Should we care about the Logies? Plus, The Bear's perfect final course

After one of the most controversial Logies in recent memory, Osman, Thomas and Mel discuss whether Australian TV's night-of-nights still matters, and what it tells us about the state of the industry.

They also unpack what Sonia Kruger winning the Gold Logie means, given her controversial comments about Muslim immigration.

Plus, a discussion about the second half of The Bear season two, which Thomas and Osman think could be better than Succession.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey there. I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
a culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
And we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas Mitchell and
Mel Kambouris. What's up, guys? Having a good week? How
are we feeling?

S2 (00:24):
Yeah, not too bad.

S3 (00:25):
You've had a very big week. You've been at the
Logies behind the scenes. I'm very excited to hear all
the kind of industry Goss from you.

S2 (00:32):
Yeah, it was one of the shortest Logies on record
at 17 hours.

S1 (00:36):
So I feel like we up until the Logies we
were having a pretty similar few days. We were all
watching the next five episodes of The Bear and texting
each other and Thomas, you and I were like, As
you might predict, if you listen to last week's episode
much more excitedly texting each other about it in a
group chat, Mel was, I don't know if you were

(00:57):
busy or just like you'd muted us. There wasn't a
lot of action from you.

S3 (01:01):
Melanie I actually don't think we had similar weeks because
my week was fending off everyone in the world coming
up to me and saying, You're the worst person. You
hate the bear, you have no heart. You're a cold,
hard steak, as Thomas called me last week. So, no,
I think we had very different weeks.

S1 (01:18):
Yeah. And then things things were great watching that show.
And then things got a little bit less great when
Thomas and I had to spend 11 hours covering television.
Self Declared Night of Night's the Logie Awards. And that's
what we're going to start with. We're going to come
back to the bear later on in this episode, wrap
up the second season. But in a normal year, I'm

(01:39):
not sure how much time the three of us would
devote on this podcast to talking about the Logies. But
I think there were a few bits and pieces from
the night that I think allow us to use the
awards as an opportunity to talk about the state of
Australian TV, the good and the bad of the entertainment industry.
But I think most significantly the Gold Logie going to

(02:02):
Sonia Kruger has something that has sparked a lot of
conversation in the industry in Australia. I wrote a piece
about my feelings about that, given some of Sonia Kruger's
past comments on Muslims and her on the record statement
that she was in 2016 in favour of a ban

(02:23):
on Muslim migration.

S4 (02:25):
Indiscriminate the way. That's exactly right. But just just to clarify, Sonia,
are you saying that you would like our borders closed
to Muslims at this point?

S5 (02:31):
Yes, I would. I would because I think at this is.

S4 (02:34):
The Donald Trump. I think.

S1 (02:35):
So. I think there is a bit to unpack there
in terms of what it means for someone like that
to have won the Gold Logie. But before we kind
of get to that specific question, I think it's worth
discussing why exactly we and I say we as in
the three of us, but also we as our listeners,
as Australians more generally should or do care about the

(02:58):
Logie Awards. And whenever the has come up and we
cover it, you always get people either on like social
media or in the comments section of our story saying
no one cares about the Logies. This is like a
really dumb night. Australian TV celebs are completely up their
own arses. Who cares? Let me tell you, people do care.
And in fact, more people than I think even you
and I, Thomas, who do follow this stuff quite closely

(03:20):
and have always been a bit interested, even more than
we thought. Cared, cared. There was nearly a million people
who tuned in to the live free to air broadcast
of this on Channel seven on Sunday night. And you
know we can't really disclose the exact numbers of the
people who are at our coverage because, you know, it's
a closely guarded secret. And media, hundreds of thousands of people,

(03:41):
most of whom I don't think would have watched the
Logie ceremony, read our coverage, both the live blog that
Thomas was reporting from and our wraps and reviews and
analysis following. So I think, you know, it's an award show.
We do care about award shows, whether it's the Oscars
or the Emmys or the Grammys or the Logies. No

(04:01):
one is pretending that it is perfect. And it is
like a amazing summation of Australian culture. But people do
watch and they're interested. And I think at the very
least it does serve as a barometer on what people
in the industry and what Australians who watch television think
about TV. That's kind of my $0.02. On why it's
worth talking about. Thomas You've been going to the Logies

(04:23):
for like a decade, not to make you feel old,
but you are a a big TV head. Talk to
me about why you think the Logies matter.

S2 (04:31):
Yeah, I think like you said, it's always been one
of those things that's like a really easy punchline because
the Logies are very much imperfect and they're maybe tacky
and they've always been hamstrung by very strange voting categories
where some are just like publicly voted and some are
industry voting. And it's like easy to paint it as
a popularity contest, which it kind of is. And on

(04:52):
top of that, it's always just been viewed as a
bit lame. And it's the joke that everyone wants to make.
That being said, I think it was really interesting and
maybe a good reminder like we had two years of
no Logies as a result of the pandemic in 2020 and. 21.
And it was a case of be careful what you
wish for, like when when it was away, everyone missed it.
And you know, aside from the the actual night of

(05:15):
the Logie Awards, which is probably where a lot of
that like a lot of those jokes are aimed because
it can seem low rent. The reality is it's rewarding
an entire industry that works really hard, and especially in
the most outstanding categories which are industry voted. You know,
there's all these people that have spent a year working
on their craft, and when we didn't have that for

(05:36):
two years, that was a lot of people whose work
was overlooked and didn't get a chance to be appreciated
by an audience that often they wouldn't get access to.
So I do think, you know, however short the lodges fall,
they do matter. And we shouldn't be like listening to
those comments, just like, Oh, the logs are outdated or
the lodges are cancelled, the log is finished. We can
appreciate that they're not perfect, but we should be wanting

(05:56):
to keep them and improve them.

S1 (05:58):
Yeah, and believe me, we will definitely be talking about
how they are not perfect. We're having this conversation because
I think we have some significant issues with what happened
this year, but I think that's a really good summary. Mel,
you've been covering culture longer than I have in this country.
What's your kind of top line thoughts on this?

S3 (06:13):
I agree with both of you that the lodges are
not a perfect award ceremony by any stretch of the imagination.
But I do wonder and worry that we might shoot
ourselves in the foot when we make fun of things
like the lodges and actors and Aria awards, because these
are our awards for our and I see this in
quotations national culture. And I think by making fun of

(06:35):
those awards ceremonies, in some ways it's a kind of
reflection of cultural cringe and that Australian art and creativity
aren't worth celebrating. And obviously the flow on effect of
that is less of a place in Australian society for
the culture that we all love and less of a
promotion of the culture we love. Because why would we
invest in Australian content if we're all making fun of

(06:56):
the award ceremonies promoting Australian content? So while I agree
like it isn't, you know, made fun of the actors too,
because there's always one Australian show that wins every single
award and the Arias and, and they have.

S1 (07:08):
The worst name for an awards.

S3 (07:10):
It totally but when I think about it I do
I am concerned about the kind of flow on effects
of talking down our output as a country. And I think.

S2 (07:19):
You're adding to all that award shows. By nature, it's
way more fun to make fun of an award show
that is to be like, What a great awards night.
Like the nature of the type of event they are
really lends themselves to being picked apart. Yeah.

S1 (07:30):
And I think as kind of critics or as people
who write about and interrogate culture in this country, it
also makes sense to write about and interrogate the the
kind of ceremonies and structures that reward what is good culture,
because when things win lodges, that sends incentives to the
industry to make more. When stuff doesn't win Logies, that
suggests that it's not worthy enough. So whether you watch

(07:50):
it or don't watch it, whether you think it matters
or think it doesn't matter, it does impact what you
see on your screen and what kind of television gets made.
So I think I think it's probably enough of us
justifying why we are talking about this event. Thomas, you
mentioned this briefly, but because I think it's important to
the conversation around who wins. Do you mind running us

(08:10):
through like who actually determines these things? How do the
Logie Awards get decided?

S2 (08:15):
Yeah, so there are two different categories there's most popular
and most outstanding. So most popular is public voted and
that's done like via the internet using an online form
or via SMS. That change, I think came out about
in 2011, which seems remarkably late. But you know, yeah,
so that's ten categories and that's like most popular new talent,
most popular drama, most popular reality, and of course ultimately

(08:37):
the Gold Logie for the most popular personality on TV.
And then the second category is most outstanding, and that's
the industry voted. And a lot of the actual categories
are mirrored. So most popular reality show versus most outstanding
reality show. But these ones are industry voted. They often
are seen as perhaps the more prestigious because it's coming
from your peers and they are judged by a secret
100 they refer to them as. And that's a industry

(08:59):
body of, you know, directors, critics, producers, 100 people from
within the industry that vote on those awards.

S1 (09:06):
And that is also a new thing. Like previously, I
think there was like a a wider group of people
that kind of subbed in for different sorts of things
and was journalists and producers and whatever. This one seems
to be a little bit more modelled on like how
the Emmys and the Oscars kind of work with a
dedicated academy almost. But you still have that popular category

(09:26):
that supplements it and gets people voting. And this is
why you see in the lead up to the Logies,
like if you watch free to air television, there'll be
appeals coming up on the screen saying please vote for
like this show. Please vote for your favorite show to
the way to I guess, drum up support and engage
the punter in recent years before we get to Sunday night.

(09:48):
Have there been any particular Logie moments that you think
are worth reflecting on as an example of like why
these awards have shifted the needle in terms of what
we talk about and what we consider interesting in Australian TV?
Like to be honest, the most standout thing for me
is Tom Gleeson probably taking the piss. Out of the
whole thing.

S6 (10:09):
Turns out I'm just really good at manipulating the media
to get people to do things for me. Which, if
you think about it, it's why we're all here. So
maybe I do deserve this award.

S1 (10:24):
And gaming the award for Gold Logie, which is like
the most prestigious award for the most popular presenter on
Australian television. Thomas, do you mind sort of like reminding
us what exactly happened there?

S2 (10:35):
Yeah. So Tom Gleeson essentially basically looked to prove like
tongue firmly planted in cheek that the Logies, at least
that part of the Logies, the Gold Logie, were a
bit ridiculous in that you could just take advantage of,
you could convince the public to do something and it
wouldn't reflect the most popular person on TV. It would
just reflect whoever could galvanise the most people to vote.

(10:56):
So in 2018, he ran a very high profile campaign
to get Grant Denyer to win the Gold Logie. Now, Grant,
you know, he's a great game show host. Was he
arguably sensibly the most popular personality on Australian TV? Probably not.
But Tom Gleeson, who is very popular and host of
a very popular ABC quiz show, ran that campaign. And
lo and behold, Grant Daniel wins the Gold League in 2018.

S7 (11:22):
Tom Gleeson, where are you? Yeah, you're over there. Yeah.
Thanks for that hard chat, mate. I appreciate it. Sometimes
if you need to get some things done in this country,
you need a angry redhead. And Pauline Hanson wasn't available,
so I had you, mate. Thank you so much.

S2 (11:46):
The following year, Gleason doubles down and runs his own
campaign for gold, leveraging his own already established popularity.

S7 (11:52):
How does it feel to be twice as tall as me,
but only half successful? Depends how you define success. Winning
a Gold Logie.

S6 (12:01):
You only won it as a joke. When I win it,
it'll be for having a show that's actually popular and
on air.

S7 (12:07):
You hijacked my campaign, and now everyone thinks I won
a Gold Logie because you hijacked it. That's not a question.
It just shits me.

S2 (12:16):
And again, he wins the Gold Logie. And you know,
I remember I was working, I was freelancing actually for
TV Week, which is the magazine that kind of is
the name partner of the Logies. And I was in
their media room when he won and it was very
tense vibes because they didn't know how to handle him.

S1 (12:34):
And his speech was kind of taking the piss out.
He's like, I'm, I'm treating this industry with the respect
it deserves. Basically, he's like, It's a joke. I'm a joke.
You're all a joke.

S6 (12:45):
I can tell you this. I'm not the most popular
person on Australian television. I know I'm not. It's just
basic stats. You know, if this went to the most
popular personality on Australian TV, I'd go to someone from
Married at First Sight or the a rugby league player
in the State of Origin. I mean, that's what should happen.
But it doesn't for some reason. You've got to campaign

(13:05):
for it. But I can tell you this, I do
host the highest rating game show in Australia. So somewhere
in the joke, people forgot that this is mine.

S2 (13:20):
That was a very quite a memorable speech. And he
has a good point. But they, you know, were like, oh,
but this is our big thing. And he highlighted something
that is very true. The Gold Logie has been like
steeped in prestige and we love to see these images
of Bert and Graham Kennedy and the golden era of
Australian TV and but that's not the reality anymore. And
having a most popular personality category that has both actors

(13:41):
and presenters and it's so confusing and probably really needs
to have a conversation about the place of it, which
we definitely will following this year's win. But the place
of it in a cultural landscape of 2023. And that's
kind of what Gleeson highlighted.

S3 (13:53):
In saying that there's also been a few people who
have used the kind of Gold Logie speech as quite
a momentous occasion. I think when Waleed Ali won in 2016,
he gave quite a rousing speech about racism in the industry.

S8 (14:05):
Me being here right now really matters to them and
it matters to them for a particular reason. And that
reason was brought home shuddering early not so long ago, actually,
when someone who was in this room and I'm not
going to use their the name that they use in
the industry came up to me introduce themselves and said

(14:30):
to me, I really hope you win. My name is Mustafa.
But I can't use that name because I won't get
a job. He's here tonight. And it matters to people
like that that I'm here.

S3 (14:47):
And so you kind of see the two very different
responses to the award.

S2 (14:50):
It's rare in Australian culture to have a big platform
like that because we don't have many big awards nights
and that that speech often does become this like moment,
you know, Carrie bit more when she won famously launched
her like beanies for brain cancer after her first husband
passed away. We had Samuel Johnson, quite an emotional win
for playing Molly. And then he was kind of like
Molly stormed the stage and that created it. A strange

(15:12):
moment because Molly wasn't in the best form.

S3 (15:15):
So Taylor Swift situation wasn't finished.

S2 (15:18):
So it is this kind of window, I guess, for
a big moment. And it often delivers something to talk
about anyway.

S3 (15:23):
And also sometimes there are the big moments which actually
after the Logies, one of my favourite Logies adjacent moment
is our friend of the family, Karl Stefanovic. Post Logies
are front of the podcast network.

S1 (15:36):
Absolutely.

S3 (15:37):
Post Logies moment I think quite a few years ago.
Obviously a bit a whisper where on the Today show.
A lot of.

S9 (15:43):
Fun. Oh.

S4 (15:45):
It was a great night. It was a fantastic night.

S10 (15:47):
So Lisa has not slept and neither has Karl. I'm
talking about myself in the third person.

S4 (15:53):
Yeah. When did that.

S10 (15:54):
Start? I'm not sure. Let us have a quick look
at the weather now.

S2 (15:57):
And if you go back to 2013, there's a great
post Logies moment, which is a picture of me wearing
a pink tie and with Flo Ryder. So I mean
that really kind of.

S3 (16:06):
That sums it.

S2 (16:07):
Up. That really sums up the logos, isn't it?

S3 (16:09):
Quick question. We have discussed before, Tom Cruise, your photo
with Tom Cruise. Not not great. You weren't happy. Did
you get any photos on the red carpet this time?

S2 (16:17):
No, to be honest, it wasn't really the photo vibe.
It was it was very it was quite warm in
Sydney on Sunday and the carpet was like quite tight
and everyone was very hot and sweaty, so it wasn't. Yeah,
no pictures.

S1 (16:31):
I've got to say that you did a great job
on the red carpet. If you're interested in seeing Thomas
interview some great celebs. He was there with our colleague
Nicole from our social media team. You can check him
out on our TikTok at the Sydney Morning Herald and
the age that was really red in a really bad
voice than than it is, actually. It was actually quite
fun to watch you on the carpet. Okay. Let's talk

(16:52):
about some of the good bits of Sunday before we
start our dissection of where things started to go wrong.
One of the things I was most looking forward to
was Sam Pang as the host when he was announced.
I've always really enjoyed Sam Pang. I think he's like
quite fresh and different to most of the other kind
of funny presenters on TV and even on shows like

(17:13):
The Front Bar that he's on with Mike Molloy and
whoever else he's, he just feels different, like he's in
a kind of different league and he was really funny.

S11 (17:22):
I'd also like to acknowledge a win for diversity tonight.
I'm the first host in the history of the Logies
to be half and half, half Channel seven and half
Channel ten. Let's be honest, it's just great to have
an Asian on Channel seven. Who isn't trying to smuggle
live birds through border security.

S1 (17:45):
I think he did the right balance of being respectful,
but also taking the piss, being self-aware, making jokes about himself,
about the network that was airing at Channel seven. Some
of his jokes didn't quite work, and then he would
come back and find a way to make them land.
I enjoyed them.

S3 (18:02):
Yeah, I agree. If we had to give the drop,
Loki Sam is definitely getting it. I loved him on
Eurovision when he when he used to commentate that I
thought he was perfect for the Logies. Give me more.

S2 (18:12):
Sam Pang Yeah, I would be. I really hope it
comes back next year. I wonder what he'll do. He
was the first solo host in like 11 years since
Shane Born, and everyone I think was probably the most pre.
His excitement was to do with Sam Pang, which I
think speaks volumes again. But he was amazing. Like his
jokes were kind of note perfect. They weren't like there
were times I'm like, he could probably go harder, but
no one was safe. I loved when he like, kind

(18:34):
of took the piss out of Hamish explaining what a
mortgage is to Hamish Blake.

S11 (18:38):
Thank you. Hi. I really appreciate it. Some of us
have a mortgage. By the way, a mortgage is when
the bank loans out. Don't worry.

S2 (18:49):
There are a couple of Ben Roberts-Smith jokes, which I
appreciated because like he was on Channel seven, I thought
that was brave and really sussed.

S3 (18:55):
Amy Shark Yeah, he died.

S2 (18:57):
He SAS Amy Shark and he, you know, he very
much took the piss out of himself. So I think
in terms of the Sam Pang experience, people didn't really
have a bad word to say.

S1 (19:06):
The other thing that I did enjoy about these awards,
like the Logies, have rightly been very criticised for being
an extremely like non diverse affair and maybe that's an
unfair thing to pin on the locals because they just
reflecting what is happening in Australian TV culture more generally.
But I feel like this year in particular it felt
like the Logies for like brief glimpse for a little

(19:29):
bit more reflective of the rest of the country, like
having Tony Armstrong, who nominated again and then winning the Logie.
Michael Smith This is like a bittersweet one, right? Like
Michael Smith from Mystery Road being nominated for the Gold
was really exciting, but him being the first ever indigenous
person in the history of these awards nominated is like

(19:52):
also pretty shameful. And Waleed still being the only non
like white person ever to win the Logie is a
bit disappointing, but it did feel exciting. And seeing the
Heartbreak High cast Asha Madden they're performing as well. Like
it felt like maybe we're finally getting a little bit
closer to an industry that looks like and sounds like
the rest of the country in terms of specific wins

(20:13):
that I enjoyed. I thought Colin from accounts emerge as
one of the key winners of the night and really
deservedly so, like winning most outstanding comedy and actor and
actress for Patrick Bramwell and Harriet Dyer, who are also
a couple and also co-wrote and produced that show together.
They seem like really good people. And Thomas, you spoke

(20:34):
to them on the red carpet and you got a
little bit of Goss on how they were able to
attend the event.

S2 (20:40):
Yeah, well, they're both kind of they live and work
in LA and they both have appeared in numerous American
TV programs. And yeah, they had to get like a
special dispensation from SAG to attend. They got permission. There's
a lot of chat right now about kind of waivers
and I guess increasingly more visible people getting what seems
like getting around the strike rules. But that wasn't the

(21:02):
case for them. But they did have to get permission,
which I thought was interesting. And and then they both
spoke to me about, you know, like Patrick is currently
writing a series for an American streamer, but he's pens
down on that. So yeah, I think they were very
excited to be able to come once they knew they
were in the clear and they stole the show. It's funny,
every year there's often like something heartwarming that's like becomes
the the nice storyline. And it was very much Patrick Bramwell.

(21:23):
And Harriet died this year. They were hilarious on stage.
They seem to be on camera every like five minutes.
But yeah, all of their acceptance speeches were great. And
that show, I think has been really embraced that binge show.
So yeah, it was it was a worthy winner.

S3 (21:33):
It's such a fantastic show and well worth a watch.
People who haven't seen it yet. Guys, what did you
think about the difference between the popular vote and the
outstanding vote? Because as we were just saying, Colin from
Accounts really crushed the outstanding vote but didn't seem to
get the popular vote.

S2 (21:48):
Well, yes, this is the thing, isn't it? Like, you know,
have you been paying attention, has won that most popular
comedy or entertainment program for years running and then it
was also nominated for Most outstanding as it always is,
but it never wins that like and there is this
funny disconnect. I thought the weirdest one, I was so
sure Heartbreak High was going to win most popular drama,
and it obviously went to home in a way. And
this is, I think, where people who don't really engage

(22:10):
the lodges start to get disconnected because they're like home
and away.

S1 (22:13):
Like what? Yeah, I think there's a real skew to
free to air shows in particular in the popular category
because that's where you mobilize voters, right? Like Channel seven,
who was the broadcast partner this year has a big
incentive to get all of its shows to win. So
they push. You watch any Channel seven show, you watch
the John Farnham, you know, the Voice documentary, and they're

(22:33):
running a strap down the bottom saying, make sure to
vote for your favorite Channel seven stars, even in the
Channel seven News in the lead up to the Logies,
they were telling you to go and vote for your
favorite Channel seven star. And that's just not something that
Netflix can mobilize. Like you're never going to going to
go on Netflix and on the homepage. It'll be like,
Go vote for your favorite show on the log. So
I think that divergence between popular and outstanding is becoming

(22:54):
increasingly like clear and quite sharp as we get all
these pretty interesting and funny and poignant dramas and comedies
that are on streaming platforms, but you still end up
with like Home and Away, and then you end up
with what I think is one of the most frustrating
and disappointing outcomes is like Amy Shark winning Best New

(23:15):
Talent against Two Heartbreak High Stars for a judging kind
of role on Australian Idol, which is a show that
very few people watch this year that's just not reflective
of what is going on in terms of what people
are watching. Did you guys feel similarly about that?

S3 (23:32):
I do. And I think as well as obviously there's
a difference in the streaming platforms and their capacity to
mobilize voters, and that is inherently tied to a generational difference.
And I think the logic is skewing to a much
older audience. The TV ratings would be interesting to see.
The breakdown of the age categories is. Skewing towards a
much older audience, which is why shows with much older

(23:52):
audiences like Home and Away and have you been paying
attention are winning. Whereas streaming platforms and shows skewing towards
younger people who are not engaged in the Logies probably
don't even know it's on don't even know to vote
or why voting would matter.

S2 (24:05):
But it's so funny because if you looked at the like,
you know, the viewing hours for Heartbreak High on Netflix
around the world, like if Netflix did two days of
running a banner on the Netflix like splash screen that
was like vote for your favourite heartbreak High Star. They
would fucking crush it. It would be a no contest
because like the viewing hours of how many people watch
Heartbreak High versus how many people still watch Home in

(24:25):
a way is like a no contest.

S1 (24:27):
It's a really interesting idea. I wonder whether they will
do something like this like we've seen in the States.
The streamers get on board running campaigns and funding events
for things like the Oscars and the Emmys. But I
guess Australia is seen as a little bit too small fry,
but I wonder whether it would really help them be
seen as like a prestigious, significant platform if they could,

(24:47):
you know, because when you go on Netflix and you
see a show, it will sometimes say like, this has
won this many Oscars. It's award winning, blah, blah, blah.
But they can only do that with international shows. They
can't do that with early innings in shows yet because
they haven't won the big awards for them. So it
may be something that they look into. That's an interesting
one to watch.

S3 (25:05):
Yeah, And man, I love seeing the Heartbreak High kids
on the red carpet. I thought they were so fresh.
I know, because there were so many kind of familiar
faces from the last kind of 50 years, which.

S2 (25:16):
Obviously good to see you again for his 800th Logies.
Whereas whereas those guys are like firstly, they're all like
really cool and like look amazing, like dressing best fits
and everything and also like super excited to be there.
That all come as a group like it was the same.
Went to the actors last year and like the Heartbreak
High cast stole the show and like they were just
like the best vibe. Everyone was like getting around them.
And it was the same thing this year at the Luigi's.

S1 (25:37):
I think the other thing about the Heartbreak High Gang
is that they represent like the future of Australian television,
which is something that the Logies I think need to
get better at doing. I think you made this point, Thomas,
on the night in the blog like there's too often
these moments of the Logies, which are harking back to
television of 20, 30, 40 years ago, and it's sort
of just reminding all the executives who've been running the

(25:59):
show for 50 years, ha ha ha, like this one's
for you. But what they need to do is get
more younger people excited about this event, about Australian television
and more heartbreak. High kinds of people, more coming from
accounts type stuff like the ensemble cast of the 12,
which includes actors like Sam Neil, but a lot of
younger actors as well. Like that to me should be

(26:20):
heroes a bit more to get us really excited about
Australian stories.

S2 (26:24):
Yeah, I think like every year there's always like and like,
you know, no disrespect, but like there's always kind of
like the allusions to like Bird and Graham in that year.
And that was, that's a very important part of the legacy.
And it's not that we shouldn't be honouring that, but
like I would make the argument that like it's really
been honoured and I think there is a we should
be starting to see a shift towards like, like why
didn't the Heartbreak High cast like presenting an award? Like

(26:46):
how to me would have been a no brainer to
like get the Bluey team to do an animation where
Bluey presents an award? Like aside from the fact they're
two of our biggest cultural exports over the last year,
they're also like the things that new audiences care about. Like,
do we need to have a sketch about like Bert
and Patti Newton? Like, again, No, not that they're so important,
but like, if we're trying to safeguard the future and
improve this award, like these are the things they should be.

S3 (27:06):
Doing, I guess the challenge for them is how do
they bring a new audience in without alienating their existing
audience who only want to see the David Hughes of
the world on screen?

S1 (27:16):
Let's get to the big one. This is something that
I was thinking about in the days leading up to
the award. I think, Thomas, you can testify to the
fact that I had a had a feeling this was
going to happen and I was sort of.

S2 (27:28):
Prepared for I told you you were wrong. And lo
and behold, you were right.

S1 (27:32):
So maybe the best place to start, right? So the
Gold Logie is the most prestigious award handed out. It's
had a funny history. Aside from the stories we mentioned
about Tom Gleason kind of, you know, having fun with it,
like Lisa McKeown won it for four years in a
row in the 90s. I think Rove McManus won it
three years in a row. So, you know, it's interesting.

(27:54):
It certainly is very well respected. And when people like
Waleed and Kerry win and use that platform to give speeches,
it's seen as a really transcendent moment for Australian entertainment
industry culture. This year there were basically two favourites for it,
I think. Hamish Blake from Lego Masters and Sonia Kruger
from assorted seven programmes. And according to the betting odds,

(28:17):
Hamish was the favourite. You know, he's won it twice
before he won it last year. He is, I think,
objectively more popular than almost anyone else in the race.
He's on more popular shows. He's one of the most
beloved and nicest guys in Australian TV, but it also
seemed like he was not running that seriously. He wasn't
doing massive media appearances. Even when you tried to speak

(28:39):
to him on the red carpet, Tom, it's like he
wasn't that keen to do it, which I thought was
really telling because for the first year ever, voting for
the Gold Logie only was open the entire broadcast. So
if you really wanted to win that award, you would
use the red carpet as your opportunity to plug yourself.

S2 (28:56):
Also worth noting that for the first time ever, a
Gold Logie nominee hosted the red carpet coverage for the
network that was broadcasting the Logies.

S1 (29:05):
And that brings us to Sonia Kruger, who was very
present across everything. She was the person that the Channel
Seven News team was, was reminding viewers to to vote for.
She hosted the red carpet coverage. A lot of Channel
seven personalities like Dr. Chris Brown, the the handsome vet
who's jumped ship. Channel seven was doing really awkward statements
about why she should win. It seemed very clear that

(29:26):
Channel Seven was putting a lot of time and effort
and resources into getting her the gold, and I started
to think that seemed likely to happen because of what
Hamish was not really doing. And I started to feel
like a little bit like queasy about it, to be
really honest. Sonia Kruger For people who don't know, has
like a not insignificant controversy section on a Wikipedia page.

(29:49):
But the thing that is the real standout, at least
for me, these comments she made in 2016 and we
should say the comments were made on the Today Show,
which is broadcast on nine and nine, owns our newspapers,
the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.

S5 (30:01):
Personally, I think Andrew Bolt has a point here that
there is a correlation between the number of people who,
you know, are Muslim in a country and the number
of terrorist attacks. Now I have a lot of very
good friends who are Muslim, who are peace loving, who
are beautiful people, but there are fanatics. And does the
population and the correlation between those two things, is it

(30:22):
having an impact? I mean, if you look at Japan,
Japan has a population of and.

S1 (30:26):
She says that personally I would like to see it.
The immigration of Muslims stopped now for Australia.

S4 (30:33):
Just to clarify, are you saying that you would like
our borders closed to Muslims at this point? Yes, I would.

S5 (30:38):
I would because I think at this is.

S4 (30:40):
The Donald Trump.

S5 (30:40):
I think we have something like 500,000 now in our
country and and well, perhaps it is. But for the
safety of the citizens here, I think it's important.

S1 (30:50):
And that was 2016. The context of that was Donald Trump, obviously,
you know, trying to do the same kind of thing.
Those comments were like, I don't want to say widely condemned,
but they were condemned by lots of people in Australia
and particularly high profile Muslim Australians as well. She was
taken to the New South Wales Civil and Administrative Tribunal
and in 2019 that tribunal found that she had vilified

(31:13):
Muslims over those comments. The tribunal said that while Kruger
had made it clear she did not think every Muslim
in Australia overseas was a fanatic. Taken in context, her
comments were likely to encourage or incite feelings of hatred
towards or serious contempt for Australian Muslims as a whole
by linking them to terrorist attacks. Now that's that's like

(31:35):
not a small controversy. That's a pretty big, heavy thing
that is sort of stuck around. And Kruger has never
publicly walked those comments back or apologize for them. So
for someone like me, seeing her inch closer towards receiving
one of the most prestigious awards that this country gives
to people and certainly the most prestigious award we give

(31:57):
out in the entertainment industry was a little bit like
distressing and upsetting seeing her win that award was case
a confirmation of like a lot of the uneasiness I
had felt. And as someone who covers television every day,
it's my job. Do it with you guys. Do it
with our great team. Who cares a lot about this

(32:18):
country's cultural output? The stories we tell, seeing that recognized
and seeing that person put on that platform without ever
having expressed any contrition alongside the likes of Waleed and
Carrie and beating people like Michael Smith and and Hamish Blake,
it left me feeling really distressed and sad and depressed

(32:39):
about where we are as as a country. There's a
lot to get into. And I'm sorry that I'm probably
waffling on a little bit, but I think one of
the things that's really stood out to me this whole
time is there's no way this would ever happen at
the Emmys or at the Oscars or at the Grammys.
Like there is no way it would happen. And if
someone like that was even nominated, there would be very

(33:01):
vocal public protests and backlash to it. And I think
what I'm more interested in, or at least like what
I'm really interested in, is talking about why there seems
to have been so little discussion in the lead up
to these awards after she was nominated and in the
aftermath in Australia when I think it would have happened
in the UK, it would have happened in the US.

(33:24):
I understand I've got more of a personal sort of
connection to this thing, given my background than either of
you guys. But I am interested in hearing how you
guys felt about that award either in their lead up
or afterwards. I know, Thomas, you've spoken to heaps of people.
You were there that night. How did you feel? Anything
you want to you want to share?

S2 (33:40):
Yeah. I mean, it was a very interesting moment because
obviously you and I had discussed that. And to me anyway,
I thought that was a very obvious thing that people
were going to be up for discussing. And the way
it works, basically, you know, whoever wins the Gold Logie,
they go up on stage, they do their speech, then
they go into one media room, which is run by

(34:01):
TV Week, and they do some interviews and get some
photos done for the following weeks magazine. Then they come
into a general media room where like a press pack
is waiting and, you know, they get some photos and
they answer questions. And Sonia came in and, you know,
she faced a few questions. And I was kind of
like waiting, waiting for someone to bring it up. And
I knew that I wanted to talk about it. And

(34:22):
then when I did get my chance to speak with Sonia,
we we spoke about lots of different things. But when
we kind of came to this moment that I wanted
to discuss with her, especially because it is worth noting,
like the the not backlash, but the reaction to her
win was pretty instantaneous, both in terms of like know
there were people supporting her, but there were people that
immediately brought this up because like you said, it is

(34:43):
a significant part of her career and she's had ups
and downs. But this is like, yeah, this is on
the Wikipedia list. And when I brought it up with her,
to be honest, Sonia, it seemed a bit lost for
words and then it was promptly shut down by the
publicist running the room. And it was kind of like,
This is not for discussion tonight. This is a big
golden moment. And that was the end of that. And
I was really surprised. And and I wasn't surprised, though,

(35:06):
that the next day lots of stories followed yours. Oseman
kind of raising this because it is worth talking about.
And I think specifically and this is my biggest issue
with it, you know, it's not about she ever made
these comments as as bad as they are, people say
things and later regret them. And that's you know that's okay.
But the fact that they've never been addressed, never been

(35:26):
talked about, never been walked back, never even like come
up again. And that was probably the most jarring thing
for me and a lot of people that I've spoken
to since, as sad as this sounds, people were like, Oh,
I just forgot about it. I just forgot that she
ever said them. And you know, it was 2016, I think,
when the comments were made. But a lot of people
just seem to it didn't even register on their radar
or it's just been like wiped.

S3 (35:47):
And it was an opportunity that maybe she could have
used the platform to issue a kind of apology and
to make a more positive statement to correct the past.
But she kind of didn't want to address it and
hasn't addressed it since, which I think is a real
missed opportunity for her. If she has changed from those
views she held in 2016, it would have been an

(36:09):
opportunity to talk about why she's changed and why she
said what she said at the time and how she
feels now. But the complete absence of addressing those comments
makes you think she maybe maybe those comments are still
what she believes.

S2 (36:22):
Yeah, and I think what's particularly interesting is that, you know,
it's not to say that anyone in any other awards
ceremony in the world, especially you said, the UK and
the US, like it's not to say that anyone hasn't
won an award that probably has some serious skeletons in
the closet. But the thing about this is that it's
the most popular award. So it's not like, you know,
Sonia's won an award for acting and even though she's
a bit, you know, problematic, but like, you know, her

(36:44):
performance in X was really good. This is the most
popular like this is voted because people like her and
like what she represents and what she does on screen,
but like it's the whole package. And so, like, that
does really make this this incident important in the context
of that win.

S3 (36:58):
But also, what is it with Australian TV that like
once you get a hosting job, you just have it
for the rest of your life forever, like you do
one Dancing with the Stars and then you will be like,
I think it speaks to what we often talk about
the need for fresh talent because you just have these
same people and it's almost like maybe you get a
hall pass for your errors because you know you've done

(37:18):
so many other things and you do so many other
things and there's no one to replace you or the
perception that there's no one to replace you. But it's
kind of like, are you I feel like so many
of so many hosts are unfavourable to some extent, yeah.

S1 (37:30):
It's a lot of a lot of talk about like,
do you want to cancel this person? You know, you
don't want this person to never be on TV again.
Australian TV is never at risk of that. Like when
Darrell Summers is still hosting Dancing with the Stars with
Sonia Kruger and he handed her the Gold Logie. And
and to be honest, like, I don't even know if
the argument here is Sonia Kruger should be off TV

(37:51):
or Senator Krueger should not be eligible for the gold logo.
Sonia Kruger could never win an award. I don't really
think that's what this is about. I think it's about
exactly what you guys were just saying, is the fact
that without needing to reckon with those comments or really
anyone in the industry asking her to reckon with them
and what's happened since 2016, it's not like she said

(38:11):
something at a time that was particularly bad and now
we live in this great land of fairies and meadows
like the sum of phobia across the Western world has
has increased. The far right is more emboldened than. Ever
like these are things. These are ideas. These are the
kinds of bits of rhetoric that like, I think, do
have an impact on the way people feel and the
kinds of conversations we have in this country. And so

(38:34):
the idea that you can say something like that and
the entertainment industry, which in so many other ways regards
itself as very progressive and like bleeding hot. Like there
was a moment where Rachel Perkins, who runs black fellow
films and one allergy, she led the crowd in a
chant of like, vote yes, vote yes for the upcoming
referendum on on the Voice. So people want to think

(38:57):
of themselves as being like really well-meaning, and they're trying
the best to fix diversity. But at the same time,
no one really wants to talk about this. Like, I
still think it's odd that a few days after the event,
the only people who've really written about this are like me,
another Muslim guy in and a muslim colleague of ours

(39:17):
who writes for pedestrian. There hasn't really been anyone else
coming out and saying this is a little bit weird. Like,
what does this mean? Does this mean there is no bar?
There's nothing that anyone can say, no tribunal finding that
can be delivered. That means that you have to at
least grapple with what you've said in the impact of
what you said. Before we shower you with the biggest

(39:38):
award we have as an industry and in particular, I
think what I'm really sad about is out of the
thousands of people that attended the Logies and were there
and were part of the anointing of Kruger, many of
them have contacted me personally and said, Thanks for writing
that piece like lots of them have, and that's really nice.
But none of them have said anything publicly, and I
think that speaks to a general insularity in this industry.

(40:00):
It's very small. Everyone knows everyone. No one wants to
annoy powerful people. No one wants to be seen as
being a troublemaker. I know that. I sound like I'm
kind of contradicting myself. I'm not necessarily angry at those people.
I'm not demanding anyone does anything. But I think it is.
Reflective of how things work here. And I think that's
worth noting and I'm glad that I got to write

(40:21):
that piece and I'm glad that people read it and
I'm glad that I can talk about it with you guys,
because I do think it's a bit of a nadir.
And I hope that even if there isn't heaps of
public conversation about this, people are thinking about it and
are talking about it and are going to start expecting
a little bit better from who we decide to anoint
as the biggest television personality in this country. Thomas are

(40:46):
you at all surprised about the lack of discourse publicly
from people, or are you just like, this is how
this industry kind of operates?

S2 (40:54):
Yeah, I guess I am. And I'm not like I
probably not because as you said, you know, Australian TV
is a small pond and even the people at the
top are worried about their next job. I guess I
found it uneasy to watch what was a very high
profile campaign from seven and seven talent pushing Sonya on

(41:16):
your Sonya. And you know, I having previously worked at
the Seven Network and knowing a lot of these people
and knowing kind of like where they stand on things,
I just found it interesting to kind of watch, you know,
this very public support. And I struggled to reconcile knowing
how they feel about certain things. And then the public
support for someone who has said these things. And yeah,

(41:37):
it does make for an interesting kind of like dynamic,
but like even someone like Nazeem Hussain, the comedian, you know,
he he did publicly tweet following Sonia's win saying he
was returning from a gig in New Zealand. Like, am
I just seeing Sonia Kruger's kind of like won the gold?
Am I going to be allowed back in the country?
He later removed that tweet and like, I don't know
why he did that, but, you know, potentially it was like,

(41:59):
is this is this worth it for me? Is this
worth it? Maybe putting the powers that be at one
of the biggest networks in Australia where hopefully we'll get
some work at some point, like offside because I'm like
pissed off about this personally. Like I'll just sleep on
it and just have to get over it. I mean, again,
that's just me reading between the lines, but it's just
one of those things that it is. It is a
small pond and it's hard to get work at the

(42:19):
best of times. And so people are no doubt feeling like,
is it worth risking my potential future earnings by kind
of coming out and saying what I think you rather
just like I'll just internalize it and move on.

S1 (42:31):
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And
I think, again, you know, the more I thought about it,
nothing I've said about this or am saying about this
is some sort of plea for people to speak up
and do whatever. I think I was pretty clear in
the the article I wrote about it that. Everything you
said is right. Like this is a structural problem across
this industry and it's not a moral failing to not

(42:53):
want to risk your livelihood. Right. To like take a
shot at someone. Because you can also argue that like,
what does that do after the fact? You know, it
makes you kind of feel feel good or like send
a bit of a signal. But is that changing anything
for the better? Not necessarily. I think ultimately I just
hope that the people who did read mine and others
stories on this and see how it hurts the people

(43:16):
who are at the nexus of these two things like
being Muslim and caring too much about Australian TV. I
don't know how many of us there are, but like
those of us in particular, like I'm upset because I
am one of the weirdos who is invested in the
lodges and is invested in Australian television and it makes
me feel really deflated that people I know that I
work with, that I report on that I've known for
a long time. Saw this happen, helped make it happen.

(43:40):
And then when it did happen. Didn't do anything about it.
That's the thing that leaves me feeling the sort of flattest.
And I think as we see this prestige, amazing world
of television coming out of the US and we're at
to talk about The Bear, which is a show that
is like fun and diverse and exciting. And you see
their cast on strike fighting for their colleagues and pushing

(44:01):
forward really interesting ideas about what it means to make
art and what the purpose of acting and writing is.
It's just a big contrast, I think, to what we
saw on Sunday night.

S3 (44:10):
Yeah, and I know this doesn't make everything better, but
I think we're all very proud to work at a
publication and to see you publish that piece, which was
so brilliant. And if people haven't read it, they should
definitely go and read it. And like maybe it's a
bit naively optimistic, but I do think a piece like
that will make a difference for people who maybe haven't

(44:31):
thought about these issues or have only thought about it
a little. I do have faith that pieces like your
piece will kind of change the dial, even if it's
only a small start.

S2 (44:40):
And then this time next year you'll be up on
that platform holding the Gold Logie Inshallah that.

S3 (44:47):
We are going to campaign hard.

S1 (44:50):
Should we? Should we? All three of us are on TV.
We have like, you know, regular bits on today, extra
on Channel nine. We should nominate ourselves for most popular
or outstanding presenters. If Amy can do it for judging
a show no one watches.

S3 (45:03):
You could be best new talent. Thomas I love.

S2 (45:04):
That. I would actually love that. Of course I would
give a cracking.

S1 (45:08):
Get Thomas ology. The campaign starts. This is great. Let's
move on to something way more fun and less grim.
The Bear. We had a great chat about it last week.
Mel was roasted by all her family, friends and bosses

(45:30):
at this company. I want I go to you first, Mel,
because I've got a feeling that I know what you're
going to say the second of five episodes of this show.
How did that make you feel about this season?

S3 (45:41):
Tell me, what do you think I'm going to say?

S1 (45:43):
Well, I think you're going to say they're fucking great.
And it changed my view entirely because I personally like
while I was close to the Thomas than you, I
had some quibbles about it, but I honestly think these
five episodes were like five of the best episodes of
TV I've seen this year.

S3 (45:57):
Yeah, I mean, I don't really need to comment. You've
said it for me. I don't I don't wind back
my kind of like Sonia Kruger. Don't wind back my
my former comments. I think 1 to 5 I my
points all still stand it was a bit obvious and
a bit sickly sweet. And I do think there was
still moments of that in the last five episodes, like

(46:18):
there were still a few obvious feelgood or overly sentimental moments.
But I do think episode six and seven, which was
the family Christmas Fishers and Forks were pretty amazing episodes
and also the finale. So yeah, it definitely won me
over because the good started to outweigh what I saw.
Is that the bad in the show? There you go.

(46:40):
Go on. I'm just go on.

S1 (46:42):
Have you gloating moment.

S2 (46:43):
I've been doing it like for the last two days,
ever since. I was like, Actually, the bed is pretty good.
I put my hand up, I was wrong. And I
was like, Well, let me get that on tape. Okay?

S3 (46:51):
I never said I was wrong.

S1 (46:53):
She didn't say that on tape. No.

S2 (46:54):
That's sort of triggering to now.

S3 (46:56):
Yes. Yes. Can I just say sorry? I walked into
the office the other day and Thomas was like, oh,
we can't talk about it anymore. And Thomas and another colleague,
music writer Rob Moran, had been discussing my views on
the podcast before I came into the office. Thomas was
reading Rob My Slack conversation with him. It's been a
real yeah, because I've been very ostracised.

S2 (47:17):
You have? But you've come around now and I'm glad
that you have a heart and you can feel things.
And I really do think, you know, I loved the
first five episodes, but wow, this show like really picked
up in episode 6 to 10. Like, honestly, probably the
best show of the year for me, including succession, like
just the way it like, grabbed your heart and just
fucking squeezes it. It was beautiful. And I know we

(47:40):
have a lot to talk about, but the finale I
thought was also it was a very hard show to
wrap up because it does play in those areas. That
can be cliched, but it did it so well and
as well as very obviously setting up a third season.
But in that back half, it delivered some of the
best moments of TV, which I would love to discuss.

S1 (47:57):
I reckon at the end of the year we're going
to do like a best of TV catch up. I
did not expect to find myself in this position, but
I do think that after these five episodes it is
head to head with succession like it may creep over
the line. I think there's a little bit of recency
bias for me, having just watched it and gone through
like this emotional roller coaster with it. But it is extraordinary.
Let's start let's talk a little bit about that sixth episode,

(48:19):
Fishes The Christmas one. This is the one, Thomas, that
you sort of foreshadowed, has an stacked cast, an incredible cast.
But what I thought, what I didn't expect, having heard
that there were all these cameos. Normally when that's done
in a show like this, it's like for comedic effect.
It's like we got Gillian Jacobs and you know, we
got Bob Odenkirk in there from funny shows and they're

(48:41):
having a great time. And there was definitely like some
humor in this episode, but this was overwhelmingly a very
traumatic and stressful episode that was full of drama, full
of tension, but also helped us understand why the, the
Bear family are like kind of fucked up and why
Carmy is haunted and driven by these certain things. And
we saw things that explained a lot, but also set

(49:03):
things up in a narrative sense for the rest of
this season. It was such a smart and impressive feat
while also introducing us to these big actors that there
was a risk that we'd get distracted by them. I
just thought, I've never seen an ensemble cameo episode done this.

S3 (49:19):
Well, yeah, I agree. And I thought Jamie Lee Curtis,
who plays Khamis mum, was just sensational, like just on
a knife edge of emotions between kind of being really
happy to being completely unhinged. And that episode just, I
guess it is kind of like some of the best
succession episodes. There was no let up of the tension
and it just built and built and built and it

(49:40):
was almost too much, wasn't it? It was more suffocating
in many ways than being in the kitchen because you
didn't know what was going to happen or where it
was going to go and there was no real reprieve.

S2 (49:48):
Yeah, it actually kind of weirdly reminded me of Bor
on the floor, like because they're all sitting around. It's like,
you know, the table, the kitchen table, the dining table
is like a big part of the episode. And it's
similar to boring the floor when, you know, Logan is
kind of going around mind fucking everyone. It's just that, yeah,
it is. That tension doesn't let up. And like, I mean,
we do spend some time in the kitchen. You've got
Khamis mum like making this insane seven fish dish, like

(50:10):
Italian tradition. You've got this buzzer like timer going off.
There's like sauce splattering everywhere. And then we get to
the dinner and it's like Christmas dinner, and it's just
like this fucking mental illness, like, laid out on the
table for everybody. And then you've got Kimmy's older brother
who's still alive.

S1 (50:24):
Until throwing forks. Yeah.

S2 (50:26):
Like, and it's just, I mean, I think anyone who
comes from, like, a large family or any family at all,
everyone's weird in their own way, can empathize and kind
of like tap into that weirdness that kind of is
comes to the surface when you put all those people
in the same room. But when you do have all
these different dynamics and obviously a lot of. Kind of
like scar tissue in that family from wounds of the past.

(50:46):
It just was so, like, uncomfortable but like intoxicating to
watch it. And then especially again, I love this so
much about the bear. Like Carmy is just has been
such a fucking background character this season. And like that
episode was not about he barely spoke in that episode,
saved for like one quite nice scene with his brother.
It was all about, you know, the mom and Bob

(51:07):
Odenkirk character and Mikey, the older brother played by Jon
Bernthal and, and yeah. And then in a way it
sets up the rest of the season because we get
a lot of things signposted.

S1 (51:16):
Fun fact for you. Gillian Jacobs Right. Who we know
from community she know who her partner is in real life.

S2 (51:23):
Yeah. Yes, I do, actually.

S3 (51:24):
Yeah, we, I think we went, we were going down
this deep dive. But refresh our memory.

S1 (51:29):
It's Christopher Dora the.

S2 (51:32):
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

S3 (51:34):
I love her in love. That show on Netflix. Did
you ever watch that? Yeah.

S2 (51:38):
Loves love also. I don't know. But like, fun fact
is kind of my IP, so I just wonder.

S1 (51:43):
Well, actually, no, I started it back. Yeah, but I
made it was the first one to do it. And
you ripped it out of my hands.

S2 (51:48):
It wasn't very fun.

S12 (51:48):
When you did it.

S3 (51:49):
You just did. Fact. I think you're right, though. None
of the none of the cameos overshadowed each other. Like
they worked so well as an ensemble. Gillian Jacobs, I
thought was great. Just like throwing up in the background,
this very kind of physical embodiment of what was playing
out at the table. Bob Odenkirk Building that tension with
the fork was perfection. Yeah, I think as a team,

(52:09):
they all worked so well.

S1 (52:11):
Did you got a bit of a bit of Osmond
Thomas Vibes, the Bernthal Oh yeah.

S2 (52:15):
I did, yeah. Just two alphas going at it.

S3 (52:18):
I don't know what that makes me.

S2 (52:20):
You're Donna.

S3 (52:25):
Wow.

S2 (52:25):
But then and I think what's again, so incredible is
that that episode I finished it, I was like, oh
my God, so much PTSD in watching that, but amazing.
And then lo and behold, episode seven, I'm like, Is
this even fucking better? Richie Oh.

S1 (52:37):
Gosh. So I reckon this is even better. Like, I
reckon it is actually better because I've been a Richie
guy from day one. You love Richie and him having
his own arc and it making sense and it being
so beautiful about him finding meaning in life, about him
understanding what hospitality really is about. A cameo from Oscar

(52:59):
winner Olivia Colman, two Oscar winners in a row. At
the end, a Taylor Swift needle drop love story like
my favorite Taylor Swift song. I know. It's like a
real basic take, but it is.

S2 (53:09):
This, those big open areas. There's a lot of it was.

S1 (53:11):
Like it was made for me. It's like my guy
doing the hospital thing, singing along to Taylor Swift, Olivia
Colman in there peeling mushrooms, just like fantastic stuff.

S3 (53:22):
I agree. Richie completely stole this season for me. I
do have one small quibble with do you? My only issue,
and again, this was what was annoying me in the
first with these standalone issues.

S1 (53:32):
I thought you might have some thoughts about this because
this is the most like guy goes on journey and
realizes the meaning of life kind of episode.

S3 (53:39):
Exactly. And I loved I love the episode, I love
the repetition of the getting up and looking at the clock.
The scene with Gillian Jacobs was heartbreaking, the singing in
the car. But then it just upset me a little.
It was tied off, I thought, quite neatly. In the end,
when he goes back to the restaurant and he's like,
Now I'm ready to be a project manager. Like it
happened very fast, all in one episode.

S1 (53:58):
Yeah, I wear suits now and I'm like, I've been
here for a week, like five days and now I'm
like a professor. Like, I understand that. And I think,
you know, this is it's like more like traditional TV
than the prestige stuff that we're used to, where there's
still so much complex and nuance. But like, I get that.
Mel Like, I do get it. But also it was
also great to see him like to change and to

(54:20):
learn and then enact some of those things and maybe
next season will see him unravel a bit. Like, I
feel like we're never just going to this show brings
people forward and then watches them fall as well. I
think that's the thing it does. How did you find
the Richie Thomas?

S2 (54:34):
Yeah, I thought it was amazing to watch him kind
of like, you know, the season basically begins with him
talking about purpose and like setting up this whole thing
for the show. But he is someone that has been
like probably like a massive dick for the whole show.
Like he he's he's that person that everyone kind of knows.
And you like him, but he's like pretty annoying, but
he's lovable. And then to find his place was really nice. Yeah.

(54:56):
Like again there was lots of magic of TV. Like
in a week he becomes this amazing front of house
guy and, you know, he just it all clicks and.
And that's all good. But I was prepared to suspend,
you know, my belief and let that wash over me.
And I thought it was like there were some really
beautiful moments when he goes to get the deep dish
and then the chef, like, recreates the, like, you know,
kind of like up markets, the deep dish. And he's
so because he's so like Chicago proud and stuff. And

(55:17):
so he was so like happy to give those people
that Chicago experience and stuff. And yeah, it was it
was a very beautiful episode. I do just need to
draw something from the record. Ari The Rich Yep. So
Mel and I were texting and she said, I really liked.

S1 (55:33):
The texting without me.

S2 (55:35):
This is like, Yeah, yeah. It's called Don't Chat to
Osman Threads. Probably my favorite one. Oh, I really liked
the rich. Yep. And I said, Me too. So nice.
And then Mel said I liked it until his redemption.
And then I said, Why are you so dead inside?
And she said, I'm not dead inside. I just don't
like predictable art.

S1 (55:54):
That sounds like you're dead inside, frankly.

S12 (55:55):
Thank you.

S1 (55:56):
What? Literally what it said.

S3 (55:57):
I just thought it was so nuanced and subtle until
that last kind of bow was put on it. And
I thought he was a very restrained actor. And the
emotions were restrained, but real. And yeah, I just don't
think they needed to tie it all up so quickly.
But I understand why for the purposes of plot they did.

S1 (56:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, again, it's annoying because you're
not wrong. Like it is literally the most Ted lasso
episode of the show. Like you are right in that
and I think it just maybe, you know, maybe Thomas
and I have either slightly more faith in humanity or
we just, like, see more of ourselves in him.

S2 (56:28):
Yeah, but also, you and I are big empaths.

S12 (56:30):
And Mel.

S3 (56:31):
You know what I reckon? I reckon we're going to
start a chat without Thomas.

S12 (56:35):
Hear you. I'm sorry.

S2 (56:37):
I'm the glue. I'm the buffer.

S1 (56:40):
Let's get to the. The finale, which also was like,
I kind of just came out of nowhere for me. Like,
I did not know what was going to happen here.
The restaurant's up and running. Things are working pretty well. Like,
there's like, there's some issues, you know, like one of
the one of the chefs leaves to go smoke crack
in an alley like this. There's some challenges. The mom
doesn't really want to come, but this climax, where Carmy

(57:04):
gets locked in a fridge and has a meltdown because
that is the sort of like summation of his failures
from his perspective and the way they use that to
see him have these conversations with, you know, with Syd,
with Tina, then with his girlfriend, and then ultimately the
big fight with Richie. Like, gosh, like I really felt

(57:28):
that like, I felt every emotion in that scene.

S3 (57:31):
Yeah. Total Chef's Kiss for this episode. There were a
few real standout moments. Pete and Donna, who knew Pete
would really perform such a role? That encounter outside the
restaurant where she's saying, Just tell me I don't have
to come in. And then Pete returning and crying at
the table. I thought it was just I did not
see that coming. I thought it was so nicely done

(57:51):
and such a quiet moment between these two kind of
side characters.

S13 (57:58):
I want you to go back in. Just don't tell
them you saw me, because this isn't what it. What
do you mean you can't take it? I love them
so much. I had a show in. I don't have

(58:20):
to say I'm sorry. So please, just please, just go
in and just tell me it's okay.

S2 (58:31):
Yeah, and especially because Pete has been like a real joke,
you know, they all just, like, hang shit on him.
And so, you know, it was really nice to see
how impacted he was. And again, I just think like,
you know, like the Donna character, she's so obviously fucked up,
but she gets there and she, like, she doesn't want
to ruin what she thinks is going to be like.
She knows that her very presence in the room will
taint what is like a big moment for her children.

(58:52):
And she does love them in her own weird way
as much as she is capable. Like that's her showing it.
And it's just it's just so twisted. And then ultimately,
we do get to this moment with Kami where, like,
I know we keep bringing succession into it, but like,
you know, the poison has very much dripped through both
to him and his brother, who is now dead. But
then Kami gets like trapped in this prison of his
own making because like so many times throughout the season,

(59:14):
we saw him not fix the door handle to the fridge.
That's what they call a Chekhov's gun, in case you
guys don't know.

S12 (59:21):
Don't know a lot of questions. No follow up questions.

S2 (59:23):
That was such a sitcom moment. Like I'm stuck in
the fridge, but it was like fucking amazing. And just
to watch him unravel and begin to question like this
season has been so much framed in like, what is
my purpose? But Kami is the one that has had
to like, almost step away from his, like, God given
talent to become a real human and a real person.
And he's found that in Claire and he's starting to
see there's more to life than just like fixating on

(59:44):
his obsession. And he just like, you know, like, admonishes
himself for letting himself get distracted by life, right?

S14 (59:51):
What the fuck was I thinking? Like, I was going
to be in a relationship. I'm a fucking. I'm a
fucking psycho. That's why. That's why I'm good at what
I do. That's how I operate. I am the best
because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit. Right?
I could. I could focus and I could concentrate. And
I had a routine and I had fucking cell reception and.

(01:00:31):
I don't need to provide amusement or enjoyment.

S15 (01:00:37):
I don't need to receive any amusement or enjoyment. I'm
completely fine with that. Because no amount of good is
worth how terrible this feels.

S2 (01:00:55):
And, you know, he gives this big speech like I
feel like every season in the band now we're going
to get like one carmy monologue. Like last season it
was in like AA or whatever. He gives this big
speech about like, you know, I don't I was the
best because I didn't have any of this fucking bullshit.
I don't need to provide a comedy monologue.

S3 (01:01:09):
Here we.

S12 (01:01:09):
Go. I don't need.

S2 (01:01:10):
To receive any amusement or joy. And I'm completely fine
with that because no amount is worth no amount of
good is worth how terrible this feels. And then lo
and behold, we see they pan out and Claire is
standing on the other side. And I just thought all
of it again was like, So if you put your
glasses on, you could see it as like, Oh, this
is so predictable and stuff and I know you liked it.
So I'm But like it was, it was amazing and

(01:01:32):
like it fucking I felt that awe. And I think
a lot of people watching were like, Oh, that. And
then it ends with this very, very intense fight between
Richie and Kami where they kind of say all the
things they haven't been saying to each other for an
entire season. And again, it had massive like Tom and
Shiv on the balcony vibes.

S1 (01:01:50):
Yeah, Yeah. And I think one of the bravest things
this show does is it makes Kami out to be
probably one of the worst characters, 100% show. And I
think that's a big swing for a show that is
kind of named after him is about him and makes
us sort of empathize with him because Jim White is
so compelling and so good and we all love his arms.
He looks great and white and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

(01:02:11):
But his comments to Claire like he's in the wrong,
like Claire has done nothing but support him and help him.
And he can't quite handle how to do both. And Richie,
like we've just seen Richie go on this journey where
he's listened to calm. He's done what Calm wanted. He
stepped up for calm. He's running the restaurant and calm
can't crack it. And still he's like sort of mad

(01:02:33):
at a Richie from a year ago. Rather than acknowledging
the growth that Richie has gone on and the growth
that he hasn't gone on is so obvious there.

S3 (01:02:40):
Yeah, that kind of annoyed me about me during this
season was that he makes his emotional problems, everyone else's
emotional problems like they've all got stuff going on as
we've seen in the show. They've all got their own
journeys to complete. But Carmy is just like dumping his
feelings on everyone all the time, like on Sydney, whether
they're under the table, on his sister, on Richie. And
it's like, man, as the Stoics would say, stand up

(01:03:02):
straight yourself.

S1 (01:03:03):
Yeah, that's such a good point. That's such a good point.
Not I don't really understand what stoicism is, but my
friend Bridget Delaney wrote a great book on stoicism. If
you're listening. Bridget, I'm sorry, I haven't read it.

S3 (01:03:13):
Check it out. Don't worry. I gave you the I
gave you the highlights.

S1 (01:03:16):
But. But yeah, the show really did go out of
its way this season to show everyone dealing with stuff
like Syd was dealing with, like expectations of a dad
having to build this restaurant when Carmy went AWOL, like
sugar is pregnant and dealing with the finances and dealing
with the uncle and all of this stuff. Marcus's mom
is sick and maybe dead at the end of this

(01:03:38):
season right from those text messages.

S2 (01:03:39):
Plus, Marcus like shot his shot at Sydney and it
did not go well.

S1 (01:03:44):
Yeah. And Richie, as we've said a couple of times,
like dealing with like his his relationship with his family
and and his own internal issues, like they're all dealing
with stuff and they all stepped up and delivered and Tommy,
what is Tommy's issue? He is trying to make a
restaurant and also date this girl who seems really nice
and like is to the extent that she's a manic
pixie dream girl, like she's this male fantasy of a

(01:04:05):
perfect woman and he can't handle that. And also do
his fucking job. Like, step up, bro.

S3 (01:04:10):
I know. I really like the line. Actually, I was
saying it this morning to Thomas. That maybe will become
my mantra. That was like, if you want to be
the man, be the man. And that's what I thought
about for Carmy. I'm like, If you really want to
do this, stop. Like, stop complaining about everything and just
step up to the plate. Sir.

S2 (01:04:24):
Yeah, but I think like, that's why you see, like
in the big fight between Richie and Carmy and like, what? Like,
triggers carmy so much is that Richie says. Are you okay, Donna?

S14 (01:04:35):
Richie. What? What the fuck did you just say to
that girl? Carmen? Shut the fuck up and get me
the fuck out of here, please.

S16 (01:04:40):
Oh, yeah. I'll get you the fuck out of there, Donna.

S14 (01:04:42):
The fuck did you just say? I. What the fuck
did you just say? Nothing. Richie, what the.

S2 (01:04:49):
Fuck did you say? Yeah. Basically says, like, calls him
his mother's name, and he's like, you're being like your mother. Like,
you're doing. You're, like, self-sabotaging. Like she does. And there's
obviously this thing in the Bizarro Family where they don't
believe that. They're like, I don't know, worthy of love
or something. And so, like, they just fucking self-sabotage and like,
it happened to the mom. We saw it in Fish's
like obviously his older brother kills himself and like, Carmy

(01:05:11):
is very much like, I think obviously spent his life
running away from them. He like went to Copenhagen. He
doesn't want to be near it and probably because he
can see himself in it. And then, you know, like,
lo and behold, when when Richie says that it really, like,
triggers him because he knows it's a bit true. But yeah,
I do think like, you know, the season ends with
Claire kind of walking off presumably, you know, is that
is that her leaving him? Maybe. I do think like

(01:05:33):
in the real world that you could probably fix that
relationship with like one really quick phone call.

S1 (01:05:36):
That's another thing. It's like, oh, I just overheard a conversation,
I'm walking away. It's like, Hey, man, like you're probably
been trapped in this fridge for like, I was probably
a bit stressed, like, let's have a chat.

S2 (01:05:44):
Yeah, like he would get out of the fridge, drive
to the house and be like, Obviously I was like,
fucking weird in there, but like, I love you as well.

S12 (01:05:49):
And like. But also.

S3 (01:05:50):
She's a doctor and I was worried about his condition.
I thought maybe I was like, maybe he's going to
get hypothermia and Dr. Claire is going to come and
help out. But that.

S12 (01:05:58):
Obviously that.

S1 (01:05:58):
Would have been that would have been like a more
like an Er, you know, sort of Grey's Anatomy.

S2 (01:06:03):
I am curious to get your guys thoughts on, on
where like it very obviously sets up a third season
because essentially you know the launch of the bear to
family and friends was a success. Despite Carmy being in
the fridge, they kind of pulled it off without him,
which is great. And we leave all the characters in
a different position. But Carmy seeing is, is like essentially
he's become too soft and too much of a real

(01:06:26):
like person. And if he wants to be the best
and be who he was, then he needs to just
like shut that off. So my prediction for season three
is we will cut to the first episode. The bear
will have like two Michelin stars and Carmy will be
a full fucking Joel McHale and everyone will be miserable.

S1 (01:06:42):
That's interesting. I sort of have the opposite theory that
I think will go to the third season and it'll
be shut down like it will have been, like something
will have gone wrong. And it's like, What the hell
do we do now? But I think either way, they're
pretty dramatic. Like we're not expecting this next season to
start with. It's all going well. Like, I wonder what
the next issue could be.

S3 (01:06:59):
No, I think that.

S12 (01:07:01):
There's like no season three canceled. Well, there.

S1 (01:07:03):
Might not be. The strike means it's probably not going
to happen for a while.

S3 (01:07:07):
That's true. I think Carmy will be out out of
the restaurant. Everyone else will be holding it up. He'll
be down on his luck drinking, taking drugs, being self destructive.
And then I think the restaurant will all gather together
to cook carmy the meal of love that will remind
him why he loves food, why he loves his family
and friends, and will bring him back to the fold.

S1 (01:07:28):
I know you're saying that. You're saying that with contempt.
I can tell in terms of what you what you
think this show is. That's that.

S12 (01:07:34):
Right? It's very possible.

S2 (01:07:36):
I mean, this won't surprise anyone. I seriously think I'm
right because like they kind of set it up and
that that is the perfect like trajectory because he will
go and do what he does so well and he
will make the restaurant what they all want it to be,
but really like they'll all be fucking miserable. Whereas right
now it's a good restaurant. It seems to be a
good restaurant and they're all pretty happy, but he needs
it to be the fucking best and it'll be like

(01:07:56):
it'll get the hats and he'll do. He'll just like
take over. It'll be like the fucking commie show, but
everyone will hate it. And then it's like, What's the
point of being here and what is purpose, guys?

S3 (01:08:05):
Well, I'm going to bring you that stove book.

S12 (01:08:07):
On.

S2 (01:08:08):
Chekhov that wants.

S1 (01:08:09):
I think we're actually at risk of breaking the strike
rules by writing the show. So we probably should, like,
put a pin in it. Guys, thanks for thanks for
the conversation. Thanks for letting me emote slightly about the
Logies and thanks for all of your thoughts on the bill.
It was really fun to watch that one with. You
got a lot of really nice comments from listeners saying
I really reminded me of when you guys are doing

(01:08:31):
succession things, it is really hard to find a show
that everyone is watching and wants to talk about and
also has enough in there to unpack. If anyone's watching
stuff that you think we should be getting into, please
let us know. There's a little bit of a quiet
period coming up for TV, but we'll find things to
talk about. Thomas Smell, Thanks again.

S3 (01:08:49):
Thank you. We're going to get you a gold glow.

S2 (01:08:51):
You let it rip.

S1 (01:08:56):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week.