Did 'woke culture' really kill the sitcom? Plus, the era of 'Mid TV'

Jerry Seinfeld ignited a fire when he blamed "the extreme left and PC crap" for ruining comedy in a recent interview with The New Yorker. But is comedy really dead, and if so, who is to blame?

In this week's episode Thomas, Osman, and a fresh-from-her-holiday Mel dissect comedy and cancel culture, before turning to their attention to the claim that we're in the era of so-called "Mid TV". Does Amazon Prime's new rom-com, The Idea of You, starring Anne Hathaway, show the demise or potential of television in 2024?

Plus, our pop culture recommendations for the week.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Usman Farooqi and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and
the Zendaya of this podcast. Mel Kambouris is here. She's
back baby, how you doing Mel?

S2 (00:24):
Ah I'm good. Look at this smile. I'm so happy
to be back with you guys, mainly to save you
from yourselves, but also just to hang out.

S1 (00:32):
Thomas is beaming. Thomas is beaming.

S3 (00:34):
I am very excited. I did miss Melanie. Uh, not
as much as the listeners, and especially my sister, who
kept texting me asking when Mel would be back on
the podcast.

S2 (00:42):
The best Mitchell in the family.

S1 (00:43):
You could have come back a week earlier when we
fumbled our way through a conversation about mothers in live
comedy spaces and, uh, the biggest woman pop star in
the history of the world. You know, I.

S2 (00:55):
Know I feel like I missed out on some subjects
where I really would have had a point of view. But,
I mean, you guys, you guys handled it, I'm sure.

S3 (01:01):
Well, I mean, you don't know if we handled it because.
And this is like, really doing my head in. Mel
refused to listen to the podcast while she was on holidays.

S2 (01:08):
I didn't refuse. It was just I knew if I
listened to it, I would kind of get sucked in
and I'd want to engage and I wouldn't be able
to tap out, and I kept I knew, I kept saying,
I'll do it, I'll do it, I'll do it. And
then I just never did it. So now I don't
know what you've said about me, what's slander, what lies
you've told, but I'm just going to have to let
it sit.

S1 (01:25):
Well, okay, so you weren't listening to the podcast, but
what were you doing? Can you tell us a bit
about this trip? What were the highlights?

S2 (01:31):
Oh, there was lots of lots of fun. So I
went to Dubai. I went to Paris, went to London,
they went to Singapore. So a little round trip. I
have to say one of the highlights was all the
plane films I got. Yeah. So it's a.

S1 (01:41):
Lot of flights. What did you watch?

S2 (01:43):
Yeah. And like this is actually quite fitting because I
watched a lot of mid films. I don't like watching
like really good films on planes. So I kind of
used it as an opportunity to catch up on all
the kind of things I hadn't quite got around to like.
I watched Mean Girls the Musical, not not great. Wonka,
Wonka the musical. Wow. Not not great. I checked in
on Woody Allen watch. Stroke of luck. Very Woody Allen.

(02:04):
Still doing the same thing. Not not not great. Um,
and then I watched. Are you There? God. It's me, Margaret, which.

S1 (02:11):
Is pretty great film. Pretty great film.

S2 (02:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the best of the lot.

S3 (02:15):
But in, like, all this hours of flying time, you
couldn't find any time for a mid podcast that you
sometimes that you sometimes feature on.

S2 (02:21):
Well, I knew I definitely needed to listen to it
when I was connected to the internet so I could
give you kind of live feedback on it. But you
know what else I did watch another kind of mid thing, um, you,
you know, the thriller. You I've watched you I never
watched it though. A great Netflix.

S1 (02:35):
Show with the guy from Gossip Girl.

S2 (02:37):
Yeah. That's it, Ben Badgley. Um, yeah. Very bingeable on
a plane.

S1 (02:41):
Are you up to date with any new releases?

S2 (02:43):
Well, no. The new releases were all things we've seen
or discussed, really. But I did go back and watch
Priscilla again, which I had seen in cinemas, and I
do think that film was like hugely underrated. I really
liked that film.

S1 (02:58):
Have you seen challenges yet?

S2 (02:59):
I still haven't seen it. They didn't have it on
the plane, but I also would not have watched it
on the plane because I feel like I need to
watch that in the cinema.

S1 (03:07):
You need the cinematic experience, you need the audio reverberating
from that soundtrack in a cinema for that one. Yeah, I.

S2 (03:12):
Agree, and you probably would watch it on a plane
because you fly business class. But for the rest of us,
economy is not where you did all those flights. Economy
I am I like at the end I was like,
this is inhumane how we have to the worst.

S3 (03:24):
Thing about you not seeing challenges or not being here
for our discussion was that I couldn't, like, hastily make
a meme with the three of us are sitting on
the bed like the challenges mean that he's currently doing
the rounds on the internet.

S1 (03:35):
Uh, the way that that film has just become like
the pop cultural zeitgeist kind of thing of the moment.
It's pretty extraordinary. I watched it again, actually, and had
a bit more fun with it this time when I
wasn't trying to, I guess, overanalyze what it was trying
to say about the world, as we discussed on last
week's episode. But it is a really fun film, and
it makes total sense. I think it's sort of like
the Saltburn of this current moment. There's just so many like,

(03:58):
fan edits all over TikTok, but it's a much better
film than Saltburn.

S2 (04:01):
I'm very excited to see it. And have you guys
each considered taking up kind of fashion to serve the
tennis fashion?

S3 (04:07):
Well, I'm pretty good at tennis, so so I feel
like I've got that covered. We should actually play tennis
one day. That would be.

S2 (04:14):
Fun. I dropped tennis.

S1 (04:15):
Comp. I would absolutely play tennis with you guys. I'd
beat you both so hard.

S2 (04:19):
Do you actually think so?

S3 (04:20):
I reckon I would crush you both.

S2 (04:21):
I'm pretty nimble.

S1 (04:22):
You guys are both pretty good at tennis. You're telling me?

S3 (04:25):
But we play doubles together, obviously.

S1 (04:28):
And we did actually get a review while you were away, Mel.
And the title was you need Mel. Exclamation mark, exclamation mark. Uh,
it was by, um, someone called Del Kathryn, who is
maybe the two time Archibald Prize winner, del Kathryn Barton,
if it's you. Thanks for listening and I guess thanks
for your review. I don't know, they said I love
this podcast, but it's seriously lacking chemistry and nuance without Mel.

(04:53):
I hope she's back soon. Seriously lacking chemistry and nuance.
That's a lot. I thought you and I, Thomas had
heaps of chemistry. Maybe even too much chemistry.

S3 (05:01):
That's what I think as well.

S2 (05:03):
I can imagine just telling each other how jacked you
are for like hours on end.

S3 (05:07):
It was the most obnoxious echo chamber, but I loved it.
Couldn't wait to get back here every week. No, but yeah,
like that is a, I guess look. It's a scathing
but also kind of nice review. But I do suspect
that people the people miss Melanie Kembrey. Uh, they missed
her smart and nuanced takes and also all her book chats.
So I think we're all glad that she's back. Uh,
and she also went to a bunch of jazz clubs

(05:28):
when she was away. So she's into jazz now. So
there's so much to learn about the new mill. And
I'm very glad you're back on the pod.

S2 (05:34):
Yeah, that's very nice. Thank you. Thomas, maybe the nicest
thing you've ever said to me. Um, no.

S1 (05:37):
It's great. The Dream Team is here. We're ready to
tackle the big questions looming over culture this week, which
include are we living in an era of mid TV?
That's a question that was posed by the New York
Times chief TV critic this week. Really, really interesting. Long
read looking at the current state of the TV landscape
and why so much of it, even the most interesting shows,

(06:00):
the ones that we talk about pretty regularly, don't seem
to be hitting as hard as great television used to.
We're going to dig into that piece and discuss our thoughts.
We're also, and I'm very excited for this one, going
to discuss the new Anne Hathaway rom com that is
being released on Amazon Prime Video today. The idea of you,
where it fits into this contemporary rom com renaissance that

(06:21):
we seem to be going through. But first Guys, Jerry
Seinfeld has some thoughts about the state of comedy. He's
promoting his upcoming Netflix film Unfrosted, which is about the
origin of the Pop-Tart. Yep, that's a real movie that
is coming out, directed by starring Jerry Seinfeld. In a
podcast interview with The New Yorker's editor David Remnick, Seinfeld

(06:44):
shared his view that, quote, the extreme left and PC
crap had made it harder for comedians to write sitcoms
like his obviously famous and beloved show, Seinfeld. Thomas, you
covered what Seinfeld said for us in the paper this week.
Can you tell us a bit more about what he
actually discussed with Remnick?

S3 (07:05):
Yes. Uh, firstly, I just think it's very funny that Seinfeld,
a guy who has done like four projects, one of
them being about a pop tart, one of them about
a bee is like is coming in and making these
comments like, he doesn't work a lot, but I mean,
he doesn't need to. He's like, show has been syndicated. Um,
so his wallet is well lined. But yeah, as you said,
the the interview, it's one of those things where you

(07:26):
can tell as soon as you read a story and,
you know, 80% of the story is, you know, just
them chatting and then there's 20%. And as soon as
you read that, 20%, you know that this is going
to be all the headlines are about. But essentially in
this chat, uh, he talk turns to the current state
of comedy. And the interviewer asked, like, how do you
grapple with all the seriousness the world is currently facing
and how it affects comedy? And Jerry kind of goes

(07:48):
on to say that nothing really affects comedy. People always
need it. And then he begins to lament more the
the death of the sitcom and how sitcoms aren't a
thing anymore.

S4 (07:58):
It used to be you would go home. At the
end of the day, most people would go, oh, cheers
is on. Oh, mash is on a Mary Tyler Moore
is on, all in, the family is on. You just
expected there'll be some funny stuff we can watch on
TV tonight. Well guess what? Where is it? Where is it? Um,
this is the result of the extreme left and PC

(08:19):
crap and people worrying so much about offending other people. Mhm. Um.

S3 (08:24):
And that was particularly the comments that, you know, everyone
cherry picked and jumped on as, oh, this is, you know,
is Jerry Seinfeld one of the great comics of our time,
you know, saying that comedy is is dead now as
a result of the extreme left. Other things that I
think are interesting that people have also jumped on. He
does talk about, you know, David Remnick says, well, what
about Curb Your Enthusiasm, a show that you're involved with

(08:45):
that only just finished that is famously pretty, you know,
happy to take on anyone and everyone. But Jerry says, well, look,
Larry David's a special case. He's got, you know, a
lot of skin in the game, money in the bank.
He's been around forever before these kind of rules were enforced.
And so he doesn't really count because.

S5 (09:01):
Isn't that what curb is all about? Yeah.

S4 (09:03):
Larry was Larry was grandfathered in. He's old enough that
I don't have to observe those rules because I started
before you made those rules.

S3 (09:13):
We did. And basically he ends it by saying, look,
the reality is, if Larry David was 35, there's no
way he would be able to, as a young comic,
get these ideas over the line. And essentially he ends
it with saying, stand up comedy is the place where
the edgy and risky comedy can live. Now the sitcom
is dead, although he does concede towards the end that
maybe things are slightly correcting back in the right way now.

(09:33):
Maybe our, you know, this over political correction is is
is over, and we're going to start to see a
more sane approach to comedy. And naturally, you know, that
has ignited, again, a kind of culture war where people
on the right are being like, yes. Finally, Jerry Seinfeld,
you know, is saying what we're all thinking. You've got
Elon Musk tweeting out clips from the interview saying, ah,
thank you, Jerry. And then at the same time, people

(09:55):
on the other side of the spectrum are saying, oh,
here we go again. This is John Cleese and Ricky
Gervais and Dave Chappelle, all these rusted on comics who
do not lack a platform saying that you can't say
anything anymore. So that's kind of the state of play. Yeah, it's.

S1 (10:08):
A really another really interesting example of how everyone on
every side of this would just sort of cherry pick
the one line that they think backs up their own
perspective on this issue. When I saw this stuff being
sort of dunked on on social media, a lot of
people immediately pointed out, well, you know, what about curb?
And it's interesting, as you pointed out, that in his
interview actually sort of discusses that head on. And I

(10:29):
want to I want to talk to you guys about that.
Whether we think he's right in terms of his argument
that Larry's grandfathered into the system, I'm kind of also
a bit confused by his reference to to shows like
Mash and cheers. Like, is Mash like a famously anti-woke show?
It's like a satire on the Korean War. I know
there's a character called Hot Lips Houlihan, and there was

(10:50):
like a lot of casual sexual harassment of her in
the workplace, which in this instance was a mobile surgical
hospital in Korea. Uh, so maybe that couldn't happen as much.
Maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing, but, um, I yeah,
I kind of think there's maybe a couple of different
bits of this. One is what happened to the sitcom,
because Jerry's right that we don't have shows like Mash
and The Mary Tyler Moore Show, uh, on every night.

(11:13):
And then there's a question of, okay, is that because
of a oppressive culture that doesn't let comedians write on
his jokes? What was your kind of immediate reaction to
this one? Mel?

S2 (11:25):
Yeah, I mean, I guess alarm bells always ring for
me when someone who is no longer quote unquote as
relevant as they once were suddenly bemoans their lack of relevance,
but blames it on everyone else rather than reflecting on
their own kind of brand of comedy. I agree with you.
I was quite confused by those references to say that
the sitcom doesn't exist in the form of Mary Tyler Moore. Cheers. Mash. Well, like,

(11:48):
I mean, I agree with him. We don't really have
laugh tracks and live audiences. We don't have sitcom seasons
that are 30 episodes. We don't really have those four
camera kind of shots anymore. So yeah, I guess I'm
not going to argue with him. That Mary Tyler Moore
style of sitcom doesn't exist. And I agree with you. Also,
they're not really examples of kind of daring comedy either. Um,

(12:11):
but I will disagree on the fact that he's lying,
that there is no longer room for inoffensive comedy. Whatever
he takes inoffensive to mean. I don't think that's true.
I think the sitcom has evolved, and I still think
there are. There are shows that are pushing the edges
of what comedy is on TV. So I disagree on
that point.

S1 (12:29):
That was my initial reaction as well. And I went
straight to say a show like curb, which at some
point I literally just wrapped up and continued to say
all sorts of things that people say, you can't say
anymore about race and religion and gender and, you know,
gender identity and sexuality and all these kinds of things.
I also thought about a show, one of my favorite shows,

(12:50):
Always Sunny in Philadelphia, which just like continues to find.
Quite funny and interesting ways to say extremely crass things.
But then I wanted to ask you guys about his
argument that, okay, sure, shows like that exist, but they've
been around for decades. They started an era where it was,
according to him, easier to say whatever you wanted and

(13:12):
you couldn't do it now if you were a 35
year old Larry David. Do you think there's some merit
to that? Thomas?

S3 (13:19):
Yeah, I do think there is like, you know, Always
Sunny started in 2005. That's a very long time ago.
So many people like this tweet yesterday went viral about
the popularity of Veep, a sitcom that is again, you know,
doesn't shy away from going into areas that are tricky.
But also, like Veep started in 2012, that's like now
12 years ago. It was also starring Julia Louis-Dreyfus, one
of the most famous sitcom stars of all time. And

(13:40):
it's created by Armando Iannucci, who has got, like, enormous
money in the bank. These are not like these are
people who will get their shows greenlit. I get the
feeling with this entire thing and what's kind of been
lost in maybe the edit of the transcript or, or
just what we got to see of the chat. I
really think, like Jerry was talking about the state of
comedy right now. If you're a young up and comer,

(14:01):
that's not like able to just like use your back
catalog to get something over the line. Like, I feel
like he was that got lost in the back and forth.
But you know, obviously there are going to be people
who can get edgy shows made. But I think he's
saying if you're a 20 something, 30 something comic and
you're pitching to a network and you don't have a
lot of, you know, prior experience and you're trying to

(14:23):
write something edgy, there's a high chance that you may
get like sense checked to death before you get anywhere
near like, production. And I think in some ways, I
definitely think that there's a lot in this that I
don't agree with. And there is an element of like
a 70 year old multi-million dollar comedian who just, like,
collects classic cars and doesn't probably watch much contemporary TV

(14:45):
being out of touch. But I do think there is
something to be said about the way in which shows
get made by committee now at these big networks, and
they are more risk adverse. And so there is a reality.
If you're a young comic that's trying to write something
really fucking weird, that maybe you do just get like
Committee to Death. Like I can see that being a reality.

S1 (15:03):
What? Look, I think I think a couple of things there.
I think I think you're right that say, shows like
Veep and Always Sunny are of even a slightly different
era to where we are right now and benefit from
having these big names. But I also think, you know,
there's a big gap between Mash and Mary Tyler Moore
and and Veep and Always Sunny. So I think I
think he's kind of I think the most obvious thing

(15:24):
that he's probably wrong on is that we just don't
have comedies like we did in the 70s, like that
was 50 years ago. If we're saying, okay, we don't
have comedies like we used to have 12 years ago,
that's a slightly different point. I think it's maybe one
that is worth thinking about a bit, a bit more deeply.
And I actually think there is something to what you're saying,
and I'm not sure whether it's self-censorship. I'm not sure

(15:44):
whether it's genuine, like, you know, standards of what people
think is funny, changing. I think part of it is that, like,
there are just some things that people don't want to
say now, because saying the n word as a white
person is not a good thing to do. So that's
part of it too. But I wonder whether some of
what is going on is a conservatism or a fear

(16:05):
of radicalism, or a fear of risk taking that is
existing at the big networks and big streamers. A show
like Barry, I think, really delved into this, where you
see these committees in action. This is a show about
a hit man who tries to become an actor, but
it ends up in its later seasons being about Hollywood

(16:26):
and how you get TV shows green light. And it
is very scathing of this process. And it basically shows
how a combination of like risk averse executives, algorithms and
all these sorts of things are aimed at just creating
the lowest cost possible show for the broadest possible audience,
which maybe means you don't get something that is a
bit edgy and a bit provocative. And I think about

(16:47):
things like, you know, Post-black Lives Matter. There's episodes of
Always Sunny that don't exist on streaming platforms anymore because
it involves them doing blackface, and they've since talked about
it and they've made an episode reckoning with it, one
of my favorite episodes of community, where they all play
Dungeons and Dragons, doesn't exist anymore because Senor Chang is
in blackface. And I got to say, like, I don't know, like,

(17:10):
I think it's okay to say that's bad without saying
you endorse blackface. And I wonder whether there is an
element of truth in some of what he's saying, in
that there is just a lack of people willing to
push a boundary for a comedic effect, because streamers don't
want to be considered anti-woke, or they just don't want
to deal with a headache of their offices being picketed

(17:32):
and then being the subject of petitions and campaigns. Yeah, I.

S2 (17:36):
Mean, it's a very complicated discussion, and it's hard to
unpick because I think to really broad terms like woke
and cancel culture are thrown out and no one really
knows what we're talking about and what counts as cancel culture,
what counts as woke. So the conversation becomes very congested.
I think we've had like a significant amount of social

(17:57):
change in quite a short amount of time with Black
Lives Matter, MeToo, and everyone is still trying to adjust
and eventually an equilibrium will return. But at the moment
we're in the midst of it and trying to figure
it out. I will also say there's something generational going
on to like. It is about what different generations find funny,
and that might be also what Jerry Seinfeld. Comments are

(18:20):
identifying that his generation and a new generation making TV.
It might not necessarily be because they're self-censoring, as people
like to think it might be, because what they find
funny is very different. Um, and I do think I mean,
I think of Dave that that TV show that we
always tell you to watch, like that's not a politically
correct show, is it? And that is, that's out there.

(18:41):
Even shows like, I mean, Master of None, I think
of Derry Girls. I'm trying to think of shows that
are more classic sitcoms. I mean, they are still pushing
boundaries in certain ways. They're just pushing those boundaries in
a different way to the shows that Seinfeld is presumably
referring to.

S1 (18:55):
Yeah, I think that makes sense, and I'm actually way
more interested in hearing from the creators of shows like
Always Sunny and Dave about what they think about this issue,
because they are currently, in a contemporary sense, engaged in
the art of making funny TV shows that try to
push boundaries, but also do it in a way that
is like clear that they're on the right side, if
you know what I mean, that they're like, I want

(19:16):
to talk about these ideas, but I'm actually not a
right wing person who doesn't believe in a trans person's
right to exist or whatever. I think the thing with
Jerry Seinfeld weighing in on this discussion is it's not
like Seinfeld was like necessarily a super edgy, provocative show, like,
largely family friendly entertainment. And it's not like his new film,

(19:38):
the Pop-Tarts movie is, like particularly boundary pushing. It's like,
I'm interested to hear what Larry David has to say
about this. I also wonder whether part of his desire
to to to step in on this, you know, he's
before Unfrosted was like most recently in the media because
he's regularly now subject to protests because of his views
on on Israel. And sometimes you see this from people
of a certain generation where they they think they're on

(19:59):
the right side. And then a younger generation says you're
on the wrong side. And they react and say, well,
the extreme left and PC culture is, you know, ruining everything.
I think there is something in, in the debate around
like what you can and can't say and what you
can and can't make comedy about. I'm just not sure
that Jerry is the right person to frame that debate.
When there is a new generation of comedians who are

(20:20):
trying to have these conversations.

S2 (20:23):
Yeah. Completely agree. And also, as you mentioned, he was
famously family friendly. Like he's made the argument before about
why he doesn't swear and why inoffensive comedy is a
great kind of comedy. So it does feel odd that
he's now decrying the lack of quote unquote offensive comedy,
which is a strange kind of label in itself that
could probably be unpacked.

S1 (20:42):
Yeah, I think we've just discussed like, half a dozen
shows that are more edgy than Seinfeld ever was as well.

S2 (20:47):
Yeah, for sure. Curb really is. And I know you
mentioned this, Thomas Curb really is an example of someone
who is, you know, with Larry David, I think he's
76 now who is still making comedy. That is hitting
the mark in this day and age. So I don't
think it's just about people being I don't think it's
about comedy changing as much as it is about certain
comedians not changing in response to kind of the world

(21:08):
around them.

S3 (21:09):
It is funny, though, how he makes the point, and
I guess this really, like contextualizes Jerry a lot. He
makes the point in the interview that, you know, or
he's kind of big point is that comedy and sitcoms
are dying because there are no new sitcoms in this
fall schedule in America on the four kind of major
networks over there. But of course, like, who cares about that?
Like four networks, like, everyone watches stuff on streaming now

(21:32):
like that. You know, the fact that there's no new
NBC comedy or anything on CBS or that would be like,
you know, in Australia when we, you know, do the
upfronts at all of our major networks. And very often
the conversation is around like, well, there are so few
new original dramas on like seven, nine, ten. That would
be like us being like, oh my God, dramas are dead.
When in reality, like all of the best stuff that's

(21:53):
being commissioned and the new stuff is happening on like Stan, Netflix, Amazon, binge,
like that's where the new commission is happening. Not the
major like free to air networks.

S1 (22:01):
Yeah. I mean, clearly Jerry is not aware of Young Sheldon,
which I think is killing it on one of these networks.
But yeah, yeah, I think that's a whole other part
to this conversation, which I think we're going to have
in a bit more detail around our chat about mid television.
But we've talked about it before as well in the show,
the structures of how TV works now, it's just so
fundamentally different, like networks or people who have money and
commissioning TV shows aren't reliant on 30 episode runs of

(22:25):
20 minute sitcoms that have advertising partners that bring in
all the revenue. That's just not how the TV model
works anymore. And I think, you know, I think maybe
in some ways that's bad, but I think in other
ways it's led to an explosion in the kinds of
creators who were never allowed to make those big network
sitcoms make smaller shows for streaming, and have them land

(22:46):
like Atlanta is a show that just would not have
existed in an era of network dominated comedies. Shows like
Dave are the same. There's all these shows that maybe
they'll commissioned by HBO or FX, but they really found
their audiences online rather on late night TV. And yeah,
I think that's probably a way bigger factor in why
TV comedies look different now than this society wide fear

(23:10):
of saying the wrong thing. But like I said, I
do think that there is a risk adverse nature. Probably
more so, I think, from. Then from young comics and
comedy writers. So I think are trying to find ways
to talk about edgy, for lack of a better term,
ideas in a way that is interesting and provocative and
genuinely funny.

S2 (23:30):
Yeah. And I think that is where you set the
you separate the curds from the way, if that is
what you do with the curds and the way where
you like being a proper artist, making something.

S6 (23:42):
Yeah. I don't know what either.

S1 (23:43):
Curds are way off.

S2 (23:44):
Frankly, I believe you separate them. Um, I guess my
point is where you separate true artists from the kind
of the chaff.

S6 (23:52):
If the 17th century.

S2 (23:56):
From old London town. Um, because I do think true
art has to press upon the boundaries of the world.
It is made in like that's part of its job. Right?
And I do think it takes a certain kind of
person to be brave enough to do that. And like
art is about being brave. So yeah, I think there's
a lot of artists who probably aren't brave enough to

(24:16):
do that. But then every so often you get someone
who is and they do jump out. People like the
creator of Dave or some of the other shows that
we've mentioned where they are willing to cop the consequences.

S3 (24:25):
It seems to me that having like, read about this
and spoken to lots of people, that the the generally
like sensible take. Is that what Jerry saying is a
bit crazy, and it definitely shouldn't probably be coming from him.
One of the most powerful people in comedy. But there
was a little kernel of truth, and especially some of
the stuff about that, like being, you know, like jokes
by committee, being the end of comedy and scripts or

(24:46):
comedic ideas going to all these different hands at an
executive level, which kind of renders the comedy dead and buried.
And it seems like people kind of connect it to
that idea. So while the framing and execution and maybe
the broader argument that Jerry was making, people are like, oh,
I don't know, there was something that struck a chord
with people. So I guess, like, therein lies whatever's going
on right now. People are like, we don't fully agree

(25:07):
with you. But also there is a general feeling that
perhaps this risk adverse nature is hamstringing comedy a little bit.

S1 (25:23):
All right, well, we've got another interesting conversation coming up
about the state of television more generally. But why don't
we take a bit of a detour to talk about
brand new movie? Movies are out, guys. There are new
ones coming out. This one is out literally today. It
stars Anne Hathaway. It's called the idea of you.

S7 (25:39):
How did you guys meet? We need to know the story.
We met at.

UU (25:41):
Coachella. Hi. Hi.

S8 (25:47):
This is your trailer?

S9 (25:48):
Yeah, I'm in the band performing on the main stage.

S8 (25:51):
August moon. Yeah.

S10 (25:53):
I met someone tonight.

S1 (25:54):
It's based on a book by the American actress Robin Lahue.
I'd never heard of before, but apparently she's in, like,
the latter 250 Shades films. And this is her debut
book she wrote. The film is written and directed by
Michael Showalter, who's a very experienced hand when it comes
to comedy and romcoms. He directed The Big Sick and
the Wet Hot American Summer franchise. The movie is about

(26:15):
Anne Hathaway's character. Celine is a 40 year old single mum.
She takes her daughter and her friends to Coachella, where
they've got VIP passes to meet the members of a
fictional boy band, which is a pretty obvious One Direction
stand in. A daughter and her friends are really busy
watching Saint Vincent, as you do at Coachella, and Celine
has a run in with one of the members of

(26:36):
the band, a young man called Haze Campbell, played by
Nicholas Galitzine from Red, White and Royal Blue and Bottoms fame.
They have this meet cute. They fall for each other. Basically,
what follows are the ups and downs of a love
affair between a single mum and a 24 year old
British pop star. Do you remember.

S9 (26:54):
Me? But we met in Coachella.

S8 (26:56):
Yes, I remember you well.

S9 (26:58):
I desperately need some artwork.

UU (27:01):
Why don't we start in the back? I like. These
are fantastic.

S8 (27:06):
This piece is from my friend Sarah. What's it called?
Unclose me.

S9 (27:11):
What do you feel when you look at it?

S8 (27:14):
Everything.

S1 (27:16):
Now, this movie on the surface, doesn't feel like a
necessarily very hefty or complicated story. It's a little bit frothy,
but I got to say, I had a really fun
time with this one. It landed for me in the
anyone but you sort of frame, but I think it's better.
I think this is like a genuinely quite a well
written and well directed film. I think Anne Hathaway probably

(27:39):
elevated a lot for me. I think she's like moments
where she's like crying and really acting. And Nicholas Galitzine,
who I liked in everything he's done before, he's like
a little bit one note, but he brings enough to this,
and the movie ends up being a bit more interesting
than just this frothy rom com. It's a bit about,
you know, the weight of fame on a young star

(28:00):
and the expectations of a woman in her 40s who
was a single mom, and whether she can date and
have a good time. And the ending was. Less predictable
than I expected it to be. So I had a
really good time with this film and would recommend it.
How did you guys feel about the idea of you?

S2 (28:16):
Yeah, I definitely would have watched this on the plane
if if it was an option available. Yeah, I agree
with you largely, but one thing that really bothered me
was the worst part of this was the actual romantic
part of it. Oh, really? Yeah.

S3 (28:31):
I just you didn't Melwas texted me yesterday being like,
this is so unbelievable.

S2 (28:35):
Soul and Hayes I just could not they just I
could not understand what they liked about each other. Like,
I don't think they showed enough.

S1 (28:42):
Super hot. And he's super hot.

S2 (28:44):
Yeah, but I didn't even really get like the chemistry
didn't seem real. They didn't have any kind of intellectual collection. He, like,
hates her art and what she believes in. They didn't
really have any emotional connection like the most emotion we showed.
I just didn't believe that they actually really liked each
other and that their chemistry was there. And like, I
thought it was so funny. He was wearing like a

(29:05):
hat at one stage. That said, simple on top of it,
and I was like, that is what you are. You
are very simple. And then another I don't know if
the show was being self-referential, but he also said, I'm
just English works a charm. And I was like, that's
all you are. There's just I did not buy it.

S1 (29:19):
She is sick of fuckboy loser men, including her ex-husband,
who literally cheated on her, and she thinks this young
guy who is a young pop star is another one
of these fellows. But turns out he's actually really smart
and really interesting and really nice and really handsome. And
she's like, God, you know what? I don't need some
loser who thinks he's actually great and progressive and cool.

(29:39):
You're actually just like a nice, simple English guy who
seems way nicer than he should be because he's a
pop star.

S2 (29:45):
Sorry. He's not smart, though. He walked into the art store. He's.
This is meant to be some profound artist, and he's like,
what is art about? What does it all mean? And
then he goes, and he buys all her art because
he's so rich to show off his wealth that he
can just buy out her gallery, her life's work in
one go. And we're meant to think that that's like
an attractive move, but I will. Aside from Hayes, I

(30:05):
will agree with you. Anne Hathaway carried this like, completely
carried it the best parts of it were when he
was not in it, and she was dealing with the
repercussions of like a normal civilian being caught up in
a media storm, dealing with the kind of the perception
of a cougar like and all of that. That was
definitely the best part. He was not necessarily necessary at all.
I didn't buy it. I would have had far less
of him, far more of an.

S6 (30:26):
I can't believe like six weeks.

S3 (30:27):
Off hasn't been able to warm up your cold, dead.

S6 (30:29):
Heart.

S2 (30:30):
Did you really think they had it?

S6 (30:31):
Why would you? I thought this to him.

S3 (30:32):
I thought this movie was really fun. I definitely don't
think it's in the ballpark of anyone. But you agree? It's.
It's you.

S1 (30:38):
Guys. Anyone but you is better than this.

S6 (30:39):
Way better. Way better. Interesting. I feel like.

S2 (30:41):
It's more knowing this wasn't knowing enough for me.

S3 (30:44):
I just think this feels way more designed for like
a streamer, whereas this is like proper mid. Whereas anyone
but you felt like a proper old school rom com film,
but they're both really good and I can see why
they're in the conversation together. And I can see also
why they're being both like part of the chat about
the return of rom coms. Like it was a fun movie.
I thought Anne Hathaway was great. Um, and I definitely

(31:05):
thought the chemistry was like, you know, this tapped into
so many like, rom com devices, like the, you know,
it was like a reverse Notting Hill where she's a
civilian and he's famous. Then there was like the age
gap romance, and it kind of navigated those things really well.
And she, they set up so well. Why a woman
like her, this 40 year old single mom who has like,
you know, we saw her sitting on the couch, like
swiping through apps, looking at these people, these like sad

(31:27):
options that are available to her. You can see why
she may actually pursue an opportunity like this should it
come up. Whereas and also, I would catch all of
this with when you watch a rom com, the first
rule is that you have to suspend disbelief because like,
of course this shit is going to be a little
bit like stretched.

S1 (31:42):
I know, I totally, yeah, totally. I mean, like Notting Hill,
a great movie, probably one of the best rom coms
ever made. And this has been called a reverse Notting
Hill for the obvious reasons of who's the famous one.
That also makes no sense. Like, why does she love
Hugh Grant? Like, why does Hugh Grant not know who
the biggest movie star in the world is like? Doesn't
make any sense.

S2 (32:00):
Yeah, it's not so much the believability of the concept.
I know you have to postpone that. It's just like
you never saw them having any kind of. I never
understood what their relationship was. You think.

S6 (32:10):
They didn't have real.

S1 (32:11):
Chemistry.

S2 (32:11):
Like when they were at.

S6 (32:13):
What about when she having.

S2 (32:14):
Dinner in Paris or Italy and he says he's like,
are you having a good time? And she says, we.
And he's like, hahahahaha! And I was like, that's your
that's like it. That is what you laugh about.

S6 (32:26):
What about when she.

S3 (32:26):
Rocks up at his hotel and she's like, got that
nice dress on. And he's like.

S2 (32:29):
Well, that also didn't fully make sense to me. How
she suddenly embraced overnight her her inner sexy lady and
was all of a sudden a seductress, I.

S1 (32:37):
Think I think one of the things that surprised me
about this movie, we've been talking about movies like challenges,
anyone but you was bringing kind of sex back to cinema.
I thought this movie was, like, more explicitly sexy than
either of those movies. The scene where they kind of
first hook up, where he's playing her, the song on
the piano like that was that was that was real
chemistry that that was great. I thought.

S3 (32:59):
Yeah, I mean, Osmond and I get chemistry. Yeah.

S6 (33:03):
Can I also.

S2 (33:04):
Say one thing that I really I struggled with too
was her daughter looked about the same. Ages her and
like I could not figure it out. She was at Coachella,
but then she was like at some cute school camp.

S6 (33:14):
School camp. It's like, is this kid?

S1 (33:15):
Is this kid 12 or 18? Yeah.

S6 (33:17):
And look, and if.

S1 (33:18):
There is one unbelievable part of it, I mean, Anne Hathaway, like,
without getting weird about it, she looks incredible, right? And
there's this bit where she's, like, hanging out with these, like,
younger women who are the girlfriends of the other members
of the band. And she's like, oh, they're all wearing bikinis.
And I feel really uncomfortable. So I'm going to wear
this one piece and it's like Anne Hathaway, like, you know,
you are sure you're like a slightly older at 40

(33:40):
and you're playing a single mom, but like, you were
not unconventionally, you know, a very conventionally attractive person. But
I guess maybe part of what the movie is trying
to say is like, these are these insecurities that that
hit women at a certain age and a certain stage
of life.

S2 (33:54):
I found out more about them.

S1 (33:56):
I found the, um, Wikipedia like subsection for this film
to be very, very, very funny. It has these two hilarious,
like juxtaposed sentences. Grazia described the film as being based
on Harry styles fan fiction. Vogue described the plot as
a socio cultural commentary about aging and a woman's worth.
And I'm like, I guess the movie's literally both of

(34:16):
those things and kind of a decent job of both
of those things.

S2 (34:20):
Yeah, I mean, also, the more when I couldn't quite
figure out why they were together, the and then I
was like, so what's going on here? And then I
was like, it's quite clear really, if you wanted to
pathologize them, she's trying to recapture the youth she never
had because she had kids too early. And he's got
mommy issues. Right, that they explain. So I was like,
maybe that's what.

S6 (34:38):
Is also going on in the movie.

S1 (34:40):
That's in the text.

S2 (34:41):
Well, it's like not very low.

S6 (34:43):
I think she's slipping. Yeah, I think.

S1 (34:46):
The script is um, I think the script is interesting.
I think there's a lot of layers of complexity, and
maybe it doesn't all work out, because ultimately you can
see maybe the writers are trying to make this a
little bit more of a meditation, all of these ideas.
But then Amazon's like guys, you've got like $20 million.
Just shoot this thing in a weekend. Let's get this
on the planes and on streamers. Let's go. You know

(35:07):
so it's a bit of a tension there.

S2 (35:09):
Yeah, I think so. And I mean, I do think
it was speaking of that, it is a bit of
a mish mash of those two tones, isn't it, the
rom com and then the kind of quite serious study
of Anne Hathaway's character.

S6 (35:20):
Yeah.

S3 (35:20):
It had like I think it had very like commendable
aspirations to be something great. And it ended up being
something pretty good.

S1 (35:27):
Well, I mean, you could say that makes it a
perfect case study of what we call mid tier streaming content.
It's fine. It's entertaining, it's not bad, but it's not
really transcendent either. And that kind of mid TV was
the focus of a piece written by the New York
Times chief TV critic James Poniewozik. He opened the piece

(35:48):
by talking about Donald Glover and Maya Erskine, who wrote
and starred in Atlanta and Pen15, respectively, two pretty elite,
boundary pushing, critically acclaimed shows. And this year they both
performed together in the Mr. and Mrs. Smith TV series reboot,
which James says was fine but, you know, best suited
to airplane watching something Mel would probably agree with, uh,

(36:12):
rather than the kind of like detailed viewing that a
show like Atlanta commands. You don't really want to watch
it on a plane. You want to sit down and
think about it and really enjoy what Donald Glover is
trying to say. He goes on to talk about a
bunch of shows like The Diplomat, hijack, Ozark, none of
which are bad, but none of which are really going
to be shows that we discuss in years down the track,
even though they all star like very famous people. There's

(36:34):
a lot of killer quotes in this piece, but this
one really stood out to me. TV was so highly
acclaimed for so long that we were like the frog
in boiling water, but in reverse. The medium became lukewarm
so gradually that you might not even have noticed. And
I found that a really interesting way to describe how
quickly we seem to have gone from, wow, TV is
better than it's ever been. There are so many stars,

(36:56):
there are so many budgets. This is replaced. Cinema is
like the predominant form of high quality visual entertainment to
oh yeah, Anne Hathaway movies. Okay, this Idris Elba Apple
show is okay. It feels like a topic we talk
about on this show pretty regularly. We talk about all
these new shows every month. Some of them are fun,
some of them are entertaining, but we end up kind

(37:17):
of agreeing that none of them are really going to
break through in the way shows like succession did a
year ago. Do you guys agree with the premise of
this piece? Are we living in a mid TV era?

S3 (37:30):
Yeah, I think so. I mean, how often have the
three of us had a conversation where we desperately crave
another succession or we, you know, discuss how rare something
like the bear is? I do think that it's been
like a whole bunch of factors that have led to this.
And I know, Mel, you hate calling anything like, you
don't like the label prestige, you don't like peak, you
don't like mid. But I do think that what, you

(37:52):
know was kind of deemed the golden age of TV,
with all of these movie stars rushing to do TV
shows and the production value skyrocketing and and them earning
more money. So more and more, um, movie stars traditionally
were keen to do these. You then found yourself in
this kind of like glut of TV shows starring really
big names, with all these different streaming services offering all
these different shows, and everyone's kind of like siloed off

(38:14):
from each other, because not everyone has every streaming service
and there's just like a constant output, which means like
the quality goes down. And, you know, he makes the
point in this article, which I think is really interesting,
is that, like, you know, he uses the idol, a
show we all know and hated together, which was so fun.
But like that is such a rarity now to have
a bad TV show because like there is just so

(38:36):
much mid effort going into these other shows with good
enough people behind the cameras, good enough people in front
of the cameras and enough money that what you get
is this kind of product that is forgettable, like the
fact that, you know just this week, Nicole Kidman was,
you know, honored by the American Film Institute for an
incredible career. Last year, she starred in Expats and Special

(38:57):
Ops Lioness, two shows that no one could give a
fuck about. Really? Like they're fine, but they're forgettable. And
you know, he talks about Idris Elba in Hijack this year.
We had Jodie Foster in True Detective, like these are
all fine shows, but they just like come and go.
And then six months later you could barely tell someone
what they're about.

S2 (39:14):
Look, I understand what you're saying, and I don't mean
to come back being contrarian as I feel I have been,
but man, I reckon this guy just wants to be.
And I call him. This guy is very esteemed. I
think he just wants to be in, like the Oxford
English Dictionary for coining the term mid TV. Like, that's
what I reckon the play is that like critics like
that love having coined a label. I don't buy the

(39:36):
argument or I don't buy his reasoning behind the argument.
He's reasoning is that we have a willingness to retreat,
to settle, to trade the ambitious, for the dependable. That's
what he argues that we've become safe. And I just
don't buy it. Of course, there are more average TV shows.
That's because we are watching so much more TV now
in Australia, I think we watch like 51 hours a month,

(39:57):
which is nearly two hours a day. If I've done
my my math right there. Platforms have pressure to supply
for this demand. When you're over supplying, obviously there's going
to be problems with quality. Um, and they're also having
a pressure to get people to subscribe based on the
enormity of their catalogs. So yeah, we're going to have
a lot of mid-level TV. I mean, we have the

(40:18):
Opal tower because we needed more houses quickly. You're like,
you know, you've got to have a lot of you've
got to have a lot of frescoes to get the
Sistine Chapel. I just don't buy his point that what
it reflects. Yes, I agree there is a lot of
TV that doesn't stay the test of time, but I
don't buy his point that it's about a willingness to retreat,
because risk only exists because you have safety like it

(40:39):
can't exist without it, like they're in a dialogue together.
And I mean, of course, he mentions The Sopranos. You
guys who love your prestige TV chat like to mention
The Sopranos. You know what else came out in 1999? Angel, Roswell, passion, spaced,
The Lost World, popular, Bad Girls, Jack and Jill. Once
and again. Do you know any of these? Some of them.
But that's a whole lot of mid TV, right? Like

(41:00):
average TV has always existed. We have more of it
now because we have more TV in general. But it
doesn't mean good TV doesn't exist. And I think like
I think it's quite a damaging point of view and
it's quite lazy criticism to kind of just throw back
to nostalgia. They were better times because you're really not
acknowledging all the great TV shows that we do have

(41:20):
now that are pushing boundaries. We mention them, some of
them before in the comedy section. But I mean, Baby
Reindeer is another example like that is his issue is
that is baby reindeer exactly what he says. We need
more of its original, its provocative, and its important, so
to say that those shows don't exist at all, I
think is wrong. No, but.

S3 (41:37):
What he's saying is that he specifically says mid TV
is not the mediocre TV of the past. It's it's
like a level up in that we have this ecosystem
now that allows it's almost like it just like pulls
this ultimate trick on everybody. It looks good, it smells good,
the dialogue is good. And you are like kind of
fooled into thinking that Ozark is Breaking Bad, but it's not.

(41:57):
And so I think he's he's not saying there was
not mediocre TV before, but he's saying this actual concept
of mid where we are fooled into thinking something is
perhaps better than it is, or we've become like conditioned
to just be like, oh, this is all a pretty
good is kind of specific to an environment that has
come about as a result of the golden age of TV,
bringing a whole bunch of big names into the mix and,

(42:20):
you know, streamers having more money to spend but needing
to spend more money to produce more content. And so
we have entered into a particular time where, like, everything
is just of. A similar ish level, and it maybe
goes up 5% or down 5%, but nothing like sits
at the very bottom or at the very top.

S1 (42:35):
I think that like, I mean, a lot of what
you said, Mel, in fact, most of what you said,
I really agree with and I think I think one
of the important distinctions to make is that I also
agree with you, like the fundamental thing that I agree
with you on is I don't think this is mode
of TV that he's describing is reflective of us as
individuals wanting it or demanding it. I think there have

(42:56):
been quite significant structural changes to how television is made.
And like you're saying, feeding the beast that force you
to pump out more stuff, but more stuff that seems
high quality but obviously can't be as high quality because
it has to be done a bit cheaper and a
bit more quickly. And I think that is how I
interpreted this sort of definition of mid TV. I mean,
I think Thomas listed a bunch of those shows. Kate

(43:18):
Winslet is like on an HBO show called The Regime.
Kate Winslet has been nominated for an Oscar seven times.
She's won. It's just insane that, like, we live in
an era where this is happening every month and I
guarantee you in five years from now, we will not
be talking about the regime or anything else. I think
that's sort of the kind of TV frame that I'm

(43:40):
interested in at this moment. And I think, yeah, I
really agree with you that it's not because I think
we as audiences aren't ready for more ideas. I think
Baby Reindeer is another amazing example of that, because that
is an interesting show that is risky, that is bold
and weird and grim, and that was a show that
was not teased by Netflix. They did not send that screeners.

(44:01):
They did not alert critics to it. They clearly just
like bought it at some point and thought, this will
be interesting. Let's chuck it on to Feed the beast.
But it has gone ballistic because audiences like us and
like lots of people are ready for interesting, provocative, fascinating, weird,
sometimes really dark shows. But that was an accident in
a way. Like what these people are sitting around and,

(44:22):
and sort of deciding they want to commission more of
seems to be this pattern of does it have big
name star? Does it have a credible writing team? Can
we pump out eight episodes of this for less than
$10 million and then do that 12 times a year?
I think that is what we've ended up with television.
I think streaming is a huge part of that, because
I think it makes it harder for these networks. They

(44:45):
think this goes to this risk conversation we're having earlier.
They don't want to take a risk. Because if the
way that we all live our lives now is we
go to work, we come home, we argue with our
partners about what to watch, and ultimately we just want
to make sure that there's enough new stuff on every
night and every weekend to binge through a show, and
then do that again the next week and do that
again the next week. That's how we live. Then the

(45:07):
goal of the streamer is to maximize the volume of
content that is new, that's being served up at the
lowest possible cost. So I think it does exist not
because we want it, but because this is where the
economic structures of like TV production distribution have led us to.

S2 (45:23):
Yeah, I think that's very true. And I also do wonder,
like you mentioned, baby reindeer and I'm kind of am
quite shocked that that has been the success it has
been globally. Um, but I do wonder too, whether we
are in a kind of echo chamber in a way,
in the sense of what we get out of TV
versus what a person who doesn't work in culture or
doesn't approach TV in the same way we do get

(45:44):
out of it like it's easy to be like there's
too much TV. But for a lot of people, the Mr.
or Mrs. Smith is probably exactly what they want from
TV and go to TV for. And of course, other
shows like The Curse and The White Lotus will always exist.
But a lot of people are happy with Mr. and Mrs. Smith.

S1 (45:59):
I think what worries me is that I'm not sure
that shows like The Curse or The White Lotus will
always exist. Like, I think, you know, one of the
shows that I've loved the most this year, Ripley, which
is beautiful and different and interesting, is like a legacy
of the kind of TV that was being greenlit five
years ago. The Sympathizer on Binge is another show that
I think is amazing and different and bold, and it's

(46:20):
Park Chan wook directing it, and it's awesome. Is that
that kind of came out of the pre mid TV era,
if that makes sense. When we were putting a lot
more money in, a lot more thought into this craft.
Like I think when we look five years from now,
I think it's going to be way more of like
the regime or three body problem shows that are fine,
but just like not that extra little bit. And you know,

(46:42):
you're also right. Again they're probably like what we think.
And what we want is different to what a lot
of people want. Like I always say, the most watched
show in the history of television is The Big Bang Theory, right?
Which fucking sucks. But it is also important, I think,
as critics, to acknowledge that sometimes people just want to
watch a dumb show because they're busy with their lives
and they need something that they can sit down and

(47:02):
watch with their families, and that's fine. And that TV
needs to exist. But what TV can and should do
as an art form and as a medium should be
pushed into more interesting and progressive and, you know, I
guess edgy, edgy ways. And that doesn't feel like there
is that inertia within the current television universe to do

(47:24):
that as much. I mean, this is a thing that
I've yelled at you guys about so much before TV,
its entire existence, and it's certainly for our entire lives,
was shows that came out every week for like half
the year. And you got to know characters, and you
talked about it with your friends and new characters came
in halfway through the season. Then you were off for
half a season. They went back to the drawing board.

(47:46):
They added new things. You lived with it for 4
or 5, six, seven years of your life. That's what
TV was. It wasn't movies which just came. You enjoyed
for two hours and then it went away. You watch
these things, you talked about these things. That's the social
role it played in our kind of communities. And it
is not that anymore. And it's like, well, what is
it now? It's just like something that should be a

(48:06):
movie like hijack becomes an eight part Apple TV series,
but something that brings you together in a way that
you can discuss and debate and watch characters grow and really, like,
have some kind of emotional connection to largely has disappeared
because of streaming and the and the binge mode. I
think the binge model is responsible for a lot of this,

(48:27):
because you just you can't connect to characters or story
in a weekend the way you could over a year.
That's just a reality of it. And maybe it's pie
in the sky to think that we could ever return
to that. But I think we've lost like what TV
was for basically our entire lives.

S3 (48:43):
Yeah, but there's no way back now because the all
the different styles are so fractured, like you can't, you know,
I've seen other people make this comparison, but it feels
relevant because it's happening right now. But like Baby Reindeer
would be a bad show to not binge. I think
like that. That is a show fit for binging. It's
half an hour. It's it's kind of dark. You just
get so sucked in that you don't want to watch

(49:04):
one episode of that and then wait a week to
watch the next one.

S1 (49:07):
That also could have been a movie, you know what
I mean? Like, it literally could have been like a
two hour movie.

S3 (49:11):
Yeah, it could, it could have been. But like, I mean,
it ended up I, I almost think it was one
of the rare ones where I think they actually got
it just right, like it felt it felt perfect at
seven episodes. And then, you know, we've all loved. Well, um,
I don't know, Mel. You've kind of like, tapped out
of culture completely now.

S6 (49:24):
But.

S3 (49:25):
We've all enjoyed Shogun, which is like probably the closest
thing to what all the prestige TV heads big up
to me and Osborne have been reaching for since succession ended.
But that like, man, if that was like, you know,
that was perfect for exactly what it was. It was
week by week. And so like the TV landscape is
so fractured now. Anyway, just like my friend Jerry said, that,
you know, you can't have you need to have both

(49:46):
models like coexisting at the same time. Some stuff needs
to be binged, some stuff needs to be appointment viewing
week by week. And like that's just how the landscape
has like kind of evolved now. And so we all
have to just like live with that. And I think
there's no like this one is better or that one
is better, but I do. I did get the suspicion
as well. Like I wondered, having spoken to this about
almost exclusively people that I know either work in the media,

(50:07):
work in TV, or just really are into the industry
of TV. Like, again, I don't mean to like slander
my wife on this podcast for the thousandth time, but
you know, she's someone who, like, I reckon half of
this show, she'd be like sick, put it on like
she couldn't give a fuck about, like if it's mid
TV or not. Like, is this just a problem for
people who are like really in.

S1 (50:24):
I think it is. But I think like basically all
of these conversations are right, like most people have enough
to worry about than, than debating. The New York Times
chief TV critics like attempt, as Mel said, to coin
a term called mid TV like I think and I
think this is why I think it's really important to
say it is not the fault of any individual who
loves watching shows that we think are like mid or

(50:45):
even worse. I just don't think that is the solution
to this. And I think we need to make sure
that there are shows for all sorts of different audiences
and different levels of quality, and some that are bingeable
and some that are more, uh, interesting and perhaps more cerebral.
But I think those decisions need to be made deliberately,
not to feed a never ending sort of like fire

(51:07):
hose of just content, because that is how streamers have
optimized what they want, which is time on the app,
which is what shareholders want to see. Like, I feel
like the things are upside down. It's like, yeah, let's
make high quality, mid quality, low quality television to satisfy
different audience segments. But let's not just end up with
a situation where we need to have a thousand shows
a year. So what is the most cost optimized model

(51:29):
to do that? I think you made that point really
well earlier, Mel. There's just so much of it. So
we're probably going to like have to deal with this
in the future. But is there a case for there
being less television like being made?

S2 (51:41):
Yeah, definitely. And I think certain streamers will maybe settle
into that because I think what you find and like
I mean, it's in the book publishing industry as well.
I know you guys have no doubt missed my book
references is that, you know, these are companies that need
to make money. They have a shareholders to make happy
that you need to offset your bigger, bolder, riskier projects

(52:02):
with some money makers. Like that's just the way the
world works, right? I mean, it's not that different from journalism.
You need to do some stuff so you can do
the stuff that's deeply important.

S1 (52:12):
Yeah. Like all of our work is basically what funds
Nick McKenzie's investigative pieces. That's I.

S3 (52:17):
Do the podcast so I can then do my high art.

S6 (52:20):
Column on Sundays.

S2 (52:20):
Yeah, we deserve the Walkley. Um, yeah, exactly. So I think,
you know, you there is a I get that that
stuff needs to exist. So the kind of more daring
stuff like the curse can exist and I think, you know,
it's ignorant to not see that that is the reality
of the situation. I do think maybe some streamers, depending
on how they want to approach their subscribers in the future,

(52:42):
will probably go less, but more high quality, which I mean,
HBO has largely done in the past. Fewer shows, higher
quality shows, and that will become their their brand. So
I think you probably will see that. I guess my
main issue with this article was just the fact that
I think he discredits the good shows that are being made.
And yes, there are more mid shows, but the fact

(53:05):
is like there's only more because of we're consuming more
TV than we have in the past. And I don't
think he really acknowledges the why the Mid exists as
it does now.

S1 (53:14):
I like I think I appreciate your optimism, Mel, but
I feel and I'm not trying to say that you're
looking at me like I'm being I'm not trying to
be patronizing at all because I think I can get
in my like head and be very negative about a
lot of different things. So I think it is genuinely
very helpful to hear someone who thinks about this stuff
as much as I do say, hey, actually, just relax, man.

(53:35):
There's like stuff going on. But I think the HBO example,
like HBO doesn't exist anymore. HBO is rebranded to Max.
It is a subset. Of a subset of a company
that is now called discovery. Like, somehow the Discovery Channel
became the biggest thing out of like, Warner Brothers and
HBO and all these things merging together. And I think
in some ways that is like a really perfect metaphor

(53:56):
that this once prestigious brand that took these risks and
sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't, is now just
a name on a streaming platform that is a subsidiary
of a giant, you know, mega corporation that doesn't really
care about taking creative risks. Maybe that is doing a
disservice to these to the people there. And I'm sure

(54:16):
there are still really good network execs and programmers, but
I just think that the trend is going in a
direction that is taking us further away from even the
shows that we think now are pretty good. And I
guess what I always want to come back to is,
and maybe this is just the reality of the future
of how we live in terms of fragmentation. Since succession,

(54:36):
there has not been a show that, like a lot
of people watch and talk about. And. I know it's
been 12 months, but like, there's been a lot of
big shows. There's been a lot of attempts to do
something like this. There's going to be some more later
this year and next year. I like. Is that ever
going to happen again?

S2 (54:55):
The succession one confuses me a little, only because I
do speak to a lot of people who were not
as into succession as we were, and as people in
the media were into succession, and they never released viewer numbers,
though we know it wasn't. You know, we know it
wasn't the most popular show on binge and that the

(55:16):
numbers actually weren't as high as you mentioned. Some of
the other shows, I mean, Law and Order, NCIS were
still kind of far outweighing the number of people of
watching succession. So, I mean, will we get and I'm
sure we will get another succession. Baby reindeer is not
obviously a week by week appointment viewing, but people have
been talking about that. The curse had its moment. The
White Lotus is going to come back. I know that
that's huge in Australia. It hasn't cut through as much overseas,

(55:37):
particularly in the UK, but here it's huge. I just
got back from um, I just got back from the UK.

S6 (55:41):
I've done the streets, the London streets.

S2 (55:44):
I've done a survey of the population.

S6 (55:46):
They're all just.

S3 (55:46):
Top boy over.

S6 (55:47):
There.

S2 (55:48):
Yeah, I mean I do think shows will still cut
through and I do think we'll have a succession again
in the future. Yeah. And maybe that is my, um,
post-holiday optimistic glow. But I just do think good shows
still exist and we are still talking about them.

S1 (56:01):
What do you think, Thomas?

S6 (56:03):
Uh, no.

S3 (56:03):
I think I tend to agree with you, sadly. Osman. Uh, like,
I just think the way the trend is going that
of course, these good shows still exist, but as the
kind of like streamers get more and more of a
return on, like pumping out this certain level of TV
that like how frequently these good shows slip through the
cracks almost and become great, uh, will become less and less,

(56:24):
and there'll be less stuff like the, you know, the
The sympathizer, the curse, the bear. Like, think about how
much we all, like, frothed over the bed just because
it was like this one. Like, great show that managed
to kind of slip through. And it could have so
easily if you if you said to someone the elevator
pitch of the bear, it could sound like any other
mid TV show. And so I don't necessarily think the
argument is whether or not these good shows will continue

(56:45):
to exist, but it's like, how frequently will we get them?
Or will we just continue to like, be drowned out
by shows that seem pretty good until. Yeah, kind of
like he says, you don't even notice that the temperature
has changed. Um, so yeah, I don't know. But either way, um,
it's definitely an interesting conversation. And, you know, we've got
between this and Jerry Seinfeld, it's like, are we obsessed
with the past? Do we know what's good anymore? Like, yeah.

S1 (57:06):
And we should say that, like, probably part of the
reason why it exercises all of us in different ways
is because it's literally our job. Right? Like every day
in our jobs, we think about what TV shows or
works of film or whatever do we want to talk about?
What are people watching? Why aren't they watching this? What
shows do we want to cover on this kind of podcast?
And when you're making a podcast and you're wanting to

(57:27):
reach as many people as possible, it's like, okay, you know,
like Vanity Fair does these recap things, right? And they
chose the regime because they're like, this is a big
Kate Winslet show on HBO with some of the writing
team from succession like, this is obviously going to bang
and go, what? It totally flopped. And it's an interesting
like insidery, I guess, insight into how people whose job

(57:50):
it is is to critique and discuss culture, choose what
to talk about when the market and the audience is
so fragmented. So there is something that is like just very,
I guess, personal to our work. But I also think
audiences are interested in it because even if they don't
think about it necessarily from the same perspective we do,
it determines what is on their Netflix home page. It
determines what shows are available for them to watch. So

(58:12):
it is something that I think a lot of people
should be engaged in. You should check out that piece
in the New York Times, I think.

S2 (58:17):
Absolutely. And, Thomas, your goal for the year is to
coin a term that can be in the OED. I've actually.

S6 (58:23):
Got one. Really? Yeah.

S3 (58:24):
What curds and whey viewing. So basically. What it is
is when you can't separate what's good and bad and
then you shan't ever enjoy another TV show again.

S1 (58:34):
I'm more of a fan of the the wheat and chaff,
you know, logic around this stuff.

S6 (58:40):
And there was an opal.

S2 (58:41):
Tower metaphor in there somewhere as well.

S1 (58:43):
The Opal tower one was very good, bringing the yimby
discourse to conversations around television. Very, very good.

S6 (58:50):
Um, okay.

S1 (58:50):
So it's time for Impress Your Friends, a regular segment
where we share something we read, watch, listen to consumed
in the past week. Mel. You're back, I'm back.

S6 (58:59):
You get to go first.

S2 (59:00):
Guess what? I've picked a book. Yeah, I had to.
I read so much while I was away. Um, usually
when I go on holiday, I don't read new books. Like,
it's I it's time to revisit the past. So I
understand where where we're at today. Um, but I did
read one new ish book, which was a psycho uzuki's
best selling butter, translated by Polly Barton. It's a Japanese

(59:23):
kind of cult best seller. Um, it's inspired by the
true story of this Japanese woman who was known as
the Konkatsu Killer. And she poisoned three of her male lovers.
So it takes that story and it turns it into
this chef, um, Nanako Kagi, who's been convicted for seducing
businessmen with her cooking and then poisoning her. She's in jail.
She meets up with this journalist who wants to to

(59:45):
get a recipe, and they start a very big exchange.
I love books about food, and this is about desire.
An appetite. It's about beauty standards in Japan and hunger.
It's a really gripping Bingeable that was Bingeable works particularly
well here. Um Bingeable read. Definitely worth picking up. Good.
Also good for a plane, I would say. Have you

(01:00:07):
ever read Ottolenghi?

S3 (01:00:08):
Simple.

S6 (01:00:08):
Also a great book about food.

S2 (01:00:10):
Yeah, it stresses me out.

S1 (01:00:12):
Uh. Great recommendation. Thanks, Mel. Great to have you back.

S6 (01:00:15):
Thank you. We did, we did.

S1 (01:00:16):
We did mention books while you were away. Just for
the record. You wouldn't know because you didn't listen. But
we did talk a fair bit.

S2 (01:00:20):
I'm gonna go back and listen to them all.

S6 (01:00:22):
You're not gonna. The breastfeeding segment in particular.

S1 (01:00:25):
Uh, Thomas, what have you got for us?

S3 (01:00:27):
Uh, yes, I have a TV show. Is it me?
Nobody knows.

S6 (01:00:30):
Um.

S3 (01:00:31):
Uh, no, it's actually really good. Um, it's it's here
on the ABC. It's called after the party. You guys across.

S6 (01:00:36):
This?

S1 (01:00:37):
Yeah. Really interesting choice.

S3 (01:00:38):
Yeah. Uh, it's. Look, I feel like lately. I mean,
a couple of weeks ago, I recommended baby reindeer. Also
a very heavy and triggering show. And it's kind of
in the same territory in terms of, like, it's a
New Zealand six parter that deals with some pretty heavy themes.
It stars Robyn Malcolm in the lead as Penny. And basically,
you know, she's a high school teacher in New Zealand.

(01:00:59):
We meet her and we kind of learn that five
years prior, at her husband's birthday, she kind of stumbled
on a scene of him. It was a drunken party,
and she stumbled on a scene of him, possibly what
she thinks is like assaulting a young person at the party,
a young man. And we flash forward five years. Her
husband is kind of like left town in disgrace. Although
no one really believes her side of the story. He

(01:01:22):
returns home, they share a teenage daughter and the story
kind of picks up from there. And it's a really
interesting kind of musing on like what it's like to be,
you know, someone who's accused of something that in your
life changes. But also for Robyn Malcolm's character, you know,
no one believes her. She lives in this kind of
isolation with what she believes she saw. And, you know,
at the start where kind of we're following her and

(01:01:43):
we're led to believe that's what happened. But we do
start to get the inkling that perhaps she's an unreliable narrator,
and it covers some really interesting themes. So that's on
ABC iview. All six episodes are available now.

S1 (01:01:52):
It's a really, really good show. It's a really good show,
really interesting. It's getting a lot of great reviews, a
really good recommendation. I would put it above mid TV. Yes.

S3 (01:02:00):
Me too. Yeah. Where is that mill?

S2 (01:02:04):
Just which tower in Sydney could I compare that to?

S1 (01:02:09):
Um, my recommendation is the Sydney Morning Herald's coverage of
the implosion of the South Sydney Rabbitohs. Oh my gosh
it's not. But man things are not going well. You
guys across this.

S3 (01:02:19):
Yeah man.

S1 (01:02:20):
Obviously everything's bad Russell Crowe apparently there's factions organizing against him.
So I'm going to say that like we started this
downhill trajectory after we moved from Redfern to Maroubra, Heffron Park,
that was not a good decision. Um, we have not
done well since then. Um, that is not my recommendation.
I just needed to get my feelings off on that one.

S3 (01:02:41):
Russell Crowe's been doing a fair bit of mid work,
to be honest.

S2 (01:02:44):
I just watched I watched Land of Bad actually. And
you know who has a cameo in it? George Burgess
I didn't know which one he was, but I did
read that he's got a cameo in it.

S3 (01:02:51):
Land of bad is how you could basically describe his
career over the last ten years.

S1 (01:02:54):
Someone pointed out that Russell Crowe was in two movies
with the word Exorcist in the title last year. It
was like Exorcism and The Pope's Exorcist, and the posters
of them are just him wearing like a, you know,
priest's robe and holding up a crucifix.

S3 (01:03:07):
What's happened to him, though? Because he did, and he
unhinged was really weird. Land of bad, the Pope's exorcist.
He has done so many shit movies.

S2 (01:03:14):
Poker face one was that. Yeah. Or whatever. Poker.

S6 (01:03:17):
Yeah, that was on Stan, though.

S3 (01:03:18):
We liked that one.

S2 (01:03:18):
We do like Stan.

S6 (01:03:19):
Um, yeah.

S1 (01:03:20):
And he's he's this movie Kraven the Hunter, which is
like a the Sony thing which has been delayed again,
I think it's supposed to come out last year and
was supposed to come out this year. I think now
it's coming out 2025. Uh, I just like, can this movie. Anyway,
let me tell you.

S6 (01:03:34):
Isn't he.

S2 (01:03:34):
Can I ask, isn't he building like a film studio
on the North Coast? Wasn't that what he was up to?

S6 (01:03:39):
Yeah, yeah, on.

S1 (01:03:40):
His farm up there. Mid-North coast near Coffs Harbour. Um,
which is where he, uh, famously nine years ago took
some Souths players for a let's not talk about this anymore. Um.

S3 (01:03:50):
What's your recommendation this week?

S1 (01:03:51):
My recommendation? So you guys know that I'm not a
big Marvel head these days, but there was a cartoon
show I watched in the 90s when I was a kid,
which was how I fell in love with comic books.
It was X-Men The Animated Series, which is really iconic
kind of theme music. And it's a big part of
the reason why X-Men became like a pop cultural phenomenon
in that era, leading into, you know, the first Sony
X-Men films with Hugh Jackman. That TV show has actually

(01:04:14):
been rebooted by Disney. It's got X-Men 97. It's really interesting.
It's really fun and sort of violent and thought provoking.
There's a lot of analogies in this series to like
January 6th and, you know, ideas around terrorism and politics.
It's a really interesting show. It's doing really, really well.
I think it's got a lot of fans and hype,

(01:04:37):
particularly in the States. I'm just having a really good
time watching it. It's like it's fun, it's thought provoking,
but it's also just like a cartoon that is a
bit silly at some times. So it's a very good
kind of chill watch. If the grimness of Baby Reindeer
and After the Party getting a bit too.

S11 (01:04:52):
Too much for you.

S6 (01:04:53):
A palate.

S3 (01:04:53):
Cleanser?

S1 (01:04:54):
Indeed, indeed.

S6 (01:04:56):
I thought you were going to.

S2 (01:04:56):
Pick Sabrina Carpenter's, um, espresso.

S6 (01:04:59):
Well, I am.

S1 (01:04:59):
Loving that song, too. So good. Sabrina Carpenter, thank God
we have someone who's, like, genuinely making good pop hits
when Taylor is in her fail era.

S3 (01:05:09):
Well, can we, can we? Before we wrap things up,
we didn't get to hear Merle last week on Taylor.
Can you give us, like, your really quick take on
the tortured poet's apartment?

S2 (01:05:17):
Okay. Quick take. I don't think it's as bad as
the critics have been ready to say. I think there's
a bit of groupthink going on in the amount of
critics slamming it. I definitely do not like the long version,
the two hour and two minute album. I think the
shorter one is good. Yes, I agree with you guys
that there's a lot of it is derivative, a lot
of it. I got Deja vu listening to. I was like,
I've heard this, another Taylor song, but I do think

(01:05:39):
there are some bangers, and I do think it is
an album that rewards listening to more than once.

S1 (01:05:44):
Name one banger.

S2 (01:05:46):
I'm kind of down bad crying at the gym. Everything
turns out teenage petulance. You know there are. And obviously the, um,
do it with a broken heart. And I do think
there might be a bit of disconnect between critics and
her fans because her fans love this album.

S1 (01:06:01):
Yeah, not for the first time, Mel. Yeah, thanks for
that one. Great analysis from.

S6 (01:06:05):
You. So would you say that.

S3 (01:06:05):
It's not great, but not bad, but it's just mid.

S6 (01:06:08):
That's don't.

S2 (01:06:08):
Understand me or Taylor.

S1 (01:06:10):
Well we are definitely not in our mid air. It's
great to have you back Mel.

S2 (01:06:13):
It's great to be back I've missed you guys.

S1 (01:06:15):
Mel Thomas thanks so much. See you next week.

S6 (01:06:17):
Thanks. Bye.

S1 (01:06:22):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Jay Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
a friend! I'm Osman Farooqui, see you next week!