The stylish, divisive 'Blink Twice', Oasis is back, and 'Industry' gets even better

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:07):
Hey, I'm Osman Farooqui and this is The Drop, a
weekly culture show from the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age,
where we dive into the latest in the world of
pop culture and entertainment made with Thomas Mitchell and Meg Watson.
How're you going, pals?

S2 (00:21):
Going good. I've been blasting Wonderwall for 48 hours straight.
Ready to go?

S1 (00:28):
I'm excited to get into that one with you guys.
How are you doing, Thomas? Yeah, not too bad.

S3 (00:33):
Lots of conflicted emotions this morning. You know, I've just
seen that Thanasi Kokkinakis has knocked out Stefanos Tsitsipas out
of the US open in round one. So you know
great for the Greek Australian. But this is kind of
the great Greek hope of tennis.

S1 (00:49):
So you have a preference between the two of those.
As a Greek Australian I would assume it would be Kokkinakis.

S3 (00:55):
Yeah. But I feel like Sisyphus is more likely to
go all the way I see.

S1 (00:59):
I see. So we've just knocked out a Greek, and
the other Greek is probably going to lose in the
next round. Exactly.

S3 (01:03):
Probably to a Russian or something.

S1 (01:05):
So it feels this is like lateral Greek on Greek
violence that this, that this tournament did not need. Whoever
drew those, you know, drew those rounds had something against
you guys.

S3 (01:14):
I know. Just be thankful that Kyrgios isn't involved creating
the sideshow that he does. So yeah, there's a lot
to process. But I am also very happy about the
Oasis news in news that will shock nobody. I love Oasis,
so yeah. Big week.

S1 (01:28):
Yeah we are we are going to get into it.
Look it's a big show as well. It's going to
be a fun show. It's my last show with you guys.
We did think long and hard about whether we should
do something fun and wacky, like a highlight reel. Of
all the times I was wrong about various things, but
when deciding the best way to sign off, we ultimately
went with just a normal episode where we provide smart

(01:48):
and fun conversations about what's happening in culture that feels fitting.
So here's what's in store for today's episode. We're going
to be discussing the very stylish yet very divisive debut
film from Zoe Kravitz. It's called Blink Twice. We're going
to discuss where it fits in the landscape of what
I'm calling post-metoo thrillers. We also have the very fun,

(02:11):
very exciting news that Oasis, the band that, yes, as
you guessed, served as both the aesthetic and moral compass
for Thomas for a very long time. They're reforming and
they're playing, and there's going to be a lot to discuss.
We're also going to talk about industry's third episode of
this season. At the very end of this episode, I
have a special interview with Australian actor Charlie Vickers, who

(02:34):
plays the role of Sauron in the Lord of the
Rings The Rings of Power. It's the most watched show
in Amazon Prime Video's history. It's a pretty fun and
interesting chat. I'll say more about that at the end
of the episode. But first up, there's some news in
TV land. It looks like Ted Lasso, one of the
most popular TV shows of this streaming era we're living

(02:55):
in is returning for a fourth season. Deadline reported that
Apple has started locking down returning cast members in contracts
and taking up their options. It's been more than a
year since season three wrapped up. I think it's sort
of safe to say that it was a bit of
a middling third season, but the show was enormously popular,

(03:15):
and I think still is for I'm going to like
maybe sorry if you're offended by this, like people like
my parents really like Ted Lasso. Um, how are you
guys feeling about the state of the Ted Lasso verse?
Are you excited about the season four news? Are you indifferent?
What do you think?

S3 (03:30):
I think that, like, if ever there was a case
of backed by mild demand, this is it. Like, I
feel like season three was such a kind of middling
season plagued by, I guess, like offset narratives around the show,
which weren't very positive. And then add into that a
season that generally didn't match the quality of the first

(03:52):
two seasons. And like you said, I think it was,
you know, a moment in time when we needed the
kind of aw, shucks Ned Flannery vibe of Ted Lasso.
And that time is over. Season three proved that. And
I guess Apple were just like, well, this is a
big product for us. People love it. You know, it's
got all these big names. We just obviously will bring
it back if we can, you know, get everything over

(04:13):
the line. But I just I think it is out
of whack with what the culture wants. And I suspect
should they get everyone back on board? It'll probably be
the last season. Uh, to use a football analogy. Ted
Lasso is currently in extra time, and we don't really
need a penalty shootout.

S2 (04:32):
Oh my God. Gary Neville over there. Like, like everyone else,
I was on board with season one, you know, as
a fresh breath of fresh air in lockdowns and new thing.
A bit of fun. This news makes me want to
shoot myself in my face.

S1 (04:45):
Oh my God, you really are spending too much time
with me. This is a real classic autism.

S2 (04:49):
You've got to have a strong take, right? And I
really strongly feel this way. Season three was I watched
it out of obligation, I guess, to be some kind
of completionist, but it was like it wasn't middling. It
was awful. It was like written by I. Every episode
was like an after school special, treating its audience like
12 year olds who didn't know what, like being gay
or revenge porn was. It was awful. And they even said,

(05:12):
like Jason Sudeikis said from the outset, it was a
three season story. And if they're not willing to call
it time after that season, like it's so depressing.

S1 (05:19):
Hearing you talk about those plot points makes me realize
I don't think I even finished season three, which says
a lot about this show.

S2 (05:27):
I mean, it literally ended with him going back to
the States and like being with his son. And the
last episode was called like, So Long, farewell. Like we're done.
We gotta call it.

S1 (05:36):
I guess this is like this, this big question, right?
Because you've got creatives who have this three season arc
potentially in the middle of that. There's all this kind
of drama and rumor about Sudeikis, just always like personal
life and maybe some issues on set. We never really
got total clarity about it, but the production was was
halted and it just seems like even their vision sort

(05:58):
of started to fall apart because of what was going on.
That butts up against the fact that Apple, like a
publicly listed company, has stumbled onto an extremely popular show
that drove enormous amounts of subscriptions to their network. So
you can imagine that the leadership at the company are like, okay,
why are we stopping this? Even if, like, critics don't

(06:18):
like it, I think most normal people watched it. Please,
just like make more of this. The fact it's taken
more than a year since season three ended for us
to get this news, Sudeikis isn't confirmed. You can imagine
he's probably just like, milking them like this could end
up being one of the most lucrative TV deals for him. But, like, yeah,
I mean, both of you guys seem to be saying

(06:40):
the same thing. No one really wants this, do they?

S2 (06:43):
I feel like some people masked because it was consistently
like the top show on Apple. And I mean, like,
how much does that say? Apple doesn't have that many shows,
but I think it is one of the ones that people,
even if you didn't have a consistent Apple subscription, you'd
sign back up and like see what's going on. And like,
I mean, I really didn't like season two either, but
I still checked back in, out of interest. Um, like

(07:04):
people watch it. And I suppose that counts for more
than what critics think, or the fact that it's not
like the Emmys juggernaut it was in season one.

S3 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, I kind of agree. I think it
probably is like a really smart play from Sudeikis. I
kind of got the feeling, obviously. I think what's happened
is the UK cast members, they're on different like kind
of award contracts. So they've signed up earlier. So we
obviously don't know who from the American cast will return.
But I could also see a world in which like
I mean, obviously the show is called Ted Lasso and

(07:31):
that's who Jason Sudeikis plays. But like, could we arguably
his character I think is like the least interesting now. Like,
could we see a version of the show where, you know,
he is either like a cameo and it's mostly about
the remaining cast members back in the UK. That's possible,
but yeah, um, I just don't know if if anyone

(07:51):
cares anymore.

S2 (07:52):
The Ted Lasso extended universe.

S1 (07:54):
Well, people people were talking about that. People were kind
of like there was discussion in TV land that Apple
was investigating spin offs about, you know, Coach Beard or
the guy that was the good guy who then became
the bad guy. I can't remember the guy's name. Yeah. Nate. Um,
and I just think that, like, even if that was
a thing, that we were all part of me, like,
I also really enjoyed the first season. The second season

(08:16):
a little bit less. So I wonder whether we were
all caught up in a bit of a Covid fever
dream for a little while.

S2 (08:20):
I wonder that did I have brain worms? I don't know.

S1 (08:22):
I think it just like it was this antidote to
the negativity and anxiety we felt. And yeah, it's like
fine to feel wholesome and watch something like that. I
watched that first season multiple times over the course of
multiple lockdowns. I think if it lands at any other
point where like, this is like a fine, kind of
weird show, like almost everything else Apple TV does or

(08:43):
what we see in the streaming era. So yeah, just like, okay,
this was a nice thing that happened at a dark
time for so many people. That's all it needs to be.
We don't need to do more lasso stuff.

S2 (08:52):
I think Americans really like it, though. Derogatory.

S3 (08:56):
It's like we, you know, we agreed unanimously that we
would stop baking sourdough. And then we also do not
need any more Ted Lasso. But anyway, I don't the
people at Apple famously don't really listen to me, which
is annoying. So they will do what they want to do.

S1 (09:10):
The people on Apple Podcasts do enjoy listening to us though.
Shout out to you guys!

S3 (09:15):
I've always been more of a Spotify guy, but.

S1 (09:19):
Speaking of listening to stuff, Oasis.

S4 (09:22):
Today is gonna be the day that they're gonna throw
it back to you. By now, you should have somehow
realized what you gotta do. I don't believe that anybody
feels the way I do about you now.

S1 (09:41):
Britpop legends, famously the most fractious brother duo music relationship
in like music history. Perhaps they are reforming. It's been
a very, very, very long time since Oasis performed. It's
been 20 years since they performed in Australia. Just as
a bit of an indication as to like how long
ago these guys were last. Really hot and big and

(10:04):
touring together. They have announced they're going to be playing
14 dates across the UK and Ireland and Wales in
the middle of next year. They're strongly hinting at a
global tour as well, though anything in Australia is yet
to be confirmed. I will say something. You guys know me,
listeners know me. I'm generally a pretty cynical person about

(10:26):
many things, and I also think there is a part
of this decision to reform that feels cynical. Like, again,
I'm sure they've been handed enormous amounts of money for this.
But all that aside, I don't feel anything other than
just like, excitement about this news. I'm not here to
like rain on People's parade and say this is all

(10:47):
just a big cash grab. I think this is really
nice and exciting news. I think the sheer volume of
the reaction, there's all the people coming out of the
woodwork talking about what it meant to be young and
working class in Britain in the 90s, and what Oasis
meant to them. Older fans, younger fans, people who have
Oasis tattoos. Thomas, whose personality was driven by wanting to

(11:09):
look like Liam Gallagher for such a long time. It's
just nice and like, you know, Oasis has never been
my favourite band. But, you know, I've belted Wonderwall out
karaoke like a trillion times. That album, Champagne Supernova, like
they're all they make great songs that were very, very
reflective of that moment in kind of rock history, and
it's really exciting that they're giving it another crack. I

(11:30):
am really keen to know about your guys's relationship to
this band and how you feel. Thomas, I think I'm
going to start.

S2 (11:36):
Yeah, you got to start with Thomas.

S1 (11:38):
You did? I should just say that you. You posted
a photo in our work slack this morning of you
dressed as Liam Gallagher with a photo of him alongside it.
Was that for, like, a party, or did you just
happen to look like him that day? And someone pointed
out that you look exactly like him?

S3 (11:54):
No, it was. It was for a dress up party. Um,
but I thought it was actually pretty good in terms of,
you know, as far as celebrity lookalikes go, that was
not a bad one. Yeah. I mean, look, obviously this
is very exciting news. I think it was so funny,
like watching it all play out on social media and
stuff and everyone on my feed, you know, like the
aging millennial men, the hair is maybe receding, the paunch

(12:16):
is pinching, the Parker doesn't fit so tight anymore. And
yet we are excited. I obviously speak with a royal.
We there for all the sad men out there.

S5 (12:26):
Who.

S3 (12:27):
This brings back the crazy days of Britpop. I mean,
admittedly I was a little bit young for the height
of Britpop, but yeah, I have been a long time
Oasis fan. I saw them at the end. I'm just
trying to find like when the tour was. I can't
remember the last time, but I saw Oasis on a
tour and it was amazing.

S1 (12:42):
I think, I think it was 2005. I think that
was when they played the Enmore. Okay, cool.

S3 (12:45):
Yeah, right. So I must have been like, it must
have been young.

S2 (12:47):
Yeah.

S3 (12:48):
I was like, in year 11. Fucking killing it. SMP belt. Uh, yeah. Anyway,
that was a fun time for me and Oasis, but yeah,
it is very exciting. It's just I find the whole
thing very funny, though. Like, Noel is coming off the
back of a very expensive surprise divorce. Like, it's costing
him $20 million. And then literally, it was like last
month that was announced and now the tour. So, like,

(13:08):
did he get on the phone to Liam, be like, look,
I'm gonna level with you. I've taken quite the hit.
But yeah, whether or not they will come to Australia
remains to be seen. Like I on the way to
work this morning, I bumped into this guy I used
to work with English, 44 years old. So, like, right
there in the demo and before I even like, we
were both taking out our respective earbuds and he was

(13:28):
like Oasis. And then I was like, oh yeah, you know,
you're excited and stuff. And he's like, yeah, I've literally
got my boys chat from home. Has been lighting up
with like, mate, are you gonna fucking fly back to Wembley?
And he's got two young kids and he's like, fucking absolutely.
So yeah, men are in crisis about Oasis, I suppose.

S1 (13:47):
Well done Thomas. Um, yeah. Meg. How about how about you?

S2 (13:50):
Um, I missed the first wave. I think, like Thomas,
I was slightly too young. I was also a woman, so.

S5 (13:59):
That.

S2 (14:00):
Left me out of the main hype. I think back then,
in the late 90s, it was like the divisions between
pop and rock and what music women liked and men
liked or were able to like were very, quite stark. Yeah, I.

S1 (14:15):
Mean, Poptimism feels like a reaction to that exact moment. Yeah.
Men singing about whatever was so important. Yes. And women
are just like, it.

S2 (14:23):
Actually wasn't until I was 15 years old that I
had my first kind of like, oh, Oasis are this big.
And it came, I was I was in a Hungry
Jack's in regional New South Wales doing karaoke on a
Friday night, and every man in the venue was singing Wonderwall.
And I was like, I think I've heard this song,

(14:43):
but I did not know that it was like that.
Like everyone knew the words. It was a full sing along.
That was my first moment. But it's because, like, I
grew up in Spice Girls land, you know? Totally. And
Spice Girls girls couldn't like Noel and Liam Gallagher. That's
just not how it worked. Yeah. And so I was
I then later got into it, of course, because then,
you know, I started dating boys and they liked it.

S5 (15:03):
So it's the real.

S3 (15:04):
Montague Capulet story of our times, the Oasis Spice Girl.
But I mean, like, I think the weird thing is
because it has been so long and because they famously
fight and their fights are actually pretty funny and then,
you know, the whole like. And anyway, here's Wonderwall, meme
like Oasis as a thing has become like kind of
a punchline. But yeah, what's the story? Morning glory. And
definitely maybe they're like fucking almost no skip albums like

(15:27):
they are two really good records. The rest of their output,
I think is like, you know, up for debate. But 94, 95,
they were on a heater and I can't wait to
get back there.

S1 (15:36):
Yeah, I totally agree. I was flying back from Sydney
last night and I thought, why don't I just play
those two records? Their first two and I read the
entire Oasis Wikipedia page and it's so fun because you know,
that they fought and I guess, like, I didn't know
every single tour, they basically went on for ten years.
One of them would, like, quit halfway through and just

(15:56):
ruin everything. So there is a big question mark over.

S2 (15:58):
Boys are so emotional.

S5 (15:59):
Truly.

S1 (16:01):
There is a big question mark over how many of
these 14 dates like they will actually be able to.
I mean, the.

S5 (16:06):
Idea of them getting to.

S2 (16:07):
Australia, I don't know. I know even the.

S5 (16:09):
Flight, it's pretty.

S1 (16:10):
Slim. But um, Meg, I sort of had a similar moment,
like I was a teenage boy and I did listen
to Oasis and I did like them, but I don't
think I ever like I wasn't part of a kind
of like, big group of, like, guys who loved rock.
So I listened to Oasis, but I didn't really talk
to heaps of people, but that kind of music and
I remember I might have been like 18 at a
dive bar in Copenhagen on like my first Euro backpacking trip.

(16:33):
And the song just came on and every single person
belted it. People got up on chairs and tables and
started singing and I'm like, wow, that's nice. And I
think when we talk on this show about the way
that culture can bring people together and those kinds of
memories and stuff like Wonderwall, from being a genuine, joyous
song to becoming a meme to becoming a nostalgic hit,

(16:53):
to now everyone being excited to seeing them sing it
and perform it. I was really lucky in 2022 when
Liam did splendour, like he played Wonderwall and you know,
it was not the same thing, but it felt really special.
And being in the auditorium covered in mud, the sign
had been changed to splendour in the mud and like
seeing a song that I have played for 20 years

(17:14):
of my life live, it was really magical. So I'm
also just really happy it's happening. I'm really happy that
so many people will hopefully get to experience this, you know,
for the first time, or bring back some memories. They
are playing in Cardiff and Wales on my birthday. Um,
so if anyone wants to, you know, send me a
birthday gift I'm willing and able to receive. Well, you've just.

S3 (17:34):
Ruined the farewell gift that we had planned for you, so.

S1 (17:37):
Well, thanks so much, man. That's really generous of you.
It's not.

S3 (17:40):
It's actually tickets to see the Oasis tribute band, who
we will be speaking to this week. Keep an eye
out for the story coming soon.

S2 (17:46):
It's Thomas's band.

S1 (17:47):
All right, let's talk about blink twice.

S6 (17:50):
We're going to my island for a few days.

S7 (17:52):
Do you guys want to come?

S8 (17:54):
This is crazy.

S9 (17:57):
Did we just jet off to a billionaire's island with
a bunch of strangers? Oh, he's not a stranger. He's
later king.

S1 (18:02):
This is the directorial debut from Zoe Kravitz. It's co-written
by Kravitz and E.T. Feigenbaum, who's a director and wrote
some episodes of the High Fidelity TV show that Zoe
worked on. The film stars Naomi Ackie and Channing Tatum.
The movie opens with the character of Frida, played by
Naomi Ackie. She's working as a cocktail waitress at a

(18:25):
gala event hosted by Slater King, a tech billionaire played
by Channing Tatum. Seems very like Jack Dorsey, Twitter influenced vibes.
She seems infatuated with this guy. They hit it off
and he decides to invite her to his private island
for a fun, romantic getaway. And that's where most of

(18:46):
this movie takes place. Channing Tatum's character and a group
of his male friends, played by quite an incredible list
of actors from various different generations Christian Slater, Simon Rex,
Haley Joel Osment. They spend the weekend partying with a
bunch of women, including Adria Arjona and Alia Shawkat. Pretty soon,
it becomes apparent that things on this island are not

(19:07):
quite what they seem, and the movie morphs into more
of a thriller as these women, led by Ackie, try
to figure out what's really going on. I want to
have a brief chat with you guys before we get
into spoiler territory, because I think it is a hard
movie to discuss without going into detail, but let's do
some top line stuff before we get there. Overall, I

(19:28):
thought this movie is a perfect case study in style
over any kind of real significant substance. I think the
production design, the casting, the editing style, the needle drops
the way that Kravitz is like moving through the movie
as a director is all extremely well done. It's technically
very proficient. It's everything you'd want from a film that

(19:48):
clearly thinks of itself as the love child of, like,
Promising Young Woman and Get Out, but I think because
it feels similar to those movies, the fact that thematically
it is so unlike them in the sense that I
think it's almost kind of thematically empty kind of is
an extra knock against the film. I think the Get
Out references in particular are so obvious. There's this repeated

(20:11):
use of cameras and taking photos, and the way that's
used to jolt people out of their reveries, that it's
like a one for one lift from Get Out just
reminds you of what a very good version of this
film could be. And sadly, I didn't really have a
great time in this movie and walked away feeling ultimately
kind of frustrated because of all the money and people

(20:31):
and the premise that was on screen, and it just
felt like it didn't really deliver. But I'm very interested
to hear what you guys think. Oh, is this underselling it?

S2 (20:39):
He literally told me he nearly walked out of the cinema.

S1 (20:43):
Well, I have my views. And then I have my
attempt to distill them into some kind of criticism.

S5 (20:48):
Just be your true self.

S1 (20:48):
Useful for people. Um, well, I will be more honest
about why I really didn't like the movie in the
spoiler section, because I think so much of it has
to do with the ideas of the movie and what
it's saying, not with like how the movie looks and
the performances and things like that. Meg, presumably you didn't
walk out of the theater.

S5 (21:06):
I did not walk out of the cinema.

S2 (21:07):
Um, but I look, I see your points and I
agree with most of them. Um, for me, I think
those stylistic elements held enough weight for it to be
an entertaining film. I mean, as a directorial debut, that's
actually really great from Zoe Kravitz. Like the actual sense
of the style, the aesthetic, the sound design, there's this

(21:28):
really like recurring theme of the champagne fizzing. Those those
details are done really well. Um, the casting as well.
I mean, like Channing Tatum playing against type and using
his like, weaponizing his good guy charm is actually really great.
I mean, do I buy him as a tech titan?
Not really. He's like far too jacked and good looking
for that. Um, but the cast itself is so good. Like,

(21:51):
Naomi Ackie does such a good job. Adria Arjona from
hitman fame. Like she's killing it. The. There's such good
parts of it, I also agree. It doesn't really add
up to a whole. That's completely satisfying. I think the
movie thinks it's a bit more thrilling than it is,
just because it's signposts so many things so early on

(22:11):
that like, you kind of spend the first hour or
so just like essentially guessing what's going to happen. And
you probably can. Yeah. Which is pretty disappointing. And then
I agree that there's kind of like the ideas that
wrestles with are so good and so rich. I mean,
the idea of this island being trapped there is a
thrilling one in itself. But then when you add the
kind of Jeffrey Epstein overtones, that's a really rich area

(22:33):
to mine. I don't think it quite gets there because
the characters involved are super underbaked. Like, I don't really
understand a lot of the deeper context or characterization between
these people, so it's hard to respect the ideas that
they're conveying. But I mean, did I have a good
time in the cinema? Yeah. Like, I mean, what are
the standards for judging this film by a social commentary
or as a good time in the cinema?

S1 (22:53):
I think the difference between you and I in this
movie is less about our interpretation of the film, and
more just like our patience and tolerance threshold.

S5 (23:00):
Sure. I mean.

S2 (23:00):
I totally agree on the get out comp. Like it's
really it's so overwhelming how much it wants to be.
Get out. Yeah. Um, but even like, you see these
constant look overs to the staff who work on the island,
it's like there's a reason the staff were like that
on Get Out and there's not much here. Yeah, like
it's quite distracting. Yeah.

S1 (23:19):
And there's another movie. I think that this movie is, uh,
in the same sandbox in and in fact, is so
eerily similar to I kind of I can kind of
just don't understand why it exists, but we'll get to
that in a second. Thomas, no idea what you think
about this. I haven't spoken to you since you saw it.
What did you what did you make of blink twice?

S3 (23:34):
Uh, well, I guess firstly, the standard as agreed last
week is Ticket to Paradise. So that is the film.

S1 (23:39):
That also island themed adventures.

S3 (23:42):
Yeah, absolutely. Less of a me too thriller. Um, yeah. Yeah.
I was unimpressed by this movie. Um, and I even think, like,
you know what you just said, Osmond. And what's some
of the reviews are saying, like, you know, praising Zoe
Kravitz style. She's obviously a debut director, and admittedly, it
does look good, but I'm like, man, I reckon I
could make a movie that looks pretty fucking good too.

(24:03):
Like if given the tools and stuff, like it.

S1 (24:05):
Was the money.

S3 (24:06):
Yeah. Money. Like, okay, yes, she's got a good eye,
but like, so do lots of people. And it looked good.
There was a great location. The cast are all like
talented and attractive. I just don't know if you're going
to attempt a movie that's trying to say a lot
of things and like tackle some pretty tricky areas. I
don't know if it's enough. So that was like, you know,

(24:26):
kind of annoyed me if anything, because I was like, oh,
it does look good. But like, so what? Ultimately it
not only like the get out thing, but, you know,
we are in this era of the MeToo thriller we've
had like Don't Worry Darling, which I also thought was probably,
you know, on the mood board for her.

S1 (24:42):
And that's the movie I was talking about that I
think this movie is so similar to. Yeah, yeah.

S3 (24:46):
And it's just it's just like, I think the movie
takes you into this, like environment where it's so obvious
that something creepy is happening. And because I think I
was aware of all these films that have come before
in such recent history, I was like, surely we're not
going to end up in the same place that we
have ended up previously. And, you know, lo and behold,
we kind of do. And then in addition to all that,

(25:08):
I thought Channing was really good. But I do think,
you know, there was a slight element of like, my
boyfriend is so hot. I can't wait to film him
for ages. Um, yeah, but maybe that was just my
own take. But yeah, I don't know. Ultimately I had
such a and we haven't mentioned this one either. Like,
I had such a Saltburn experience again where I was.

S1 (25:26):
Like, that was the other one I've got in my notes, man.
That's exactly it. I was like.

S3 (25:30):
You know, all the like, it's like the intelligent movie
for dumb people. But like, you know, everyone's saying Saltburn
is so great, man. It's crazy. It's such an incredible twist.
And it says so many like, amazing things that makes
you think. And then you get out of it and
you're like, it doesn't make me think about anything. You've
just been fooled by the gimmicks.

S2 (25:47):
I would also say there's like, it's not just Saltburn,
there's like Knives Out one with Edward Norton as a
tech titan going into an island. It's like the menu.
There's all these very recent films of like, eat the
rich genre that just feels so recent and close to
this that this almost feels derivative, even though it is
original filmmaking. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, we say

(26:07):
all the time we want movies like this that take
a real swing and have great premises and original stories,
but like, it just doesn't feel as original as it should.

S5 (26:14):
Yeah, and.

S1 (26:14):
I think you made this point earlier, Meg. It's like
for a movie that it considers itself a twisty thriller,
there's barely any twists. It's pretty clear something's going on
and you kind of figure it out. Maybe you don't
know the exact specific nature of it, and then the
reveal happens. Like, okay, that was obviously signposted. And then
the movie progresses and progresses in that same sort of way.

(26:35):
And I think Saltburn is the other exact comp where
it's shiny. There's some good performances. There's some like memorable moments.
There's some very iconic needle drops that people will like,
really enjoy. But again, like, you know, with Saltburn did
this to oh, here's the twist. It's like we knew that.
You kind of seem to think that we're way dumber
than this movie you've constructed is it's.

S2 (26:55):
And it's quite depressing, like seeing a lot of the
response to the film, especially just on like, Twitter or
Reddit or whatever. It's like the bar is so low.

S1 (27:05):
I know I don't read the Letterboxd reviews, I think. Like,
I don't know what a letterbox has been taken over
by like 15 year olds, but just people being like, whoa,
what a movie. And, you know, maybe one nice thing
to say about this is that if there are like
younger people who appreciate the style and the aesthetic of
the film more than the lack of the themes that

(27:26):
seem to be bothering people like us and some of
the underwriting of it. That's cool. Like, good on them
for enjoying a movie, and maybe they'll discover some of
these other films that that are the precursors to this.
But saying that, like, people might watch a movie and
then hopefully discover better movies is not much of a compliment.

S3 (27:42):
And I also reckon, like, worth adding to that list.
You mentioned the menu, Meg, which I also think is
this is really derivative, like, you know, um, they basically
go to that like really Crazy Island and what's his name, the, uh,
Ralph Fiennes plays, you know, the crazy rich, you know,
he's a chef or whatever. But that is so similar.
And also Triangle of Sadness, which I think does a
much better job of like skewering this.

S2 (28:03):
Also an island. We got to get off islands, I think.

S5 (28:05):
I know it's.

S3 (28:05):
Like everyone's like rich people on an island. Let's absolutely
milk it until it's boring. And here it is. We arrived.

S1 (28:11):
Uh, should we go into spoiler territory? I think we
have to. So if you are going to watch the
movie and you haven't seen it, skip the next 5
to 7 minutes of this podcast. So basically, the reveal
is that the women on this island who think they're
having a really great time are, in fact, being like,
drugged and sexually assaulted quite, like intensely, repeatedly, every single

(28:35):
night by the men. They take this perfume or they
spray this perfume called Desdemona, and it makes them forget
the trauma that they've had. And this has been going
on potentially for years. We find out that Naomi Ackie's
character has actually been on this island before. It's not
her first time, and she discovers, through the help of

(28:55):
the staff who work there, that there is this snake venom,
that if you drink or if you put in tequila shots,
you will overpower the perfume. So this is. It's like
a weird, like, magical thing going on.

S5 (29:09):
Plot mechanics. Man. Oh my God.

S1 (29:11):
Two competing like magical elixirs is very, very odd. And
so she she does realize. And she has these horrific
flashbacks to the violence being done on her. And then,
you know, the movie's most obvious theme or like, kind
of idea it's got is that women should band together
and work together to kill terrible men, which is what happens.

(29:35):
And then the bit that I guess, like was the
most surprising twist is the very, very, very end of
the movie where we're back in the room where the
gala was originally held and you think, oh wow, like
Channing Tatum's character survived, what's going on here? And then
the reveal is that it's Naomi Ackie's character, Frida, who
is the CEO of this tech company. And Channing Tatum

(29:56):
is kind of her lobotomized boyfriend husband. and the idea
there being kill all the bad men, but the ringleader
just marry him and keep him as your boy toy.
Because that is a cool thing to do. I think,
like when all of that was going on, this is
where my levels of frustration started to grow. Because what

(30:17):
is the idea in the movie? Drugging and assaulting women
is bad. Sure. Obviously no disagreement from anyone. They're not
a particularly, like, compelling or interesting idea for a film,
I would say, and especially not one that doesn't go
anywhere beyond that. Now that we're in that sort of
spoiler space, what did you guys think of all the

(30:38):
reveals and do you think, am I missing something? Is
there a point being made about the nature of the patriarchy,
the way it should be dealt with that does exist
beyond what's on the surface?

S5 (30:49):
I think the.

S2 (30:50):
Film would like to think it has a big theme
about cancel culture, because Channing Tatum's character had been found
out for doing something before, though we don't really know
what was revealed previously, and the film starts with him
having the kind of, you know, Instagram apology. He's having
an interview about it, and I suppose it's playing with

(31:10):
ideas of do these men change? What will a culture
forgive those kind of things? But without that deeper context
of what he did or even like, I mean, he
was absolved in this interview with this person. He was
like being exalted for what a new man he is.
But then by the end of the film, Channing Tatum's
doing this really cringeworthy speech about how he can just

(31:32):
say sorry a million times and it's just not worth it.
It's like, what? Weren't you? Didn't this work? I don't
understand what's going on. I mean, even that dialogue was
so cringeworthy. There's this terrible speech about there's this younger
guy on the island who supposedly did nothing to help them,
even though he has a black eye. So I have
to assume he stepped in at one point, right?

S1 (31:51):
It actually gets kind of confusing as to who on
the island is, at which stage of which poison, like
who's been perfumed and who's been snake venom.

S2 (31:59):
Yeah, like.

S1 (32:00):
I think maybe that guy wasn't aware of what was
going on.

S5 (32:02):
No, I think he was.

S2 (32:04):
But then on that final night.

S5 (32:06):
I thought he was.

S3 (32:06):
Being assaulted too. Hence.

S1 (32:07):
Yeah, that was my.

S5 (32:09):
Yeah.

S2 (32:09):
I'm glad.

S5 (32:10):
That's possible. I don't know. Sure. Yeah.

S1 (32:12):
I'm not sure they know. I think they lost track.

S5 (32:14):
Of what was going on.

S2 (32:15):
I feel like with a lot of these MeToo movies,
there's these very big themes that creators are taking on
in time with the culture. But by the time the
films come out or even they're filming, discourse has moved
and then plots get changed and it just feels stale
in this weird way, or it feels like it's pandering
to a moment that's passed. I think there's a lot

(32:37):
of that in this movie, and it's something that happened
with promising young women as well. I mean, if that
had that film had come out even a year prior,
it would have had a massive impact. I mean, another
film with a confusing final act twist. Um, but yeah,
it's hard to glean an overall message from this other
than women should stick Together. Um, but yeah, it's not

(32:58):
that inspiring.

S1 (32:59):
You were talking about the Spice Girls, you know, a
while ago, but that's, you know.

S5 (33:01):
Yeah, but that.

S2 (33:02):
Was the 90s.

S5 (33:02):
So. Yeah. Yeah.

S1 (33:04):
Um, how about you, Thomas?

S3 (33:05):
Yeah, I think kind of like we said before, it
just felt like the whole time you were being prepared
for a big twist. And then it went. And like,
even in my head, I think I was like, please
don't be the lowest common denominator twist that we've seen
in this recent rash of films exactly like this. And
then it was and that made it even like that,

(33:25):
made it so much more disappointing. Like I just yeah,
I kind of in that, you know. Yeah. The really
obvious message is that these things are awful and men
can be really, really bad. But like, I just don't
know what else you're supposed to take away from the
the movie. Like the reveal that all of these men
who are all quite rich and powerful are doing, like,
really heinous things at night, but it just didn't. There

(33:46):
was no like, thesis beyond that for the movie. And
so when that's all you get, um, it's hard to
think that this was a smart idea, and I actually
kind of do think the cancel culture thing was perhaps
the most interesting part of it. Like, even though that
speech was a bit cringeworthy, the whole idea of like,
you know, a powerful man doing something bad. We don't
know what it was. But then, you know, getting public

(34:08):
forgiveness and but really, you can't forgive. You can only forget,
like there was, there was like a kernel of something
interesting there, but instead they ended up just going for like,
let's have heaps of, like, crazy drums and people running
around and there'll be a big reveal and, you know,
like it's just abandoned what may have been interesting and
instead went back to, I guess, what is kind of
become a, you know, paint by numbers for this genre
that we're living in, which is that, you know, the

(34:28):
big reveal is all these men are awful. And, you know, like,
women should be terrified, which. Yeah, again, interesting idea, but
executed in a way that makes it just feel a
bit like, oh God, here we go again.

S2 (34:40):
It's the same way that I mean, that's how I
felt about Don't Worry Darling as well. And spoilers, I guess. But,
you know, if that film had gone harder on why
the men are doing that or the culture that led
up to it. Those kind of like Andrew Tate figures.
That would have been a more interesting movie, but it
just feels like they're kind of pulling their punches in
that space and just opting for these like very set
set and forget thrills. It's like, I think we should

(35:02):
expect more from films like this at this stage.

S3 (35:04):
And that's why I don't know if either of you,
either of you guys seen the Royal Hotel? The Julia
Garner film filmed in Australia?

S1 (35:09):
I have, yeah, like.

S3 (35:10):
That to me is so basically like, you know, it's
these two young like backpackers, I think. What are they,
American or English? And they go to work in like
an outback pub, kind of like, um, you know, in
the middle of nowhere. Very rare for anyone to rock up.
That's not, you know, like a working part of the community.
And it kind of instead of there's no like kind

(35:30):
of fantastical elements of snake venom and poisons and perfumes
and stuff, but it's just the whole thing, like ratchets
up this tension. You know, lots of men like hot
blooded men who were, like, drinking and have no interaction
with women and don't know how to act. And but
like the way it kind of treats, you know, the
men who appear to be like, kind of nice guys
and then their roles shift, and it's all grounded in

(35:51):
such a reality that makes it way more terrifying, because
it's like men that you know and see at pubs
and stuff, and I feel like that tackled the exact
same areas in a way that was so much more affecting.
And at the end there's no real big twist or anything.
It's just a survival story, really. But at the end
you walk away, I guess, like, well, I walked away
thinking so much more about, like, you know, in air

(36:13):
quotes like toxic masculinity and all of that stuff because
it was handled in a way that was so much
real and raw as opposed to like big flip reveal
and like, oh, this is what's happening at night. And
these people are all complete, like double characters and stuff.

S1 (36:24):
Mm. Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that. So that was
directed by Kitty green, who's an Australian director. And her
movie before that was The Assistant, which came out in 2019,
which I think is maybe my favorite of the films
in what we could call the post-metoo genre. I mean,
this one in particular, it's set in a production office
about a young assistant, and it is very much like
a take on the Weinstein sort of dynamic. It's a

(36:47):
really extraordinary film that is worth watching. And I guess
like the timing has to do with this as well.
I mean, I think the assistant still holds up right now,
but Kravitz started writing blink Twice under the working title
of Pussy Island back in 2017. So we're right. Like,
post the Trump election in the middle of the Weinstein stuff.
The Epstein stuff is happening. And perhaps if the movie

(37:09):
had come out in 2017, we might have a different view.
But also the movie didn't come out in 2017. The
movie was in development for many, many, many years. So
it's not really an excuse to not be good. But
there are there are like, I think there are a
few films in this space that tackle these things well.
And you mentioned one, Thomas. I mentioned one, there's two
more I wanted to to, to shout out women talking,

(37:30):
which came out, I think, either last year or the
year before. Um, very, very interesting. Like kind of basically
interior chamber drama about women experiencing horrific things happening to
them and what that kind of using that as a
frame to discuss power relationships and gender dynamics in society.
And then in terms of both like conversations around assault

(37:51):
and cancel culture, to like Cate Blanchett, like that movie.
Maybe it's hard to compare blink twice to it, because
that is by an experienced director and an experienced actress.
It is so complicated and sharp and nuanced and fascinating
and makes you think days, weeks, months, years after you've
watched the movie. So the good news is that there
are like really interesting films tackling this stuff. Blink twice

(38:15):
is just not in that category.

S5 (38:16):
I think the difference.

S2 (38:17):
With those films are like, Tara is also a film
about cancel culture. Yeah. But it's grounded in character and plot.
And so you sit with this person and their ideas
and their world, and you come to an understanding of it.
And maybe that forms one perspective. Maybe it's challenged to
the next scene. This one is more interested in kind
of the buzzwords. Yeah. And like, I mean, really, what
do we know about Jack's character? He's got some vague

(38:39):
childhood trauma. Like, I'm so sick of that storyline. Yeah.
We should really know more than that. If we're going
to have a proper critique of these men and why
they do that. I think there was like another kernel
of something more interesting with the Geena Davis character, where
she has this snake venom potion and remembers what's going
on but doesn't want to, and there's this altercation where

(39:01):
she's like, I didn't want to remember. And then it's
a fight between her and the other woman. And like,
that's interesting casting because Geena Davis is obviously like Thelma
and Louise icon like feminist film women sticking together. There's
a lot of loaded casting in that. But when it's
reduced to just one scene and like one throwaway thing,
when it could have been this interesting dialogue about a

(39:21):
genuine rift that happened between women of different generations during MeToo,
where it's like all the women saying it's easier to
just like, move on from these things. Why do you
have to dig it all up? And younger women wanting
to remember and fight for it and like, avenge what
has happened? Like, that's an interesting idea too. But it
just played for one scene, like.

S1 (39:38):
Yeah, it just seems like we need something there to
show that women can also be complicit in these things. Yeah,
I think you're right, I think. And I wonder whether
some there is more to this movie that that we
just don't get to see. And it's changed its name.
It's been in quite a long production cycle. There's been
all sorts of like stories about complications around release. Geena
Davis is a very well known, very successful, very talented actress.

(40:00):
The idea of her signing on for a movie where
she essentially has one very brief scene where she says
stuff before being killed seems unlikely to me. I wonder
whether there are maybe some bits and pieces to this
film that are on the cutting room floor that might
have made it make more sense. But that's just entirely speculation.

S3 (40:18):
Yeah, I get the feeling there was some studio fingerprints
on this. You've got, like, you know, a first time director,
even though she's a famous, like, I wonder what the
power dynamic there was like, if, you know, the studio
is saying, like, we need to change this, we need
to change that. She probably feels like she didn't have
much of a choice, and that was definitely something. I
walked away thinking, like, I wonder if there is a

(40:39):
director's cut version of this that looks slightly different. Um,
but yeah, like there were some parts I enjoyed. It's
always good to see someone vaping on screen. Um, and
Channing was hitting that jewel pretty hard. And also, like
I must say, even though I knew, like, where it
was going and stuff, I did have the conversation with
my wife. I watched it and I was like, I
wonder how long obviously before I knew the really horrific stuff.

(40:59):
And I was like, how long could I really, like,
enjoy this island? Like, because the day times looked pretty sick.
Like they were by the pool. There's good music on.
Everyone's doing like MDMA and stuff. Obviously it all takes
a horrific turn, but how long could you go before
you're like, am I partying too many days in a
row now?

S1 (41:15):
I know, I mean, like, how much can you just
be in a pool? Like, you know that it's just
there's a time limit to that. The last thing I
want to say, and I don't want to do a
whole big, boring, nepo baby thing, but I think Zoe
Kravitz is an accomplished actress. But, you know, there's obviously
helping hands in this industry the way that she's been
able to be an accomplished actress, the way that she's
been able to make a movie that costs $20 million,

(41:36):
I think stems from her background in the lucky experiences
she's had in life, and also it gives her a
very particular sense of what issues are when it comes
to women. I think that's why we sort of end
on that girlboss note of like, I'm in charge now
sort of thing, and that's not her fault. On a
personal level, but on a structural level, the budget for

(41:58):
the assistant, which, like I said, I think is one
of the best movies to tackle this stuff was a
$1.7 million, right? There's Julia Garner, Matthew Macfadyen. It has
a really good cast, and it's a really interesting give.
People like Kitty green, give them 20 lots of $1
million to make movies like this. And I think that's
also why I started to get so frustrated. It's like

(42:19):
there are people who think they've got interesting things to
say who maybe don't, but they are afforded enormous amounts
of opportunities to do so. And then there are other
really amazing directors and writers who are trying their best
and making amazing stuff that barely anyone has ever heard of.
And that's not Zoe Kravitz fault or Channing Tatum fault.
That's just the way that Hollywood and the world work,
but I thought it was worth pointing out.

S3 (42:39):
It's like the drop versus Mamma mia!

S5 (42:42):
We have to cut that bit. We're not cutting that bit.

S10 (42:54):
Meg, are.

S1 (42:55):
You up to season three of industry yet?

S2 (42:58):
Let me tell you, I am not. But I can't
wait to hear your takes.

S1 (43:02):
I appreciate that you have indulged us the last few
weeks as we have done this.

S2 (43:06):
I love it. It would be a good introduction when
I finally get there.

S1 (43:08):
I like had an out of body experience when I
read the episode description on binge for this. It was
something like Harper, Yasmin and Robert travel to Switzerland to
take part in a high stakes climate economic summit. And like,
I was like, Holy shit, these guys are doing the

(43:30):
thing that succession did so well. And I think probably
at this point, the succession comparisons are getting a little
bit tired, but it's clear the two guys, Mickey and Conrad,
who wrote this show, did their homework. They watched succession.
They looked at what made that show work and deconstructed
it and have taken this in a similar direction, which
is like, we've got these characters and I think unlike succession,

(43:51):
we've got sort of more fun, more silly, more sometimes
a little bit cartoonish skins, kinds of characters. What if
we just take them, put them in an entirely different environment,
make them interact with the people they don't normally interact with,
throw wacky things in their direction, and have a couple
of obligatory shots of PJs. Isn't that going to be

(44:12):
a sick episode? And it was, wasn't it, Thomas?

S5 (44:15):
It really.

S3 (44:15):
Was. I was kind of like, you know, quietly disappointed
not to see Alexander Skarsgard, like, descending.

S1 (44:21):
There was like another Norwegian sort of guy who came in.

S3 (44:24):
There was a there was a Nordic energy, not quite.

S5 (44:26):
As like, are there any like.

S2 (44:27):
Big name cameos in the show yet? If they're really
channeling succession?

S1 (44:30):
I think that's one thing we are kind of missing.

S3 (44:33):
Yeah, yeah. No, they don't really do that. Um, but, yeah,
it was an incredible episode. Uh, you know, I saw
somewhere that one of the critics wrote that, you know,
this is a show that is less interested in financial
deals and is now just about each character's pathologies. And
that is so true, which is also something you could
apply to succession in the later seasons. But just this
is such a great character study now of these, you know,

(44:55):
kind of people who are circling each other and no
one is able to get out of their own way
and their own neuroses, but they're also desperate to take
down the people who they claim to be close to.
And in the next scene, they will be supporting those people. Like,
it's just such a great kind of character analysis of people. Um,
obviously amazing to be back on a private jet. Um,
I actually do think it's been, I guess in terms

(45:16):
of big name cameos, Kit Harington being added to this
season as Jon Snow, you know, in the world of
Jon Snow.

S5 (45:23):
Whoa.

S1 (45:24):
Whoa, Jon Snow.

S3 (45:26):
It's super out of context. But no, he's actually been
a great addition. Um, you know, just to kind of
like like, like be a cat amongst the pigeons. Um,
but I just thought this episode was amazing. And also
one of the like, this is what's so great about
industry and also succession. But like it is, this was
the funniest episode of industry I reckon I've seen in
a long time because they're going to a climate change,

(45:46):
you know, like I guess conference to try and sell
green energy ideas and you know, there's all these great
like kind of like little just one liners about how
it's an unnaturally warm winter. So there's no snow. And
Eric's really disappointed about that. So good. And you know
another big investor is like, do I care if Venice
is underwater by 2075? It's a shithole in the summer.
Like it's just, you know, like these awful people saying

(46:08):
awful things. And that's what we watch TV for.

S1 (46:10):
And, you know, the other bit and this is like
extremely just like specific to me. So they make a
reference that the meeting they're going to is a cop meeting,
which is the conference of parties to the United Nations
Framework for the Convention on Climate Change, which are those
big meetings where they discuss treaties and whatever. I actually
attended one in a 2019, uh, Copenhagen. And in fact,
it was on that trip that I was in a

(46:32):
bar in Copenhagen. We all sang Wonderwall. Um, so I've
been to these things and, you know, they, they they
left me feeling profoundly cynical about the way that, like
these big international forums that largely like they they make
all these jokes about how, you know, if this is
about diplomats are coming and negotiating deals, but really, that's
all a side show because all the really important stuff

(46:53):
are these business guys doing deals and just how kind
of much of a joke that makes of the climate system,
and that certainly the experience of many people, including me,
who witnessed these things up close. So as well as,
as you said, Thomas, being an incredible deep dive into
the pathology of these sorts of folk, it still manages
to land like quite significant and meaty blows on things

(47:15):
as significant as global capitalism and the climate change framework
we are all relying on. And that's a cool thing
for a show to do. And on top of that,
and yeah, sorry if I say this too much, but
it's the last time I'm going to get a chance
to say on this podcast. It is a fun hang show. Like,
I love hanging out with these guys. It is just
so interesting when you know there's an amazing sauna scene

(47:36):
with your guy Joel Kim Booster. You know, I don't
know if that counts as like a famous cameo, but
you know him. You like him. He's in a sauna.
He's completely nude. He is at a moment stroking himself
in a, in a, in a kind of example of
trying to get dominance on this other guy. It is
so funny. It is. It is so cool. The show
just keeps throwing us random stuff like that. Um, yeah.

(47:59):
Please everyone. My last, my last wish on the drop
is to get people into this show, because if you
all watch it, we will hopefully get way more stuff
like it.

S3 (48:08):
Yeah. And I think it does a really like it
does something really good in TV shows that especially once
you are three seasons in one, they start to like
mix up the dynamics and they pair up people that
haven't previously been together. And you like see that it works.
So I love that we're getting like both Eric and
Robert in this episode. Like, ah, a kind of pair,
you know? Unfortunately, because of a mix up at the
front desk of their very fancy hotel, they have to

(48:30):
share a bed and like, they become a funny, odd couple.
And then you've got this weird dynamic between Eric and Yasmin,
which is like, is there something sexual going on or
what's happening there? And like, I guess the show has
always hinged on the Eric and Harper dynamic. You know,
it's such a loaded, complex relationship where he was the
mentor and she was the mentee. And then it's kind
of continued to change. And they haven't even been in
a scene together this season. And then we finally get

(48:52):
at the end of this episode, the most, like, Shakespearean
kind of comeuppance from Harper, where she, you know, she's
kind of walking out of the conference as the head
of this new fund, and they engage Pierpoint to look
after them. And she, like, demands that he look her
in the eye after he's just had a bender with
a prostitute. Like, it was just incredible. Like, you know,
it does all these things so well and it has

(49:14):
figured out its characters so well. It knows exactly when to, like,
push them or pull them back or who to pair
them with. It really is some of the best TV
and I'm so glad that I pushed you onto it. Osmond.

S1 (49:25):
Uh, also, um, that that scene, like, you know, Harper
getting her revenge on the actress who plays her. Mihaela
posted a screenshot, I think, before the episode came out
of just like her smile looking at Eric and the
music was DMX's X gon give it to you. And
I'm like, that's fun, that's cool. I like when the
worlds collide. Um, all right, time to wrap up with

(49:47):
our Impress Your Friends segment where we share something we've watched,
listen to, read, or consumed in the world of culture. Meg,
we have talked for a long time and haven't heard
your voice.

S5 (49:58):
What what.

S1 (50:00):
What do you want to what do you want to
recommend for us this.

S5 (50:02):
Week?

S2 (50:02):
Uh, my Impress Your Friends may not impress your friends
because it's incredibly dorky. Um, but it's a new ABC show,
which is Guy Montgomery's guy spelling bee, which is literally
just a spelling bee on television. Um, guy Montgomery is
a New Zealand comedian. He's brought the show over from

(50:23):
New Zealand. It previously had a season that ran in
New Zealand last year before that. He actually ran it.
I remember a couple of years back he ran it
at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival. So basically it involves
a few local comedians just getting up and acting as
the spelling bee participants. It's way more entertaining than it sounds.
They do different challenges. They spell people's name from the audience,

(50:44):
which isn't as fraught as it sounds. Um, it's a
really good example of a show that's like this very
simple concept. You just get talented people in the room
and they make something really special out of it. He's
also joined by Aaron Chen, who is an Australian comedian,
that a lot of people in the industry have been like,
that guy needs to have a TV show. Why doesn't

(51:04):
Chen have an ABC show? This is kind of it. Um, yeah.
I think it's just a really great way. I mean,
it's one of those perfect shows. If you're a fan
of something like Taskmaster, which is like this short, silly,
fun show you can digest in a small amount of
time As a new parent. That's a really important facet
of my TV watching. At this point, I only really
have capacity for things 20 minutes at a time. But

(51:27):
it's also, I mean, in the interest of getting people
to make shows like this, this is totally one to support.
People need to be streaming shows like this. So, you know,
Australian comedians can also get things like this off the
ground without having runs on the board in New Zealand.
And it does feature a whole lot of up and
coming Australian comedians as well. As you know, of course,
Tom Gleeson is on the first episode, it's ABC and

(51:49):
he has to be. But you know, the second episode
also has like Urvi Majumdar, who is someone I hadn't
heard of, but she apparently has like a fresh blood
pilot that like, you know, doesn't get the airtime. It should.
And it's nice to see her up on screen getting
getting the word out.

S1 (52:03):
Yeah, really great to see the ABC taking a risk,
which is something we've often, you know, chided them for.
I've not seen the show, but I think Guy Montgomery
and Aaron Tran are very, very, very funny. So thank
you for that.

S2 (52:13):
Aaron in particular is very good. He's just doing like
the full off the beach stick and a lot of
prop comedy, which also sounds bad, but just trust me,
it's good.

S1 (52:22):
I do trust you. I do trust you. Thomas. What
have you got? Uh, look.

S3 (52:25):
I thought I would theme this one, and I am
recommending that you impress your friends by getting them to
revisit Oasis Supersonic, the 2016 documentary produced by Asif Kapadia.
Obviously the director of Amy. It's on Amazon Prime, and
if you haven't actually seen it, it is an incredible documentary.
It kind of revisits the band at the height of

(52:45):
their 90s fame. It got, you know, like first person
interviews with Noel and Liam, who were not on speaking
terms at the time it was made, as well as
like all the people in their life. Um, but look,
obviously we are in this, you know, Oasis renaissance right now.
Everyone's going to be talking about them for a long time.
Probably bored of it by the time the tour rolls around.
But if you were keen to kind of be like, okay,
I may as well can't fight this Oasis return, so

(53:06):
let me get back in the zone. It is actually
a really well made documentary, and the music is great,
and it will confirm whether or not you are excited
about the Oasis return or if you are just going
to tune out.

S1 (53:16):
Well timed, well timed recommendation. Um, mine is a film
called Strange Darlings. It's out right now is a really
interestingly constructed film. It's kind of, I think, a little
bit of a nod to to Tarantino, not really in
sort of the themes necessarily, or the, the hyper violence,
but in terms of these kind of like six seemingly

(53:38):
unlinked chapters that are told that all end up kind
of collapsing in on themselves. It's this really electric, sharp, thrilling,
serial killer movie. I really don't want to say too
much about the plot, because I think the less you
know going into this one, the better. One of the
really interesting things about this movie, it's shot on 35mm
film by Giovanni Ribisi, the very prolific actor who's making

(53:59):
his debut as a cinematographer and, like most of the
media I've seen, is focused on that because, like a
lot of the people involved in the production are not
super famous. Uh, it's just really good. And if you
want to see a good movie that is out that
is interesting will make you think and looks different to
a lot of the other stuff out there. Strange darlings.
Give it a go. All right, so just before we

(54:20):
wrap up, it is my last episode on the drop.
I did some thank yous last week, but just to reiterate,
you know, we can't make this show without our wonderful
producers Kai Cormack, David, and of course, the wonderful Ruby Schwartz,
who was our lead producer during the succession episodes, which
I think are a big part of the reason so

(54:40):
many of you listening have jumped on board, and it
was really fun to do that. One of the most
fun things I think I've managed to do in my
time in Australian media. And of course, it started with
the three of us, Meg, Thomas and myself. Meg, you
went to have a family, which is very exciting.

S5 (54:55):
And then very rude of me.

S1 (54:57):
Mel jumped on board and it's very sad that Mel's
been unwell, but she's on the mend. I know I
keep saying that, but she's definitely on the mend.

S5 (55:02):
Definitely.

S2 (55:03):
Sounds like you have her locked on an island somewhere that.

S1 (55:09):
Um. I don't have her locked in an island somewhere. Um,
but yeah, huge, huge, huge thanks to to you guys
and to Mel for making this the funnest part of
my job every week.

S3 (55:19):
I'm obviously very sad you're leaving, and it's been the
highlight of all of our weeks, I would say. And
you know, my first regular podcast ever and it's been
such a pleasure and honor to do it alongside you, Osman.
And I know I speak for Mel as well, who
is very sad that she can't be here today. Um,
that it's been such a great experience and one of
the one of the true work highlights in a long career.

(55:41):
So we will miss you. And I don't doubt that
the listeners will miss you and you're one of a kind.
So I was thinking about whether or not there's an
appropriate Oasis song, whether it's we can choose between Stop
Crying Your Heart Out or Don't Look Back in Anger.
But I think that Live Forever is perhaps the most applicable.

UU (55:57):
Wasting things. I'll never see you. I'm gonna live forever. I'm.
Gonna live for Don't fall for it.

S1 (56:16):
Ah, that's really nice. And you mentioned our listeners and
I should say that since we announced the news last week, the, uh,
amount of listeners who have contacted me on all sorts
of platforms, people have left multiple five star reviews saying
how sad they are. I mean, you could have done
that while I was around, you know? You know, the
fact that our review rating dropped to 4.3 is the
reason why I'm leaving, frankly. Um, but no, but thanks

(56:37):
to this, this has been such a lovely community of people.
And thank you for those words, Thomas. Um, before we
wrap up, make sure to stick around for my conversation
with Charlie Vickers, one of the stars of The Rings
of Power. It was a super interesting chat with him
about taking on the role of one of the most
notorious villains in literary and cinematic history, and the process
of working on one of the most expensive TV shows

(56:59):
ever made. Thomas, Mel. Thomas, Meg. Wow.

S5 (57:03):
I was going to. We can keep fitting. Way to end.
We can keep.

S1 (57:07):
That one.

S5 (57:07):
In.

S2 (57:09):
It happens a lot. Listeners.

S1 (57:10):
Thanks heaps guys.

S5 (57:11):
Thanks. Thank you.

S1 (57:20):
Charlie Vickers, thank you so much for joining the show.

S11 (57:22):
Thank you Osman, thanks for having me.

S1 (57:24):
In The Rings of Power, you play one of the
most notorious, well known literary villains of all time. I've
read that you actually didn't know that you were playing
Sauron until you were well into production on the first season.
Is that the case?

S11 (57:37):
Yeah, I think I'd been in New Zealand for over
six months and we'd had a hiatus because of Covid.
And then once the hiatus finished, we were about to
start filming episode three, and the showrunners called me into
their office and said, yeah, this character Halbrand, that you've
been playing, he's actually Sauron.

S1 (57:58):
Of all the reveals.

S5 (57:59):
To have. Exactly.

S11 (58:00):
And I was just like, what? I was a bit suspicious. Yeah.
I had an inkling that maybe there was more to
Halbrand than met the eye.

S1 (58:08):
I know that some of your fellow cast members weren't
even sure the nature of the show when they were
auditioning for it. Is that something that's like, relatively common?
Was that your experience on this, or did you have
a bit more Intel as to what this was about?

S11 (58:21):
No, that was that was um, my experience as well.
I think it is quite common, particularly shows with big IP,
that they don't release much information. So the sides, the
scenes that we got, they're all dummy scenes to audition
with and the character names were all altered. So I
had no idea. I actually auditioned for Elrond originally, but

(58:43):
I didn't know it was Elrond. It was only in hindsight. Yeah, right.
So yeah, I think I did maybe seven auditions. Um,
so it was a long process. They really very thorough.

S1 (58:53):
And one of those auditions, I think, involved you performing
Milton's Paradise Lost, which is the quintessential angel falling from heaven. Yeah,
that that that must have been fun. Did that give
you a bit of an inkling as to where the
show and character was going?

S11 (59:07):
That was why I was a bit suspicious when of
the Halbrand character, because on the surface, he's a villager
with this kind of hidden nobility, a past that was
connected to a line of kings. But then I was like,
I just auditioned with Paradise Lost, playing Satan. And then
I did a Richard the Third speech. So I was like,

(59:28):
there must be a dark element to this character.

S1 (59:31):
It's either a succession spin off or.

S11 (59:33):
Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

S1 (59:35):
What kind of relationship, if any, did you have with
the the books, the franchise before getting involved on The
Rings of Power?

S11 (59:43):
I, um, I was a fan of Lord of the rings,
but pretty much through the Peter Jackson films. I mean,
they popularized it for the world, I think, and I
was definitely the target audience. I was I was a
kid or an adolescent when all that came out, and
I was pretty obsessed with those films, but I'd never

(01:00:04):
read anything beyond that. I'd never read The Hobbit, I'd
never read the trilogy or The Silmarillion, and I played
the PlayStation games as well. They were very intense, very difficult.
I remember them being really difficult.

S5 (01:00:18):
I remember the same thing. Yeah.

S11 (01:00:19):
But it wasn't until I was cast that I just thought,
you know, I've got to sit down and read everything. Yeah.
And there's a lot of reading.

S1 (01:00:25):
I feel like the world is split into normal people
and like Silmarillion guys, like people that read the appendices
and know all that sort of stuff. Once you did
get into that, you're like, okay, this is helpful for
my character. And or are you just, like, overwhelmed by
the sheer amount of lore and history?

S11 (01:00:40):
I think that's I think that's it's a bit of both.
You will never have read everything that Tolkien has written,
because there is so much lore and mythology around the
whole thing. But I definitely became one of those Silmarillion guys.
And it's it's I can see why people get so
obsessed with that, because it's such a vast and detailed

(01:01:02):
world that he created and some of the stories like. Yeah,
there are parts of that book that are a bit
of a slog to get through. But there are other
parts which are just incredible, and I found it particularly
useful because it it's Sauron's whole story, and it's different
to the Sauron that has been popularized. He is walking around, talking,

(01:01:23):
interacting with people. And yeah.

S1 (01:01:25):
In the films you mentioned, Sauron is this huge presence.
He's largely a disembodied burning eye. There's a couple of
scenes with him being played. I think Sally Baker, the
New Zealand actor in the Suits of Armor for you,
is it is it like helpful that it's a bit
of a blank slate to play him as quote unquote
human like as a physical person? Or is it a
little bit daunting because, you know, when everyone knows where

(01:01:47):
this is going, you're going to end up being one
of the most famous evil eyes of all time. How
does that impact the way that you approach making the show?

S11 (01:01:53):
I don't see it so much as a daunting thing,
because I think when you join a show like this,
I had to learn to let go of expectation of
people because everyone has their opinion and you take the
ones that you think are really useful to your development
of the character. But I loved the process of developing
him throughout this time period because it's a real opportunity,

(01:02:17):
because he is. Tolkien wrote of him in this time
period that he is a character that wants to heal
and rehabilitate and restore middle earth, and that's kind of
the way I approach the character. I wanted to find
an emotional through line and something that like, I know
he's a villain and that's that is the purpose that

(01:02:39):
he serves in this story. But I never really found
it that helpful for me to look at him from
that point of view as an actor. So I kind
of wanted to find the elements of his character that
I could really connect to. And I that was, I
felt an enormous privilege to have the opportunity to bring

(01:03:00):
this part of him to life, particularly as Tolkien wrote
in such detail and cared about Sauron. It seems, he wrote,
like all these incarnations of this character. I mean, he
was originally a giant house cat called Tisvilde.

S5 (01:03:15):
Seriously?

S11 (01:03:16):
Yeah, that was his first incarnation of Sauron. And then,
you know, stories like Beren and Luthien and you see
the development of the character in Tolkien's mind. And he,
he wrote, um, these, these letters which were being collated,
and they're personal letters. They're professional letters. But in them,
he kind of details his thoughts about his own characters

(01:03:39):
and the purpose they serve in his stories. So I
found that really helpful. So overall, it's been a massive privilege.

S1 (01:03:47):
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, it makes sense because
one thing we everyone knows about this character is he's
a villain. So the fact that, like, you can add
something to that that gives you some. It's so interesting
to me when there's a character who is like an antagonist,
but you follow them, you still want to care about them,
and weirdly, you end up feeling sympathy for them. At
moments like the season premiere, season two premiere is very graphic,
violent scene. That's like a bit of a prologue to it.

(01:04:08):
This guy is like, like I said, one of the
most evil literary characters of all time. But you still
feel pretty bad when those guys are going to town
on it.

S12 (01:04:14):
Oh yeah.

S11 (01:04:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think that is it. And it's
that maybe there will be people that feel sympathetic towards
him as as the show goes on. But I kind
of when I think about it, I think it's more
of a thing of I just hope people enjoy watching
him do his thing. It's kind of like there's an
element of anti-hero about him in that you kind of

(01:04:38):
are taking pleasure as an audience member, watching him manipulate
and and navigate his way through middle earth. And yeah,
that's something that I'm looking forward to seeing when I
watch the rest of the episodes.

S1 (01:04:51):
Can you talk to me a little bit about the
physical demands of this particular role? Like in both seasons,
there seems to be a lot of scenes involving water.
I think you guys were like on a raft for
a very long period of time. And then the character
also goes through a pretty significant physical transformation in season two.
And I heard somewhere that you wore weights to sort
of change the way that you moved. Can you talk
to me about all the kind of the physical stunt

(01:05:13):
side of a role like this? Yeah.

S11 (01:05:15):
For sure. I mean, it is incredibly particularly the first
season was physical because Halbrand was kind of always in
a physical situation, and he was a man of the earth. Right? Um, so, yeah,
I always seemed to be in water on the show.
I'm always and I'm wearing leather trousers when I'm. And
it was the same this season, at the start of
this season. Um, sodden leather trousers at the bottom of

(01:05:37):
a massive water tank. And that's incredibly demanding. I had
to learn to do a bit of free diving and
breath holding and stuff to be able to do that. Yeah,
and horse riding and such. So it is a lot.
We did a lot of stunt work we kind of
did in New Zealand. We were doing like 2 or
3 hours of stunts every morning, just sword fighting. Yeah. Um,
but the second season, it kind of goes from physical

(01:06:00):
challenges to quite linguistically challenging, and there's quite long scenes
that are real meaty actor scenes. And that was an
enormous challenge. And the ankle weights I used as a tool,
something I've had from drama school, but I wore them
for the first two weeks or so of filming, and

(01:06:21):
it helped me because he's a god. It kind of
helped me establish this sense of the literal sense of
weight of the character, and the whole character is geared
towards Celebrimbor. It's he's the greatest of elven smiths. He's
like a celebrity in Middle-Earth. And it's like, who would
he respond to?

S1 (01:06:42):
Yeah, right.

S11 (01:06:43):
Who who's the kind of person that could appear to
him and say, let's make these rings to save all
of middle earth. And for me, it was this annatar
figure that Tolkien writes about. And all Tolkien said about
Annatar was that he has a fair form and that
he has a regality to him. He's regal. And yeah,

(01:07:05):
I just use that and the ankle weights and the
physicality of that, everything's quite still and contained. And yeah,
it's those little tidbits of information that you can get
from the books which inform the character.

S1 (01:07:17):
Yeah, that's really interesting. The show is the most expensive
show ever made. A lot of Australian actors I talk
to know they work on generally small scale productions, and
in some cases they get 1 or 2 takes to
film a scene and it's like, that's the best take.
We're moving on. On a show like this, with the scale,
the production values, the drive, the ambition to make it

(01:07:39):
the biggest. How different is that? Like, do you have
more time to rehearse? Do you have more time opportunities
to get it right? Does it shift the way that
the actual mechanics of making this show work?

S11 (01:07:49):
I think it's twofold. This season, I felt like there
was a bit of time and we were lucky. Charles Edwards,
who plays Kelly Brimble, he and I filmed most of
our scenes chronologically. Oh, cool. And which was which is
really rare. But because of that, it felt like we
had a lot of time.

S1 (01:08:05):
I think for a lot of people, they don't know
that like TV shows, films are not always filmed. Yeah.
The order of the start to the end. So that
is kind of rare. Yeah.

S11 (01:08:12):
Often, like, I'll. You'll get to set. And you're filming
the last season scene of a season first.

S1 (01:08:17):
Right, right, right.

S11 (01:08:18):
You know, but so for us to film it basically
all in order was really special. And it meant that
it felt like we had time and we were basically
on one set. So we did get maybe you never
really do more than like, four takes. Okay. Three. It's
normally probably. Yeah. Two, three four takes.

S1 (01:08:35):
I didn't mean to imply, by the way, that you're
really bad and you need 20 takes. Oh, no.

S11 (01:08:38):
Yeah, I need 35 takes every time. No, but often,
like on slower moving films, you do get the opportunity
to do more takes. That is a thing. And it's
not nothing to do with acting. It's more just if
the time is there, why not use it?

S1 (01:08:52):
Have the options.

S11 (01:08:52):
Yeah, but it is all relative. I mean, the budget
and the scale of this production, I think, you know,
you can. Tolkien is the only way to do it,
is to have resource to do it, because it's such
a massive world and you need totally.

S1 (01:09:08):
You can't phone it in.

S11 (01:09:08):
No, that's the thing you need to. And that's in
all levels. What the the resources of the show have
given us is a level of quality from, like, everyone
has put their heart and soul into it, whether you're actors,
producers or you're in the costume department or set department. Um,

(01:09:30):
there is so much love poured into it. And that's
the thing that I've really taken away from the experience,
because it's I think you can't do Tolkien without that
level of care.

S1 (01:09:40):
Amazing. Yeah. You talked a bit earlier about the weight
of expectation and how you just can't really let that
kind of distract you from just doing your job and
giving the performance your best. But given that the first
season was a critical success, like a ratings success, you've
sort of proven yourselves. Now going into the second season
when you were filming that, did that shift at all
your work where you're like, okay, now we've done it,

(01:10:01):
we know we can do it. I'm like a little
bit nervous to prove that we can do it again.
We can do it better. We can do it as good.

S11 (01:10:07):
I think you have. It wasn't so much because of
the reception that I. That changed my perception. I think
it was more for me developing a level of comfort
as an actor when you walk onto a set with.
When I walked on my first day in New Zealand,
and there's 500 people in the video village and a
huge cranes, and I'd never experienced anything like that. And

(01:10:28):
so and I think it was every like most of
us in the cast had never experienced anything like that.
So there was a level certainly across the cast, this
low level of, um, kind of like, wow, this is big.
And I had to sort of learn to be comfortable
in that environment. And the biggest change with the second

(01:10:50):
season is you take feedback from people that are close
to you and people that, um, you think opinions, people
that have a really good judge of shows or media
or whatever it is. But the second season, it was
mainly just the fact that I was I was used
to going onto sets like that. Yeah. So I had
this level of ease and I was able to have

(01:11:12):
a lot more fun with it because I was comfortable
going to work every day, and I kind of knew
what to expect. Yeah, yeah. And that's something that we
just developed through familiarity and working in the environment over
the first season. So in a way, the second season
is just kind of been like the shackles are off
and I've just had so much fun doing it.

S1 (01:11:33):
That's awesome. That's really cool to hear. Yeah. Uh, one
of the last things I wanted to ask you is
I'd probably applied more to the big reveal of the
first season, but there still twists and turns and lots
of things to come in the second season. These days, fans,
they love to pass every single thing that is said
in an interview, and people sometimes slip up and they
don't know what's been revealed and what hasn't been revealed.
Has that been a stressful part of making this show?

S11 (01:11:54):
Usually, like the first, the first season when I was
doing media and the press tour, I really had to
make sure I didn't give any spoilers away. And that's like.

S12 (01:12:05):
Did you hold it?

S1 (01:12:05):
Did you manage.

S12 (01:12:06):
To? Yeah, I don't.

S11 (01:12:07):
Think I gave. People got quite good stuff. The tour
started off being like, oh, I think Sarah might be
in the show. And then by the end they were like,
You're Sauron, aren't you? So I had to just deny, deny, deny.
I would always say something along the lines of like,
oh yeah, that's interesting. That's a good theory. So, um,
I think some actors just lie about it, and I
guess I was kind of bending the truth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(01:12:28):
But I think other people in the cast were worried
they would be the ones to give it away.

S12 (01:12:31):
Gotcha, gotcha.

S1 (01:12:32):
Not their secret to tell.

S12 (01:12:33):
Yeah, exactly.

S1 (01:12:34):
And just finally, you're from Geelong.

S12 (01:12:36):
Your cats fan. Big time you're feeling good about.

S11 (01:12:39):
I'm a bit apprehensive. I mean, no, we're in okay.
We're in okay form. But Port Adelaide in Adelaide.

S12 (01:12:45):
Yeah.

S11 (01:12:46):
Yeah that's a tough ask for any team. And they've
won five in a row.

S12 (01:12:48):
They're finishing very.

S11 (01:12:49):
Strong. Maybe even more than five in a row.

S12 (01:12:50):
Yeah yeah yeah I'm.

S1 (01:12:51):
A Sydney fan. So we you know we had the
great start then we freaked out. But we're doing well
but excited that we're both. You know.

S12 (01:12:57):
I was I.

S11 (01:12:57):
Hoped we'd be playing you guys. I would have hoped
we finished fourth, but we finished third in the end.
Good luck.

S12 (01:13:02):
Thanks. You too. Thanks. Thanks, Charlie.

S1 (01:13:04):
Thank you so much for coming.

S12 (01:13:04):
On the show. Thanks, Osman.

S11 (01:13:06):
See you for the grand final.

S12 (01:13:07):
See you then.

S1 (01:13:15):
This episode of The Drop was produced by Qiwang. If
you enjoyed listening to today's episode of The Drop, make
sure to follow us on your favorite podcast app. Leave
us a review or better yet, share the episode with
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