'Under the Bridge', 'Presumed Innocent' and our obsession with crime shows

Mel, Thomas and Meg discuss why we're so bloodthirsty for crime series and documentaries, and the genre's prestige glow-up. We discuss the ethics of the genre, why its attracting big name celebrities, and some of our favourite shows from recent years.

Plus, David Sedaris' New Yorker essay and Candice Carty-Williams' Queenie makes the jump to the screen.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Melanie Kembrey and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. Osman Farooqi is sadly on leave
just for this week, but I am joined by Thomas
Mitchell and Meg Watson. Thomas, you've been off jet setting
again from the Northern Territory to New York. What have

(00:29):
some of the highlights been from the Big Apple?

S2 (00:31):
Yes, it makes it sound like I went from the
Northern Territory to New York, but.

S1 (00:34):
I pretty much did. You've not worked since.

S2 (00:36):
Yeah, that's actually quite true. Yes, it was very nice.
I went for a week for work for something TBC,
but yeah, actually it was, it was very fun. It's
obviously a great place to walk around in. Um, I
really thought I would see someone famous because every time
I've previously been, I've seen at least one famous person. Um,
but sadly. Have you seen. Yeah. See, like, I my

(00:59):
colleagues that I was with saw Sarah Paulson like ten
minutes after I left them. Okay, so that was about
as close as I got to, you know, a famous
person experience, but otherwise it was. It was very fun. Um.
And now I'm back.

S1 (01:11):
Eat good food.

S2 (01:11):
Yeah. Lots of pizza. Lots of bagels. Um, I really
feel like the bagel culture. It's surprising to me that
hasn't taken off here, given how much we love, like,
breakfast foods and sandwiches and stuff. And everyone over there
just eats them.

S3 (01:23):
It's taken off in Melbourne. We've got a lot of
specialty shops which are hardcore.

S2 (01:27):
And do people like, get around it?

S3 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like like lines out the door every weekend.

S2 (01:32):
Really? Yeah. That's weird.

S3 (01:33):
I'm surprised Sydney doesn't have that. Yeah, that's weird, I know.

S2 (01:35):
And then I was kind of thinking, like, you always
got to be thinking about potential businesses. I was like,
maybe that can be a thing that I do in
the future. Like, I.

S1 (01:43):
Can open a bagel.

S2 (01:44):
Business. Well, like, you know, there's a gap in the market,
a gap with a hole in the middle, and I'm
going to fill it.

S1 (01:48):
I don't think there is a gap. I think you've
just not had bagels before.

S2 (01:52):
No, I've had them before. But like when you you
guys have both been to New York, I'm assuming. Yes.
You know how, like, there's this cafe chain called bluestone.
It's like Australian started it. It's really popular and everyone's like, oh,
go to bluestone if you want a good coffee. And
I'm like that. You could do that same thing in reverse. Um, anyway,
this is all the stuff I thought about when I
was in New York.

S1 (02:10):
When you were working for your actual job. Meg, what
about you?

S3 (02:13):
My week has been pretty crap by comparison. I have
not been in New York. I've been sick in my house,
thanks to my twins bringing home every illness from daycare. Um,
and it's also been made worse by the fact that
I'm currently writing the story for the SMH and the
age about watching only ten play for a week, and

(02:35):
so we've been doing a whole series of them. People
have just watched iview for a week, SBS On Demand,
and I put my hand up for Tenplay, which is
like all well and good until you're stuck in your house, um,
all day with only ten play to go on. So
I've watched a lot of Taskmaster recently, and I was
so thrilled when you asked me to be on this
week's show, because I got to watch something else. Yeah.

S2 (02:55):
So how strict have you been? I've been.

S3 (02:57):
Pretty good. I've been pretty good. Um, if anything, though,
it's made me watch less TV overall because I knew
there wasn't much good stuff going. So it's maybe healthier actually.

S2 (03:06):
Is your partner like, does it hedeland fall into the
remit of this?

S3 (03:09):
Like, that's been that was a real topic of discussion. Um,
he was not stoked about the story. Um, but definitely
a few nights he was just watching other stuff and
I was, you know, cooking and not paying attention or like,
went into my room to watch a much less fun show.

S1 (03:28):
Have you had any other discoveries apart from Taskmaster, which
is very popular here? Anything else deep in the archives
of Tenplay?

S3 (03:35):
Um, I mean, it's pretty good for reality TV if
you're after reality TV, it's a decent place to be.
And that includes not just Australian series, but UK and
New Zealand, South Africa, they've got like full seasons of survivor,
of things like the Traders, which I know Aussies talked
about on the show a lot and is a really
decent show. The UK version especially is great. Um, beyond
that it is pretty bleak. There's no real scripted, um,

(03:59):
comedy or drama, which is a real hole unless you
want to watch The Secret Life of Us. Great.

S2 (04:05):
I was gonna say surely that. And, like, offspring would
be on there.

S1 (04:08):
Yep, yep.

S3 (04:10):
Yes, they have all that. Um. So. Yeah. You'll love it,
I guess.

S1 (04:13):
Yeah. Well, I'm looking forward to Thomas no doubt doing
the nine, the nine play.

S2 (04:17):
One might do that anyway. Only watch either nine now
or Stan and they just got such premium.

S1 (04:24):
Keep trying to fund your bagel business. Correct. All right. Well,
speaking about good TV shows this week we're going to
look into the art of television crime, the popularity of
the genre, the ethics and exploitations. When it's done well,
when it's done poorly. And we're going to look at
two big shows which were released recently Under the Bridge,
which is on Disney+, and Presumed Innocent, which is on

(04:47):
Apple TV, to kick us off, I feel like there
are a never ending stream of crime shows, documentaries, mini series.
Are you guys big crime heads? Meg, when you're not
watching Taskmaster, is it crime that you're hungering for?

S3 (05:02):
I don't think I would classify myself as someone who.
Is a full true crime fan or anything like that.
I'm not chasing those really gory Dockers or anything, but
it's definitely part of my diet. I think I lean
towards the kind of funnier fictional takes in the genre,
the kind of Fargo, you know, Russian Doll was great.

(05:24):
Even deadlock in the past year or so from, um,
Kate McCartney and Kate McLennan was really a really fun
comedy spin on the genre. Um, but I mean, I'm
not above it either. Uh, during lockdowns, I binged every
single episode of Law and Order SVU. Um, and if
you have any idea of the back catalogue of that show,
that is a lot, a lot of time and pretty,

(05:47):
pretty bleak viewing as well. So it's part of the mix.
But I'm not a die hard, I think. How about.

S1 (05:51):
You? I feel like there has been a real rise
of that kind of funny crime. Only murders in the
building is another one where it's less about the crime itself,
as much about the jokes that are made solving the crime. Thomas,
I know you like a bit of crime, I think.

S2 (06:05):
Yeah, actually, like, I actually am a bit of a
crime head, even though I don't classify myself that way.
But when I was, like, thinking about this, I do
often feel like now one of the first things I
go to when I'm looking for a new show, like
I'll just naturally drift towards, like the really dark crimes like.
And I do feel like in the last few years,
there's been like a kind of, like big shift in

(06:25):
the level of quality. Like, I don't know why. Maybe
this is just in my own head, but I feel
like Mare of Easttown was one that, like, really like
people got buzzed about it in a way that often
these genre shows like Don't Demand. And I think, you know,
obviously it had Kate Winslet and it was like really
dark and gritty and stuff. And like that to me
is the perfect type of crime show. And yeah, I guess,
like since then I've found myself on a drifting towards

(06:47):
more and more of those, like really, I don't know,
I do like to be like disturbed when viewing. I
think it's like a comfort thing. In a weird way.
This is the same thing I have. Like I have
a discussion with my friends all the time. Whenever I'm
like quite hungover. I like watching horror films because it's like,
maybe it's the the forced, like emotion. And so I
think it's the same kind of appeal when I go
to look for like a true crime show or just
a crime show in general.

S1 (07:08):
And many people would say that the BBC kind of
pioneered the classic crime drama with detectives that you follow
for series after series. I quite like those ones. Like
I recently discovered Shetland and watched all seven series, and
there's something so comforting in the formula of it. You
kind of put it on nice landscape shots. You know
what you're getting. It's not too surprising. It's not too

(07:30):
hard to follow. Um, Meg, do you like those kind
of classic BBC crime dramas?

S3 (07:36):
I've never got into those, really. I mean, I know
there's always a channel on TV pumping, just like non-stop
summer murder mysteries of some British description. Um, I never
got into those, but I feel like over the past
little while, there's such a deviation in how we talk
about these crime shows because like you said, there's like
these prestige offerings. There's Kate Winslet doing Mare of Easttown.

(07:59):
And then on the other hand, Netflix are just like
slapping out one every week of kind of increasingly disturbing content.
I mean, I watched that, um, Dahmer show. It was
like the show with ten names. It's like monster, Jeffrey
Dahmer Story's Jeffrey Dahmer Chronicle. But that was, um, really
off putting. And I feel like in the past few years,
I've really leaned away from anything that's actually based on

(08:24):
true stories. Um, just because there's such a hunger with
these big streaming companies, especially to juice them for all
they're worth. And, um, that made me a little tentative, actually,
for one of the shows that was coming out at
the moment, which we're going to talk about.

S1 (08:38):
Yes. And we'll get to Under the Bridge, which is
based on a real life story soon. And it's interesting
what you were saying, Meg, because the rise of the
crime drama and the true crime drama has happened parallel
also to the rise of the true crime documentary, both
on screen and when it comes to podcasts, shows like
The Staircase, which really kind of capitalized on that appetite

(09:00):
for true crime. Thomas, why do you think people love
watching crime? You hinted that for some reason you find
it quite cathartic to watch people being brutally killed on television.

S2 (09:11):
Okay, you've stitched me up there now, I think. I mean,
I do think in a way that, well, the format
is like, in a strange way, comforting because it's always like,
you know, classic story structure of like beginning, middle, end.
There's like good guys, bad guys. It's like familiar to us.
And so that is appealing in a way. But I mean,
I don't know if you've heard of a little thing
called In Cold Blood by Truman Capote. No. But like,
you know, the genre is obviously, like, really old. Um,

(09:34):
as as we know we've discussed this previously, but I
feel like crime as a genre used to be, like,
especially even in Capote's day, it was like a bit
low brow and stuff, whereas that has really shifted. And
we've been talking about like the popularity of like crime
or true crime for like years now. But I think
especially in this era of like, you know, the armchair
detective thing that we talk about so much, like there

(09:55):
is that element of like, people love to, you know,
the rise of, like, serial and making a murderer like
that thing of being involved in the story in real
time as, like a big part of, I think, the
current obsession with true crime. And then. I guess the
fact that it is like always that voyeuristic thing of like, oh,
getting to like, see the icky parts of real life is,
is appealing. Like it's just human nature. I think we

(10:17):
do like to look at that kind of car crash
effect where you like, can't look away. And I think
all of that stuff has been like, true forever. But
now in this era of streaming, it's like, you know,
they're just like constantly like, I think both of these
shows we're going to talk about today, Under the Bridge
and Presumed Innocent are based on books like, it's like
all the streamers have realized there's so much like, material
existing now that they can, you know, adapt and stuff.

(10:39):
And so it's really like it's all come together to this,
like perfect marriage of, like, all this stuff exists. We're
already kind of conditioned to be interested in it. And
now it's just like, how much can you handle? Yeah.

S1 (10:49):
And Meg, you hinted at kind of you feel a
bit of discomfort about kind of that, that the rise
of this genre and how readily we are to consume
it and make it. And, you know, when things, when
industries do see a big boom and true crime documentaries
and true crime is one of those, it's kind of
churned out so fast and people are wanting to capitalize
on the interest so much that sometimes the ethics of

(11:12):
it aren't given time to be considered. So you see
documentary makers making shows about people without really kind of
giving moral consideration to what they're doing. When did you
kind of start to feel a bit icky about some
of these crime shows, particularly the ones based on real life?

S3 (11:28):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think to pinpoint
a moment, I think something happened in 2014 that collectively
broke our brains around that first season of serial. Um,
we all became obsessed with Sarah Koenig and Adnan Saeed. And,
you know, that was the first kind of popular moment,
I think, where everyone was hitting Reddit, doing their own

(11:49):
kind of investigations into something that this professional journalist was
already looking into. And from there it kind of spiraled
out of control. Then we got, you know, the making
a murderer, we got the jinx, we got the staircase,
we got all these run ons that, you know, are
great objects in their own right and really interesting and
worthwhile investigations in many ways, but at the same time

(12:09):
spiraled into this online chaos, which I was very much
a part of. You know, I really enjoyed that as
a moment. But as the years wear on, we're past
a decade since that first came out. Now it's just tiring.
I think the idea of true crime being this participatory
sport is just, you know, there's good ways to do
it and bad, and it's an ethical quagmire all the time.

(12:31):
But I'm just tired of it, frankly. Yeah.

S1 (12:33):
And we saw it all come to a head, of course,
with baby reindeer, which was kind of the extreme of
that armchair detective. Um, but you were talking about journalists
being involved in, in these crime stories, and he.

S2 (12:45):
Was a journalist.

S1 (12:46):
Nick Cafferty, um, of course, was very involved in Cold Blood,
and it's very much a part of that story. And
in Under the Bridge, uh, as well, there's a journalist character.
So why don't we move on to talking about that one?

UU (13:01):
There's danger everywhere.

S4 (13:07):
But danger had never looked quite like this before.

S5 (13:13):
This girl, Reena Virk.

S6 (13:16):
She's been missing for three days. That night I saw something.
What happened under the bridge?

S1 (13:24):
It's an eight part mini series which is now on
Disney via Hulu, and it's about the real life murder
of 14 year old Reena Virk by a group of
teenagers in British Columbia, Canada, in 1997. It's based on
the 2005 book of the same name by journalist Rebecca Godfrey,
who in this series is played by Riley Keough, who
is also an EP on the show. She returns to

(13:46):
her home in Victoria to work on a book, but
finds herself, like Truman, part of the story. When the
body of a Indian-canadian teen, Reena, is discovered. She's played
by Ritika Gupta, and the focus turns on a group
of teenagers Josephine Bell, played by Chloe Guidry, Warren Glatkowski,
played by Javon Wanna Walton, and Kelly Ellard, played by

(14:08):
Izzy G. Lily Gladstone plays Detective Kam Benchland, who has
a complicated relationship with Rebecca. Meg, what did you make
of Under the Bridge? Did you like watching it?

S3 (14:21):
Yeah, I was pretty skeptical going in for these same reasons.
I'm not super into the true stories these days. I'm
a bit skeptical of these shows, which are always based
around a dead girl in a small town. The mystery
surrounding it. Um, but I was pleasantly surprised, I think
just because of the the depth of the story, I
suppose there was real compassion for Rena and her family,

(14:44):
and she gets a lot more screen time than most
victims do when they kind of dispersed. Of in the
opening EP. Um, her story is a really interesting one.
You know, growing up in this small Canadian town from
an Indian family, her mother is a strict Jehovah's Witness,
puts her in a pretty tough position with these, you know,
tough girls of the 90s. Um, I thought particularly the

(15:05):
dynamic of girls kind of young girl violence on young
girls is an interesting one. Usually when it's a dead
girl in a small town, it's like, which of these
12 men did it? They all have reasons. Whereas now
it's much more about like, we kind of know who
the culprits are. But why would that happen? How could
it happen? What does this particular type of violence that

(15:27):
young girls inflict on each other and why? I found
that really interesting. There's a few caveats there. I found
Riley Keoughs character a bit strange. And, you know, I've
seen three episodes at this point, and I don't fully
understand her backstory and some of her motivations, but all
in all, I'm having a good time.

S1 (15:41):
And what about you, Thomas? I know you've watched it all,
and you were you were kind of hyping this up
before it got to Australia, because it had quite a
prominent release overseas before it landed on Disney here. Yeah.
Did it live up to your expectations? Yeah, I think so.

S2 (15:53):
I actually weirdly like didn't realize it was a true
story going into it.

S1 (15:57):
Um, even though it says at the start of every
episode this is based on a true story. Yeah.

S2 (16:04):
This is like a indictment of my, like, short attention span.

S3 (16:07):
It's okay. Maybe you thought it was a Fargo situation. Exactly.

S2 (16:09):
You can never tell anymore. Uh, yeah. I think it's
like it's funny talking about these two, like, Presumed Innocent,
which obviously get onto in such close succession. I feel
like I really enjoyed this, but it probably felt more
like a show that kind of, on the surface, ticked
all the boxes of like what constitutes a good, you know,
true crime show these days. Like it had all the

(16:31):
elements in place. But I think like by the end
of it I was just a little bit like, ah,
it it's a slightly unsatisfying, I think, um, even though
it did feel like it had the framework to be
like a really good show. I thought Riley Keough was good,
and I was especially interested, I think, in Lily Gladstone,
because she's had this massive year, you know, she basically
lots of people thought she was like robbed for an Oscar.

(16:53):
It was like a breakout year. And I always find
it interesting to see, like what someone like that does next.
I thought this was like a funny project for her, like,
because I don't think you know her character. They have
an interesting relationship. Her character is good, but it was
a strange one I didn't like quite understand why she
would decide to do like this particular TV show where
she was kind of like third lead, really, like after

(17:13):
Rina and Riley, Kira's character. But yeah, I guess like
generally I had an interesting time and I do think
there were, you know, like you said, Meg, the way
that crime specifically was treated, like at first you're like,
oh God, here we go again, like a brutal murder.
But then it does kind of like delve into more
and especially that's probably my favorite part, I think, like
learning about the, you know, the three girls who, uh,
kind of in the midst of it, um, and you know,

(17:36):
that they're obviously from impoverished backgrounds and like, their friendship,
I thought was like really at times hard but interesting
to watch because, you know, like, they're really up against
it and they're really awful to each other. But then
there are like moments of tenderness. So that was really interesting.
But yeah, I think a little bit by the end
I was like, okay, it felt paint by numbers.

S1 (17:54):
Yeah. And I think as you're hinting at, there's a
lot going on in this show. There's a journalist character
that's the Riley Keefe character, there's the detective cam. They've
got a relationship going on. There's flashbacks to the past.
There are troubled youth. There's elements of race that's coming
into this to, um, I almost thought it was trying

(18:15):
to do too much and tick too many boxes. Um,
I know the directors and makers have spoken about how
they wanted to approach the crime with radical empathy, giving
it given it is based on a real story. But
I did feel that maybe it held them back from
going as into some of these dynamics as they would have,
and they kind of skimmed the surface of a lot

(18:35):
of these issues, kind of issues of socioeconomic backgrounds, issues
of race. They kind of glided along the surface. And
to me, it almost felt a bit bland, and maybe
it could have gone more in depth on some of
these things. Why don't we talk about it is set
in the 90s and the 90s. Element is actually quite
a big part of this show in particular. Um, Biggs.

S2 (18:57):
I was waiting for you. You're gonna go biggie or
you would spell it out. I knew you.

S1 (19:00):
Would look at me for this 1997 opus, Life After Death,
which is a huge part of the show. How well, Meg,
did you enjoy that setting of the 90s and how
well do you think they captured that time?

S3 (19:10):
Yeah, I mean, look, I was six and 1997, so
my perception of the moment is probably a little different
to some other people, but I think that they captured the.
You're really well, and I think that specific point in
time is a really interesting one to tell this story.
I mean, it was a time where a lot of
young girls were reclaiming power in lots of ways. I mean,

(19:32):
97 is one year after the craft came out, which,
you know, had teenage girls acting a bit witchy and
feeling like they had supernatural powers. You saw a scene
in one of the early episodes the girls are doing,
like a seance at a party. Um, you know, they
were feeling like they could have a more masculine style.
She's got the Steve Madden kind of combat boots. This

(19:53):
was the era of, like, No Doubt's just a girl. Um,
you know, 97 is the year that Spiceworld came out.
These are not Spice World girls. Um, they're much more
about Tupac and Biggie, but I think it's a really
great exploration of, you know, what power young women had
at this time and what whether that power was dispersed
equally because, as you said, the girls featured are pretty

(20:16):
disadvantaged in a lot of ways, and feeling a lot
of their anger comes from that disadvantage, whether that's socioeconomic
or racial or religious in some respects. And it really
butts heads against one another. So I felt it was
such an interesting exploration of who gets what power and why,
and how do they use it against each other. I mean,
the white girls in this little gang, the Crip, Crip

(20:39):
mafia cartel, Chelsea, they, um, they seem pretty keen on
a particular type of culture that they're weaponizing. Uh, pretty, uh,
appallingly against the black and non-white people in their group.

S1 (20:51):
Yeah, that's really well put, because part of the thing
this show does is walk a really fine line between
capturing the savagery of the crime, um, that is committed,
but also placing the perpetrators in the context of their
troubled lives. Um, do you think it did that successfully, Thomas?

S2 (21:10):
Uh, yeah, I think so. Just one second. I'm going
back to the 90s. I did.

S1 (21:13):
Think your favorite.

S2 (21:14):
Era, it was nice to see like, people smoking on screen, because.

S1 (21:20):
That was not what I thought you were gonna say.

S3 (21:21):
Wow, what a takeaway.

S1 (21:22):
But Riley here, she TV, she smokes.

S2 (21:24):
No, but, like, she smokes all the time. And then, like,
in famously in Mare of Easttown, obviously my favorite crime show,
She Vapes, which I remember was like one of the
first times I saw someone vaping, like, on screen in
like a modern crime drama. And whereas, like, there's so
much smoking in this show and I know obviously smoking
is bad, etc., etc. but it felt like it really
like placed it in the 90s when it was just
like people did it without thought rather than like a

(21:46):
fucking BlackBerry ice or whatever. She was just like, you know,
handing out cigarettes. They were like probably $5 for a packet.
So I quite enjoyed that. And so.

S3 (21:53):
Nostalgic.

S2 (21:54):
Yeah. Also the fact that there was just like, I
think you take this for granted, but no phones, like.

S1 (21:58):
Yes, you.

S2 (21:59):
Know, like Reno at one point runs to a payphone
at one point. Yeah. But like just that, you know,
obviously we take it for granted now. But when you
think about telling a story like this and this is
something I often think about generally it's so much easier
to commit a crime in the 90s because, like, it's
so hard now to get. I mean, I know because
I've been trying it's so hard to like get away
with the crime now because everything is like, whereas in

(22:20):
that era, like even, you know, obviously Reena, like, kind
of goes missing for all this time and there's like
a little tiny bit of CCTV, but like, whereas now
every so much of that would be captured, like you
can so easily trace back because of technology, whereas back then,
you know, you were just smoking and in the dark.

S1 (22:35):
I think that's a good point. And a lot of
authors and, um, film directors and TV makers are setting
their shows just slightly before technology really takes hold for
that very reason, because the logistics of trying to commit
a crime and solve it when there is internet. Yeah,
like changes everything. Well, we were talking about, um, we
were talking about Riley Coffee's character, Rebecca Godfrey, who is

(22:57):
this journalist who comes back to write her book, and
then she gets entangled. Really entangled with these children. Thomas,
have you ever covered a story like that?

S2 (23:07):
Uh, yes. Actually, uh, no. Look, I've never really done. Sadly.
I know we'll get on to your crime career, Mel. Uh,
for the listeners. Spent a lot of time working in
as a court reporter. She likes to mention it. Probably
twice a day. I reckon.

S1 (23:22):
Some of us have to do real journalism here. Uh.

S2 (23:26):
But. Yes. No. Sadly, I haven't had to go to
a small town and look at a murder yet. Um,
perhaps one day. But, yeah, I don't know. Does it
speak to your time as a court reporter?

S1 (23:34):
Look, no, not really, because I think and I think
Riley Keefe is good at this, but her character, which
is based on the real author of the book, gets
away with so much in this. And I think she's
ever held ethically or morally culpable for what she does,
which is hanging out with teenagers kind of really get
involved in a police case, and.

S2 (23:53):
She does acid with a 14 year old boy.

S1 (23:55):
She drops acid, which I sleeping over with him? Uh, yeah.
She's sleeping over with him. Um, she's kind of misleading
the cops, um, influencing the kids to kind of what
testimony they give. And to me, the show just really
let her off and didn't really examine the role she
was playing, which I thought she was completely out of

(24:17):
line in a lot of the way she did. And
what was she getting out of this? She was getting
a book. She was working on. And the show at
one point shows the New York Times ad for the
book that's coming out, and you can't help but feel
that she's capitalizing on this crime so much. But the
show doesn't really hold her to account for for this. Meg,
what did you like her character?

S3 (24:34):
I'm not sure how I was supposed to feel about her,
because everything that was presented to me, like she seemed
like a bad writer. Even when she's entering the town,
she's got this, like, book full of notes saying like,
it's a terrible story. She's jumping on this thing without
any real direction or ethical guidance or sense of what

(24:55):
she's doing. She's ruining this actual like, police case of murder.
It all seems really critical in a way that it
didn't ever seem to really like. It felt like I
was supposed to be rooting for her when she's just,
you know, making a mess of the situation and for
pretty poor results. I mean, the stuff that she says
into her voice recorder that's supposed to be these, like,

(25:16):
very insightful notes. It's terrible. It's so terrible.

S1 (25:20):
The whole idea of the voice recorder when she's sitting
at the cafe speaking to it, I mean, can you
imagine doing that? I know that.

S2 (25:26):
That felt like a bit cringe. I thought Riley was
pretty good, though. I like Riley. I mean, we love
Elvis's family.

S1 (25:32):
Yeah, I think she did what she could with a
script that we love Elvis's family, but I think she
did what she could with a script that probably made
her character pretty.

S3 (25:43):
Two D it kind of feels it feels like what
you were saying before. I agree that the show is
really spread thin across a lot of people, and what
the most interesting part is, is actually these young girls,
and it needed more time to focus on them. But
the show was kind of sold by its big stars.
You've got Lily Gladstone, you've got Riley Keough, so you
want to make the most of them. But that feels
really not ideal for the story. That is the most

(26:05):
interesting in the plot, which I think makes it a
bit scattered.

S1 (26:07):
Yeah, totally. And there is this relationship between Riley and
Lily Thomas. You mentioned that you like seeing Lily Gladstone
in her first role since, um, killers of the Flower Moon,
which we probably all think Osman is sitting at home
watching on repeat right now, as she is really good
playing Molly, and I think we all agree, deserved to
win the Oscar for that role, but lost out to
Emma Stone. I thought she was really good in this.

(26:28):
I thought again, I think she plays understated really well.
I think she I think Riley can overact in a
way with the emotions, but Lily has this pared back
kind of thing where she can give a lot, but
not in an obvious way. I really liked her as
this detective, and I wanted more of her and could
have almost done with less Riley and cut off some
of the other issues, and had her as a real

(26:49):
kind of more of a lead character in this. Did
you think she did good?

S2 (26:53):
Yeah, I think no, I think she was good. Like,
she's obviously a good actress. Um, obviously, in case she's listening.
Well done, Lily, but no, I think it's more just like,
I think I'm just personally curious, like, about. I just
find it interesting about, like, the decision making process for
someone like Lily Gladstone when you've, like, come off a
massive movie where also that that movie was, like, really
about her killers of the Flower Moon. She's like, she
dominates it. It goes for like seven hours and she's

(27:14):
like on screen for six hours and 50 minutes, whereas
then like this, I just found it interesting because it's
not a really like maybe on on the page she
was like, this is going to be like a super
buzzy project. I don't know, like it has got buzz,
but I don't know if for her it was like
such a great showcase of her talents, even though she
is good in it. Um, so I just thought that
was kind of an interesting, like sideways move for her

(27:35):
career wise. And I wonder if she's kind of like
sitting somewhere with her agents being like, hmm, well, like,
we did that and like, probably like won't rush into another,
you know, like TV project. But I thought generally, you know,
they were good together. I actually thought, like, there were
some things this show did which were at least interesting, like, um,
you know, there is a obviously we spoke about Rina being,
you know, like the children of these Indian immigrants and

(27:56):
Jehovah's Witnesses, and we do get like a kind of
sandwiched in the middle, like a bottle episode that tells
the story of her parents meeting. And it's basically a
complete flashback episode, um, watching her dad, you know, like,
migrate to Canada and being kind of like, uh, he's
not a Jehovah's Witness, but he gets like, sucked into,
you know, the community there. And then he meets Rina's mother,
and it's like a full flashback episode, which I thought
was interesting. Like, again, that part of that was like,

(28:18):
I can see what the show is doing. Like it's
it's like taking a format that has been done successfully
elsewhere and just kind of like transplanting it. I don't
know if it works, but I was like, oh, props
for trying. Yeah.

S1 (28:28):
What did you think about Lili Meg? Because in some
ways this isn't a whodunit, because you do know whodunit
pretty early on. So the role of the detective is
a bit of a different one to your conventional crime drama.
Were you happy with the amount of Lily you got
in this show?

S3 (28:42):
Yeah, I suppose it would have been nice to see
a little more. And I agree that she was a
stronger character than Riley Keough's journalist. I suppose a comparison
is Kate Winslet in Mare of Easttown, and that was
kind of seen her. That was seen as her stepping
out onto the small screen, having a big role in
a different way. So it could have been that Lily

(29:03):
was shooting for that kind of thing. It also could
have been that she shot this before killers, or at
the same time as killers, like, yeah, who knows how
these things work? Um, I don't think it was a
poor use of her talent, though. I think she does
this kind of silent stoicism quite well. She's got a
real sense of righteousness and. Doing the right thing. It
would be nice to see her in different kinds of roles,

(29:24):
because obviously those are qualities that are pretty similar to
her character in killers of the Flower Moon. And I
think it's often easy to cast this, you know, such
talented indigenous actress with the same kind of thing over
and over again, because she does it well. But, you know,
she's a very talented actress. I'm sure she can do
loads of different things. It would have been nice to

(29:45):
see a bit more range as well.

S1 (29:46):
And did you guys go down the rabbit hole of
this one into. Because I did find myself on this
case looking up where the real life killers were at. Um,
did you guys do the research before you watched it
or after you watched it? Or have you gone down
that rabbit hole?

S2 (29:59):
I have gone down that rabbit hole. Um, obviously, like,
you know, an official spoiler alert for anyone listening who
is in the middle of watching the show, but particularly
the kind of one the main young guy in it,
Warren Gorlitsky, who I think the actors from euphoria, um,
his character kind of like looking at he had a
really interesting, like post crime journey. Um, in terms of

(30:21):
becoming like an advocate for justice. He became quite close
with Marina Burke's family. Um, and that's, you know, it
was interesting. And then also, I watched like a I
must have been like, I don't know, today USA interview
with Joe. Um, and she, she is kind of exactly
what you would imagine her to be. But yeah, I
guess and you know, back to, I guess, the original
point of what is the appeal of these types of

(30:42):
projects that also I think is like big for me,
getting to do the post show like Wikipedia and Google
until you like, read every single piece of like information
out there about what happened to these people. I do
think that's like always fun.

S1 (30:55):
Yeah, it kind of troubled me a bit. These kids
were so young. As the show makes a real point
of expressing when when this incident happened, that then to
fictionalize it. You do wonder about the real life consequences
on their life going forward. I mean, we have seen
how some people like Anna Delphi, of course, has capitalized
on the fame that a Netflix series did, but hers

(31:17):
was obviously a very different case, and people had a
different relationship to what she did to to these kids. Um, Meg,
I know earlier you were saying that was part of
your concern about these shows that are based on real events.
Have you gone and done all your research on on
what happened to the real characters?

S3 (31:33):
Um, I wouldn't say I've gone and done my research.
I've done just enough research to have this conversation because
I only watched the first three episodes, which don't really
give you a full understanding of whodunit. Exactly. Um, so
I know the outlines of what happened, but not, you know,
the full characterizations or interviews they did after or their
whole life. Are you going to keep.

S1 (31:53):
Going with it?

S3 (31:54):
Yeah, I think I will. Um, yeah, I definitely will.
I don't know if I'll then do all the research,
but I think it's a worthwhile show to jump into
and see all the way through.

S1 (32:03):
Yeah. Good mix. After you've watched like 15 episodes of Taskmaster.

S3 (32:07):
Yeah, maybe. The comparison is quite harsh for me as well.
I'm like, what a show. Prestige television.

S1 (32:20):
From a real life story to a fictional one. Let's
move on to Presumed Innocent.

S7 (32:25):
I just want to make sure that we have everything
exactly right.

S8 (32:28):
Let's get started.

S7 (32:29):
You aware that Carolyn Palamas was murdered? When was the
last time you were in Carolyn's apartment?

S9 (32:35):
Uh, we had cases together. Sometimes we would work after
hours at her apartment.

S7 (32:40):
Your fingerprints were found in her bedroom. Were you and
Karolina romantically involved?

S8 (32:53):
My suspect.

S9 (32:54):
Because I did not kill her.

S1 (32:57):
Three apps are out now on Apple TV. This is
based on Scott Turlough's best selling 1986 legal whodunit of
the same name, which has already been adapted for screen
in 1990. Wow, starring Harrison Ford and our own Greta. Sacha.
Had you guys seen this movie? I had not seen it.
So I went into the TV show knowing nothing about
the plot. But I know the many people adored the film.

(33:20):
Had you watched it?

S2 (33:21):
I've never said no. I hadn't seen it. And I'm like, yeah,
I'm curious because I'm so into this show now. So
I like don't want any spoilers from anybody.

S1 (33:29):
What about you, Meg?

S3 (33:30):
I, I hadn't seen it. I'd heard of it, obviously.
And I know that, yeah, people really hold it in
high respect. After I watched the first couple of episodes
of the TV show, I went and watched the movie. Um,
I've watched three quarters of the movie and googled the
last bit of the plot, which is very important. And look,
I had to go to sleep. I'm sick. But, um,

(33:50):
it was really interesting to compare the two and compare
the performances with Jake Gyllenhaal and Harrison Ford, which are
very different. Compare the story, different treatments of the story,
particularly its treatment of women, which it is. Um, yeah,
we can talk about.

S1 (34:05):
Yes, I would love to. Well, that is really interesting. Um,
so the miniseries is created by David E Kelley, who
we know loves legal shows. He was behind Big Little Lies,
Boston Legal, ally McBeal, my favorite. Um. The miniseries stars
Jake Gyllenhaal as a prosecutor who becomes the prime suspect
in the murder of one of his colleagues. Carolyn. There's
some really great, um, uh, supporting roles here Bill camp

(34:27):
and Peter Sarsgaard, um, who are in the prosecutor's office,
Peter Sarsgaard in real life, Jake Gyllenhaal's brother in law.
So there you go. Fun little fun little addition. Um, Meg,
what did you make of the show? And having also
gone back and watched the movie, which one do you prefer?

S3 (34:46):
Um, I really prefer the TV show a lot. Um,
it's so juicy and pulpy. You know, sometimes I kind
of catch myself feeling bad for enjoying it so much.
There's quite a lot of explicit, leering shots of, you know,
Carolyn's dead body and these throwback scenes of when they

(35:07):
were having sex. And it's just like it's made to
be quite deliberately juicy in that way, but it really
hooks you as well. Like Jake Gyllenhaal's performance is out
of control. He is sweating, he is manic. Um, love
that for him. He's such a good actor when he's
allowed to just go full crazy, like, I mean, anyone
who's seen him in that role in October knows just

(35:29):
how crazy he can go. Um, I loved that. It's just. Yeah,
there's great political intrigue with him in the kind of
district attorney's office, which doesn't sound interesting, but is in
the context. Um, and I particularly love that this TV
version allows for a lot more scope of what's happening
in his home life. So, I mean, he's had this

(35:50):
affair with his co-worker. She's then died. It goes on
from there. But in the movie, there's not much scope
given to his wife to have much direct input on
how that's affected their home life, or how this ongoing
court case will kind of explode their lives. And that's
such a big part of the show and causes so
much anguish in Gyllenhaal's character.

S1 (36:09):
Yeah, I've only watched, so there's only three apps out
at the moment on Apple TV, and they're releasing it
week by week. I really like this show. I don't
think it's gonna like, is it the best show that's
ever made? I don't think so, but it is so
enjoyable to watch. I think the episodes all have amazing, like,
cliffhanger notes. I think it's so like polished and sleek. Um,

(36:30):
it reminds me a bit of anatomy of a scandal.
It's got a Big Little Lies vibe, like you're in
the circle of the rich and the powerful here, and
you're watching how that powers wielded by everyone, um, there's
personal politics, there's office politics. There's obviously a brutal crime. Um,
given I haven't watched the movie, I do find, like,
I don't know which way the show is going to go,

(36:52):
which is keeping me on the edge of my seat.
Whereas I feel like if you'd watch the movie and
you kind of know how it's going to play out,
you'd have a very different experience watching this. But, um,
I think it's really a watchable, enjoyable show. Thomas, have
you binged this?

S2 (37:05):
Uh, I, I've seen all the episodes that are out. Um,
the supporting cast is really good and like. Yeah, it's
like it's a very uncomfortable watch, like made kind of
touched on it. The family element is such a big
part of this. Like obviously, you know, this isn't really
a spoiler, but you know, he's had this explicit affair
with his colleague and, and we kind of pick up
in the first episode when his wife there in the

(37:27):
aftermath of it and they're kind of patching their lives
back together. And then all of this stuff gets dropped in,
which makes it very clear that, in fact, you know,
the affair is not over and has been continuing. And
and it's almost like that element, too, is so difficult
to watch because you're watching this guy, he's like almost
playing whack a mole, trying to like, patch the different
holes in his life. And then you add into that,

(37:48):
like when when things start to unfold and he becomes,
you know, the center of this crime. It is it's
an anxious watch. Um, which often doesn't sound like a
fun time, but it still makes for a gripping kind
of viewing. Yeah, I again, this to me feels like
a show that is very considered in terms of like, okay,
what does it take to be a crime drama that
is going to elevate you above, you know, the rest

(38:09):
of the many, many crime dramas? And I feel like
this really has it, like particularly with the politics of
the DA's office. Again, we join, I guess, the show
when there's like a political race to be head of
the Da. And, um, you know, Jake Gyllenhaal's character is
kind of wedded to the outgoing Da. And so there's
like a political element there. And yeah, I just feel
like it's it's very much a well-rounded show. And it is,

(38:31):
of course like a crime drama. But that's not exactly
all it's offering, even though, you know, it does get
very graphic and it.

S1 (38:39):
Is quite a graphic show. And this is Jake's first
small screen leading role. I thought he was very good.
I thought he was. He stole the show in all
the ways. Um, I, he brings and my heart, of
course he brings what? Um, he's so good at doing
that kind of dark, mysterious, broody, kind of slightly unhinged

(38:59):
character that stole Taylor's scarf, um, from movies. He brings
that to this role so perfectly. Did. What did you
make of Jake? Meg?

S3 (39:09):
Yeah. I thought he was incredible. I mean, he's got that. Yeah, really.
Manic face is bulging eyes. I love a really beautiful
pretty boy who's not afraid to be ugly in every way.
It makes the best viewing. Like this is a man
who could have just been doing rom coms his entire career,
but he is doing the weirdest stuff in film. I
can't wait to see what he does on TV. Yeah, yeah.

S1 (39:29):
He really does that slightly kinda unhinged thing, so. Well, yeah.

S2 (39:33):
Although that being said, I don't know if either of
you guys watch Roadhouse. He's like most recent film, which.

S3 (39:38):
Was I've been meaning to I've been meaning, oh my God,
is it.

S2 (39:40):
Good? It's so bad. Like it's like it's a remake
of the Patrick Swayze film. It's like. I think it's
an Amazon film. I watched it mostly because, like, Conor
McGregor is in it. I was curious to see like
him acting. It was it was bad as I imagined.
But Roadhouse again, like, I don't know why I'm so
obsessed with people's IMDb profiles today, but like, such a
bad movie. Yeah. It's like, yeah.

S1 (39:58):
Oh, that's a shame I didn't. I watched that one
on Netflix where he plays the ambulance responder and it's
so intense. It's just like an hour of him kind
of making big eye faces. Um, it was kind of
quite claustrophobic.

S2 (40:09):
Yeah. He's actually got, like, a really good body of work.
Have you guys seen prisoners? Like, that's like one of
my all time favorite films.

S1 (40:14):
Zodiac. Yeah.

S2 (40:15):
Zodiac.

S1 (40:16):
Great. David Fincher film. Yeah. Um, well, hopefully we'll be
seeing a lot more of him. Um. You bet. Thomas,
you kind of mentioned, um, a bit earlier that, you know,
we're seeing these crime dramas aspire to be more kind
of like high art, whereas in the 90s and 2000
and Meg's still watching them, we had the kind of
CSIS and the Law and Orders and procedural series. Do

(40:38):
you think that, you know, the kind of talking about
David E Kelley, the Boston Legal era of crime drama
is over?

S2 (40:46):
Well, I guess like yes and no. It's funny because
David E Kelley, like, he both did like the Boston Legal,
which is, you know, that kind of I mean, that
was more of a comedy ish, but that serial show.
And then he also did Big Little Lies and pretty
sure he wrote that. So I mean, he's kind of
got a foot in both camps, but I do think,
you know, we had last year NCIS Sydney premiered. So like,

(41:06):
that level still exists. And there are people like, I
just got back from New York. I don't know if
you guys know, but, um, like, there, you know, you
see so many billboards for shows over there and it's
still like CSI season 5000 or whatever. Like it's still
kind of going on, but it's just like there has
been this massive division now where it's like those shows
exist for some people and whatever, and we'll keep making them.
And if you want to keep watching them, like they'll

(41:27):
always be there. But now it is like this kind
of elevation. It's like we've got the, you know, top
subscriber tier of crime TV shows. And that's what these,
I think definitely play into. And I do think that
that's a format that's been kind of like molded by
like the mayors of East Sound the night of what
was the other HBO one rerun, This city or whatever. Like,
like it's become a genre, like an offshoot of the

(41:49):
original genre where, you know, you got to have like,
probably like a really small town. You've got to explore
the politics of that small town. There's got to be
like racial and gender issues explored, like it's got it.

S1 (42:00):
You've got cast members. Yeah.

S2 (42:01):
And it's like and a similar thing with like, you know,
we talk about so much how True Detective like redefined
TV and stuff. I do think all of those have
kind of come together to like, give us this new
version of crime drama. And if you really, you know,
want to get the big names and stuff, you have
to deliver a product that ticks all those boxes.

S1 (42:18):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Do you think crime
is to prestige these days, Meg? Do you miss the
kind of old school pay? Meg. Yeah.

S3 (42:27):
Well, it's interesting because shows like, you know, CSI and
Law and Order, these are still incredibly popular. Like, I
think the audience numbers would well outweigh these kind of
prestige offerings. There's a reason they're still getting pumped out
at such great pace. But I feel like this show
in particular is such a nice melding of both those worlds,
because in many ways it is just a legal procedural,

(42:47):
and I think eventually will be once they're kind of
in the courtroom deciding the case. And that has that tasty.
Kind of hokey way of drawing you in that these
other shows, do you know what's coming? You know, the
structure of the courtroom drama. But in the other way,
you know, it is a prestige show and that it's
got Jake Gyllenhaal's first role. It's got, you know, this
back story with the text that it's based on, which

(43:09):
is also big name roles. I mean, Harrison Ford in
the original, and then even then it does, you know,
the discourse that surrounds a show like this will have
those kind of broader social concerns. There's a lot of
discussion around the different ways they treat women. And, you know,
this one's not perfect as well. I feel like so
many of the old shots of Caroline, you see from
Jake Gyllenhaal's perspective is like a dead wife shot. It's like, oh,

(43:30):
she's so beautiful and perfect. Like, look at her in
slow motion in this bar. Yeah. Um, but compared to
the film, it's so much better. That was very much, um,
you know, you hear that this, this hard core prosecutors
being killed, and her boss finds out in the office,
and he's like a beautiful, sexy gal like that. No way. Um,

(43:51):
it's like, wow, you knew this woman. You're really shaken up. Um,
and particularly the way that her relationships are brought up
in the original film, she, you know, these erotic thrillers
of the 80s and 90s when any woman had any
kind of active sexual life, it was like deviant in
some way and usually ended in violence in some way.
So Caroline, in the, in the original had a lot

(44:14):
of sexual partners and that was kind of painted her
in a particular light. And so when people find out
about her murder, it's like, well, I suppose that's what happens.
She had.

S1 (44:22):
It coming.

S3 (44:23):
It's really, really bad. Yeah. So at least in this retelling,
you know, she's a human being, um, she's allowed to
have sex and not be murdered. Um, it's an interesting
retelling on that respect. But also, I'd say it's, you know,
I've heard a lot of people who've read the book
and seen the film and are now watching the TV
show and say that it actually has deviations from the

(44:44):
original texts in some ways, and I don't know all
of them because I haven't read the book. Um, but.
I think it's still a really interesting watch if you
have seen those things, because they're really playing with the
text and what twists you think are coming and don't come. Um,
and it may, yeah, it may surprise you. I suppose
even reviewers in the US who have seen everything but

(45:04):
the final episode, they don't know, you know, who actually
did the crime. So we could all be surprised. Yeah.

S1 (45:09):
That's good. We'll keep you watching. Um, yeah. The even
I haven't seen the original, but it is a bit
of a weird representation still of Carolyn, the colleague who
is dead. There are some quite a lot of graphic
shots of her body and the violence against her. And
then there are a lot of kind of flashbacks to
sex scenes. Um, and then I won't say what it is,

(45:31):
but Jake makes a discovery about her, which also then
feeds into a different shaping of her discovery after she's
dead that affects him, that feeds into the shaping of her, um,
maybe in a way that is a bit uneasy, um,
with what they're trying to do with that discovery. But,
I mean, watching both of these shows under the bridge
and presumed innocent back to back, obviously, one is a

(45:52):
true story. One is a fictional. But, you know, it
is hard to ignore that so many of these shows
hinge on really awful things happening to women.

S2 (46:03):
Mhm. Yeah I know it's like it's a, it's a
strange thing because it's like this kind of self-fulfilling problem
of the genre that everyone especially nowadays knows is like
not okay. And yet we can't seem to like break
the like, you look at so many of these shows
and it's just like it's always the same thing. Even like,
you know, thinking about like lots of Australian shows. The 12,

(46:23):
that was a really horrible crime. Like to a young girl.
Like it's it's like we we're all so self aware
that this is the formula and like the pitfalls of
that formula and yet like consistently a new show will
come out and it'll be like a young girl missing
in a small town. Everyone's like, fuck, that looks pretty good.
I might watch it like, I don't know. It's just like,
how do you change that hardwiring of the genre?

S1 (46:45):
Like, yeah, make beyond these two shows. Is it kind
of lazy plotting or is it also kind of a
reflection of the world in which violent crimes are more
likely to be committed against women?

S3 (46:55):
Yeah, I think that's the difficult truth. That's hard to
avoid when you're telling these crime stories and particularly true crime,
in that, you know, it usually is women who are
subject to this kind of violence, and it's usually from men. Um,
so that is hard to get away from in many respects.
I will also shout out deadlock again, though, because that
is based around, uh, men being murdered in a small

(47:16):
town in Tasmania. So a fun spin on the genre.

S1 (47:22):
Yeah. That's, uh. Yeah, that's very true. And I mean,
I think what is interesting about these shows, as opposed
to other, other crime series, is that they do, to
varying levels of success, try to hold space for the
victims as well rounded characters. So they're not just explicitly
a way to move the plot forward or to give
other characters an arc. They do try to hold room

(47:42):
for them. And I think.

S2 (47:43):
Especially with Under the Bridge, that even that kind of
like very meta narrative takes place in the story where,
like Riley Keoughs character is writing this book and she's
kind of like more focused on the salacious details. And
she has these, like, dealings with Rina's family, and that
kind of then begins to shape her, I guess, like
consideration of how much weight she needs to actually give
to the victim. And like, you know, I think that

(48:04):
that show does a pretty good job of it. But yeah,
I mean, like you said, it is probably a sad
reflection of the fact that this is typically how it
tends to go. And so it's hard to like drift
away from that source material too much, which is why
I might just keep watching Vera on ABC, because she's
got that funny little hat. It's always cute. Like, kind
of like county crimes.

S1 (48:23):
You should try Father Brown to nothing like a detective
in a in a collar.

S2 (48:27):
I see. I still, I think for me like one
of the. And lots of people name check this. But
have you guys seen Broadchurch? Like Broadchurch to me is like,
you know, that's a great crime show that doesn't feel
too like, you know, icky.

S3 (48:39):
But how do British filmmakers and TV makers make murder
seem so cute? How does that happen? I'm not really
well-versed in the genre.

S1 (48:47):
Yeah, I think they don't really.

S2 (48:49):
Spend a lot of time watching ABC at night.

S1 (48:51):
They they don't really show a lot of too much
of the graphicness of the crime. And I think it's
just the English way they're repressed, kind of their repression.
They don't really leave room for emotion. You know, they've
got a job to do and and they get it done. Um, also,
I think there's something about because there's so many episodes

(49:11):
in some of those BBC ones that have gone on
for so many years, like they don't really have to
give any emotion because, you know, it's going to be
solved by the end of the episode. And is it.

S2 (49:19):
Happy Valley, another one that's been going on for like
500 years? Yeah, that's.

S1 (49:21):
Actually a really good show. I'm in shock. I can't
believe I'm here defending British crime. Um, which that does
kind of bring me. Uh, as I was saying, you
can go back and watch all of those episodes. Under
the bridge came out all at once in Australia. Presumed
innocent coming out. Two episodes to start and then week
by week. Do you prefer your crime served up to

(49:43):
you in one sitting, or do you? How do you
feel about the week by week?

S2 (49:46):
Uh, no, actually, I think particularly with a presumed innocence.
Even though I was like really into it. I think
that suits perfectly a weekly drop. I just like it's
a bit too much to take in and you can't
really like. I think the episodes are like close to
an hour. Um, you probably need to like, marinate on
it a little bit under the bridge, I thought wasn't
as like probably like suited. You could just, like, go

(50:07):
at your own pace. But I think generally with these
crime shows, it's better to have them like teased out
week over week. You don't want to be like, it's
a lot.

S1 (50:14):
Yeah. I also feel like because Presumed Innocent, the concept
is quite simple. You don't. It's okay to wait a week.
Like you're not going to forget. Who was that character?
What were they doing? What is this plot? Whereas Under
the Bridge has so much going on that I think
watching it week by week, you could very easily forget
where you're up to and lose your way in that
story and.

S2 (50:33):
Multiple timelines and stuff as well.

S1 (50:35):
Yeah, yeah, it becomes a bit more confusing. It is a.

S3 (50:37):
Bit a shame though, because I mean, you know, I've
seen three episodes of Under the Bridge now and you've
seen the full series and you don't get to discuss
it in the same way. There's not that kind of,
you know, what do you think is happening here? What
do you think's happening with this person? Who do you
think did it? Because everyone's experiencing it at different times,
which is a bit of a shame.

S1 (50:52):
Yeah. You kind of miss the watercooler moment. Um, which
I feel presumed innocent has, particularly if it has for sure. Yeah.
A generation of those episodes.

S3 (51:00):
All. Boy, they get you.

S1 (51:02):
Yeah. Good. All right. Let's move on to impressing our friends.

S2 (51:07):
Or as you wrote in the script, recommendations for friends,
even though the segment is called Impress Your Friends every
single week.

S10 (51:13):
That's like.

S3 (51:13):
Um, she's putting her own stamp on it. Okay. Yeah, that's.

S1 (51:16):
Like a more austere one. Like this.

S10 (51:18):
Recommendations for friends by Melanie.

S1 (51:19):
Kimmy. Friends you may have. All right. Recommend to us
your friends. Thomas.

S2 (51:24):
Uh, well, my one is a bit of a strange
one this week. Um, it's actually the new David Sedaris
longread in the New Yorker. I don't know if you
guys know, but I was recently in New York.

S1 (51:32):
You also love David Sedaris.

S10 (51:35):
I do love I.

S2 (51:35):
Mean, that's not, like, a weird.

S10 (51:37):
Thing.

S1 (51:37):
No, I know, but I think you are, like, a
true fanboy.

S2 (51:42):
Yeah, I love Sedaris, and I think, you.

S10 (51:44):
Know, which I like.

S2 (51:45):
Meg. Do you like Sedaris?

S3 (51:47):
I do the idea of you reading, uh, Sedaris article
in the New Yorker in New York while eating a
bagel and thinking about your bagel business is extremely funny, but.

S2 (51:55):
Like, it's like, fucking not far off, to.

S10 (51:56):
Be honest. Uh, no, but.

S2 (51:59):
I bought I actually bought a bunch of magazines while
I was there because I was like, that's kind of
what you do when you're overseas. I don't buy magazines
any other times. But I bought, like it's kind of
a novelty too, because I got like Vanity Fair, The
New Yorker and, um, some other fucking magazine anyway.

S3 (52:13):
But like, shout out print media.

S2 (52:15):
But I just bought it because I was in a bookshop.
And then I opened it up and I was like, oh,
there's actually a Sedaris story in here. And he doesn't
write for them that often anymore. And yes, I do
really like him. Um, saw him last time he came
out at the opera house. Did you actually kind of
a weird show, to be honest. He's he's going drifting
a little bit into, like, the kind of weird older
man woke like weird older man. Like, I hate cancel

(52:38):
culture territory, but that's a story for another day.

S10 (52:40):
So it's fun.

S2 (52:41):
Anyway, impress your friends with this David Sedaris longread because
it actually is really funny. Um, it's called notes on
a Last Minute Safari, and it's basically as many of
his stories are. It's just about a trip he and
his husband, Hugh, took to Kenya a last minute safari.
And it's very, very funny. He talks about kind of
the strange dichotomy of being like on these, like, you know,
made for tourists tours, but then also staying in what

(53:03):
he calls the most glamorous tent that he's ever been in.
It's like better than most apartments he's ever owned. So yeah,
it is classic Sedaris. Very funny, I enjoyed it. Um,
can recommend specifically eating a bagel while enjoying it in, uh,
the Lower.

S10 (53:17):
East Side, a bagel.

S1 (53:17):
From Thomas Mitchell's new bagel.

S10 (53:19):
Business.

S2 (53:19):
Yeah, yeah. Watch this space for the bagel business coming soon.

S1 (53:22):
Can I ask? I used to be very into David Sedaris.

S10 (53:25):
And. And did you grow out of it? No.

S1 (53:29):
But I did. He's very obviously very good at what
he does. But is he still. I feel like once
you've read, like, a lot of David Sedaris, you kind
of get his thing. And I kind of grew out
of it.

S10 (53:41):
Oh my God, you're kidding.

S1 (53:42):
I'm kidding. But, um.

S10 (53:44):
I mean, you're not kidding his style.

S1 (53:46):
I mean, I haven't read his stuff for, like, a
long time. I mean, has he changed his style or
he's still doing what he does really well?

S10 (53:52):
Yeah, I think, like.

S2 (53:53):
I mean, yeah, sadly for my simple tastes, Melanie, uh, I,
I enjoy what he does. I think he's funny. Like. Yeah,
I agree, like, I've read I've read all of his books.
They all give you the same thing. You probably don't
want to like you can't read them back to back
to back. But yeah, I think he's a really funny writer. And, um,
sometimes I just want to have a laugh while I
am reading.

S10 (54:10):
Thank you for your recommended.

S2 (54:11):
For me, for me and the other. Like people who
like the low hanging fruit, um, read, read, read notes
on a last minute safari by David Sedaris.

S10 (54:19):
And then, I don't know, I love the.

S3 (54:21):
The segment's called Impress Your Friends, and you've only been
roasted by a.

S10 (54:24):
Friend. Yeah, exactly.

S1 (54:26):
Well, that's why we rebranded.

S10 (54:28):
It as a.

S1 (54:28):
Recommendation for.

S10 (54:29):
Your friend. It'll impress my dumb friends.

S2 (54:32):
Um, if you're friends with Melanie, then obviously, uh, check
out parade, the new Cusk. Um, it's completely fucking incomprehensible, but.

S1 (54:40):
All right. Meg, what? Are you okay? Yeah, like. I'm sorry.
I've made this a very antagonistic section.

S10 (54:46):
All right, all right. Meg, what have you got?

S1 (54:49):
Sorry. It's happened. Um, Meg, what have you got for us?

S3 (54:52):
Um, I have got an album because I don't have
much TV to recommend on Tenplay. Unfortunately, um, it's Jessica
Pratt's new album here in the pitch, which came out
last month, but I'm slow to getting getting to this week. Um,
and also her music generally. I mean, this is her
fourth album. She's been around for a while. The kind
of person who her songs pop up in Spotify playlists

(55:14):
all the time when I'm just like, oh, songs for
a Rainy walk. And it's like, oh, so dreamy, so nice. Um,
but this album in particular is really great for people
who don't know her. She's a singer songwriter from the
US who's been compared to Joni Mitchell a lot. She
does folk music, but kind of like ethereal, psychedelic folk
type stuff. This album in particular was, um, inspired by

(55:36):
LA and like the late 60s, so it's got deep
Manson vibes for all those motorheads out there. Um, this
kind of sunny and sinister mix, which, uh, is really
nice listening at the moment when you know you're in
a cold, wintry Melbourne morning and want to feel like
you're in sunny 60s L.A..

S1 (55:54):
I think that is so true. Meg, I really agree
with this recommendation, mainly because I.

S10 (55:59):
Made it a few weeks ago. Did I missed it?

S1 (56:02):
I think this album is so good that I reckon
we can have it twice on there just for, uh,
people who haven't listened to it because it's quite it's
it's a short album too, but you just feel like I.

S3 (56:12):
Was just going to say it's nice. It's like nine songs.
It's so digestible. You don't feel overwhelmed by the content
of some other creators. Um, would.

S10 (56:20):
I get it.

S2 (56:21):
Or would I?

S10 (56:22):
I reckon I could see you with your.

S1 (56:23):
New Yorker and.

S10 (56:24):
Your bagel and listening to.

S1 (56:26):
These kind of folky sounds. I think you'd love.

S2 (56:29):
It as long as you could be there to explain.

S10 (56:30):
It to me. Oh, here we go. What's yours? Okay.

S1 (56:35):
Mine is, um, is Queenie, which is on Disney Plus.
It's based on the book, um, Candice Carty-williams book. Uh,
it's a eight episode series. It's kind of a coming
of age. It's set in south London. It follows the
main characters. Queenie's kind of. She has a break up
and then recovering from that. But it's got a lot

(56:55):
about her family dynamic as well. Look, it's a really
watchable show that's getting better with every episode. I'm about
four episodes in, um, but it's a really good depiction of, um,
South London Gen Z. Um, there's lots going on in it,
but it's also very funny. Um, so if you're looking
for a kind of nice show, um, change.

S10 (57:15):
Of pace from the.

S2 (57:16):
Many murders.

S10 (57:17):
From the many murders.

S1 (57:18):
This is a good one. It's got a lot of heart. Um,
at the same time as. It's very funny. And I
like all the shots of, um, London as well.

S3 (57:24):
Did you say it was on Disney+? It's on.

S1 (57:26):
Disney+.

S10 (57:26):
Yeah. So you can't watch Meg, unfortunately. Well, yeah.

S3 (57:30):
One more day. One more day. Um, I feel I
feel like there's a lot of good stuff going under
the radar on Disney at the moment. I mean, that
was clipped as on Disney. We talked about that last week. Yeah.
Worth checking out when.

S2 (57:40):
They're coming soon and then everything will.

S10 (57:42):
Be as it should be.

S3 (57:44):
And then everyone discovers all the shows that they've missed.

S1 (57:46):
Yeah, yeah. It is like that, isn't it? When you
go onto a stream you haven't looked at in a
while and you're like, oh, there's I'll sit with this
for the next day or two. Do you have a.

S3 (57:53):
Little countdown timer, Thomas, for the season drop of the bear?

S2 (57:56):
Uh, no, I don't I'm obviously very excited. And look,
in one of the I think it was the Vanity
Fair that I read. Ayo Edebiri was on the cover. Um,
actually really interesting interview, blah, blah, blah, but she I
didn't realize.

S3 (58:10):
Um, are you trying to do a second recommendation because
your first flopped? Yeah.

S2 (58:13):
I stand by it. Me and all the Sedaris heads
just getting confused by left and right. But the she
basically worked as a barista at this, uh, restaurant in
New York called ABC kitchen. And the day I read
the story, I went there for dinner. Wow.

S10 (58:28):
Because of that? No, no, no.

S2 (58:29):
No, like before, like when she, like, lived in New
York and was like, just studying acting or whatever and
was like a barista there and then. Yeah. So that
was a fun tie in.

S1 (58:36):
Wow. That's great. There you go. You didn't see any
anyone famous? But you got to go.

S10 (58:40):
Yes, I got to have person at work. Yes.

S2 (58:43):
Close proximity to where I once worked, which is good
enough for me.

S1 (58:47):
What a highlight. Well, thank you so much, guys. We'll
be back next week to No Doubt. Talk about the bear.

S10 (58:54):
Yes thanks guys Joe.

S3 (58:57):
Thank you. Bye.

S1 (59:00):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
a friend. I'm Melanie Kimbrough and we'll see you next week.