How Netflix created 2024's biggest TV controversy, plus our new favourite comedy

As Baby Reindeer remains one of the most-watched shows globally, Mel and Osman discuss the consequences of drawing on real-life experiences for television, the “real” Martha’s interview with Piers Morgan and why audiences are obsessed with sleuthing. 

They also discuss Donald Trump’s attempt at film podcasting, the Beyonce led takeover of the country charts and the aftermath of the Drake-Kendrick beef.

Finally, they review Such Brave Girls and reveal why it might prove to be the year's best new comedy show.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri. Hello, Thomas. Mel,
as you know, is out of action this week. He's away.
He's in a remote location on the set of an
exciting upcoming movie that we'll get to hear about down

(00:30):
the track, but it's just you and I holding it
down together. How are you doing? How are you feeling
about that?

S2 (00:34):
I'm doing good, I believe. Yesterday he gave me an update.
He said he was going to be swimming with crocodiles,
which I thought didn't sound safe.

S1 (00:42):
He texted me that as well. We sort of probably
giving away the location he is at by saying that, um,
and I don't know if he meant. Because then we
got a video from him this morning where he had,
you know, when you go on those trips on a
boat and they put the meat on a stick, I
don't think he's getting in that river, is he? He's
not swimming with the croc.

S2 (00:58):
Had questions. I said, are you confused? Do you mean
you're going swimming with dolphins? But, um, he seemed adamant
that he was going to be with the crocodiles. Uh.

S1 (01:07):
Well, then this might be, uh, we might never have
him back on the podcast. This could be the future
of the podcast, uh, after Thomas is eaten by a croc.

S2 (01:14):
But what a way to go. If anyone's going to
go out in such a big way, it's going to
be Thomas Mitchell.

S1 (01:21):
You were telling me just before we, uh, started recording that, um,
you're a big fan of a surprising show you've been watching.
No one that I would have expected from you. Jeremy
Clarkson's latest series, Clarkson's Farm. You just love the fact
that he's striking a blow against woke culture.

S2 (01:39):
Look, I have to. And I caveat this with I
don't read his column. I didn't watch Top Gear. I'm
not super across Jeremy Clarkson public phenomenon. I've just come
to him really in this show. And I've always liked
shows about farming. Like I like River cottage as well,
and all it is is watching a man who can't
farm try to farm. And I actually think it's doing

(02:00):
quite good public service, like it is shining a light
on on the plight of farmers and how difficult an
industry it is. And the importance of it. And I
think he actually comes across quite well. And I mean,
I guess if you're kind of more aware of his
persona beyond the farm, it might be harder to like him.
But I find him quite, quite charismatic and fun to watch.

(02:22):
And it's actually all the supporting cast in it as
well is really good. Um, all the locals who who feature.
Do you watch it?

S1 (02:27):
No, I've never seen it. But I do hear people
of all kinds of backgrounds and views enjoy this show.
I kind of willing to take your word for it.
I did like Top Gear, like my dad loved Top Gear,
so we watched a lot of Top Gear when I
was growing up, and I always found him, you know,
a little bit like acerbic and a bit annoying, but
he's pretty good, like TV presence, and I just don't

(02:49):
read his columns in, you know, the Times or the
Daily Mail, whatever he writes where he just sort of
has a go at issues of the day. So yeah,
if I can just like put that to the side
and just watch this man, as you say, try to
what is he farming? He's like a hobby farm. Or
is this like a large scale agricultural project?

S2 (03:07):
Yeah, large scale agriculture. Oh, really?

S1 (03:09):
It's like a big farm he's doing.

S2 (03:10):
Yeah, yeah. There are all kinds of, um, crops. They.
They're having problems with their rape seeds. Don't plant those
very temperamental barley. Wheat. They've got pigs. I've learned so
much about pigs, gestations and pregnancies like, you know, I
feel like a farmer myself now. Um, yeah. So it's
all kinds of things. He's growing mushrooms.

S1 (03:27):
Should we just scrap the pod and just talk about
this and what you've learnt from farming?

S2 (03:31):
Yeah, I think that's it. I know how to make cider.
How you have to make sure you ferment it well
so the bottles don't explode. I mean, there's a lot
to take away from it.

S1 (03:39):
Uh, there's another thing I need to ask you about.
I hear a rumor, Mel, that you're now maybe, like,
one step removed from the biggest pop star in the
history of the world, Taylor Swift. Is that true?

S2 (03:51):
Yeah, I think that is fair to say that I
might be namechecked in some of their, um, in some
of her songs in the future. Um, no. This was
I interviewed Miranda July, who's a artist and author. Do
you know much about her?

S1 (04:06):
Uh, I'm familiar with some of the things she's directed,
but I'm like, probably not, you know, as deep in
the Miranda July universe as as others.

S2 (04:14):
Yeah, I reckon this book, her new one, it's called
All Fours, is going to be a huge hit. That's
why I was interviewing her. I'd only read her book.
The first bad man. That's how I came to her.
I read that a while ago. And then I went
back and watched the films Kajillionaire Me and You and
Everyone We Know, which was quite a big hit. Her debut. Um,
so I was talking to her for this book. Turns
out she's really good friends with Margaret Qualley, who is

(04:35):
the wife of Jack Antonoff, who is, as we know,
the super producer of Taylor. And they've had lots of
brushes together. And Miranda July is kind of part of
their circle and went to Jack Antonoff and Margaret's wedding
and said that Taylor Swift kind of ruined it with
all the, um, with all the, uh, publicity that came
along with that.

S1 (04:53):
Well, that gives us, um, for firstly, very cool that
you interviewed Miranda July. That's exciting. Secondly, that gives us
another thing we have in common, because I also know
someone who attended that wedding and is friends with Margaret Qualley.
So there you go. There's basically the two of us
should have been there.

S2 (05:09):
Who do you know?

S1 (05:10):
Uh, Geraldine Viswanathan, who is an Australian actress who was
most recently in Drive Away Dolls, the, uh, Ethan Coen
film alongside Mark Ruffalo. She also was at that wedding,
and she told me a really funny story about Taylor Swift,
kind of recognizing her and them having a conversation about
Taylor Swift's handbag. And I really tried to get her
on the pod to talk about driveway dolls and get

(05:33):
her to tell us that story. And just the timing
didn't work out because she was in LA. And then
she went on like Kimmel and told that story on Kimmel,
and I'm like, damn, that's a story worthy of American
late night TV. And we could have had it on
this pod first.

S2 (05:45):
Damn, she really tested you first. I actually had a
bit of confusion with Miranda July about the wedding, because
I said to her, I didn't see you there, and
I meant I didn't see you in the paparazzi pictures,
but I think she thought I was also potentially there.
And I was trying to say, like, I was there,
but I didn't see you there. So I had did
she say like, what.

S1 (06:05):
Were you doing there? How did you get there?

S2 (06:06):
I think well, then she thought maybe I was questioning
the veracity of her account because she was like, no, no,
I was, I was there, I guess I just wasn't.

S1 (06:14):
You were saying you were there and she wasn't there.

S2 (06:16):
Yeah, yeah. So I had to clarify that. No, I
did not attend. I just didn't see her in any pictures,
which she was like, why would I be in them?

S1 (06:24):
That is really funny. I also realize one of my
friends has this gag about podcasts, where every podcast in
the history of the world starts as a podcast about
a particular thing, whether that's TV or film or whatever,
and then eventually just becomes like people talking about what
they've been up to and what their thoughts are like
ten minutes into this podcast and we've talked about you

(06:46):
just watching Clarkson's Farm and us chatting to, you know,
friends or work people about weddings they attended months ago. Very, very.

S2 (06:53):
Good. I mean, I'm okay with that. We have a
lot to catch up on.

S1 (06:55):
I have another I have actually the corollary to that
theory from, uh, from my friend. I don't know if
you saw this clip, uh, Donald Trump was speaking at
a rally in new Jersey last week, and he kind
of went off script and just started talking about the
film The Silence of the lambs, featuring Anthony Hopkins. You
across this, this thing?

S2 (07:16):
I didn't see it.

S1 (07:17):
What happened? The clip that sort of went viral. He
just kind of out of nowhere, just started saying, you know,
silence of the lambs. Do you guys know about this movie?
It's a great film starring the late, great Hannibal Lecter.

S3 (07:27):
Silence of the lamb. Has anyone ever seen A silence
of the lambs? The late, great Hannibal Lecter is a
wonderful man. He oftentimes would have a friend for dinner.
Remember the last scene? Excuse me. I'm about to have
a friend for dinner. Is this poor doctor walked by?
I'm about to have a friend for dinner.

S1 (07:46):
And so to me, this is the reverse of the
theory that every film podcast just becomes mates hanging out
and talking shit. Donald Trump is morphing into a film podcaster.
He is just going off piste and talking about these
random movies that won a lot of Academy Awards in
the early 90s. It's kind of confusing because Hannibal Lecter
or Anthony Hopkins, the actor who played him, they're neither late.

(08:08):
I mean, they're definitely not late. They're both still alive. Well,
in the in the Red Dragon universe, Hannibal Lecter is alive.
Anthony Hopkins is certainly alive. And I would know if
I don't know if I would call one of the
most famous cannibals in fiction. Great, either. Um, I strongly
encourage you to seek out this clip. There's allegedly 80,000
people in this stadium where he's talking about this. It's

(08:29):
very funny.

S2 (08:30):
It's amazing. And also, like, does it surprise me that
that's his one of his favorite films or the film
he references? Maybe not.

S1 (08:38):
It is a good film. You know, Jodie Foster, she's
great in it as well.

S2 (08:41):
Yeah. When she gets the hose, puts the lotion on
and gets the goes, I always think of that scene. Oh,
that song that.

S1 (08:47):
Yeah, yeah, it gets the hose again. Yeah. Puts the lotion. Gosh,
that's a throwback.

S2 (08:51):
What a moment.

S1 (08:52):
Hey, should we get into today's episode?

S2 (08:54):
I thought you were gonna say, should we get Trump
on the show to chat more?

S1 (08:59):
Um, look, there's a few different things we wanted to
cover on the show today. Baby reindeer, which we've spoken
about a couple of times already. It's on track to
become the most watched show in the history of Netflix,
and perhaps one of the most controversial. Virtual shows on
Netflix as well. We're going to look at its phenomenal response, why?
It just keeps getting more and more viewers and some

(09:21):
of the complicated questions the show's raised about the way
real life stories are told in fictional forms, and the
responsibility creators and audiences have when engaging with this kind
of work. We're also going to talk about one of
our favorite shows that we've watched recently, a show that
we're both a little bit late to. Thomas actually has
been hounding us to get onto this for a while,

(09:42):
and we finally did. And we're going to talk about
it while he's away. So sucked in. Thomas. Too bad. Um,
but first, Mel. The federal budget was unveiled on Tuesday
night and for everyone listening, switches off to go listen
to Andrew Huberman or call her daddy or whatever podcasts
normal people listen to, I promise we're only going to
briefly discuss federal politics and what is in store for

(10:03):
arts and culture in particular. Throughout my career as a journalist, Mel,
I've generally had to cover the budget, either being like
in the lock up or staying up late editing stories,
working on podcasts. So explain what's going on. Who are
the winners and losers? What is the budget narrative? What
does this mean for the future of the country? Thankfully,
in my current job, I do not have to spend

(10:24):
budget night working. In fact, instead of even watching the
Treasurer's speech, I was watching another show. That is going
to be my recommendation on Impress Your Friends. I'll say
more on that later, but did you watch any of
the budget coverage?

S2 (10:38):
No, I didn't watch it. I did read all of
our coverage. Went straight to that winners and losers infographic,
which always amuses me. And then I did read, of course,
Ross Gittins takeaways from it, which I think really allowed
me to understand inflation and recession for once.

S1 (10:53):
Well, yeah, some of the winners and losers. I don't
know if it was Alan or the ABC's one where
they were like losers, sheep, farmers, winners, sheep. I don't
really know what's going on there, but.

S2 (11:03):
It's so good.

S1 (11:04):
Happy for the sheep.

S2 (11:04):
Let me let me explain that to you, because I
do understand that Jeremy has prepared me for this question. Um, no.
So I didn't watch it, but I did kind of
read the outlines. And then I was very keen to
see if there was any, um, any support for arts
and culture, for which there was not a lot. Yeah.

S1 (11:23):
So I went onto the actual budget government website. I
went to Budget Paper two, I believe I went to
budget measures outlined in expenditures, and I went to the
whatever department that arts is in. It's sort of like infrastructure, defense, health, blah, blah, blah,
everything under the sun. And then at the end you
got art stacked on and there is like half a

(11:43):
page of arts budget spending. Uh, it's not a lot,
as you mentioned. And what is in there is kind
of minimal in terms of the amount of money involved.
But there's a couple of things I think worth mentioning.
They touch on things that we talk about on this show.
They touch on areas to do with the future of
Australian arts and TV and film and all these kinds
of things. Uh, our colleague at the paper, Linda Morris,

(12:04):
has been reporting on the financial crisis. Really, that's been
impacting Australia's art schools, places like Aftrs that train the
next generation of people who make TV and film and screenwriters. Uh,
there's also Nida, the National Institute of Dramatic Art, which
trains up actors. They've not been doing very well financially
over the last few years, but the government has stepped in.
They've received $115 million boost. That's pretty exciting for the

(12:29):
future of Australian arts education, isn't it? Yeah.

S2 (12:31):
That's huge. And like if we were going to do
a breakdown of winners and losers for arts, they are
a clear winner. They were kind of getting a lot
of money from this budget. And it's increasing over the
years quite substantially. And I think that's a brilliant thing
because it's impossible to be an artist today. So I'm
glad to see that we're at least attempting to nurture
young talent at the schools. But then obviously we're going
to have to make sure that there are jobs and

(12:52):
supports once, once they enter the industry as professionals.

S1 (12:55):
Exactly, exactly. And that that's sort of the next, uh,
part of that kind of pipeline. And there was a
little bit there as well. There was an extra $14.5
million to help produce more children's television shows. You know,
it's like a Bluey. It's been a big Australian kids
TV export. I would kind of like us to go
back to that crazy era where we grew up, where

(13:16):
it wasn't just kind of animated. We had these live action, scripted,
wacky kids programs like Round the Twist and Ship to
Shore that, you know, created and nurtured and incubated generation
of Australian kind of talent and taught people how to
write and direct and edit and do lighting. I don't know,
14.5 million is going to be enough to do that.
I know we've talked before about these bigger policy questions

(13:38):
around streaming quotas. How can the government get more out
of the presence of Netflix and Disney and Amazon and
these big companies to actually fund and make more Australian shows?
Netflix obviously has had big success with Heartbreak High, but
it's fair to say there's more to do across the board.
How do you feel about that investment in kids television?

(13:58):
I mean.

S2 (13:59):
As you say, it doesn't sound like a enough money
to substantially change the dial. Obviously, what it does highlight
is the federal government's priority in supporting that industry in
particular and giving that industry a boost, which I think
is commendable. But. I don't think it's anything that's going
to really revolutionize the making of children's TV programs here.
I mean, I was just thinking, wouldn't it be good,

(14:21):
like back to the days of Nickelodeon, except without what
we now know about Nickelodeon or all those kid shows
we grew up in, it would be great to see
them all. I think obviously Bluey has been, you know,
shown the potential for that market not only here but abroad. So, um, yeah,
I mean, I think there's, I think there's room for
growth there. And this is a good sign for that industry.

S1 (14:42):
Yeah. And Bluey is certainly doing great in terms of
representation of cattle dogs in suburban Brisbane. But you know,
there's a lot, a lot more there to tap into.

S2 (14:50):
Oh my gosh. This is the farming episode. Everything comes
back to the farm.

S1 (14:56):
The content farms that we toil in, you know, everything's
about farming. Um, and then finally, I think the other
thing just to to to touch on live music, which
again we've spoken about again and again and just Australian
music more generally facing serious challenges here, the government has
extended a grant, this time worth nearly $9 million, to
help support live music. That's money that can go to

(15:16):
festivals and venues to help put on shows. And I
guess similar to the kids TV cash injection, it's recognising
that there are problems and it's putting some money into them.
It just sort of feels like and maybe we're a
bit maybe not. Biased is not the right word, but
maybe more closely attuned to how severe these issues are,

(15:38):
because our jobs day in, day out involved talking to people,
making this kind of stuff, telling us about the challenges
of trying to get Australian artists broken in this country, internationally,
what it's like to do so in in an environment
flooded by Spotify and YouTube, international companies have bought up
and basically owned most of the live music scene here

(15:59):
now and in TV land, the kinds of shows that
used to just provide jobs and incomes to every person
involved in the sector. They don't really exist anymore. People
work on shows for like 3 to 6 months and
then are left for that. Like this is a big
fundamental transformation that has happened to the production of arts
and culture in this country, and it just feels like

(16:21):
it needs a very, very big wholesale thought through joined
up response that isn't quite there yet. And I'm not
trying to say that the government won't do that in
the future. They've got these reviews, they've got recommendations coming
out about things like streaming. But at this point in time,
it feels like this budget is a little bit more
acknowledging there are problems and helping a little bit, but
not really tackling it wholesale. Is that fair to say?

S2 (16:42):
Yeah, I think that's fair. And like the cost of
living crisis is obviously really affecting live music venues here.
I think some of the all arts organisations are struggling,
but I think some of those with the older subscriber
bases are a bit more insulated, mainly because their demographic
do still have discretionary income. But a lot of young
people go to live music and live music festivals, and

(17:03):
that is kind of the first thing they will cut
off their list when they're trying to save money. So
I do think that that industry in particular needs a
really helping hand. And as we've seen with things like
splendour being cancelled, it is kind of crumbling in many places.

S1 (17:16):
Yeah, really important point, I think before we get into
Baby Reindeer and the other TV things, we wanted to
discuss a couple of news things I wanted to run
through with you. Let's start in the world of music.
So last week when we were discussing Drake and Kendrick's beef,
I throw out a prediction that Kendrick's not like us,

(17:36):
which is considered, I think, both the catchiest song and
probably most triumphant song in this beef. Well, sort of
the one that just, like, sealed the deal that he'd won,
predicted that that could go to number one on the
Billboard charts. Guess what, Mel? It debuted at number one
on the Billboard charts this week.

S2 (17:54):
Wow. Taylor Swift, she's down bad.

S1 (17:57):
She I mean, she is struggling. She is struggling. I'm
not that surprised. This song went ballistic. I personally have
played it like 3 to 400 times a day since
it came out, and actually four of the top ten
songs on the Billboard charts this week are Drake and
Kendrick diss tracks. Taylor Swift has gone from number one.
Her song fortnight with Post Malone all the way down

(18:17):
to number four. Hip hop's back, baby.

S2 (18:21):
Wow. Okay, here's my hot take on this. Yes. Do
you think that because actually Taylor Swift is a bit
of a part of their beef, right. Like, oh, that's true.
Singing about Taylor Swift. One of the songs is called
Tailor Made. They're kind of fighting over Who's better Bros
with Taylor, and they're using Taylor to diss each other
about their record release dates. Are the Swifties sending them up?

S1 (18:42):
Okay, so immediately, man, that is no. And secondly, in
my response to that is, I can't believe you're trying
to make this about Taylor Swift. But but but to
your credit, yeah, that is the that is, I guess,
the testament to how pervasive Taylor Swift is in our
modern era of culture. She has worked with Drake in
ads before for like, Apple Music. Kendrick featured on her song.

(19:04):
You talked about Jack Antonoff earlier, her main producer. He
produced 616 and an A, one of the tracks from Kendrick,
you can't escape the Taylor verse even when you think you've.
The tale of us by getting into the rap world.
So look, begrudgingly, I might have to hand you that
one a little bit.

S2 (19:21):
I am surprised that I thought. I thought maybe we
would see 1 or 2 songs up there. I am
surprised by how many, mainly because I thought people would
be reading about the feud, but I didn't think as
many people would be actively seeking out the songs and
then listening to them a lot, particularly as it went
on and on. So yeah, I was kind of surprised.

S1 (19:38):
I think that's what makes this beef quite unique in
the history of beefs is just the availability of music.
Now in the rapid fire way they're being released. Some
of these songs have got over 100 million streams on Spotify,
in YouTube, and it's so easy now to go from
listening to one to then listening to the other, to
listening to the one that's response to that one. It's really,

(20:01):
really interesting. I don't think they're going to last in
the charts that long. I think this captured the pier
where everyone was really, really, really engaged. I think it
also says something about how a lot of people just
did not fuck with the tortured poets department. Taylor's songs
tend to stick around for a bit, but the fact
that she's just got one fortnight clinging on and that
sort of slipping away says something about the, I guess,

(20:24):
how how largely that album is going to loom in
pop culture. It doesn't seem very largely.

S2 (20:30):
And did Macklemore ride this wave all the way to
the top to.

S1 (20:33):
Macklemore has not, I don't think I don't think that
song was released on streaming platforms. It might have just
made it onto YouTube, but there seems to be some
issue there with where you can listen to it. Most
of those listeners seem to be happening on his Instagram,
which I don't believe I could be wrong. I don't
believe is, uh, captured when it comes to Billboard chart rankings.

S2 (20:49):
Yeah, okay. Misty's mark.

S1 (20:52):
He is in Australia right now. He's playing a bunch
of sold out shows. He just, uh, came from Sydney
where he popped in to the, uh, Sydney, uh, pro-Palestine encampments. Uh,
it's obviously he's associated with that campaign now after releasing
the protest song last week and he's in Melbourne. In fact,
I'm down to go see him at Rod Laver Arena
tonight playing a bunch of sold out shows there, which

(21:13):
will be, uh, fun to check out. Um, Mel, there's
one other music thing I wanted to touch on, uh,
when Beyonce released her album that we spoke about earlier
this year, one of the goals, she was quite direct, uh,
of that project was to try and reclaim the black
history of country music. She collaborated with a bunch of
black country artists, including Virginia artist Shaboozey. He was featured

(21:34):
on Spaghetti and Sweet Honey Bacon off her album Cowboy
Carter or Beyonce. And she made history this week for
the first time ever, ever, in the history of the
United States of America, two black country songs have gone
number one consecutively on the country charts. That happened when
Beyonce's Texas Hold'em was replaced this week by Showbiz's latest single,

(21:58):
a bar song.

UU (21:59):
Summer Pull Me Up, a double shot of whiskey named
on me. Daniel's got a history. There's a party downtown
near fifth Street. Everybody at the bar get tipsy.

S1 (22:17):
It's a bar song in brackets. Tipsy is an interpolation
of rapid J. Korn's 2004 track tipsy. Do you remember
that track from The club? Yeah I do.

UU (22:27):
Everybody in the club insists that everybody in the club
getting tipsy.

S1 (22:36):
Jaquan kind of like a one hit wonder, but that
song was very, very, very popular. Uh, features in the
soundtracks of a bunch of movies from that time as well.
Jaquan is from Missouri, so there is like a nice
southern sort of crossover there as well. I really like
this song, a bar song. It feels like very fun,
modern like, like country that is resonating with people for
a reason. It's nice to see Shaboozey throw some respect

(22:59):
to Jaquan to leverage the Beyonce collab into doing this.
This is a pretty big moment for music, I guess
is Beyonce said, I want to do this and she
seemingly has. That's a pretty strong testament to her power.

S2 (23:12):
Yeah. It's huge. Um, it's a great song and I do,
I think when you know, not that long ago when
we were sitting here talking about all of Thomas Mitchell's
favorite artists, Luke Combs, Morgan Wallen, you know, we were
talking about how it was still a very male white
area and how fantastic to see people of color, male, female,

(23:33):
kind of on the top of that list. And I
really I'm really interested to see where country goes and
how these sounds keep being interpolated and made anew and changed.
So I think this is great and pretty exciting. And
I will say, like, I think that people get deterred
when they think of it as Beyonce's country album. And people,
I think people just have this image of white and stale,
the country, and it's just not that anymore. And Waxahatchee,

(23:57):
when we were talking about her, kind of proved that
point as well. But I would say give these musicians
a chance. Don't be deterred by this country label, because
it doesn't really mean what it once meant.

S1 (24:06):
Absolutely, absolutely. And like there is we talked about it
on our episode discussing that album, such a long history
of black artists in the country genre. But this current
phase of. Really significant chart success and conversations around who
gets to be counted as country. You can sort of
pin back to Lil NAS X, Old Town Road, and

(24:27):
the fact that that forced this conversation, that's a queer
black rapper forcing his way into the country charts, then
Beyonce bringing it all together. Now Shaboozey doing this. It's
kind of wild that it's not even in our lifetime.
In like the last 6 or 7 years, there has
been this massive shift in what has been one of

(24:47):
the most white and generally considered conservative genres to have
ever existed. It's really, really interesting to see unfold.

S2 (24:56):
Yeah, and I kind of love it that, um, because
it was that Beyonce song. Was it daddy.

S1 (25:00):
Lessons?

S2 (25:01):
Yeah, yeah. I kind of love the idea that all
of this is motivated by the revenge of that not
being able to be on the country list. I mean.

S1 (25:07):
Yeah, Cowboy Carter kind of her diss track at the
entire country genre. And it's working.

S2 (25:11):
Yeah. So good.

S1 (25:23):
Let's get into baby reindeer.

S4 (25:27):
You say this woman stalking you?

S5 (25:28):
Yeah, like six months, maybe.

S4 (25:30):
Why did it take you so long to report it?
I think she needs help.

S5 (25:32):
She comes to my work, my house. She sends me emails, like,
all the time.

S4 (25:36):
Really threatening towards you. I wouldn't say that's particularly threatening.

S6 (25:44):
There's a reason you're keeping her around, and maybe it's
what she gives you.

S7 (25:48):
But really manly hands, haven't you?

S1 (25:50):
A quick recap for anyone who hasn't yet seen the show,
but it's been number one on Netflix in Australia and
around the world for a number of weeks now. So
I'm assuming most people listening to this have seen it.
The show came out of nowhere. It blew up on Netflix.
Comedian Richard Gadd based this show that he wrote and
stars in on his own real experience of being stalked

(26:12):
by a woman. The show looks at that, how he
handled it, as well as the broader issue of assault
and trauma. It sparked an enormous amount of conversation for
a few different reasons. Every episode of the show opens
with Netflix kind of caption saying that this is based
on a true story. Gadd has said that it's based

(26:35):
on things that happened to him. It's about real people,
and a lot of the debate about the show has
been around how much detail was provided about the characters
in the show, how easy it was for some people
online to seemingly find and identify who these characters are
based on. In some instances, they seem to have identified

(26:58):
the wrong person, but the conversation has become so much
bigger than just what you see in the six episodes
on Netflix and sparked really, really fascinating debate around the
responsibility of Richard Gadd in making the show, whether he
should have changed details to make it harder for people
to find them, the culpability of audiences in wanting to
find these people and then sort of holding them, pointing

(27:20):
at them and sending them death threats in some instances.
Netflix is responsibility in making a show based on not
just a comedian's real life trauma, but perhaps their responsibility
in making sure enough details would change to avoid the situation.
There's a lot to talk about. I think this has
become the big TV controversy of the year, if not
the last couple of years, but I wanted to start
by asking you, did you see the interview with the

(27:44):
person who's being dubbed the real life Martha? Martha is
the stalker in the show. The woman is called Fiona Harvey. Uh,
that's who has been identified, and she's certainly self-identified herself
as the person Martha is based on. Did you see
her interview with Piers Morgan this week?

S2 (28:00):
Oh, man, I saw it. As much as you can
see it when you have, like, your hands over your
eyes as you're watching something, it was like I found
it quite hard to to watch. And I kept thinking,
you know how in Harry Potter there are those like
paintings and the subjects of the painting every so often,
like leap out of their frame into, like, you know,
into the real world and into different situations. It was

(28:21):
just like watching this, like, fictional thing and real life
kind of become completely intermingled. And even on the screen
when they were like cutting together Fiona, Harvey and Martha scenes,
it was like just quite an odd experience to watch.
And the whole time I kept thinking, well, this is
the Netflix sequel to Baby Reindeer, isn't it? That we're
seeing this would be the second season?

S1 (28:41):
Oh my God, totally, totally. It could have been a
scene from a show.

S2 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, totally. Gad gad being a liar, the collapse
of the career. And it also just feels like such
a Martha and Donny thing to to get embroiled in.
I found it quite difficult to watch. What did you think?

S1 (28:56):
No, I completely agree. And I guess, like, you know,
Piers Morgan isn't necessarily who I go to when I
think about journalistic ethics in talking about this. You know,
she was paid for her interview. She's now said she
wasn't paid enough and she wants like £1 million. I
think she was paid like £250. And Piers Morgan says, oh,
but we also paid for her to get a haircut
and we gave her a nice car to and from
the studio. So there is a whole strange element around

(29:19):
the ethics of chequebook journalism as well. But, you know,
this person clearly has various issues, it's fair to say,
and sort of mining them for content in a in
a Piers Morgan YouTube show didn't really feel like great.
It's worth pointing out that she she denies some of
the specifics of what her character Martha is said to

(29:41):
have done. She says I didn't stalk him. I didn't
interact with him for as long as the show suggests.
I did email him and tweet him, but only a
handful of times, she says. And this is a really
crucial one. The show says Martha was like sentenced for
committing a crime around stalking. She says that never happened
to her, so there's a lot there. Given that the

(30:03):
show is explicit in saying that this is based on
a true story, Gad says that he changed details to
make it harder for people to find out who these
characters were based on. He also said right from the start,
he didn't want people to do that, but. A lot
of people have made the point and I kind of
agree with it. He didn't change that many details. People

(30:24):
found Fiona Harvey because she, like Martha, is an older
Scottish woman. She looks very similar to the character. She's
also a lawyer. She has been previously accused of harassing
other people and stalking them. She frequented the bar where
Gad used to work. She visited him at one of
his comedy shows, and people found tweets that she'd made
that were very, very similar to lines of dialogue that

(30:46):
the character was given in the show. So leaving aside
the weirdness of the Morgan interview, which I just don't
really think reflects well on anyone involved, do you think
Gad changed enough on this one?

S2 (30:59):
Oh, it's a really tough one. And it's a really
interesting one because I'm I mean, art has often been
based on real life experiences, right? And often people have
played a guessing game about who an artist's work is
about in any form. But I guess what's different here
is the reach and scale of Netflix and the development

(31:20):
of social media, and the kind of armchair detectives that
that have spawned. I'm hesitant to like, say that Gad
needed to change more because part of what people resonated
with was, I guess, what felt like the emotional honesty
of this, and that is why it was so powerful. Obviously,
him playing himself has added to all of that, but

(31:40):
at the same time, I obviously recognize that art has
real life consequences, so I'm not entirely sure what the
solution here is, but I know a lot of people
were talking about whether Netflix kind of did enough, and
Gad has obviously spoken out a lot, saying that they've
gone to great lengths to disguise her. I do find
it hard to think that Netflix wouldn't have covered themselves

(32:02):
legally on this, because obviously in that interview, um, Fiona
Harvey was talking about potentially suing Netflix, but I do
find it hard to think that they wouldn't have done
their due diligence in terms of the legal side of this,
but where the boundary is between recognizing someone and not
recognizing someone, I don't know if there is a clear
cut answer to that. I think it's a hard one.

S1 (32:22):
It's a really good point, and there's a lot of
different like facets to that specific question as well. So
Netflix in Europe is headquartered in the Netherlands, which means
that it isn't subject at the moment to the UK
kind of media regulatory system. And there's been some conversation
from critics and commentators in the UK that the BBC
couldn't have gotten away with something like this. And in fact,

(32:44):
there is legislation currently in the UK Parliament to try
to bring Netflix within its media regulatory framework. So people
like Fiona Harvey could say, hey, I don't like the
way that I was represented. Can I get some compensation
or do you have to change stuff for it? That's
like an ongoing issue. Netflix. It's also worth pointing out,
like has been in hot water for things around this before, uh,

(33:07):
when they released Monster The Jeffrey Dahmer Story about Jeffrey Dahmer,
they were criticized for making that show without the consent
of victims families. I think that was less a legal
issue and more a moral issue than Netflix policy. Chief
Benjamin King was actually grilled about this in UK parliamentary
hearings last week. And it's interesting because he said, we

(33:27):
didn't want to anonymize the show or make it too generic,
to the point where it was no longer Richard Gad's story,
because that would undermine the intent behind the show. I
personally wouldn't be comfortable with a world in which we
decided it was better that Richard was silenced and not
allowed to tell the story. I kind of feel like
that sounds like a really good point, but then it
is sort of these two drastically opposed options without any

(33:51):
consideration for what could happen in the middle. Like you
could tell. And like lots of shows do this, you
could tell a very similar story where perhaps the character
doesn't have exactly the same traits down to their profession
and their nationality. There are ways to make these things
a little bit less obvious. When you're in an era
where this is how people consume. TV and film and

(34:15):
podcast and all these kinds of things. I kind of
think I feel less critical of Richard than I do
towards Netflix. I think, you know, he made this as
a one person show for Edinburgh in 2019. He's like
maybe 100 people will come and see this show. It
doesn't live on in memory. You're not going to like
rewind and take a screenshot and see who can find
that looks like this person. And so he's told it

(34:36):
honestly and authentically to himself. He's written it. Netflix has
picked it up. I feel like it is on Netflix,
or it's on any company who is streaming and telling
this kind of story to then be like, okay, well, yeah,
the biggest TV platform that has ever existed in the
history of the world, we've been in situations like this before.
Is it time to sit down and run the ruler

(34:57):
over all of this and say, have we done enough here?
And it seems like they just hadn't? And I think
it's interesting because even if Fiona Harvey, the quote unquote
real Martha, isn't able to successfully sue or, you know,
the show stays up or whatever she wants doesn't happen.
I kind of think this will change the way that
Netflix and other networks make shows like this. I just
think no one wants to be in like a quote

(35:19):
unquote baby reindeer situation again. And whether it's through regulatory
reform or just like policy changes at Netflix, which is
generally from people I talk to, they say that it's
much more lax than national broadcasters like the BBC and
the ABC, which, because they're public institutions, have such specific
editorial policies and guidelines about how you tell a story

(35:39):
like this. Netflix is a little bit more of a cowboy.
I think that's probably likely to change, and I think
probably for the better, because they're the ones who make
millions and millions, if not billions of dollars off these
kinds of stories, and a lot of people then just
become collateral damage. That makes sense.

S2 (35:55):
Yeah, I think that's right. The amount of money involved
in this and the amount of people getting rich off,
this is, I think, what kind of takes this into
a different level, because just kind of thinking like, if
he had written a memoir about this, he kind of
could have said the same things, but the consequences would
not have been the same. Yeah.

S1 (36:12):
Even if that memoir became a massive success and sold
100,000 copies, which would be amazing for a memoir from
a comedian, that's a drop in the ocean compared to
the 60 million people it seems like who've watched this show.

S2 (36:23):
Yeah, for sure. And like, I think Netflix didn't help
themselves by playing how up, how much of a true
story it was in every episode like that didn't help them,
because of course, a lot of people then will want
to investigate the true story, though I will say, I
don't think obviously the name was going around in certain
areas online, but I don't think Fiona Harvey was known

(36:45):
as a name generally until she put herself onto Piers
Morgan's show, because I think a lot of like the
Daily Mail had interviewed her but didn't name her. So
I actually think Fiona Harvey probably in a way also
and like she says, she did it to kind of,
you know, to she needed to own the story now. But,
you know, maybe there's ways around that in terms of,

(37:06):
you know, the ethics of media as well in playing
into this story.

S1 (37:09):
Yeah. Well, we were talking about this, this a work
because there's another person involved in this, the alleged perpetrator.
If you see the show, there's a there's a person
in the show, again, based on a real incident who
does something very bad to Richard, which he assaults. Richard. Um,
and people thought they had found that person. Uh, and
they named them online. And that person then tweeted or

(37:33):
put on social media. Hey, I'm not. The person involved
in this. I'm not who the character is based on.
I'm going to report any kind of threats made against
me to the police. And then Richard also named that
person and said, hey, it's not this person. So that
person that identified themselves, we were talking at work. When
we cover this, do we name that person? I sort
of leant against doing so. This is why I keep

(37:54):
saying that person not saying their name, even though you
can find them on Reddit or on social media, because
it's one thing for someone to to say something on
a thread or even on their own Instagram. It's another
when a big, reputable media institution or someone like Piers
Morgan blasts that out to millions and millions more people.
And particularly in the case where this person is saying
I'm not identified, it feels a bit shit to be

(38:16):
like name of person here says they are not the
bad guy from baby reindeer. Well, I wasn't even thinking
about them. And now I am because you've told me
their name.

S2 (38:23):
Yeah, it's so complicated. And like, I guess you gave
a few examples of when this has happened before in
terms of shows based on real life experiences and people
going down the rabbit hole of trying to find them out.
There are so many where it hasn't happened, like I
think I may, I May Destroy You, which was based
on Michaela Cole's own experience, or she has been a
survivor of sexual assault. You didn't see people trying to

(38:44):
figure out who that perpetrator was. I mean, it's just
such a hard line between when you think someone's going
to be recognizable and when you think a show is
going to take off to an extent that people are
going to try and dock certain characters in it, I
do think like, yes, Netflix can do more, but I
do also think there are limits to what they can control,
particularly when social media kind of has a life of

(39:05):
its own.

S1 (39:05):
I think that's a really good point, and I think
that sort of brings us to the other part of
all this is like the audience or the people involved
who are doing this kind of thing. I, you know,
it's not my job to like lecture people or anything
like that. We live in a moment in which this
is how things work, whether it's you're you're laughing because
it is kind of my job to like.

S8 (39:23):
Yeah.

S2 (39:24):
I was waiting for the here comes the lecture.

S1 (39:26):
No, I guess what I'm trying to say is, as
much as I wish people weren't turning every true crime
podcast or every TV show, documentary or fictional or whatever
into a real life, like Reddit or Facebook group where
they think they can solve these mysteries. As much as
I wish that wasn't happening because of the obvious negative
consequences of that, when they get it wrong, which they

(39:47):
often do, that's the world we live in. So we
just have to accept that's what it is interested in
thinking about. Like why that is what it is like.
Why do people feel the compulsion to do that? And
a lot was made about the fact that everyone wanted
to figure out who Martha was. They didn't want to
figure out who the perpetrator who assaulted Richard was. I

(40:08):
think dad does go to the fact that, like, maybe
seeing a woman in that kind of threatening role is
not something we're used to. And so that was seen
as being a bit strange and like, let's figure out
who this person is. They're so wacky and there are
so many breadcrumbs for us to follow here. But it
has just become part of how so many pieces of
culture are dissected. And it seems reductive to me to

(40:32):
not just engage with the work, like Richard Gadd is
making a story that he has said from day one
is not about saying this person's bad, it's about understanding
why people would do something like this. And he says
she's a victim in this as much as I am
because of her mental health and what she's gone through
and the ongoing ramifications of trauma, that's what the show

(40:55):
is about. And that's interesting conversations you and I have
had on the show with Thomas, people are having, you know,
all around them, they watch the show. But then on
Reddit in particular and some other forums, all that stripped
away and it's just, hey, I found like this new
story from this year that links this person to that person.
A couple of questions for you. Like, how much culpability
do we have in all of this? And why do

(41:16):
you think people can't stop doing that?

S2 (41:19):
Yeah, I, I have to say, and maybe it's because
I think, as previously discussed, everything's a lie, but I've
never watched a show and ever felt the need to
then go and see whether it's real, like watching this show.
The only thing I looked up was Richard Gadd, because
I wanted to know what else he had made or like.
I think even back to watching The Crown, all these
fact and fiction, what's true, what's not, I don't really care.

(41:39):
I just presume that everything that's created comes through someone's lens,
so someone else is definitely going to disagree with it.
So I haven't quite ever felt that need to see
whether something is true, because I think there's obviously a
veracity in approximating the truth or a truth for a person. Um,
why do people do it? I think maybe it adds something.

(42:00):
It obviously adds something to the show for a lot
of people, for the fact that knowing it is real
or based in truth obviously adds something to the show
for a lot of people. And then I do think
it's just easy once you're in that kind of rabbit
hole of looking up what's real and what's not. So
then kind of continue doing that and go down the
loop of exploring the real lives of everyone. Maybe it's

(42:22):
that voyeurism that social media has kind of trained us
in the kind of looking into other people's lives, and
it is almost like, I mean, we were talking before
about there being a second season to this. Um, it
is almost like an addendum to the shows like you watch.
The show. And then it's not just about watching the show,
it's then about researching it. It's kind of becomes part
of the process of watching television, I think for people.

(42:44):
Do you ever do it? Are you a looker up
or of truth?

S1 (42:46):
Well, no. First I want to say I think, I
think that's a really great explanation as to the appeal
of it, because some of that does ring true for me. Like, I,
I don't I don't feel the urge to do it
in a show like this. Like again, like I was
kind of curious as to Richard Gadds back story, but
it didn't occur to me to be like, oh, it's
based on a true story. Who are these bad people involved?
But I, I enjoyed doing it. Like if I'm watching

(43:08):
a historical fiction show or something like The Dropout, you know,
which is based on real like, you know, journalism that
has happened or a book or whatever, and being like, oh, cool.
Like what context can I add? Like, what have they
changed from the book to the screen? Because like you said,
everyone's changing everything. Everyone's making this with different intents, and
it's sometimes interesting to figure out what they left behind

(43:30):
or what they tweaked that I do. I think that's
a pretty normal thing for people to do, but I think, yeah,
trying to turn everything into a true crime series is
where things seem to have gotten a little bit out
of hand. I guess this is me lecturing people now again,
which I which I'm trying not to do, but I mean, yeah,
I is there any merit to it? I guess if
we want to be sort of generous to people who

(43:52):
do it because it's not like, you know, a bunch
of weird freaks we're talking about. It's like many, many,
many people. And I think the interrogation of this show
is why it has been most watched for so long. Right.
This is driving a lot of viewers to it. What
is perhaps the most generous interpretation of this? People are
trying to understand why people would do something like this.

(44:12):
They just want to solve a mystery. They think they're
being helpful. Any any kind of generous interpretations you can
think of.

S2 (44:18):
Yeah. For sure. I mean, I think it's, it's there's
a gradient, right? I think to be fair, I think
it's perfectly fine to watch a show and want to
Google like whether facts are true about it or to
see how much of it is true. But there's a
big difference between people doing that and then people kind
of doxing. Yeah. And naming, speculating who they think it
is and slandering. Yeah. And kicking off those whole kind

(44:39):
of subgroups that do that. So I think there's a
really big difference. Like, yeah, I totally get why people
want to find out more about a show and they're
interested in it and the context helps them. But I
think the dangerous part is when it's the naming and
shaming and it goes too far, which is probably a
minority of the internet, really, in the whole grand scheme
of things. But that's the area of concern because that

(45:00):
then does have real world consequences for people.

S1 (45:03):
It is so fascinating to think about when we first
mentioned this TV show on our show, it was Thomas
doing it on Impress Your Friends. Like, you know, a
couple of months ago did not expect it to either
be the most watched show potentially in the history of Netflix,
which could make it the most watched show in the
history of the world, or be something that is part
of like UK parliamentary hearings and leading to conversations about

(45:26):
doxing and why people shouldn't do it. But on one hand,
how amazing is television to spark these kinds of conversations?
On the other hand, kind of a bit sad that
we just kind of can't have nice and important things
without people losing their minds.

S2 (45:41):
I know, and also, isn't it insane like we were
talking about mid TV not that long ago? And then
a show like this, which is so different. So, you know,
out there not conventional, not I formulated intensely unique is
like this show that has one Netflix like surely that's
got to make them rethink a bit what they're doing
as well. The success of something like this.

S1 (46:01):
Well, no. And exactly. And I think it relates to
this conversation of whether they thought it through, because we
talked earlier about how this came out of nowhere. Right.
Like for most TV shows that are being dropped by
big streamers, particularly ones that they think are going to
go off, you get, you know, emails in advance. This
show is coming out. You can watch early episodes, you
can interview the talent, you can do some stories about them.

(46:21):
You can get people hyped. None of that happened anywhere
in the world for baby reindeer. So I wonder whether
it was kind of acquired. They just thought, cool, this
is like a cool Edinburgh show. It's like an interesting
dark comedy. Off it goes. If they thought it was
going to be such a big show, they probably would have.
In my view, I think probably run that ruler over
it and thought what the consequences could be here.

S2 (46:43):
Or at least manage the situation better with all of
the people who were involved.

S1 (46:48):
Absolutely. Yeah. Because the other thing that Fiona Harvey said
is that she did not even know the show was
coming out. And I feel like when you're doing a
story on someone as a journalist, whether you're making a documentary,
whether you're making a fictional show that you're pitching as
a true story, picking up the phone and calling the
person who's quote unquote the bad guy is really tough.
But it is an important part of the job. And

(47:11):
it does feel like that was something that should have
been done that wasn't done here, even just to give
them a heads up or to say, hey, what concerns
do you potentially have that we could factor in? That
feels like something that could have happened early on in
this process to avoid this kind of situation.

S2 (47:26):
Yeah, for sure. They could have protected themselves. And I mean,
maybe they did. We don't know. That's only her claim,
but I presume Netflix would have told us if they
had spoken to her by now. But yes, they could have. Definitely.
Protected themselves from a lot of this backlash by doing that. Yeah.

S1 (47:39):
Look, I got to make a guess and say, this
might not be the last time we talk about baby reindeer,
but we have another kind of trauma inflected show, but
a much more fun one to talk about. This is
one that Thomas has been messaging us about for a
long time to watch. And really interestingly, the only reason
I actually got around to watching it is I was

(48:01):
out on Saturday night. I came home from a friend's
birthday party and I wasn't quite ready to go to sleep.
So I just watched, you know, like you put on
a show that you watched ages ago. It's kind of comfortable.
You don't need to grapple with complicated ideas like, I'll
watch this as I fall to sleep, so turn to
The Inbetweeners. And you know, we love that show. And
I was like, I wonder what they're up to now?
And I'm like, oh, cool. These guys are in that show.

(48:22):
I watch that. And Will. What's he up to in cinema? Anything.
And I went on his Wikipedia page, Simon Bird, who
plays Will from The Inbetweeners and he is the director
of this show that Thomas has been yelling at us
to watch such brave girls. So I thought, what, I
should actually watch this show, and I did, and I
loved it.

S9 (48:40):
Well, can you pick me up, please? I'm having big feelings.
I can only.

S10 (48:42):
Afford one daughter having a breakdown at a time. You're.

S11 (48:48):
Well, the thing about Josie is that she's been experimenting
with some ideas.

S12 (48:52):
Well, that sounds good.

UU (48:54):
No, no it's not.

S9 (48:59):
Maybe she'll spot me across the room and realize I'm
the love of her life. Don't think so.

S13 (49:02):
Sometimes me and mom forget you were even there when
you're standing right next to us.

S2 (49:05):
Billy Johnson Thomas Mitchell also bullied me into it, and
it got to such an extent that he was like
messaging me, saying, are you watching such brave girls? And
I kind of like, I got a bit belligerent. I
was like, you don't know me. You don't know what
I like. Um, and then I did put it on
mainly so that he would stop asking me about it
and like, maybe this is, uh, maybe this is an
early call. It's only May, but I'm going with best

(49:26):
comedy of 2024.

S1 (49:28):
Wow, wow. Big call. Why didn't you tell us what
the show is about?

S2 (49:32):
Yeah, it is a real word of mouth show. So
it's on Stan in Australia. It's a six part BBC comedy,
and it's created by Catt Sadler, who I hadn't heard
of before this but is such a talent. It follows
single mum Deb, who's played by Louise Brealey, and she's
got two daughters, which is the press. Josie, who is
kind of played to Chef's Kiss by Sadler and her
boy mad sister Billy, who is played by Sadler's real

(49:55):
life sister, Lizzy Davidson. So they're husband and dad. He's
gone to the shop one day to get tea, which
becomes a recurring kind of joke, and he's never returned,
and they're all trying to get themselves out of their
own personal and family troubles. It is so funny. It's
so moving. It's very bold. I absolutely loved this and
I think Inbetweeners is a good one. If you like

(50:15):
Sharon Horgan stuff. Yeah, yeah. Rain dogs, there's uh, they're
kind of comparison points, but it's also like they're quite
short episodes. So I almost watched it all in one
night because it was so fun and delightful to watch.

S1 (50:28):
It's really good. It's really good. And I've not heard
that many people talking about it, which kind of surprises
me for how high caliber I think it is. Like
Catt Sadler is obviously a brilliant writer. It's a great
idea and the dialogue and stories are so good. She's
an amazing performer as well. And Louise Brealey, like, I
remember her from Sherlock, the Benedict Cumberbatch, Martin Freeman one,

(50:50):
and I always found her presence in that really intriguing
and interesting, and seeing her play a very different role
is also like, it's so, so unexpected in terms of
the kinds of the kinds of turns each character makes
its pitch. This comedy, it does have in-between eerie vibes
in terms of these young people talking very frankly about
sex and the awkwardness of being a teenager, but it

(51:12):
is so unexpected in the ways it goes. You'll go
from a really funny scene to a very, very, very
dark and complicated statement from a character about a traumatic
experience that they've had. But I think it finds that
line where you are understanding the complex backstories of all
of these people that are making them act in certain ways.

(51:34):
And I guess that's where the, um, baby reindeer comp comes,
and it doesn't sort of treat their trauma as a,
as a pithy thing. You understand and you empathize, but
you also don't wallow in it. You don't feel bad,
you don't feel grim about the state of the world.
It's kind of empathetic and funny at the same time.
It's pretty rare for a show, I think, to nail

(51:54):
it that tone in that way.

S2 (51:56):
Yeah. Agree. An inferior show would just feel like a mess.
And we would say the tone was uneven, but it
does tread that balance so well. And the episodes are
sometimes focused on like one little bit like they go
camping or there's a funeral or and so it kind
of plays out in real time with them in a way.
And I think like it kind of reminded me when

(52:16):
I was watching succession, I used to want to go
back and listen to the lines, because there's just so
many good lines that you kind of feel like you're
still digesting one. And then something else has come up,
and I had that same feeling with this. There are
so many good lines and there's so much said with
so little, like short, sharp, pithy dialogue that, yeah, I
just thought it was, uh, very impressive. Yeah.

S1 (52:36):
These British comedy writers, maybe because so many of them
come from writing for stage, where they're at comedy festivals
or for for theatre. There's so much good dialogue that
you like are kind of trying to understand a joke,
and they've made two more already. But then this is
the kind of show I could actually watch like four, five, six,
seven seasons of watching these girls grow up and their

(52:56):
mums sort of deal with them. She's maybe like the
worst mum in television since Lucille Bluth from Arrested Development. Um,
but again, you kind of understand. It's like she's terrible.
The way she talks to her kids can be so
dismissive in a way that's like, funny and like a
bit shocking, but you still feel for her. That's the
crazy other thing about this show is that even though

(53:17):
so many of these characters are kind of like comic
relief because of how mean or like dumb they are,
even like the sort of boyfriend that the mum has
for a bit, who I find kind of annoying. 2
or 3 episodes in, you're like, oh man, this guy's
got his own shit going on as well. Like, I
really feel for this dude.

S2 (53:34):
Yeah, it's not a cruel show. It doesn't punch down.
It is empathetic to all of them. And even the mum,
it's like, yes, she's cruel, but part of the reason
she's cruel is that she's trying to get her kids
out of this. Situation. She she wants money. She's trying
to move them all forward because she's suffered in her
life from kind of having the same illusions as some
of her kids. So even the cruelness is kind of explained,

(53:57):
I thought the two sisters, just their bond and their
differences and the way they bounced off each other was
kind of really the highlight of the show. Their riposte
was amazing.

S1 (54:08):
Um, you said favorite comedy of the year so far,
I would agree. I mean, I think it's probably neck
and neck between this and the latest season of hacks
for me, which I am really, really enjoying. But as
far as like a new show goes, this is like
easily right up there and very excitingly was just renewed,
I think this month for a second season. That's pretty exciting. Yeah,
I know.

S2 (54:26):
That's the only thing I was sad about. And maybe
this is a strategy. A lot of these kind of
BBC comedies only are six parters. I think of starstruck
as well. Short, sharp season, you know, it does leave
you wanting more. You don't get tired of it. So
now I'm really keen for the second season and I.

S1 (54:39):
Hope it delivers, you know, this kind of classic sophomore
syndrome where Kat Sadler is like, I really I've been
working up to making this show. I've got these ideas.
You use them all. I hope she's got some stuff
in the tank. I mean, there's nothing to suggest the
quality will drop off, but we have just seen this
pattern before in television. I hope they find a way
to keep it going. And like, I think because the characters,

(55:00):
like you say, no one's punching down. It's not cruel.
They're the kinds of people you could just like, you know,
my my ongoing rant about how I want TV to
go on for years. I want to watch characters grow
and change. I want to feel something with them. I'd
love to just, like, watch these girls grow up and
grapple with like the real world and stuff as well.

(55:21):
I hope we get enough of that.

S2 (55:23):
Yeah, I reckon I've got high hopes for this also
because it's not like particularly plot driven. It's more like
kind of you're looking at these moments in time, and
it's not like the characters developing on a more micro
like apparently micro level, even though they're obviously big for them. Like,
I kind of I don't see it writing itself into
into a plot hole. So, um, yeah, second season, is
it coming out next year? Yeah, I.

S1 (55:43):
Think so.

S2 (55:44):
Yeah. Cool.

S1 (55:46):
Rock and roll. Or malware onto our Rig to Impress
Your Friends segment where we share something we watched, read,
listened to, consumed the world of culture in the past week.
What have you got for me other than Clarkson's Farm, obviously.

S2 (56:00):
I mean, everyone go watch it and then let's chat.
Let's chat.

S1 (56:03):
We can do a Clarkson's Farm episode.

S2 (56:05):
Do you want to? I think we could. I think
there's a lot of fun in that. A lot of
weather chat. And you love weather chat.

S1 (56:09):
Do I love weather chat?

S2 (56:10):
I feel like you're always talking about what the weather's.

S8 (56:12):
Like when you live in.

S1 (56:13):
Melbourne. It's important for your life to know what the
weather's like.

S2 (56:16):
Yeah that's true. You weren't you in the farmers? Okay.
My recommendation. Look, this is an odd one and I
didn't want to like this album. I thought my days
of Vampire Weekend were in my past. I. You know,
that was an old Mel. That was high school, Mel.
No one needed more vampire Weekend, but turns out I did.
Only God Was Above Us is their new album. Have

(56:36):
you listened to it?

S1 (56:37):
Um, this is one of those things where you not
having Instagram leads to these really funny, awkward moments. Because I,
I love this album. I went on like this kind
of deranged Instagram Story rant about it, about how I
thought it was one of the most transcendent pieces of
art in a while, and I thought how it encapsulated
both Vampire Weekend's trajectory from sort of nihilistic indie rockers

(57:03):
to becoming people who are talking about the decay of
the modern world and futility of things as horrific things
are happening all around us, and managing to do that
in a way that felt relatable to everyone our age
who grew up in that kind of pre-crisis, desiring music
that meant nothing, and then watching everything that we thought

(57:23):
we would be able to live into and enjoy crumble.
And then having Vampire Weekend and Ezra tell us all
about it. So yes, I really like this album.

S8 (57:29):
Wow. I've got to take about it.

S2 (57:32):
This was that was very well put. Look, this is
why this is why we get on so well. I
love Vampire Weekends new album. Yeah, I completely agree. There's
like something nostalgic in the sounds, right? Because I can
hear sounds of Old Vampire Weekend as well as something
very new. And mainly I love like after Kendrick and
Drake with their fighting and Taylor with all her breakups.
I love Vampire Weekend singing about getting old and being

(57:54):
disillusioned and memory and that that's speaking to me right now. Um,
love the song Capricorn. I put that on my I'm
making a Best Songs of 2020 list on Spotify, which
maybe I'll share with you at the end of the year. Um,
so Capricorn and Prep School Gangsters has gone on that
list for me, but, um, yeah, I think it's a
really pleasant listen.

S1 (58:12):
They're my two favorites as well. And I also love Hope,
which is the final track, which is like eight minutes
because I think it's really tongue in cheek and people
have interpreted differently. I know some critics have said, you know,
it's nice after an album that feels a bit bleak
and a bit blunt about the state of the world,
the song is called Hope and you feel pretty good.
I'm like, I think they've sort of taken the piss, uh,
of people who have hope. That's kind of like there's

(58:33):
nothing hopeful to enjoy. But again, a track that really
makes you think a whole album really that makes you
think about things but not feel bad about it, like
the music is fun and nice whilst evoking thoughts about
what is our culpability in the current moment in the
state of the world, in so many different ways, and
whether we can ever break out of it. I feel
like they're kind of saying, we tried guys, it didn't work.

(58:55):
Just don't bother. Just like, enjoy what you can. And
that's certainly a really solid statement for artists to make.
And what else do you want from artists other than
to have a stance and articulate it in a way
that sounds catchy and fun?

S2 (59:07):
Yeah, agree. Have you kept up with Vampire Weekend over
the years?

S1 (59:11):
Yeah, I have so father of the bride, which came out,
I think the end of 2019, or maybe the beginning
of 2020 was the end of 2019. That was one
of my favorite albums of that year as well. They're
just they're a really good band, and it's sort of
almost a joke because they're also like the whitest band ever,
and I love them, so take that.

S2 (59:27):
Yeah. Love it. You're complex. Okay. What's your rack?

S1 (59:31):
Um, I need a shout out, my friend Alex, who
put me onto the show. This is the one I
was watching last night instead of the budget. She texted
me about this show after listening to our conversation about
the idea of you because it stars Nicholas Galitzine. The
show is called Mary and George. It's a historical drama
dark comedy. It stars Julianne Moore, no less, as the

(59:53):
Countess of Buckingham, who molds her son, played by Nicholas Galitzine,
to seduce.

S2 (59:58):
You are.

S8 (59:58):
Complex.

S1 (01:00:00):
Uh, Nicholas Galitzine plays her son. Uh, she molds him
into seducing King James the First and becoming his lover.
It's loosely based on real historical events. It's great. This
is really fun. If you like the great, which I
think you did, I think you'll love this as well.
It's on binge here. It's really, really fun. And again, like,
I had no idea there was like, Julianne Moore and

(01:00:21):
Nicholas Galitzine were in this really interesting show. Uh. It's awesome.
Could not recommend this more Mary and George.

S2 (01:00:28):
Wow. I will give that a go. Is it the
same kind of very dark, sexy tone of the great?

S1 (01:00:32):
I would say it's a bit less comedic and like
more on the drama, but it is tonally very similar.
It's like it's it's in the same universe as as
the great. Like, let's take these things from history that
traditionally have been a bit prim and proper, and let's
just lean into how kind of fucked up all this was.
And also King James, turns out he had a lover.
Why have we talked about that on television before? Let's

(01:00:53):
make that a show.

S2 (01:00:53):
Wow. Put that in the put that in the credits.

S8 (01:00:57):
Who was it?

S2 (01:00:59):
All right. You bully me for a month, and then
I'll watch it.

S8 (01:01:01):
Rock and roll will do.

S1 (01:01:02):
Um, hey, I think we did a pretty good job
with that, Thomas.

S2 (01:01:05):
I think so. I hope he's having fun swimming with
the crocodiles. Whatever he's doing with them.

S1 (01:01:09):
I hope he hasn't been eaten yet.

S8 (01:01:10):
Yeah, well, you.

S2 (01:01:12):
Know, I imagine it would be his own fault if he.

S8 (01:01:14):
Was.

S1 (01:01:15):
Uh, Mel, thanks so much. See you next week. Bye.
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share it with
a friend! I'm Usman Farooqi, see.

UU (01:01:33):
You next week.