyrics and you're like, okay, whoever wrote this
(06:33):
was in a dark space. Can you, can you take
us behind the context of what informed the lyrics to
that song, where that came from?
S2 (06:41):
Yeah. So this song now is has been around for
a while. It's lived with me for a while and, um,
let's see, it came out in 2019 I think is
when I released it, but I'm pretty sure that I
wrote it in 2017, and I was living in North
Carolina at the time. I remember the day that I
(07:05):
wrote it, I got a phone call from a friend,
a pretty good friend of mine. It was just one
of those those phone calls that you kind of you
never want to get. It's like when you're when someone
you love calls you with, like, terrible news. Um, and
in this case, I just kind of found out that
that her marriage was ending and kind of her family
(07:26):
had sort of imploded. And, um, these were just people
that were so dear to me and someone who felt like,
feels like family to me. And so I think it
just was one of those moments in my life where
it was like, oh, I've been living in this illusion,
and I and I feel like the moment kind of
(07:48):
revealed the illusion to me. Like. And the illusion was
something like if I, you know, as, as someone who
as a person of faith, as someone who has, you know,
been a Christian since I was in high school, um,
I've kind of been unknowingly living this thing where I
(08:09):
feel like I made a deal with God, and the
deal is like, I'll do this. I'll do X, Y,
and Z, and I'll be I'll be a good kid.
And then you're gonna write like you're going to make
things work out for me and the people I love
and and the person like my friend who called me
would be like an example of, like, you know, they're
(08:30):
the family who's, like, leading the things at church and
the community and all this stuff. They're the people that everybody.
You look at them like you want to be just
like them kind of thing. And so I, I feel
like it was not only this personal moment of man,
this hurts me because of of what my friend is
(08:53):
going through, but also this moment where I just felt
like my, my faith kind of got shaken down to
the core of, like this, this really like God. God
has kind of broken his this deal that I feel
like I made with him. And if if this could
happen to them, like it would happen to me. What
(09:14):
can I even count on? I feel like in an
afternoon I just, you know, got sent into this deep
questioning space. And I and I think really not that
I had never walked through a hard thing before, but
that was the most I ever felt like. I remember I,
(09:34):
I remember just kind of weeping with my friend on
the phone at the shock of it and the pain
of it, and then hanging up the phone and going like, I,
I don't know what, I don't really know what to
say or what to what to do, like how to
move through here. Yeah. And I grabbed like, my guitar
(09:54):
and started writing this song and I, you know, I
think that's maybe something when people imagine songwriters that were
there always doing that. Like in in our lowest moments,
we're reaching for the guitar or going to the piano,
and that is not my normal thing. Like I would say,
(10:14):
mostly I'm writing way out of the moment, looking back
into a moment, but, um, like that. But in this case,
I did. And I remember just, I think starting with
that first verse like, Lord. Lord, I pray your will
be done on earth as it is in heaven. But
today it's hard. That's hard to believe in. Kind of
(10:37):
like I just felt like I'm I'm mad and sad
and like, I just want to tell you that this
is not this doesn't feel okay.
S1 (10:46):
Did it all come pouring out in that moment? How
long did the like from the version we hear?
S2 (10:52):
Yeah, it took a while to get to the version here,
I think. I'm pretty sure. I had verse one, I
had verse two, I had written the verses and man
I wish I could remember. It would be great if
I could remember what the original chorus was, but maybe
(11:13):
it maybe it's good that I don't remember what it was,
but I, I had a chorus that. So the chorus
of the song is, what do I do now that
all the lights gone out? And it was something that's
pretty bleak, you know, or like, it's kind of like that's,
that's not your typical okay, this is hard, but we'll
(11:34):
hang on and I, I think my original chorus that
I had was something like that. It was something like,
like I sort of allowed some hope to kind of
come in because I thought, well, surely, like, that's what.
S1 (11:48):
You're supposed to have.
S2 (11:49):
Yeah, I'm supposed to write like I'm supposed to get
to the part, supposed to get to the second half
of the psalm, I guess, where I'm just like, but
I will trust in God, and he's got it. And,
you know, and and so I had some version of
the song like that, and I was like, okay, here
we go. And I sent it to a friend. I
sent it to Andy Squires, who a lot of listeners
(12:11):
will know, um, from Andy's music. And, uh, he also
is just a profound writer and, um, writes Instagram essays,
has published a few sort of, uh, kind of coffee
table books, but these really great essays on God and
life and grief and all those things. And I always
(12:31):
feel like I always kind of think of Andy as
a king of sadness. So at this point, this was
the saddest song I'd ever written, and it felt like
this is in Andy's territory. And I knew enough as
a songwriter at this point to know, I think I
need to get someone else's perspective on this, Is and
(12:54):
I and I and because I think I wasn't looking
at it like, man, this is pretty good. I'm I'm
all done. Let's go to the studio. I was it
was a pretty raw song. I remember not having that
feeling that you want as a writer that, oh, it's good, like,
this is good and done. I was like, there's something
kind of not right with it. And so I sent
(13:15):
it off to Andy and he answered me and in
a great way, you know, like, I think every songwriter
needs a friend who will, like, give them actual honest feedback. Um,
I guess you got to think about if that's what
you really want, but I think it's really about I
did want that, and it was really valuable because he
(13:36):
kind of said he was. He was very he wasn't
he didn't cut it down, but he just said, these
verses are really something and really beautiful. And I feel
like when it gets to the chorus, which I mentioned,
is was kind of this, like it takes a turn
into this kind of hopeful posture. When you get to
the course, it's just kind of like, ah, I don't know,
(14:00):
like it's kind of whatever. It loses the thing for me.
And he goes, I think you can write a better
course than that. And he's like, and I kind of
want you to write a chorus where you, Andy, use
the words I want to, I want you to write
a chorus where you murder someone, meaning just like don't
be afraid to like, let to really like let something
(14:21):
kind of die in that chorus. And don't be afraid
of that. And so I was like, okay, I took it.
So I mean, I have so much respect for him
that I, I remember feeling like, oh, like not less
hurt that he just didn't like the chorus I have
and more kind of like, I want to write a
chorus that he'll think is a great chord that the
(14:43):
King of Sadness says is a great chorus. So I
was like, I think he's right.
S1 (14:48):
When Andy says to you, murder something here, right? And
obviously that's a that's a funny way. But I think
everyone gets what you're saying. How comfortable are you with that?
Like when he says that, are you like, oh yeah,
that's totally great with me. And I'm going to go there.
Or are you like, am I allowed? Is that something
(15:08):
either I can do or I'm allowed to do? Like,
I guess I just wondered like what your like, sort
of emotional, impulsive responses when you hear or read that.
S2 (15:18):
I think it was probably, you know, I would I
think that that there was a dual response to that
where part of me is like, well, I've never done
that before. Is that okay? Is that like, you know,
I'm this artist writing in a pretty Christian space. The
record that I had just released was called Riverhouse, and
(15:41):
a lot of those songs. Um, not that there isn't
pain in them, but they're, you know, there there are
a lot there are a lot of songs kind of
about like, okay, I think they're pretty encouraging. comforting, and
in this space of like, here's who, here's who God
is and and, um, how God is kind of showing
(16:02):
up in my life. And so this in this moment,
I was uncomfortable in the sense that that part of
me that was like, well, I've never done that before.
I've never really talked much about how God is not
showing up. You know how he is maybe feeling quite
(16:22):
absent in this moment. And I'm pretty angry about that.
And and I've never really actually voiced anger to God
before or profound disappointment. And, you know, I've been the
person at church leading the song that's like, oh, you
never let me down, you know, singing that chorus over
and over again. So it's like, am I? Yeah. I
(16:45):
think there was a big part of me that was like,
am I allowed to do that? And then I would
say there was another part of me the artist, the
the part of me that just deeply, deeply that I
think is in all of us, the part that that
really wants to tell it like it is and be
honest and wants an answer to these questions that I have.
(17:09):
I think that part when Andy said, I wonder what
would happen if he murdered someone, you know, his his
very Andy Squyres metaphor for just like, don't tie it
up in a bow, which is what I had done.
Leave the thing like in pieces. And I thought, yeah,
I kind of want to do that. I'm not sure
(17:32):
I have done it before. I'm not even totally sure
I know how, but I really want to do that.
And I think I was also bolstered by him saying,
I know that you can, I know you can, and
I wish you and I wish you would let yourself
do that. It's kind of how I heard. So it
was this almost very pastoral. You know, he he has
(17:56):
mentored me through a lot of things. And I think
that's what it felt like in that moment was almost like, man,
I can see where where you could go if you
would just for yourself up to do that and move
into a more honest place in this song.
S1 (18:12):
And this maybe gets a little bit more, you know,
philosophical or into the, the psyche of things. But clearly,
if you grew up in the church, you're very familiar
with the Psalms. We're all very familiar with the fact
of like, oh yeah, here are 150 entries, if you will.
I mean, song in song form or poetic form or whatever.
But here are all these. Here's the here's the full
(18:33):
spectrum of human emotion, and we canonize it and we
memorize it and we reference it and we, you know,
we think, oh, we're supposed to hide this scripture in
our heart. And those scriptures are, where are you, God? God,
why are you unfaithful to me? I've been faithful to
you like some of the very things that you're like,
can I even go? There are things that we're supposed
(18:53):
to treasure and memorize and reference and live by. And
yet there's this feeling of, like you said, there's this
reticence or even this, like I needed permission to even
go there. Like, when it comes to Christians making films, music, books,
whatever it is, there is this temptation to have to
(19:14):
put the bow on it. Why do you think there's
that that dichotomy? I mean, at least for you. Like what?
Like what is that about?
S2 (19:21):
Yeah. Well, part of it is, I mean, I think
two things come to mind. One thing is culturally, um,
and I think that and I'm using air quotes, like,
I think Christian music because I'm not sure how I
even feel about that as a, as a genre label,
(19:43):
but I think music in that space often suffers from
this need to like for every song to tell the
entire story. Like we can't leave any parts out. So
it's like your three minute song has to arrive at
this place of resurrection every single time. And we're very uncomfortable,
kind of just only telling parts of stories. And I
(20:07):
don't know if that's a fear of people won't get it. People.
People will. I don't want to leave them in this
whatever place when they're listening. And it's like, I think,
I don't know. Part of that is like not trusting
our listeners in a sense to like that they're actually
pretty smart, sophisticated folks who can handle just a part
(20:30):
of the story. I don't know what that is. Or
maybe it's our just own discomfort of just like, uh,
but but yeah, you look at the Psalm and there
are several Psalms I know that. Don't even get to that.
I mean, a lot of them have the, you know,
they have some stanza where they turn to this trust
and hope, but some of them stay. And then I
(20:52):
just think, like, uh, part of it is looking. We
look we often look at we're too zoomed in to
one song, I'm too zoomed into one song, and I
need it to say everything I think and feel and
believe versus like, zooming out and being like, this song
(21:12):
is one chapter of of a of the book I'm writing.
This is just one part of the story that I'm telling,
and actually I would serve the whole story better to
just tell that one part really faithfully. And by faithfully,
I don't mean with a lot of bravado or confident,
(21:33):
you know, like whatever it is, but faithfully in the
sense of like telling it really truthfully and that that
would actually serve the whole thing better. And I'm just thinking, like,
even the Bible itself would feel kind of Ruined in
a sense of like if in the sadder kind of parts.
(21:53):
You think about the Gospels and the parts of Jesus,
like if it was full of tension, if the entire
time he was like, but it's it's all good. Like
it's gonna, you know, I think that even, even Jesus
himself lets us sit in that and like, you know,
even when he would give his disciples, like he would,
(22:15):
he would sometimes be like, you know, he would give
them these kind of mysterious. The temple will be destroyed
but rebuilt in three days. Like, he was kind of
giving them hints that things were going, that resurrection was coming.
But he really doesn't explain things for them often and
lets them sit in those moments. And I just think, man,
(22:38):
it's okay as a writer to tell a story that
is just, you know, your version of Peter denying Christ.
You don't have to get to the you don't have to, like,
get to the forgiveness part where it gets all, but
you can save that for a different song. And I
think this song to to write this song faithfully and
(23:02):
truthfully and like I knew probably like, oh, I need
to let this chorus be something that really lets me
and lets anyone who would listen to it express some
real like grief and anguish, and that is actually going to.
(23:24):
And in doing that, you know, I think when I
sat back at my guitar after Andy kind of sent
me out to rewrite it, I, I did feel commissioned,
I guess, in a sense. And when I sat back
with my guitar, I remember eventually kind of singing that
line because I thought, well, what do I want to say?
And I was like, I think the truth is, I
(23:45):
don't know what, I don't know what to do. And
then I thought, well, that that feels kind of like
what I want to say to.
S1 (23:52):
The what do I do now?
S2 (23:54):
What do I do now? Like that now that this.
Now that the illusion has been shattered. Now that this
thing has happened. Now that I can no longer count
on you to behave in the way that I thought
you were going to behave, then what? What's true now?
Because it feels I don't see. I can't see anything.
(24:16):
And singing that felt really like, uh, it just it
felt right in a sense that it felt really true.
And it and I think the, the surprise to me
in that moment was that and I think this is
true a lot in my life that when I can
(24:37):
and I'm thinking about in prayer, but I'm also just
thinking about across the table from someone when I can
really be honest and be like, this is actually What
it is. I don't feel less connected with the person
across the table, whether that's my friend or God. I
(24:58):
actually feel more connected. Like I actually feel this. Um,
you know, even if I'm not hearing anything back, I
think just the way, just the just the sort of
rightness that you feel in telling the truth and kind
of like, oh, that's what it is. That's actually the thing, um,
(25:21):
that oftentimes I feel like there is this, this sense
of the person on the other end kind of leaning
back into you, you know, um, and yeah, I think
that was true. That was true of that moment for me.
S1 (25:39):
Yeah. It's connective tissue in that way. Let me ask you,
this was, uh, yes or no. This song was a
turning point for you to then be able to tell
the full truth as an artist going forward.
S2 (25:53):
Yes, I think that I realized that in doing, in
writing this song and not just writing it, I mean,
there it certainly had a healing component. Just writing it,
just having it be something I could sing. And then, uh,
(26:14):
who I think I think in Bono's memoir, uh, which
is wonderful, called surrender, he talks about how songs aren't
really finished until you share them. He's like a U2
song isn't really a song until we play it and people,
you know, hear it and that and like in that sense,
(26:35):
then it kind of is a complete thing. So, you know, I,
I think when I started singing this song, um, And,
you know, I'd sing it at a show. I feel
like it really changed. Like it changed the nature of
(26:57):
I could feel people connecting to that song even in
the in the moment of singing it. Um, but then
this thing started happening where that really hadn't. I hadn't
happened to me too much before that. But people would come.
People would, would come to talk to me at the
end and want to talk about this song and would
(27:18):
just share some sort of like, oh, I needed that.
Like I needed the permission. Like you, I didn't have
that permission. I haven't been giving myself that and I
really needed it. And so thank, you know, something like
that or um, yeah. I just think to your point,
(27:39):
why do we not why are these songs hard to write?
It's like not just a songwriting issue, but it's like
also because I think as people, we just don't give
ourselves space to grieve properly, you know? And I think
I was just meeting all these people that had not
really grieved something and were feeling. A three minute, you know,
(28:09):
glimpse into like, oh, I might I think, you know,
this invitation of this might, I need to this is
something I do need to sit with. And so then
I just thought, man, I would rather write songs like that.
I'd rather write songs that give me space and give
other people space to just sit with things that are
(28:32):
hard to sit with. Like, I feel like I'm first
in line of avoiding pain. I mean, I am I'm like,
that is that is a hard thing for me to do. And,
and I just, I want to look away from discomfort.
I don't want to sit with tough emotions. You know,
I have all. Everything in my nervous system is telling
(28:56):
me when something gets difficult. It's like I'm looking for
the eject button out of this. Let me watch a
funny video. Let me just run around the block. Anything
to not deal with this. So I think music in
a sense, has been really important for me to write
these songs as just like also a way to kind
(29:17):
of teach myself how to like, you know, music, even
other so many other people's music has been that for me.
It's kind of like, here's a safe way to, like,
go somewhere that maybe you weren't willing to go on
your own or you couldn't, or you just needed a friend. And, uh, yeah.
(29:40):
And I think it gave me a writing this kind
of song Some more has given me the thing I
want to in music, which is like, I want, uh, I,
you know, I want to connect with people, like, in
a real way.
S1 (29:59):
Well, you know, certainly the song works on that level,
you know, and I'm glad that other people have responded
to you in that way. Um, this feels like a
great time to play the song. So I'd love to
have you take us in it.
S2 (30:12):
Yes. Well, it's been a joy to talk about this song.
That means a lot to me. And, uh, this is
lights gone out.
S3 (30:24):
Lord, I pray your will be done. On earth as
it is in heaven. Today it's hard to believe. When
hell has never come quite so close. I see the
whites of his eyes I feel the breaking of every bone.
(30:53):
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
How many times have I promised to walk through the
smoke and the fire with you? That was long before
(31:17):
I ever knew the flame. Now not this. Not the
thing that I cannot fix. The house is burning and
I'm helpless. I'm helpless. And what do I do? Now.
(31:44):
Let all this go now. And what do I do now?
That all this gloom as. I. What will we find
(32:26):
at the bottom of this bitter drink? This awful cup.
When all the pain's been swallowed up. Will it make
us different? Will we say with confidence that the love
(32:48):
was worth the risk? That the end is joy. Joy.
And what do I do now? And all that I go. And. Oh,
(33:24):
do I you now. The holy light. Go. And. Oh,
what do I do now? That all the guys I.
(33:52):
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
What do I do now? That all the lights go out.
S1 (34:23):
You've been listening to the deepest cut part of the
Rabbit Room podcast network audio production and theme music by
Isaac Vining. Logo and identity work by Meg Cook. The
Deepest Cut was created and hosted by me, Matt Conner.
Thank you so much for listening.
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