The rise and fall of Brat culture. Plus, 'Entourage' turns 20

Are you having a Brat summer?

Presidential candidate Kamala Harris is, according to singer Charli XCX. In this episode, Mel, Thomas and Os consider whether the Brat movement has reached its peak, and what happens when pop culture and presidential elections collide.

Plus, 20 years ago Vince, E, Ari, Turtle and Drama took us behind the scenes of Hollywood's elite when Entourage hit our screens. The hosts reflect on the show and its legacy - while it captured the popular imagination then, it's since copped strong criticism.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey there, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop,
a weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and
The Age, where we dive into the latest in the
world of pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Thomas
Mitchell and Mel Cambry. What's up gang? Good evening.

S2 (00:22):
Wherever you're listening to this podcast or it might be morning.

S1 (00:26):
Thomas is trying to be funny because I said to him, look,
it's nice that you say good morning when we talk.
I appreciate that, but podcasts are listened to at all
hours of the day. We don't want to shatter the illusion.
You know that this only exists in one particular moment
in time.

S2 (00:41):
Yes, well, I'm on board now, so wherever or whenever
you might be listening to this, I hope you are good.
It's very.

S1 (00:47):
Sweet. Thank you. Mel, how are you doing?

S3 (00:49):
I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I feel like I.
I'm glad we've got to a stage where I can
mitigate all responsibility for having to answer you. When you say,
how are you? Like, it's just now assumed that Thomas
will take on that that role.

S1 (01:04):
You did have one more responsibility.

S2 (01:06):
How were you, Osman? Oh.

S1 (01:08):
Not fulfilled. Oh, thanks for asking. Thanks for asking, guys. Um, well,
you know, I've. I've started boxing lessons this week. Um,
I wanted to add a little bit of cardio to
my workout regime. And boxing seems like a really fun
way to do it, and it was really fun. But
I will say my arms are quite sore and tired now. Um, Thomas,
I know that you box regularly. Do you have any

(01:29):
tips or tricks for me?

S2 (01:31):
Uh, look, I think firstly, I think it's a really
good thing for you. Um, just to work out some
of your issues. You know, just like if you're going
to be hitting the bag, that's the bag to hit. Um,
I think no, I think it's really good. If we're going.

S1 (01:46):
To be hitting something, it's better or a punching bag
than you.

S2 (01:48):
Correct? Uh, no. Look, just keep your guard up, man. Um,
you know, Tyson said that everyone has a plan until
they get punched in the face. Um, he also said
a bunch of other dumb shit, but I think it's
really good. I'm here. And, Mel, you've done some boxercise before.

S3 (02:02):
I haven't actually fought a story. I went to a
muay Thai boxing class with the person I was profiling,
and I found it. The most difficult thing was like,
I couldn't remember the, what do you call it, the
like when you do a whole like, like a whole
series of punches and kicks. I like, really struggled to
remember like a mortal Kombat, like when you're doing an uppercut, fly, kick.

(02:25):
I could not remember the order. I found that very difficult.
Do you find that challenging, Osman?

S1 (02:29):
Well, I'm really just starting. So it was like, you know,
left jab, left jab, right jab, left hook. Like I
could remember that.

S2 (02:34):
What's your kind of killer punch, though?

S1 (02:37):
Uh, I got, like, a right hook. Yeah, yeah.

S2 (02:39):
Yeah, I can see.

S3 (02:40):
It. Is this in a class? Right? This isn't. No, I.

S1 (02:42):
Just do it one on one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah.
Just Osman.

S2 (02:45):
Versus demons.

S1 (02:46):
I mean, he's not wrong. He's not wrong on that front. Um, well,
I was going to say first things first, but we've
spent a bit of time talking about my boxing. So,
second topic of today's podcast. Um, we need to acknowledge
Thomas's psychic abilities twice in a row. Now, he is
predicted the state of origin result and the final score.
Kind of. Can't believe it, I was doubtful what a

(03:07):
time to be alive. The Blues did take it home
within the margin you predicted, Thomas.

S2 (03:11):
Yeah, I mean, also doubtful is completely underselling what your
response was. Both of you. You were mocking me. Um. and,
you know, just like saying how outrageous it was that
let alone I would suggest the Blues would win, that
they would win in Queensland and by that scoreline and yeah,
once again, it's a big win for the Thomas heads
out there. Uh and and also we all win because

(03:33):
New South Wales won. Uh that's true. We all.

S1 (03:36):
Did win. We all did.

S2 (03:36):
Sweet. It was when Bradman best crossed over for that
try Osman.

S1 (03:40):
Oh my God it was incredible. Our text messages were
just ecstatic, full of pure joy.

S3 (03:46):
And this was the first time I've kind of watched
The State of Origin, all three of them. What I
found most shocking, and that was mainly off the back
of Thomas's encouragement. Um, what I found most shocking was
that the sin bin is a metaphorical concept, that they
just go and sit on the bench. I found that,
what do you think?

S1 (04:01):
That they were put in a literal bin?

S3 (04:04):
Not in a literal bin, but I thought they went
somewhere for like time out by themselves. Like they didn't
just get to go and sit with their mates and, like,
get Gatorade and relax. They should go and sit somewhere
where they are made to feel ashamed.

S2 (04:15):
They do typically go into the dressing room and then
right before they come back on, I think they come
back to the bench.

S3 (04:19):
Okay. Right.

S2 (04:20):
So they are they are in a bin. I think you're.

S1 (04:21):
Confused because there was a player, um, was Angus Crichton,
who was who just preemptively sat down before he was
sin binned. And then he had to get up and
then was sent to the sin bin.

S3 (04:30):
Yeah, okay. Maybe that threw me. There you go. I'm
still learning.

S2 (04:33):
Yeah. But yeah, I mean, I think it was a
great night for everyone and, um, probably, you know, winning
State of Origin in Queensland, one of the great male fantasies.

S1 (04:45):
Speaking of great male fantasies, can you guys believe it's
been 20 years since entourage debuted on HBO? God damn,
we are old folks. That is crazy. Uh, the show,
I think, shaped way more men in way more ways
than they will ever willingly admit that perhaps Thomas and
I will admit that on the podcast a little bit later, uh,

(05:05):
we're going to discuss why it's the greatest show of
all time, while Mel mercilessly mocks us for being retrograde Neanderthals. Uh,
we're also going to discuss the extraordinary dominance of Charli
Xcx's brat. Not just the music, but the vibe, the aesthetic,
the memes, the brat summer the Northern Hemisphere has had
over the past couple of months, and talk about how

(05:26):
maybe brat Summer has reached a peak and potential decline
with the political embrace of the meme, in particularly Kamala
Harris aligning herself so closely with this kind of funny,
weird countercultural brand. And speaking of Harris, we talked a
little bit about US politics last week. It's very funny
for us as a pop culture podcast to weigh in,

(05:47):
and I am keen to get your guys takes on,
you know, who Kamala should pick as her vice president.
But there's been a real convergence of pop culture and politics.
This is a very American thing. Obviously, they're very into
their celebs running for President Reagan, Schwarzenegger as governor. Trump himself,
I guess, is like a cultural celebrity turned politician. Uh,

(06:08):
I would say maybe now we're living in a period
where there's a little bit too much pop culture in politics.
George Clooney wrote that opinion piece for The New York
Times that, I guess, kind of started the avalanche of
people saying Biden should step down. I don't know if
you guys caught Aaron Sorkin's op ed on the weekend,
he wrote. So Aaron Sorkin, obviously creator of The West Wing,

(06:30):
Sports Night, The Newsroom, he wrote The Social Network, Molly's Game,
very well known writer, and a lot of people love
to make fun of The West Wing for how kind
of cringe it was in its politics at the time,
and this kind of small l liberal fantasy. He wrote
the most Aaron Sorkin opinion piece of all time, where
he was like, Joe Biden should step down and I
know who should be the nominee. It should be Mitt Romney,

(06:52):
the Republican, and people like Aaron Sorkin. That is crazy.
And then the timing was hilarious because two hours later,
Biden stepped down and Kamala Harris was the nominee, and
Sorkin tweeted something like, oh, no, no. Just for the record,
I agree with Kamala. This is really good. This is
really good. Um, real galaxy brain stuff for him. But
seeing the list of celebrities kind of come out and
say things. Spike Lee was very quick to, to throw

(07:13):
his support. I think he called Kamala like de Gaulle
or something like that. Uh, good on you, spike. Uh,
Robert De Niro said thank you to Joe Biden for
stepping down. One man in his 80s, you know, applauding
another man in his 80s, um, hopefully doesn't mean that
De Niro will also step down from his acting prime.
And then, on the other hand, Trump has Hulk Hogan

(07:34):
and Kid Rock. Did you guys watch any of those
performances from the RNC? What did you make of it?

S2 (07:39):
Ah, I mean, like as a WWE fan, when I
in my younger years, I was like, oh, Hulk Hogan's
still alive. Barely. But yeah, I mean, it is very funny. Like,
I guess just like seeing kid Rock and Hulk Hogan. Like,
if you were to find two celebs that were like
so aligned with Trumpland, I suppose that makes sense. But

(07:59):
I think generally, like on both sides, people have this real,
I think, like pushback against seeing any time they feel
that a celebrity is like, you know, kind of trying
to push them in a particular way or, you know,
just even involve with the political movement. I think our,
you know, like suspicion of celebrity kind of activism is
so high right now that, like, I don't know how
much weight. I mean, you're right in that the Clooney piece,

(08:21):
I think did he's such a big, important Democrat. He's
like almost like his relationship to the Democrats is less
of like a celebrity thing. Like he's properly involved.

S1 (08:29):
Yes. Yeah. He's like a major donor and yeah, like
that that held weight.

S2 (08:33):
But I think generally we're wary of celebrity activism now
on both sides of the corridor.

S3 (08:38):
Yeah, I think that's probably true. And they've become like
obviously increasingly visible players in global politics because of their
fanbases and their media reach and their access to their
own platforms. Um, it's probably it's an interesting question for democracy,
really not to make it too serious because there.

S1 (08:54):
Make it serious, man. We're talking about the presidential election.
This is serious stuff.

S3 (08:57):
That's true because there are power comes from their ability
to kind of attract attention, but they have no political expertise.
So I mean, that is kind of, you know, whether
that translates to electoral influence and policy is an interesting question.
I don't actually think it does. Same with you, Thomas. Like,
I don't know if it's it changes, um, the, the
poll results. And we have seen in the past high

(09:17):
profile endorsements, really high profile endorsements that have made no difference.
I think maybe it has the biggest impact on the
celebrity's public image. Like that's actually where the biggest change is.

S2 (09:28):
Because it's funny already, like with the like Kamala thing.
It's like so many people I've seen tweeting like, Where's Taylor?
Like kind of waiting for the Taylor drop to be like,
you know, and maybe she is one of the few
people that still can, like move the needle. Like if
Taylor Swift came out in support of Kamala. Really hardcore,
you know, like telling people to vote, telling people to
sign up, would that maybe, you know, change things?

S1 (09:52):
I actually agree with you that that is maybe the
one person that could I largely agree with what you
guys have said. I think in an American political context,
someone reminded me of this yesterday. We'll talk more about
the Charlie Kamala thing. And I was like, well, does
that really matter if someone like Taylor Swift or Charli
XCX endorses Kamala Harris? Like how many, you know, 22
year olds listening to brat are like, well, I was

(10:13):
going to vote for Trump, but now Charli has come out,
I might switch. But then they reminded me that the
US has their, uh, you know, non-compulsory voting system. And
there's a lot of young people who feel very cynical
about both sides and might just stay home, but someone
like Taylor Swift saying, hey guys, if you want to
protect abortion rights or whatever, you should get organized and
register and go vote. That could shift the dial in

(10:36):
a way that probably like De Niro and Spike Lee
even probably are not going to.

S3 (10:41):
Yeah, I think that's, um, I think that's very true,
because I think the fact that they don't have to
compulsorily vote is really where the power of these celebrities lies,
particularly for the for the Democrats.

S1 (10:51):
Before we move on from this one, I just there's
a regular segment we're going to have now is like
what JD Vance is up to. We had a lot
of fun talking about him last week. This is Trump's, uh,
pick for the vice presidency. Um, the author that Mel loves, uh,
really funny, interesting people found his, like, blogspot from 2011
or maybe even earlier where he, he talks about, like,

(11:11):
his life traveling from Ohio to Yale and, you know,
his kind of suburban malaise. Uh, Henry gave us a
little bit of a review of Garden State, the Zach
Braff film. So he's talking about being in the airport,
and he says, I couldn't watch Garden State because New
Jersey's landscape is so much like Ohio's. The music is
so relevant to my life right now. And the story

(11:34):
of a guy returning home, realizing that home isn't what
it used to be, etc. made me want to tear up.
I mean, that's Garden State in a nutshell, right? It really.

S2 (11:42):
Is. I never really I can't believe he was like
a shins guy.

S1 (11:46):
Lebanese blonde by Thievery Corp, just, you know, makes him weep.
Still to this day.

S3 (11:50):
It's so strange how he's managed to make something quite
banal sound so poignant.

S1 (11:55):
You can't get off this hype train at all, can you, man?
You're just like, damn.

S3 (11:59):
I want more. I mean, also, I'd love to imagine
what was on your blogspot of 2011.

S1 (12:04):
Well, honestly, when I saw that, I was like, shit,
is that still up?

S2 (12:07):
Yeah, I probably need to do like a bit of did.

S3 (12:09):
You really blog?

S2 (12:10):
I mean, it's best not to talk about it. Uh,
is there a JD Vance review of The Legend of
Bagger Vance? Because that I think.

S1 (12:19):
That's really funny. That's really funny. Um, yeah. My blog
when I was a teenager was about New South Wales
state politics. That's how cool.

S2 (12:25):
Oh my God.

S1 (12:26):
Wow. It was called Macquarie Street.

S2 (12:28):
It's set in a dune world.

S4 (12:30):
Yeah. interpreted through fiction.

S1 (12:33):
It wasn't fan fiction, maybe. I don't know what's lamer
that I was writing serious news stories when I was 15,
or writing fan fiction about, um, Premier Nathan Rees. I
was not doing that for the record. Um, that's a throwback. Uh,
let's talk about brat. We discussed the album at length
when it was released on June 7th. It has become
Charli's biggest selling album yet, but I think what's become

(12:55):
even bigger is the, I guess vibe, the meme, the
aura around brat. How do you describe it? Well, according
to Charlie herself, brat is a little messy, likes to party,
and maybe says some dumb things sometime. Someone who feels herself,
but then also maybe has a breakdown, but kind of
like parties through it. They're very honest, very blunt, a

(13:17):
little bit volatile. Mel, in your group chats with girls. Women?
Is that how you guys are describing yourselves these days?
Is this is this the mood, the vibe amongst cool
millennial Gen Z women? This kind of brat aura?

S3 (13:33):
I was hoping you might describe me as urbane again. That's, uh.
I was really hoping that might make a reappearance. Uh, look,
on a on one level, I find on the surface level,
if I don't think about it too much, I find
brat like the movement very fun. I think it's, uh,
it's a fun movement on the socials, and I think it's, uh,
it's people are having a lot of fun with it.

(13:54):
If I really think about it, I guess, I mean,
all kind of labels like that are kind of reductive
and performative. Um, but I think the more interesting thing
is like, what is brat reacting against? Like, why is
brat having a moment? And I guess it's kind of
moving against that clean girl aesthetic, which is dominated TikTok
and also fashion. The idea of the put together girl

(14:16):
with the slick backed bun and the neutral nails and
the the clothes that don't kind of stand out. Like
it's obviously a very direct reaction against that. And it's
obviously a reaction against a feminism that Gen Z sees
as too serious and and stifling. So I think that
part of it is interesting. And I mean, ultimately it's
about owning elements of oneself that have traditionally been seen

(14:40):
as troubling for women, like women who like to party,
who are messy. So I guess it's good that you're like,
that level is being reclaimed. But I mean, ultimately, I
do kind of wonder if brat is Manic Pixie for
a 21st century. It's manic pixie with a bit of edge. Really.
I don't think anything's new. Um, so I'm cautious of
it and interested. And I believe I can be a brat.

S1 (15:03):
That's an interesting take. I, Thomas, loath as I am
to ask you this question in particular, but, um, one
one thing that stood out to me about that kind
of Charli description of it, and it certainly seems to like,
resonate with the way it's being deployed by people I
know on social media. There's the kind of like, you know,
just like, you know, we're girls and we're a bit wacky.
We like to party. We're also a little bit dumb.

(15:24):
That does seem to be a vibe at the moment.
And to Mel's point, it does also seem to be
a bit of a reaction to this kind of broader
idea of like, I don't want to get, I don't
want to get too ideological about this stuff, but like
this mode of feminism that we seem to be in
reflected through culture, of that kind of like girlboss work hard,

(15:45):
you can make it all work. Get what you want.
There's a there's a way out of like the trap
of kind of capitalism and the sociological factors that apply
and everyone kind of realizing that that is all a
bit bullshit and like, what's the point of working our
way up to the top and playing by the rules?
It's all stupid. Anyway. Let's just have a bit of
dumb fun. The kind of return of the tradwife thing.

(16:06):
The explosion of Red scare, which is obviously referenced in
Charlie's album all seems to be part of this too.

S2 (16:13):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's like we're definitely living
in a time when young people, capital P are feeling
like a certain.

S3 (16:22):
Was it a capital P?

S2 (16:24):
I don't know. Capital. Capital P a feeling like a
certain level of hopelessness. And I think that has manifested
itself in this like for, you know, young millennial women,
it's kind of like the way you get ahead of like,
the future that's been dictated to you anyway. And like,
you know, I that makes so much sense to me. Like,
it's it's a kind of grim outlook out there for

(16:44):
so many people like, you know, both here and overseas and,
and in all kind of aspects of life. And so
like this makes sense that it's popping up again. Like
I do agree, this is just a repetition of, you know,
like stuff we've seen before, like, you know, like the
whole hot mess thing that was like being in the
kind of late, which was.

S3 (16:58):
Also a form of manic pixie, I think, like a development.

S2 (17:01):
Like I remember there's a whole Hot Mess episode of
The Mindy Project with, like, you know, that character was
completely brat. Uh, and same with Fleabag, even, like, she
was a hot mess, which is a brat, like, you know,
it's all just an evolution of the same thing. But
I think it's particularly like big right now. And I do,
you know, as you know, I go on Instagram and like,
see these trends. But like you do see lots of

(17:23):
like I've got lots of my friends who are like
super smart, successful women. And then they'll be posting stuff
like kind of like tongue in cheek about like how
messed up and like fucked up their lives are and
like lol. And it's kind of like it's true. Like,
but they're just kind of getting ahead of the curve,
I think, and kind of claiming it to own what's
really going on. But like, they're not really those people.

S1 (17:43):
Yeah. It's not it's not cool right now to be
successful and to be playing by the rules. It's cooler
to embrace a kind of nihilism or irony and just
lean into that. Even if you know you work in
finance 14 hours a day, that's not what you want
to project. But then I also think, like there is
a genuine sense of that nihilism that you're describing in
terms of just how a lot of people our generation
and younger feel about where the world is going.

S3 (18:05):
Yeah, I think that's very true. And I think you
could also maybe read the the hedonism that is embodied in,
in the brat kind of idea, not just as nihilism,
but hedonism as reacting against expectations of women, all of them.
So if you kind of take brat as its base
level as that, then that is a positive thing. If
it's about reacting against, you know, what's expected of you,

(18:27):
traditional stereotypes, how society wants you to behave, then if
that's the net level of it, then I guess that's
a good thing. But, um, yeah, always wary of these things.
But I do think.

S2 (18:36):
It is funny that like the split in, I would
say like, you know, we're all in our like mid
30s the I think like the people that I see
around me like in my, you know, like echo chamber,
the women especially who are like adopting it, it definitely
is in more of like a like kind of performative
like this is a funny trend. Like, I could I'm
happy to like jump on this for a bit. Whereas like,

(18:56):
I think the I mean, the origins of the actual
brat movement that, you know, perhaps Charlie was referring to
and maybe like, you know, people, women in their kind
of like, early 20s are really talking about is a
more genuine feeling of like, well, this is all pretty fucked,
like whatever. Whereas I think, like the older you get,
it's like you kind of you can clock the vibe
and you can clock the trend and you're like, oh,

(19:16):
this is quite a fun one for me to jump on.
But like, also I have a, you know, $800,000 mortgage
and I get paid $200,000 a year. And like, I'm,
you know, planning my second child and shit.

S3 (19:26):
Yeah. Like totally. If you're going to be kind of
partying all the time and, um, not caring about things,
the early 20s is the time to do that.

S2 (19:35):
Yeah, exactly.

S1 (19:36):
There is a visual element to this as well. It's
defined by like the brat cover up, the lime green,
that sort of simple font. And Charlie's aesthetic on this
very like early 2000 club rat kind of energy. It
is kind of everywhere. And to your point, I think
a lot of this is being passing this through what
women I know are posting on Instagram. And it's just like,

(19:57):
anytime there's anything green people on holiday, they're like, you know,
I'm in Copenhagen right now. Brat. London. Uh, and that
has been I mean, it's kind of fun. It's just
nice that there's another universal ish meme that everyone kind
of understands and has jumped on. Um, pretty harmless, pretty cool.
But then it starts to bleed into politics. Everything fun

(20:17):
and good and organic ultimately gets eaten up by big
machines in some capacity. Uh, so Kamala Harris, uh, we
didn't say this explicitly. She's, you know, the presumptive Democratic
nominee for the presidency. In case people haven't been following
that stuff super closely, she has a tendency to say
slightly odd things. You guys across the coconut tree thing? Yeah, yeah,

(20:40):
it's really funny clip.

S5 (20:42):
My mother used to she would give us a hard
time sometimes and she would say to us, I don't
know what's wrong with you young people. You think you
just fell out of a coconut tree? You exist in
the context of all in which you live and what
came before you. So all of this opponents of.

S1 (21:04):
Harris have made all these videos mashing up, you know,
like slightly wacky things that she said and trying to
expose her as this, you know, quote unquote mad woman. Uh,
but then fans of Harris have like, kind of reclaimed
that and remixed those videos using tracks from brat, adding
kind of like lime green colors to it and being like,
Camila is Camila's brat, man, this is it. Just a

(21:25):
bit messy. She's a bit dumb. She's going for it.
She's handed out, she's at the club. This is how
it works.

S4 (21:30):
Um.

S1 (21:31):
A couple of days ago, Charli herself tweeted after, like,
Camila became the presumptive nominee. Camilla is brat. Harry's team, uh,
is using the brat font as their banner image on
social media. So they are like really like loving this alignment.
And these two forces, this kind of like club energy

(21:52):
from London to Washington DC have bizarrely merged together. Uh, and,
you know, you could say that like, this is the
peak of brat. You could argue that perhaps this is
the beginning of the end of brat. In Australia, the
Queensland Premier, Steven Miles, posted a TikTok where he was
at the, uh, workshop where they were building new buses for.

(22:13):
For Brisbane there were lime green and he was like, nah,
buses are so bright. I feel like when the Queensland
Premier's posting stuff, it's like done and dusted. The camera
thing I think is a little bit more interesting. I'm
keen to talk to you guys about whether or not
you think this is the beginning of the end of brat,
now that it's been so embraced by like, the Democratic machine?
Or is it brat evolving into another level of cultural dominance?

S2 (22:37):
I mean, I fear it's the beginning of the end.
Like after they retweeted the brat thing, my father in law,
who is and he won't mind me saying this, a
big Trump fan, he texted to the family group and
he was like, what is this? Like, what is brat?
And then it's just a series of messages where he
was like, also, I'm hearing that potentially Biden is dead. Um,

(22:57):
that's a whole other podcast. But he's I mean, I
don't know if you guys know, but Biden is dead.
That's the hot tip.

S1 (23:03):
That's our that's our Patreon podcast. Find out. Yeah.

S2 (23:05):
That one. Um, but yeah, like, I mean, when once
brat awareness has hit, you know, the suburban 65 year
old dads in Australia, it's over.

S1 (23:16):
Unfortunately, that's where memes go to die, man.

S2 (23:18):
Exactly, exactly. Yeah. When he's screenshotting them off a Facebook
screenshot and posting them into the WhatsApp thread, then the
meme is dead. But no. Yeah, I think I think,
you know, like good on them for doing it. And
also it was actually perfect for their campaign because like,
you know, she's coming in like kind of behind the
eight ball. This is of all the great I mean
to use another set of origin phrase of all the
great hospital passes, Biden has absolutely centering. And, you know,

(23:41):
like Gordon Taylor is bearing down on her. But I
feel like that gave her a bit of momentum like that.
This has given her a bit of a like, you know,
the campaign, a kickstart. There's like something to rally behind. Um,
people are, you know, like think it's really funny, but
I just don't know if that if it's kind of
the beginning of the end for brat Summer.

S3 (23:56):
Yeah. I reckon it's definitely the beginning of the end.
I would have thought, like, you know, these social media
trends hit their peak and then come down the other side.
So I would have seen that coming in the next
few months. I think this is probably hastened it. Um,
particularly because the people who were enjoying this trend were
much younger, the people appropriating it are much older. So
I think they will start to it will start to
get used less. I think it will go through its

(24:17):
period of being ironically used now, like it was genuinely used.
Now we're in irony stage, and then we'll look back
on this in a few years and be like, well,
that was that brief lived brat summer. But I think
the use of the politicians using it is interesting, because
I do think it then, even though I think brat
is political, it doesn't ostensibly seem to be. Whereas I
think when politicians use it, it takes it into the dome,

(24:40):
it takes it into the domain of the political, which
then makes it less kind of universal. Um, and then,
you know, claiming to be brat or describing things as
brat then becomes a political action. So then it's less used.
So yes, I think, um, I think it's the beginning
of the end. But I'm glad you're wearing green today, Thomas.

S2 (24:58):
Yes, that's true actually.

S1 (25:00):
Who do you think, uh, benefits more from this alignment
between Harris and Bratt? Like, you know, Thomas, you said
it gives her this, like, boost, a bit of energy.
I agree with that. Generally speaking, I'd be like, the
celebrity loses out, but Charlie is someone who's finally, like,
really done well in the US market. After plugging away
for a while, I'd be interesting to watch the charts

(25:21):
and be like, if this does enter the American kind
of conversation for a week or two, when a whole
bunch of people who are like, oh, what's this about?
Listen to her albums, potentially. This is a big boost
for her as well. You know, in in swing states
like Michigan.

S3 (25:35):
And yeah, I think that's probably true. And maybe they're
trying to get the Barack Obama when he first went
into office, had that whole kind of coolness behind him,
like he was a cool candidate. And so maybe they're
trying to replicate that in this way as well.

S1 (25:50):
I think the other part of this is that, like,
even though there's a chance, uh, that Charlie gets some,
you know, extra streams out of it, there's also a
risk in, like, I wouldn't say that like Charlie or Brad,
heads necessarily overlap neatly with, like, Democratic vice presidential candidates
who used to be cops and prosecutors and, you know, have,
you know, conservative foreign policy. So there's there's also like

(26:12):
I've seen Charli XCX fans, this is the risk for
celebs in this space be like, oh, this is so lame. Like,
this is not what I want you to be using. Like,
if you're if you're like a 24 year old girl
and you've been pumping out brat content in between, like
really hectic, radical political slides, and then all of a
sudden charli's like Camila is brat, you'd be feeling pretty.

S4 (26:31):
Pissed off with the stock you.

S1 (26:33):
Bought a month or so ago, right?

S2 (26:35):
Yeah. That's true. Yeah, I guess it's kind of I mean,
I like it's probably one of those things that we're
obviously sitting here discussing it. She probably just like knowing
Charlie as I do. Um, she probably just like, fucking
fired it off and was like, this is funny.

S1 (26:48):
This is funny. Totally. And now here's a bunch of
people in their 30s debating it.

S2 (26:51):
Yeah, yeah. And me being like, I think what it is. No.
But like, yeah, that's probably like the reality of what happened. Um,
and now we just kind of like watch it all
play out. But yeah, I would say just like slightly
off topic, but I do think this whole thing has
made me a little bit excited just for the general
meme environment leading up to the election, because it has
been amazing already. Not off topic.

S1 (27:12):
We have. We're veering into like Pod Save America territory
for the next, you know, six months. This is what
we're doing now.

S2 (27:18):
And one of my favorite ones, uh, was just as
soon as this all happened. Have you seen the one, like,
going around like the the headshot of Connor Roy, and
it's like he's tanned. He's ready. I was like, man, amazing.
This was the guy we should have had leading. Um, like,
the internet is just going to do it. So this
has been obviously a very, you know, insane and turbulent, um,
kind of like few months in the lead up to

(27:38):
the election with everything that's going on, like between Biden
pulling out and the assassination, and the internet is just
like fucking doing what it does.

S1 (27:44):
Best, man. You said a few months, it's been like
three weeks since Donald Trump was shot in the head,
and Joe Biden's pulled out of the race. Crazy times.

S2 (27:52):
Tenacious D with an unsuspecting victim of this. Like.

S3 (27:55):
How wild is it that the Trump news it's, like,
certainly says something about the world we live in in
the news cycle that Trump, our former president and presidential candidate,
nearly being assassinated is just like not around on news
websites that much.

S4 (28:09):
Can I say.

S1 (28:09):
Something controversial and don't take this as an endorsement? But like, honestly,
Trump is brat. Oh.

S2 (28:17):
He probably is a bit more brat than Kamala.

S4 (28:19):
He's been about.

S1 (28:20):
His kind of weird manic energy and just like, you know,
just he keeps, you know, we talk about the Hannibal
Lecter thing he's talked about. He keeps bringing up Hannibal
Lecter in speeches, and he keeps describing him as the late,
great Hannibal Lecter. Like he thinks he's a real person
who is both good and dead when he is not real. Famously,
not a good guy. Serial killer and a murderer. And

(28:41):
in canon, not dead. It's one of the most perplexing
cultural overlaps with politics I've seen.

S2 (28:47):
He also has, like the messy hair. Like, he's like
a bit of a club rat. And he's just been
at fabric or something, been doing for 24 hours, and he, like,
wakes up and then he's a.

S3 (28:56):
Bit disheveled and makeup isn't right. Yeah.

S2 (28:58):
Like, there would be some fucking brat parties at Mar
a Lago.

S3 (29:01):
Oh, man, who's gonna write that piece?

S4 (29:03):
Yeah.

S1 (29:04):
But I've said it. I've gone out on a limb.
I'm going to get assassinated.

S2 (29:07):
I thought what you were going to say is that, like,
at this point, I almost wondered, obviously, Trump, you know,
assassination has was like very sad. We don't want that happening. And,
you know, it's it's kind of done wonders for his
like resurgence is like if Biden was to pass away
from Covid does that Trump a near assassination. Like where
do we what's the what's like what is the hierarchy of?

S1 (29:29):
I think the sad thing is we're just fully talking
about politics now. I think like the Biden thing is over, man.
It's like it's Kamala now. And I think if Biden died,
I don't people be like, that's sad. I think people
would move on kind of quickly and just be like,
you know.

S4 (29:43):
Had a good run. It's kind of like.

S3 (29:44):
When someone's grandparent dies, but they're really old and they've
been really sick.

S2 (29:48):
Well, he wasn't taken too soon.

S4 (29:49):
Yeah. Yeah, it.

S1 (29:50):
Was like the average life expectancy in America is like 78.
He's 82 or something. Like, it's kind of the most
least surprising thing that could happen. Um, yeah. How do
we eject from this conversation?

S4 (30:04):
Um.

S1 (30:04):
All right.

S2 (30:05):
Let me allow me. Uh, yes. Well, look, it's all
very crazy. Um, but allow me to blow you away
with something crazier. Obviously, Trump is preparing for his second
tilt as the Republican nominee in 2004. He was preparing
for his very first season as host of The Apprentice.
In some ways, the beginning of his kind of rise
to power. That show kind of like blasted him into

(30:27):
wider culture. And then he obviously found a career in politics.
But you know what also happened in 2004? Osman.

S1 (30:35):
What was a big year for Premiere Television. It was
when a show about four guys from New York who
moved to LA to make it big first premiered. It's
been 20 years since entourage was released. People say Sopranos
changed television. Men? No, it was older men. Men were
killing it on HBO in that year, like women had

(30:55):
sex in the city. We had Sopranos, The Wire, entourage, like,
Take me Back, man. No wonder people voting for Trump like,
make fucking HBO great again. It's crazy.

S4 (31:05):
I know.

S3 (31:05):
It's why you guys keep calling it the golden age
of television. I keep telling you, it wasn't.

S4 (31:10):
The.

S2 (31:11):
Golden balls of television.

S1 (31:13):
It was, and remains, I think, a pretty divisive show
in terms of whether you're an entourage head or you
really hate it. It has a lot of fans, and
I think both for the kind of fantasy elements of
just watching a bunch of rich guys have fun in L.A. uh,
and also, you know, like it's a satire on Hollywood
and movies and the whole, you know, cult of celebrity

(31:33):
in that kind of peak 2000 era as well, but
has faced a lot of very fair criticism for the sexism,
homophobia and racism that is imbued, I guess, in the
DNA of the show itself. Uh, before we kind of
unpack this show and talk about like, why it was
such a phenomenon, its legacy, what worked, what didn't, why
it is so divisive. I want to ask you guys

(31:55):
about your relationship to it. Mel, first up, what is
your history with entourage?

S3 (32:02):
Well, I've been lucky. I've been able to go the
last 20 years without watching it. Um, but I actually,
I kind of think of it, you know, how in
Barbie there's that really great montage where men are playing
Matchbox 20 push, and they're talking about The Godfather. I
would put entourage, like, you could have subbed entourage into
that and it would have worked. But in saying that

(32:23):
a lot of smart, sensible, sensitive men in my life
have enjoyed entourage. And so for me that is interesting, um,
and worth my consideration. So I have gone back in
preparation for this pod, and I watched the first kind
of five episodes, and then I watched some scattered episodes
that have had a lot of, um, a lot of

(32:44):
discussion about them or a kind of pinch pinch hitter episodes.
So obviously I feel like I'm not going to be
able to fully understand and appreciate the character arcs that
these characters definitely don't go on. But, um, yeah, I'm
excited to talk more about it, and maybe to bring
a perspective of someone watching it for the first time
in this context versus I imagine you guys were hot

(33:05):
into it when you were when you were in your youth.

S1 (33:08):
Thomas, what do you reckon? Were you hot into it
in your youth? What's your what's your relationship with this show?

S2 (33:13):
Uh, I had all the entourage DVDs. Yeah. I mean, look, man, like,
in the least surprising news of all time for anyone
that listens to this podcast. I mean, you and I
were both. We couldn't have been more bang in the demo. Really? Like,
it came out when I was like, what, 1415? Like,
you know, there was no there was no 15 year
old version of me that escaped entourage. Um, and and

(33:34):
the same thing with all my friends, like, you know,
it was almost like probably one of the like I
loved Sopranos and stuff, but that was it felt like a,
you know, it's a different show for me. Like, I
loved it. I probably didn't fully understand it. Whereas entourage
was like there for me to really, like, take in. Um, yeah.
And it's funny, like, everyone's relationship, I think, with the
show has changed a lot. Um, in, in the 20

(33:57):
years since it premiered, especially because the show finished in 2011.
But then the movie came out in 2015, and the movie,
I think, was a good way for lots of people
who grew up with the show, like me and you
probably Osmond, to like to realize that this show had like,
was a little bit crazy and probably had some big
problems because it kind of the movie like.

S1 (34:17):
Passed its expiry date by then.

S2 (34:18):
Exactly. Yeah. And then we kind of cut forward another
ten years to now and it's 20 years. And you know,
like obviously the legacy is a funny thing. These anniversaries
like you're forced to like reflect on what did the
show mean and stuff. But like yeah, I find myself
in conversations like not wanting to defend entourage because I'm
fully aware of like all of its downfalls. But I
do think there are certain parts of it that have

(34:39):
become like it was. 2004 was a fucking weird time.
It was a it was a dumb show written by
a guy who was basically writing about his life experience. Like,
what did we expect it to be?

S1 (35:00):
My experience is is pretty similar to to yours. I
think the only thing I'd add is that every time
I do a rewatch and I do one every couple
of years, I did one last year. I'm sort of
surprised by like, and maybe because my memories and expectations
of its politics and stuff are so low, I'm kind
of surprised by the quality of the writing and, and
some of the acting and some of the storylines and. Yeah, look, look,

(35:24):
I think a lot of people, you know, a lot
of people talk about the misogyny inherent in the show
and it's like fair to say that there are very
few women characters who have anything in the show other
than just like they're hot models that the guys want
to have sex with. They're like, obviously a few women
characters that are a bit more fleshed, a bit more interesting,
but there's so many episodes where like that stuff actually
is not really part of the show. I think a
lot of people haven't seen the show, think it's like

(35:45):
every episode it's like which smoking hot perfect ten model
Will Vince and the gang hang out with? And that
does happen. I'm not trying to pretend that there isn't
an element of that there, but a lot of it
is like an increasingly, especially the first half of the show,
the first four seasons and seasons two, three, four, where
it's about, you know, Vince trying to get in median
and these stories about Hollywood or whatever the the kind

(36:07):
of sexism of the show fades a little bit into
the background and you're like, oh, there's a reason why
this show was interesting, compelling. It wasn't just softcore pornography.
I think the bits that really stand out to me
are like the, the homophobia and and racism particularly directed
from Ari Gold to his assistant, Lloyd. I mean, Ari
Gold is one of the funniest characters. He's also a

(36:28):
bad person. So he says this stuff. It's not necessarily
the show endorsing homophobia and racism, but he's never really
subject to backlash for it, you know? And then it
does happen a bit. And you do get these these
moments where he's challenged, but it always comes back to, like,
Lloyd ultimately loves him, even though he is one of
the worst people to him in the world. So that

(36:48):
is my attempt to try to like put not not
not defend the politics of the show, but to say
that there are there's a lot of it that goes
beyond those kinds of issues and makes it something interesting
to still watch now and interesting to still talk about now.

S3 (37:03):
Yeah, I agree. And I think like, yeah, it's very
easy to be like it was a silly show. It
was the kind of Emily in Paris of its day.
It was something you could watch and just take on
surface level. Like it's very easy to say that. But
the thing is, that show was so immensely popular and so, um,
had such wide reach that it is worthy to consider

(37:23):
what the fantasy was that people were so interested in. Like,
I'm not saying. And in this discussion, like, I don't
think the show is pretending to be anything other than
what it is. But I think the discussion point is,
why did so many people connect with that idea? And
what does that say about us collectively?

S1 (37:41):
Definitely. It's a really good point. I mean, like very quickly,
for anyone who's totally unfamiliar with it's like loosely based
on Mark Wahlberg's real life, his crew moving to LA
when he was in the 90s, navigating Hollywood, working their
way up run ins him and his crew have with
studio execs, with other celebrities, with other actors. Every episode
is kind of standalone. There are some season wide arcs about,
you know, movies and things that they're trying to get into.

(38:03):
A lot of celebrities make cameos. James Cameron famously like,
is trying to make a, uh, superhero movie called Aquaman
at a time when everyone was like, are superhero movies
good luck man. And now they're so dominant. There's even
like a movie called Ferrari that's in the film. There's
a Gatsby film. All these movies happen before their equivalents
in real life. And honestly, for me, when I was

(38:25):
thinking about this conversation, I was like, did I really
fall in love with, like, cinema and Hollywood and the
art of like, you know, making these things and caring
about producers and studios through entourage. And I reckon I
probably did. I reckon I learnt a lot of the
language and the stories and the details of this stuff.
Watching the show, that made it seem really interesting and
dynamic and weird and actually wanting to learn more about it.

(38:47):
I don't know if either of you guys can can
relate to that.

S3 (38:50):
Yeah, I that for me that is by far the
best part of the show is the Hollywood element of it,
and it's the insider stuff. One of the episodes I watched,
which was really good, was everyone stressing about whether the
film would have a bigger opening day than was it Spider-Man,
I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that it was all
of that stuff. It was the role of the agents,
the film choices, the pressure from producers, the the publicists,

(39:12):
the kind of mechanics of the industry that I found
most interesting and was by far the best part of
the show and the part that I think has stood
the test of time, only because a lot of it
is strangely prescient of films that did get made of
things that have happened in the industry.

S2 (39:26):
Yeah, I think like, I mean, I think keeping in
mind this is 2004, like before we fully were like
in the stranglehold of reality TV. And like Doug Ellin,
the creator, tells this story so regularly about how, like
so many people, when the show started, thought it was
a there were real people like thought it was a
I thought he was like, this was a documentary. Um,
because like, you know, we have a genuine appetite for

(39:48):
that stuff now more than ever. Like, you know, if entourage,
if entourage was to be made in 2024, it would
probably just be a fly on the wall following. Like,
I don't know, Timothée Chalamet as he visits a bunch
of boulangeries or whatever, but like, I think that's how.

S3 (40:02):
Far we've come.

S2 (40:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think it would be so boring. I'd
much rather watch the Vincent Chase one. Um, but like,
I think, you know, the voyeuristic element was a huge
part of what made it so good. You know, people
love to peek behind the curtain of anything but especially Hollywood, this,
you know, huge system that we're all like, you know,
know so much about. And, you know, we watch the
movies and stuff. But to figure out, like, what does

(40:24):
a movie star do, like on a Tuesday afternoon like
that shit is interesting. And that's why I do think, like,
you know, the the kind of revisionist history of entourage
and the very, like, fair criticisms of it, you know, the,
the fact that it does have like all it's like,
you know, there's lots of misogyny. It is really racist. Like,
but the, the criticism that has become so loud that
it's like reduced the rest of the show to like, oh,

(40:46):
it didn't really offer anything. Whereas like, I don't think
that is true.

S1 (40:49):
Yeah. And I think really smart in terms of that reality. Uh,
like what's real, what's drama. The show leaned into that
like it had real actors like Mandy Moore play fictionalized
versions of themselves. And so you really felt like you
were getting a peek into how it works. Fuck knows
if that's actually the case. I mean, in that vein, also,
there was a character who was a very wealthy and

(41:10):
powerful film producer who went to Sundance and threatened people
a lot and was very aggressive and quite large, and
his name was Harvey Weingard in the show, and it
was obviously a reference to Harvey Weinstein. It was one
of the first pop culture kind of statements that this
guy exists and he's a monster Decade before the kind
of revelations in the in the Times and the MeToo movement.

(41:34):
So the show was very knowing about a lot of
this stuff. On the kind of the other side. A
lot of the reasons why I like the show was
great party scenes, great soundtrack, a lot of stuff about
dudes just like hanging out. And I think when you're
a teenager, you're like, is this what being a man is?
And I think this is this is one of the
bits of the show that I can't really reconcile. And
it's not really the show's fault that a bunch of

(41:55):
people our age, Thomas More teenagers, watched it and were like, well,
you know, this this feels more, uh, aspirational, aspirational to
me than like, The Wire, The Sopranos. Um, my dream
is to just get enough money and, like, smoke weed
with my friends, go to basketball games, get front row,
you know, seats and just hang out that that was
what I thought peak being a dude was.

S3 (42:17):
Yeah. And this is I was saying this the other day, like,
I think everyone or dudes watch that show and thought
they wanted to be Vince when all of them were
being turtle at the time, like, that's who they were.
And Vince was aspirational. I mean, I don't you're kind
of very gracefully sidestepping the element of how these men
treat women as being also kind of potentially aspirational. You know,

(42:40):
the show presenting that as that's what men are like. Um,
I mean, I think that argument and you do see
it a lot in defense of this, that the show
is about male friendship is like wrong and kind of silly. Like,
I think that's a silly argument or like it's an
argument that doesn't take into account what that male friendship
is like. It's about I was thinking of, you know,

(43:02):
Leo's pussy posse. Like, we'd never say that. That was
male friendship. Like, that's if you really think about what
bonds these men. It's money, power and women. That's their currency.
That's what the friendship and the status in the group
is based on. That is the codified behavior that creates
their friendship.

S1 (43:19):
Power, baby.

S4 (43:19):
Yeah. What's the issue?

S3 (43:20):
That's it. Like. And yeah, you can have issues about that.
But I don't know, like if you can make the
case that the show says anything deeper about friendship other
than what I've just said, that in that.

S1 (43:28):
No, look, I agree with you. I don't think it
actually does. And even when I was writing my notes
on this, I was like, oh, it's about friendship. And
I thought about it and I'm like, what does that
have to say about it? But here's the thing, right?
I'm keen on your thoughts on this, Thomas. You're right, Mel,
that it doesn't go beyond that. But what there weren't
really a lot of shows that just portrayed what it
means to be a guy. Like, you're having issues with

(43:49):
your girlfriend and you talk to your friends about it,
you're having issues with your job, and you talk to
your friends about it. They didn't talk about it particularly well.
It wasn't like deep insight into the nature of, like
how to navigate relationships and your career. Really. Like not
a lot of TV shows were like men were talking
about stuff in the mid 2000. I was just trying
to say it's more more relatable and accurate issues than

(44:11):
like Tony Soprano talking to Uncle June about the Rico act,
you know?

S2 (44:18):
Yeah. I mean, like, I kind of I kind of agree.
I mean, like, I don't I think it, you know,
of course that was how it was framed as a
show about male friendship. And I do think, like a
lot of the people around the show have done a
lot of, like, hard work in the, you know, time
since it finished and they've kind of been reading the
room on what people think of the show and they've been,
you know, trying to be like, no, it was always

(44:38):
about male friendship. Like, I appreciate all that. I do
think that, like, I kind of agree, like, you know,
not to play a game of comparisons, but like sex
and the city is the obvious comparison in that it was.
So it finished right before entourage started, I think. And
that's obviously, you know, often entourage was called like the
male version of sex and the city. But like, you know,
there that version of friendship, like, Carrie is famously the

(45:00):
worst friend in the world. Like, I think there are.
I mean, you know, you've only seen a few episodes,
but there is a lot in this show that like
that bonds them. Aside from like getting fucked up and
having sex and stuff like you have like, you know,
Johnny constantly kind of being the the fact that he's
just like the punch line for him is that he
can't quite achieve anything, but like, they really, like deal

(45:23):
with shit like that. Like, I do think that the
standard may be low for like TV shows exploring or
really like interrogating male friendship? I think this show tried
to do it.

S3 (45:32):
Nah, I don't think so.

S4 (45:33):
No, I think so.

S1 (45:34):
I mean like is it is is is Carrie telling
her friends she would never have sex with the bisexual man?
You know better or worse than EA helping Vin navigate
like a professional crisis.

S4 (45:44):
I think it's the.

S3 (45:45):
Level of engagement. Like, I guess there are two things. Like,
if we're talking about what this show says about friendships,
obviously the friendships in sex and the city are more
intensely examined, like those dynamics are way more complicated. And
when they're talking about sex, it's brought to the table
for discussion. Whereas I think in this show, it's like
the throwaway line of virgins are too much responsibility. Or

(46:05):
have you ever fucked a girl on it, period. Like,
that's not a kind of interesting or developed discussion. And
it doesn't have to be. And they're there questions. But like,
I guess what I'm saying is like, I don't it's
not attempting to be men seriously unpacking relations with women.
It's not intending to be that. And I don't think
it does do that. Um, so yeah, I don't really

(46:27):
buy the argument that it's like an insightful way of discussing.

S1 (46:31):
No, I think we're actually probably more in agreement on
this one than in disagreement, because I also don't think
it is like, you know, the holy grail of like,
good conversation. I'm just trying to say that there was
so few of those things happening in television that it
actually is a bit like, oh, wow, men are talking
about like any like, the bar is so low here
that just men talking about anything to do with their lives,
their families, sex existed. And I'm like, I'm not trying

(46:55):
to say that like, men are underrepresented or were underrepresented
in television, but it is kind of stark to think
that what other dramas that existed before entourage of groups
of men existing together and talking about things that aren't teenage, like,
you know, Nano 2.0 or the OC, that sort of

(47:15):
stuff that was very like in high school stuff for
people in that kind of like 20s. I don't know
what that show was. And certainly by the time Thomas
and I were teenagers, I don't know what that show
was that was on.

S3 (47:27):
Yeah, I think that's fair. And I mean, sex and
the city made an impact in the same way, in
the sense that it was an avenue to show women
on TV talking about their issues. I mean, I do.
I know you keep saying you couldn't relate to Sopranos,
but I do think that Mr. Soprano is a far
more relatable male than anyone in this show. No respect.
Like he struggles with his role in the family.

S4 (47:50):
And the older I get, the more I'm like, yeah,
I fucking get this shit. But like.

S3 (47:53):
It's a far more relatable presentation of what it is
to be human. This is fantasy and that's fine. Like,
I think we just need to be like, it is fantasy.
It is a projection. It is. It's the cinema of desire.
If we want to get Freudian on it like it's just.

S2 (48:07):
Fantasy, it is fantasy. But the dynamic between those four
guys like for better or worse, definitely like because essentially
they're like, they've all got like Arrested Development, they're basically
high schoolers. The dynamic between to.

S1 (48:17):
Tell you, Mel, when four guys get together, that's what they.

S4 (48:20):
Talk about.

S2 (48:20):
It's very similar to how like people interact, like in
high school, like how and like, you know, there's always
someone trying to be the big dog. Everyone's taking the
piss out of each other like that. That's not like like,
I'm sorry to say, my group of friends was a
lot more like that than, like, fucking Sal and Tony
and Christopher sitting at fucking Satriale's.

S3 (48:36):
Though you did eat a lot of ham.

S4 (48:38):
Yeah. I mean.

S2 (48:38):
Yeah, we had the cured meats, but that was where
I stopped.

S1 (48:41):
There's a problem with, um, problem with modern society is that, uh,
a lot of women of a certain age grow up
watching sex in the city and thought that's what they
should emulate. A lot of men grew up watching entourage.
That's what they should emulate. Everyone in politics and media
watched The fucking West Wing and thought that's what they
should emulate. We're all kind of like breaking the world
because we were raised by kind of weird and kind

(49:03):
of fucked up HBO shows.

S3 (49:05):
Yeah, I think that's, uh, that's probably true. And that's
why I always think that, like, it's good to discuss
these shows and their meaning, even if it's not like
what the show is intending to do and like. It's
not about the expectation of the show, but it did
influence so many people. And the type of men and
women we have today are a result of pop culture,
and it's why culture is so important. Yeah, that's.

S1 (49:23):
Why it's so interesting, because we can all acknowledge the
limits as to how good or bad it was. But
the reality was it did influence human beings in terms
of their thinking and approach to stuff. Thomas, you spoke
to Doug Ellin, the creator of the show. What did
you learn from him about entourage during the time and
its legacy?

S2 (49:42):
Um, I think he has a complicated relationship with the legacy. Uh, he,
you know, especially like, you know, the 20th anniversary was
just last week. Um, HBO, like, maybe put up a
single Instagram post, um, to celebrate it. And, you know, like,
it's fair to say that had this been the 20th

(50:02):
anniversary of sex and the city, it would have been
a much bigger deal. Um, so he is very much,
I would say, like a bit defensive about what's happened
to the show. Um, especially like his relationship with HBO
has disintegrated a lot, and he thinks they basically have
tried to distance themselves. Um, and I do think, you know,
in some ways I try to understand where he was
coming from. Like, I think he really is just like

(50:24):
it was 2004, you know, like, this was what I knew. I,
you know, this was my life. I spoke to Mark Wahlberg.
We wrote a fun show like that was it. And
now he's like, kind of frantically trying to figure out
what's happened to his show. And, you know, like, not
that we need to feel bad for Doug Ellin. At
the same time, he is doing a lot of like,
you know, overtime trying to be like, nah, it was

(50:45):
all 100%. All of it was satire.

S4 (50:48):
Yeah. And it's like.

S2 (50:49):
You know, look, man.

S1 (50:49):
I it was a comment on how like, Ari was
a racist or whatever.

S2 (50:53):
Yes. And I was like, look, man, I love the show,
you know, at the time and stuff. And I still
enjoy watching it, but like, you know, all of them
fucking all these girls all the time is not like a,
you know, biting satire on, you know, the power of
fame and being a famous actor. Like, sometimes you were
just doing it because it was like fun shit to
film and you knew that your audience would absolutely lap
it up.

S3 (51:10):
Yeah. And I kind of get his like, I get.
I imagine no creator ever wants to make something that
is so dated. And not only a career not only
makes something that is so of its time, but is
so now retrospectively often shorthand for like a red flag. Um, yeah.
So I kind of get why he is on the
defensive about it.

S4 (51:30):
I mean.

S1 (51:30):
In 20 years now, when people talk about the anniversary
of this podcast will be claiming, oh, no, no, that
was all satire. Don't worry about it, guys.

S3 (51:37):
I already used that excuse.

S4 (51:38):
Yes.

S2 (51:39):
So I thought that was interesting. Um, and then basically
he just kind of like, does a lot of podcasts
now plays a lot of pickleball.

S3 (51:45):
Um, did he ever make anything again?

S2 (51:47):
Well, no. So he's kind of, uh, like, no is
the answer. He's basically got a pilot, um, featuring Charlie
and Martin Sheen, uh, and a bunch of the guys
from entourage, but it hasn't been able to get finance yet. So, yeah,
he kind of, I guess he just he kind of
talks about his experiences in the industry in this new
podcast he has. But yeah, he definitely has been impacted,

(52:09):
I think, a lot by the the response to entourage
probably beginning, I think, with the movie which he directed
and wrote and which did not do very well. And
then kind of I guess since then the show has
increasingly been, you know, viewed poorly and seems to have
aged poorly. And I think that's left an imprint on him,
as would anyone. Uh, but yeah, it's an interesting chat.

S1 (52:27):
It's interesting how few shows like it have existed. The
only show I could think of that really fell right
into this space is Ballers. Do you guys watch this? Yeah.

S4 (52:36):
I love the show.

S3 (52:37):
I love Dwayne Johnson.

S4 (52:38):
Yeah.

S1 (52:39):
Dwayne Johnson, uh, John David Washington, it's executive produced by
Mark Wahlberg. So some of that entourage DNA is there.
And it's a similar thing. Right. It's about sports managers
and and uh, the NFL a lot of party scenes,
a lot of music, a little bit more updated like
this came out in 2015. So it doesn't feel kind
of as cringe. And, you know, a lot of discussion
about like, race because this is about a lot of

(53:00):
players who are black. It was pretty interesting. It wasn't
like that. Great. I don't think it has like a
huge legacy or anything like that. But um, as I
was going to say this out loud, I realized how
silly it sounds, but a real noticeable, like lack of
drama comedy shows about dudes hanging out together.

S2 (53:20):
Thank you for that. Thank you for being a thank
you for being brave enough to say it.

S4 (53:24):
Well, it feels.

S1 (53:25):
Weird to say that because, like, again, I don't think like,
you know, my point isn't like, this is why everyone's
voting for Trump. Because men don't have shows anymore. But
in this space of like, beyond kind of like action,
you know, and maybe like outright comedy or whatever, like
the space of the dramedy where there is some ongoing
kind of relationships that shift and change, and it's the

(53:48):
dynamics of a group of men, or even if it's
a group of men interacting with like other women. There's
not that many shows like that.

S3 (53:55):
I don't think there are any shows like purely. Well,
not that I can think of off the top of
my head. I'm sure there are, and people will let
us know, but I think it's more because the real
world has women in it. So women are more than just,
I guess, the people they have sex with. Like so
I think there are shows that focus on male.

S4 (54:12):
You can have a.

S1 (54:13):
Show, you can have a show like girls, which focuses
on men. That doesn't just reduce women to like objects
of sex.

S3 (54:19):
So you want the men to be the central characters.

S4 (54:22):
Like, I want.

S1 (54:22):
Boys, I want the show boys. Yeah.

S4 (54:26):
But aren't.

S3 (54:27):
They okay? Yeah.

S4 (54:28):
Look.

S3 (54:29):
I mean, the bear, everything revolves around.

S1 (54:33):
The bear is probably. You know what? The bear is
probably a good shot. The bear is a show where
you see a lot of men and, like, it's actually
a really good, um, a really good example of this,
where it's broad, there's a whole bunch of characters from
all sorts of different backgrounds and whatever. But like you
do see a group of men who relate to each
other and to other people in a dramatic and funny way.

S4 (54:51):
That's a really good point.

S3 (54:52):
Presumed innocent.

S4 (54:53):
That doesn't count. Don't know if that counts.

S3 (54:56):
A man and a group of men. Yeah, there's one woman.

S4 (54:59):
A lot of.

S1 (55:00):
Them, I feel like, are couched in very genre ways. Like.
Like Breaking Bad and The Sopranos. We've talked about it
like all those things come up, but they kind of
smuggled in. Maybe that's because programmers know that men wouldn't watch,
like a very earnest, like, entourage. But it's woke, right?
I don't know what the demographic is for that. So
they're like, let's have shows like Ozark and Breaking Bad
that are very gritty, justified, that sort of stuff. And

(55:22):
then in that we'll have some really strong plotlines about
men relating to each other. Honestly, this probably is why
people are voting for Donald Trump. I hate to break.

S4 (55:31):
It to you guys.

S3 (55:31):
Well, I was reading today a really interesting story about
how rare the mail reader is. 80% of book buyers
in the UK and the US are women, and they
the piece was linking it to kind of the Andrew
Tate ification of society, where men are, you know, the
kind of gains attitude. Um, I mean, I hadn't really

(55:52):
kind of linked that before and thought that was interesting
to I mean, I don't know if that's relevant to
what we're talking about, but sums of how men engaged
with culture.

S2 (56:01):
A co-worker of ours yesterday did say that this was
a show. Entourage was a show for Andrew Tates, which
I thought was particularly offensive.

S3 (56:08):
That is interesting.

S4 (56:09):
That is really.

S1 (56:09):
Offensive. All right, on to our, uh, final regular segment,
Impress Your Friends, where we share something we watched, read,
listen to, or otherwise consumed in culture in the past week. Uh,
mine's a bit cheeky. Um, I am very excited about
industry season three dropping in a couple of weeks. I
think it's August 12th. I've been doing a rewatch of
seasons one and two. I really like the show. It's fun.

(56:31):
It's like called a slightly dumber mix of succession and euphoria. Like,
that's fair enough. It's set in the high powered world
of finance in London. A bunch of young people get
their cadetships, I guess, traineeships there. They try and like
do deals and they have a lot of sex and
they do a lot of drugs. It's kind of soapy.
It's kind of silly. There's a lot of finance jargon.

(56:53):
I have no idea how accurate it is. I don't
really care. It's pretty cool. Um, if you're not across
it at all, get onto it. It's on, uh, binge.
It's an HBO show. It's on binge and get hype
in time for season three. Mel, what have you got
for us?

S3 (57:07):
I have a very good book. It's called Kairos, and
it makes me sad that not more people are reading. Um,
it won the International Booker Prize. It's by Jenny Erpenbeck
and translated by Michael Hofmann. It's about this love affair
between a student and a married man. There's kind of
30 years between them. They meet on a bus in
East Berlin and their whole relationship, which is really destructive

(57:28):
and complicated relationship, um, kind of intellectually and emotionally charged. Um,
and it's set against the backdrop of the collapse of
kind of East Germany and the end of the the
Communist dream. It's this really beautiful book. It's hard to explain.
It's about power, art, culture. Um, and it's quite a
bleak outlook on life. Um, but it is, uh, it's

(57:51):
a book that's kind of it moved me in ways
that not much contemporary literature does. Um, so yeah, I
think it's well worth adding to the list, and I
think you would both really like it.

S1 (58:01):
I love hearing you talk about books, Mel. It's very
insightful and you're really passionate about it, and I get
very excited every time you mention them. So thank you
for that.

S3 (58:09):
Thank you. As you can. Um, I'll, I'll, I'll send
a copy up to you.

S4 (58:13):
I think you'd have.

S1 (58:13):
To buy me a book. Mel, I'm your boss. It's okay.

S4 (58:16):
Yeah.

S1 (58:16):
Uh, Thomas, what.

S4 (58:18):
Have you got?

S2 (58:18):
Just to stay on trend, my recommendation is set in
the world of blood sport. Um, now, this is one
that's actually kind of flown under the radar. It is
a TV series. It's those about to die. Uh, are
you guys across this?

S4 (58:29):
Oh, the Roman Empire? Yes. Okay.

S1 (58:32):
Anthony Hopkins is the guy.

S2 (58:33):
Yeah, man. This is this has got big, um, Oz energy. Yeah. So. Yeah.

S1 (58:38):
Tell us about it.

S2 (58:39):
It's all ten episodes. So firstly, straight up it's a
binge it on the weekend vibe. All ten episodes available
on Prime now. And basically like, you know, obviously we're
in a bit of a kind of like gladiator mood
right now with Gladiator two coming. And, you know, obviously
every so often we get these shows like, remember, HBO
did their big Money Like Rome show years ago that
they only gave.

S1 (58:58):
Yeah, I loved Roman.

S2 (58:59):
Two seasons two, which was a fucking crime against TV.
Probably the worst decision they made since cancelling entourage. But
Those about to die is basically like it's set in
the world of the gladiator games and, you know, kind
of in a similar way. It's like a succession meets
Rome meets like almost like a ballers. Like we get
the politics of the sport set against the backdrop of

(59:21):
the Roman Empire. Basically, Anthony Hopkins plays the Emperor, who's
like very much on his last legs. He's like slowly widening.
And yet as he's kind of like dying wish he
wants to reinvigorate these, you know, the gladiator games. And
when I first got told about this, I was like, oh,
this sounds like it has all the elements of being
a stinker. Like, you know, big celebrity attached. That probably
doesn't give a fuck about the project. Just another Roman

(59:43):
show like this will just come and go that no
one will ever talk about it. Watch a couple of episodes.
It is so well done. They've spent a lot of
money on it. Um, like, the set dressing is incredible.
Huge cast, but like, everyone gets equal billing and there's
great character arcs. I really think this is the type
of show that you can like. You put on one
and then like before you know it, you've got bed

(01:00:03):
sores because you've been there for ten hours.

S1 (01:00:05):
Uh, great chats to him. Great episode, a lot of fun.
Can't wait to find out what JD Vance thinks about
Deadpool versus Wolverine. We'll talk about that next week. Uh.
Take care. See you.

S4 (01:00:15):
Then. Stay bright.

S2 (01:00:16):
All right, cue the entourage theme song.

UU (01:00:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, My mind had been in limbo. In
the memory you overflow. Wanna be your super hero? Or
even if I tumble, fall. I'm okay.

S1 (01:00:39):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Che Huang.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
with a friend. I'm Usman Farooqui. See you next week!