The bratty, brash brilliance of Charli XCX. Plus, 'Clipped' and 'Ren Faire' capture the dark side of America

Brat is Charli XCX's best album yet, and one of the best pop records of the year. It's a throwback to 2000's club culture mixed with avant-garde production and lyrics about loss, love and the state of the world.

Osman, Mel and special guest Meg Watson discuss why Brat feels so different to other pop music released this year and Charli's role in the culture.

Plus, they talk about the new prestige show Clipped and how it portrays social media and the rise of the Kardashians in the 2010s, and the totally unhinged Safdie brothers produced documentary series Ren Faire.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is the drop a
culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment. I'm here with Mel Schembri and
Meg Watson. Meg, this is very exciting. Haven't spoken to
you on this podcast for like 12 months. You're filling
in for Thomas, who's on another mysterious trip. Have you

(00:28):
been what's been happening.

S2 (00:30):
Are a lot's been happening in my life? I've, uh,
birthed two humans simultaneously.

S1 (00:37):
I'm acting surprised, but I did. I did know that.

S2 (00:40):
No, we actually don't speak outside of work. Uh, it's
in my contract. Um, yeah. I had two beautiful babies, uh,
and I. My life exploded, and I'm now in the
process of putting it back together, like one of those
Japanese vases that gets melded with gold. Yeah.

S1 (00:58):
I would describe your life currently as being stuck together
with gold. Like it's hanging on, but it looks shiny
and nice.

S2 (01:04):
Great. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's very cute. It's very cute
from the outside. You don't get all the the stuff
in the inside where you're covered in poo and spew
and have to take three showers a day.

S1 (01:14):
Um, it's very nice to have you back. Both on
the show, but also just as a colleague, as one
of our wonderful reporters. You're back. We missed you. So
thank you.

S2 (01:23):
I also, it feels like I'm a fan of this
podcast now. I mean, I've been on it before quite
a lot, but the past 12 months, my main experience
was just like walking around the neighborhood with my double pram,
trying to get my babies to sleep. Listening to you
guys like it was actually a real lifesaver. It makes
you feel very sane when all you've seen all day
is The Wiggles and Sesame Street and haven't spoken to

(01:43):
an adult, did you?

S1 (01:45):
Um, that's very nice. Did you like, watch much? I
know that there's this maybe a false assumption that, you know,
newborn parents have all this, like, time on their hands.
I understand that that is not really the case. Particularly
when you have two kids. Twins? Um, but did you, like,
were you able to tap into culture much on your
year off?

S2 (02:04):
In the early days, it was pretty much just what
watching Selling Sunset on the couch, um, in like, this
fugue state, because I was sleeping two hours a night
and couldn't comprehend anything else. Um, but then over the months,
it got a bit better, and I actually ended up
going to a lot of movies because it was the
best place to just be by myself. Zone out when
you're overstimulated and freaked out from having mental breakdowns all

(02:27):
day with these babies.

S1 (02:28):
Well, you shared a tip on your Instagram a few
weeks ago about why going to like mums and bubs
screenings is so good. Have you been to many of those?

S2 (02:37):
No, because twins do not generally allow that. The chaos of, um,
not being able to hold two babies at once, having
one just causing chaos everywhere, um, can't feed them both
at the same time when you're in a cinema chair. But, uh,
one of my babies was sick because I have started daycare,
and so that is their entire life now. And I
was able to take the other baby to the fall

(02:57):
guy for her first cinema experience. Wow. Um, and, you know,
it was fine. Yeah.

S1 (03:03):
Not not the most memorable.

S2 (03:04):
First, but it was cheap, but it was like a
$12 ticket. And, uh, babies get in free.

S1 (03:09):
So better than my first cinema experience, which was Jurassic
Park when I was like two years old, I think,
or three years old. And it was very scary. That's
a sick.

S2 (03:17):
Experience.

S1 (03:17):
Well, I mean, it's my favorite movie and I'm very happy.
That was my first, uh, experience. But at the time,
my main memory is just of me, like screaming, running
out of my parents lap and running to the like,
screen and just like, ah, pounding on it. Well, yeah.
Great to have you back. Thank you. Mel, how you doing?
You've had a more quiet week, I guess, compared to
Meg's last 12 months.

S3 (03:37):
Yeah. I'm no vase put together with gold, all right.
Certainly don't feel like one. I'm. Well, really glad to
have you back, Meg. Also, I'm really excited because I
think we might explode Oz's brain. Because Oz often calls
me Meg and he calls you Mel, which I was
really hoping we weren't already.

S1 (03:57):
I was really hoping we weren't going to get into
this on this show, because I'm going to nail it.

S3 (04:02):
I mean, it's an easy mistake to make. We both
start with M and E, so I see why it happens. But, um, yeah,
I'm just really hoping it all comes to a head
in this episode.

S1 (04:11):
I've said it already. If there was another guy in
this podcast called Osama, you would confuse me for him
all the time. And that would be way worse than
the Meg and Mel accent. A little switcheroo that I
do sometimes.

S3 (04:22):
Sure, sure, sure. Is this the first.

S2 (04:23):
Time it's been two women on the pod? The ratios switched.

S1 (04:28):
Yeah, I feel outnumbered and terrified.

S2 (04:30):
I'll start talking about Sydney Sweeney. I'll fill the gap.

S1 (04:35):
All right, let's get into it. After a little bit
of a lull in the last couple of months when
it comes to television, things seem to be warming up
a bit. This episode, we're going to be talking about
two new shows that are quite different in terms of
style and plot, but I think thematically grappling with similar
ideas around power and the hell is going on in
America right now. But before we get to those, I

(04:57):
want to talk about an album that I think the
three of us agree is one of our favorite releases
of the year so far. It's Charli Xcx's Brat, which
was released late last week. I've been hyping this album
since February, when the first single, Von Dutch, was released.
I think it was my recommendation that week. Um, the
second single, 360, came out just last month with a

(05:18):
star studded film clip. Rachel Sennott, Julia Fox, all the
IT girls of the moment.

UU (05:25):
I went my own way and I made it. I'm
your favorite reference, baby. Call me debris. You're so inside.
On tectonic moves. I mean.

S4 (05:35):
Come check your.

UU (05:36):
Defibrillators. No, I can't relate. I'll always be the one on.

S1 (05:42):
Most of this album is produced by Charli's long term
collaborator A.G. cook, the founder of PC music, and is
generally considered one of the pioneers of hyperpop and the
kind of sound that came to define Charli's first half
of her career. I guess brat has a lot in
common with that stuff, particularly her dual 2017 mixtapes Number one,
Angel and pop two. I actually think this is her

(06:03):
best album since that era. It also sounds like a
throwback to that kind of mid 2000 Ministry of Sound
brash club music vibe. What do you guys think about
Brat Meg?

S2 (06:16):
I've been loving it. I've been, uh, playing it for
my babies, telling them what it was like to be
alive in 2009. Drinking cheap vodka, smoking cigarettes, wearing black
tights and denim shorts. Um, yeah. It's been it's been
so sick. It's so good to listen to. It's like
this great mix of these club bangers that make you
nostalgic for this other time, but in a way that

(06:37):
doesn't feel forced, like it still feels fresh. It feels
like it's building on that legacy. Um, but also then
there's these kind of quieter, more introspective songs, and the
switch between those two is such a nice balance. Like,
I feel like it's not too much of one or
the other. Um, but it's just fucking sick to listen to.
I think that's the best metric for these pop songs.

S1 (06:56):
That's a really good way of putting it. It's like
there's these nods to that era that will be very
reminiscent to millennials like us, but it's not like a
nostalgia play. It's definitely iterating on that kind of sound.

S2 (07:06):
And especially because, I mean, she's she's 31, right? And
she came up in that era, she was like started
on the Myspace demos and stuff. Like, it's not as
though it's a 16 year old who's like, just heard
of indie sleaze and is trying to, like, reincorporate that
sound like she lived it. She was there. And a
lot of the album is kind of reflecting on that
time and who she was as well, and building from there.

S3 (07:27):
Your kids are going to be so cool. Meg listening
to Chelsea X already? Um, I went to a writer's
festival in Belgium, which is on the mid-north coast, over
the weekend, and it's a very long drive there, and
I was by myself in the car. It's like you
drove to Bellingen.

S1 (07:40):
Wow.

S3 (07:40):
Yeah, I drove to Burlington and I actually really enjoyed it.
And brat was a great album. I had my highs
when I was like, really up, and then I kind
of could come down with some of those quieter songs.
I think it's a really great album. Those 42 minutes
just fly by and it's got this real energy and
momentum to it. And as Meg said, maybe on paper
you don't think it will work. These kind of really
heavy dance beats and then the softer, more vulnerable songs,

(08:03):
but they all do flow together really well. Von Dutch
and 360 are highlights for me. Girl. So confusing. Apple B2B,
I think they're all really great. I find Charli XCX
two really interesting. You know how she's like totally dumped
on crash, which was her 2022 album with Atlantic Records.
She thinks she sold out. She was really distanced herself

(08:25):
from it, but I think that album is great, and
I actually think this album is building on a lot
of what she started doing in crash. Um, I just
think her whole she's obviously navigating and she talks about
this in the music, this line between indie artist and
celebrity pop star. And I think that's quite an interesting
thing to watch on, both in the music and in

(08:45):
how she's kind of doing the press as well.

S1 (08:47):
That's really interesting. I didn't love crash, but I don't
think it was a disaster like it was her most
commercially successful album, she said. It's a sort of funny,
like Post-irony moment that a lot of these artists are
going through, where she said, I'm doing this album, but
just so you know, it's my most commercial yet, and
it's the first time I've worked with the Atlantic Records A&R.
So before you cancel me for selling out, I'm kind

(09:08):
of like calling myself out, which is, I guess like
a good way to deflect criticism, but it feels very
of the moment as well, where everyone is like preempting
how they're going to be discussed. And I thought that
was an okay album. But I think what I like
about this one is it does feel more reminiscent, like
particularly number one Angel, that's like my one of my

(09:29):
all times. Um, I think the other part of why
this feels so good and a little bit different to
crash for me, is that it doesn't really sound like
any other pop album out at the moment. Meaghan Garvey
wrote the Pitchfork review for this record, brat, and she
summed up the state of the charts right now in
a really interesting way. She said it's either warmed over
disco or weepy Reddit detective pop, and I feel like

(09:52):
that's like the gamut from Dua Lipa to Billie Eilish
and Olivia Rodrigo and Taylor Swift, and this is like
nothing like that. There are some songs that are obviously
about her life and her emotions and other musicians and
her feelings about Sophie, her old long time collaborator who
passed away quite tragically. But largely, it's not like I'm

(10:13):
revealing myself and I'm going super inwards. It feels really
different to other pop records right now.

S2 (10:18):
Yeah, I mean, I suppose, yeah, like you said, there's
so many ideas in the album and they are autobiographical
if you read them that way, but they also aren't necessarily.
It's not like you come to a Charli XCX album,
like can't wait to hear about her latest breakup. Like,
that's not the album you're going to get. Um, but,
I mean, there is a lot in there that she
is playing around with. I mean, even girls. So confusing.

(10:39):
It's pretty widely speculated that that's about Lord. Right? Like,
she's really in dialogue with the idea of pop stardom,
inasmuch as that she's making the music as well.

S1 (10:47):
Yeah. I'm interested like about that one with you guys,
because there's been people saying that that's a song, you know,
it's a song about a contemporary of hers that, you know,
people say that you should collaborate with. But she's like,
we don't really get along, and maybe one day we will.
And I'd love to see you actually, like party. Some
people think it's about Taylor Swift because there is this
very explicit reference to like, poetry. My my immediate reaction

(11:10):
to it is, is like, I don't really want to
do the Reddit detective thing on it. Like it could
be about a particular person. It could be about her
positioning herself against an entire generation of artists. But I
like that. Unlike, say, the most recent Taylorswift record. If
you don't know who it's about, if you don't know
those details, it's still just works. It's a really fun song.

S2 (11:30):
Totally. If you don't know any of that, it just
reads as a song of like what it's like to
be friends with girls when you're like 13 through 30, like, right, right, right.
These insecure relationships where there's this power imbalance, you don't
know where you sit and you're trying to be cool,
but you don't know if you're really friends. Like, it
just works on that level as well.

S3 (11:46):
Yeah, in some ways, knowing who it's Autobiographically alleged to
be about it actually narrows down the potential meaning of
it for people. I do find it interesting. She does
talk a lot about relationships with women in in the album,
and I do, speaking about the other big pop releases.
That does seem to be a consistent theme in Billie Eilish, Rodrigo,
Taylor Swift. There is a lot of introspection about relationships

(12:09):
between women, and there was also there's also been a
lot of talk in this album about motherhood as well,
so I feel like they're kind of more interesting themes than,
you know, celebrities just talking about the status of their
fame and sometimes hating the consequences of fame. So even
though her lyrics, I feel have this lightness to them,
there's also a bit more than just kind of fun
words going on and fun beats.

S1 (12:30):
Yeah, it feels like the kinds of conversations a lot
of very media literate, very smart women in their early
30s I know are talking about. And I think I
go as far as saying, like the references to the
Red scare podcast and Julia Fox and Rachel Sennott. And again,
it's like this ironic meme culture, and it's a little

(12:53):
bit of a reaction, a bit of an edgelord reaction
against wokeness that defined kind of like the 20s of
a lot of these people, and they're sort of pushing
back on that. It's a bit cringe. It's lame, it's
a bit dumb, but at the same time, you're faced
with the actual material reality of being a woman at
a certain phase in your career, in life where you're
feeling loss, you're trying to make relationships work. A lot

(13:16):
of people around you are having kids and you're quite
not there yet. It's it's it's so funny because it
is just like this dumb fun record on so many levels.
And then, wow, this actually, thematically feels so much more
interesting than these dense albums from someone like Taylor Swift,
which is supposed to be about that stuff, but don't
really feel as interesting to me.

S3 (13:36):
I think you also could not have described being a
woman in her 30s better than you just did. Um, no.

S1 (13:43):
Did I fuck it up? Did I fuck it up?

S3 (13:45):
No, you crushed it. Um, the gals on the pod. Thank. You. Know, I, um,
I completely agree. And also, there's, like, that Mean Girls
song where she talks about it.

S4 (13:55):
Girls she likes. Some people say it. Think you already
know it, but you don't. This one's for all my mean.

UU (14:04):
This one's for all my bad guys. Cause this one's
for all my break up boyfriends. Hard. For all my
Devastator rockers.

S3 (14:14):
This is both a tribute to the it girl as
well as a mockery of it, so there is kind
of a really fun playing between expectations and the reality
as well in these songs.

S2 (14:26):
And even this kind of self-referential way that, you know,
she is an it girl for a certain demographic. And
like even in some of these songs, she says, you know,
I'm famous, but not that famous. I'm still like half
in the normal world. It's like she's poking fun at
the idea of herself and the online persona that she creates,
while also engaging with it. Like this whole thing that she's,
she's been making music since she was like 16, this

(14:48):
incredible legacy that she's drawn and like the image of
her today.

S1 (14:51):
There is like one weird kind of comp with Taylor Swift.
So Charli does reference her boyfriend explicitly a couple of times.
George Daniel, who is in the band 1975 and obviously,
like Taylor's last record, mentions Matty Healy, who's the lead
singer of 1975. It is kind of funny that, like,

(15:12):
there are these two big pop records that are both,
like existing adjacent to the 1975 universe. Is this now
something I'm going to get canceled for? For immediately making
this about a man and like a male rock band?

S5 (15:26):
Yes. The answer is yes.

S3 (15:29):
She actually does. I was just checking because she does reference.

S1 (15:32):
She says, George, she's she has that song where she's
like listing, I want to go to the club with George. Yeah.

S3 (15:36):
Sympathy is a knife where she's like, I don't want
to see her backstage at my boyfriend's show. Yeah, yeah. Um, anyway, sorry,
let me pick up about whether you're going to get canceled.

S5 (15:44):
No, I just thought.

S1 (15:45):
It was like. It's just a funny little bit of trivia.
I think that there is like.

S3 (15:48):
No, it is 19.

S1 (15:49):
Interesting connection, connective tissue here.

S2 (15:51):
But we're not going to do the Reddit detective thing.

S5 (15:53):
No.

S3 (15:55):
Yeah. 1975 really flowing through a lot of, uh, these albums.

S1 (16:02):
Um, Meg, to pick up on a point you mentioned earlier, she,
she talks about, you know, I'm famous, but I'm not
that famous. It's a funny thing with Charli where I
think people in music land have respected her work for
a long time, but she's not been like someone who
sells out stadiums. Crashed that record we discussed. That was
her first UK number one, and it was engineered basically
to be a number one. I don't know if this

(16:24):
is engineered to tap into a current pop sound to
be that popular. She's doing this tour right now with
Troye Sivan. It's selling pretty well, but it's not like
a stadium tour either. Do you think she's found that
combination of a really fun sound and the zeitgeist to
maybe blast this kind of thing into the stratosphere, or
will this remain more in the kind of like Charli

(16:45):
Heads and electronic music heads will get it, but it
might not cross over?

S2 (16:49):
Yeah, I don't think it will cross over in that
same way. I mean, it's she's proven so many times
that she can do it even with her other ventures,
you know? Right. She wrote, I love it, like with
Icona Pop and Fancy with Iggy Azalea. It's like, this
is someone who can make huge hits that are playing
in H&M and Zara, but it's also she's she showed
again and again that that's not what she wants to do.

(17:10):
She wants to make these more complex objects and I
think this album will exist that way. It's going to
be something that critics love, that fans talk about all
the time. And to the people who are in the room,
it will matter a lot. But I don't think that's
going to be a sell out stadium. Mm.

S1 (17:23):
It's a good way of putting it. What do you think, Mel.

S3 (17:25):
Yeah I reckon some of the singles might cut through
but I agree I don't think it's the most accessible album,
particularly given what I think the regular kind of mainstream
listener of music has been trained to listen to lately.
When it comes to pop, that very laid back pop
sound that we've discussed before, the Taylor Swift effect on pop,
and this is kind of potentially too radical, I think,

(17:46):
to cut through on a huge level compared to some
of those other singers.

S1 (17:50):
Yeah, I hope it does well enough that she sells
out her tour. It was looking not great. I think
about 80% of tickets had sold out before the album
was released, which is not bad, but you consider how
quickly big pop concerts are selling out. And there is
this almost this, you know, dichotomy where the big ones
sell and then no one has money left to go

(18:10):
to kind of the more mid-tier shows. But it looks
like from a bit of research I was doing since
the album dropped, the ticket sales have increased a bit.
People are like, oh shit, this is going to be
a really fun vibe in like an arena or something.

S3 (18:22):
Is that what is she playing? Arenas, I.

S5 (18:23):
Was interested.

S1 (18:24):
Yeah, arenas. I don't think there's Australian dates locked in yet,
but if her and Troy come over here, I feel
like it will do quite well.

S3 (18:30):
That would be so fun. The two of them together
as well.

S1 (18:33):
Um, I say I have some friends who saw Troy's
set at Primavera and just said it was awesome. So
hopefully we get that here. Um, maybe just to round
out that conversation, Mel, you mentioned some of your favorite tracks,
but any other songs you wanted to to highlight?

S3 (18:47):
Yeah, I reckon I'd put Mean Girls up there as well.
I think that's a really fun song. The beat of
it is good. It kind of is a throwback to
the era in which we grew up in, where the
It girls were such a a vibe, the kind of waify,
cigarette smoking, messy hot girl thing. So I think her
tone in that is really fun because it's not just

(19:07):
about kind of idolizing the girl, it's about taking it
down and making fun of it at the same time.

S1 (19:13):
Would you identify as one of those eight girls waify
cigarette smoking?

S3 (19:16):
Yeah, sure. Particularly when I'm at the book festivals. Right.

S1 (19:20):
The Belgian, uh, Festival of Belgian. Um, how about you, Meg?
Not necessarily how you identify at book festivals, but any
any standout tracks?

S2 (19:30):
Uh, I think Von Dutch is still the track I'm
listening to the most. But I also really do like
that motherhood track. I think about it all the time
is like a really tender, almost close to the album
that I think is really honest about the way that
a lot of people I know think about motherhood and
also like, presents it in not this cloying, idealistic way.
It's like, that looks so good. But also, would my

(19:52):
life be fucked? Maybe. Maybe both things are true. Um,
I also particularly like the hard switch between that, which
is like, maybe I'll have a baby, maybe it'll be great.
And three, six, five, which is like, let's do coke
in the bathroom.

S5 (20:03):
Yeah, it's so good.

S1 (20:03):
There's a lot of like, very like juxtaposing on the
tracklist on this where you're like, wow, I'm thinking now
it's like, let's just get fucked up and start rolling.

S5 (20:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

S1 (20:11):
My favorite is probably Everything Is Romantic, which, like I've decided,
is the Elena Ferrante like Charlie song, because I think
she wrote it in Naples. And there's all these references
to looking at Capri and, like, looking at Vesuvius. I
feel like I'm in the Neapolitan books. Um, that one
was for you, Mel. Just wanted to squeeze in that

(20:32):
book reference.

S5 (20:33):
I appreciate.

S1 (20:33):
It. Thank you. Um, but I love it. And I
love the way that that, uh, kind of refrain just
builds and builds and builds towards the end. You can
see that being reworked by DJs in the club and
being super, super fun.

S3 (20:44):
In a place that can make you change. Oh, that's
very sentimental as.

S1 (20:47):
Oh, I thought you guys all brought a bit of
sentimentality and, you know, introspection to that conversation. Thank you.

S5 (20:54):
Thank you.

S2 (20:55):
Wow. Everything's so kind to that. Thomas.

S5 (20:58):
Yeah.

S3 (20:59):
What a nice spot.

S1 (21:02):
Um, all right, let's pivot to TV. It feels like
I'm wearing my Toronto Raptors, uh, jumper in preparation for
this conversation, because it feels like we're in a bit
of a golden era for prestige shows based on very
iconic moments in basketball, NBA history. Uh, Mel, I know

(21:22):
you are a bit of a basketball head. Meg, I
have no idea what your relationship is to basketball or
the NBA.

S2 (21:28):
Uh, I have watched The Last Dance. Okay, uh, that's
about it.

S1 (21:32):
I mean, that's a great show.

S5 (21:33):
Yeah, it's very good. So you're familiar enough with.

S1 (21:35):
The sport and there's characters involved?

S2 (21:37):
Yeah, I'm familiar with, you know, everyone in the Space
Jam universe.

S1 (21:43):
Um, last year, uh, in terms of these big basketball shows,
we got the second season of Winning Time, which was,
I think, a pretty good HBO series that focused on
the LA Lakers incredible run in the 1980s, and it
starred Adrien Brody and John C Reilly. In fact, Meg,
if you haven't seen that and you have time, that's
a fun.

S5 (22:00):
One to watch.

S2 (22:01):
I have not, I.

S3 (22:01):
Don't think so. I didn't like winning time. And you
didn't like winning time? Nah, I didn't I didn't think
it got it right.

S5 (22:07):
And you were.

S1 (22:08):
Just thinking back to your time as a fan of
the Lakers in the.

S5 (22:11):
80s, 80s.

S3 (22:12):
That's it. Showtime.

S1 (22:13):
Magic Johnson, the guy playing him just didn't quite do
it for you.

S2 (22:15):
I feel like that. It's a show that didn't cut through, though.
Like there was so much hype after two seasons. Yeah.

S1 (22:21):
Well, anyway, it was a show that existed and now
there is a new show about basketball as well. Uh,
it's called clipped. It's on Disney+ here in Australia. Um,
and it's about the LA Clippers, the other team in LA.

S6 (22:35):
The Clippers have never won a championship ever. We are
going to win this year and it will change your life.

S7 (22:41):
Look at you. Is that Havarti?

S8 (22:43):
Um, are you trading DeAndre Jordan?

S6 (22:45):
Excuse me.

S7 (22:46):
This is my assistant V.

S1 (22:50):
Specifically, it's about their owner, a guy called Donald Sterling,
who was forced to sell the team after leaked audio
of him being incredibly racist, was shared to the media
by his mistress, V Stiviano, back in 2013. Did either
of you guys follow that controversy at the time? Did
you remember any of that?

S2 (23:10):
It didn't hit me at all. I mean, I've heard
the names involved, and I feel like I knew Donald
Sterling was an infamous figure, but I really didn't follow
the controversy. I wasn't across his history at all, which
honestly was a rough start to the show because it
really throws you in there.

S3 (23:25):
Yeah. That's interesting. I didn't follow it at the time
because I wasn't in my NBA era as I am
in now, um, as I diversify my interests beyond books. Um,
but since I have been in my NBA era, which
kind of came on the back of the influence of
the Black Lives Matter movement in the NBA and the

(23:45):
player empowerment movement in the NBA.

S1 (23:46):
Your interest in the NBA came off the back of
the Black Lives Matter movement. No, it.

S5 (23:50):
Kind of coincided.

S3 (23:51):
In terms of there was a lot of.

S5 (23:52):
Changes going on. Melanie Kambouris let's go.

S3 (23:55):
But, um, obviously what happened with the Clippers is kind
of really feeds into that as well. So I have
I was across the history of what went on at
the Clippers, you know, because of its ongoing influence on
the league.

S1 (24:08):
Yeah. Even though the Clippers are not necessarily a very
like well known or well liked team, they're kind of
the very, very, very minority team in L.A. in terms
of popularity. This issue around like the scandal that we're
about to talk about, the show gets into became a
bit of a microcosm for wider issues around race in
the NBA. So basically, in this show, in clipped, in
the two episode premiere, which is out now, we get

(24:31):
introduced to, uh, I guess one of the main characters,
Doc Rivers, who's probably one of the best known coaches
in the modern NBA. He's played by Laurence Fishburne, and
he joins the Clippers. He's trying to turn them around.
They're a pretty good team in terms of the individual
players there, but they're just not gelling well together. They've
got a pretty crusty old organization owned by this guy,
Donald Sterling, who's a billionaire property mogul played by Modern

(24:55):
Family's Ed O'Neil. The other cast is rounded out by
these two Australians screen legend Jacki Weaver, of course, who
plays Sterling's wife Shelly. And the very, very, very interesting Stiviano,
played by Australian Cleopatra Coleman. She starts as Sterling's assistant
and mistress and then becomes the agent of chaos, who,
after a kind of complicated situation of potentially being sued

(25:17):
by Sterling's wife, gets a bit angry, leaks these audio
messages she has of him saying very, very racist things
sparks this series of events that leads to Sterling having
to relinquish control of the Clippers and conversations around race
in the NBA, eventually leading to Mel getting involved in
the NBA. So you really have these Stiviano to thank for.

S5 (25:36):
That's in the finale, I think.

S1 (25:39):
Um, so you guys didn't love winning time, but what
did you make of this one?

S3 (25:42):
Mel I really loved it. I because winning time I
did not like I was did not go into this
with high hopes. I think it's really hard to get
recent history right fictionally, and I find myself often disappointed
when I see representation of real life events. But you know,
when all the people are still alive and the consequences
of the events are still unfolding. But I thought this

(26:03):
was great. It's really tight. It's really well shot. The
actors all shine and it covers some really interesting issues race, gender, class, celebrity, fame.
It ties it all together in a very watchable and
bingeable series. What did you think, Meg.

S2 (26:18):
Yeah, I agree, it was um, I had not much
expectations not knowing anything about the scandal really. Um, which
as I said, was kind of tough at the start.
But by the end of the first episode, it really
does give you all the information that you need and
you've got a full sketch of the situation. Um, I agree,
the performances are so good. It's funny to see Ed
O'Neill being given the right just to be how horrible

(26:40):
some of his characters can be. I mean, this is cooking.
This is the guy from, like, married with children who was, like,
borderline abusive back in the day, right? Like, we're just
letting him go now. Like, good. Yeah. Um, and Cleopatra Coleman,
I mean, the character of Vee and the real life person,
from what I understand. So interesting, but so impenetrable. Like,
what a tough ass to portray someone like that on screen,
and also the way that you kind of sympathize with

(27:01):
her but then are confused by her actions. It's this
really interesting mix of, yeah, you side with her, but
then she pulls the rug out from under you and
it's hard as well.

S3 (27:10):
And does anyone play a slightly manic, mad older woman
like Jackie Weaver?

S5 (27:17):
Like, yeah.

S1 (27:18):
She's so perfect in that role.

S2 (27:19):
The dynamic between the two of them is so interesting.
And as you said, it's kind of this great case
study of how power works and all these situations you've got,
you know, the black players and the white owners, but
also this gender dynamic of who has power in the
relationship between this older white wife and this black younger mistress,
and especially in a time like 2014, where I mean,
the Kardashians mentioned so many times, but she's such an

(27:40):
interesting Kim Kardashian like figure and how power works in,
in that kind of that world.

S1 (27:46):
Yeah, I like you. Meg struggled a little bit at
the start, just because the plot moves really quickly and
it's a six episode series, so they're not fucking around.
They're like trying to get a lot in. But by
the end of the second episode, which is like this
Jewel premiere. It actually, like I thought, did a really
good job of making you understand everyone's motivations, where everyone's

(28:08):
coming from. You get the explicit racism of Donald Sterling,
but you also get that kind of slightly more terrifying
implicit stuff, just the way that he acts around the
black players, his treatment of black people as basically like,
you know, very reminiscent of old school ideas of a
rich white man owning black people, which he literally seems

(28:29):
to think he does when he owns this team and
their uncomfortable response to his behavior. It also you mentioned
the Kardashians. I think it's so interesting the way that
it uses the watching TV or scrolling on Instagram to
give you a sense of what culture was like in
that part of the 20 tens, and it puts her

(28:49):
decision making around how to react to this guy in
a framework of reality TV, of normal people becoming celebrities
by their proximity to other famous people, or in the
very explicitly referenced scenes with Kim and Paris, like leaking tapes.
And there is this bit where everyone thinks this tape's
been leaked. They think it's a sex tape, and it's not.

(29:10):
It's just like a racist audio. But you can see
her wanting to get revenge at this much more powerful
guy who's got really good and very threatening lawyers. She's
using the tools that a woman of her status and
background has at that time, which is social media, and
taking control of the narrative by leaking stuff to things
like TMZ. And that made this a much more interesting

(29:31):
show than just being a narrative retelling of what was
going on, because it's also a really interesting commentary on
America and the way that culture has now become like,
we don't even take out the Kardashians, a reference so
many times, but it never really feels on the nose
because we now live in that world. Like that is
how everyone exercises politics and and power plays.

S2 (29:54):
We do and don't. Because, I mean, 2014 is this
interesting time where it's like I saw someone talking about
how it's this mid space between like short term and
long term memory. It's like it feels like we're living
in that world, but we're also not all the kind
of there's these scenes where like, you know, block text
memes come at your face and it's like, oh yeah,
we don't speak like that anymore.

S1 (30:12):
The Instagram like kind of app itself is.

S5 (30:14):
Very it's very dated.

S1 (30:15):
It's like the old school one.

S2 (30:17):
But it is an interesting environment for something like this
to play out, because it is this moment of TMZ
rumors spiraling on the internet. It's a, you know, the
flourishing age of digital media online where these stories could
just get a life of their own, and everyone was
on Twitter to poke fun at it. It's the age of,
you know, Gawker and that kind of stuff. So it
is interesting almost as a period piece.

S3 (30:36):
I think part of what makes this show quite interesting
is it is a revisioning from how I understand V
was covered at the time, kind of dismissed as a
power hungry, money grabbing mistress to a wealthy man. And
I think the show is putting her in a context
that allows a different story to be told than that
that played out in social media, which is infiltrated kind

(30:58):
of aesthetically into this show by showing those clips. I
actually found, because the show has little clips of social
media scrolls. So it's dating it into 2014, but social
media was really coming into itself then, because it then
obviously plays out with the decision to get rid of
Donald Sterling as well, with the boycott moving, starting there.
So I thought they integrated that really nicely.

S1 (31:29):
How do you guys find the other performance in this?
I don't know if you have a read on like
Doc Rivers Mel in your NBA era, like he has
a very distinctive, gravelly voice that Laurence Fishburne is trying
to channel. Like, it's like sometimes he's doing it, sometimes
he's not. Did you brush up against that or how
did you find his performance?

S3 (31:50):
I think Doc Rivers came out of this really well.
He looked like such a players coach. I think I'd
like him to be a coach in my life. Um,
I thought all the details. There were a lot of
small details that I found very funny in this show,
and it is a very funny show. Like, I really
enjoyed how Donald Sterling's character, like, can't really understand technology.
Like when they talk about a tape, he's like a

(32:10):
video tape and he's always like yelling into his phone,
which is always on loudspeaker. I thought there's like really
funny small moments in this. So even though it's about
this very serious issue and it kind of an account
of history, yeah, there's a lot of humor into it
that maybe hasn't been stated as as much as I
think it should be.

S1 (32:28):
And Meg, one of the questions I wanted to ask
you is someone who doesn't really follow basketball. There isn't
a heap of basketball in the show, but do you
think there's enough in it for like, regular folk who
just like, oh, I don't really care about what the L.A.
Clippers were up to ten years ago? Is there enough
for those kinds of people to, to to engage with
this TV show?

S5 (32:48):
Yeah, I.

S2 (32:48):
Think it's I think it's suited to people who aren't
really interested in the actual sport of basketball, because really
it's about the industry around it and the figures involved.
And as you said, the media at the time, I mean,
the screen time of actual basketball being played is under
two minutes. I swear in this, in the first two
episodes at least.

S1 (33:05):
Should we talk about Cleopatra Coleman for a bit? So
she's an Australian actress? I haven't seen her in a lot.
I did see her in the Brandon Cronenberg film Infinity
Pool that came out last year, and she was like
one of the leads. I think it was Alexander Sarsgaard's wife.
She played and like really, really interesting performance. But another
one of these, like Australian actresses who are not white,

(33:27):
who don't seem to have had much of a career
in Australia and then go overseas to LA and all
of a sudden they're on a hot streak, like thinking
about Geraldine Viswanathan, thinking about Charmaine Bingwa, who's on the
good fight. I think obviously there's something to be said
about the lack of roles for these kinds of actors
and actresses. The perhaps, you know, backwards nature of where

(33:51):
the Australian industry seems to be compared to the conversations
in Hollywood. I thought she was pretty astonishing in this role.
I know that, um, Mel, you've what? Your colleague Rob,
our colleague, has interviewed her for a story coming out
in spectrum this weekend. What's your kind of read on,
Cleo in this show?

S3 (34:09):
I think she does such a good job. I think
it's a very hard role to play where you're trying
not to give too much, but you also need to
find a way for the audience to empathize with you.
I think the fact and she talks to Rob about
this in our interview, which you can find on on
The Age and Herald websites that, uh, yeah, she needed
to go overseas because there were not enough roles here.

(34:29):
And it's such a sad indicted point on the Australian
film industry and the diversity of storytelling here that that
is still continuing to happen. She's had other roles, as
you mentioned, overseas infinity pool, you might quite a few
people know her from The Last Man on Earth, where
she did play an Australian in it. She was in
Rebel Moon, weirdly, she was in Step Up, played a DJ.
Pretty cool.

S5 (34:48):
Um, she was also in the music.

S1 (34:49):
Video for Galantis, you and I, which is like a
great song from like whenever it was like 2016, 17.
I love that tune.

S5 (34:56):
Yeah, it's a.

S3 (34:57):
Banger, but I think this is a real breakout star
turn in the very kind of traditional sense of the role.
So I think we'll probably be seeing a lot more
of her because she does steal. All the characters are good,
but she does steal the show in that performance.

S2 (35:11):
She does. I was surprised by what a lead she
is in the show. You hear in Australians coming up
in a US production and you're like, oh, that's cool.
They got a bit part. It's like, no, no, no.
She is the main character and she's doing an incredible job.
But it's so depressing. I mean, you mentioned the names
of how many people this has happened to. Like I
feel as though they get no jobs in Australia. They
get no chances to actually shine like this. And then

(35:32):
once they're overseas, people are like, oh, did you know
they're Australian? Like almost claiming them after the fact? It's
so depressing. And I don't know how that's going to change.
I mean, the film and TV production in Australia is,
you know, there's great stuff going on, but it seems
like the pool of roles are getting smaller, the opportunities
are getting less, and what new generation is struggling to

(35:52):
get through now.

S3 (35:53):
She did mention in her interview that she's really keen
to come back and work in Australia, and that she
feels it's important that she has a presence in Australian storytelling.
So I think she is actively on the hunt for
roles here, which is great because the other option for
actors is to not come back and be a part
of the local scene. So, um, I hope we see
her involved in some Australian productions soon.

S1 (36:14):
I don't want to put, um, like PR people on
blast too much because I know that they listen to
this show and we work with them like day to day.
But the lack of proactive. Promotion of this show, which features,
as you've said, not only an up and coming and
really interesting and really good Australian actor, but also someone

(36:35):
of the calibre of Jacki Weaver is kind of disappointing. Like,
I don't know what. Disney+. We've mentioned this a couple
of times. It's very confusing. So in the US, this
is a show that was produced by FX, which streams
on Hulu, which is in America, called FX on Hulu,
which in Australia is a channel of Disney+. So there's
so many strange, weird, boring streaming like. Processes here that

(36:58):
may be impacted this. But if I was Disney+ and
I'm in a fragmented streaming landscape, I would be shouting
from the rooftops. There is a show coming out with
Laurence Fishburne, which you all know from, like The Matrix
and a bunch of stuff and two Australian actresses of
different generations that is getting rave reviews. You guys should
watch it and they just haven't done that. It is

(37:20):
not great, but hopefully us talking about it will encourage
people to check it out.

S3 (37:24):
I know, I hope so because I was when I
saw that they were releasing this, they released two to
start and then they're going weekly for the six. I
was okay with the weekly release because I was like, great,
we can all talk about it every week. And then
I was like, oh, I have no one to talk
to about it, because, yeah, I think it's completely flown
under the radar. And I don't know if they thought
maybe the basketball cell wouldn't work here, but with Jacki Weaver,

(37:45):
they get a whole new audience.

S5 (37:46):
You know what else.

S1 (37:46):
Is happening right now? The playoffs are freaking happening. Like
basketball is a huge thing right now. It seems like
such a strange moment.

S2 (37:53):
But even internationally, I don't think this show is getting
quite as much buzz as maybe they would have hoped
when they were making it. And I don't know if
that's because there's been so many basketball stories recently that
people feel a bit checked out on it. Yeah, but
I mean, it is worth watching. And so that shouldn't
be a deterrent for anyone listening.

S1 (38:08):
And I think the other part of the show that
had contemporary resonance for me and very happy, if you
guys think that I'm just being crazy here, but we
have a main character called Donald who is like a
property billionaire who is brought undone by a leaked audio
recordings of him being very mean about like marginalized and
vulnerable people that coming out like in an election year

(38:31):
where Donald Trump is back, it doesn't feel accidental. Like
I feel like this is also a bit of a
interrogation of the kind of man that has been built
up in America and is allowed to just run things.
And even though sterling, like sterling's consequences in real life,
were not up to this bit in the show yet,
he's forced to sell his company for $2 billion like
it's he didn't go to jail. He didn't really face

(38:52):
any consequences. I think there's another layer of social resonance
to this show, too.

S3 (38:57):
Yeah, I completely agree. It's very timely. And it's also
obviously speaking to the now as much as it is
recounting the history of that time. And it's a reminder
of why we don't like to let powerful men go
unchecked and why hopefully we've moved forward as a society
from that time. Maybe it's a.

S2 (39:15):
Conspiracy, these PR Republicans trying to hold it down.

S5 (39:19):
Yeah.

S1 (39:20):
Um, well, speaking of, um, insane egotistical maniacs, that brings
us to our second show.

S6 (39:27):
Ever, Renaissance Faire. And the United States came into being
because they wanted to be like George. He's got this
whole thing.

S9 (39:36):
He's the ruler.

S10 (39:38):
He's not crazy. He's just thinking on a level that
you can't comprehend.

S9 (39:42):
I don't know what's going to happen to it after
he's gone, because if he ain't working it, it don't work. George. George. George. George. George.

S11 (39:53):
The perfect way to go would be have a woman
screw me to death. And that's my goal.

S1 (40:01):
Ren faire has been called a combination of succession and
Willy Wonka. It's executive produced by the Safdies, who've recently
teamed up to give us The Curse and Telemarketers. Renfer
is a documentary set in Texas's biggest Renaissance Faire. I
don't really have much of a relationship to Renaissance fairs. Um, my.

(40:23):
They're basically these like, you know, reconstructions of medieval villages, castles,
and there's jousting and sword fighting and role playing. I
kind of only know about them from that Simpsons episode
where they go to one and Lisa. Speaks that fortune
teller and like gets her future. Either of you guys
been to a renaissance fair?

S3 (40:41):
I'm so surprised I can actually see you being a
big Renaissance fair. Hair like, I think that totally. I can.

S5 (40:47):
Imagine you.

S3 (40:47):
Dressing up and being like her. Tears are just like.

S5 (40:52):
Just.

S1 (40:52):
I do like to dress up and drink if that's. Yeah.

S3 (40:55):
Wearing, like, chain chain gear. I can totally see you
doing this. And you'd have, like, a different persona. I
don't know what your name would be. Osman the Great.
And yeah, I think you should consider it actively as
a hobby that you could.

S1 (41:06):
Well, when I was doing research on this, I did
discover there are quite a few Australian Renaissance fairs as well.
So maybe we should. We should send someone to them.

S5 (41:14):
You, me.

S1 (41:15):
Meg. Your rent fair. Rent fair.

S5 (41:17):
Person.

S2 (41:17):
No, I've never seen one in the wild. I do
have friends who do that kind of live action role
play stuff. Yeah, um, but I've never attended. Sorry to
any of them are listening.

S5 (41:29):
Well, okay.

S1 (41:29):
So all of us had probably a bit of a
wacky first encounter with this show. It's a three part series,
and in the very first episode, we quickly understand that
this isn't just like a silly little thing. This is
a giant corporate enterprise. There's millions of dollars at stake
in terms of the running of these fairs. The people
at the top seem to be making a lot of money.
The Texas Renaissance Fair, which is the one that we're

(41:52):
focusing in on in this show, was founded and it's
owned by a man called King George. Uh, it's super popular,
super lucrative, and he's also very politically influential. He's actually
the mayor of the local community in Texas, where this, uh,
Renaissance Fair is based. Uh, George is old, he's 86,
and he's going to die soon. So a power struggle

(42:13):
erupts amongst some of his lieutenants who are looking for control,
taking over this insane, believe it or not, real life institution. Um,
a couple of the people battling it out, there's Jeff.
He's worked at the festival for more than 40 years,
and he's got an old school approach, and he seems
to be George's anointed successor, keeping the fair going as

(42:33):
it's been. And then there's Louis, who wants to kind
of soup it up, make it technologically advanced, and take
the fair to another level. There's like a very weird
and pretty crazy show. It's a doco, but it's shot
almost like a drama. The way you get this like
B-roll that seems to suggest this is a real world.
There's a lot of crazy, larger than life characters. Uh,

(42:56):
there's a lot of talk about loyalty, there's maneuvering, there's
some brutal behind the scenes power plays, and King George
himself doesn't feel like a real person, but he kind
of is. How did you guys find this show?

S5 (43:08):
I think.

S2 (43:08):
You should go.

S5 (43:08):
First. Oh.

S1 (43:10):
Um. Okay. Uh, I thought it was really interesting show. Uh,
I thought it was really interesting and really good for
a couple of reasons. I did not know anything about
this world, but I became pretty invested in it quickly
because I think the show without labouring the point. Makes
you realize that even though on the surface this seems

(43:32):
like it's silly people playing up as knights, this is
actually about like a corporate power struggle. Like one of
the one of the guys going after control of this.
His like family are investors, and it's basically just another
struggle for money and power in a very like modern
American corporate sense. But with this layer of wacky characters

(43:55):
pretending to be knights and jousting, King George is like,
so insane and so compelling. And again, like the Donald
Sterling thing we were just talking about, it's crazy to
me that a guy who is this old, who is
like on sugar daddy websites and is really explicit about
what kinds of women he wants to date, they have
to be this old. They have to be this fit.

(44:16):
They can't have plastic surgery is just allowed to be
the boss of something that employs hundreds and hundreds of
people and is like the mayor. So I like I
think this is what the Safdies have been doing so
well with both the curse and telemarketers lately, is finding
these completely insane stories and plots and characters and just
being like, this is actually how America works, and whether

(44:37):
it's a fair, whether it's a basketball team, whether it's politics,
we are ruled by insane old crazy men, and the
rest of us are just kind of subject to their whims.
That's kind of my read on the show and why
I enjoyed it. I get the feeling from your aggressive
question to me, you.

S5 (44:56):
Said you wanted to be.

S2 (44:57):
Asked off on the pod. I'm being generous.

S1 (44:59):
Um, it didn't hit as much for.

S2 (45:01):
You know, I think I went in with different expectations,
like so I heard that it's a documentary about this
bizarre community, this Renaissance fair that's taken over a whole town.
What a wacky situation. It's got this crazy guy at
the at the helm. Um, I feel like I went
in with the expectation that it's this kind of documentary,
and there's a rich history of these that go into

(45:22):
a niche community and understand why people do these things.
Why did he set this up? Who are the people
who run it, who dedicate their lives to something like this?
What are the stories behind there? And in most cases,
texts like that really are affectionate towards their subjects or,
you know, understanding of why they leave, live their lives
the way they do. And I think I was more

(45:43):
primed for that. And as much as I, I recognize
all the points you said, and I do enjoy watching this,
you know, frankly, crazy guy boast about his ornate baroque toilet. Um,
it was just a strange cold watch to me because
it's not as though I was waiting for the, you know,

(46:04):
Renaissance fair community to be taken down a notch. It's
not succession. We're not. It's not these figureheads who we
all know run the world. It's a very specific situation,
which I didn't feel was quite as ripe for interrogation.
Or even if you have that, I just wanted more
warmth within it. It's set up as a succession battle,
and I'm not really given the stakes, is why I care.

S1 (46:25):
Yeah, and there's not. That's a fair point. And you
don't get the closest you seem to sympathize with anyone
is just like the regular workers at this fair. But
you don't really get enough of a sense know of
who they are. They're sort of being yelled at and
being told to like, be better at their jobs. And
they clearly cogs in this machine, which makes a lot
of money for people at the top. But there's no
one to kind of hold on to and be like,

(46:45):
what does this mean for the guy making popcorn? Or
the guy who just goes in every day and beats
someone up with a sword, or gets beaten up with
a sword?

S2 (46:53):
Yeah, it kind of. It reminded me a bit of
Tiger King in a sense, where it's like the goal
of the documentary is to come in and be like,
look at these freaks.

S1 (47:00):
Yeah, I think, I think it probably is in that
vein of Tiger King. That's a really good comparison. Um, Mel,
what about you?

S3 (47:06):
Yeah, I completely agree that there was no outsider voice
to guide you through the insanity of this, and we
needed someone to kind of represent us there. I really
wanted to like this. I love the Safdie brothers. I
thought The telemarketers was one of the best shows of
the year, but I think that this show tries so
hard to point out the insanity of the situation, that

(47:27):
it misses the fact that absurdity actually comes through when
you just kind of let humanity be quiet. To me,
this show was so overdirected I had like sensory overstimulation.
I could not handle it. And I know don't come
at me because I get what he's trying to do.
It's like it's an artificial thing.

S5 (47:43):
I'm not gonna come at you like to.

S3 (47:44):
Have an opinion, tell me you're gonna say, oh, it's
an artificial world. So he's trying to match the film.

S5 (47:49):
But you just stick to delivering your take before.

S1 (47:51):
You try to do my take in response to your take.

S5 (47:53):
Yeah, I just preempting.

S3 (47:55):
I'm just preempting. So, um. Yeah, I get like, he's
trying to be he's trying to forefront the artifice of
this show through these over the top filmmaking techniques. But
I think the intention when you do that, when you
foreground the artifice, is to hit a authenticity in the show.
And this show does not feel authentic to me in
any way. And it is so set up and choreographed

(48:17):
that every single scene, to me feels like it was
really heavily scripted, and I wouldn't be surprised if this
is like a case of the rehearsal kind of they're
pulling that move again where they're. Going to come out
and be like, yeah, it wasn't real at all because
there are some shots that there is no way those
people authentically were having those moments, conversations, situations. And yeah,

(48:38):
I just found the over shot over, directed over lit
over music stuff of it all was too much and
it stole from what could have been an otherwise good story.
And I do think the comparisons it keeps being oh,
it's Game of Thrones meets Vanderpump Rules.

S5 (48:53):
The director said he was.

S3 (48:54):
Influenced by there Will Be Blood, P.T. Anderson. It in
no way could you put that in this show in
the same sentence as any of those. He is wildly
out of his mind about what he was doing with this.

S2 (49:05):
It seems like it should be one or the other.
They should have gone full documentary and done like a
Luther Road style thing, where you would have that authorial
presence to make sense of it all, or just make
a scripted drama and then say it's based on a
true story and people be like, whoa.

S1 (49:17):
I look, I don't really disagree with what you said, Mel. Like,
I think they're all very fair critiques and I'm not like,
so hype on this show that I'm offended that you've
criticized it. Um, the director, this guy, Lance Oppenheim, he's
made some films and done some short film stuff. I
think this is his first TV show, and he's probably
trying to he's probably got more of a budget than

(49:37):
he ever thought he would. Um, with the safdies behind him, um,
and HBO documentary backing this, and he's really leant into it.
What I thought was interesting was interesting in watching this uh,
alongside clip is this is a real world that has been, like,
shot to make you think that it's like a drama
in terms of, like the color grading and the direction
and the scripting. You're right. There are these moments where

(50:00):
either they're doing a reconstructions or they've just said, you
now call this person will have cameras on both of you.
It's very like heavy handed in its storytelling, and that
way feels very much like the rehearsal. It's just interesting
to see a show where it is quote unquote, real
people in a real setting made to look like it's

(50:20):
a drama. And then you compare it to something like clipped,
which is a fictional retelling of something that happened that
is supposed to make you feel like you're watching real
characters play things out. I don't know whether there's both
of those things happening at the same time. That just
made me really appreciate the fact that they weren't going
for the Louis Theroux like, super gonzo realistic thing. I
haven't really seen a documentary made to look this fake

(50:44):
and dramatic, if that makes sense. I just thought that
was like an interesting, interesting move.

S2 (50:48):
I find it interesting as an object, as a thought experiment,
but I don't find it enjoyable to watch.

S3 (50:53):
Yeah, and none of the characters, as Meg mentioned earlier,
are particularly nice. I just don't think what the documentary
makers thought was so wow, like, I think they wanted
us to be like, wow, this is so insane. Here's
this 86 year old who's named his appendage Leonard, or
whatever he's called it.

S1 (51:08):
You don't think that's insane?

S3 (51:09):
Well, I do, but I think they're trying so hard
to make us feel like it's insane. Whereas what I
want to know is that woman who's doing the dating
app searching. I want more of her. And you mentioned, like,
there's not enough role playing. I want to see them
doing more of their roles in the fair. I want
to understand how that works and the history works more.
But they didn't give much context. They just went to
these quite unlikable characters. And yeah, it kind of just

(51:32):
fell flat for me there.

S1 (51:34):
So we've all seen the first episode. There's a three
part series on binge. Do you think you will at
least finish the series? You guys just like that didn't
hit for me. I'm done.

S3 (51:44):
I've watched two apps. I will watch the third just
so I can maintain my level of frustration about the show. Like,
I don't want to be. I don't want to risk.
I don't want to risk not pre-empting your response to
me if I haven't seen the third one. So I
will continue on.

S2 (51:57):
What about you? I've only watched the first, so based
on Mel's review, I'm going to tap out now.

S5 (52:01):
Yeah, yeah.

S3 (52:02):
I think we're on the same page with this one.

S1 (52:04):
Yeah, I think I might make it to the end
and it'll be interesting to check in with you, Mel,
whether or not any of your, uh, views have shifted. But,
you know, that's great thing about criticism and talking to
smart people is we don't have to agree.

S3 (52:16):
We don't. It's open discussion.

S5 (52:18):
Here.

S1 (52:20):
Sounds like you got a gun to your head.

S5 (52:21):
When I said.

S1 (52:23):
I think Thomas would have liked it. Just for the record.

S3 (52:25):
Ah, I don't know. I think it might be a
bit too, um, a bit too much for him.

S5 (52:32):
Wow. Not intellectually. Intellectually, yeah. No. Just one too many.

S1 (52:37):
Characters for him to keep a track of with his.

S5 (52:38):
Notepad.

S3 (52:39):
I feel like he might find it annoying, though. You think? Well, yeah.
I mean, I can actually see both of you going
to the fair as well, so.

S1 (52:45):
Well, yeah. I mean, maybe that's a fun thing that
we can all commit to is let's all try to
get to a Renaissance fair.

S2 (52:50):
I'd much rather do that. Yeah.

S3 (52:52):
Um, when I was in primary school, they sent us
to the. I don't know if it still exists, but there's, like,
a colonial village in New South Wales where you go and.
Old Sydney.

S1 (52:58):
Town. I don't think that exists anymore. Yeah, we went.

S5 (53:00):
To that too, for good.

S3 (53:01):
Reason. And I, I enjoyed being like a milkmaid for
the day, so I don't know.

S5 (53:05):
I'm sure it was pretty.

S1 (53:07):
Good back then. If you had your skin tone. Mel.

S5 (53:10):
Yeah. It doesn't feel.

S3 (53:11):
Like something that would have aged well. So, uh, goodbye,
old Sydney Town. Yeah.

S1 (53:15):
What were the, uh, kind of social structures like in
medieval towns? Probably not. Not great for women. Not great
for people like me, I imagine.

S5 (53:23):
Yeah.

S2 (53:23):
I don't think so.

S3 (53:24):
Yeah. I think we would have struggled. But it feels
like from this show at least we can take away that,
you know, being an elephant trainer or making whatever that
corn guy makes or like solid rolls, the.

S1 (53:34):
Kettle corn guy. Um. All right. Well, we are on
to our regular Impress Your Friends segment where we share
something we watched, read, listen to, or otherwise consumed in
the world of culture. Meg, because you're the special guest,
you get to go first. What have you got for us?

S2 (53:49):
Thank you. Um, my recommendation is Elsbeth, which is a
show I reckon zero people have heard of.

S5 (53:57):
I've heard of it. I've heard of it. Great.

S2 (53:59):
Um, so it is, uh, it's just had its season
finale on Paramount Plus. The entire first season is up
for streaming now. Um, it's a spin off of a
character from The Good Wife and The Good Fight.

S1 (54:12):
Two of the best and most underrated shows of, like,
the past.

S2 (54:15):
Which is why I think no one has watched the show.

S3 (54:17):
And you're famously a huge fan of those, aren't you?

S2 (54:19):
I am, and I only just watched this this week. Um,
it follows a character called Elsbeth Tascioni, who is a
Chicago defense attorney. Uh, she had kind of bit roles
in the prior two shows as this kind of zany, uh,
eccentric lawyer who would come in and people would underestimate
all the time because she's wearing, like, 500 floral prints

(54:41):
and carrying, like, a velvet bag and saying silly girly things.
And then she'll solve the case and get some guy
off for murder. Um, that's pretty much the premise of
the new show. So it follows just her in New
York instead of Chicago this time, and she is essentially
following around the NYPD as, uh, the the police of

(55:02):
the police. She's like a witness to them doing their cases.
And it's kind of like a Columbo of style procedural
where she is solving murders before the police or fixing
the mistakes that they make. And it's such a fun
format that you don't see as much anymore. Obviously, we
saw it with Russian Doll that was so successful and
so fun. This is a different tone than that. It's

(55:24):
a lot lighter, fun, frothy. She's such a silly character
that you kind of just get to follow her having
a fun time in NYC each week. There's different characters
who come on. Jane Krakowski from 30 Rock has a
bit as this New York realtor who's, like, selling apartments
to Oprah and, um, Jesse Tyler Ferguson from Modern Family
plays this Andy Cohen type character, um, in a Real

(55:46):
Housewives murder. And it's called Lavish Ladies. Awesome. Um, yeah,
it's a lot of fun. And I mean, it's a
bit strange recommending a show, a fun show about the
NYPD post, uh, everything. But, I mean, it feels like
after Brooklyn Nine-Nine, we were like, we've tapped out on that, right? But, uh,
I kind of trust the creators of this show enough
to find that balance. Even in just the first couple

(56:07):
of episodes, there's hints that it's not, as you know,
she's there to help the cops. There's there's things that
she's investigating within the cops as well. Um, and yeah,
I just trust their judgment so much as The Good
Wife and The Good Fight were so good on these issues.

S1 (56:21):
And so is it, like, political in the way that
those shows are as well, or a bit less.

S5 (56:27):
So it's.

S2 (56:27):
Less so it feels very fun and frothy, as I said.
But I think there are without spoilers, um, some questions
that get asked down the line. Okay. Um, and that's,
you know, how the good fight functioned as well. In particular,
it started as a bit of a, you know, workplace
procedural show about a black law firm. And then as

(56:48):
the Trump presidency rolled on, it became something very different.
By the.

S1 (56:51):
End, it just became a completely insane reaction to.

S2 (56:55):
America, all about the rise of fascism and white nationalism.
And suddenly Christine Baranski was tripping acid every day. Um,
I don't know if that's how this show is going
to end up, but for the moment, it's a lot
of fun. It's kind of like an only murders in
the building type vibe, like across with that, an SVU.

S1 (57:11):
I mean, everything you're saying is making me want to
watch it, but I mean, to your point, I am
so in the bag for. The good fight, and I
haven't gotten around to watching this yet, but thank you
for reminding me that it exists. Paramount plus, you know,
for the 17 of you that have it. Um, uh,
mine is also a TV show set in New York City.
Do you guys know Julio Torres, who's a writer on SNL?

(57:34):
I was not really across their work, but they've made
a couple of shows, and they had a film that
came out last year, this is on binge. It's, uh,
called Fantasmas, and it's executive produced by Emma Stone. And
this is a completely insane show. So there's like a
bit of a plot to this. Julio Torres is just
like a guy in New York who goes to a

(57:55):
jewelry store one day, buys an gold oyster earring, loses
it at the club that night, and goes on this
like crazy nighttime adventure throughout New York City to try
to find it and meets all these crazy characters along
the way. Kind of like Scorsese's After Hours. Um, but
it's also a very fantastical dream. Like show where he

(58:17):
watches these TV shows within the show, and he meets
his characters, and it becomes like a bit of a
sketch comedy, like there's a sketch where Paul Dano plays
the dad in that 80 show. Alf, you know, with
the like, puppet alien. Except in this version, Paul Dano
really wants to fuck Alf, and the drama that that

(58:37):
then creates in his family is, like, so funny and
so weird. It's a really hard show to describe, but
I promise you it's like very funny, it's very sharp
and there's heaps of amazing, like, guest stars throughout it. Um,
Steve Buscemi plays the letter Q, who's very upset about
where they come in the order of the alphabet, which
I never thought about before, which makes sense. It's like

(58:58):
Q should be done with like the X's and the Z's.
What is it doing in between, like the P's and
the R's and the S's? It doesn't really make sense anyway.
Steve Buscemi really has a fun bit about that. Um,
this is a really fun show. Uh, and I think
it's flying a little bit under the radar because Julio
Torres isn't that well known. But I love that Emma
Stone is just involved in all these, like, crazy, crazy

(59:21):
TV projects at the moment. So check it out. It's
on binge.

S3 (59:24):
Yes, these are both great suggestions, which I will, uh,
definitely watch. Um, it feels like a good kind of
something to turn to once we've moved past Ren Faire.

S5 (59:33):
Um, um, and.

S1 (59:34):
Speaking of good suggestions, Mel, why don't you round this out?

S3 (59:37):
Well, mine, fittingly, kind of seems to stick with the
theme of the episode. It is sociopath a memoir, um,
which is written by Patrick Gagner, and it's about a
woman who, when she is younger, starts to discover that
she doesn't seem to interact with others or experience emotions
the way, um, her friends and family do. And she

(59:58):
acts out quite consistently as a young person. She stabs
her girl with with a pencil in her head. She's
kind of choking kittens. All the things you might traditionally
associate with quote unquote, um, sociopathic behavior. Um, as she
gets older, she starts a psychology degree and she starts
to kind of self-diagnose as a sociopath. But her story

(01:00:18):
is really interesting. But more than that, the kind of
framework around diagnosing people as sociopaths, which is not actually
a medical condition, psychopathy, the kind of misunderstanding of these
terms and how it's played out in popular culture, and
then actually in treatment of people who experience emotions in
this way is really interesting. And it's kind of an

(01:00:39):
added layer to her personal story of coming to terms
with it and managing it. It's a really interesting read. Um,
one of my best friends is a clinical psychologist, and
she works with children who have callous, unemotional traits. And
so I've just been texting her the entire time being like,
is this really how you would do it? Like, is
this really what happens? So, um, yeah, it's if you

(01:00:59):
like medical memoirs.

S2 (01:01:01):
What did she say? Did it check out?

S3 (01:01:02):
Well, now there's apparently a lot of chat about this
author who is a self-professed psychopath and a self-professed liar.
And no one can find her PhD because she is
meant to be a doctorate. Um, so everyone's gone down
the the on the Reddit threads are all going wild.
We can't find a published article that she's done. There's
no record of the PhD. So it's kind of spitting
out of out of the page as well. So, um, yeah,

(01:01:24):
it's a it's a good read.

S1 (01:01:25):
That's very exciting. And you're right, I feel like my
entire conception of what a sociopath or a psychopath is,
is just based on movies and like, what they tell
me and, like, movies are probably wrong sometimes with things.

S3 (01:01:36):
Yeah, that's the thing. Like, people often use the terms
interchangeably and they've got different sets. And again, sociopath isn't
really a label that actual people would apply.

S1 (01:01:46):
So I'm I'm more of a sociopath or a psychopath.
Would you say.

S3 (01:01:50):
Uh, probably a psychopath? I think a.

S1 (01:01:53):
Psychopathic question to ask, isn't it?

S3 (01:01:55):
Well, no. Yeah. And exactly a sociopath maybe wouldn't question,
but a psychopath kind of knows what's going on but
chooses to do it anyway. So you're probably the worst one.

S5 (01:02:06):
That is a great.

S1 (01:02:07):
Great way to end this wacky podcast. Um, Mel, thanks
so much.

S3 (01:02:12):
Thank you for not calling me Meg.

S5 (01:02:15):
Meg.

S1 (01:02:15):
Great to have you on. Thanks so much.

S2 (01:02:17):
Thanks for having me.

S1 (01:02:18):
See you guys.

S5 (01:02:19):
Bye.

S1 (01:02:23):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Kai Wong.
If you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop,
make sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app.
Leave us a review or better yet, share the episode
with a friend. I'm Osman Farooqui. See you next week!