December 2, 2022 • 37 mins
In this special episode of The Director's Chair, Michael Fullilove speaks with Sanna Marin, the Prime Minister of Finland. They discuss Finland's decision to join NATO, and the security challenges facing all of Europe as a consequence of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. This conversation was recorded at a live event at the Lowy Institute on 2 December 2022.
Sanna Marin was appointed Prime Minister of Finland on 10 December 2019. She has been actively engaged in politics since 2006. In 2015, she was elected to Parliament and has been a member of the Grand Committee, Legal Affairs Committee and Environment Committee. Ms Marin is the third female Prime Minister of Finland and the youngest prime minister in Finland’s history.
Video and audio recordings of the full event are available at the Lowy Institute website.
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Episode Transcript
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Michael Fullilove (00:00):
Hello, I'm Michael Fullilove. A special episode today with a world
leader who's making her mark by standing up to the
aggressor next door, and taking her country into NATO.
Sanna Marin (00:11):
For a long time, Europe was building a strategy towards
Russia to close our economic ties, and we thought that
this would prevent the war. But this was proven entirely wrong.
He doesn't care about those economic ties. He only cares
about about Russia and the Russian view of Europe. And
(00:31):
they view Ukraine as part of Russia.
Michael Fullilove (00:35):
The Prime Minister of Finland, Sanna Marin, is my guest
for this episode of The Director's Chair.
I'm Michael Fullilove. And for this special episode, I'm delighted
to feature a conversation with Sanna Marin, the first prime
minister of Finland, ever to visit Australia. I don't think
it's a coincidence that the PM's visit is happening now,
(00:57):
even as Finland is on the frontline of the struggle
to defend Ukraine from Russia. President Putin's aggression has reminded
all of us in the world's democracies how much we
have in common with each other. Whether it's prime ministers,
foreign ministers or thinktank directors, we're all reaching out to
our counterparts in like minded countries. The connections between democracies
(01:21):
are quickening.
Sanna Marin has been involved in politics from the age
of 20. She served as Minister of Transport and Communications
before her appointment as Finland's youngest prime minister in 2019.
The PM was our guest at the Lowy Institute for
an address titled How a Strong Europe Can Contribute to
(01:41):
a More Secure World. Ms Marin and I sat down in
front of the live audience for a conversation afterwards.
Thank you for agreeing to take some questions. Your country
shares a 1300 kilometer border with Russia. It's often said
that the first responsibility of any prime minister or any
(02:04):
leader is to keep her country or his country secure
and safe. How is your conception of your job changed
since February?
Sanna Marin (02:14):
Well, of course, we are all in very difficult situation
in Europe because of the war of Ukraine. And of course,
it changed the agenda of our government. Of all the
key decisions to parliament. And and we also have a
president in Finland that has the key role in in
(02:34):
security and foreign policy. So, of course, all of our
focus is now on the war in the war and
also how what it means to Europe in many ways.
And as I said in my speech, I think we
have to learn lessons from this war. We cannot be
dependent on critical matters now. We are too dependent on
(02:56):
energy coming from Russia. And that actually means very concrete things.
It means that we are financing the war every day
because we are buying energy from Russia and we have
to make sure that we don't have those kind of
dependencies in the future. But foreign and security policy are
now the key areas that we are engaged every day
(03:17):
in our government and also in our societies in many ways.
Michael Fullilove (03:22):
Or I'm going to come back to those vulnerabilities that
you mentioned a little bit later. But first of all,
let me ask you about President Zelenskyy. In October, I
was lucky enough to host him on this stage, albeit
by Zoom. Of course, you met with him in Kiev
earlier in the year. You were one of the first
world leaders to go to cave to meet him. What
were your observations of him as a leader and as
(03:43):
a as a fellow politician? I guess you have a
particular appreciation for the task he has. So how have
you appreciated how he's gone about doing his job?
Sanna Marin (03:52):
Well, I've met President Zelenskyy many times live and also.
Zoom and and and teams as we all have been
doing during COVID as well. And he has been participating
in many European Council meetings as well, telling us the
situation in Ukraine. And it was really memorable, the visit
(04:16):
to Kiev, Ukraine during the war. And I remember vividly
about the different sides of Kiev and during my visit,
President Zelensky and also Prime Minister Mikhail and and others
from the government were in the government buildings, bunkers. There
were sand, sand sacks everywhere. And and it was very secure.
(04:40):
The the holes were dark so that you couldn't spot
where we were moving. But at the same time, people
on the streets, on the parks, they were trying to
live a normal life as possible. So there are these
different scenes in Kiev and in Ukraine. As we speak,
(05:02):
President Zelenskyy is a very brave, courageous man. And I
think the whole Ukrainian nation, they are so courageous right now,
fighting for their freedom, fighting for their serenity and their
their nation as such. So I think we have to
support them every way we can. They are so heroic
(05:23):
and we must make sure that they will win.
Michael Fullilove (05:25):
I think in that visit you also visited Bucha.
Sanna Marin (05:28):
Yes. And Irpin as well.
Michael Fullilove (05:30):
And how did how did those visits that the revelation
of the darkest the darkest sides of this conflict, how
did that affect you?
Sanna Marin (05:38):
Well, we visited Irpin and Bucha and saw the mass graves. Saw
what Russians have had done and I'm thinking I was
thinking then and thinking still about the regions where there
are still Russian military troops. And we have seen terrible footages,
we have heard terrible stories, and we know that there
(06:00):
are rapes that are actively part of the war and
there are tortured, tortured civilians. There are these terrible actions
happening every day. And the Ukrainians, they are not fighting
for themselves. They are also fighting for the European values,
democratic values. And we must make sure that they will
(06:22):
not only win, but they will thrive in the future.
We want to make sure that they can become members
of European Union, that they will have a bright future
ahead of them. I remember also that Finland were in war.
We have been in war with Russia and our story
after the war when we gained our independence is a
(06:46):
successful one. We have built our welfare nation, we have
educated our people. We have a good perspective to the
future also from from this point. So we have to
make sure that also the Ukrainians have that hope that
they will have a bright future ahead of them. They
are now fighting for their lives. They are fighting for
their freedom, but they are also fighting for a better future.
(07:09):
This is the hope that that gives them strength right now.
And we have to make sure that we will boost
that hope, that we will help them and that we
will give be by side by their sides the building
this this better future.
Michael Fullilove (07:23):
Let me ask you about Finland. Given Finland's strategic location
and give it its given its history alongside its remarkable
social democracy, Finland is also a remarkably resilient country, a
country that is able to mobilize hundreds of thousands of
of people from for military service and do a lot
(07:45):
to defend itself. So tell us, as a progressive leader,
how how has Finland managed to do both of these things?
A strong social democracy, but strong national security at the
same time?
Sanna Marin (07:57):
Well, I think if you ask Finnish people what is
the most most important thing in our nation and what
we want to make sure that the future, it's to
be secure because of our history, the number one priority
for us is to be secure, that we have our independence,
that that we have that possibility to decide ourselves. That
(08:22):
is the most important thing. And next week, we will
actually celebrate the 6th of December, our Independence Day, which
is always the key day for the year. And we
are very proud to be independent and we are very
proud to also be a welfare society. But we have
to be wise because we know that we have aggressive neighbour,
(08:43):
we know that we have 1300 kilometres border with Russia.
So during the same time that we have educated our
citizens and building the welfare society, social and health care
systems and making sure that we have that well-being. At
the same time, we have always. First our military. And
we have made investments to our security because we know
(09:05):
that that if we don't do that, if we don't
maintain that resilience and that that, for example, defense forces,
the future might not be bright one for us. And
this is also why we are now joining Natal, because
we want to make sure that in the future there
won't ever again be war on Finnish soil.
Michael Fullilove (09:26):
So let me ask you about NATO, because you're right.
Finland's always taken a muscular approach to its own security,
standing on its own feet. But even as late as
last year, it probably would have been unthinkable to most
that Finland and Sweden would join NATO. I think you
and I were discussing a poll this week that said
that I think 85% of Finns approve of the decision
(09:46):
to seek membership of NATO. Tell us a bit about
how your government made this transition this year. How did
you get to such a strong national support for such
an important, consequential decision?
Sanna Marin (09:59):
Well, I think that the mentality and the opinions of
Finnish people changed immediately when Russia attacked Ukraine. I just
told you that that as Finns, the most important thing is
to make sure that our nation and our citizens are
safe and secure. And up till the 24th of February,
(10:21):
the way to deal with us was to have working
bilateral relations, relations with Russia to be not part of
NATO with close partners, but not a member of of NATO.
So that was the way to secure our nation. That
was the best way to secure a nation. We had
the possibility to apply NATO membership, and this is written
(10:44):
in our foreign and security policy papers. So that was
always an option but wasn't discussed. But after Russia attacked Ukraine,
I think the mentality of people changed immediately. I noticed
it changed for me a bit earlier. But but but still,
it shifted overnight, I would say. And then we had
(11:08):
the process during the spring of joining NATOs to gather
all the institutions the president, the government, the parliament, but
also all the political parties to have this process together,
the building that kind of not unanimity, but very large
acceptance of of joining NATO. And out of 200, 100
(11:32):
188 parliamentarian voted in favor of applying NATO membership because
we were on the same page. We had that discussion.
And we we work together very closely like we always
do when it comes to foreign and security policy. We
are a small country and we are next to Russia.
So it's in our interests and our it secures our
(11:55):
position that we are unanimous when it comes to foreign
and security policy. This is also something that Finland is
known for, for its unanimity or this large support of
all the political actors and also the citizens when it
comes to foreign and security policy.
Michael Fullilove (12:16):
And what kind of NATO member would would Finland be?
Would you send your forces to exercise with other NATO countries?
Would you fully integrate your military with other NATO forces?
Sanna Marin (12:27):
Well, we would be a full member. We would, of course,
have the discussion later after we will join. We will
have the discussion later, for example, whether or not there
should be nuclear weapons in Finnish soil or permanent basis, etc..
I don't think that there are any one there want
(12:48):
us to have those. But but we will have that
kind of sorts of discussions later. It's not actively discussed.
Now we are focusing on applying the NATO membership and
we will be a security provider to Natal. We have
extensive armed forces in Finland. We have a lot of capabilities.
We are already spending over 2% of our nation's GDP
(13:12):
to defense, so we are a strong player when it
comes to defence and security. So we would be a
security provider and we also are working closely together with
Sweden that applied at the same time and we had
very good cooperation and similar kind of process during the
the spring and have very good connections with our Swedish colleagues.
(13:33):
And they will also bring security tonight. They have, for example,
very good defense industry when it comes to submarines and
and planes, young and old.
Michael Fullilove (13:48):
Well, thank you for mentioning mentioning submarines, because I want
to ask you about I want to ask you about.
Sanna Marin (13:52):
I thought I could lead you there because I know
you ask .
Michael Fullilove (13:56):
Very helpful. Now, I want to ask you about AUKUS.
I know that not everybody in Europe was was excited
when AUKUS was announced and President Macron was very disappointed.
And I'm sure you don't want to get involved in
too much commentary on Australia's arrangements. But as a as
a small country that's right next to Russia, can you
understand why in the face of a more assertive China,
(14:21):
a country like Australia would want to tighten its connections
to the United States and develop a deterrent capability like
nuclear propelled conventionally armed submarines, Does it make intuitive sense
to you?
Sanna Marin (14:34):
Well, I won't go to details. I would only say
that the decisions are made. I think we should focus
on the future. And it's very important that we would
be able to negotiate the free trade agreement that would
boost our both economies. That would be very important for
for European Union, for Australia. And we need that tight
(14:54):
cooperation between our countries and between our areas. But of course,
I understand out of the August deal, of course I
understand the worries that that you have on China. I
think we all have worries when it comes to China
and we must make sure that we don't have that
(15:14):
kind of political dependencies when it comes to China. I
don't mean that we shouldn't trade or that we shouldn't
have connections to China. Of course we do. That's a
reality and we will also have those in the future.
But those critical dependencies that we must get rid of
so that we have also alternative trading routes that we
(15:35):
have the know how the knowledge, the new technologies for
our digitalized societies, because we cannot be dependent, for example,
microchips or semiconductors or or any kind of critical technologies.
When it comes to authoritarian countries. Because if those trading
would be caught suddenly, then we would be in trouble.
Our businesses, our industries will be in trouble. Our total
(15:59):
whole economies will collapse. So it would be only wise
to make sure in advance that you don't have critical
dependencies that will cripple your entire economy. If there would
be some kind of willingness to do so.
Michael Fullilove (16:15):
Let me ask you more broadly about China. How do
you see China as a as a global player? I mean,
how do you balance the different elements of China's identity?
I know you've been somewhat critical, I think, of some
of human the human rights record of China in the past.
On the other hand, it's a huge global economy. It's
powering economic growth. It's essential to solving the dilemma of
(16:37):
climate change. What are your observations about China? How do
you think about China as an actor on the global stage?
Sanna Marin (16:44):
China is a key player. China is a big country
and a key player. We need China when it comes
to fighting climate change. When it comes to fighting biodiversity,
we need China to defend multilateral international order. I think
one of our biggest challenge that is show now because
of the Russian war in Ukraine, is that the international
(17:04):
rules based order is being challenged. There are countries like
Russia that is now putting the rules aside and doing
whatever they want. And this is something that we cannot approve.
So we must stand behind our values and understand that
there is a war and fight concerning value is going
(17:25):
on in the world. And we have to make sure
that our values, the democratic values, will win. So we
cannot be naive. This is the time. This is the
time to stop being naive. Also, when it comes to China,
and that is why I'm speaking so much about European
strategic autonomy, that doesn't mean that we would close all
doors and windows to everybody else. It doesn't mean that
(17:48):
it means that actually we need much more deeper cooperation
between our democratic partners like Australia. We should have that
free trade agreement. We should have that that connection when
it comes to, for example, raw materials or new technologies,
we should have those tight, tight connections with democratic countries
and cut the dependencies on authoritarian regimes where they are critical.
Michael Fullilove (18:12):
You mentioned climate change and your government has been a
world leader in terms of setting a very ambitious target there.
How does the war in Ukraine, how is that impeding
multilateral action on climate change? Isn't it harder to to
make progress at Sharm el-Sheikh, to make progress in multilateral
(18:34):
discussions when you're when Russia is behaving in the way
that it does? How do you how do you how
do you prevent the focus on the urgent crowding out
the important?
Sanna Marin (18:47):
Well, I think climate is an urgent issue and we
should do more and we should do faster. That's a given.
And it's in everybody's interests to make. Sure that that
the warmth of of our planet is stopped by 1.5 degrees.
It will cost us a lot if we won't manage that.
(19:08):
So it's in everybody's interests. It's in China's interests, it's
in Russia's interest, it's in the Europeans and Australians interest
to make sure that we will stop climate change. And
we should also see all the potential we see as
fins as our nation wants to reach the climate target
of becoming climate neutral. But it doesn't revive that it
will boost our economy when climate change is the biggest
(19:31):
threat that we face. Actually tackling and fighting climate change
is the biggest opportunity for economic growth, creating transition, digital
transition and making sure that our economies, our businesses are sustainable.
It's a big boost for for our economies. So we
want to show that that when you are fighting climate change,
(19:52):
you're going to create new, greener jobs. You can have
your people's wellbeing to the next level that you will
thrive as a society. So we want to show an example.
Michael Fullilove (20:05):
All right. One more question on politics, and I'm going
to go to the audience. You're going to meet with
the Australian prime minister, Mr. Albanese, straight after this event.
He leads a government made up of one political party.
You lead a coalition government made up of five political parties.
Are you a little bit jealous?
Sanna Marin (20:23):
Well, of course there are a lot of negotiations when
you have many partners in the government, but this is
the Finnish way. We have always have coalition governments and
there are always, of course, problems when it comes to coalitions,
different ideologies, different views on issues. And you have to
(20:44):
find a way to have compromises and trying to find
consensus on different issues from different also from different multiple.
Molly is a point of view. So of course there
are always difficulties, but I think there are also difficulties
when it comes to two governments with only one party
because then you have the same difficulties within the party. So,
(21:07):
so I think the number of problems is always the same,
whether you have a coalition government or a government with
only one party.
Michael Fullilove (21:14):
We never have factional problems in Australian politics. That never happens.
All right. I'm going to take some questions from the
audience first hand I saw with Susannah Patton.
S3 (21:22):
Thank you very much, Prime Minister. Many people in Australia
want to see European countries play a greater role in
the Indo-Pacific. And many European countries have announced policies to
do so. I'd be interested in your reflections on how
the conflict in Ukraine could affect prospects for greater European
engagement in our region here.
Sanna Marin (21:41):
Well, I think it will create more opportunities also to
tighten our cooperation. As I mentioned, we have to learn
lessons from this war. And one lesson is that we
need our partners, we need our partners. We need that
cooperation between democratic countries. I think Australia and New Zealand
are a key players in this part of the world.
(22:03):
But we also need Japan, we need South Korea, we
need India, we need many others on board for making
sure that there are strength in democracies, that we are
defending our values, that we are defending, for example, the
international rules based order. There must be rules in the
world that we all obey. If there is not, there's
(22:25):
only chaos. And we cannot we cannot allow that kind
of ideology win. So so I think this is also
a opportunity to tighten those relations and partnerships and cooperation.
So so I think Europe will and wants to have
a foot also in the Indo-Pacific and the free trade
(22:47):
agreements that we already set up with with New Zealand
and hopefully soon with Australia. Those only show that that
we want to strengthen our partnerships.
S3 (22:57):
Isobel Roe from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I just wanted
to ask what sort of responsibility do you believe that
China has to rein in Russia and how much leverage
do you think that Xi Jinping has over Putin?
Sanna Marin (23:10):
Well, I think China could play an important role to
stop the war if they want it, and it's up
to China how they want to act concerning the war.
But we shouldn't only rely on that about China or
any others. We should make sure that we are stronger.
(23:31):
And now I must be very honest, brutally honest with you.
Europe isn't strong enough right now. We would be in
trouble without the United States involving the war in Ukraine.
The United States have given a lot of weapons, a
lot of financial aid, a lot of humanitarian aid to Ukraine.
And Europe isn't strong enough yet. And we have to
(23:51):
make sure that we are also building those capabilities when
it comes to European defence, European defence industry. And making
sure that we could cope in different kind of situations.
I have met many politicians from United States and and
they all think that that that Europe should be stronger.
They don't see it as opposing United States. But they
(24:15):
she sees as partners. And I think they think that
you need to be strong to be a strong partner.
So I am fully supporting the European strategic autonomy. But
we should build our own resilience and also our own
capabilities when it comes to defence, but also many other matters.
Michael Fullilove (24:32):
Speaking of the United States, your prime ministership has covered
both the the administration of Mr. Trump and the administration. Mr. Biden.
Have you seen what's the biggest change that you've noticed
in US foreign policy over that period? Do you think Mr. Trump,
for example, would have played, would have supported Ukraine as
strongly as Mr. Biden has?
Sanna Marin (24:51):
Well, of course, it's it's very difficult to say what
would have happened if that the current administration wouldn't be
be in place. We are very grateful to the United
States that they are so involved in in the war
in Ukraine. Their their value is very crucial right now. And,
of course, we hope that they will continue supporting supporting
(25:14):
Ukraine weapons and help of of all sorts. I'm very
happy that the Biden administration has come back, that the
international fora that they are now involved in international affairs
and and that they are keen of building partnerships. And I,
of course, hope that also in the future United States
(25:34):
would want to be partners and want to build that
cooperation between Europe and and the United States, but also
all others. We need more cooperation. We don't need less.
We need more. The current administration is involving involved in
in these areas.
Michael Fullilove (25:53):
Alright, so Rory Medcalf with his hand up down the front.
S4 (25:57):
Thank you. Prime Minister, congratulations. I should say congratulations on
Finland joining Naito, but I feel like congratulating Naito on
joining Finland. Look, my question is really about some of
the qualities that Finland brings, I think, to the international scene.
A lot of us in Australia are learning a lot
about Finland at the moment. But one lesson that struck
me is the culture of transparency in your country. I
(26:19):
think the culture of some observers would say quite radical
transparency seems to be a real asset in national security,
countering foreign interference and so forth. I just wonder if
you could say a little about how transparency works in
your country.
Sanna Marin (26:33):
Well, Finland is a transparent country and we have very
high rankings when it comes, for example, the freedom of
the press. And and and we have very low, low
I don't remember the word, but we don't have corruption,
for example, at that kind of corruption. And so so
(26:54):
we are very transparent. And we are also, I think,
very down to earth. For example, politicians as politicians, we
are ordinary people. And when we are meeting the citizens everywhere,
we are going to the public libraries and our kids
go to public schools and and, and daycare and and
(27:14):
we are meeting people. So I think it's also very
important that we have a society, welfare society, but also
that the leaders of the decision makers are involved at
the same life as ordinary people. I think that tells
a good story of your of your country, that it's
safe and secure, that everybody is on the same line,
whether you are prime minister or president or or whether
(27:37):
you your work in the private sector, for example, or
be a teacher or anything. So I think we have
a transparent country and very good country. I'm very proud
of Finland.
S3 (27:49):
Helen Sullivan from the Guardian's Foreign Desk. I wanted to
ask of the other fears Finland has when it comes
to Russia and what, you know, the leverage that they
have with you. What is the what is the most
real you know, what is the kind of likeliest scenario
that you are planning for.
Sanna Marin (28:05):
What do you mean?
S3 (28:06):
For what Russia could do in Finland. So, for example,
you're building the fence.
Sanna Marin (28:10):
Well, we have a quite extensive military forces. So so
we are not expecting them to engage threat in that account.
And we are not seeing anything any military action near
the Finnish border. Actually, I think most of the troops
(28:30):
are now in Ukraine. So there are less lesser, less
Russian troops than than before. And also the situation in
the border is quite calm. But of course, we are
prepared of different kind of hyper threats that we might see.
We all know that that cyber security is very important nowadays.
(28:51):
So we are preparing for different kind of cyber attacks
like also. All other countries are prepared of that. We
are prepared for different kind of hybrid threats, misinformation that's
been spread all over the the dark web and also
in social media platforms. So there are a lot of
(29:15):
a lot of possibilities to make a disturbance within societies.
But I think the most important thing is to give
when it comes to, for example, misinformation. The most important
thing is to give people the right information. And we
have good journalists. We have good media that will provide
that that information. And we also have very good civil
(29:37):
servants and and institutions in Finland that will give the
people the right, the right information at the right time.
And people trust these institutions that it's also very crucial.
For example, I can give you an example of that.
There were this this case in Finland where there were
(29:59):
spreading rumors that there was something going on in the
Finnish border, that there were these big lines of cars
and people coming to Finland sites because of more and
because of the the the Putin has decided to gather
more more troops within Russia. So where there were this
rumors spreading around the social media in Finland. But right
(30:22):
away the the border control the Finnish authorities are territory authority.
How do you state.
Michael Fullilove (30:28):
Authorities.
Sanna Marin (30:29):
Authorities. They immediately put the right information there. They showed
showed the footage in the border. There are no lines.
There are no cars. There are no no troops or
people coming to Finland. And they just told this is
the situation right now in the border. So the rumor died.
But this is only one example. What kind of incidents
(30:53):
there might be?
Michael Fullilove (30:54):
Speaking of Mr. Putin, many of us have been blacklisted
by the Russian state this year for things that we've said.
But that's nothing compared to you. For example, you must
drive him crazy, for which congratulations. I mean, all these
strong leaders on on his borders, he probably expected these
(31:16):
leaders to go along with the war, not to not
to fight back. Is that your sense?
Sanna Marin (31:22):
Well, I think when it comes to the war in Ukraine,
the nations that are closest to Ukraine, the nations that
are that has border with Russia, they are the most
toughest ones. And I think and I have said publicly
that we should have listened to our Baltic and Polish
friends much sooner. We have had many strategic discussions in
(31:44):
the European Council of Russia and and the Polish and
the Baltics have all always said that. But you don't
understand the logic of Putin. You don't understand the logic
of Russia. And for example, for a long time, Europe
was building a strategy towards Russia to close our economic ties,
(32:05):
to buy energy from Russia to close in those economic ties.
And and we thought that this would prevent the war,
that we would have such a close ties to Russia
that it would be totally madness to to go to
war with with any European countries. But this was proven
entirely wrong. The thinking that we had and the police
(32:28):
of the Baltics, they said that you don't understand the
logic behind Putin. He doesn't care about those economic ties.
He only cares about about Russia and the Russian view
of Europe. And they view Ukraine as part of Russia.
They view it as a part of Russia. And that's
why they're attacking. They don't care about their economic ties.
They don't care about the sanctions. They don't care any
(32:50):
of that, I don't think. We have to make sure
that they don't have those resources to continue the war,
that they will they will lose. So the sanctions are
very important, but their mentality is very different. And they're
the ones that are very close to Russia. They are
very tough. And and I have very, very top, top
friends as leaders in Europe, for example, the Estonian prime
(33:13):
minister us. I think she is great and speaks so
strongly when it comes to Russia. Are your kiss private citizen.
This is a bit of a left field question, but
towards the end of next year we are heading for
a referendum on an Indigenous voice to Parliament. I know
that in Finland there is the Sami Assembly. I know
(33:33):
that there's some legislation in front of the head of
school and at the moment on some assembly, I was
wondering if there is anything you could tell us about
how we should not be afraid of a voice to Parliament? Well,
thank you for the question. We have indigenous people in Finland,
we have the Sami people, and actually we have now
presented a law, a bill to the Parliament to strengthen their. Autonomy.
(33:59):
Autonomy and their their place in the country. And but,
of course, we also have much to do. We have
to be very frank that we haven't in history in
the past. We haven't done right when it comes to
indigenous people. I think this is also the history of Australia.
I think if this is the history in everywhere and
(34:21):
we have to make sure that in the future Indigenous
people will have full rights and and also a much
more autonomous say in their own matters.
Michael Fullilove (34:32):
PM I'm going to take the liberty of asking the
last question, if I can. I asked a Swedish friend
what I should ask you about and he said I
should ask you about the Finnish concept of sisu, which
is will or guts or perseverance or tenacity. Tell us
a bit about that. Is that a key for understanding
Finland and perhaps a key for understanding you?
Sanna Marin (34:52):
Well, that's very interesting that your Swedish colleague asked me
if I think that there's something about Sweden that they
have to ask. Ask you, what is Finnish sisu? So
it means guts. It means guts and spirit. It means that.
And I can tell you that the Finland has gone
through many hardships. We have have been in war with
(35:16):
Russia and we have had many hardships within our history.
And so means that whatever comes, whatever comes, we go
through it. We as a nation, we will survive. And
we don't dwell on the past. We look forward. We
look forward and and do our jobs and make sure
that our children have a better life in the future
than than their parents had before them. So so I
(35:39):
think she should tell us something about not to dwell
on the past and make sure that you can cope
in any situation and that you will build a brighter future.
Michael Fullilove (35:50):
PM, I want to thank you for taking the time
to speak to the Institute today. I'm also happy to
hear a bit about sisu and I think everybody here
can recognize that you have guts and spirit and sisu
in spades. If I can try my Finnish again. Prime Minister,
thank you very much. Thank you.
(36:12):
Sanna Marin was our guest at the Lowy Institute in Sydney
on the 2nd of December. You can find full video
and audio recordings of the event at the Lowy Institute website.
The Director's Chair is a podcast from the Lowy Institute
produced on Gadigal land. Producers for this episode were Josh
Goding and Shane McLeod, with research by David Vallance. If
(36:36):
you've enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating or
leave a review in your app. It helps other people
to find the podcast. You can listen to all our
previous episodes at lowyinstitute.org/directorschair . I'm Michael Fullilove. Thanks for listening.
Hello, I'm Michael Fullilove. A special episode today with a world
leader who's making her mark by standing up to the
aggressor next door, and taking her country into NATO.
Sanna Marin (00:11):
For a long time, Europe was building a strategy towards
Russia to close our economic ties, and we thought that
this would prevent the war. But this was proven entirely wrong.
He doesn't care about those economic ties. He only cares
about about Russia and the Russian view of Europe. And
(00:31):
they view Ukraine as part of Russia.
Michael Fullilove (00:35):
The Prime Minister of Finland, Sanna Marin, is my guest
for this episode of The Director's Chair.
I'm Michael Fullilove. And for this special episode, I'm delighted
to feature a conversation with Sanna Marin, the first prime
minister of Finland, ever to visit Australia. I don't think
it's a coincidence that the PM's visit is happening now,
(00:57):
even as Finland is on the frontline of the struggle
to defend Ukraine from Russia. President Putin's aggression has reminded
all of us in the world's democracies how much we
have in common with each other. Whether it's prime ministers,
foreign ministers or thinktank directors, we're all reaching out to
our counterparts in like minded countries. The connections between democracies
(01:21):
are quickening.
Sanna Marin has been involved in politics from the age
of 20. She served as Minister of Transport and Communications
before her appointment as Finland's youngest prime minister in 2019.
The PM was our guest at the Lowy Institute for
an address titled How a Strong Europe Can Contribute to
(01:41):
a More Secure World. Ms Marin and I sat down in
front of the live audience for a conversation afterwards.
Thank you for agreeing to take some questions. Your country
shares a 1300 kilometer border with Russia. It's often said
that the first responsibility of any prime minister or any
(02:04):
leader is to keep her country or his country secure
and safe. How is your conception of your job changed
since February?
Sanna Marin (02:14):
Well, of course, we are all in very difficult situation
in Europe because of the war of Ukraine. And of course,
it changed the agenda of our government. Of all the
key decisions to parliament. And and we also have a
president in Finland that has the key role in in
(02:34):
security and foreign policy. So, of course, all of our
focus is now on the war in the war and
also how what it means to Europe in many ways.
And as I said in my speech, I think we
have to learn lessons from this war. We cannot be
dependent on critical matters now. We are too dependent on
(02:56):
energy coming from Russia. And that actually means very concrete things.
It means that we are financing the war every day
because we are buying energy from Russia and we have
to make sure that we don't have those kind of
dependencies in the future. But foreign and security policy are
now the key areas that we are engaged every day
(03:17):
in our government and also in our societies in many ways.
Michael Fullilove (03:22):
Or I'm going to come back to those vulnerabilities that
you mentioned a little bit later. But first of all,
let me ask you about President Zelenskyy. In October, I
was lucky enough to host him on this stage, albeit
by Zoom. Of course, you met with him in Kiev
earlier in the year. You were one of the first
world leaders to go to cave to meet him. What
were your observations of him as a leader and as
(03:43):
a as a fellow politician? I guess you have a
particular appreciation for the task he has. So how have
you appreciated how he's gone about doing his job?
Sanna Marin (03:52):
Well, I've met President Zelenskyy many times live and also.
Zoom and and and teams as we all have been
doing during COVID as well. And he has been participating
in many European Council meetings as well, telling us the
situation in Ukraine. And it was really memorable, the visit
(04:16):
to Kiev, Ukraine during the war. And I remember vividly
about the different sides of Kiev and during my visit,
President Zelensky and also Prime Minister Mikhail and and others
from the government were in the government buildings, bunkers. There
were sand, sand sacks everywhere. And and it was very secure.
(04:40):
The the holes were dark so that you couldn't spot
where we were moving. But at the same time, people
on the streets, on the parks, they were trying to
live a normal life as possible. So there are these
different scenes in Kiev and in Ukraine. As we speak,
(05:02):
President Zelenskyy is a very brave, courageous man. And I
think the whole Ukrainian nation, they are so courageous right now,
fighting for their freedom, fighting for their serenity and their
their nation as such. So I think we have to
support them every way we can. They are so heroic
(05:23):
and we must make sure that they will win.
Michael Fullilove (05:25):
I think in that visit you also visited Bucha.
Sanna Marin (05:28):
Yes. And Irpin as well.
Michael Fullilove (05:30):
And how did how did those visits that the revelation
of the darkest the darkest sides of this conflict, how
did that affect you?
Sanna Marin (05:38):
Well, we visited Irpin and Bucha and saw the mass graves. Saw
what Russians have had done and I'm thinking I was
thinking then and thinking still about the regions where there
are still Russian military troops. And we have seen terrible footages,
we have heard terrible stories, and we know that there
(06:00):
are rapes that are actively part of the war and
there are tortured, tortured civilians. There are these terrible actions
happening every day. And the Ukrainians, they are not fighting
for themselves. They are also fighting for the European values,
democratic values. And we must make sure that they will
(06:22):
not only win, but they will thrive in the future.
We want to make sure that they can become members
of European Union, that they will have a bright future
ahead of them. I remember also that Finland were in war.
We have been in war with Russia and our story
after the war when we gained our independence is a
(06:46):
successful one. We have built our welfare nation, we have
educated our people. We have a good perspective to the
future also from from this point. So we have to
make sure that also the Ukrainians have that hope that
they will have a bright future ahead of them. They
are now fighting for their lives. They are fighting for
their freedom, but they are also fighting for a better future.
(07:09):
This is the hope that that gives them strength right now.
And we have to make sure that we will boost
that hope, that we will help them and that we
will give be by side by their sides the building
this this better future.
Michael Fullilove (07:23):
Let me ask you about Finland. Given Finland's strategic location
and give it its given its history alongside its remarkable
social democracy, Finland is also a remarkably resilient country, a
country that is able to mobilize hundreds of thousands of
of people from for military service and do a lot
(07:45):
to defend itself. So tell us, as a progressive leader,
how how has Finland managed to do both of these things?
A strong social democracy, but strong national security at the
same time?
Sanna Marin (07:57):
Well, I think if you ask Finnish people what is
the most most important thing in our nation and what
we want to make sure that the future, it's to
be secure because of our history, the number one priority
for us is to be secure, that we have our independence,
that that we have that possibility to decide ourselves. That
(08:22):
is the most important thing. And next week, we will
actually celebrate the 6th of December, our Independence Day, which
is always the key day for the year. And we
are very proud to be independent and we are very
proud to also be a welfare society. But we have
to be wise because we know that we have aggressive neighbour,
(08:43):
we know that we have 1300 kilometres border with Russia.
So during the same time that we have educated our
citizens and building the welfare society, social and health care
systems and making sure that we have that well-being. At
the same time, we have always. First our military. And
we have made investments to our security because we know
(09:05):
that that if we don't do that, if we don't
maintain that resilience and that that, for example, defense forces,
the future might not be bright one for us. And
this is also why we are now joining Natal, because
we want to make sure that in the future there
won't ever again be war on Finnish soil.
Michael Fullilove (09:26):
So let me ask you about NATO, because you're right.
Finland's always taken a muscular approach to its own security,
standing on its own feet. But even as late as
last year, it probably would have been unthinkable to most
that Finland and Sweden would join NATO. I think you
and I were discussing a poll this week that said
that I think 85% of Finns approve of the decision
(09:46):
to seek membership of NATO. Tell us a bit about
how your government made this transition this year. How did
you get to such a strong national support for such
an important, consequential decision?
Sanna Marin (09:59):
Well, I think that the mentality and the opinions of
Finnish people changed immediately when Russia attacked Ukraine. I just
told you that that as Finns, the most important thing is
to make sure that our nation and our citizens are
safe and secure. And up till the 24th of February,
(10:21):
the way to deal with us was to have working
bilateral relations, relations with Russia to be not part of
NATO with close partners, but not a member of of NATO.
So that was the way to secure our nation. That
was the best way to secure a nation. We had
the possibility to apply NATO membership, and this is written
(10:44):
in our foreign and security policy papers. So that was
always an option but wasn't discussed. But after Russia attacked Ukraine,
I think the mentality of people changed immediately. I noticed
it changed for me a bit earlier. But but but still,
it shifted overnight, I would say. And then we had
(11:08):
the process during the spring of joining NATOs to gather
all the institutions the president, the government, the parliament, but
also all the political parties to have this process together,
the building that kind of not unanimity, but very large
acceptance of of joining NATO. And out of 200, 100
(11:32):
188 parliamentarian voted in favor of applying NATO membership because
we were on the same page. We had that discussion.
And we we work together very closely like we always
do when it comes to foreign and security policy. We
are a small country and we are next to Russia.
So it's in our interests and our it secures our
(11:55):
position that we are unanimous when it comes to foreign
and security policy. This is also something that Finland is
known for, for its unanimity or this large support of
all the political actors and also the citizens when it
comes to foreign and security policy.
Michael Fullilove (12:16):
And what kind of NATO member would would Finland be?
Would you send your forces to exercise with other NATO countries?
Would you fully integrate your military with other NATO forces?
Sanna Marin (12:27):
Well, we would be a full member. We would, of course,
have the discussion later after we will join. We will
have the discussion later, for example, whether or not there
should be nuclear weapons in Finnish soil or permanent basis, etc..
I don't think that there are any one there want
(12:48):
us to have those. But but we will have that
kind of sorts of discussions later. It's not actively discussed.
Now we are focusing on applying the NATO membership and
we will be a security provider to Natal. We have
extensive armed forces in Finland. We have a lot of capabilities.
We are already spending over 2% of our nation's GDP
(13:12):
to defense, so we are a strong player when it
comes to defence and security. So we would be a
security provider and we also are working closely together with
Sweden that applied at the same time and we had
very good cooperation and similar kind of process during the
the spring and have very good connections with our Swedish colleagues.
(13:33):
And they will also bring security tonight. They have, for example,
very good defense industry when it comes to submarines and
and planes, young and old.
Michael Fullilove (13:48):
Well, thank you for mentioning mentioning submarines, because I want
to ask you about I want to ask you about.
Sanna Marin (13:52):
I thought I could lead you there because I know
you ask .
Michael Fullilove (13:56):
Very helpful. Now, I want to ask you about AUKUS.
I know that not everybody in Europe was was excited
when AUKUS was announced and President Macron was very disappointed.
And I'm sure you don't want to get involved in
too much commentary on Australia's arrangements. But as a as
a small country that's right next to Russia, can you
understand why in the face of a more assertive China,
(14:21):
a country like Australia would want to tighten its connections
to the United States and develop a deterrent capability like
nuclear propelled conventionally armed submarines, Does it make intuitive sense
to you?
Sanna Marin (14:34):
Well, I won't go to details. I would only say
that the decisions are made. I think we should focus
on the future. And it's very important that we would
be able to negotiate the free trade agreement that would
boost our both economies. That would be very important for
for European Union, for Australia. And we need that tight
(14:54):
cooperation between our countries and between our areas. But of course,
I understand out of the August deal, of course I
understand the worries that that you have on China. I
think we all have worries when it comes to China
and we must make sure that we don't have that
(15:14):
kind of political dependencies when it comes to China. I
don't mean that we shouldn't trade or that we shouldn't
have connections to China. Of course we do. That's a
reality and we will also have those in the future.
But those critical dependencies that we must get rid of
so that we have also alternative trading routes that we
(15:35):
have the know how the knowledge, the new technologies for
our digitalized societies, because we cannot be dependent, for example,
microchips or semiconductors or or any kind of critical technologies.
When it comes to authoritarian countries. Because if those trading
would be caught suddenly, then we would be in trouble.
Our businesses, our industries will be in trouble. Our total
(15:59):
whole economies will collapse. So it would be only wise
to make sure in advance that you don't have critical
dependencies that will cripple your entire economy. If there would
be some kind of willingness to do so.
Michael Fullilove (16:15):
Let me ask you more broadly about China. How do
you see China as a as a global player? I mean,
how do you balance the different elements of China's identity?
I know you've been somewhat critical, I think, of some
of human the human rights record of China in the past.
On the other hand, it's a huge global economy. It's
powering economic growth. It's essential to solving the dilemma of
(16:37):
climate change. What are your observations about China? How do
you think about China as an actor on the global stage?
Sanna Marin (16:44):
China is a key player. China is a big country
and a key player. We need China when it comes
to fighting climate change. When it comes to fighting biodiversity,
we need China to defend multilateral international order. I think
one of our biggest challenge that is show now because
of the Russian war in Ukraine, is that the international
(17:04):
rules based order is being challenged. There are countries like
Russia that is now putting the rules aside and doing
whatever they want. And this is something that we cannot approve.
So we must stand behind our values and understand that
there is a war and fight concerning value is going
(17:25):
on in the world. And we have to make sure
that our values, the democratic values, will win. So we
cannot be naive. This is the time. This is the
time to stop being naive. Also, when it comes to China,
and that is why I'm speaking so much about European
strategic autonomy, that doesn't mean that we would close all
doors and windows to everybody else. It doesn't mean that
(17:48):
it means that actually we need much more deeper cooperation
between our democratic partners like Australia. We should have that
free trade agreement. We should have that that connection when
it comes to, for example, raw materials or new technologies,
we should have those tight, tight connections with democratic countries
and cut the dependencies on authoritarian regimes where they are critical.
Michael Fullilove (18:12):
You mentioned climate change and your government has been a
world leader in terms of setting a very ambitious target there.
How does the war in Ukraine, how is that impeding
multilateral action on climate change? Isn't it harder to to
make progress at Sharm el-Sheikh, to make progress in multilateral
(18:34):
discussions when you're when Russia is behaving in the way
that it does? How do you how do you how
do you prevent the focus on the urgent crowding out
the important?
Sanna Marin (18:47):
Well, I think climate is an urgent issue and we
should do more and we should do faster. That's a given.
And it's in everybody's interests to make. Sure that that
the warmth of of our planet is stopped by 1.5 degrees.
It will cost us a lot if we won't manage that.
(19:08):
So it's in everybody's interests. It's in China's interests, it's
in Russia's interest, it's in the Europeans and Australians interest
to make sure that we will stop climate change. And
we should also see all the potential we see as
fins as our nation wants to reach the climate target
of becoming climate neutral. But it doesn't revive that it
will boost our economy when climate change is the biggest
(19:31):
threat that we face. Actually tackling and fighting climate change
is the biggest opportunity for economic growth, creating transition, digital
transition and making sure that our economies, our businesses are sustainable.
It's a big boost for for our economies. So we
want to show that that when you are fighting climate change,
(19:52):
you're going to create new, greener jobs. You can have
your people's wellbeing to the next level that you will
thrive as a society. So we want to show an example.
Michael Fullilove (20:05):
All right. One more question on politics, and I'm going
to go to the audience. You're going to meet with
the Australian prime minister, Mr. Albanese, straight after this event.
He leads a government made up of one political party.
You lead a coalition government made up of five political parties.
Are you a little bit jealous?
Sanna Marin (20:23):
Well, of course there are a lot of negotiations when
you have many partners in the government, but this is
the Finnish way. We have always have coalition governments and
there are always, of course, problems when it comes to coalitions,
different ideologies, different views on issues. And you have to
(20:44):
find a way to have compromises and trying to find
consensus on different issues from different also from different multiple.
Molly is a point of view. So of course there
are always difficulties, but I think there are also difficulties
when it comes to two governments with only one party
because then you have the same difficulties within the party. So,
(21:07):
so I think the number of problems is always the same,
whether you have a coalition government or a government with
only one party.
Michael Fullilove (21:14):
We never have factional problems in Australian politics. That never happens.
All right. I'm going to take some questions from the
audience first hand I saw with Susannah Patton.
S3 (21:22):
Thank you very much, Prime Minister. Many people in Australia
want to see European countries play a greater role in
the Indo-Pacific. And many European countries have announced policies to
do so. I'd be interested in your reflections on how
the conflict in Ukraine could affect prospects for greater European
engagement in our region here.
Sanna Marin (21:41):
Well, I think it will create more opportunities also to
tighten our cooperation. As I mentioned, we have to learn
lessons from this war. And one lesson is that we
need our partners, we need our partners. We need that
cooperation between democratic countries. I think Australia and New Zealand
are a key players in this part of the world.
(22:03):
But we also need Japan, we need South Korea, we
need India, we need many others on board for making
sure that there are strength in democracies, that we are
defending our values, that we are defending, for example, the
international rules based order. There must be rules in the
world that we all obey. If there is not, there's
(22:25):
only chaos. And we cannot we cannot allow that kind
of ideology win. So so I think this is also
a opportunity to tighten those relations and partnerships and cooperation.
So so I think Europe will and wants to have
a foot also in the Indo-Pacific and the free trade
(22:47):
agreements that we already set up with with New Zealand
and hopefully soon with Australia. Those only show that that
we want to strengthen our partnerships.
S3 (22:57):
Isobel Roe from the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. I just wanted
to ask what sort of responsibility do you believe that
China has to rein in Russia and how much leverage
do you think that Xi Jinping has over Putin?
Sanna Marin (23:10):
Well, I think China could play an important role to
stop the war if they want it, and it's up
to China how they want to act concerning the war.
But we shouldn't only rely on that about China or
any others. We should make sure that we are stronger.
(23:31):
And now I must be very honest, brutally honest with you.
Europe isn't strong enough right now. We would be in
trouble without the United States involving the war in Ukraine.
The United States have given a lot of weapons, a
lot of financial aid, a lot of humanitarian aid to Ukraine.
And Europe isn't strong enough yet. And we have to
(23:51):
make sure that we are also building those capabilities when
it comes to European defence, European defence industry. And making
sure that we could cope in different kind of situations.
I have met many politicians from United States and and
they all think that that that Europe should be stronger.
They don't see it as opposing United States. But they
(24:15):
she sees as partners. And I think they think that
you need to be strong to be a strong partner.
So I am fully supporting the European strategic autonomy. But
we should build our own resilience and also our own
capabilities when it comes to defence, but also many other matters.
Michael Fullilove (24:32):
Speaking of the United States, your prime ministership has covered
both the the administration of Mr. Trump and the administration. Mr. Biden.
Have you seen what's the biggest change that you've noticed
in US foreign policy over that period? Do you think Mr. Trump,
for example, would have played, would have supported Ukraine as
strongly as Mr. Biden has?
Sanna Marin (24:51):
Well, of course, it's it's very difficult to say what
would have happened if that the current administration wouldn't be
be in place. We are very grateful to the United
States that they are so involved in in the war
in Ukraine. Their their value is very crucial right now. And,
of course, we hope that they will continue supporting supporting
(25:14):
Ukraine weapons and help of of all sorts. I'm very
happy that the Biden administration has come back, that the
international fora that they are now involved in international affairs
and and that they are keen of building partnerships. And I,
of course, hope that also in the future United States
(25:34):
would want to be partners and want to build that
cooperation between Europe and and the United States, but also
all others. We need more cooperation. We don't need less.
We need more. The current administration is involving involved in
in these areas.
Michael Fullilove (25:53):
Alright, so Rory Medcalf with his hand up down the front.
S4 (25:57):
Thank you. Prime Minister, congratulations. I should say congratulations on
Finland joining Naito, but I feel like congratulating Naito on
joining Finland. Look, my question is really about some of
the qualities that Finland brings, I think, to the international scene.
A lot of us in Australia are learning a lot
about Finland at the moment. But one lesson that struck
me is the culture of transparency in your country. I
(26:19):
think the culture of some observers would say quite radical
transparency seems to be a real asset in national security,
countering foreign interference and so forth. I just wonder if
you could say a little about how transparency works in
your country.
Sanna Marin (26:33):
Well, Finland is a transparent country and we have very
high rankings when it comes, for example, the freedom of
the press. And and and we have very low, low
I don't remember the word, but we don't have corruption,
for example, at that kind of corruption. And so so
(26:54):
we are very transparent. And we are also, I think,
very down to earth. For example, politicians as politicians, we
are ordinary people. And when we are meeting the citizens everywhere,
we are going to the public libraries and our kids
go to public schools and and, and daycare and and
(27:14):
we are meeting people. So I think it's also very
important that we have a society, welfare society, but also
that the leaders of the decision makers are involved at
the same life as ordinary people. I think that tells
a good story of your of your country, that it's
safe and secure, that everybody is on the same line,
whether you are prime minister or president or or whether
(27:37):
you your work in the private sector, for example, or
be a teacher or anything. So I think we have
a transparent country and very good country. I'm very proud
of Finland.
S3 (27:49):
Helen Sullivan from the Guardian's Foreign Desk. I wanted to
ask of the other fears Finland has when it comes
to Russia and what, you know, the leverage that they
have with you. What is the what is the most
real you know, what is the kind of likeliest scenario
that you are planning for.
Sanna Marin (28:05):
What do you mean?
S3 (28:06):
For what Russia could do in Finland. So, for example,
you're building the fence.
Sanna Marin (28:10):
Well, we have a quite extensive military forces. So so
we are not expecting them to engage threat in that account.
And we are not seeing anything any military action near
the Finnish border. Actually, I think most of the troops
(28:30):
are now in Ukraine. So there are less lesser, less
Russian troops than than before. And also the situation in
the border is quite calm. But of course, we are
prepared of different kind of hyper threats that we might see.
We all know that that cyber security is very important nowadays.
(28:51):
So we are preparing for different kind of cyber attacks
like also. All other countries are prepared of that. We
are prepared for different kind of hybrid threats, misinformation that's
been spread all over the the dark web and also
in social media platforms. So there are a lot of
(29:15):
a lot of possibilities to make a disturbance within societies.
But I think the most important thing is to give
when it comes to, for example, misinformation. The most important
thing is to give people the right information. And we
have good journalists. We have good media that will provide
that that information. And we also have very good civil
(29:37):
servants and and institutions in Finland that will give the
people the right, the right information at the right time.
And people trust these institutions that it's also very crucial.
For example, I can give you an example of that.
There were this this case in Finland where there were
(29:59):
spreading rumors that there was something going on in the
Finnish border, that there were these big lines of cars
and people coming to Finland sites because of more and
because of the the the Putin has decided to gather
more more troops within Russia. So where there were this
rumors spreading around the social media in Finland. But right
(30:22):
away the the border control the Finnish authorities are territory authority.
How do you state.
Michael Fullilove (30:28):
Authorities.
Sanna Marin (30:29):
Authorities. They immediately put the right information there. They showed
showed the footage in the border. There are no lines.
There are no cars. There are no no troops or
people coming to Finland. And they just told this is
the situation right now in the border. So the rumor died.
But this is only one example. What kind of incidents
(30:53):
there might be?
Michael Fullilove (30:54):
Speaking of Mr. Putin, many of us have been blacklisted
by the Russian state this year for things that we've said.
But that's nothing compared to you. For example, you must
drive him crazy, for which congratulations. I mean, all these
strong leaders on on his borders, he probably expected these
(31:16):
leaders to go along with the war, not to not
to fight back. Is that your sense?
Sanna Marin (31:22):
Well, I think when it comes to the war in Ukraine,
the nations that are closest to Ukraine, the nations that
are that has border with Russia, they are the most
toughest ones. And I think and I have said publicly
that we should have listened to our Baltic and Polish
friends much sooner. We have had many strategic discussions in
(31:44):
the European Council of Russia and and the Polish and
the Baltics have all always said that. But you don't
understand the logic of Putin. You don't understand the logic
of Russia. And for example, for a long time, Europe
was building a strategy towards Russia to close our economic ties,
(32:05):
to buy energy from Russia to close in those economic ties.
And and we thought that this would prevent the war,
that we would have such a close ties to Russia
that it would be totally madness to to go to
war with with any European countries. But this was proven
entirely wrong. The thinking that we had and the police
(32:28):
of the Baltics, they said that you don't understand the
logic behind Putin. He doesn't care about those economic ties.
He only cares about about Russia and the Russian view
of Europe. And they view Ukraine as part of Russia.
They view it as a part of Russia. And that's
why they're attacking. They don't care about their economic ties.
They don't care about the sanctions. They don't care any
(32:50):
of that, I don't think. We have to make sure
that they don't have those resources to continue the war,
that they will they will lose. So the sanctions are
very important, but their mentality is very different. And they're
the ones that are very close to Russia. They are
very tough. And and I have very, very top, top
friends as leaders in Europe, for example, the Estonian prime
(33:13):
minister us. I think she is great and speaks so
strongly when it comes to Russia. Are your kiss private citizen.
This is a bit of a left field question, but
towards the end of next year we are heading for
a referendum on an Indigenous voice to Parliament. I know
that in Finland there is the Sami Assembly. I know
(33:33):
that there's some legislation in front of the head of
school and at the moment on some assembly, I was
wondering if there is anything you could tell us about
how we should not be afraid of a voice to Parliament? Well,
thank you for the question. We have indigenous people in Finland,
we have the Sami people, and actually we have now
presented a law, a bill to the Parliament to strengthen their. Autonomy.
(33:59):
Autonomy and their their place in the country. And but,
of course, we also have much to do. We have
to be very frank that we haven't in history in
the past. We haven't done right when it comes to
indigenous people. I think this is also the history of Australia.
I think if this is the history in everywhere and
(34:21):
we have to make sure that in the future Indigenous
people will have full rights and and also a much
more autonomous say in their own matters.
Michael Fullilove (34:32):
PM I'm going to take the liberty of asking the
last question, if I can. I asked a Swedish friend
what I should ask you about and he said I
should ask you about the Finnish concept of sisu, which
is will or guts or perseverance or tenacity. Tell us
a bit about that. Is that a key for understanding
Finland and perhaps a key for understanding you?
Sanna Marin (34:52):
Well, that's very interesting that your Swedish colleague asked me
if I think that there's something about Sweden that they
have to ask. Ask you, what is Finnish sisu? So
it means guts. It means guts and spirit. It means that.
And I can tell you that the Finland has gone
through many hardships. We have have been in war with
(35:16):
Russia and we have had many hardships within our history.
And so means that whatever comes, whatever comes, we go
through it. We as a nation, we will survive. And
we don't dwell on the past. We look forward. We
look forward and and do our jobs and make sure
that our children have a better life in the future
than than their parents had before them. So so I
(35:39):
think she should tell us something about not to dwell
on the past and make sure that you can cope
in any situation and that you will build a brighter future.
Michael Fullilove (35:50):
PM, I want to thank you for taking the time
to speak to the Institute today. I'm also happy to
hear a bit about sisu and I think everybody here
can recognize that you have guts and spirit and sisu
in spades. If I can try my Finnish again. Prime Minister,
thank you very much. Thank you.
(36:12):
Sanna Marin was our guest at the Lowy Institute in Sydney
on the 2nd of December. You can find full video
and audio recordings of the event at the Lowy Institute website.
The Director's Chair is a podcast from the Lowy Institute
produced on Gadigal land. Producers for this episode were Josh
Goding and Shane McLeod, with research by David Vallance. If
(36:36):
you've enjoyed this episode, please give us a rating or
leave a review in your app. It helps other people
to find the podcast. You can listen to all our
previous episodes at lowyinstitute.org/directorschair . I'm Michael Fullilove. Thanks for listening.
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