Netflix’s 'Hit Man' is 2024's best film. Plus, a Richard Linklater deep dive

Movies are back! Hit Man is a stylish, twisty romantic thriller from acclaimed director Richard Linklater and stars Glen Powell (Anyone But You, Top Gun: Maverick). It hits Netflix on Friday and might just be our favourite film of the year.

Osman, Thomas and Mel talk about how the film subverts expectations, balances comedy, romance and big ideas around identity that are central to Linklater's work. They also dive into the director's incredible and diverse filmography and share their favourite of his films.

Plus, a conversation about the latest culture war over hip-hop and Impress Your Friends.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Usman Farooqi and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri and
Thomas Mitchell. How are you guys doing?

S2 (00:19):
We're here with birthday boy Thomas Mitchell. Big day. Wearing
his new birthday boy jacket.

S1 (00:26):
Thank you. Is that. Is that a birthday jacket? You
look very handsome. Yes.

S3 (00:30):
Some fresh gear. It's like, you know, when you get
stuff for your birthday, you just wear all of the
new stuff at once. I thought I would do that
just to get it out of the way. And I
knew that I would have this exact conversation with Mel.
As soon as I walked in.

S2 (00:40):
He walked in with a birthday glow, his new jacket on.
You're just having a great day, aren't you?

S3 (00:45):
So far, so good. Yes.

S1 (00:47):
Thank you for coming in on both your birthday and
your week of leave. Very much appreciated.

S3 (00:53):
It's it's a pleasure. Always happy to talk with you guys. Uh,
and yeah, it feels pretty good so far. Sadly, though,
I did like, as much as I woke up and
I was like, this is great. I'm having a great time.
One of my first thoughts was like, I will never
be on the SMH young novelists list now.

S2 (01:08):
Uh, 35 and under. So you could still. Yeah. So
this is it.

S1 (01:11):
This is your last year. You've got to write the book.
You've got 12 months.

S3 (01:14):
All right. Well the work begins today guys.

S2 (01:16):
I mean, you've still got the Miles Franklin and the
Booker to aim for, so don't feel too disheartened.

S1 (01:21):
It's not the only significant event today. We recording this
on Wednesday, which is the morning of the best sporting
event of the year, game one of State of Origin.
By the time this comes out on Thursday, we will
either be devastated or ecstatic and honestly, probably most likely
devastated as as Blues fans. But how are you guys feeling?

(01:42):
You nervous? You're excited. You're full of dread.

S3 (01:45):
Well, I was just curious. Mel, what do you think
about the new halves combination for the Blues? And also
obviously McGuire coming in for Fittler?

S2 (01:50):
Okay, you've hit me with a hard question. I you
know I love sport, rugby league. I was into it
when I was younger because my dad was a huge
Bulldogs fan, and I don't know if I've ever told
you this story. I actually wrote Braith Anasta, the first
fan mail he ever received.

S1 (02:06):
I think you've told us this story on the podcast.

S2 (02:08):
On the like. Yeah. So that is my like all
of my, all of my knowledge of NRL is based
from like the 90s. So I'm or the early 2000
best era to be honest. If you want to talk
about Luke Bert Hindmarsh magic. Yeah, yeah yeah. Daryl Halligan
I think was he in the Bulldogs. Yeah. Good. Good kicker.
Oh you know that's I can talk about that but

(02:29):
current latrine Latrell Mitchell but.

S3 (02:33):
Uh latrine Mitcham. He didn't get picked sadly.

S1 (02:35):
I don't think there were any bunnies in this squad
are there. It's not.

S3 (02:38):
Good. No. Probably fair, though, to be honest. Osborne, I
know that breaks your heart, but, uh, look, I would
say lots of my rugby league friends have been, uh,
not very enthusiastic, but I walked past our esteemed colleague
Andrew Webster, um, rugby league journalist, legend. And he said
to me with a wink in his eye, Blues by four. So, wow.
Let's see.

S1 (02:57):
You heard it here first. Well, actually, by the time
you hear this, it will be last and you will
know what will have happened. Yeah.

S3 (03:02):
Queensland by 60.

S1 (03:03):
Thomas, I know you'll be watching you at home with
the family tonight. Are you going to be out and about?

S3 (03:08):
Uh, no, I'm going to stay at home. Uh, just
like my wife's gonna cook a meal and then. Yeah,
watch the game, and it'll be all very wholesome.

S2 (03:15):
And. Will you have a.

S3 (03:15):
Cake as I scroll through the Forbes 30 under 30?
Just with absolute hate in my eyes. And, Mel.

S1 (03:21):
You know, you said you don't really follow, uh, NRL
very closely, but will you be watching the game?

S2 (03:26):
I reckon I'll have it on in the background, because
it does amuse me when I watch it. And the
state of origin, I feel, is very heightened tension, which
I enjoy. So I think I'll, uh, I'll keep an
eye on it.

S1 (03:36):
We, we haven't actually mentioned, but just in case people
think this is like a paid for bit by our employer.
So the game is on nine, which is the company that, um,
that owns our paper as well. We're not saying it
because of that reason, but I thought in case people
pulled me up on it, I should just acknowledge that, uh,
just in case.

S3 (03:54):
I watch nine most nights anyway, just because the programming
is great, the content is amazing. And also it's like,
what else would you watch?

S1 (04:00):
You're not getting that pay rise, dude. Uh, look, today
on the show, we're going to be talking about one
of our most anticipated film releases of the year. It's
hit man. And we're also going to be talking about
the work of its director, Richard Linklater. I think, fair
to say, someone who means a lot to all of us,
particularly during formative periods of our lives when some of
his biggest films were released. But before we get to

(04:22):
Hit Man and Linklater, it's a bit of news that
I wanted to unpack with you guys. When you guys
were at school, what sound did they use to signify
the beginning of the school day?

S3 (04:35):
Bring. Melanie actually went to the same school, by the way,
just for those listening. Yeah.

S1 (04:39):
So you should be able to answer this.

S3 (04:41):
I'm going to throw to you. Well Mel was like
much I mean this also won't surprise anyone. Mel was
much more into school. Um, she was.

S2 (04:47):
The school into the school bell.

S3 (04:48):
Yeah, but you just, like, I can't remember, basically. So
I'm sure you. Was it just like.

S1 (04:51):
A standard bell or do they play some sort of.
You know, it was just.

S2 (04:54):
A standard bell.

S3 (04:55):
Right? Yeah. Yeah. I don't think there was anything fancy.

S1 (04:57):
Weirdly enough, at my school in year six, they played
Coldplay's yellow, uh, to signify, which is like pretty hectic, um,
pretty like downer of a song to signify the start.
I don't know what teacher was having a midlife crisis
and was like, this is how we all kind of
too young to really understand what the significance or, you know,
the depressive nature of that song. But really odd in hindsight.

S3 (05:20):
It would have been better if they'd played The Scientist
and you all walked backwards into the room like I didn't.

S2 (05:24):
Even know this was a thing. I thought they were standardized.
I didn't know you could just play a song. I
would have campaigned for that as part of the SK.

S3 (05:31):
Yeah. Got another angry letter from the cubby coat.

S1 (05:34):
Well, this week there's been a story that is at
the juncture of the primary education system and music in particular,
hip hop music. Uh, a school in Ramsgate, which I
believe is like your guy's part of town.

S3 (05:48):
Yeah, that's. I live, like one suburb over, and it's
basically the local primary school for us. And I can
confirm that the Sanssouci like, kind of private Facebook group
for the area has been, like, lit up the past
24 hours. Wow.

S1 (06:00):
All right, well, let's let's talk about what is going on.
So that school has also been using a song to
mark the beginning of the school day. It uses different songs,
but lately they've been playing a track by indigenous rapper Birdz.
The song is called Bagelen Bargain. It was released in 2021.
That year it came number 30 in the hottest 100,
so it's like a fairly popular song.

S4 (06:22):
Hey, patiently waiting for someone I ain't never seen before.
They say he's a captain of men. But they believe
in our love.

UU (06:28):
From the land of the white sky. He's self-righteous a
murder without license. Oh, with the spirit I'm the nicest
thinkin that I might just.

S4 (06:35):
Wait till night.

S1 (06:37):
One parent, though, was not very happy about the choice
of song. He went on to GB and said he
thought that this was inappropriate to play to children because
of the way it discussed colonisation, and white people in particular.
The song was actually written as part of a documentary
examining the anniversary of Captain Cook's arrival in Australia, and

(06:57):
it's written from the specific perspective of a Butchulla warrior
standing on K'gari Island, formerly known as Fraser Island, witnessing
cook and the colonists sail past. The language that got
this parent particularly upset was a reference to Cook and
British colonists as white devils. This became a big political
issue when the Education Minister in New South Wales weighed

(07:18):
in and said the song's lyrics were, quote, very concerning,
it's very.

S5 (07:22):
Concerning and I'm going to have to ask the department
to obviously come back to me on what has happened here, because,
I mean, we've been really consistent. I've been really consistent.
Schools are not places for things like that. Anything that
creates any sort of division we can't have in our schools.
So I'm going to have to get onto this ASAP.
This morning.

S1 (07:43):
The department apologised for any distress caused by the playing
of this song and has counselled the Ramsgate principal over
their song selection, their playlist making abilities. The New South
Wales premier, Chris Minns, said he didn't believe any kind
of rap was appropriate for schools and the opposition leader
in New South Wales, Mark Speakman, said he didn't want
young children exposed to what he described as inflammatory hip hop.

(08:08):
Now it's a fair bit going on, uh, with this one.
To me, it immediately felt like the latest chapter in
what feels like a pretty big moral panic of a
hip hop happening right now in Australia, particularly in New
South Wales. We've talked about it a bunch on the show.
The Easter show has banned the playing of hip hop
after some violent incidents there. One for the drill rap

(08:31):
group that we've spoken about a fair few times, have
announced the national tour. The one city that they're not
playing in is Sydney. There still seems to be this
kind of fear or this association. Of hip hop music
with violent incidents. This is interesting because it's slightly different.
It's not really about gang affiliations. It's an indigenous rapper
talking about their perspective on colonization, and that being seen

(08:52):
as being threatening to to some white parents, it seems.
What did you guys make of this? What's the Facebook
vibes on this one, Thomas?

S3 (09:00):
I mean, you can kind of imagine what vibes on
like suburban Facebook groups typically are. Uh, you know, it's
it basically is boomers kind of like up in arms
about it. Uh, I don't know. For me, it's a
kind of tricky one, I think, because, well, like, I
guess like very firstly, I do find the playing of
a song just a bit weird anyway, and you really

(09:20):
open yourself up to like, these exact kind of problems
where then you, like, accidentally trigger a culture war because of,
like people disagreeing like I did. I have seen that elsewhere,
like previous songs that they have used have been like
we're all in This Together by Ben Lee, or they
did Happy by Pharrell.

S1 (09:34):
Yeah, yeah.

S3 (09:34):
Like these are very different vibes. Like, I just think like.
And I also do think the idea or the image
of the Ramsgate principal being counselled by the Department of
Education is very funny. Like, do they sit him in
a room and, like, play this song like noise torture
or something? But yeah, I don't know, like I, I
kind of like I can, I can see why parents

(09:55):
have complained. Not that I agree with like the complaint itself,
but I mean, you play a rap song to a
bunch of kids and you're going to annoy some parents,
like it's just a reality.

S2 (10:03):
Yeah, I reckon it's less about hip hop and more
about the the nature of the way that the artist
is talking about colonization. I don't really comprehend how this
song is so divisive. It's about indigenous sovereignty, the endurance
of indigenous culture, questioning of terra nullius. It's about, um,
it starts and ends with indigenous language, which has been
recognized as important in preserving indigenous culture. And this is

(10:28):
essentially what they should be talking about in history class.
So I think rather than, you know, there should be
a teaching moment for them to discuss all the concepts
in this song. And then I was kind of thinking like,
what song would be, you know, I was thinking of
Australia's national songs in quotes like, what are the what
are they going to play Men Down Under, like the anthem? Maybe.

S1 (10:48):
Maybe people want the school to start just with a
rendition of the anthem every day.

S3 (10:51):
Yeah, I like, I reckon if, if I had to
choose like a famous Australian song to really get me
jazzed to go and do geography and like, please play
this in the final edit like, whoa, Black Betty. Blam blam.

UU (11:04):
Blam blam blam blam blam blam blam blam. Damn thing gone. Wow.

S3 (11:11):
That would fuckin bang. That would be amazing. Way to get.

S2 (11:14):
Jazz. I thought you were gonna pick Paul Kelly gravy song.

S3 (11:16):
No. Again, that's, like, too much of a but yeah,
Black Betty that you're, like, going into class and you're, like,
keen to learn Sweet Caroline.

S2 (11:23):
That could get the singing.

S1 (11:24):
I think one of the, one of the things that
wasn't really emphasized as much in a lot of the
reporting on this is the school, as you said, Thomas
was playing like Happy and Ben Lee. But it's reconciliation
Week at the moment, and I think they wanted to
play an indigenous artist. And it's sort of interesting, isn't it?
Because to your point, Mel, like on one hand, this
is clearly not really about hip hop. Well, the dad's

(11:44):
complaint wasn't I don't like rap music. It was I
don't like the way that these artists are talk or
this particular artist birds is talking about, you know, white
people invading Australia, but it's like it's reconciliation. We're going
to play indigenous artists, but it seems to be. Can't
they just sing about nice things? Like, why does it
need to be something that is actually about their experiences
and livelihood? And I feel like that fits into a

(12:06):
pretty like regular trope about the way that not just Australians,
but like every kind of majority culture treats artists from
marginalized backgrounds. It's like you can make music but don't
actually talk about your experiences, because that's kind of confronting.
But what I find even more strange about this, when
the education minister is like schools should not be a
place of division. I mean, schools are taught about colonization,

(12:27):
like these things are discussed in primary schools. So there's
like that side to it. And yeah, I agree with
you that it's not really about hip hop, but it
was very interesting how quickly the politicians made it about
hip hop. Like Chris Minns and Mark Speakman, the opposition leader,
were like, rap just doesn't belong in schools, which seems
like a it seems such a bizarre sentence to say
out loud. It feels like these guys understanding of hip

(12:48):
hop is a little bit like in the past, hip
hop has been the biggest genre of music ever. Like,
it just is odd to me to say that does
not belong in a school. This is what young people
listen to.

S3 (13:01):
Yeah, it felt that felt like a just a weird
kind of like drive by moment to have another crack
at hip hop and be like, oh yeah, rap is bad.
And it's like, man, now you're just embarrassing yourself. Like,
had this been a song by Neil Finn that mentioned, like,
you know, White Devil, would they like their furore be
the same? Um, as I said, I do live in
the area and it is an area of like pretty mixed, like,

(13:21):
you know, backgrounds and stuff. Lots of Italians, lots of Greeks. Um,
so yeah, it is interesting and like, you know, I've
got lots of friends whose kids go to San Souci
Public School and Ramsgate Public School and yeah, I'm perhaps
maybe they should have done, like a Nick Skitz mix
or something. Yeah.

S6 (13:36):
Skitz mix to welcome kids to school. That's wild.

S2 (13:40):
I think. Yeah. The linking to hip hop is completely insane,
like part of a school's role should be to teach
students how to understand modern media and pop culture, like
giving them media literacy is a fundamental skill that we
should teach in school, so to be like a whole
genre is not appropriate is wild.

S3 (13:58):
But I just think as well the funny, like not
funny but maybe sad thing and like, you know, we've
already done the kind of non disclaimer, but it just
feels like there's such a copy and paste pattern. Now
for when stuff like this flares up, there's like an
incident around something racial. And then like whoever is concerned, like,
gets on the phone to Ben Fordham at two GB,
which is obviously a really easy way to blast it
out and trigger a culture war. Like it's become a
I feel like every 2 or 3 weeks now, we're

(14:20):
having a conversation about something like this, and it happens
in the exact same way. Yeah.

S1 (14:23):
And I mean, like, you know, talkback radio, this has
been a part of it for a long time. And
this is how talkback radio works. There's a concerned citizen
angry about an issue. It gets litigated like that's on
one hand that's like sort of just like how it works.
It's just interesting how quickly politicians buy into it. Like,
I feel like there's a world in which politicians just say,
that's a matter for the school. Or they say, like, look,
maybe there's something about how we educate kids on colonization.

(14:46):
But also, I'm the premier. I don't really want to
talk about hip hop. Being played at a school like
that just doesn't feel like it needs to go that
big so quick. And to your point, it feels like
that is happening regularly. But yeah, I mean, I don't
really like it seems like this song is not going
to be on the playlist of schools in New South Wales,
and maybe they should go back to bells or whatever,
but I don't want to name the school because I

(15:08):
want to get this parrot in trouble. But like someone
was telling me that they, their kids do a module on, uh,
Briggs's January 26th, which is also a very like, intense
song about the impacts of colonization on indigenous people. That's
a very popular song. Birds was signed by Briggs to
his label Bad Apples. Bird sort of sees himself in
that sort of similar vein. So this is like a
part of Australian music culture now, an indigenous culture. This

(15:31):
is where a lot of indigenous artists are finding the
space to tell their stories, that they've not really been
allowed to tell for a very long time. So I
kind of hope this doesn't turn into.

S4 (15:39):
A.

S1 (15:39):
Massive culture war about, well, rappers aren't allowed to talk
about their views on colonization. That's offensive and divisive in Australia.
This is kind of the point of their storytelling.

UU (15:50):
Shoreline caught me coming. I cross my heart, I take
it from me. My army ain't gonna wanna try. Oh, my.

S1 (16:19):
Okay, so one of the movies that I think all
three of us have been very, very, very excited about
comes out this Friday on Netflix. It's the latest film
by Richard Linklater, probably best known for the before trilogy
starring Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy. He also directed school
of Rock, Dazed and Confused, and Boyhood. Hitman is based
on a true story written by journalist Skip Hollandsworth in

(16:42):
The Texas Monthly magazine back in 2001. No.

S7 (16:47):
No, no, I don't buy it. What? You're not a hitman.
You can't be. Mentally looking you up at nothing. It's
like you don't even exist.

S8 (16:58):
I guess I'm just your fantasy.

S7 (17:02):
So what's the biggest difference between the real you and
your occupation?

S9 (17:09):
By the way, my name is Gary Johnson, and I'm
a fake hit man. The film is.

S1 (17:18):
Co-written by Linklater and Glen Powell, who was also the
star of the film alongside Adria Arjona. The movie's about
a part time undercover police officer in New Orleans who
poses as a hit man to arrest people trying to
hire him. Things get complicated for this pretend hit man
when he meets a woman who tries to hire him

(17:40):
to knock off her husband. Kind of takes the movie
in a much more thrilling and, like, pretty damn sexy direction.
It was really interesting watching this movie off the back
of our conversation about 1999 movies, because I feel like this,
from its premise to its execution, is exactly the kind
of movie, sort of stylish, mid-budget drama rom com that

(18:00):
we used to get heaps of back in the day,
and we keep saying we want more of these kinds
of films. I thought it was really, really great. I
think it does a really interesting job at subverting your
expectations of what a movie called hitman is going to
be about. It's like not an action packed thriller, but
it is still really entertaining and really fun. It's way
more of an examination of ideas around identity, trying to

(18:23):
find meaning and purpose in life, who we are as
people versus what we project outwards to others. Add to
that this kind of dash of sexy rom com vibes,
courtesy of the very, very, very great performances by both
Powell and Arjona. I think ultimately you just have. Yeah,
like I said, a fun, exciting, thought provoking film. And
my only wish with it is that. It was coming

(18:45):
out in cinemas. I feel like this would be such
a great film to watch with a group of people
in a movie theater. I also think it would make
a lot of money in a year where movies are
otherwise struggling. But yeah, when it was playing at the
film festival circuit getting rave reviews, big studios just didn't
offer much up and Netflix snapped it up for a
cool $20 million. So I want to talk to you
guys about all of that a little bit later on.

(19:06):
But initial takes on hitman. How'd you guys find it?

S2 (19:09):
I completely agree with you. I thought it was very funny, smart.
It's a very tight film. It sweeps you up with
its self-assuredness and it really carries you away. And there
are continual plot shifts that are really surprising and keep
you interested in the film the whole way through. Um,
so I had a great time watching it.

S3 (19:28):
Yeah. Look, I really liked it too. Um, I will
admit that my upon first watch I like it had
a big weekend, and so I think I was watching
it in the wrong frame of mind. So I enjoyed
it as we kind of like, briefly discussed off air,
but I was like, oh, okay. And then now having
like sat back on it and also, I think kind
of being in a bit of a Linklater headspace, I

(19:49):
actually do really, really appreciate this movie. It's much cleverer
than I was probably prepared for. Like, you know, like
on a hungover Sunday evening. Um, I still have big
question marks around Glen Powell, as you know, kind of
the savior of the leading man. But I think in
terms of like Linklater bringing his skill set and his,
like thematic approach into a new, especially like the Netflix format,

(20:10):
like he's he's kind of snuck in one of the
most interesting films of the year, like onto a streaming
platform that millions of people will watch.

S1 (20:16):
I think that's a really good way of putting it.
I think the movie is so smart in how it
rewards like a casual watch or a sort of more
engaged watch. I think a lot of people can just
watch this movie and see to hot people, like, be
in this sort of fun, sexy film. But then the
more you think about it and the more you watch,
you're like, oh, this movie is really saying a lot
of fascinating things about being at a certain stage in
your life about, you know, this, this question of how

(20:40):
do we create an image or an idea of ourselves
and how does that sit with who we really are
versus the person we want to be in different sorts
of situations? I think, like, I want to talk about
the Glen Powell thing because the movie does hinge on him.
He's like the coward. He's the star. He's the driving
force behind the movie. At the beginning. He's this kind
of daggy uni lecturer moonlighting as an undercover cop. This

(21:03):
is also a hilarious thing about America, where you can
be a part time undercover cop while you're a.

S6 (21:08):
Because it's based on.

S2 (21:09):
A true story.

S6 (21:10):
Yeah, I.

S1 (21:10):
Know, I know what a.

S3 (21:11):
Only in America would they be like. Yeah, yeah. Once
you're done. Like, you know, teaching philosophy. Can you come
and moonlight as an undercover? So weird.

S6 (21:17):
I wish all.

S2 (21:18):
Cops knew philosophy.

S1 (21:20):
Um, probably something with, like, budget cuts. They can't afford
full time police or something. Um, but, yeah, he has
to adopt so many different personas in this movie, both as, like,
the primary character, but also the conceit of the film
being he disguises himself as different versions of a hit
man to try to entrap or capture the people that
that he's going after. I think he was awesome in this.

(21:41):
Like I, we discussed this last week. I'm a big
fan of Glen Powell. You know, he was discovered in
a way by Richard Linklater as well. He cast him
in Fast Food Nation, and then he got his big
starring role in Everybody Wants Some, um, which I'm very
keen to chat to you guys about. I did a
bit of a Linklater rewatch over the past week, and
that is such a great movie, and he's really good
in it. He's in two of the biggest movies last

(22:02):
couple of years, Top Gun Maverick and Anyone But You.
This is a role which I think he gets to
be a bit more interesting and also have a lot
of fun. I thought he was awesome. What did you
guys think Tom is? You still not totally convinced by
the Powell hype machine?

S3 (22:15):
I am definitely not convinced. Also, I just think it's
so funny because obviously we spoke about Glen Powell last week.
That list, you know, The Hollywood Reporter list of ten,
you know, hot new things in Hollywood. A friend of
mine texted me afterwards because Osmond spoke at length about
his admiration for Glen Powell. And a friend of mine
texted me after I was like, I honestly thought you
were talking about Glenn Close. Why is Osmond so obsessed
with Glen Powell? And I was like, look, man, I

(22:36):
couldn't agree with you more. I mean, that.

S1 (22:38):
Says more about you and your weird friends. Glen Powell
is a big star. He's in twisters, which is one
of the biggest movies of the year coming out this year.

S3 (22:45):
Now he is like, I mean, he, I, I know
who he is. I don't get him in Glenn Close
confused anymore. But I still just think, you know, he
was good in this. I just I still just don't
really get it from him. And, I mean, I am
increasingly aware that I am in the minority, like, you know,
who am I to tell Richard Linklater, who to put
in his new great movie? But I just think the
movie is good and his performance is still really good,

(23:06):
but I still like, look at him and just find
him not super engaging. When I think about the like
leading men or women that I really love to watch
and who I could watch, like really do anything, he
does not fall into that category for me.

S2 (23:16):
I thought he was great in this, and he did
co-write it with Richard Linklater as well.

S3 (23:20):
When it says he co-wrote it, is that is he
like the Affleck in that situation? No, I.

S1 (23:24):
Don't think it's interesting because when you see Linklater's talked
a bit about the story of the film coming together
and he read that article. So Linklater is a Texas guy. He,
you know, famously shoots and works and lives in Texas.
A lot of his movies are set in Texas, and
Texas is like a big character in his films. Uh,
Powell's also from Texas, from Austin. But obviously different generation.

(23:44):
And so Linklater is like, I got this call during
the pandemic from Glen Powell. And he's like, hey, man,
you've got to read this Texas Monthly article. And Linklater
is like, yeah, I read that when you were like
in grade six, like, what are you talking about, man? Like,
this is like a very famous story from when you
were a child and like, it's a pandemic and we
just didn't really have anything to do. And so we
spent a few years working around. And how did we
take this true story? And then they ended up changing

(24:07):
quite a few bits of it. So now when the
movie opens, the title card is like, it's somewhat true
because I took a fair few liberties to have a
bit more fun. It does feel like he was a
bit more like hands on with this. Um, but Mel,
that was a bit of an aside. I cut you
off as you were about to share your powers. As
you're about.

S3 (24:20):
To character assassinate Glen Powell. Come with me.

S2 (24:23):
I thought he was really good in this. I thought
he was very funny, and I thought his character was
really good. The name Gary gave me so much joy.
Like just the fact his name is Gary brought every
time it was mentioned, it was kind of used humorously.
And there's a.

S1 (24:41):
Gag about it, right? Where someone's like, your name's Gary's, like,
I know, I know.

S6 (24:44):
Yeah.

S2 (24:45):
I thought that was very funny. There's this great shot
early on where Glen Powell is in his home, and
he's at this tiny table for one, because he lives alone.
He drives a Honda Civic, and I love that he waters.
He's like plants and he's feeds his fish before he
has his own dinner. I just thought the character was
really good. And as the hitman roles he takes on

(25:08):
get progressively more and more insane, I thought they became
funnier and funnier. And so I was won over by
Glen Powell. I agree with you. Last week I wasn't
sold on him as a as an actor, as a vibe.
Now I'm completely on the Glen Powell train.

S3 (25:22):
Yeah, but this is the thing. I also said he's
good in it and I thought he was he was
good in it. But like is this. And because I
think a lot of the narrative around this movie is
that this is the star making role for Glen Powell.
This is the Glen Powell project that's gonna like really like,
you know, send him into the stratosphere. And I still
just don't think it will. Like not because he was
bad in it, but just because I don't know if
he has that in him. Um, that's kind of my

(25:44):
take on it. Even though I thought he was, like,
funny and stuff. Like, it's not the same feeling I
get when I was watching, like Prime Gosling or Prime
Pitt or Prime DiCaprio.

S1 (25:52):
I think there's something about Powells performances, and his general
sort of way of being is that it feels effortless
when he's acting like it just sort of feels like
he's just come in from backstage and he's just doing him,
and maybe there's a bit of that that is like,
he's not really going for it. He's not inhibiting something.
But I think he kind of is. And I think

(26:12):
in this movie he does play these different characters. It's
almost like a movie that is clearly partly designed to
let him show off his acting chops and not just
be like the hunk that he was and anyone but
you or the, you know, the fighter pilot and Top
Gun Maverick. But yeah, I can. I understand what you're saying, Thomas,
because you he doesn't feel like he's doing something like
Brad Pitt or even like Ethan Hawke at their prime,

(26:34):
where they're really seriously acting, and they've been to the
Lee Strasberg acting school and they're going for it. And
he's probably picking roles that are still a little bit
within his comfort zone. He hasn't been pushed yet, but
I feel like this is an example of his ability
to really show off a wider range. And I think
like the other thing about this film, and this goes
to your point, Mel, about the way that he's character

(26:54):
is so fleshed out, like we find out about his job,
we find out about the car he drives. He's got
these two cats. He has an ex-wife who comes in.
This is a one hour and 55 minute movie. It's
pretty tight, and you just don't get that kind of
script writing or character building in so many films, particularly
films on streamers, characters are just like two dimensional kind
of cardboard cutouts. They play this role, whereas in this movie,

(27:15):
every character, even characters that are just in it for
a minute, you just get such a sense that they
are real and have a real life, and they've reached
this point in their career, and that's why they're doing X, Y,
and Z. It's really remarkable how much it manages to
pack in.

S2 (27:27):
Yeah, totally. And that is absolutely the joy of watching
a Richard Linklater film is the dialogue is so incredible
and touches on so much. It's a way of like,
we don't speak like Richard Linklater's characters speak, but he
still manages to make it seem authentic and real. And
there are so many one liners in this that make

(27:48):
you laugh out loud without feeling like they're a one
liner joke. It's very subtly funny.

S1 (27:55):
So this movie is a bit of a two hander.
The other main character, Adria Arjona, mentioned before, briefly. Had
you guys seen her in anything before this film?

S3 (28:04):
No, literally never seen her before, ever. But it was
like very much a quick Google to be like, what's
she been in? She was very, very good. Yeah.

S2 (28:09):
I think this is definitely another star in the making.

S1 (28:11):
Yeah, she I only seen her in this movie six underground,
which came out a few years ago and, and all
the Star Wars show, which she's got like a small
but pretty good role. She was awesome in this. And
the chemistry between the two of them was like, off
the charts. It reminded me of one of my favorite films, uh,
out of Sight Soderbergh film with JLo and Clooney. And
the way that it sort of they're on these opposing sides.

(28:32):
It's like a romance that isn't supposed to happen, but
it slowly starts to burn. And it does had a
lot of those vibes in this film. Yeah, I think
she totally killed it. Yeah, because.

S3 (28:41):
She really like for that specific character, you know. You
have to really nail that. Like, is she playing him
like up until the, you know, towards the end when
it becomes clear what is going on. Like you're really
not sure of her intentions. Um, and because, you know,
Paul's character is so like, it's all kind of there. Um,
I thought she was such a good foil for him.
And just like the way, you know, she would like

(29:01):
certain look, she would have or certain ways she would
word stuff like, I feel like she really kept both
audience and Paul's character. Like, what? What is her intention here? Yeah.

S2 (29:09):
She constantly managed to pull off that shape shifting sense.
And there was always the playfulness was in there, miscommunications
with each other. So you are always on the edge
of your seat, but not in an uncomfortable way about
who's playing who and where the film's going to go.

S1 (29:34):
We've talked a bit this year about the role of
sex in cinema and, you know, movies like challenges being
called like the sexiest movie in a while and bringing
sex back to cinemas. And we talked about how there's
like no actual real explicit sex scenes in that this movie,
it's not really been sold as like a super sexy movie,
but it feels, again, like a bit of a throwback
to kind of sexy thriller in the 90s where there

(29:55):
was like a bunch of sex and it just sort
of is there, and it's normal for it to be there.
And it, you know, makes sense in terms of the characters,
arcs and whatever. I'm a bit surprised that they're not
pushing like the rom com angle as much, because that
is such a way to get people to watch a movie.
But were you guys surprised by how steamy this kind
of got?

S2 (30:14):
Look, I don't this will upset you because I know
you guys probably loved the sex scenes. I thought it
was a bit excessive. Not in terms of, like, don't make.

S1 (30:21):
Us sound like.

S6 (30:22):
14 year old boys. Well, like, have.

S1 (30:25):
You edited by saying it was important to the story
and the.

S6 (30:28):
Characters?

S2 (30:29):
Why not? Because of the Graphicness or anything like that.
There was just a lot of it that kind of
felt like unnecessary. Like I almost got it after the
first two moments of passion, and then it kept going
and going and going, which I didn't mind, but I
just didn't think it was really essential to the meet.
Cute that this film actually is beneath the thriller angle
of it. So I don't know. I think you could

(30:50):
have cut some of that and you wouldn't have lost anything. Like,
I just felt like the point was being hit home. Yes,
we get it. These people have amazing chemistry over and
over and over again.

S3 (30:58):
Are you saying Linklaters in his creepy era now?

S6 (31:01):
I don't think it's creepy.

S2 (31:03):
Like, I understand it's fun to watch, right? But, you know. Yeah,
I think it was almost too much.

S3 (31:09):
I was fine with it. Um.

S6 (31:11):
But, you.

S3 (31:11):
Know, they're both, like, super hot Glen Powell, like, you know,
hasn't like, you know, he's still been hitting the gym
obviously post anyone, but he looks amazing. Uh, I really
love her. And, um, was happy for them to be, like,
nude on screen together. Also, I thought it was like,
you know, all jokes aside, ha! Thomas is gross. But like,
I did think it was kind of important to the
characters because they then start to build in these, like,

(31:32):
you know, there is there's this whole thing about the
signing of the contract when they're like making, you know,
these like rules within their relationship that are kind of
related to sex and also the kind of strange framework
they have to exist in because of the, you know,
what's going on in the movie. Like everything played into
the development of these two. So I thought it was
like fun. And again, like especially off the back of,
you know, we spoke a lot about sex last week

(31:52):
because of the 1999 thing. This did feel like a throwback.
And and yeah, I mean, it's just it's just part
of the formula. Yeah.

S1 (31:58):
And they're kind of, you know, their, um, interactions, role
play features pretty heavily. And I feel like that's not
even the subtext. It's a subtext. And the text of
the film is the roles that we all play in,
in the world when we're going on a first date,
when we're meeting someone, when we're at home versus at
work and in the bedroom. And I feel like it.
It's interesting that link light is like, no, we're going

(32:20):
to go there. This is how, you know, like in
some some scenes, we should say that Powell's character is
an academic who lectures on like philosophy. And there are
some scenes where they cut to him in the classroom
and he's like, this is the point of the movie.
You know, these ideas of Freudian ideas of, you know,
the ID and the ego and the superego and whatever.
That is what we're discussing. And maybe that was like

(32:40):
a little bit too hand-holding, but it kind of worked
for me. And, and I think it it helped you.
It probably nudged you a bit. Maybe there are some
rule philosophy heads that are like, I just didn't need that.
I got it. But I think for the kinds of
people who are going to be watching this on a
Sunday afternoon on Netflix or whatever, it helps push you
into thinking about those themes of the film, those themes
of identity and who we are and who we try

(33:02):
to be, which have been part of Linklater's work for,
for since day one, basically. And there's this opening scene
where one of his students lays out, I think, Linklater's thesis,
she's like, you know, this quote that you've just recited
is about seizing the day, making the most of life,
just going for it. And that is a part of like,
Dazed and Confused. It's a part of Everybody Wants Some.
It's part of this movie. But it was also really

(33:23):
interesting because this constant thematic focus on you can create
your own version of yourself. You can be whoever you
want to be. Do you want to be a hitman?
Do you want to be a teacher? Do you want
to be a sort of like, you know, a gangster,
a hitman? Do you want to be a kind of
nerdier one? Do you want to be this country bumpkin?
It just felt not disconnected from current conversations we're having
in society about identity, and whether it's set for you,

(33:45):
or whether you get to choose who you are in
terms of your sexuality, your gender identity, whatever. And it
was interesting hearing Richard Linklater on a New York Times
podcast be like, yeah, no, that's exactly what I was
trying to get across. Like, I think it's one of
the most fascinating bits of our current moment that we've
trying to have the conversation around you. You are who
you tell people you are. And that's what I wanted

(34:07):
to do with the movie. I found that a really
fascinating part of it.

S2 (34:10):
Yeah, I think that's so true. And it's probably worth noting, too.
It does where these philosophical underpinnings very lightly. Like on
one hand, you can imagine this being studied in a
philosophy class, but you could also watch this and not
really consider it at all, like it doesn't feel heavy handed.
And as well as an assessment on the mutability of
the self, an ongoing interest of philosophers, I. Really sold

(34:34):
this as a take on cinema as well, because it's
really in deliberate dialogue with films about hitman and the
fantasy of cinema. And as the self is unravelling, so
is the cinematic role of the hitman, because there are
really deliberate. Jokes or winks to things like John Wick
and Pulp Fiction and Leon the Professional, the killer, Leroy, Texas.

(34:57):
They all kind of are snuck in there, and the
different hitman plots and the different hitman characters are really
played with. And so I thought, as much as a
film about individuality and the self, this was a film
about cinema. Yeah.

S3 (35:09):
And it's funny because I, you know, I think we've
obviously all been like deep in, in Linklater land and,
you know, this is a guy who, when he was
getting his start in film, was seeing 650 films a year,
which is like that's like near farooqi levels of cinema numbers.

S1 (35:24):
He's posting up, man. That's crazy.

S3 (35:25):
Like, but like he would go and see three and
four films a day and he talks about, you know,
like in I think the same New York Times interview
he talks about, oh, look, people are always kind of
heralding the death of cinema and, and it's always under
attack from everything, you know, like, as it has been
for years and years and years. But I did think
that was interesting too, because like the hitman genre has
gone through so many kind of different changes and I
would say has been in a bit of a like

(35:46):
there's been a renaissance of it off the back of
like the John Wick's and stuff, but there's so many
like kind of funny and like sharp observations, you know,
in this film, even at the very start, there's like
a lot of voiceover from power. But he talks about
how like everyone thinks there are all these hitmen out there,
but like, no one actually knows any because they don't
really exist. And I just thought that was like very,
very funny kind of getting in, you know, I guess
a bit of Linklaters like thoughts on, on like cinema

(36:07):
and the changing nature of it, but also like this
whole concept of the hitman that we're so obsessed with
in pop culture. But like, is it something we've just
kind of created for ourselves?

S1 (36:16):
Yeah, I love that read on the movie. And it
is sort of this acknowledgement in a way, of this
trope that is like driven cinema since the 50s. But
I think even earlier, I think some of the first,
like hitmen genres and films were in the 30s. Linklaters like, I'm,
I'm reflecting on what this era was when cinema was

(36:36):
great and I'm sort of like stripping it apart and
being like, this is all bullshit and lies and everything
that you grew up thinking is real is based on
movies telling you stuff, and that's not really what's going on.
There's even this montage at the start of the movie.
I love when films just break the fourth wall like Babylon,
the ending of Babylon, where it's just like a two
minute montage of every big film going back 100 years
is one of my favorite things I've ever seen in

(36:57):
a movie theater. I cried and I clapped. Um, and
then he does it to Stewart. He's just, like, literally
referencing the history of hitmen in cinema's hitmen. Feels like
a weird word to say, the plural of hitman. But
I was going to ask you guys why. Why is
this renaissance happening like it was last year? We were
talking about the killer. It's funny to have a movie
called The Killer by like, David Fincher, one of the
biggest directors who came out of that indie movement in

(37:19):
the 90s. Linklater another one coming out of that, using
the idea of a hitman to explore these bigger questions
about the way the world works. Because we talk about
the killer. That's not really a movie about a hitman,
that's a movie about being a gig worker in the
modern capitalist world. This movie is not really about being
a hitman. It's about being a guy in his like,
40s trying to figure out where the hell he's at.
What is it about that kind of character that makes

(37:41):
it so ripe for these sorts of interrogations.

S6 (37:43):
I.

S3 (37:44):
Guess, where, like, I don't know, we're now more than
ever kind of similar to what we were just talking
about in terms of identity. I feel like we're very
much all like, kind of fixated or obsessed or forced
into thinking about, like, you know, the self. And so
like the our sense of self and who we are
in the modern world. And that's such a different thing
to so many people. And it feels like for lots
of people, you know, the rules are changing on who
we are or who we can be or what identity is.

(38:06):
And maybe because like a hit man at its purest
form is like someone who is paid to take someone
else out. It feels like a big kind of like, um,
you know, like an easy way to represent a conversation
around that. Like, I don't know, it is funny that,
you know, these important directors who do grapple with a
lot of these big themes seem to be revisiting it
and revisiting it like, I don't know, will we get
some kind of weird, I don't know, like You're a

(38:27):
Hit Man by Baz Luhrmann, like some kind of fantastic
musical number or you guys, you.

S1 (38:32):
Guys have a hired a hit man?

S3 (38:34):
Not recently.

S2 (38:37):
But it is one.

S3 (38:39):
You would actually be quite good. You'd be the.

S2 (38:41):
Yeah, go under the radar. I'd have the Glenn Powell
kind of. Yeah.

S6 (38:44):
You would. Yeah. No one no one ever suspects you.

S3 (38:47):
That's right.

S1 (38:48):
Have you ever hired a hitman?

S2 (38:50):
Uh, not at this stage, but I won't rule it out.
You guys are.

S1 (38:53):
Being so cagey. I feel like there's a very straightforward answer.

S6 (38:55):
To say.

S1 (38:56):
No, I don't know any. I've not heard one, and
I wouldn't. You're like, I don't want to rule it out. Yeah, but.

S6 (39:01):
You're on the record.

S1 (39:02):
Saying, I would definitely not commit this crime.

S3 (39:05):
Yeah, but I mean, like, you don't really want to, like,
admit it to the person that you've hired them for.

S6 (39:09):
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay. I mean.

S2 (39:11):
Don't you think the hitman embodies the state of the
modern individual? That alienation? It's a it's a solo. I mean,
I'm thinking this is the spot, but work with me here.
This is what you were.

S3 (39:22):
After when I answered and you went. We got to
wait till. Mel.

S6 (39:24):
Yeah, yeah, it's a solo job.

S2 (39:26):
It's a very lonely job, isn't it? It's a job
where you are a body for hire by a corporation
or a person that you're often not have any links
with any kind of personal responsibility between which many of
us feel like in the modern workplace. And it's a
very violent job. I think it's probably come back into
fashion because The Hitman is something we can all relate

(39:47):
to in our contemporary society.

S1 (39:50):
I wonder whether part of it is also these directors,
at this stage in their lives, see a little bit
of themselves in these characters. I think someone like Fincher,
who has made these like really fascinating, independent, wacky movies,
but has also worked in the commercial world and made
ads and sort of, you know, done big studio features
as well. I feel like he was putting a lot
of himself in that character, like even to the point

(40:11):
where at the start of that movie where Fassbender is
looking down the scope of the gun and he's just
talking about, I've got to get that shot. You've got
to get the framing right on that shot. Get the
zoom right, you've got to get fuck, I missed the
shot like that. Just feels like you could, word for word,
make that about a director making a movie. And I,
you know, it's often about, like, adopting, entering a new world,
like creating new characters, figuring it out as you go along,

(40:34):
like improvising all that sort of stuff is feels like
the language directors use. So I think maybe at this
point they're kind of also making movies about themselves a
little bit potentially.

S3 (40:43):
Yeah. But I mean, with that being said, Linklater in
some ways would be an awful hitman because it took
him fucking 12 years to make boyhood. It's like really
putting in the hard yards, like to make his, you know,
his official kill. I suppose.

S2 (40:54):
You got to bide your time to make a good.

S6 (40:55):
Hit. Exactly.

S3 (40:56):
Osman, have you ever hired a hitman?

S1 (40:57):
I've never hired a hitman. See? Easy to.

S3 (41:00):
Say. Be a lot cooler if you did.

S6 (41:02):
So.

S1 (41:03):
Very quickly. Want to talk about this question of where
this movie is being released and where most people will
watch it. And I feel. I feel a bit conflicted
about this because we all love cinema. We love going
to the cinema. The movies are having a tough time
this year. I think this film could be like a
box office success if it was released in theaters. It
just feels like it has that energy. It's short, you know,

(41:24):
like a lot of different people can come into it
from different levels, as we've discussed. But on the other hand,
like Netflix is massive, so this movie will probably get
seen by more people, by being on the biggest streamer
in the world than it would if it was just
in the movie theater. But sometimes I wonder, like, you know,
something like anyone but you. When a movie is released
in the theaters, it creates this huge buzz. So even

(41:46):
if you don't see it, then, like you, Thomas, you
know that it's a big feature. You know, people are
going to see it. Then it hits streaming a couple
of months later and it has this second life. I
kind of feel like that's how this movie could have worked.
But am I just like in my head about this
stuff because I think about box office too much? Do
you guys think it matters where people end up seeing
this film?

S3 (42:01):
No, I kind of tend to agree. I think this
film and like the message will get diluted because it
just is exclusively on Netflix in much the same way. Like,
you know, as I admitted at the top of this,
like when I watched it, I was like a bit
hungover and stuff, and I was like, okay, this is
like a fun Netflix movie. But I do think a
lot of people will probably like, digest it in that way.
Whereas if it was at the movies and then when

(42:22):
you've got it as like, you know, a Linklater film,
he doesn't make heaps of movies. It would kind of
like become more an event to people and then like,
it gets a bit of buzz around it, and then
by the time it hits streaming, it's like already got,
you know, it's kind of trajectory. Whereas the fact that
it's just going to like Land on Netflix this Friday,
I don't know, like I think some people will be like, oh,
it's like another Netflix movie, like, you know, one of
the Ryan Reynolds ones, or like, it's just going to

(42:44):
be it could like accidentally end up in that category,
which is a shame.

S2 (42:48):
Yeah. I think like increasingly in the future, we're going
to see the types of films that have a cinema
release versus the type that have a streamer release really
polarized to me. This film was made for Netflix. The plotting,
the shots, the pacing, all of it felt right for Netflix. Yes,
it would have been great in terms of the box
office to get more people into the cinemas to see it,

(43:08):
but I think it works really well as a Netflix
at home movie, and I also think it's a huge
benefit for the film that so many people are going
to be able to see it, and I think it's
going to cut through in a much bigger way than
it would have if it had just been at the cinema,
because we'll be all able to talk about it, access
it and see it.

S3 (43:25):
But don't you think when people because like, because like
Netflix movies have become such a like kind of genre
unto themselves, people will like watch it with already I guess,
an idea of what it is in mind and then
maybe miss, I guess, like some of the best parts
of the movie or miss what the movie really is saying.

S2 (43:39):
Well, potentially it sets the bar too low for the film,
which it will then over exceed expectations, particularly having a
name like Linklater attached to a film. Maybe it's about rebranding,
or maybe that's what Netflix is doing. Rebranding what? A
Netflix film is by getting a great director and a
quality film.

S3 (43:53):
I wonder what he thinks. I haven't really seen anything,
but he thinks.

S1 (43:55):
He's not particularly impressed with the situation. It's sort of
funny because Netflix is his sugar daddy here, but he's like,
we took it to these, uh, film festivals, I think
premiered at Venice. It got a huge reaction. And the
studio is just like weren't interested in it, which feels
like a massive miss from them when everything else is
sort of failing to launch right now. Why wouldn't they?
I think the movie cost $11 million and Netflix bought

(44:17):
it for $20 million, which is not a crazy amount
of money. And he's trying to tell people to watch
because I think in the US it's getting a couple
of weeks in theaters. He's like, please try and watch
it there. It's like, good on him for like taking
the Netflix bag and then also saying, go to movie
theaters and watch this. Don't watch this at home. I yeah,
I guess I just hope that people watch it. I
think I think there's a risk. I mean, the killer

(44:37):
was like a top tier movie by a top tier
director that didn't really, like become a phenomenon on Netflix. Mank, which,
you know, the movie that I always talk about.

S6 (44:47):
Is also like just.

S1 (44:48):
An awesome movie that is sitting there on Netflix. So
there's a there is there is like a world in
which this doesn't hit. But I think unlike those movies,
which are pretty self-serious and a bit darker, you can
see the title card of this, right? Like Glen Powell
and Adria Arjona and they're they're like kissing or whatever.
And people are like, fuck yeah, let's go.

S3 (45:06):
Smells like, oh, yuck. Like what they really should have
done is like, it should have been the reverse situation
for this and for Guy like for guy belongs straight
on Netflix. And this if had they given this maybe
if they fucking shot it on the Harbour Bridge I
don't know. But like if they, if they had given
this like the big, you know, studio push that fall
guy got like the quality. It feels like it's the
wrong way around.

S2 (45:25):
Yeah. I thought a lot about the fall guy when
I was watching this. And before when you were talking
about Powell not being a Ryan Gosling, I kind of
think he could be a Ryan Gosling and Ryan Gosling's
so-called funny era. Like, I could see Glen Powell being
in Barbie, being in fall Guy.

S1 (45:38):
Yeah, it's crazy that they paid like $180 million to
make fall Guy. And no one's like, should we, like,
outbid Netflix by $2 million and have, like, a very
cheap $11 million movie that could make $150 million?

S2 (45:50):
Yeah, I think all the signs are in place that
this will hope will take off on Netflix. It's getting
really great. Early reviews. The Glen Powell is a man
of the moment, not Glenn Close. And yeah, and Richard
Linklater is a huge name who doesn't put out a
stack of films. So it will be really interesting if
this doesn't cut through because yeah, I think that will

(46:10):
be something we should revisit because if it doesn't make
it through, it will be saying something.

S1 (46:15):
If it doesn't make it through, we should just like
pack up the podcast and.

S6 (46:17):
How it.

S3 (46:18):
Is so funny though, like having obviously thinking about Linklater
so much, like we talked about, um, you know, funny
IMDb back catalogs last week. He's got like when you
look at his collection of films, they're quite odd altogether,
like in a row. Yeah.

S1 (46:30):
Let's have the Linklater conversation, because I don't think we've
really talked about it much on the podcast. And like
I said, I was doing a bit of a rewatch.
I'm like, wow, low key. Maybe like my second favorite
director after Soderbergh. It is such a fascinating and diverse.
And like you said, Tom's weird filmography. His most recent
film before this is this animated feature, Apollo ten and
a half, which is like also has Glen Powell in it.

(46:51):
It's about like a kid watching the space race is.
I haven't seen it. I don't know if you guys
have seen it, but. It throughout our probably most formative years,
like the late 90s, the early 2000, Linklater was making
either these like coming of age or very existential and
like movies that philosophy borrows. Like you, Thomas at uni

(47:12):
probably loved to watch and like talk to girls about.
And just like has in hindsight made some of the
best movies you know, in the past like 50 years.
What were your relationships like to. To his work either
either growing up or now.

S3 (47:26):
I talked about before sunset on a lot of first dates,
if I'm being honest. Um, just as a way of
getting that in there. No, I like and I rewatched
that movie last night. I know it has become a
kind of like, you know, almost a punchline for a
certain type of person. It's still a great movie. I like, I,
I think one of the, one of the movies I
remember crying in quite openly was boyhood. Like, I thought
that was an incredible feat of filmmaking. Like, I still

(47:49):
reckon I could watch that movie and be, like, kind
of messed up by it. Um, but then, but then, like,
school of Rock is a fucking hilarious studio comedy, like
with Jack black, probably in his best role. Like, it's. Yeah,
I mean, it is funny, like thinking back about it,
I would say he's like, in my kind of top,
top five directors of all time. Like, he he has
a beautiful kind of collection of work. And also I

(48:09):
think and I think this might be true for both
of you, his specific style, his like, so, you know,
like the way he kind of picks up threads of
conversations that you have in real life and puts them
in movies, and it just feels so natural. Like that's
very much the type of thing we're all into. We're
all like, obviously big talkers. And so I just like
love how well he captures the human condition. And yeah, um,
I don't know, Before Sunrise trilogy, it's all just kind
of there for me.

S2 (48:29):
Yeah. I also love the the boldness of the vision.
Shooting the Before Sunrise films over such a long period
of time. Boyhood over 12 years. The film he's working
on now, I think is over 20 years. Right? Yeah.

S1 (48:43):
Merrily We Roll Along into Sondheim musical that I think
is like set over 20 years. But he's like, he's cast, uh,
Paul Mescal and he's going to film them over 20 years. Um,
and I think the story, Merrily We Roll Along is
sort of in reverse chronological order. So it's a fascinating project.
I kind of am very interested to see if it
works out. But he did it with boyhood.

S2 (49:03):
Yeah, exactly. And he'll be 80 by the time he
finishes that. It does add something different and interesting to
the films when you're getting these snapshots over time. I
love his style. I think he's really interested in the
fleeting moments, and it's kind of reflected in the plotlessness
of a lot of these films, or even the subjects
like Dazed and Confused, which are these teenagers kind of

(49:26):
moving around. So whether he's in his more sentimental or
funny phase, that interest in moments of time and coincidences
and what can be and isn't and could be that
runs through them all. And I really like that.

S1 (49:41):
Yeah, it's interesting how his films either like set on
one day like the before trilogy or days confused or
like over the space of decades. He's very interesting how
he can, like, use time in that way. And I
don't think it's cringe. Thomas, to say you like the
before trilogy. I think maybe people made fun of people
like us in uni, because we tried maybe to turn
every first date into that experience. Um, but they're really good.

(50:04):
And particularly the second one before Sunset. It's like ten
years on, Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy had more of
a role in writing it. This is like just around
the time or just after Ethan Hawke's separation from Uma Thurman.
So there's so much like personal conflict poured into that,
and it is super entertaining and super interesting and super
thought provoking. I really love his kind of autobiographical cool,

(50:28):
like dudes rock films like Dazed and Confused, which is
McConaughey's breakout. Like, that is an awesome movie. And then
a movie that I hadn't watched, believe it or not,
until this weekend, is it's called, like, the spiritual successor
to Daisy, confused, Everybody Wants Some. Dazed and confused is
set in the 70s in Texas. This is set in 1980,
and it's like a character very loosely based on Linklater,

(50:50):
who goes to college on a baseball scholarship, and it's
just set. Over the course of five days. He moves
into this frat house and it's just before class starts.
And it's there's a lot of echoes of this film
in hitman, where it's about a young kid being exposed
to these new ideas, these new kinds of music, new
fashion styles, and trying to figure out who he is, like,
who am I in this new world? I've come from

(51:11):
this small town. Am I a punk? Like, that was
kind of fun, but I'm actually like a country guy.
I'm going to the Soul Train kind of disco nights.
I want to like, meet girls. But what version of
myself do I show off to do that, to kind
of get all of those ideas and what is just
like a teen comedy and kind of like a stoner
comedy is really, really impressive. Um, and then he also
has this other dynamic. I don't know if you guys

(51:32):
have seen Bernie, the Jack black film. There's a really funny,
interesting movie that is also based on a Skip Hollingsworth article. Uh,
the guy who wrote the Hit man story about a
real story about a funeral, uh, like Undertaker who ends
up murdering a very wealthy older woman and taking her money.
And it's very funny, and it's very, like, kind of
dark in certain ways. And I feel like with Hit Man,

(51:55):
what he's done. This is I promised you guys the
grand unified theory of Linklater. I think. I think with
Hit Man, he's taken the sort of fun vibe stuff
that is always talked about independence and identity and what
it means to be human. And he's merged it with
the kind of more crime focused, like, how does America
really work? Like, what are the systems that operate, and

(52:15):
why do certain Americans do these things? And how do
people end up on wrong sides of lawyers, brought them
together in what is a pretty tight little package in
this film. And I don't know if Merrily We Roll
Along will ever come. Often. I don't know how many
more movies he makes, but if this is like his,
you know, putting it all in there and it's like
his peak, it's a pretty fucking good peak for him
to to go out on.

S3 (52:34):
Yeah. It's such a shame that he cast Paul Mescal though.
I mean of all people. Yeah it is, it is
like it's a very impressive kind of career. And you
know he I think what you said he'll be in
his 80s by the time he finishes. Um, and you know,
there is obviously he's been doing the press rounds to
promote this and he's talked about how like, oh, but
I'd love to be making movies until, you know, I'm

(52:55):
in I'm in my 90s, which is very impressive. But
it is funny, like talking about obviously this obsession with
identity and everything. And even now, like in his whatever,
he must be in his 60s now and he's making
films still exploring that concept. And he spoke about in
an interview that I read recently like, well, like, do
you I think the interview asked him, do you find
that you're still searching for your identity? He's like, oh, look,
to be honest, I think I've probably found it. And like, really,

(53:17):
that is like I'm a film director, like I am
my most myself on set. And do you think then
if you look at like the Linklater filmography as a whole,
like he's trying to tell us that you can eventually
find who you are, are we supposed to find who
we are or it doesn't really matter. And you can
keep trying on new things, even into your 60s and
70s and 80s.

S2 (53:35):
Yeah, I think that was the hit man. Kind of
ended at the point that you can be whoever you
want consistently, and remaking yourself is part of the experience
of human life, that we're constantly coming of age. And
the idea that you have to be one thing always
and that you're not going to change. I think it
was questioning that because as we as we've seen Glen

(53:57):
Powell's complete transition over the course of the film, I
think the end result is, yeah, you can be whoever
you want to be.

S3 (54:03):
So that means I'm 35 today. I can cut this
like it's like a do a refresh.

S6 (54:06):
Yeah, yeah. Who do you want to be? You're a
denim jacket, dude. Now, I know.

S3 (54:09):
Maybe I might become like the bookish guy of the pod.
I will become like the philosopher. Maybe we can do
a switch up like a Freaky Friday.

S2 (54:18):
I'm excited to embody my.

S6 (54:19):
Every.

S1 (54:20):
Every episode. We should just reinvent our personalities. In honor
of Richard Linklater. That's a very beautiful, uh, summation ummul
of the the way that he's been in dialogue. This
movie's in dialogue with a lot of his earlier films.
If I had to hitman esque put a gun to
your guys heads and say, tell me your favorite ever
film by Richard Linklater, what would you say?

S2 (54:41):
Um, I, I'm going to say Before Sunrise. I still
love it. I think about it a lot. It's the
way it's this epic film, but it's told so intimately.
And I don't know if you remember, there's this scene
when Ethan Hawke and Julie Delpy, they put on a
record and it's a Kath Bloom song, and it's this
really long shot, and they're kind of looking at each
other and then looking away, and it's so awkward, but

(55:04):
it's so much possibility and potential. There's all this unspoken
ness in the silence. I, I think I know, as
we were saying before, that, you know, it's now got
a reputation of being a bit naff and it's a
bit of a punch line sometimes, but I still think
it's a really spellbinding film that manages to do it
without being treacly, sentimental.

S3 (55:24):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's an amazing series and kind
of Osmond like you touched on before, it really made it. Okay. Um,
in my broker years to just make dates where you
just walked around for hours and it, it made it
less cheap and more kind of romantic. But you were broke.

S1 (55:36):
Because you kept flying them to Vienna. I think that
was the problem.

S3 (55:41):
Very good. Uh, I also love those films, but I
would go with boyhood. Um, I remember being really, like,
really properly blown away by the first time I saw that. And,
you know, I was a boy once. Um, and, and
so I think it like, it did really speak to
me and just like, you know, I love films about
family dynamics. I thought the in terms of a feat
of filmmaking, it was so impressive. Um, Ethan Hawke, obviously

(56:02):
such a long time Linklater collaborator, was incredible in that.
And so was Patricia Arquette. Uh, yeah. I think, you know,
it's we don't get many pieces of art that really, like,
go so deep into helping us think about these things. Um,
just the pure like effort he put into it really, like,
takes you on that journey. And yeah, boyhood for me
will always be an important film.

S1 (56:22):
Great recommendations. I think I got to go with Dazed
and Confused, his second film. It's just like the amount
of stars in that movie Ben Affleck, Parker Posey, Matthew McConaughey. Like,
it's crazy. And it's just like, what happens? Nothing. But
is it fun? Is it awesome? Do you think a
little bit about, like, being nostalgic for a time that
you never lived through? Like, that's the crazy thing about

(56:42):
that movie. I want to go back to the 70s
and my American high school and just drive around with
my friends and, you know, just hang out and smoke
weed and drink beer and play pool. I never fucking
did that. I didn't live in America in the 70s.
But he makes you want to do that in a
way that is genuinely beautiful and very funny. And it's awesome.
And watching that next to everybody wants some. I just
think you're not gonna have a better four hours than,

(57:03):
than doing that.

S2 (57:04):
Yeah, I agree, and there are so many great scenes
in Dazed and Confused, the kind of whole conversation about,
is it Barbara Bush that they have? Yeah, yeah.

S6 (57:11):
Yeah, yeah.

S2 (57:13):
It's uh, it's a great film.

S3 (57:14):
Yeah. And he gave us McConaughey, which is really like
the gift that keeps on giving.

S1 (57:18):
Absolutely. Um, okay, so time to wrap up the show
with our Impress Your Friend segment. We'll. We recommend something
we watched listen to read otherwise consumed in the wake
of culture. I'll go first. It's a cheat because I
have been very both busy and ill and have just
watched Richard Linklater films for the past week, so mine

(57:39):
is a theme that we've referenced a couple of times
on this podcast. It's an interview that Richard Linklater did
with The New York Times for their The Interview podcast.
It's a really interesting format. They basically do this big
interview with a personality that chalerm and the God on
a couple of weeks ago, and then they check back
in with that person, like a few days later after
something's happened and just get their delayed reactions to the

(58:00):
things that they talked about. It's a really interesting format.
It's a cool interview series, and the Linklater one is
just like, really wonderful. Even if you haven't seen the
film yet, it's great, but I think it reaches like
another depth of meaning when you've seen the film and
you understand what he's talking about, what he's trying to do.
So that's my rec.

S3 (58:16):
Yeah, it's really cool in that interview. Exactly that how
it works. Because he asks him a question I think
specifically about, like, do you still enjoy movies in the
same way as you did back in your era, when
you would watch 600 a year? And he gives a
kind of, you know, an answer in the first interview,
and then when they catch up a few days later,
he kind of comes to him and he's like, hey,
I really like, you know, sat on that question and
I feel like I didn't give the question the answer

(58:36):
it deserves. So like, I love how they do that
kind of split interview and like, you kind of get
like a different sense of the person a few days later.
And I also.

S2 (58:42):
Think Richard Linklater in all these interviews, just comes across
as a great guy. And Dennis and I were talking
earlier about how his whole aesthetic, he kind of seems
like the guy who should be a sound engineer at. Yeah,
at a gig. Yeah, yeah, he's just none of the
pretension of an auteur, which, you know, sometimes is fun,
but he just seems like a good human, too.

S6 (59:01):
Yeah.

S3 (59:01):
No, he seems like a cool guy. I'm into him, obviously.

S1 (59:05):
Um. Thomas, what have.

S3 (59:07):
You got for us? Uh, my one, this is actually
this one you can impress your friends with next week
when this comes out, but it's actually the new standard.
Everything must go from Hannah Einbinder from hacks. Now, look,
I would say hacks. I don't know about you guys,
but everyone in my circle is, like, really watching and
loving season three.

S1 (59:22):
Absolutely. Yeah.

S3 (59:23):
It's like, you know, season three can be a tricky
time for comedy shows. I feel like hacks is like
leveled up again. It's just been renewed for season four,
which you can watch on Stan. Um, I haven't seen
her do stand up before. Um, I got sent the screener.
It's very, very funny. She talks, you know, about her faith,
her obviously, her sexuality, her family. You know, her parents
went to, like, insane lengths, you know, kind of doing these,

(59:45):
you know, like, rituals and recommendations to try and have
a boy. And they had her and she tells some
really funny stories about that. She's kind of having a
moment right now anyway. But that's, uh, Everything Must Go,
which hits binge, uh, on Thursday, June 13th. But I'm
telling you now, it will impress your friends when you
watch them and tell them to watch it, too.

S1 (01:00:00):
She plays Ava on Hacks.

S3 (01:00:02):
Yes, she plays Ava, the young, kind of like comic.

S2 (01:00:04):
Yes, she's very good. And you've also been reading a
book that we talked about on the pod when you
were away? Yes.

S3 (01:00:10):
All fours by Miranda July. Fuck me. It's amazing. But
not only that. Oseman, I've been meaning to tell you this.
I am reading Mel's copy, which has been like, oh my.

S1 (01:00:18):
God, dog eared. There's notes in.

S3 (01:00:19):
There. Oh my God, the underlining is so revealing. Um, also,
there's like all these I need like a legend to
read it because, like, there's like arrows here and then
like squiggles here and then like, must revisit. It's like,
so stressful to read Mel's notes. She's having like, as
I get deeper into the book, she's having like, a breakdown.

S6 (01:00:35):
This is.

S2 (01:00:36):
Why I did not.

S6 (01:00:37):
Want to give you this book. Why can you can
you pass.

S1 (01:00:39):
It on to me when you're.

S6 (01:00:40):
Done, please?

S2 (01:00:40):
No, no. Yes. This is like the inner workings.

S1 (01:00:43):
But to your credit, Mel, and to your defense, rather,
I should say you were interviewing Miranda July. Right? So
presumably this was like note taking, or is it just
something you do, like you're reading Little Women and you're like,
God damn, that fucking line.

S6 (01:00:55):
Has never hit harder.

S2 (01:00:57):
The fact you picked little women, I mean, I've got
to give you I've got to give you credit for that. Uh, no,
it was in preparation for the interview. That's not my
normal reading habit. But you are right, I do have.
I have worked out such a good system that you
really do need a legend to understand what the different signs,
symbols and things mean.

S3 (01:01:15):
There's a lot going on. But the book, uh, you've
obviously read it. Uh, Osman. It's amazing. Lots of people
I know are reading it. Um, so I don't need
to recommend it to anyone because I feel like it's
out there. But yes. Um, as someone who's often considered myself,
you know, worthy of working at a Hertz rental car service,
I really I really enjoy it.

S1 (01:01:30):
Nice one. Um, Mel. Lucky last. What have you.

S6 (01:01:33):
Got?

S2 (01:01:34):
Well, if I got to do the Glenn Powell switcheroo
and kind of had my time again, I often think
I would love to be an art historian or an
art curator, so I often read a lot of books
about art. The one I've read at the moment is
called The Story of Art Without Men. It's by Katy Hessel,
who was at the Sydney Writers Festival just recently. She's

(01:01:54):
an art historian, a presenter, she's a curator. She's got
this great Instagram page, um, and a podcast called The
Great Women Artists. She's done a history of Western art
movements from the 1500s to the 2020s. It's a really
nicely engaging, like it's very readable. It's not an austere
art history book, and it's kind of a response to
the classic chronicle, The Story of Art. It was published

(01:02:16):
in 1950, and it was only recently updated to include
one woman in it. So it's almost a response to that. Wow.
It's a beautiful book. My own. Issue is its hardback
gloss pages. It is so heavy. I'm like working out
every time I read it. Or at least are there like.

S6 (01:02:31):
Pictures of.

S1 (01:02:32):
Art in it? Is it like pretty inside?

S2 (01:02:34):
There are. It's very pretty. Lots of pictures to keep
you engaged. Did you know.

S1 (01:02:37):
That in 1989, less than 5% of the artists in
the modern art sections of British galleries are women, but 85%
of the nudes were women.

S2 (01:02:46):
Wow. I didn't know that specific statistic, but it makes
it stacks up.

S1 (01:02:51):
That I read that in a review I just pulled
up of this book, so it sounds very interesting.

S3 (01:02:55):
That's actually Osman keeps a blog about statistics around nudes.

S2 (01:03:00):
Well, I will uh, this one. I haven't made notes
in it because I preserved the sanctity of this art.

S1 (01:03:05):
Hard copy books. I feel like you can't. Like it feels.
That feels wrong.

S3 (01:03:09):
Yes. And can I just say it would not be
a book recommendation without me discussing the cover? It's been
sitting on Mel's desk. This cover will look hectic on
your Instagram. It's big and yellow with like blocky text.
It's a very cool cover. So yeah, even if you
want to buy it but not read it or you
get bored by it, it's definitely worth, um, posting about.

S2 (01:03:25):
Yeah, you can impress your friends without actually having to
do any work.

S6 (01:03:28):
We need to.

S1 (01:03:28):
Add a section to this, which is just what Tomas
recommends for you to post on your Instagram without having
consumed to just seem.

S6 (01:03:35):
Cool. Exactly.

S3 (01:03:37):
Sorry my love.

S1 (01:03:38):
Mel and Thomas take it Thomas, have a great rest
of your birthday. Up the blues.

S3 (01:03:42):
Yes thank you. I will let you know what my
new identity is.

S6 (01:03:44):
Happy birthday, big T!

S1 (01:03:49):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us in your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!