August 16, 2023 • 30 mins
In this episode of The Director’s Chair, Michael Fullilove speaks with Kaja Kallas, the Prime Minister of Estonia. They discuss Estonia’s strong support for Ukraine in the face of Russia’s invasion, the future of Russia in world affairs, and why democracies must work together to counter aggression and reinforce support for the international rules-based order.
Kaja Kallas has been the Prime Minister of the Republic of Estonia since 2021. She first became a member of Estonia’s parliament, the Riigikogu, in 2011, and served as a member of the European Parliament from 2014, before returning to politics in Estonia as leader of the Reform Party. She was returned as Prime Minister in March this year after general elections.
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Michael Fullilove (00:02):
Hello, I'm Michael Fullilove. Welcome to this new season of
The Director's Chair. On The Director's Chair, I speak with
world leaders, policy makers and critical thinkers about their lives
and their perspectives on the world. Today, I'm honored to
be speaking with the Prime Minister of Estonia, Kaja Kallas.
Kaja Kallas (00:21):
Everybody wants this war to end. That is very, very clear.
When is it when the war ends? And the war
will end when Russia realizes it made a mistake. It
can't win in Ukraine. And that depends on two conditions.
One is that he understands that the Russians or Russian
leaders understand that the West - and all of the West
(00:46):
- is behind Ukraine as long as it takes. So their
power is bigger than Russia alone. And second, that they
can't break the will of Ukrainians.
Michael Fullilove (00:59):
Kaja Kallas has been the prime minister of Estonia since 2021.
Politics runs in the PM's family. Her father was also
prime minister and her great grandfather was a resistance leader
in Estonia's war of independence in the early 20th century.
A lawyer by training Ms. Kallas was first elected to
the Estonian parliament, the Riigikogu in 2011. She then served
(01:23):
in Brussels as a member of the European Parliament before
returning to Estonian politics in 2018 as the leader of
the Reform Party. She became Prime Minister in 2021, a
role to which she was re-elected after this year's election.
Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February last year, the
Prime Minister has shown great moral and strategic clarity on
(01:46):
the necessity of Western support for Ukraine in its war
for independence and sovereignty. And that's one of the reasons
I'm so pleased to speak with her. Kaja Kallas, thank
you for joining me today from Tallinn for The Director's Chair.
Kaja Kallas (02:00):
Thank you for having me.
Michael Fullilove (02:01):
Prime Minister, let me start at the beginning. You grew
up in a family that was very much part of
public life in Estonia. Did you always imagine that you
would end up in politics?
Kaja Kallas (02:12):
No, absolutely. Actually, it was absolutely the opposite. I fought
this idea for a very long time. I mean, when
I was I was entering university, I chose a subject
that no one in my family really had before because
I didn't want to be compared to anybody else. My
(02:33):
mother is a doctor. My father was, or is a
politician and my brother was working in finance. So I
chose a topic - law - so that I would not be
compared to anybody in my family. And I worked myself
up as a as a lawyer. I became a partner
(02:53):
in one of the biggest law firms in Estonia. And
then the second one, one of the biggest law firms
in Estonia. And I worked myself up as a, as
a lawyer. I became number one in competition law, energy law.
I was a distinguished lawyer, if I may say so myself.
But I guess you just can't fight blood and the
(03:17):
call of your blood, still. So after being working as
a lawyer for 14 years, you know, being a lawyer,
you see what is you know, what could be better
in the design of the society, what we could do better.
And I started to speak on those issues and write
(03:38):
about those issues and then soon I got the call that,
you know, our country needs people like you and you
could go, or you should go into politics. And I said, no, no, no,
I never want to be compared to my father because,
you know, he was also prime minister. And and I
(04:01):
would I would always be sort of not winning that comparison.
But some sort of seed was still planted. And and
after two years of this first proposal, I decided to
participate in the elections and run for the office and
(04:23):
and see what happens. And I got elected with a
personal mandate.
Michael Fullilove (04:29):
You've become prime minister really, at an historic time for
Europe and also for Estonia. Let me take you to
the date of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February last year.
Where were you when you first heard the news that
Russia was invading its neighbour? And what were your thoughts
at that moment?
Kaja Kallas (04:48):
Well, I have to start a bit earlier because already
the summer before the invasion, we saw the signs that
Russia is going to invade Ukraine and started to prepare
for that, hoping that it's not going to happen. And
(05:08):
I remember very well the eve of the 24th of February,
on the 23rd, I said to my cabinet members that
keep your phones on because we probably going to have
a government meeting during the night because Russia is going
to invade Ukraine. And even so, I mean, going to bed,
I was so much hoping that it's not going to happen. That,
(05:31):
you know, we are wrong. And those who were just
the week before debating me, that it's not going to happen,
that these people are right and I'm wrong. But unfortunately,
it wasn't the case. So I woke up - the 24th
of February is also our Independence Day, so it's a
(05:53):
big day of celebration of freedom in Estonia. And we
usually have, the first event is the raising of the
flag together with the sun. I mean, it's a very
joyous event. And although it's very, very cold, people come
with their families at 7:00 in the morning, although it's a
(06:16):
free day. But, I woke up and the first calls
I got from the prime minister of Lithuania and prime
minister of Latvia and and then, you know, we did
the government meeting and and all of it. So, I
(06:37):
remember this day that lasted actually for me two days.
So starting from the 24th until then, didn't have one
hour sleep until the 25th evening.
Michael Fullilove (06:54):
You mentioned your contacts with your counterparts in other capitals.
Tell us a bit about what you've learned about President
Zelenskyy over the last 18 months. As you know, we
were lucky enough to host President Zelenskyy at the Lowy
Institute by Zoom last year. Obviously, he's shown enormous personal,
physical courage and incredible leadership. What have you observed in
(07:19):
him as a fellow leader?
Kaja Kallas (07:20):
You couldn't imagine tougher times that he's having. And being
president of the country that has been attacked so brutally -
it takes a lot of a lot of courage. And
of course, seeing this period - also how all this war
(07:41):
has taken a toll on him - meaning that when he started,
being this joyous figure, joking around and taking maybe things
more lightly, coming to this day when all of these
things that are happening in Ukraine, seeing the suffering of
(08:01):
his people and and fighting for the freedom and existence
of your country, I mean, this takes a toll on
you and definitely has taken a toll on him as well.
Michael Fullilove (08:17):
How is Ukraine's counter-offensive proceeding at the moment, PM?
Kaja Kallas (08:21):
Well, of course everybody would like to see more rapid movement,
but they are trying to save their own people and
doing the counteroffensive as wisely as possible. The counteroffensive depends
on our support. I mean the countries who are supporting
(08:41):
Ukraine so that they can defend their country. This is
extremely important and that's why we have to continue to
do so. And of course, it is also dependent on
the Ukrainians' will, and their patriotism - that is unbreakable. So
(09:02):
it is moving. But not as fast as as one
could hope for.
Michael Fullilove (09:09):
You mentioned the need for the rest of us to
support Ukraine. I think that Estonia's support for Ukraine is
the most generous in the world on a per-capita basis.
Your own re-election as Prime minister earlier this year was
widely interpreted as popular support for the strong stance you've
taken on Ukraine. Of course, your country shares a border
with Russia and a tortured history with Russia. Is this
(09:33):
why Estonians are so clear-eyed about the need for Ukraine
to win this war and for Russia to lose it?
Kaja Kallas (09:40):
Yes, I think it is very clear for us. I
t's very clear what is happening here. And there is
one victim and one aggressor. And what Ukraine is fighting
for is their freedom and sovereignty, but also they are
fighting for the international rules based order. We have the
United Nations and the United Nations charter that says that
(10:04):
you can't attack another the sovereignty of another country. And
definitely all the countries that support the United Nations and
the charter that brings peace. The idea of the United Nations
was that there would never be wars again in the world.
(10:24):
So this is a much broader question, what is at stake.
Coming to our own history? I think what is important
also to understand is that not only that Ukraine wins
this war, but how we can cut the cycle of,
this cycle of aggression. And the cycle that Russia constantly
(10:48):
and repeatedly attacks its neighbouring countries. Russia is the last
colonial power that there is in the world. They are
very open about their imperialistic and colonialistic ideas. They don't
recognize different nations and they want to submit those nations
(11:10):
to their power. And I think this is dangerous for
the whole world when when this goes through. Because there
are aggressors, or would-be aggressors in the world that are carefully
taking notes, how the world really responds in this case.
And for me, the key how to cut this cycle
(11:33):
is the accountability. I mean, if you look at the
wars previously, I mean - there is, after the Second World War,
there was wide condemnation in the world of the Nazi crimes,
and there was a Nuremberg Tribunal, There was a Tokyo Tribunal.
(11:57):
There was never a Moscow tribunal. So the communist crimes
have never been condemned in the same way, although the
victims or the number of victims was equal to the
Nazi crimes. And the Russians have never been accountable for
what they have done in Ukraine, what they have done
(12:19):
in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, for that matter. And they
don't have it in their public conscious - consciousness. They are not,
in the similar way as the Germans for example, guilty
of what they have done. I mean, one of the
(12:40):
effects of the Nuremberg Tribunal, if you read the document points there,
was that the German people got to know about the
crimes committed by the Nazis. And they were, you know,
shocked by this. It has never been the case for Russians.
I mean, they are teaching history from the same history
(13:04):
books that were used during the Soviet Union times. And
that's I mean, not reflecting what really happened.
Michael Fullilove (13:13):
Do you sometimes worry that your colleagues in other capitals
in the West are naive about Moscow?
Kaja Kallas (13:18):
I mean, we all come from different historical backgrounds. And
when we were occupied by Russia and we were behind
the Iron Curtain, then not many Western people knew what
was really happening on the other side of the Iron Curtain.
(13:42):
And I think we have to, you know, enlighten them
and talk about this. And therefore, I mean, we know
how the Russians operate. We know how their state functions,
because we have seen this from within - being occupied by
the Russians. But our Western colleagues do not have the
(14:03):
same experience. So you can't really blame them that they
don't know and treat Russia as any other democratic country
where it is not. I mean, I've been explaining to
my colleagues, it's like, you are looking at Russia through this
democratic lens like you see the world. I mean, if
(14:26):
you would decide to go in a war to attack
another country, then next elections, I mean, you would have
the soldiers, mothers on the streets, you would have protests.
They would not elect you back. But it's not the
same way in dictatorships. They don't care about what the
(14:46):
people think, because the people's voice does not really matter.
They care about the power. And what keeps them in
power is, you know, keeping the oligarchs, so the cronies
around them happy, keeping the army and the power structures
happy that keep you in power, and eliminating all the alternatives.
So it's not the democratic lens that we should look
(15:09):
Russia really through or through which we should look Russia.
Michael Fullilove (15:13):
Let me pick up this point about conversations between democracies.
It seems to me that one positive result of Russia's
invasion of Ukraine and Ukraine's marvelous resistance has been the
quickening of connections between democracies where we're all looking at
each other and feeling solidarity and realizing we need to
cooperate with each other. And it's throwing up all sorts
(15:37):
of interesting collisions. We had your former colleague, Sanna Marin
of Finland, for example, visiting Australia at the end of
last year, the first time a Finnish PM has come
to Australia. But it sort of makes sense, in a
funny sort of way, because we are looking at each
other with familiarity, and with sympathy, and with with solidarity.
Is that something you feel? Do you feel that in
(15:58):
terms of that, that that there's a tightening of connections?
Kaja Kallas (16:04):
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think - I mean, coming closer - one of the
effects or what Putin really desired to achieve is to
divide us. What he has actually achieved is to unite us.
When we talk about the European Union, when we talk about NATO,
(16:25):
but when we also talk about like-minded partners across the globe.
And even before the war started, we - I hosted here
in Tallinn, the Tallinn Digital Summit, talking about the connections
that we have, and why these connections might also hurt
(16:48):
us when we are not connected to like-minded partners. And
there we talk about technology, I mean, and therefore those countries
who are like-minded and share similar values should also stick together.
And I think one of the effects of this war
is that we have found these ties and and connections
(17:12):
and cherish them more than we did maybe before.
Michael Fullilove (17:17):
Let me ask you, the world's leading democracy is the
United States. And although Ukraine has led, Ukrainians are defending
themselves with enormous courage, and the rest of Europe is
assisting in many important ways, nevertheless, the United States is
at the center of that effort. Could Ukraine defend itself
(17:38):
without American assistance? How worried are you about the future
of the Western effort if, for example, someone like Donald
Trump were elected president?
Kaja Kallas (17:47):
I mean, so far the meetings that I've had with
both parties in America and their their representatives, they are
quite strong in supporting Ukraine. If you think about the history,
I mean Reagan and his background when the Berlin Wall
(18:14):
came down and everything related to that - I mean both
parties have a history of understanding what is at stake with Russia.
So I'm really hoping that it's not up to one person,
and one person only. But we have to, you know,
stick together. And it's understandable that in democracies, you know,
(18:38):
new worries kick in. Your domestic problems kick in and
new crises emerge. How to really keep this in the
radar so that everybody understands what is at stake here,
and I hope that the big democracies also do understand that.
(19:00):
And so far, US has been leading here and has
been a very important part in supporting Ukraine. But we
all have to do more. And there I mean, I'm
also talking about our other European colleagues and countries, what
we could do more to support Ukraine, because what is important:
(19:24):
everybody wants this war to end. That is very, very clear.
But when this war ends, or when is it, when
the war ends? And the war will end, when Russia
realizes it made a mistake, it can't win in Ukraine.
And that depends on two conditions. One is that he understands,
(19:44):
the Russians or Russia leaders understand, that the West and
all of the West is behind Ukraine, as long as
it takes. So their power is bigger than Russia alone.
And second, that they can't break the will of Ukrainians.
(20:04):
So those two elements. If you think about Afghanistan, for example,
I mean, after ten years, Russia understood that they can't
win there, so they withdraw. And the same could happen
in Ukraine because the war will end when Russia will
go back to its borders. And they haven't lost anything. I
(20:26):
mean they haven't lost territory. And and therefore this support
- our united support to Ukraine - is extremely, extremely important.
Michael Fullilove (20:38):
Can I ask you, Russia would be taking some succour
from the support or at least the lack of condemnation
that it's receiving from countries like China or for that matter, India?
Let me ask you about China, which, as you know,
said before the war that it has a no-limits partnership
with Russia. Have you been disappointed by China's refusal to
(20:58):
really break with Russia over Ukraine, given that support for
territorial integrity and state sovereignty has been at the core
of Chinese foreign policy for a long time.
Kaja Kallas (21:08):
Of course, you in Australia now know China better. But
I mean, I've been also reading about China to understand
where they come from. Because it was years ago when
their first worry was Russia, and not United States. But
what changed that was three elements really. First was the
(21:34):
Tiananmen Square and the events there. Second, the fall of
the Soviet Union and the third, the Gulf War. So
what they felt was that the risk for their existence
comes from the United States, rather than a Soviet Union or Russia
(21:57):
that is weaker, much weaker. So they made a turn there.
What we are emphasizing when we talk to the Chinese
is that they are also part of the United Nations.
And they, as part of the United Nations - and not
only United Nations, but the Security Council of United Nations -
(22:19):
they should also be extremely interested that the international laws
and the UN charter applies. And this is where we
want to see more support from China as well. I guess,
you know, they are feeling threatened. But what we, what
(22:47):
we have to explain also, what is at stake here
is that nobody has attacked Russia. It's vice versa. So
it's not that their worries or rights or interests have
been somewhat affected or attacked here. But it's vice versa.
(23:10):
They are the aggressor here. But it takes a lot
of effort to explain this, because it comes from the
bigger global sphere of, you know, history, everything that is
affecting this. But it's a not lost hope that I
(23:30):
would say.
Michael Fullilove (23:32):
All right, not a lost cause. The other cause, it's important,
I guess, is persuading the global South of what's at
stake here. Countries that are not particularly connected necessarily to Russia,
but are more focused on other, on food security or
other issues, or see this as a Western war. Estonia
(23:53):
is a small country. When you're when you're talking to
your counterparts in countries from the global South, how do
you make the case to them that they have a stake, too,
in the outcome of this war?
Kaja Kallas (24:05):
First, it's international law and international rules based order. Second,
Russia is the last colonial power in the world. They
are trying to, they are very open about this. I mean,
Putin has has just before the war started, expressed their goals.
(24:30):
What they want to achieve is that, you know, Ukraine
stops existing as a country and they can submit those countries,
also the Baltics and Poland, to their power. So it
is the last colonial power. And the global South very
much understands what this really means. And the third, when
(24:53):
it comes to the to the grain, then it is
not under sanctions, but all these grain-related issues are done by
Russia because grain is not under sanctions. And Russia has
said that, and this is a quote, that hunger is
(25:18):
our last hope. Hunger is our last hope to pressure,
you know, the West or Ukraine to really give in.
And and I'm very worried that these kind of Russian
narratives are really picked up in the global South, that
(25:39):
it is the sanctions that the grain is is not moving. No,
it is Russia deliberately doing this, in order to achieve
its goals that are not legitimate.
Michael Fullilove (25:52):
Just a final, a couple of final questions, PM. I've noticed
since Russia's invasion of Ukraine that some of the most
powerful voices arguing against the invasion have been female, whether it's
from Estonia or Germany or Lithuania or Finland. Given Putin's
sort of obsession with machismo - t his must drive him mad.
(26:13):
Do you do you do you get a sense that
that this drives him crazy? Or do you only hope so?
Kaja Kallas (26:25):
It was some some time ago when, you know, I
was first in their propaganda show. And then there was
one Russian propaganda show entirely dedicated to me, and analyzing me,
and how I dressed and what it means - and I'm
(26:46):
a puppet of somebody and, so on. And my father said that
it's a big compliment, because the Russians have never ever
spent so much time - actually they haven't spent any time
on any Estonian politician at all. So you must have
(27:08):
stepped on their toes that they dedicate so much time
to really show you in a negative light. So I
guess like Churchill said, if you have enemies, at least
you have stood up for something.
Michael Fullilove (27:22):
There's been speculation that you could be a good Secretary-General
of NATO. Prime Minister, Would you be interested in that
job in the future? What would it mean for your
country to have an Estonian as the head of NATO?
Kaja Kallas (27:32):
I was sort of hoping that when Jens Stoltenberg term
was extended that these questions stop. But they they don't stop.
I answer this in a more broader way - I was
born under Russian occupation. And I was a teenager when we
got our freedom back. And my father was a politician,
(27:57):
I mean, doing the negotiations with the European Union, with NATO,
and as I was always very interested in these topics,
then I knew, and I was seeing how hard it
is for us to get into NATO because nobody really
wanted us there. And it was a lot of, persuasion,
(28:22):
a lot of work, a lot of reforms that we
had to do, in order to get to the European Union.
And a lot of effort from the country as well.
So now, when I have been mentioned as one of
the candidates for this position, I can't really describe how
much that means for my country to be recognized as
(28:47):
one of the equals around the table. But to answer
your question, it is highly unlikely that I will be
offered such a job. So although we are already heard
around the table, I think going to that would be
a very, very long way. But it's a compliment, I
(29:08):
would say.
Michael Fullilove (29:09):
Prime Minister, it's been a pleasure to speak with you
today for The Director's Chair. As you know, I'll be
visiting Estonia as well as Finland and Sweden later this month,
which is part of the quickening of connections between democracies
that we discussed earlier. I hope that if I don't
see you in Tallinn, you'll come and visit us soon
in Sydney.
Kaja Kallas (29:28):
Yes. Thank you. Tallinn is a is a small, small city.
So we will run into each other probably here. I
don't know about Sydney, though. Really hoping to welcome you
in in Estonia soon.
Michael Fullilove (29:41):
Thanks, PM.
Kaja Kallas (29:42):
Thank you.
Michael Fullilove (29:43):
You've been listening to the Director's Chair, a podcast from
the Lowy Institute in Sydney, Australia. The producers for this
episode were Josh Goding and Shane McLeod, with research assistance
by David Balance. You can find all our episodes at
the website lowyinstitute.org/directorschair
I'm Michael Fullilove. Thank you for listening.
Hello, I'm Michael Fullilove. Welcome to this new season of
The Director's Chair. On The Director's Chair, I speak with
world leaders, policy makers and critical thinkers about their lives
and their perspectives on the world. Today, I'm honored to
be speaking with the Prime Minister of Estonia, Kaja Kallas.
Kaja Kallas (00:21):
Everybody wants this war to end. That is very, very clear.
When is it when the war ends? And the war
will end when Russia realizes it made a mistake. It
can't win in Ukraine. And that depends on two conditions.
One is that he understands that the Russians or Russian
leaders understand that the West - and all of the West
(00:46):
- is behind Ukraine as long as it takes. So their
power is bigger than Russia alone. And second, that they
can't break the will of Ukrainians.
Michael Fullilove (00:59):
Kaja Kallas has been the prime minister of Estonia since 2021.
Politics runs in the PM's family. Her father was also
prime minister and her great grandfather was a resistance leader
in Estonia's war of independence in the early 20th century.
A lawyer by training Ms. Kallas was first elected to
the Estonian parliament, the Riigikogu in 2011. She then served
(01:23):
in Brussels as a member of the European Parliament before
returning to Estonian politics in 2018 as the leader of
the Reform Party. She became Prime Minister in 2021, a
role to which she was re-elected after this year's election.
Since Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February last year, the
Prime Minister has shown great moral and strategic clarity on
(01:46):
the necessity of Western support for Ukraine in its war
for independence and sovereignty. And that's one of the reasons
I'm so pleased to speak with her. Kaja Kallas, thank
you for joining me today from Tallinn for The Director's Chair.
Kaja Kallas (02:00):
Thank you for having me.
Michael Fullilove (02:01):
Prime Minister, let me start at the beginning. You grew
up in a family that was very much part of
public life in Estonia. Did you always imagine that you
would end up in politics?
Kaja Kallas (02:12):
No, absolutely. Actually, it was absolutely the opposite. I fought
this idea for a very long time. I mean, when
I was I was entering university, I chose a subject
that no one in my family really had before because
I didn't want to be compared to anybody else. My
(02:33):
mother is a doctor. My father was, or is a
politician and my brother was working in finance. So I
chose a topic - law - so that I would not be
compared to anybody in my family. And I worked myself
up as a as a lawyer. I became a partner
(02:53):
in one of the biggest law firms in Estonia. And
then the second one, one of the biggest law firms
in Estonia. And I worked myself up as a, as
a lawyer. I became number one in competition law, energy law.
I was a distinguished lawyer, if I may say so myself.
But I guess you just can't fight blood and the
(03:17):
call of your blood, still. So after being working as
a lawyer for 14 years, you know, being a lawyer,
you see what is you know, what could be better
in the design of the society, what we could do better.
And I started to speak on those issues and write
(03:38):
about those issues and then soon I got the call that,
you know, our country needs people like you and you
could go, or you should go into politics. And I said, no, no, no,
I never want to be compared to my father because,
you know, he was also prime minister. And and I
(04:01):
would I would always be sort of not winning that comparison.
But some sort of seed was still planted. And and
after two years of this first proposal, I decided to
participate in the elections and run for the office and
(04:23):
and see what happens. And I got elected with a
personal mandate.
Michael Fullilove (04:29):
You've become prime minister really, at an historic time for
Europe and also for Estonia. Let me take you to
the date of Russia's invasion of Ukraine in February last year.
Where were you when you first heard the news that
Russia was invading its neighbour? And what were your thoughts
at that moment?
Kaja Kallas (04:48):
Well, I have to start a bit earlier because already
the summer before the invasion, we saw the signs that
Russia is going to invade Ukraine and started to prepare
for that, hoping that it's not going to happen. And
(05:08):
I remember very well the eve of the 24th of February,
on the 23rd, I said to my cabinet members that
keep your phones on because we probably going to have
a government meeting during the night because Russia is going
to invade Ukraine. And even so, I mean, going to bed,
I was so much hoping that it's not going to happen. That,
(05:31):
you know, we are wrong. And those who were just
the week before debating me, that it's not going to happen,
that these people are right and I'm wrong. But unfortunately,
it wasn't the case. So I woke up - the 24th
of February is also our Independence Day, so it's a
(05:53):
big day of celebration of freedom in Estonia. And we
usually have, the first event is the raising of the
flag together with the sun. I mean, it's a very
joyous event. And although it's very, very cold, people come
with their families at 7:00 in the morning, although it's a
(06:16):
free day. But, I woke up and the first calls
I got from the prime minister of Lithuania and prime
minister of Latvia and and then, you know, we did
the government meeting and and all of it. So, I
(06:37):
remember this day that lasted actually for me two days.
So starting from the 24th until then, didn't have one
hour sleep until the 25th evening.
Michael Fullilove (06:54):
You mentioned your contacts with your counterparts in other capitals.
Tell us a bit about what you've learned about President
Zelenskyy over the last 18 months. As you know, we
were lucky enough to host President Zelenskyy at the Lowy
Institute by Zoom last year. Obviously, he's shown enormous personal,
physical courage and incredible leadership. What have you observed in
(07:19):
him as a fellow leader?
Kaja Kallas (07:20):
You couldn't imagine tougher times that he's having. And being
president of the country that has been attacked so brutally -
it takes a lot of a lot of courage. And
of course, seeing this period - also how all this war
(07:41):
has taken a toll on him - meaning that when he started,
being this joyous figure, joking around and taking maybe things
more lightly, coming to this day when all of these
things that are happening in Ukraine, seeing the suffering of
(08:01):
his people and and fighting for the freedom and existence
of your country, I mean, this takes a toll on
you and definitely has taken a toll on him as well.
Michael Fullilove (08:17):
How is Ukraine's counter-offensive proceeding at the moment, PM?
Kaja Kallas (08:21):
Well, of course everybody would like to see more rapid movement,
but they are trying to save their own people and
doing the counteroffensive as wisely as possible. The counteroffensive depends
on our support. I mean the countries who are supporting
(08:41):
Ukraine so that they can defend their country. This is
extremely important and that's why we have to continue to
do so. And of course, it is also dependent on
the Ukrainians' will, and their patriotism - that is unbreakable. So
(09:02):
it is moving. But not as fast as as one
could hope for.
Michael Fullilove (09:09):
You mentioned the need for the rest of us to
support Ukraine. I think that Estonia's support for Ukraine is
the most generous in the world on a per-capita basis.
Your own re-election as Prime minister earlier this year was
widely interpreted as popular support for the strong stance you've
taken on Ukraine. Of course, your country shares a border
with Russia and a tortured history with Russia. Is this
(09:33):
why Estonians are so clear-eyed about the need for Ukraine
to win this war and for Russia to lose it?
Kaja Kallas (09:40):
Yes, I think it is very clear for us. I
t's very clear what is happening here. And there is
one victim and one aggressor. And what Ukraine is fighting
for is their freedom and sovereignty, but also they are
fighting for the international rules based order. We have the
United Nations and the United Nations charter that says that
(10:04):
you can't attack another the sovereignty of another country. And
definitely all the countries that support the United Nations and
the charter that brings peace. The idea of the United Nations
was that there would never be wars again in the world.
(10:24):
So this is a much broader question, what is at stake.
Coming to our own history? I think what is important
also to understand is that not only that Ukraine wins
this war, but how we can cut the cycle of,
this cycle of aggression. And the cycle that Russia constantly
(10:48):
and repeatedly attacks its neighbouring countries. Russia is the last
colonial power that there is in the world. They are
very open about their imperialistic and colonialistic ideas. They don't
recognize different nations and they want to submit those nations
(11:10):
to their power. And I think this is dangerous for
the whole world when when this goes through. Because there
are aggressors, or would-be aggressors in the world that are carefully
taking notes, how the world really responds in this case.
And for me, the key how to cut this cycle
(11:33):
is the accountability. I mean, if you look at the
wars previously, I mean - there is, after the Second World War,
there was wide condemnation in the world of the Nazi crimes,
and there was a Nuremberg Tribunal, There was a Tokyo Tribunal.
(11:57):
There was never a Moscow tribunal. So the communist crimes
have never been condemned in the same way, although the
victims or the number of victims was equal to the
Nazi crimes. And the Russians have never been accountable for
what they have done in Ukraine, what they have done
(12:19):
in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, for that matter. And they
don't have it in their public conscious - consciousness. They are not,
in the similar way as the Germans for example, guilty
of what they have done. I mean, one of the
(12:40):
effects of the Nuremberg Tribunal, if you read the document points there,
was that the German people got to know about the
crimes committed by the Nazis. And they were, you know,
shocked by this. It has never been the case for Russians.
I mean, they are teaching history from the same history
(13:04):
books that were used during the Soviet Union times. And
that's I mean, not reflecting what really happened.
Michael Fullilove (13:13):
Do you sometimes worry that your colleagues in other capitals
in the West are naive about Moscow?
Kaja Kallas (13:18):
I mean, we all come from different historical backgrounds. And
when we were occupied by Russia and we were behind
the Iron Curtain, then not many Western people knew what
was really happening on the other side of the Iron Curtain.
(13:42):
And I think we have to, you know, enlighten them
and talk about this. And therefore, I mean, we know
how the Russians operate. We know how their state functions,
because we have seen this from within - being occupied by
the Russians. But our Western colleagues do not have the
(14:03):
same experience. So you can't really blame them that they
don't know and treat Russia as any other democratic country
where it is not. I mean, I've been explaining to
my colleagues, it's like, you are looking at Russia through this
democratic lens like you see the world. I mean, if
(14:26):
you would decide to go in a war to attack
another country, then next elections, I mean, you would have
the soldiers, mothers on the streets, you would have protests.
They would not elect you back. But it's not the
same way in dictatorships. They don't care about what the
(14:46):
people think, because the people's voice does not really matter.
They care about the power. And what keeps them in
power is, you know, keeping the oligarchs, so the cronies
around them happy, keeping the army and the power structures
happy that keep you in power, and eliminating all the alternatives.
So it's not the democratic lens that we should look
(15:09):
Russia really through or through which we should look Russia.
Michael Fullilove (15:13):
Let me pick up this point about conversations between democracies.
It seems to me that one positive result of Russia's
invasion of Ukraine and Ukraine's marvelous resistance has been the
quickening of connections between democracies where we're all looking at
each other and feeling solidarity and realizing we need to
cooperate with each other. And it's throwing up all sorts
(15:37):
of interesting collisions. We had your former colleague, Sanna Marin
of Finland, for example, visiting Australia at the end of
last year, the first time a Finnish PM has come
to Australia. But it sort of makes sense, in a
funny sort of way, because we are looking at each
other with familiarity, and with sympathy, and with with solidarity.
Is that something you feel? Do you feel that in
(15:58):
terms of that, that that there's a tightening of connections?
Kaja Kallas (16:04):
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think - I mean, coming closer - one of the
effects or what Putin really desired to achieve is to
divide us. What he has actually achieved is to unite us.
When we talk about the European Union, when we talk about NATO,
(16:25):
but when we also talk about like-minded partners across the globe.
And even before the war started, we - I hosted here
in Tallinn, the Tallinn Digital Summit, talking about the connections
that we have, and why these connections might also hurt
(16:48):
us when we are not connected to like-minded partners. And
there we talk about technology, I mean, and therefore those countries
who are like-minded and share similar values should also stick together.
And I think one of the effects of this war
is that we have found these ties and and connections
(17:12):
and cherish them more than we did maybe before.
Michael Fullilove (17:17):
Let me ask you, the world's leading democracy is the
United States. And although Ukraine has led, Ukrainians are defending
themselves with enormous courage, and the rest of Europe is
assisting in many important ways, nevertheless, the United States is
at the center of that effort. Could Ukraine defend itself
(17:38):
without American assistance? How worried are you about the future
of the Western effort if, for example, someone like Donald
Trump were elected president?
Kaja Kallas (17:47):
I mean, so far the meetings that I've had with
both parties in America and their their representatives, they are
quite strong in supporting Ukraine. If you think about the history,
I mean Reagan and his background when the Berlin Wall
(18:14):
came down and everything related to that - I mean both
parties have a history of understanding what is at stake with Russia.
So I'm really hoping that it's not up to one person,
and one person only. But we have to, you know,
stick together. And it's understandable that in democracies, you know,
(18:38):
new worries kick in. Your domestic problems kick in and
new crises emerge. How to really keep this in the
radar so that everybody understands what is at stake here,
and I hope that the big democracies also do understand that.
(19:00):
And so far, US has been leading here and has
been a very important part in supporting Ukraine. But we
all have to do more. And there I mean, I'm
also talking about our other European colleagues and countries, what
we could do more to support Ukraine, because what is important:
(19:24):
everybody wants this war to end. That is very, very clear.
But when this war ends, or when is it, when
the war ends? And the war will end, when Russia
realizes it made a mistake, it can't win in Ukraine.
And that depends on two conditions. One is that he understands,
(19:44):
the Russians or Russia leaders understand, that the West and
all of the West is behind Ukraine, as long as
it takes. So their power is bigger than Russia alone.
And second, that they can't break the will of Ukrainians.
(20:04):
So those two elements. If you think about Afghanistan, for example,
I mean, after ten years, Russia understood that they can't
win there, so they withdraw. And the same could happen
in Ukraine because the war will end when Russia will
go back to its borders. And they haven't lost anything. I
(20:26):
mean they haven't lost territory. And and therefore this support
- our united support to Ukraine - is extremely, extremely important.
Michael Fullilove (20:38):
Can I ask you, Russia would be taking some succour
from the support or at least the lack of condemnation
that it's receiving from countries like China or for that matter, India?
Let me ask you about China, which, as you know,
said before the war that it has a no-limits partnership
with Russia. Have you been disappointed by China's refusal to
(20:58):
really break with Russia over Ukraine, given that support for
territorial integrity and state sovereignty has been at the core
of Chinese foreign policy for a long time.
Kaja Kallas (21:08):
Of course, you in Australia now know China better. But
I mean, I've been also reading about China to understand
where they come from. Because it was years ago when
their first worry was Russia, and not United States. But
what changed that was three elements really. First was the
(21:34):
Tiananmen Square and the events there. Second, the fall of
the Soviet Union and the third, the Gulf War. So
what they felt was that the risk for their existence
comes from the United States, rather than a Soviet Union or Russia
(21:57):
that is weaker, much weaker. So they made a turn there.
What we are emphasizing when we talk to the Chinese
is that they are also part of the United Nations.
And they, as part of the United Nations - and not
only United Nations, but the Security Council of United Nations -
(22:19):
they should also be extremely interested that the international laws
and the UN charter applies. And this is where we
want to see more support from China as well. I guess,
you know, they are feeling threatened. But what we, what
(22:47):
we have to explain also, what is at stake here
is that nobody has attacked Russia. It's vice versa. So
it's not that their worries or rights or interests have
been somewhat affected or attacked here. But it's vice versa.
(23:10):
They are the aggressor here. But it takes a lot
of effort to explain this, because it comes from the
bigger global sphere of, you know, history, everything that is
affecting this. But it's a not lost hope that I
(23:30):
would say.
Michael Fullilove (23:32):
All right, not a lost cause. The other cause, it's important,
I guess, is persuading the global South of what's at
stake here. Countries that are not particularly connected necessarily to Russia,
but are more focused on other, on food security or
other issues, or see this as a Western war. Estonia
(23:53):
is a small country. When you're when you're talking to
your counterparts in countries from the global South, how do
you make the case to them that they have a stake, too,
in the outcome of this war?
Kaja Kallas (24:05):
First, it's international law and international rules based order. Second,
Russia is the last colonial power in the world. They
are trying to, they are very open about this. I mean,
Putin has has just before the war started, expressed their goals.
(24:30):
What they want to achieve is that, you know, Ukraine
stops existing as a country and they can submit those countries,
also the Baltics and Poland, to their power. So it
is the last colonial power. And the global South very
much understands what this really means. And the third, when
(24:53):
it comes to the to the grain, then it is
not under sanctions, but all these grain-related issues are done by
Russia because grain is not under sanctions. And Russia has
said that, and this is a quote, that hunger is
(25:18):
our last hope. Hunger is our last hope to pressure,
you know, the West or Ukraine to really give in.
And and I'm very worried that these kind of Russian
narratives are really picked up in the global South, that
(25:39):
it is the sanctions that the grain is is not moving. No,
it is Russia deliberately doing this, in order to achieve
its goals that are not legitimate.
Michael Fullilove (25:52):
Just a final, a couple of final questions, PM. I've noticed
since Russia's invasion of Ukraine that some of the most
powerful voices arguing against the invasion have been female, whether it's
from Estonia or Germany or Lithuania or Finland. Given Putin's
sort of obsession with machismo - t his must drive him mad.
(26:13):
Do you do you do you get a sense that
that this drives him crazy? Or do you only hope so?
Kaja Kallas (26:25):
It was some some time ago when, you know, I
was first in their propaganda show. And then there was
one Russian propaganda show entirely dedicated to me, and analyzing me,
and how I dressed and what it means - and I'm
(26:46):
a puppet of somebody and, so on. And my father said that
it's a big compliment, because the Russians have never ever
spent so much time - actually they haven't spent any time
on any Estonian politician at all. So you must have
(27:08):
stepped on their toes that they dedicate so much time
to really show you in a negative light. So I
guess like Churchill said, if you have enemies, at least
you have stood up for something.
Michael Fullilove (27:22):
There's been speculation that you could be a good Secretary-General
of NATO. Prime Minister, Would you be interested in that
job in the future? What would it mean for your
country to have an Estonian as the head of NATO?
Kaja Kallas (27:32):
I was sort of hoping that when Jens Stoltenberg term
was extended that these questions stop. But they they don't stop.
I answer this in a more broader way - I was
born under Russian occupation. And I was a teenager when we
got our freedom back. And my father was a politician,
(27:57):
I mean, doing the negotiations with the European Union, with NATO,
and as I was always very interested in these topics,
then I knew, and I was seeing how hard it
is for us to get into NATO because nobody really
wanted us there. And it was a lot of, persuasion,
(28:22):
a lot of work, a lot of reforms that we
had to do, in order to get to the European Union.
And a lot of effort from the country as well.
So now, when I have been mentioned as one of
the candidates for this position, I can't really describe how
much that means for my country to be recognized as
(28:47):
one of the equals around the table. But to answer
your question, it is highly unlikely that I will be
offered such a job. So although we are already heard
around the table, I think going to that would be
a very, very long way. But it's a compliment, I
(29:08):
would say.
Michael Fullilove (29:09):
Prime Minister, it's been a pleasure to speak with you
today for The Director's Chair. As you know, I'll be
visiting Estonia as well as Finland and Sweden later this month,
which is part of the quickening of connections between democracies
that we discussed earlier. I hope that if I don't
see you in Tallinn, you'll come and visit us soon
in Sydney.
Kaja Kallas (29:28):
Yes. Thank you. Tallinn is a is a small, small city.
So we will run into each other probably here. I
don't know about Sydney, though. Really hoping to welcome you
in in Estonia soon.
Michael Fullilove (29:41):
Thanks, PM.
Kaja Kallas (29:42):
Thank you.
Michael Fullilove (29:43):
You've been listening to the Director's Chair, a podcast from
the Lowy Institute in Sydney, Australia. The producers for this
episode were Josh Goding and Shane McLeod, with research assistance
by David Balance. You can find all our episodes at
the website lowyinstitute.org/directorschair
I'm Michael Fullilove. Thank you for listening.
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