What's behind the rise of pop's new stars? Plus, Austin Butler (!) and the state of Australian TV

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Cambry and
Thomas Mitchell. Gang, what is up? It's been a couple
of weeks since we're all together. How are you guys doing?

S2 (00:24):
Yeah, good. Good to be back together. Missed you guys.

S3 (00:27):
Yeah. It's been. It feels like it's been a while
since it's been the three of us. So this is our.
This is great.

S1 (00:32):
Yeah. One thing that hasn't changed since the last time
we spoke a few weeks ago is that the New
South Wales Blues are on the cusp of getting absolutely
destroyed yet again. Uh, an origin again. By the time
this is out, you know, you will know what the
score is. We don't know what it is. Thomas, you
were saying that you feel slightly optimistic because Latrell is
back in the squad?

S2 (00:52):
I do, uh, as you said, it'll probably come back
to haunt me, but, you know, I don't know. I've
been like, I follow Latrell on Instagram, and just the
vibe of his stories this week has been good. Like,
it seems like a good vibe in camp. He's having
lots of tea. Uh, that's been his big thing.

S1 (01:06):
He's drinking a lot of tea. That's what you're hanging
your your your hopes on that.

S2 (01:10):
That's pretty desperate times. All right. So, uh, but yeah,
last time I think I picked the blues by four
and we got absolutely flogged. So this time I'm going
blues by 20 plus. Wow.

S3 (01:21):
That's huge.

S2 (01:22):
Yeah. So anyway, just watch this space, guys.

S3 (01:24):
I like when you put money down because it gives
the game some kind of level of stake for me.
So even though I appreciate that you're putting your money on.

S2 (01:32):
It, maybe we should go in all three.

S3 (01:34):
Yeah. It's better when it's your money.

S1 (01:36):
I mean, his mental health is is a big factor
on how good you feel during the day, isn't it?

S3 (01:40):
Correct. I thought you were going to say when you said, um,
one thing that hasn't changed is that we still don't
have a good answer for you when you say, how
have you been this week?

S1 (01:49):
Our wonderful producer will probably tidy up the awkward gap,
but you both just stare each other in shock that
I asked you the same question I asked you every single.

S3 (01:57):
Always so disappointing. I feel like we always disappoint you.

S2 (02:00):
I'm mostly focused on, like, the different ways that you say,
this is the drop. I just get so zeroed in
on that. And so then after that happens, I just
zone out for like 10s.

S3 (02:10):
Yeah.

S1 (02:10):
I'm a pro man. You know, I bring the A
game to the introduction. Um, let's get on with it.
Today on the show, we got something very exciting. Austin
Butler is on the podcast. He's a star of the
new film The Bike Riders, which is out next week. Uh,
it also stars Jodie Comer and Tom Hardy. I spoke
to Austin about the film, his recent performances in June,

(02:31):
and Elvis, and we had a really fun conversation about
the state of cinema more generally, and why it's important
for people to go to the movies and make sure
that we have movies in the future. There are two
different topics we're going to get into before we play you.
That conversation with Austin in the second half of today's episode,
we're going to talk about the fascinating moment that is

(02:52):
happening in pop music right now. It's actually a lot
going on from the Lord and Charli XCX remix, and
what that means for musical feuds and collaborations going forward,
but also on a much broader scale. The breakthrough success
of artists like Chapel Roan, Sabrina Carpenter, Tinashe, artists who've
been making music for a very long time and are

(03:13):
finally achieving commercial success even in a year that's been
dominated by the big three of Taylor, Beyonce and Billie,
there's a lot to discuss about what's going on in
the musical landscape right now. But first, the Logie nominations
were announced this week. We covered the awards last year,
kind of made the case that even if you're a
bit cynical about these awards ceremonies and the state of

(03:35):
Australian television, they're worth paying attention to because they are
a barometer of what's going on in Australian TV in
the industry right now. So we decided we'd take a
look at the nominations this year and do our own
temperature check on what's happening in Australian TV, and maybe
even make some predictions that hopefully will be more accurate
than Thomas's predictions on the rugby league. Thomas, I'm going

(03:58):
to get your help for this one. You are famously
the Logies guy in this office, in this podcast, in
this country. Really this year, the awards are being done
a little bit differently to the way they've operated for.
I think like most of their history, there are new categories.
There's a new judging system. Can you kind of break
down what is different about the Logie Awards in 2024?

S2 (04:21):
Yes, I'm just going to go and update my Instagram
bio to the Logies guy in this country. Uh, which
is your.

S3 (04:26):
Gold Logie campaign starts today, correct?

S2 (04:29):
Yeah, it's a title I've been coveting for some time.

S1 (04:31):
I think it started last year when we talked about this.
I have a vague memory that we we sort of
thought that by this time next year, Thomas and I
would somehow be Logie nominees.

S2 (04:39):
Either be Logie nominated or writing the Logie show, which
I still think we probably should be tapped to do. Um, sadly,
the broadcast is no longer with the Great Nine Network. Anyway,
all of that aside, uh, yes. So there are some
big changes this year, and it's actually been really reflected
in what the nominations look like. So previously, the awards
were split into Most Popular, which was a fan voted award.

(05:00):
So that was kind of, you know, across everything all
the way up to the gold and, you know, comedy, drama,
reality and then the same. Awards were mirrored in the
Most Outstanding, which was an industry voted award. And that's
been the case since, you know, forever, as you said,
now it's been combined. So the awards are all known
as the best. So best actor, best actress in a drama,

(05:22):
best actor in a comedy. And they are going to
be decided by a combined score. So it'll be a
score determined by assessment criteria, a supplied audience data and
then public votes. So it'll be like a mesh of
what the industry thinks and what the public thinks, and
then how the shows fit into the assessment criteria. So
that really changes things. It's no longer going to be
this kind of popularity contest awards versus, you know, what

(05:45):
the industry thinks. And I guess the point of that
is to, uh, settle on a really more reflective best winner,
which I think is actually a really good thing. Uh,
and generally I think people are excited about that. There's
also been some changes in terms of the actual awards.
So they finally decided to separate the comedy and drama
in the acting categories. So previously it was just like
Best Actor, and you would have people from comedies and

(06:07):
dramas up against each other, whereas now that's, um, completely separate,
which is kind of like what the Emmy Awards does.
So yeah, basically, we're looking at a brand new Logies
for the 64th Annual Logie Awards happening in August. It's
happening again in Sydney. Uh, it moved to Sydney last
year and it will be broadcast on seven. So I
guess like it's, you know, the Logies for a long time,

(06:27):
as we've done on this very podcast, has been probably
criticized as a strange, like, convoluted reflection of basically what
people who still watch Free to Air think maybe. And
that's always been the criticism and perhaps why people are
a little bit indifferent. Whereas this change, I think, is
the Logies being like, look, we've heard you, and now
the entire criteria is a mix of all these different
things and therefore delivers a winner that makes more sense

(06:49):
to people.

S1 (06:50):
Yeah, I think that's a really good summary. Thank you.
And also I think it makes a lot of sense,
like having those awards separated in popular versus best was
just very confusing for people. Uh, and like you said,
separating out comedy and drama also makes a lot of sense. Like,
how do you compare dramatic and comedic performances, though obviously.
And I'm sure this will be the case. Like, you

(07:11):
still get these funny. Shows that end up in weed
categories like you do with the logos. People like the
bear is in comedy and like there's bits of it
that are funny, but it's also one of the most
emotionally intense and dramatic shows on TV right now. But
at least there's some attempt to look at what award
shows are doing elsewhere and how the Logies can, I guess,

(07:32):
mirror them in good ways. I'm interested in what the
viewership data being an input into the awards means, because
we obviously don't really know the numbers on streaming platforms.
Do you have any insight into that, like have streaming
platforms been asked to provide viewership data for this Logies process?

S2 (07:52):
I believe they have, actually, and I think you can
really then see the results of that, because if you
have a look at the particularly the acting categories, Logies.
So for lead actor, lead actress in comedy and drama
as well as supporting it is like stacked with streamers. Um,
so I think that's really played a part. And you know,
and generally it's a huge year for streaming. And again,

(08:13):
I think we're seeing this shift in terms of like
who has been nominated, I guess, firstly, in terms of
some of the big surprises or the big stories coming
out of the initial nominations, Boy Swallows Universe was the
most successful individual show. Obviously, that was a Netflix Australian
production and that was a huge success story. Generally, I
think for Australia it trended all over the world. That's
got eight best nominations, as well as two Graham Kennedy

(08:35):
Awards for the most popular new talent for Felix Cameron
and Lee Tiger Halley. So that was kind of like
the big story coming out. Also, the ABC, it's interesting
time for the ABC generally, but in terms of its nominations,
it's like a record year. They've got 51 nominations now,
as well as Tony Armstrong being nominated for his first
Gold Logie. But you know, we've seen like they've got

(08:55):
17 out of 20 best categories they're nominated in. And
it's kind of spread both across drama and comedy. The
newsreader got a bunch total control, mother and son in limbo,
as well as kind of the usual suspects who get
nominated every year like the Grün's Hard Quiz, the yearly
with Charlie Pickering. So like I do think that the
new criteria has fed into what the makeup looks like

(09:17):
this year. You know, I think it's the first year
that Home and Away doesn't really have any acting nominations
like that does not happen at the Logies. That is
just like, you know. So yeah, the changes seem to
be working in the correct way. So yeah. Interesting times.

S1 (09:29):
Yeah. It does seem like the winners here. Like you said,
Netflix with Boy Swallows Universe and the ABC. I feel
like that that trend, that story that the Logies tell
us about what's been happening in Australian TV the last
12 months or so, streamers and the ABC investing in
comedy and drama, and perhaps the free to air networks

(09:49):
not doing it as much, or at least not doing
it in ways that are being critically or commercially as
well received. I think across the 24 nominees in acting,
across drama and comedy, only one is from a free
to air network, which is Rob Collins in RFDS from seven.

(10:10):
Rob Collins actually nominated twice in the best Lead Actor category,
one for Royal Flying Doctor Service and one for the
ABC Total Control. So good on him. I didn't know
you could do that, but that's pretty cool to have
him twice. Wonder if he's going to split his own vote.

S2 (10:22):
I always enjoy seeing when someone is up against themselves
in a category. Yeah, but yeah, like I also picked
that out as a pretty like insane thing like that.
I think, you know, if you add up all those
different nominations, there's like over 20 nominations and not only
one single commercial free to air show in Royal Flying
Doctor Service. I guess it also speaks to this increasing
trend that when we do have the seven, nine, ten

(10:45):
investing in like local drama drama especially, it's like it
is a mini series. It's, you know, underbellies like that
type of thing. It's not the long running drama. And
so if you have a look at the mini series category,
which has also been separated out this year, there are
more commercial free to air networks. But yeah, I guess
it is a pretty damning indictment of what we discuss
every year whenever the networks do their upfronts. Is that increasingly,

(11:05):
you just don't see the commercial free to air networks
investing in local comedy and drama. It's just not what
they do. And the stream is a really plugged that gap.
And and you know, that's what we see. But sadly, uh,
it shouldn't really be that way. And hopefully Rob Collins
takes it out for Royal Flying Doctor service.

S3 (11:21):
Yeah I think it is kind of a reflection of
the complete shift of original Australian content moving to streaming channels,
and also the choice that networks are making, because a
lot of these networks are associated with Streaming network ten,
with Paramount nine, obviously with Stan, and they're really solidifying
their free to air for reality TV shows. Um, which

(11:42):
is an interesting shift, which we've seen has been happening
for a while. But yeah, when you're looking at the
Logies nominations, you can really see the primes, the netflixes
dominating on there and binge as well.

S1 (11:52):
Yeah. Reality is the the inverse of this conversation, which
is dominated by free to air stuff, reality and lifestyle
I guess. So shows like travel guides on on nine
Better Homes and Gardens on seven and then yeah, with
reality it's alone on SBS, survivor on ten, I'm a
Celebrity on ten, MasterChef on ten, Lego Masters on nine,
The Block on nine. So that that is seemingly the

(12:12):
new TV landscape. Reality on free to air and drama
and scripted comedy on streaming and on the ABC. But
as you pointed out, Mel, like these, some of these
streamers like Stan, which has picked up a swag of nominees,
are part of nine as well. So it just seems
to perhaps be a reflection of the way that audiences

(12:34):
are consuming stuff and who's watching online and who's watching
on appointment free to air stuff like it makes sense
that reality is maybe overrepresented on free to air, because
that is still appointment viewing. You watch MasterChef at this time,
so then you can talk about it the next day.
Whereas for drama and comedy, people just want to watch
that at their whim on online. The other one that

(12:55):
I thought was interesting and is like honestly, frankly, a
little bit sad. Best children's program. And, you know, ABC
deserves props here for having five out of the six nominees.
The only other one being from NITV and Netflix. Eddie's
little homies. There was a era, including the one that
we all grew up in, where the major commercial networks

(13:16):
were investing a lot in children's TV shows, scripted dramas,
all sorts of shows like that. It's just. And this
has been borne out in reports done by the Australian
Children's Television Foundation. There's just not the level of investment
in children's TV that there used to be in Australia,
and it's so interesting having the Logies as a kind
of a data point for that as well.

S3 (13:37):
Yeah, I feel like and we talked about this with
the budget as well, where there was an investment into
children's TV. I feel like ABC has come to dominate
that so convincingly that maybe other networks are moving away
from it. But it is a shame because Bluey, one
of our most successful cultural exports, has shown the power
of children's television to travel internationally. So it is a shame.

(13:59):
But yeah, very clear stronghold on that from the ABC.

S2 (14:02):
It'll be interesting to see if Bluey, which was famously
beaten last year, uh, in quite a shock. Will will,
you know, bounce back. I'm sure it probably will. I
feel like it's been another big year for Bluey with
a batch of new episodes, but yeah, I guess like
going back to that. You know, of course all these
streamers have associations with different networks, you know, Stan and
Nine and stuff. But it's weird. Like if you just
don't have, you know, the capacity to have a bunch

(14:23):
of streaming in your, you know, like monthly budget, you
just like, don't get to watch any Australian drama. Like,
I mean, yeah, you can, you know, we've done some
stories recently on our colleagues who have only watched Tenplay
for a month or only watched SBS On Demand. You
can go and watch old seasons of great Australian drama.
But yeah, it's kind of weird. It's basically if you
want to watch new Australian drama or comedy, then you
have to like, definitely make sure that you're paying, you know,

(14:44):
ten bucks a month extra on top of all the
other bills you pay.

S3 (14:47):
Yeah, that's so true. And also, I think a lot
of these shows, which are really great, deadlock, something like
deadlock had a lot of cut through, but it was
on Prime Video, which is still a relatively smaller streaming
platform in Australia still. And a show like that could
have potentially had far more import if it was on
a streamer with more subscribers or if it was potentially
on ABC, which everyone has access to. So it is

(15:09):
kind of. Yeah, and we've obviously discussed this a bit
before about how, you know, the segmenting of the market
will affect how different shows are received.

S1 (15:16):
I wish I'd done the numbers on this before, but
if you wanted to watch everything nominated for a Logie,
you'd have to have Paramount+, Amazon, Disney+, Netflix, Stan, binge.
That is a lot of money. And you know, the
era that we were growing up in, you would have
free to air that would be overwhelmingly all over the

(15:38):
Logies and then maybe Foxtel for some of those prestige shows.
So that's the other side to this as well. Like
Cost of Living is impacting the kinds of Australian stories
people can access. It's a good point, Thomas, that if
you can't afford all these things, you still probably deserve
Australian stories as well. Let's get to the Gold Logie.
This is probably one that even if people don't necessarily

(15:59):
care about who wins Best Miniseries or Telemovie, there'll be
a cross. The Gold Logie race break that one down
for us. Thomas, who's nominated? What are the surprises here?

S2 (16:09):
Yes. Uh, it's an interesting mix this year, so I
guess we'll go with the nominees first. As I mentioned,
Tony Armstrong, uh, nominated for his first ever Gold Logie. He's,
you know, one of the bright young hopes for the
ABC and very, very popular. Obviously, he's actually on a
hat trick, having won the Graham Kennedy Award in 2022,
the most popular new talent in 2023. And then now

(16:30):
looking at the Gold Logie. And both of those awards
are publicly voted. So, you know, there is a trend
of people voting for Tony. So he's really, really in
the mix.

S1 (16:38):
So I just got to say, as an aside, I
love the fact that you, uh, commentating this like it's
a live sports. Yeah.

S3 (16:43):
You were calling it tournament.

S1 (16:44):
It's really, really good.

S2 (16:46):
Uh, and then alongside him we have Andy Lee. So weirdly,
people were like, oh my God, Hamish Blake, who is,
you know, a two time Gold Logie winner won in 2022, uh,
was beaten by Sonia Kruger last year, but everyone thought
he would be in the mix. He isn't. Instead, Andy
Lee gets his first shot at gold. And then we
also have Asher Keddie. Uh, Julia Morris for I'm A celeb.

(17:06):
Larry Emdur, also a first time Gold Logie nominee. Robert Irwin, again,
another first timer for I'm A celeb and then last
year's winner. Kruger is in the mix too. Now, it
is an interesting batch of people because you have a
whole lot of stuff going on. You've got previous winners
in Sonia Kruger and Asher Keddie. You've got previous multiple
nominees in Julia Morris. I think this is the third

(17:27):
year she's been nominated in a row without winning. And
then you do have these first timers in Andy, Larry
and Robert and Tony Armstrong. So it's a funny race
because at very first glance you're like, okay, maybe there's
a chance anyone can win. I you know, we wrote
about this earlier this week. I really believe that. It's
a three horse race between Larry and Tony Armstrong and

(17:49):
Robert Irwin. I think they each have kind of like
viable shots at going the distance. But what what I
think is so weird is that last year we saw, uh,
Sonia basically, I guess, perhaps surprisingly, beat Hamish off the
back of a very strong campaign from channel seven to
get her there. I think the same thing will happen

(18:10):
again this year with Larry. I mean, I'm curious to
get your guys thoughts. Obviously not being as enmeshed in
Logies culture. What was your kind of, like instant reaction
to seeing the list?

S3 (18:19):
Sorry, could I ask? And I had a little hand
raise before. Um, I just wanted some clarification please. On
are they do you win the Gold Logie based on
the performance of that year? You know, i.e. is Robert
Irwin going to get it based on I'm A celeb,
or do you take into consideration all their kind of
historic roles up to this moment?

S2 (18:39):
Well, so the Gold Logie will just be publicly voted.
So this one I guess you could make the argument
still remains like who can basically galvanize people that like
them the most to vote? And which is why the
biggest conversation that, like I'm seeing so far is I
feel like people have accepted that Tony is a worthy
nominee and definitely in with a shot. And then the
two other chances are, like Robert Irwin and Larry Emdur,

(19:00):
who represent two very like I mean, Larry has been
on TV for like 5000 years. He's hosted a million shows.
He currently hosts two daily shows in the Chase and
the Morning Show. And I guess people are like, he
makes sense. And then you've got Robert Irwin, like, you know,
we all love the Irwin family. They're, you know, held
a special place in like the Australian cultural landscape. But

(19:21):
like Robert Irwin hosted one season of I'm A celeb.
He did a pretty good job. Like, whatever, the ratings
weren't amazing. And yet he's like, in this gold race.
And not only in the gold race, he and Larry
are kind of like, according to the online bookies way
up there, it's like him, Tony and Larry are all
under like $4. They're like the favorites.

S1 (19:38):
And he's and he's also up against his co-host Julia Morris,
because I thought maybe they just needed to make sure
there's representation from across all the networks. I feel like
what's interesting about this is that this is one where
streaming hasn't really impacted the race, and I'm not quite
sure what the obvious streaming person would be in this,
but I mean, if Asher Keddie actually, no, I guess

(19:59):
Asher Keddie was in strife, which is a binge show,
but I'm sort of surprised that maybe there is like
a Heartbreak High or A Boy Swallows in this. Considering
how popular those shows have been, particularly for like a
younger audience, that might not be as plugged into some
of these. Others, like like Sonia Kruger. I think it's
interesting that Tony's nominated. I think it makes sense given

(20:20):
he keeps winning these these awards that are popularly voted on.
It's pretty amazing. He's not really been on television for
a long time to be a Gold Logie nominee, relatively
early in his TV career. It's quite an extraordinary, uh,
hat tip to him. I think you're right that it's
that it's Larry Robb and and Tony, though. That said,
I mean, the Logies love repeat winners. Like there's so

(20:44):
many examples where people win. Like there's the the 90s
are wild. Ray Martin won in 9394 and 95 and 96.
And then Lisa McCune won 97 9899 2000 like that
is the entire 90s. There were only two winners, Ray
Martin and Lisa McCune.

S2 (21:03):
Yeah, and what a pair. Yeah, but I mean, obviously
this won't shock you. Things are very different now than
they were in the 90s. And, you know, obviously that
was when you would literally buy your TV week magazine
and fill out the thing and fucking mail it in, like,
whereas now obviously it's online voting and but what I
think will I mean, I obviously can't speak for Logies organizers,
but I have previously worked at TV week and I

(21:23):
reckon they would be like praying that Larry Emdur wins,
because I think if Robert Irwin was to win, it
does like undermine the legitimacy and I guess like the
prestige around the Gold Logie. Like, you know, the reality
is the guy is like 20 something. He's been on
TV for two minutes and like, what does that say
about the award? If Robert Irwin was to win and be,

(21:45):
you know, declared the most popular person on Australian TV
when he's hosted one single season of I'm A celeb,
let alone someone should do a welfare check on Doctor
Chris Brown, who hosted the show for like, ten years.
Never got a nomination.

S3 (21:55):
What does it say? I think maybe it says that
they need to continue to revisit how they how they
judge these awards. I feel like, okay, I'm gonna go
with a dark horse. I reckon, if it's completely popular.
Voted Tony Armstrong. ABC viewers love him. A certain kind
of person loves Tony Armstrong, but they're not the type
of person who really cares about the Logies and they're
not going. Online to vote, not the ABC audience. Robert

(22:16):
Irwin big fan base, but I don't know.

S2 (22:19):
6 million.

S3 (22:19):
Instagram followers. Yeah. So he could activate his his fans
and they could vote. But I kind of feel like
maybe they're not that interested in the Logies either. Asher Keddie,
she's the sweet spot. I know she's won before, but repeat,
repeat winners. The people who love Asher Keddie also love
the Logies, and they are also the kind of person
who I reckon gets online and votes for their girl.

S1 (22:42):
I love how you did not even know how these
awards were decided five minutes ago, and you were so
authoritative in declaring, but you're right. I mean, there is
a latent Australian love for Asher Keddie. I, I think
the only thing I would say in response to that
is her show strife, like, wasn't like a huge hit
either critically or commercially. And I think I 100% agree

(23:04):
with you that the ABC audience who love Tony are
also the kinds of folk who traditionally probably don't take
the cues to vote. But this year, as we've discussed,
there are so many ABC shows nominated, and the ABC
is under so much scrutiny and pressure, including from people
like us about what it's doing, what its future is
that they I think if I was the ABC, I

(23:25):
would actually go all out. I would say, this is
our year where the commercial free to air network seemed
to be struggling a little bit. We've got so many nominations,
we've got our chance at a Gold Logie for the
first time. That isn't a joke campaign like Tom Gleeson.
We could actually win the gold. We could win like
30 Logies here, potentially. Let's actually mobilize our audience and
do it. That's what I would do if I was

(23:46):
the ABC, whether or not the audience responds, I'm not sure.
For that reason. I think ultimately Thomas is right that
Larry is probably in a really good spot because he's
got the combination of being someone who lots of Australians
know because he's been around for a long time. He's
generally well liked. He's got a bigger social following, though
not by much than Tony Armstrong, and seven can mobilize

(24:07):
behind him the way they did for Sonia Kruger last year.
So I think there's a lot of factors suggesting that
Larry might be able to take this one out.

S2 (24:15):
And also, I think, you know that the the people
who like love, you know, he's got 171,000 followers on
Instagram versus, you know, Robert Irwin's 6 million. That's absolutely
no contest. But the like people who love and follow
Larry are so committed like versus what? You know, Robert
Irwin's probably very youngish fan base. I don't know, even

(24:38):
if he puts out a few stories like, hey, vote
for me. Link in bio. I don't know if like,
the amount of traction he'll actually get off that. Whereas
I know like having also previously worked at the Morning
Show as a producer with Larry, I know what that
audience is like. They're used to engaging with the show.
They buy shit from advertorials. They constantly enter competitions to
get a cruise to Fiji. Like they will sit and

(25:00):
watch that show for three hours every day and text
in and spend money. And like that is a viewer
behavior that they're used to. So like and already it's
beginning like seven is going all out. Sonia is like
an afterthought this year. That's my opinion. Like all of
the seven talent has been Flogging Larry already. Like they
will be behind him. And you know, it's funny, like
I text you last night, Osmond to be like, fuck.

(25:22):
Like you should see like Larry's odds from them. Even
before when they announced, like he was in the mix,
his odds were, like, really high. And I should have
fucking got on him then. But I didn't cut this out.
If I can't talk about gambling. But now, like in
the last 24 hours, he has shortened so much. He's like,
he and Tony are the favourites with Robert just behind.
But he is.

S3 (25:40):
You wrote a story. I mean, it would probably.

S1 (25:42):
Shorten even further after people listen to this conversation. So
if you didn't put your money on, you're probably, yeah.

S3 (25:46):
I feel like you wrote a story saying he was
a favorite and then he became a favorite. I mean, I.

S2 (25:51):
Have long suspected that I have the ear of the nation,
and that was confirmation, which I've I've.

S1 (25:55):
Well, the ear of the nation or the ear of
the 14 people betting on the bookie awards.

S2 (26:00):
But yeah. Anyway, that's my tip. Play this back in
August when he wins and you guys can just, like,
give me a nice cheer.

S1 (26:07):
Look, I'm glad we had that conversation because we get
a little bit of feedback sometimes that, you know, we
talk about these big, uh, American shows and American films
and there's lots of interesting stuff happening in Australia. I
think that's like a fair shout. It's good to take
the time to do a bit of a temp check
on what is happening in Australian television, the good and
the things that maybe are being missed a bit. But

(26:28):
I'm really interested. I'm really interested to see how many
people engage with the Logies this year, given that they
are trying to encompass a wider range of shows and
a wider range of streaming platforms. And like we always
say about these awards, they're not the only thing that matters.
Absolutely not. But they are a reflection of how a
decent chunk of the community and the industry think about

(26:50):
how things are going right now. So it's worth talking about.

S2 (26:53):
And I think personally, like the ceremony will be in August,
it will be on seven. And I think I'm excited
to see Sam Pang back as host. Uh, he has
a lot of material to work with from a insane year, uh,
for all I mean, really, all of the major TV networks, um,
you know, culturally, socially and everything that's. Going on I

(27:13):
like yeah hopefully he's like got a red hot cold opener.

S3 (27:16):
Yeah. Then he deserves the Gold Logie too.

S2 (27:18):
Well actually he was I mean I hate to keep
talking about gambling. He was he was like in the
before the nominations were announced, he was in the mix
as a really short, odd, uh, and then he didn't
get a nomination. I mean.

S1 (27:29):
Amazingly, if he gets nominated for his performance hosting every year,
that would.

S2 (27:33):
Be. Well, this is another thing just quickly, uh, worth
mentioning lots of people don't know is that you have
to actually put yourself forward for the gold, which is
why initially people were like, oh my God, Hamish Blake snubbed.
But like I, I think I said this last year
I would get a tattoo of a Logie if I
was wrong. There's I guarantee he said don't put me
forward because like, I feel like last year the general
vibe from Hamish was like, I don't want to win

(27:54):
this again. The whole then Sonia did that weird acceptance
speech where she like, I don't know, kind of lit
him up. But then like, I think Hamish was like,
I don't want to be involved this year. So I
suspect he didn't put himself forward. And also then you've
now got Andy having a shot, and I'm sure Hamish
will like do a big campaign for him. So yeah,
interesting times.

S3 (28:09):
You need to get a tattoo of a Logie anyway. Yeah.

S1 (28:13):
I'm surprised you don't have a tattoo of a logo.

S2 (28:15):
Well, maybe. Okay, look, if Larry doesn't win, I'll get one. Yeah.

S1 (28:18):
I've never seen him this animated.

S3 (28:20):
I've never seen you know so much before.

S2 (28:23):
This is my fucking mastermind subject.

S3 (28:25):
I am, like, shocked.

S2 (28:27):
Me talking about the Logies on mastermind will finally get
me the Logie nomination. I've so long.

S1 (28:45):
All right. From your Rain Man. Subject to Mel's Rain Man.
Subject pop music, baby. I'm really keen to have a
pretty wide ranging discussion with you guys about what's going
on in music right now, because I think it is
utterly fascinating and it feels extremely, extremely significant. But before
we do that, I kind of think it's worth discussing
that Charli XCX Lorde situation first, because that's one we

(29:08):
haven't had time to get into. It became like a
big cultural moment last week, Mel, we spoke about the
Charli album brat with Meg a couple of weeks ago
and how that song Girl So Confusing was very likely
about Lorde. Can you talk us through a little bit
about what Charli was singing about and what happened last

(29:29):
week to get everyone so worked up?

S3 (29:31):
Yeah, this song, Girl So Confusing, is about a complicated
relationship with a female musician, and the public immediately thought
that Charli XCX was talking about Lorde because, you know,
she talks about we've got the same hair, we talk
about making music. People say we're alike, which is something
that's been said of both Lorde and Charli XCX, that
they like each other, and she talks about how strained

(29:53):
this relationship is and rife with miscommunications. And everyone started
speculating who it was about and then completely taking control
of the narrative. Charli XCX and Lorde decided to work
it out on the remix and released this fabulous remixed
version of Girl So Confusing, where they essentially speak to
their their relationship and their different confusions about it. One

(30:16):
of the things I found really interesting a we haven't
heard heaps from Lorde lately, she's kind of moved to London,
we know that, but hasn't been releasing music, has been
off social media, and she has this really kind of
vulnerable verse on it.

UU (30:27):
For the last couple years I've been at war in
my body. I tried to starve myself in it, and
then I gained all the weight back. I was trapped
in the hatred. And your life seems so awesome, I
never thought. My voice was in your head, girl.

S3 (30:43):
It's quite a very vulnerable verse, and it's great to
hear Lorde kind of back making music. Uh, but I think,
you know, this whole remix, I mean, obviously, I would
think that Lorde was in on it the whole time
and that she would have been across and this was planned,
that they would release this song together. Well, obviously you
can't just spontaneously make music like I think, but I

(31:06):
don't think that changes anything about it, that they planned it.

S2 (31:09):
I didn't think that that wasn't my first. I mean,
I'm probably more of a sucker, I don't know, what
do you think?

S1 (31:14):
I have a bit of intelligence on this one.

S4 (31:17):
So here it comes.

S1 (31:18):
Friend. Friend of the pod, Shaad D'Souza, who wrote that
Amazing Face magazine cover feature on Charli a few months
ago that I think I shouted out, um, obviously spent
a lot of time with Charlie. I think has gotten
to know Charlie quite well. Uh, at least the the
tension between the two of them is like 100% real. Um,
and that is something that has been plaguing, I guess, Charlie,

(31:41):
for a while. And I don't know whether the first
Lord heard about this track was when the album was released,
because what's interesting to remember as well is that Lorde
was very quick to go to the show and to
say how good it was. I have a feeling that
Charlie just wrote this song, didn't talk to Lord about it,
but maybe gave Lorde a heads up that this track

(32:04):
is coming. And then that's when the wheels started to
turn on this. So I guess it's a little bit
of both. It's like genuinely Charlie organically expressing her feelings
about something, and she's done that a bit on this record.
Like there's a track that everyone thinks is about Taylor
Swift and whatever. Um, and then Lorde, I think, came
up with her own idea to, hey, this would be
really interesting if we quote unquote worked it out on

(32:26):
the remix. It's a really fascinating thing because it seems
to have happened pretty quickly and pretty organically, and the
vulnerability that they both expose on this track is a
bit surprising. It's like almost even if there is an
element of musical cynicism because it helps boost, you know,
the album's placement in the charts and whatever, whatever. It's

(32:46):
just so raw and honest that that supersedes anything to
do with its success and how it's in the zeitgeist.
You have Lorde talking about, yeah, her body, about how
she feels about cancelling on on Charlie. It doesn't feel
cynical to me.

S3 (33:00):
No, no. And I me saying that they worked on
it together is not about cynicism. It's just the reality
of like, you mean.

S2 (33:07):
The actual execution and delivery of the.

S3 (33:09):
I don't think it makes it any less inauthentic that
they decided to do this and release this song. But
I completely agree with Oz. I think she probably gave
her the heads up as a courtesy. And then Lorde said, well,
why don't I feature on it? And what I now
want to see is a Taylor remix of sympathy as
a knife, which is the Charli XCX song about Taylor Swift.
So now I'm hoping Taylor's going to pop on.

S2 (33:30):
What I what we all really want to see is
Drake and Kendrick work it out on the remix. Yeah,
I did think this.

S4 (33:35):
Was no one.

S1 (33:36):
Wants to see either of those two things.

S4 (33:38):
Just for the record, but I did.

S2 (33:39):
Think I did think in the context of this year
that's been so dominated, um, musically by this whole, like,
you know, narrative around feuds and, and like the Drake
and Kendrick thing, which I think, like, just as an aside,
seems increasingly ridiculous, like with more distance, I don't know, like,
you know, I know Kendrick is the winner and he
had that big pop out show and stuff, but I
just the more I listened to those songs, I'm like,

(33:59):
I can't believe this happened. And anyway, um, but particularly
then you say something like this and it's such an
interesting way to like, approach, you know, the feud that's
become this construct in, in music these days. And particularly
I thought what was so great was, you know, we're
in this era, I think Pitchfork mentioned it of like
calling it detective pop, of which, you know, our Lord
and Savior Taylor Swift is kind of leading that where,

(34:20):
you know, you write these pop music songs and they're
full of Easter eggs, and your fans, like, lose their
minds trying to figure out what's going on. And this like,
seemed like that. And then instead of like, leaving us
all to speculate and, and like this, you know, churning
of ideas and negativity and oh, is it about this person?
It's about that person. Instead, they just, like, got on
a new remix of the song and, like, blew everyone
away in the nicest way possible. I thought it was
just like such a aside from the song being great and,

(34:43):
you know, a kind of reflection of why the album
is so good. It was in such an interesting and
smart way to like, nullify this, you know, story that
was brewing and also create a new moment for the album,
which is already dominating, you know, pop culture anyway. Yeah, totally.

S3 (34:57):
I feel like there's a real self-reflexiveness and self-awareness about
it because female pop stars are like historically, obviously pitted
up against each other. There can only be one like,
you know, Britney and Christina, Katy and Taylor. And so
I think that this is completely reclaiming that feud narrative. Um,
and this is about, you know, female pop driven reconciliation
and female pop stars building each other up, which is

(35:19):
extending beyond this song as well.

S1 (35:22):
Absolutely. And I think to to your point, Thomas, about
the detective pop of it, I think unless you were
like very frequent in the London club scene in the
past 12 to 18 months, you probably had no idea
that there was like this Charlie Lorde feud. So it
wasn't something that had been seeded already. And I think
we spoke about this when the album was first released.
I think unlike. Something like Tortured Poets Department. The album

(35:44):
sure has some biographical elements to it, but it works
just on a level of being a good album. It
doesn't need you to just pass everything through. Who is
this song about? Oh my God, I can't believe we're
finding out about this relationship and this breakup. I think
Tortured Poets kind of entirely rests on people caring a
lot about that stuff. I think the Charli record has
some of that stuff, but just is a really fun, brash, dancey,

(36:10):
kind of progressive pop album on its own without needing
deep knowledge or lore about what's going on in Charli's life.

S2 (36:17):
Yeah, and I think for me, that's what I liked
so much about it. Like, I think, you know, we
are in this funny era of, you know, like that
Detective Pop, but also it feels like lots of these
artists are going through this, like movement where they're like, okay,
the way to connect with the audience is to present
myself as that, really, you know, like, just like you
and like salt of the earth and really authentic and vulnerable.

(36:38):
And that's kind of the current trend. And I feel
like although there is lots of that in brat, it's
not like posturing to do that. It's very much just like,
this is my weird life, and these are the things
I do, and these are the anxieties I have and
all my different neuroses. But I don't feel like charli's
like really trying to make us convince that she's one
of us, I think.

S1 (36:57):
Yeah, that's a really good point, because the aw shucks
thing that Taylor does, it just always has more and
more recently felt hollow because she's not like us. Like,
you know, maybe she has some anxieties that we share. Like, maybe,
but she's not like us. I don't know how much
Charli is like us either, but when she talks about
her life and even on that track with Lorde, when

(37:19):
they're talking about the way they are misinterpreting each other
and the public messages they send versus how they feel
inwardly like that can apply to any human's relationship, like
that actually feels more relatable and more vulnerable than someone
getting on stage and saying, I get it. I was
once like a young teenage girl who was worried about
guys like you that feels a bit put on, whereas

(37:40):
the way that Charli and Lorde are doing it doesn't.

S3 (37:43):
Yeah, I think it's a spectrum, and I almost think, well,
it makes sense to compare them. I think their artistic
projects are very different. And you would put, like Charli
XCX and Chappell Roan at one end of the pop spectrum,
which is very avant garde pop, and Taylor at the
other end of the spectrum. So I guess I think

(38:05):
they're hitting different points intentionally. So I almost think, yeah,
I it makes sense to compare them. But really, I
think Charli and Chappell Rowan are the next development of pop,
because Taylor has dominated the landscape for so long. And
as we know, culture moves forward when there's a reaction against,
you know, what came before. So I think we're seeing

(38:25):
the future of pop versus kind of what we have
had or what has dominated for the last few years.

S1 (38:31):
Yeah, let's have that broader conversation, because I think, I
think the artists that you're talking about thriving, both because
of Taylor Swift and the work that she's done and
as a reaction against the sheer dominance of her sound
at the moment, too, I think this wave of artists
have a lot in common. So, Charli, you mentioned Chappell, Rohan,

(38:53):
Sabrina Carpenter, Tinashe. What's interesting about them is they've been
making music for a very long time, all of these artists,
but it's only now that they are starting to get
really big commercial success and charting in a big way.
Last year, Shaad D'Souza, who we mentioned, wrote a really
interesting piece for The New York Times examining what they
called the middle class pop star. And this is a

(39:14):
generation of artists, including all of those that I just mentioned,
who burst onto the scene maybe like a decade ago,
had a couple of successful hits. But then even though
they kept releasing albums and even albums that were really
critically well received, they never managed to get big hits.
They never managed to chart or sell out stadiums. They
were just kind of grinding away, making a living, waiting
for that wave that they could ride. The Charli is

(39:36):
a really good example of this. Last year her track Speedrive,
which was for the Barbie soundtrack, was actually her first
single to chart in the US in a decade, which
is kind of crazy. And obviously since then she's gone
on with all the success that brat has had. Chaperone.
Another example. She's been making music for seven years. She
was signed to a major label and then dropped. She
finally has a commercial hit with her recent single Good

(39:58):
Luck Babe. I think that single, plus her tour, plus
being an opener for Olivia Rodrigo, has helped grow her
fan base and her album that was actually released nine
months ago, Rise and Fall of a midwest Princess, is
charting now. I feel like we haven't really seen that before.
I think in some ways that's as impressive, if not
more impressive, than what Charli is doing because she's been grinding.

(40:20):
This record is not new, but now people are talking
about it, and all these outlets that didn't review at
nine months ago have been like, oh, this great album
came out. We should actually talk about it. For the record,
we did talk about it nine months ago. We did
interview chaperoned, didn't we, Mel? We sure.

S3 (40:34):
Did. And, uh, kind of she was not a big
deal then. Um, and I think, well, not as big
a deal. She is now, I think touring her touring
with Olivia Rodrigo as well, put her in front of
a whole lot of, um, key audience for her.

S1 (40:48):
And I guess the other one in that category is
Sabrina Carpenter, who, uh, was the Australian opener for Taylor
Swift and made the most of it with her fun
and cute little outros. She's released five albums over ten years,
but got her first top ten hit with espresso just
this year, followed up with please, please, please, which went
number one. That's pretty extraordinary. Uh, Tinashe has been making

(41:11):
music for a decade, is finally charting with her recent
single nasty. This is a really interesting moment, and I
don't want to discuss it all in the context of
Taylor Swift, because I think we talk about Taylor a lot,
but it's hard to not talk about like a generation
of female pop stars without talking about the big ones there.
And I agree with you, Mel, that they're not doing

(41:35):
the same things, which is, I think, why these guys
are finding so much success. Like I think Taylor did
two things. She managed to convince a generation of young
people post-Covid that going out and seeing live shows is
really fun and really exciting, and I think that has
probably helped kick start people's interest in going to see
Sabrina and Olivia and Chappell and this other generation, too.

(41:58):
And she's probably pushed this idea of fun. Wild shows
are a thing for young people to do, not just
sit at home on TikTok and stream music, but also
her sound. And I think this applies to like, Olivia
and Billie Eilish as well. So to broaden out those
kind of big three that have dominated pop for the
last few years, it's very ballady. It's very flat. That

(42:20):
kind of Jack Antonoff production that is that is dominated
a lot of the pop sound. It's not particularly dancey,
it's not particularly sexy, it's not particularly fun. And I
think people have clearly been craving that sense of, I
want to go and like, get sweaty and lose it
a little bit. And I think what Charli and Chappell
and even Sabrina have, even if it's not all in
the music, it is in the lyrics like it's a

(42:41):
bit sexier, it's a bit more raw, it's a bit
more kind of like intimate and yeah, maybe horny even.
I think that space has existed as a vacuum there,
and these guys have both benefited from like the, the tailwind,
if you will, that that Taylor has created and filled
that gap with a very different sound that used to

(43:02):
dominate pop, like the Britney Christina thing. And these guys
have found their new way of doing it. That's sort
of my take as to why they seem to be.
Achieving commercial success when they've just been grinding for such
a long time, because it's not like they came out
of nowhere. They've been working. It's more their huge reception
they're getting now. That is the interesting and noteworthy thing.

S4 (43:21):
Yeah.

S3 (43:21):
And I think actually Charli Xcx's album named brat kind
of puts its finger on what these singers that we're
talking about are doing. There's kind of a revelry in
the brattiness. There's a funniness, a theatricality, a nastiness to
it all in a good way. And I do think
that that is a reaction against, you know, what we

(43:41):
have seen as before, they're owning the Brattiness. And that's
why a lot of these songs are so fun and
they're so delightful.

S2 (43:49):
Yeah. I feel like with, like, Sabrina Carpenter, she, she
has that kind of more like All-American, like brattiness, but like,
it's so all of her like her lyrics and her even, like,
you know, people obviously lost their minds over the video
with Barry Keoghan, but like, the whole way that she's
been marketed basically since that eras tour, which like, I
guess really exploded her, it just feels like, you know,
that she doesn't give a fuck. And so therefore you're

(44:11):
like drawn to that.

S3 (44:12):
Yeah, I kind of my only thought is, you know,
I'm a fan of Sabrina. Had to get there for
the nonsense outro at the Swift concert. My only thought
is maybe Sabrina is a bit out of her league
in this conversation. Yes, she kind of is celebrating the brattiness,
but I do think she is more of your standard
pop star, not only in her physicality, but that she

(44:32):
came through that Disney network. She was a Disney child star.
She's Jack Antonoff produced. Please, please, please is a very
catchy song.

S2 (44:41):
It's also like, you know, we're getting fed it guerrilla
marketing style every single.

S3 (44:45):
Yeah. And I don't think that that I think that
song needed Barry in the film clip. Like, I think
that song's pretty lucky it had such a good film clip,
because I don't think it's like a pretty particularly interesting song,
as catchy as it is. So I would differentiate. I'd
probably put her in a slightly different category to Billie
Eilish and Charli XCX and Chapel Rohan. Like, I think

(45:05):
she's maybe, maybe she's the mid-ground there.

S1 (45:08):
Yeah, I think, I think that's that's fair. I mean,
I also don't really love please, please, please, but I
really like espresso and I kind of think that she's
trained in that Disney world. But for her to just
keep pushing and pushing and pushing when so many others
would have and have given up speaks to something in
her kind of character tenaciousness her desire to just like,
make it work. And I think espresso suggests a self-awareness,

(45:33):
a self-irony, a humor that that does make her a
little bit different to someone as like maybe earnest as
Billie and her music like that track, like famously like
that's that's me espresso. That's the most memorable lyric of
the year. People love it. You know, I'm working late
because I'm a singer. Switched up like Nintendo. Like there's
a fun to her that I think has helped propel

(45:54):
her and I think makes her. I think Mid-ground is
a good way of putting it. Like there's an aesthetic
that is familiar, if you like the more kind of
staid pop stuff, and then there is a knowingness that
makes it feel a bit more exciting. And yeah.

S4 (46:05):
I totally agree.

S3 (46:06):
Probably put Olivia Rodrigo a bit in that category as well.

S2 (46:09):
Oseman I did want to ask. Um, obviously Chappell Roan's
having a big moment. Uh, how do you feel about
the fact that she went on tour in the US
and Canada with the great Vance Joy in 2017? And
how much of that do you attribute to her current moment?

S1 (46:24):
Um, probably not a lot considering taking another.

S4 (46:27):
Seven years to.

S1 (46:29):
To make it. Um, I was like late to, to Chappell.
I know that we had that profile on her last year,
but I only really started listening to to that record
in the last couple of weeks. I really like it.
It's really interesting. I thought it would sound more like, uh,
good Luck babe, which I kind of enjoy, but sort
of feels like a Kate Bush impersonation to me, whereas
I think the album is, like really fun. That opening track,

(46:52):
Femi Nomenon, is one of the best opening tracks I've
ever heard. And again, even though I wouldn't think about
it from her aesthetic and from that song from the
single Good Luck Babe. But it's dancier. There's like a
beat or there's a drive to it. And again, I
think that is reminding us of, you know, like Lorde's
Melodrama was one of the last really big dancey pop records.
Dua Lipa's Future Nostalgia, another really good dancey pop record.

(47:15):
And in the four years since, we haven't really had
something with big, fun, dancey hits. I mean, Dua Lipa's
most recent album didn't really hit. I think, like, there
was a sound people wanted to engage with, and they
were hoping it would come from some of these artists
and it didn't. So they filled that gap with these others,
and I kind of hope that's more the direction we

(47:35):
go for with, with more of the just. It sounds
really basic to say, but some more club dance themed pop.
Bringing that back, bringing that early 2000 vibe back. I
think we've had enough of the guitars and the ballads,
and I think particularly because hip hop is in such
a state of the doldrums at the moment, and it's like,
if it's going to be country and pop, can the

(47:57):
pop at least be something that I want to, you know,
have fun to? It's going to.

S2 (48:01):
Be funny, like in the context of all this and
obviously this new guard and then, you know like kind
of Taylor overseeing everything. And then July 11th we get
the new Katy Perry record, which has already had. Like
a kind of weird reception, which I think you can
actually look at as to what people you know are
thinking about pop music right now. Because like, you've got
Katy Perry, who was one of those like, you know,

(48:22):
like back in the day, it was like her and
Taylor and, you know, they kind of like dominated the landscape.
She hasn't really released a record for ages. I think
it's still untitled. People are calling it Cp6. Um, I
think she's been working with Doctor Luke to producer who,
you know, famously had that whole situation with Kesha. Um, but, like. Yeah. What? Like,
where does someone like a Katy Perry then enter into

(48:43):
the landscape, having kind of been out of the game
and perhaps I feel like the general vibe on her
is a bit like, uh, Katy Perry like, yeah.

S3 (48:50):
I think what people have heard from the kind of
first single as well is not boding well. It's already
become a bit of a joke. I feel like the
brattiness that we're talking about with these, the new current crop,
the self-awareness, is not there in kind of Katy Perry's.
And it's a feminism that is maybe not as nuanced
as what these women are exploring in their in their,

(49:13):
their music. You know, it is very even raw. Like,
really what we've heard of the new single is kind
of like the song raw. It's we are strong, you know,
it's almost like a he was a Helen. Uh, Helen
Reddy was strong. Strong. We are invincible. Like that's what
she's doing. But many years later. So I think it's
not gonna land particularly. Well, not that we've heard the album,

(49:35):
but from what we have heard, it's not going to
land particularly well in this context.

S4 (49:40):
Yeah.

S1 (49:40):
It's so interesting the way that like, contexts that music's
received and are created because we've been talking about these artists,
but there's there's so many other artists that I feel
like have been trying to play in this space for
a while, and they've released amazing music and it's done well,
but maybe, like, not popped off in the way that
some of this stuff has. I think about even Troye Sivan. Right?
Like rush and my mum, these are great songs who

(50:01):
they did really well. They got good receptions, but I
almost feel like if rush dropped now, while everyone is
like just looking for that kind of club pop music,
it would go ballistic. And I mean, he's touring with
Charli XCX, so maybe he will end up with like
the kind of massive success that I think he deserves.
Can you.

S2 (50:18):
Imagine how loose those shows will.

S1 (50:19):
Be? Yeah, they're going to be a lot of fun.
The other, the other one I've been thinking about is
Carly Rae Jepsen, who again in that middle class pop
tier has just been releasing some of the best pop
music ever. None of it charts, really, but she's great,
and I hope that she can find a way to
ride this wave to.

S2 (50:34):
Ever since I first became friends with Oseman, I've never
met a greater Carly Rae Jepsen. He posts about her
like once a week being like, guys don't sleep on
the new Carly Rae Jepsen track. Everyone's like, man, like
Call Me maybe, I don't know. Yeah, I.

S3 (50:45):
Don't think I've ever met a like someone who has
ever spoken about her to.

S4 (50:48):
Me. She is your John Mayer. Yeah, yeah.

S1 (50:52):
And I will happily own that because she's fucking awesome
and has been slept on for like, the last ten years.

S4 (50:58):
I'm going to go back and.

S3 (50:58):
Revisit and we'll pick let's follow up next week because
I'm going to go on the deep dive.

S1 (51:02):
Yeah. Emotion that's my Impress Your friends.

S2 (51:04):
I know I wasn't there obviously for the Charli XCX
chat and you may have discussed this. So like just
let me know. But I mean it's funny because the
her album cover is having very much a like cool
book Instagram moment like that is. Did you discuss it
at length?

S3 (51:19):
No we didn't.

S1 (51:20):
No we didn't, we didn't. But she's made she's created
a website where you can kind of generate, you know,
the Bratz style iconography and font and create your memes.
And it's everywhere right now, even like to the point where,
like political parties are using it, which has made it
a bit cringe. Yeah.

S2 (51:33):
And like so many people on social media have changed
their like, you know, their Instagram picture to just like
the lime green and their name. It's like such a
genius bit of marketing. And I feel like I think
I read somewhere that previously she hadn't really tapped into
her record label's marketing resources. And this is the first
album where she, like, let them really into the process.
And I mean, maybe a good shout in retrospect, because
I feel like, as simple as it is that the

(51:55):
shocking lime green and just the one word, it's like,
you know, when people do, including us, our pop culture
roundups for the year that the brat cover is like
one of the images of the year completely dominates.

S3 (52:06):
Did you see that very funny thing about how for
the promo for her, um, for her tour, her promo
poster is like made to look like a little what
might be call it a small bag. Um. Of what? Well,
you could fill it with whatever you want, but the
Drug Administration board in the UK took that. It was
a suggestion that you might take some party drugs to
the Charli XCX. So she redid the promo with a

(52:27):
little sandwich in the bag. Um, is.

S4 (52:30):
It was so good. That's really funny. Yeah.

S1 (52:32):
That's the kind of marketing you can't buy when like,
the government's like, this is too fun, you know, tone
it down. Um, all right. Before we ran out the
episode with my conversation with Austin, we have to do
our Impress Your Friends segment where we share something we
listen to, watched, read, or consumed in the world of culture.
Mine is a podcast, a fellow podcast on our network

(52:56):
produced by our old friend, the wonderful Ruby Schwartz. Uh,
it's a podcast called Trial by Water. Uh, it's hosted
by investigative journalist Michael Bachelard. And it is about the, uh,
Robert Farquharson. Conviction. He was convicted of killing his three
children on Father's Day in 2005 by driving them into

(53:16):
a dam. It's one of Melbourne's biggest kind of like
recent crime stories, and he's been convicted and found guilty,
I think twice by juries. Now, uh, Michael Bachelard is
looking at that case and looking at recent developments in technology.
He's unearthed some new evidence and suggesting that perhaps there's
more to this case than initially meets the eye. When

(53:38):
you consider what's gone on in the last couple of decades.
And I kind of want to give too much away
because it is just a really fascinating thing to listen.
There's a couple of episodes to go. It's one of
the best true crime podcasts I've heard. Maybe my favorite
true crime podcast coming out of Australia. Couldn't recommend it.
More trial by water. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

S2 (53:58):
Yes, I am currently up to date. I listened to
a lot of them when I was, um, overseas recently
came back from New York. Not sure if you guys know,
but it's it's amazing. And also it's so good hearing
Ruby's voice. Like occasionally they do that like, you know,
when they're traveling.

S1 (54:09):
I know I'm like the Leo guy pointing when it's
like I'm with my producer, Ruby. I'm like, ah.

S2 (54:13):
I know, I know, we miss you, Ruby. Ah, but yes,
that is great. And I guess, uh, a natural segue.
Mine is also a podcast this week. Uh, which is odd.
There you go. Um, I feel like we're really, you know,
if you like podcasts where it's just friends talking like this, uh,
then you will love the new podcast where everybody knows
your Name with Ted Danson and Woody Harrelson. So, like,
it's kind of if you're a fan of Smartless, which

(54:34):
I know, you know, people absolutely mad for, I find
this one really funny. Um, obviously, you know, these guys
were friends and co-stars on cheers, but it's not like
a cheers nostalgia pod. It's basically just the two of them. Um,
it's actually officially called Where Everybody Knows Your Name with
Ted Danson and sometimes Woody Harrelson, because some episodes they
just can't find him, which is like the.

S4 (54:54):
Most Woody Harrelson thing of.

S2 (54:55):
All time. But basically, uh, you know, it's your classic like,
they sit down, they catch up for a bit, and
then each week they have a special guest. Um, the
guests are amazing Eric Andre, Will Arnett, Kristen Bell, Jane Fonda. Like, there's,
you know, the kind of roll call of Hollywood stars
that they're obviously all friends with. Um, but, yeah, I've
always been a big fan of those, like, kind of
like talky podcasts where you get to see these really
famous people in a context where they're all, you know, obviously,

(55:17):
just like long time friends chatting about their careers. So, yeah, uh,
once you've listened to every single episode of The Drop
and then Trial by Water, you are allowed to listen
to Where Everybody Knows Your Name with Ted Danson and
Woody Harrelson.

S3 (55:28):
I will definitely take that up. I quite like Smartless,
except I feel like when they have a guest who
isn't funny, it's just quite a painful listen.

S4 (55:36):
Yeah, I.

S2 (55:36):
Know it can be, but Smartless has like, it's, you know,
it's become this like huge monolith now and they're just
so dominant. Um, but yeah, I really like Smartless. And
this is in the same space.

S3 (55:45):
Oh, great. I will listen to that. And then a
surprise for me, I've got, I've got a book for
this week. Um, this one was a kind of random
find because I was didn't have a book to take
home with me, and I didn't want to be alone
with my with my thoughts. So I just, I just
picked this one up from my desk, which is kind
of fun when you do that, right?

S4 (56:03):
When you I mean, to be fair, you have 1000
books on.

S2 (56:04):
Your desk, so.

S4 (56:05):
I know, but usually I.

S3 (56:06):
Like, have a plan for the next book I'll read.
And then I was just like, oh, I'll give this
one a go. It's called hard by a great Forest.
It's by Leo Badiashile. It's a really funny first book.
It's about, um, a young man who leaves his home
in Georgia with his brother and dad during Russia's occupation
of South Ossetia. And then later on, he goes back

(56:26):
to try and find his family, who have also gone
back to try to resolve some stuff in their family past. Um,
it's a really great read, which is all about the
country's troubled past, the traumas of war, home, family, belonging,
all of those things, but really funny. And essentially it
is a journey story. There's a quest that he embarks on. Um,
and also, I have not read much fiction about Georgia

(56:49):
or set in Georgia. So, um, I have been annoying
everyone with fun facts about Georgia lately, but I think
a good read. I think you would really.

S4 (56:56):
Like it too.

S1 (56:56):
What's your funniest, um, Georgia fact?

S3 (56:59):
Uh, funny, feels wrong or.

S4 (57:02):
Just.

S3 (57:03):
A lot of war?

S4 (57:03):
They're okay. They've been through a lot.

S1 (57:05):
I think they invented wine. The Georgians. Yes.

S3 (57:07):
That actually. And there's quite a bit about the significance
of wine. So I did actually say to my partner
that we should get some Georgian wine over the weekend to.

S4 (57:15):
It's like a guilt thing.

S3 (57:16):
Yeah. When I read, I go all in.

S1 (57:17):
That's great. Well, to end the show, we have my
conversation with Austin Butler, who stars in the Bikeriders. It
depicts the rise and fall of an outlaw motorcycle club
in America in the 1960s. The film also features Jodie Comer,
Tom Hardy and Mike Feist from challenges. Austin and I
spoke just after the film's Australian premiere at the Sydney
Film Festival. The film is out next week on July 4th.

(57:40):
Go watch it in the cinema. I hope you enjoy
my conversation with Austin. Hey, Austin, thanks so much for
joining me on the show today.

S5 (57:55):
It's my pleasure.

S1 (57:57):
Uh, we're chatting just the morning after you attended the
Sydney Film Festival premiere of The Bike Riders. How are
you finding Sydney so far?

S5 (58:06):
Well, I love Sydney. I've spent a lot of time
here and I love it here. Last night was really wet.
I don't know if you. You saw it there last night,
but I was. Yeah.

S1 (58:15):
It's like a rain bomb.

S5 (58:16):
Apparently by the time that by the time I was
doing interviews on the carpet, I was, uh, it was,
it was as though I jumped in a swimming pool.

S1 (58:29):
I saw the photos. You looked great. Oh. Thank you.
You looked really good. Um, over the last couple of years, Austin,
you've been in some incredibly big productions. I mean, just
this year. Dune part two, Masters of the air. Before that, Elvis,
which you obviously nominated for an Oscar in the Bike Riders,
feels like a much more intimate film, a bit less

(58:50):
flashy than some of those bigger scale productions. Can you
tell me a little bit about your path to getting
involved with this film? What was it that attracted you
to this role?

S5 (58:59):
Well, I mean, that's one of the elements of it
is it felt different from some of the other things
I've been doing. It was really Jeff Nichols. I've been
a massive fan of his for a long time. Uh,
I remember years ago doing a Jeff Nichols marathon at
my house, just watching all of it.

S1 (59:16):
Oh, wow.

S5 (59:17):
And thinking, oh, if I could ever work with that guy,
that would be incredible. So when his script came across
my doorstep and I, uh, and I saw his name
on it, and I. And then I read it. And
this whole world, uh, I was a fan of Danny
Lyons photographs and his book.

S1 (59:35):
Um.

S5 (59:36):
And then also this character, I mean. Really, you know,
I mean, to be completely straightforward. It was just one
of the coolest characters I'd ever read, and I immediately
was just drawn to him. And I thought, how how
exciting that would be to embody him for for the

(59:56):
duration of filming.

S1 (59:59):
Yeah, I'm interested in the characterization because you mentioned dandelion.
The source material for the bike riders is this photo
book that that he, that he released and he's actually
played in the movie by Mike Feist. The characters in
the Bike Riders are at least a lot of them
are real people. Is Benny the character you played based
on one particular person, or is this a kind of

(01:00:19):
amalgam or a collage of different people involved at the
club at the time?

S5 (01:00:23):
Yeah, no, he's based he's he's based on a real person. And, uh,
even like that, the. You know, the motorcycle police chase. That's.
There's a real article, you know. Oh, wow.

S1 (01:00:38):
That was a real article you're reading out there. Reading out. That's.

S5 (01:00:40):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it really like the amount of
of stoplights or whatever that he went through and, um,
and but the interesting thing about him is he was
one of the few people in the club that Danny
never was able to interview. So there's no interview with him.
You learn about him through what Cathy says about him.

(01:01:01):
You learn about him through what other people say about him.
The other thing is, you never see his face in
the book. You see him from behind on a motorcycle.
You see him leaning over a pool table. So he's
this enigma, he's this mystery. And, um, and then so
I think as Jeff was crafting the story, he the
first things that he said to me were, he said,

(01:01:22):
I see Benny as an empty glass that everybody wants
to fill with their own expectations. And and they want
to put responsibilities on him, but he can't be filled. And, um,
and so yeah. So that that was it was fascinating
to explore somebody who was such an enigma. And so.

S1 (01:01:44):
So how did you go about trying to fill out
that character? It sounds like the lines are kind of
drawn around him based on what we know from the book,
from what, you know, the role that he played within
that club, the movie. I think like basically every piece
of culture about motorcycle clubs after the 50s, it owes
some of its look and feel to the wild ones.
And one of the most iconic scenes is sort of

(01:02:04):
mentioned and explicitly shown in the movie.

S5 (01:02:07):
Yeah. What do you got?

S1 (01:02:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, getting to see you and Tom
Hardy do that in the same 24 hours. Very exciting
for me. Um, is that is that kind of stuff
James Dean, is that a reference point or were you
drawing on something different as well?

S5 (01:02:21):
I mean, I obviously I've seen those films. I rewatched
them when I was making this, uh, just to see
if anything sparked my imagination, you know, and um, and
also just to sort of study some of the filmmaking
of Easy Rider or, you know, The Loveless is another
one of my favorite films. And seeing Willem Dafoe just

(01:02:44):
be one of the coolest people ever on a motorcycle. And.

S1 (01:02:46):
Yeah, yeah.

S5 (01:02:47):
I, uh, I so yeah, I watched all that, but
I felt that for me, it was, it was getting
together with people who their entire lives is motorcycles. And
that's all they talk about. It's all they think about,
and they know them inside and out. And so that's
that's what I wanted to get in the headspace of.

(01:03:08):
I wanted to get real grease under my fingernails, you know,
and to learn how to take apart a motorcycle and
feel that it was an extension of me in some way. Um,
so I was fortunate to all the, all the bikers
who let me into their world.

S1 (01:03:22):
That's fascinating. Did you have much did you have much
of a relationship with motorcycles prior to getting involved in
this film?

S5 (01:03:28):
I had a bit because my dad rode and my
grandfather rode, um, but nothing like this.

S1 (01:03:35):
Yeah, I'd say my granddad used to ride triumphs in
the 50s, and when I got old enough, I decided
I wanted to to do the same thing. Yeah.

S5 (01:03:42):
That's when they shifted on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
They switched it over in the 70s, I think.

S1 (01:03:47):
Totally. It was one of the things I'm keen to
talk to you about the themes of the movie, but
it was I know this is not necessarily the point,
but at the end of the film, I was just like,
God damn, did a lot of that look really cool? Like,
why aren't I in a motorcycle club?

S5 (01:03:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that was genuinely one of the
draws of the film for me. I just it was
just so damn cool, you know?

S1 (01:04:08):
And did you get to do I know that, like,
whether it's through insurance or just the way that films
are made, a lot of things are done on rigs
and stuff. But did you actually get to get on
a bike and have some fun in the making of
the film?

S5 (01:04:20):
Yeah, yeah. I mean, besides a few close ups, when
Jody's on the bike, it's all me riding that motorcycle.

S1 (01:04:29):
Oh, that's awesome.

S5 (01:04:29):
Without a helmet on, you know what I mean? It's
I don't know how we got the film insured, necessarily.

S1 (01:04:35):
It's kind of a miracle.

S5 (01:04:36):
But, uh. But. Yeah, that's why I trained so much
before I trained for many months. So that way it was.
It was real, you know?

S1 (01:04:45):
That's awesome. So over the course of the film, we
kind of track this club. It starts out basically kind
of like a community center for this group of men
who are missing something. Or maybe they're feeling a bit
alienated or alone, or they've been rejected by these other institutions.
Then things get a bit more sinister, as the impacts
of Vietnam as an example, are felt on American society.

(01:05:07):
What do you think it is about that period in America,
that transition from the 60s to the 70s, that makes
it such an interesting frame for storytelling like this?

S5 (01:05:18):
Well, I think it's that it's it's, you know, it's
it's that fascinating thing with history how you have, you know,
you have the chaos of World War Two. And then
out of that comes this utopian, this, this facade of
utopian 1950s white picket fence, um, that. That underneath. You know,

(01:05:42):
there's still trauma and and relationships that are falling apart
and all of that. But there you know, it's being
worn in this sort of Stepford Wives way. And then
and then the counterculture of the 60s and, um. The
rebellion against that, you know, is is the pendulum swinging

(01:06:06):
in the opposite direction and then how that leads way
to chaos at times and, and destruction and, and like
you say, I mean, you have Vietnam and and all the,
the horrors of that and the trauma of that time

(01:06:26):
and then, uh. And then these soldiers coming back to
the States and and some of them not being treated well.
And and the insanity of that time and how tricky
that time was and and the also also the addictions
shifting from alcohol, say, to heroin, you know, and what

(01:06:50):
that also does. Um, and uh, and so it's a
really volatile time, um, and, and so that that sort
of the chaos of that I think is, uh, is,
is quite dramatic. So I think, you know, that time period,
the films of that time period, I think, really mirror that.

S1 (01:07:15):
Um, I was also struck by, I mean, and I'm
interested if you if you think that I'm like over
reading or over interpreting the movie, feel free to push
back on this. But when I was watching it, I
felt there was this contemporary social resonance as well. These ideas.
So much of our political conversation is around the anxieties
of lonely, frustrated, maybe like angry men, their attempts to

(01:07:36):
seek out some sort of catharsis and meaning similar to
previous periods we've lived through. Do you think the kinds
of characters that we see in the bike Riders, like
we're still missing something as a society for these kinds
of people to give them some more meaning?

S6 (01:07:52):
You know. I think.

S5 (01:07:56):
I think that human nature is. There's a there's a
universal element in human nature. And, um, and so I
think that's why, uh, regardless of time or place, you're
going to have certain themes of, of the human condition. Um,
so I suppose that that would be accurate.

S1 (01:08:19):
I hadn't really thought about it until I was talking
to you, but we're talking about a movie that is
like a bit of a period piece. It's kind of
been what you've done a lot of lately. Like, I mean,
Elvis is a movie set in another period, Masters of
the air, I mean, Dune Part two, obviously. Like, not
necessarily the 1950s.

S5 (01:08:36):
I made up for it by going way in the
future with that one. Just like bring the average down. Yeah.

S1 (01:08:42):
It averages out somewhere in like 22,100 or something like that. Yeah. Um,
are you thinking about are you curious about doing something
that feels more contemporary, or are you happy exploring these
different times and worlds for the moment? Yeah.

S6 (01:08:56):
You know, it wasn't it wasn't intentional, really.

S5 (01:08:59):
It's just these are the characters and filmmakers and stories
that were the most compelling, um, at the time. Uh, and, uh,
but I do. I always want.

S6 (01:09:12):
To.

S5 (01:09:13):
Explore new things and and challenge myself in different ways. And, uh, yeah,
the next two films that I'm doing are more are
more modern. So. Yeah.

S1 (01:09:24):
Yeah. Exciting. Um, one of my favorite up and coming
Australian actors has a bit of screen time in this movie.
Toby Wallace I'm not sure if you guys are actually
in scenes together, but did you did you get to
get to know Toby at all?

S5 (01:09:37):
Well, yeah, we got to hang out and we rode
motorcycles together, and, um, I love Toby. I just I
spoke to him. We spoke this morning. Um, but I, uh. Yeah, I, um.
I Loved Him and Baby Teeth, which I thought was
incredible and such.

S1 (01:09:55):
A good film.

S5 (01:09:55):
We have a lot of mutual friends, and so I
was looking forward to meeting him and, and and yeah,
we don't really have scenes together, I don't think. But
we we did we got to hang out and, uh,
I really fond memories of of looking over him. We
late at night we rode motorcycles over this bridge in
Cincinnati and, uh, and we just were racing over this

(01:10:18):
bridge together, and that was that was a good memory
that I have.

S1 (01:10:21):
That's awesome. One of my favorite things about the bike
riders is like this multi-generational, that guy sort of thing
going on. You know, Jeff Nichols loves working with Michael Shannon.
He pops up in this in an awesome role. You
know someone, you're there, you've got another generation coming through.
It was really cool to just see all this talent
on screen at the same time. That's so.

S5 (01:10:38):
Cool. Yeah.

S1 (01:10:40):
Um, in terms of, um, movies, just to question sort
of a bit sideways to the bike rider specifically, there's
a lot of conversation this year about the state of
the box office and where things are going. I mean,
June again is a really big, massive success, but there's
been a couple of films that probably didn't hit the
way people were expecting. A lot of audiences seem more
keen to wait for things to hit streaming for whatever reason.

(01:11:04):
Is there something you think about, like you were at
all worried about the trajectory of cinemas? And if audiences
are going to go and see these things and that
sort of environment?

S5 (01:11:13):
It's something I think about a lot. I was speaking
about it at dinner last night and just, uh.

S6 (01:11:20):
It.

S5 (01:11:22):
Yeah, I, I love the experience personally of going to
the movies. I love it deeply and I, I have
such a nostalgia of going with my parents as a
kid and the smell of popcorn and sitting down and
the lights, the lights going down and communing with strangers
and immersing yourself in this film. And I also love

(01:11:43):
the experience of putting your phone away and actually being
present for the duration of a film. And, um, and
so I think there's nothing like that where you don't
have distractions and you're just, you're allowing yourself to, to
disappear for a bit into this other world. And, um,
but like you say, it is it is it definitely.

(01:12:06):
You notice a difference in, in, uh. And what gets
people to to actually go out to the theater now.
And I hope that I hope the more more people well,
I just hope it stays alive. You know, I really
I love the experience so much and I know so
many people do and um, and yeah, so I hope

(01:12:28):
I hope it really, you know. And like, I don't
even know what it is. I kind of wanted to
say for a second, like, I hope it has a
resurgence or like something I think people are still for
the right for certain films. People still are really gone.
I mean, look at Barbie and Oppenheimer and. Absolutely. And
Dune was that was amazing to see everybody come out

(01:12:51):
for that. And but you never know. And uh, and
so yeah, I hope people are really come out I. Yeah.
What do you.

S1 (01:13:01):
Think uh man I agree. I mean Barbie and Oppenheimer,
it feels like got people excited and then I don't
know whether it was the combination of the strikes or
just like, you know, the economy or whatever it is
going on. And a couple of things being shifted out
of schedule. But I think it would be so sad
if we didn't have that collective experience to meet. Going
to the films with one another is great. I mean,
I think the bike riders, you can watch that at home,

(01:13:23):
but watching that, hearing that sound, that's not being distracted,
I think, like you said, putting your phone away is
such an important part of what this art form is about. Yeah,
it's important.

S5 (01:13:33):
Part of being human as well. It's like there's something
in I always think about because there's always these questions of,
of like is what's what's the sort of meaning behind,
you know, how you spend your time and whatnot. And
I think of how, you know, there's something in the
human condition where we've been telling stories around campfire since
the dawn of time. And, uh, and so to have

(01:13:55):
that experience where you're not just constantly being distracted by
a seven second video and going on to the next
thing and actually, you know, taking in a story, I
think is, is something that speaks to the soul in
some way.

S1 (01:14:09):
Uh, Austin, thank you so much for your time. That's
a perfect note to end on. Thank you. Appreciate it man.

S5 (01:14:14):
Thank you for your time.

S1 (01:14:20):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!

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