December 15, 2025 • 42 mins
Bondi Beach, Sydney — Wayne and Vanessa Miller join Erin Molan to describe the terrifying moments they survived during the Hanukkah attack at Bondi, including the chaos, the separation from their children, and the rescue that saved their 3-year-old’s life. Erin is then joined by Rabbi Levi Wolff (Central Synagogue, Bondi) on the devastation inside the community — and what Australians (Jewish and non-Jewish) must do right now. Finally, national security & cybersecurity analyst Travis Hawley breaks down what the videos show about the gunmen, weapons, and response. This is the most emotional episode Erin has ever done. If you believe Australia can’t look away anymore: share this episode, subscribe, and leave a comment so this reaches the people who need to see it.
Chapters
00:00 Erin’s message from Bondi
07:45 Survivors Wayne & Vanessa Miller — what they saw
25:20 Rabbi Levi Wolff — the community, the grief, the call to action
32:20 Travis Hawley — what the footage suggests & what’s next
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. Welcome
to the Aeron Mullins Show. It is wonderful to have
your company wherever you are around the world. Thank you
so so much for joining us and for tuning in,
whether you're watching on YouTube, on social media or on
the podcast. We're very grateful for your company. We're still
focused very heavily on the shooting that has occurred at
(00:29):
Bondeai Beach in Sydney, Australia, a mass shooting targeting the
Jewish community here. Most of Sydney's Jewish community live in
the eastern suburbs, particularly around the Bondai kind of Bellevue
Hill Dover Heights for close areas. I was on the
balcony with my little girl at home when the shots
started to ring out.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We heard them.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Then I started to see some of the images coming through,
absolutely harrowing. Two cowards on a bridge, shotguns, just destroying
people's life. They didn't look afraid, they were not panicked.
They looked so calm. I thought originally they were policemen,
to be honest, when I started to see these images
(01:08):
come through, because they just looked like they knew what
they were doing and there was no one really around
up until we saw this incredible hero who I'll talk
about in a second. But they just seem to have
so much time to do it. And then we started
to see images of what had occurred.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
You we saw the.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Angle from behind, the men on the bridge, we couldn't
really see down in front. Then we started to see
images from down in front, and bodies strewn out, blood everywhere, prams,
mothers cowering over babies, absolutely sickening and gut wrenching. And
you know, this phrase gets banded about. You know, this
isn't Australia, this isn't who we are. Well, you know what,
(01:51):
maybe it's time we actually started to accept this is
who we are now. And that has been through failure
after failure after failure in so many different ways. This
country has failed failed miserably. The Australian Jewish population, a
group of people who have given so much, who have
come to this country and contributed immensely, who have embraced
(02:14):
our values, our way of life, came with them in
order to protect a group of extremist terrorists who despise
what we value, who despise our way of life, who
wave terrorist flags outside our opera house marching across our bridge.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It's been an utter disgrace.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Over two years to watch this decay, this rot, to
watch our leadership at every single point where they were tested,
fail and fail and fail, rewarding October seven with a
Palestinian state going to Israel after October seven, but not
visiting the sites of the massacre.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Again, the rhetoric, the tone that was used when talking
about Israel.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
They cared more about winning votes in sections of society
they believe they needed to retain power, than they cared
about protecting the people who matter everyday, Australians who cared
deeply about what this country stands for, who embrace our
way of life, and that includes people from other countries absolutely,
(03:23):
who are the fabric of this nation. I speak of
people who come to this country, who are grateful for
an opportunity, who take that with both hands, who absolutely
retain parts of their own culture and religion that are
especial and important to them, but in the ways that matter,
they embrace.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What matters to us.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's been a harrowing couple of days in this community,
a community that has already suffered so much off the
back of the hate that has been allowed to fester
and go unchecked. And we said over and over and
over and over and over again that this is what's
going to happen. If they don't step up, if the
(04:06):
government doesn't step up, if law enforcement, if the silent
majority in this country stay silent, then this is what
will happen.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And we were dismissed, we were laughed at, we were mocked, mocked.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'm not Jewish, but I could see from day dot
what was going on, and I look at how I
was treated because I spoke out for this community.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And that is why we're here.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Because for the people who spoke out, the Jewish people
who are brave enough to speak out, and the non
Jewish people who are brave enough to speak out, we
got annihilated, annihilated, and we still do. This is why
we speak out in what now appears to be a
futile attempt to stop what happened, because we could see
(05:09):
it coming. We could see it coming, hundreds of thousands
marching across a bridge, Taliban flags chanting death to the IDF,
holding up posters of terrorists who slaughtered babies. Yet it
(05:29):
fell on deaf ears, and here we are, here, we
are today's show.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I've got three guests.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I've got a family who are there who are going
to share their story. I've got the chief rabbi here
in this community in Bondai, the chief minister of the
largest synagogue in Australia, which happens to be in Bondai.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
He's live on the scene for us.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
He knows people have been killed and we're up to
fifteen at this stage of recording, lives taken, destroyed. And
then I've got Travis Hawley, a former member of the
American military, national security expert, who takes us through having
watched very carefully the way these two gunmen operated, the
(06:14):
strategy they used, what kind of training you believes they had,
the type of weapons they used. The incredible hero who
risked his life to jump from behind a Muslim man,
an absolute legend. He would have saved countless lives. Well,
look at the police response as well. This is a
really important episode to get our heads around what has occurred.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
How we got here? Where two from here? Where? Two
from here? The two men who unleashed terror on this.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Community, they are cowards, absolute cowards. They went up high,
they hid behind concrete when they felt threatened, and they
shot at children who had no way of defending themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Cowards. There is no other word for it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So, ladies and gentlemen, the tone of this show is
not going to be too optimistic.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
We will get to that at a later stage, absolutely,
But for now, I need to bring you first hand accounts.
I need you to see the impact and I need
you to understand who these shooters were. My first guest
I'm going to bring you is a family who were
there on the ground when this all unfolded.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Wayne and Vanessa.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I usually say it's so lovely to have you on
the show, it's really not, and I'm so sorry that
you had to go through what you've gone through with
your family. But I welcome you very warmly to this
show and thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Thank you, and it's very happy to be here to
share our story, as traumatic as it is.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I think it really matters, to be honest. I
think people need to understand what occurred, because, I mean,
what we've seen in this country since October seven has
been horrific. I want to start with what actually happened.
If you can take me through step by step where
you were what you were doing, who you were with,
and when you knew something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Okay, I'll start off. So it was just such a
beautiful kind of event. We actually weren't intending to go
to the Bondo one. Our plan was to go to
the Dover Hearts one, and we had a kid's party
in the afternoon, and straight from the kid's party, we
drove to Dover Hearts and we got to Dover Hearts
and that one the sun said five thirty started at
(08:49):
five thirty, so we thought we can't hang around yet
till five thirty. We thought we'd just go down to Bonda.
We'll give you the kids something to eat, and then
we'll just go to the Bondo one. And I just
got gooostbumps. We're driving took ten not necessarily sure it's safe.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
To go to these things. You know, we're just in Australia.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
We're just such targets and Coverment's not doing much about it.
And I said, Vanessa, we live in Australia. We're going
to go to this event and we're going to go
happily with our family. And anyway we get there and
it was just beautiful events. It was hot dog stands,
and face painting. Our girls got their face painted. There
was a bubble lady and music and the kids were
(09:26):
dancing and playing.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
How old are the kids?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So Capri, the older one, is four, and Gigi, the
little one, she's three, she just turned three, and.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It was the event was going on. It was beautiful,
and Capri wanted to get.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Her. There was a guard doing balloon lot, you know,
taking balloons and making dogs and crocodiles and snakes, and
so Capri wanted to get a balloon. So I left
Vanessa and I walked up to the balloons there, which
was actually on the west end of the whole event,
closest to where the shooter was shooting from the bridge.
And we were waiting in line for the balloons, and
(10:11):
the next thing, I just feel something like hit me
in the face, like ricochet or something. I'm thinking, oh
my god, they must have settled for a firecracker, and
how I'm safe. And then because it was a big bang,
and then I heard heard it again, and then I
was just I took a pria picture up and I
grabbed and I just dived and I dived and I
dived under a table and I was just smothering. I
(10:33):
just had it completely underneath me, no part of her
body was exposed, and I was just there and I
was just like so much was going on, and it
was like two hands like outside of us, under the table,
like two armlengths away. There was a guy lying there
on the floor shot. Couldn't do anything about it. And
then the next thing, Vanessa phones me and she says
(10:53):
to me, have you got the kids I've got?
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I said, I said, I've just got Capri. She said,
I said, where's she doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Gig And at that moment, I was like I put
my head out like into the field to look at
to see if I could see her, and they were
just shooting and people with like the shoot shots were
going off and people said get down, get back, and
I just went and I just lay over Capri and
I just said, I said, they said we'll get her back,
we'll get her, we'll get her, and.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We're just lying.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Then the gun shots were going off and I couldn't
even move to go find my little baby.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And and it was just just the longest five minutes
were just lying.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Then there was this other guy was lying facing me
like he was out at the table but I said,
like I.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Said, said to him, and how long is this going
on for? And he was like saying to.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Me, I said, my little baby said, he said, he
needs he doesn't know where two of his children are.
And it was just the longest. I don't know, It
seemed like it went on for five ten minutes, and
then eventually the gun shots stopped. And then it first
stopped and then I mout and some used to get back.
Eventually it stopped, and I picked up Capri and I ran,
(12:06):
and I ran towards the cop pop I knew Vanessa was,
and I just passed Vanessa Capri and I said, I'm
going to look for Gig. And I went back and
there was just bladed and people lying on the floor
and dead bodies and people just and I was just
looking like amongst the people and the dead people, looking
for my baby. And eventually I saw she was wearing
(12:28):
a rainbow a rainbow skirts yesterday and a pink top.
And I just saw this rainbow skirt underneath someone, this
lady and then absolute here over person Jess Rosen. She
saw Gigs standing there crying and she just grabbed her
and she lay on top of her and she protected her,
and Tiggy was full of blood and I saw. I
(12:50):
got to Gy and I was like, oh my god,
I knew it, and she said, no, it's not her blood.
It was the blood of the lady next to her
got shot in the head and the blood just splashed
all over.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I just grabbed her.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I said to I said, to this lady, watch your name,
Just give me a number. I just have to get
my baby back to my wife. And I just grabbed
her and ran to Vanessa. And Vanessa at that point
she had also run back in to look for it
because she had passed Papri to her sister, and she
also wanted to look for it.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I just called Vanessa and I said, I've got her.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
She's alive and safe. And that was just the best
moment of my through that, even in that trauma, it
was finding my baby.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I'm formed, what's the best moment of my life?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Vanessa. I don't even what was I like for you?
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Poor just trying to get my words together. So we
got separated. Like Wayne said, he went with Papri to
go and get a balloon, and my daughter Gigi was
playing with my niece.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
They were dancing and there were.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
These plastic seats, and I saw someone I knew a
few people actually that I knew my mother's friends. They
were just elderly sitting there. Went up, said a load
to them, talk to them. They said, where's Caprim. We
want to see Capri. I said, okay, ggit's just here.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm going to go quick. You go get Capri.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
And I kissed one of the women, who I now
know has died. I took five steps forward, maybe six steps.
Next thing I know, there's just bullets flying. A man
in front of me.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I just saw.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
His head pretty much blown off.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
It was just a pop.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
People just dropping screaming.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I turn around.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
I can't see my little Ggy anywhere. I knew Wayne
had Capri. I was looking around, couldn't find Gig. I
was getting pulled and was just drop drop. I'm standing
around screaming, where are you? Where's my family? Where are
my girls? Someone I knew saw me said, you've got
to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
You just got to run.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
This is my baby, my baby, and my baby.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Run.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Don't worry your babies, because my baby.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
My baby, my baby.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
And I got pulled and I got dragged off. There
were two policemen. One was I were hiding behind a car.
One was a shot up in the head, was just
bleeding from his face, another one not injured. And I'm
just screaming, where's my baby?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Gig g g g.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Everyone's saying, pop, cool, they're going to come to us.
They're going to shoot us, They're going to shoot us.
I'm just screaming, I don't care, where.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Is my baby? Where's my baby? I'm trying to go.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And this next thing I see is from like thinking
to myself.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
And this is.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Where it's just so real and so disappointing in our government.
These police officers were hiding behind a car. I tried
to grab one of their guns. They won't want grabs
me and he says, no, I'm trying to grab for
his gun. These men, these police officers, they know who
(16:03):
I am. And I hope they're hearing this.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You a week.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
You could have said so many more people's lives. They
were just standing there, listening and watching this all happen,
holding me back. Two police officers.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Where were the others? Not there? Nobody was there.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Everyone the public helped, nobody else. My little three year
old was saved by a pregnant woman who saw her
crying and screaming mummy daddy running around while everyone was
on the floor. She's lucky to be alive. And I
know that today just so traumatic.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
It was so traumatic.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
We're looking celebrating the festival of life, and last night,
like we we observe and Jews, but we don't often
like kind of the candles. And last night our message
was just we lit kind of candles and we just
you know, around the world, we're just encouraging people to
like kind of the candles.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
For the victims that perish and.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The people that are in hospital, we pray for them
for their safety. There's just such coinage to see and
we just want, you know, it's pretty a positive message
out of this that we can bring light into this world.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
And we've got to get you know, fight this antisemitism.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Then we need to fight it fulle like how can
we not be entitled to go to a kind of
event in Bondla Beach and be shot at like animals,
like animals shooting at us like sitting DUTs.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Like the government has to do more. They know there's
a threating institution.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
They've got blood on their hands and they know it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They will deny, deny, deny, but they know it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You look at and first of all, I mean, I'm
a mom. I can't even imagine, and I'm so sorry
for what you went through. You are both incredibly brave
and I'm so grateful, Thank you for sharing. The Prime
Minister is denying that their government hasn't acted in this space.
I would disagree vehemently with that.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
We were witnessing and we were there. There was you know,
how how long did it take for police to come?
How long did it take?
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It was just what everyone was too scared and it's
like this all started on what was it, the march
at the Sydney Opera House on the ninth on the ninth.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Of October, allowing them to march on Sydney Harbor Bridge.
They even free reign in this country to absolutely think
that it's like, can condone terrorism?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Terrorism is an evil that needs to be stamped out
of every every community everywhere around the world. We kind
of live like this. This is Australia. This is a
mark on Australia, a scot on Australia's face.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Do you know what it's like? Where's a mother? And
I know that a lot of parents are in the
situation because you know, when I couldn't see g and
I just saw everyone on the floor. I was looking
for my dead child. I called my mother. Gunshots are
still fired, I said, gg is dead. Gg My, I
(19:25):
see her, she's got You know, what is a three
year old know what to do with this? Gunshots aren't
drop it? Hi, I knew she was alone. I knew,
you know all I don't know I'd like.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Looking for my child's dead body.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I couldn't see her.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I couldn't see her.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Not knowing what to expect that, I looked.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I looked everywhere. I thought she was then kidnapped. So
someone's taken her. Someone's taken her. Then my phone rings,
and when I've.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Got her, so is she alive?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
She's alive, took my baby. She's got blood on her.
Do you know what it was like? My daughter said, Mommy,
I got blood everywhere, washing that blood off in the bath.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
And you just sing red.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
You know it's.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
You don't ever think it's gonna happen to you.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
How are the girls, I mean, how have they been
sentse and what are you? What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Last night?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Putting Capri to sleep, so that we were lying under
the table.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
She said to me, Daddy, she said, when we're lying
on the table, that had to wear my pants because
I didn't want to go to the toilet and get dead.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Things have witnessed, yea, and now it's just.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
You know, we just need need the healing and bring
light and happiness to their beautiful souls. Yeah, just the
miracle that the miracle. There were four of us there.
You know, Vanessa and I are two little girls. I've
got a son, unfortunately he wasn't there, and Vanessa's sister
and her husband were there with their little girl, the seventh,
(21:12):
So there's seven of us. It must have only been
about four or five hundred people at this event. There
were so many people, sixteen dead and forty injured. You know,
that's like, yeah, one in ten people there. Yeah, we
were hurt or harmed, were killed. It's just it's insane
this could happen on Australia soil.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
What do you say to the Australians who have remained
silent since two days after October seventh the Opera House
where people gathered to celebrate the greatest loss of Jewish life,
and we have seen weak government, silent majorities and a
nation that I used to be immensely proud of fail
(21:54):
you and your people.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
It's it's a disgrace people to live in a country
where you can get shot at bond Up Beach, the
most beautiful beach in Australia.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
It's a arkon of Australia is a bond Up Beach.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
To have this all over the news and this is
this is not a one one off event. This is
you know, there's yeah breathing this anti semitism with the
weak government stance against this. The government should be doing more,
The leadership should be doing more. There's so much more
that they can do. They need to stand behind the community.
(22:29):
I mean, it's you know, it's you know, it's just
a it's appalling that, you know, the position that they've
left the Jewish community in Australia and so many Yeah,
I immigrated from South Africa seventeen years ago, came out
to a safer place to live and speaking to my
family back home, you know it's like that's not safer,
(22:54):
it's you know, you expect more, just expect so much
more from Australia.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What do you guys do now? Do you stay in
this country, do you.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
I always said my heart is with Israel. I feel
like it's the safest place. They protect the people.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
But you know, I don't want to give up on Australia.
I think, you know, there's something's got to change.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
There's some we need, we need, we need, we need
change in this country and we need positive change, and
we need people to Jews are not non Jews, to
stand up and stand up and say it's not good enough,
because it really isn't good enough.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
It's not okay. What's happening is not okay.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, I agree entirely, and we need more voices and
we need them louder. And it's too late, but now
is the second best time to start. Thank you both,
Wayne and Vanessa so so much for sharing your story.
I'm so sorry that that my country and your country
has let you down so badly. I'm so sorry for
Capri and for gg But I have no doubt your
(24:00):
resilience and your strength. You are the most phenomenal parents.
I can tell that already, and they're so lucky to
have you. And I'm so so glad that you're going
about alive.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
So you know, my daughter gets to she woke up
this she woke up this morning, she got to put
on her princess dress, her lip glass and because of
this woman, she was able to smile again, giggle.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We're actually going to meet her this afternoon. We just
want to reunite them. She sent us a photo of her.
She sent a photo her with blood dropping off her face,
lying on top of gy.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
It's just such a such a special person.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And incredible and yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I also just want to thank you for thank you
the good and the speaking out of the Jeish community
that you've done.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I feel like it hasn't done enough, but I'm sorry
we've failed you.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
No, but people like you there will be a change.
People need to speak up. And you know what, the
more they try and put us down, the more we
were rise.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
We are going to be stronger.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Because we are strong, we will stand up and fight
and luck candles and in the candles will bring luck
to the darkness.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You're amazing. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I'd now like to welcome in Rabbi Wolf, who is
the chief minister of the largest synagogue in Australia, which
just so happens to be in Bondai.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Rabbi First of all heartbroken.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I'm so sorry for everything that your community and our
community is going through.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
Thank you Eron. We are absolutely devastated. We are battered.
We are unfortunately not surprised. That's the honest rout. When
we have been watching anti Semitism go unchecked for too long,
(25:58):
this inevitably leads to terrorism for Jews on the streets.
That's the unfortunate reality of what's been going on here,
and what started at the Upper House moved on to
the bridge and it has now moved to the beach
right behind me. And sadly, this is just beyond any
(26:24):
study's expectation of what Australia should be and what Australia
has been.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
You, probably more than anyone else, such a big part
of the Jewish community, and you are connected in a
way that most others aren't. How does something like this
impacted community that was already struggling. If we're being completely
honest and already suffering.
Speaker 6 (26:52):
We are a very resilient community. The Jewish people are
today celebrating Khanakah and two thousand, two hundred years ago,
a mighty empire which was considered to be the superpower
of its day, try to put an end to a
militarily weak Jewish people, and we're here to say this story.
(27:15):
We're here lighting our manaas and we will continue to
light our candles. We will continue to shine light, and
we continue to stand tall. But it is very difficult
and a very challenging time for our people, and we
have the capacity to have both of those things. Feel
terrible shock and loss, and at the same time know
(27:35):
that that cannot and will not define who we are.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Did you know any of the victims, Rabbi I knew.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Too many of the victims. One of them was a
very dear friend and a colleague, probably Eli Schlanger, who
was a rabbi right here a few blocks away here
in Bandai, at the Khabad Synagogue in Bandai, with their
wife and five children. I was actually outside here until
(28:06):
about one pint thirty the morning last night with another
member of our community who we were looking for her husband.
We thought he had been taken away injured to a hospital,
and we only later found out in the early hours
of the morning. I think has been one of the
sixteen victims. She also has a house filled with children.
(28:32):
It is beyondwards what our community is right now.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Gorington.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You mentioned the Opera House and I use this as
what I say is the catalyst for the rotten decay
in this country.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And not just what occurred on that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Day, because every country will have evil within it, but
the response from government and the majority of Australians, or
the lack thereof, terrified me. Do you see that as
a moment where we should have stood up and said
not on our watch, but we failed miserably as a nation.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (29:07):
Absolutely, what should have happened as soon as we saw
the march on the Opera House on the ninth of
October twenty twenty three. But what should have happened then
didn't And the next best time is now. And what
I would say to many of your viewers, especially to
(29:28):
the wider community, amazing, wonderful Australians who have been categorized
in many ways as the silent majorities. We can no
longer be silent. This is not something that commissioners or
premiers or politicians can put an end to. This has
to be done and outrooted by grass root Australians. This
(29:53):
is a time for every single father and mother to
sit down with their children around the dinner tables and
to say that bigotry and anti Semitism is something which
will not be tolerated here, because ultimately we have seen
the sixteen innocent lives gone down because of too much
(30:15):
soft talk and too much talk. And now it's a
time for absolute action and action from every single one
of our beloved members of the Australian community. Nobody wants
to live in a society where Jews, proud Australians have
to fear going to synagogue, have to fear walking around
(30:37):
with a kipa on their head, have to fear walking
around with a uniform that says they go to a
Jewish school. It doesn't feel right to live in a
country where your children have to have armed guards in
front of their schools. It doesn't feel right that if
you're going to play sports for a Jewish team, you
have to have security standing around to watch your kids.
(31:00):
And the only people that are going to be able
to stop this is not necessarily those pointed in office,
but it is us those who send them to the office.
And the silent majority needs to become no longer silent.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Rabbi, I tell you it may not feel right. I'm
telling you from a non Jewish Australian.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It is not right.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
This country has failed you and your people miserably. You
are Australians. You deserve better than this, and I hope
that this is a catalyst for significant change, not empty words,
but real change.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I'm so sorry for your loss, and we're so grateful
to have you on the show and in our community.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
You are such a course strength.
Speaker 6 (31:42):
Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you for being
such a great ambassador for truth. And this is the
holiday of Khneka. I want to encourage so many of
your Jewish viewers that we're considering this holiday just to
sort of be a bystander. This is not a time
to stand by. This is the time to take you.
If you don't have a kind of a manura, go
(32:02):
and get one. If you need one, I'll make sure
we send you on. Bring light to the world in
honor of those who could not light to the manura.
This year, we need every little bit of light, a
small little bit of light to spill so much darkness.
That's the message of this holiday. God bless you all.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
God bless you. You're amazing. Thank you, Ebbi.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I'd now like to welcome in a national security analyst
Travis Hawley.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Trav, thank you so so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
What did you make a vision that you've seen thus
far of these two gunmen at the Bondai mass shooting.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:35):
So, I think when we put this in context, especially
for people who live outside of Australia, people don't really
know in the West that Australia banned most guns back
in around nineteen ninety six after its most tragic mass shooting.
I believe thirty five people were killed then. So this
now stands as the second most deadly fatal mass shooting
(32:57):
in Australia's history and happens to target the Jewish people
on the first night of Hanukkah. So I think for
many of us who have been tracking this globalized into
Fodda movement following October seventh, twenty twenty three, as many
are saying it's tragic but not surprising, I think what
is surprising to many. Again, I'm not an Australian citizen,
(33:19):
as people can tell from my accent. What is surprising though,
is that they had the weapons and the skills to
carry out such a massacre for over ten minutes without
anyone intervening. Whether it was civilians or police, which of
course we'll get into that they eventually did, but for
so much time they were able to just freely shoot
(33:41):
into the crowds in Australia in twenty twenty five is
absolutely shocking.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
When I first saw this vision trave and I was
on my balcony with my seven year old and we
heard the gunshots start and there were just so many,
and you're right, it went on and went on, and
we kind of went straight inside to see some of
the vision come through, and I saw that the two
men with black jackets on the bridge shooting, and I
didn't have the volume up because I didn't want my
little girl to hear. But my first thought, and it
(34:11):
lasted for maybe half an hour, was that these were
police because no one was running around them or or
even close or kind of trying b They looked so calm,
and they looked so competent, and I didn't see panic
or fear or kind of the scattering or some of
the things the attributes I would kind of expect from
(34:35):
someone who hadn't done this before, or you know, clearly
tell me about the style in which they shot, how
much they would have had to have trained. Is it
difficult to hit targets with those kind of weapons? They
were obviously at a height on a bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I know that area incredibly well.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
It looks down on a kid's playground on a kind
of grassy knoll there.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Right before the beach.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
What did you make of their technique and what would
have gone into the kind of preparation And you know,
we'll find out more about ideology down the track. But
they also again you make the point that don't look scared.
There are reasons for that as well.
Speaker 7 (35:09):
Yeah, this is a very important point. And luckily there
is a lot of video of this, and from the
video you can see that at the very least, the son,
who I believe is twenty four years old, named Navid, I'll.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Tell you their names now, Navid A Crumb twenty four
and Sajid A Crumb fifty father and son.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
So the father and son duo here. At least from
the video of the son, he appeared to be the
most competent and skilled. I actually just posted a video
I came across which was fairly close to him, where
he's using a bolt action rifle. Usually this is done
for hunting, so it's possible that these six firearms just
so people are caught up here. They had six firearms
(35:50):
on them and they were all apparently licensed.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And yes, one person at six as part of a license.
Speaker 7 (35:56):
These appeared to shotguns and rifles, which would make sense
potentially if they were for license for hunting purposes. And
the way Navid is firing the bolt action rifle is
actually quite impressive. Now we can't see his aim. They
are up on a higher perch, as you mentioned, which
is incredibly strategic if you want to shoot into a
crowd and not get shot.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Can I off for another word, Travis, Absolutely cowardly, but yes, strategic.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
Yeah, definitely cowardly as well. And they were shooting down
into these crowds with a bolt action rifle and shotguns.
At least Navid was in one of the videos. This
bridge now infamous. And from how quickly is he is shooting,
he is firing, he's essentially making this semi automatic rifle
(36:45):
appeared to be automatic, and how well he is firing it,
so definitely not an amateur. This is not someone who
is brand new to shooting. Potentially we're going to see
maybe they had some type of firing range history or
some hunting history. Having said that, whether it was at
the firing range or hunting, the way he was shooting
this rifle was as automatic as possible, and this is,
(37:09):
you know, to skirt the laws that the West has
about many automatic rifles. So yes, sadly, a very impressive execution,
a part in the language here of how this terrorist
carried it out, and they also found two improvised explosives
on them. This was very professionally and meticulously planned. And
(37:29):
I'm not sure they even thought that how successful they
would be and how much time they would have, because
the speed in which they were firing was extremely rapid,
and they were not intervened for some time. I think
maybe they even themselves may have been surprised how easy
it was to gain this higher ground and to fire NonStop.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There were some reports, and you know, police are incredibly
brave and they do the kind of job that most
of us would never do. But there were some eyewitness
reports that inferred that police were frozen in you know,
some of them were and not acting who were there.
So we'll wait and let that because that's fair to place.
Let that investigation play out. I want to ask you
(38:12):
about this man who himself, jumped upon one of the
gunmen from behind, kind of wrapped his arms around, managed
to take the shotgun off him, of course, also then
being exposed to the other gunman to turn his attention
to just an act of incredible bravery. I think Donald
Trump has come out and said how courageous it was.
(38:32):
What did you make of that? And how I mean
I might have held a gun once at a range
for a story, I would not have any and I
think most people fall into that category, particularly in Australia.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
You mentioned our guns, they are insane.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
John Howard, the Prime Minister at the time after the
Port Arthur massacre, came in and did a phenomenal job there.
This guy was brave, like what would he have been thinking.
I mean, talk us through that, because it's so hard
to complim.
Speaker 7 (38:59):
What he did was absolutely heroic. Some reports are saying
his name is Ahmed Ahmed. It's unclear, I think, or
unconfirmed what his background entirely was. But what he did
is what a man should do in this position. He
hid behind a car out of the peripheral vision of
the terrorist. I believe it was the father that he
(39:20):
sort of tackled and wrest away the gun for he
waited for his moments so that he didn't you know,
risk his own life too much of a high degree.
He grabbed him from behind and he wrestled away the
rifle seemingly fairly easy, which was just amazing to see.
This is what we needed more of. And sadly, again
(39:41):
I'm not here to judge as much, but I will
say the amount of time that went on with no
one intervening, including the police, is unacceptable. This world right now,
particularly in this assassination culture and explosion of his Slamist terrorism,
needs more of again, if this is his real name,
Metal Ahmed, we need more of those people who will
(40:02):
jump in and intervene and risk their own life because
this is what we learned from Columbine back in the
nineties that during mass shootings, you don't wait. You swarm
in with as many people as possible, and you might
even get harmed in the process. I believe Ahmed al
Ahmed has two wounds, one in his arm and one
(40:22):
it is his hand. I believe gunshot wounds. I could
be incorrect and was in surgery. And that's what a
man does, and that's what a society that does not
put up with terrorism. Does is we need to rush
in sooner because there needs to be a deterrent and
we need to send a signal that terrorism will not
be watched upon until the police come. We cannot rely
(40:45):
on our police in the West. That is very clear.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Absolutely, Travis, your insights are incredible. Thank you so so much.
I know that you also do the most phenomenal work
when you look into who these people are, their online footprint,
past behaviors in the digital space and elsewhere. I'd love
to get you back on later in the week. I
know there's too many shootings for you to keep up with,
and this is very fresh. I'd love to get you
(41:10):
back on after you have a chance to look at
at anything, if anything exists online with these guys. Definitely,
thank you, really appreciate that. Thank thank you for everything
you do. And if people want to follow your work,
please tell us where they can just.
Speaker 7 (41:22):
Check out on any social media talk to trave the
number ta LK number two trave And despite the horrific
start to Honkah, I still want to wish all the
Jewish people out there happy Hanukkah. Do your best to stay.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Strong, beautifully said, Thank you so much. Thank you, ladies
and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. For
I mean, it's not a very special episode. I wish
it was an episode that we that we'd never have
to do. But here we are tomorrow. I've got an
incredible guest, an Australian, Australian citizen, a Muslim Man. They
(41:57):
call him the Imam of Peace, and I tell you
what he has got a message for anyone who mentions the.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Word is Lamophobia that you need to hear. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
If you enjoyed this episode, if you found it valuable,
and when I say enjoy in an informative way, please
share it. Please please share it as widely as possible.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Again.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I'll see you tomorrow morning, six am ET.
Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. Welcome
to the Aeron Mullins Show. It is wonderful to have
your company wherever you are around the world. Thank you
so so much for joining us and for tuning in,
whether you're watching on YouTube, on social media or on
the podcast. We're very grateful for your company. We're still
focused very heavily on the shooting that has occurred at
(00:29):
Bondeai Beach in Sydney, Australia, a mass shooting targeting the
Jewish community here. Most of Sydney's Jewish community live in
the eastern suburbs, particularly around the Bondai kind of Bellevue
Hill Dover Heights for close areas. I was on the
balcony with my little girl at home when the shots
started to ring out.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
We heard them.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Then I started to see some of the images coming through,
absolutely harrowing. Two cowards on a bridge, shotguns, just destroying
people's life. They didn't look afraid, they were not panicked.
They looked so calm. I thought originally they were policemen,
to be honest, when I started to see these images
(01:08):
come through, because they just looked like they knew what
they were doing and there was no one really around
up until we saw this incredible hero who I'll talk
about in a second. But they just seem to have
so much time to do it. And then we started
to see images of what had occurred.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
You we saw the.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Angle from behind, the men on the bridge, we couldn't
really see down in front. Then we started to see
images from down in front, and bodies strewn out, blood everywhere, prams,
mothers cowering over babies, absolutely sickening and gut wrenching. And
you know, this phrase gets banded about. You know, this
isn't Australia, this isn't who we are. Well, you know what,
(01:51):
maybe it's time we actually started to accept this is
who we are now. And that has been through failure
after failure after failure in so many different ways. This
country has failed failed miserably. The Australian Jewish population, a
group of people who have given so much, who have
come to this country and contributed immensely, who have embraced
(02:14):
our values, our way of life, came with them in
order to protect a group of extremist terrorists who despise
what we value, who despise our way of life, who
wave terrorist flags outside our opera house marching across our bridge.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
It's been an utter disgrace.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Over two years to watch this decay, this rot, to
watch our leadership at every single point where they were tested,
fail and fail and fail, rewarding October seven with a
Palestinian state going to Israel after October seven, but not
visiting the sites of the massacre.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Again, the rhetoric, the tone that was used when talking
about Israel.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
They cared more about winning votes in sections of society
they believe they needed to retain power, than they cared
about protecting the people who matter everyday, Australians who cared
deeply about what this country stands for, who embrace our
way of life, and that includes people from other countries absolutely,
(03:23):
who are the fabric of this nation. I speak of
people who come to this country, who are grateful for
an opportunity, who take that with both hands, who absolutely
retain parts of their own culture and religion that are
especial and important to them, but in the ways that matter,
they embrace.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
What matters to us.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
It's been a harrowing couple of days in this community,
a community that has already suffered so much off the
back of the hate that has been allowed to fester
and go unchecked. And we said over and over and
over and over and over again that this is what's
going to happen. If they don't step up, if the
(04:06):
government doesn't step up, if law enforcement, if the silent
majority in this country stay silent, then this is what
will happen.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And we were dismissed, we were laughed at, we were mocked, mocked.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I'm not Jewish, but I could see from day dot
what was going on, and I look at how I
was treated because I spoke out for this community.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And that is why we're here.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Because for the people who spoke out, the Jewish people
who are brave enough to speak out, and the non
Jewish people who are brave enough to speak out, we
got annihilated, annihilated, and we still do. This is why
we speak out in what now appears to be a
futile attempt to stop what happened, because we could see
(05:09):
it coming. We could see it coming, hundreds of thousands
marching across a bridge, Taliban flags chanting death to the IDF,
holding up posters of terrorists who slaughtered babies. Yet it
(05:29):
fell on deaf ears, and here we are, here, we
are today's show.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
I've got three guests.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I've got a family who are there who are going
to share their story. I've got the chief rabbi here
in this community in Bondai, the chief minister of the
largest synagogue in Australia, which happens to be in Bondai.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
He's live on the scene for us.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
He knows people have been killed and we're up to
fifteen at this stage of recording, lives taken, destroyed. And
then I've got Travis Hawley, a former member of the
American military, national security expert, who takes us through having
watched very carefully the way these two gunmen operated, the
(06:14):
strategy they used, what kind of training you believes they had,
the type of weapons they used. The incredible hero who
risked his life to jump from behind a Muslim man,
an absolute legend. He would have saved countless lives. Well,
look at the police response as well. This is a
really important episode to get our heads around what has occurred.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
How we got here? Where two from here? Where? Two
from here? The two men who unleashed terror on this.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Community, they are cowards, absolute cowards. They went up high,
they hid behind concrete when they felt threatened, and they
shot at children who had no way of defending themselves.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Cowards. There is no other word for it.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
So, ladies and gentlemen, the tone of this show is
not going to be too optimistic.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Unfortunately.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
We will get to that at a later stage, absolutely,
But for now, I need to bring you first hand accounts.
I need you to see the impact and I need
you to understand who these shooters were. My first guest
I'm going to bring you is a family who were
there on the ground when this all unfolded.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Wayne and Vanessa.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I usually say it's so lovely to have you on
the show, it's really not, and I'm so sorry that
you had to go through what you've gone through with
your family. But I welcome you very warmly to this
show and thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Thank you, and it's very happy to be here to
share our story, as traumatic as it is.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Yeah, I think it really matters, to be honest. I
think people need to understand what occurred, because, I mean,
what we've seen in this country since October seven has
been horrific. I want to start with what actually happened.
If you can take me through step by step where
you were what you were doing, who you were with,
and when you knew something was wrong.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Okay, I'll start off. So it was just such a
beautiful kind of event. We actually weren't intending to go
to the Bondo one. Our plan was to go to
the Dover Hearts one, and we had a kid's party
in the afternoon, and straight from the kid's party, we
drove to Dover Hearts and we got to Dover Hearts
and that one the sun said five thirty started at
(08:49):
five thirty, so we thought we can't hang around yet
till five thirty. We thought we'd just go down to Bonda.
We'll give you the kids something to eat, and then
we'll just go to the Bondo one. And I just
got gooostbumps. We're driving took ten not necessarily sure it's safe.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
To go to these things. You know, we're just in Australia.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
We're just such targets and Coverment's not doing much about it.
And I said, Vanessa, we live in Australia. We're going
to go to this event and we're going to go
happily with our family. And anyway we get there and
it was just beautiful events. It was hot dog stands,
and face painting. Our girls got their face painted. There
was a bubble lady and music and the kids were
(09:26):
dancing and playing.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
How old are the kids?
Speaker 3 (09:30):
So Capri, the older one, is four, and Gigi, the
little one, she's three, she just turned three, and.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
It was the event was going on. It was beautiful,
and Capri wanted to get.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Her. There was a guard doing balloon lot, you know,
taking balloons and making dogs and crocodiles and snakes, and
so Capri wanted to get a balloon. So I left
Vanessa and I walked up to the balloons there, which
was actually on the west end of the whole event,
closest to where the shooter was shooting from the bridge.
And we were waiting in line for the balloons, and
(10:11):
the next thing, I just feel something like hit me
in the face, like ricochet or something. I'm thinking, oh
my god, they must have settled for a firecracker, and
how I'm safe. And then because it was a big bang,
and then I heard heard it again, and then I
was just I took a pria picture up and I
grabbed and I just dived and I dived and I
dived under a table and I was just smothering. I
(10:33):
just had it completely underneath me, no part of her
body was exposed, and I was just there and I
was just like so much was going on, and it
was like two hands like outside of us, under the table,
like two armlengths away. There was a guy lying there
on the floor shot. Couldn't do anything about it. And
then the next thing, Vanessa phones me and she says
(10:53):
to me, have you got the kids I've got?
Speaker 4 (10:55):
I said, I said, I've just got Capri. She said,
I said, where's she doesn't have.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Gig And at that moment, I was like I put
my head out like into the field to look at
to see if I could see her, and they were
just shooting and people with like the shoot shots were
going off and people said get down, get back, and
I just went and I just lay over Capri and
I just said, I said, they said we'll get her back,
we'll get her, we'll get her, and.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
We're just lying.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Then the gun shots were going off and I couldn't
even move to go find my little baby.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
And and it was just just the longest five minutes
were just lying.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
Then there was this other guy was lying facing me
like he was out at the table but I said,
like I.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Said, said to him, and how long is this going
on for? And he was like saying to.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Me, I said, my little baby said, he said, he
needs he doesn't know where two of his children are.
And it was just the longest. I don't know, It
seemed like it went on for five ten minutes, and
then eventually the gun shots stopped. And then it first
stopped and then I mout and some used to get back.
Eventually it stopped, and I picked up Capri and I ran,
(12:06):
and I ran towards the cop pop I knew Vanessa was,
and I just passed Vanessa Capri and I said, I'm
going to look for Gig. And I went back and
there was just bladed and people lying on the floor
and dead bodies and people just and I was just
looking like amongst the people and the dead people, looking
for my baby. And eventually I saw she was wearing
(12:28):
a rainbow a rainbow skirts yesterday and a pink top.
And I just saw this rainbow skirt underneath someone, this
lady and then absolute here over person Jess Rosen. She
saw Gigs standing there crying and she just grabbed her
and she lay on top of her and she protected her,
and Tiggy was full of blood and I saw. I
(12:50):
got to Gy and I was like, oh my god,
I knew it, and she said, no, it's not her blood.
It was the blood of the lady next to her
got shot in the head and the blood just splashed
all over.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
I just grabbed her.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I said to I said, to this lady, watch your name,
Just give me a number. I just have to get
my baby back to my wife. And I just grabbed
her and ran to Vanessa. And Vanessa at that point
she had also run back in to look for it
because she had passed Papri to her sister, and she
also wanted to look for it.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
And I just called Vanessa and I said, I've got her.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
She's alive and safe. And that was just the best
moment of my through that, even in that trauma, it
was finding my baby.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
I'm formed, what's the best moment of my life?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Vanessa. I don't even what was I like for you?
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Poor just trying to get my words together. So we
got separated. Like Wayne said, he went with Papri to
go and get a balloon, and my daughter Gigi was
playing with my niece.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
They were dancing and there were.
Speaker 5 (14:00):
These plastic seats, and I saw someone I knew a
few people actually that I knew my mother's friends. They
were just elderly sitting there. Went up, said a load
to them, talk to them. They said, where's Caprim. We
want to see Capri. I said, okay, ggit's just here.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
I'm going to go quick. You go get Capri.
Speaker 5 (14:16):
And I kissed one of the women, who I now
know has died. I took five steps forward, maybe six steps.
Next thing I know, there's just bullets flying. A man
in front of me.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
I just saw.
Speaker 5 (14:34):
His head pretty much blown off.
Speaker 4 (14:35):
It was just a pop.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
People just dropping screaming.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I turn around.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
I can't see my little Ggy anywhere. I knew Wayne
had Capri. I was looking around, couldn't find Gig. I
was getting pulled and was just drop drop. I'm standing
around screaming, where are you? Where's my family? Where are
my girls? Someone I knew saw me said, you've got
to get out of here.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
You just got to run.
Speaker 4 (15:04):
This is my baby, my baby, and my baby.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Run.
Speaker 5 (15:07):
Don't worry your babies, because my baby.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
My baby, my baby.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
And I got pulled and I got dragged off. There
were two policemen. One was I were hiding behind a car.
One was a shot up in the head, was just
bleeding from his face, another one not injured. And I'm
just screaming, where's my baby?
Speaker 2 (15:27):
Gig g g g.
Speaker 5 (15:28):
Everyone's saying, pop, cool, they're going to come to us.
They're going to shoot us, They're going to shoot us.
I'm just screaming, I don't care, where.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Is my baby? Where's my baby? I'm trying to go.
Speaker 5 (15:36):
And this next thing I see is from like thinking
to myself.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
And this is.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
Where it's just so real and so disappointing in our government.
These police officers were hiding behind a car. I tried
to grab one of their guns. They won't want grabs
me and he says, no, I'm trying to grab for
his gun. These men, these police officers, they know who
(16:03):
I am. And I hope they're hearing this.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You a week.
Speaker 5 (16:11):
You could have said so many more people's lives. They
were just standing there, listening and watching this all happen,
holding me back. Two police officers.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
Where were the others? Not there? Nobody was there.
Speaker 5 (16:30):
Everyone the public helped, nobody else. My little three year
old was saved by a pregnant woman who saw her
crying and screaming mummy daddy running around while everyone was
on the floor. She's lucky to be alive. And I
know that today just so traumatic.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
It was so traumatic.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
We're looking celebrating the festival of life, and last night,
like we we observe and Jews, but we don't often
like kind of the candles. And last night our message
was just we lit kind of candles and we just
you know, around the world, we're just encouraging people to
like kind of the candles.
Speaker 4 (17:15):
For the victims that perish and.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
The people that are in hospital, we pray for them
for their safety. There's just such coinage to see and
we just want, you know, it's pretty a positive message
out of this that we can bring light into this world.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
And we've got to get you know, fight this antisemitism.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Then we need to fight it fulle like how can
we not be entitled to go to a kind of
event in Bondla Beach and be shot at like animals,
like animals shooting at us like sitting DUTs.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
Like the government has to do more. They know there's
a threating institution.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
They've got blood on their hands and they know it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
They will deny, deny, deny, but they know it.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You look at and first of all, I mean, I'm
a mom. I can't even imagine, and I'm so sorry
for what you went through. You are both incredibly brave
and I'm so grateful, Thank you for sharing. The Prime
Minister is denying that their government hasn't acted in this space.
I would disagree vehemently with that.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
We were witnessing and we were there. There was you know,
how how long did it take for police to come?
How long did it take?
Speaker 3 (18:24):
It was just what everyone was too scared and it's
like this all started on what was it, the march
at the Sydney Opera House on the ninth on the ninth.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
Of October, allowing them to march on Sydney Harbor Bridge.
They even free reign in this country to absolutely think
that it's like, can condone terrorism?
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Terrorism is an evil that needs to be stamped out
of every every community everywhere around the world. We kind
of live like this. This is Australia. This is a
mark on Australia, a scot on Australia's face.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
Do you know what it's like? Where's a mother? And
I know that a lot of parents are in the
situation because you know, when I couldn't see g and
I just saw everyone on the floor. I was looking
for my dead child. I called my mother. Gunshots are
still fired, I said, gg is dead. Gg My, I
(19:25):
see her, she's got You know, what is a three
year old know what to do with this? Gunshots aren't
drop it? Hi, I knew she was alone. I knew,
you know all I don't know I'd like.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Looking for my child's dead body.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
I couldn't see her.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
I couldn't see her.
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Not knowing what to expect that, I looked.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I looked everywhere. I thought she was then kidnapped. So
someone's taken her. Someone's taken her. Then my phone rings,
and when I've.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Got her, so is she alive?
Speaker 5 (20:05):
She's alive, took my baby. She's got blood on her.
Do you know what it was like? My daughter said, Mommy,
I got blood everywhere, washing that blood off in the bath.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
And you just sing red.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
You know it's.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
You don't ever think it's gonna happen to you.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
How are the girls, I mean, how have they been
sentse and what are you? What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Last night?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Putting Capri to sleep, so that we were lying under
the table.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
She said to me, Daddy, she said, when we're lying
on the table, that had to wear my pants because
I didn't want to go to the toilet and get dead.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Things have witnessed, yea, and now it's just.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
You know, we just need need the healing and bring
light and happiness to their beautiful souls. Yeah, just the
miracle that the miracle. There were four of us there.
You know, Vanessa and I are two little girls. I've
got a son, unfortunately he wasn't there, and Vanessa's sister
and her husband were there with their little girl, the seventh,
(21:12):
So there's seven of us. It must have only been
about four or five hundred people at this event. There
were so many people, sixteen dead and forty injured. You know,
that's like, yeah, one in ten people there. Yeah, we
were hurt or harmed, were killed. It's just it's insane
this could happen on Australia soil.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
What do you say to the Australians who have remained
silent since two days after October seventh the Opera House
where people gathered to celebrate the greatest loss of Jewish life,
and we have seen weak government, silent majorities and a
nation that I used to be immensely proud of fail
(21:54):
you and your people.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
It's it's a disgrace people to live in a country
where you can get shot at bond Up Beach, the
most beautiful beach in Australia.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
It's a arkon of Australia is a bond Up Beach.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
To have this all over the news and this is
this is not a one one off event. This is
you know, there's yeah breathing this anti semitism with the
weak government stance against this. The government should be doing more,
The leadership should be doing more. There's so much more
that they can do. They need to stand behind the community.
(22:29):
I mean, it's you know, it's you know, it's just
a it's appalling that, you know, the position that they've
left the Jewish community in Australia and so many Yeah,
I immigrated from South Africa seventeen years ago, came out
to a safer place to live and speaking to my
family back home, you know it's like that's not safer,
(22:54):
it's you know, you expect more, just expect so much
more from Australia.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What do you guys do now? Do you stay in
this country, do you.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
I always said my heart is with Israel. I feel
like it's the safest place. They protect the people.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
But you know, I don't want to give up on Australia.
I think, you know, there's something's got to change.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
There's some we need, we need, we need, we need
change in this country and we need positive change, and
we need people to Jews are not non Jews, to
stand up and stand up and say it's not good enough,
because it really isn't good enough.
Speaker 4 (23:34):
It's not okay. What's happening is not okay.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Yeah, I agree entirely, and we need more voices and
we need them louder. And it's too late, but now
is the second best time to start. Thank you both,
Wayne and Vanessa so so much for sharing your story.
I'm so sorry that that my country and your country
has let you down so badly. I'm so sorry for
Capri and for gg But I have no doubt your
(24:00):
resilience and your strength. You are the most phenomenal parents.
I can tell that already, and they're so lucky to
have you. And I'm so so glad that you're going
about alive.
Speaker 5 (24:08):
So you know, my daughter gets to she woke up
this she woke up this morning, she got to put
on her princess dress, her lip glass and because of
this woman, she was able to smile again, giggle.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
We're actually going to meet her this afternoon. We just
want to reunite them. She sent us a photo of her.
She sent a photo her with blood dropping off her face,
lying on top of gy.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
It's just such a such a special person.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
And incredible and yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
I also just want to thank you for thank you
the good and the speaking out of the Jeish community
that you've done.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
I feel like it hasn't done enough, but I'm sorry
we've failed you.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
No, but people like you there will be a change.
People need to speak up. And you know what, the
more they try and put us down, the more we
were rise.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
We are going to be stronger.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Because we are strong, we will stand up and fight
and luck candles and in the candles will bring luck
to the darkness.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
You're amazing. Thank you both so much.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
I'd now like to welcome in Rabbi Wolf, who is
the chief minister of the largest synagogue in Australia, which
just so happens to be in Bondai.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Rabbi First of all heartbroken.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
I'm so sorry for everything that your community and our
community is going through.
Speaker 6 (25:36):
Thank you Eron. We are absolutely devastated. We are battered.
We are unfortunately not surprised. That's the honest rout. When
we have been watching anti Semitism go unchecked for too long,
(25:58):
this inevitably leads to terrorism for Jews on the streets.
That's the unfortunate reality of what's been going on here,
and what started at the Upper House moved on to
the bridge and it has now moved to the beach
right behind me. And sadly, this is just beyond any
(26:24):
study's expectation of what Australia should be and what Australia
has been.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
You, probably more than anyone else, such a big part
of the Jewish community, and you are connected in a
way that most others aren't. How does something like this
impacted community that was already struggling. If we're being completely
honest and already suffering.
Speaker 6 (26:52):
We are a very resilient community. The Jewish people are
today celebrating Khanakah and two thousand, two hundred years ago,
a mighty empire which was considered to be the superpower
of its day, try to put an end to a
militarily weak Jewish people, and we're here to say this story.
(27:15):
We're here lighting our manaas and we will continue to
light our candles. We will continue to shine light, and
we continue to stand tall. But it is very difficult
and a very challenging time for our people, and we
have the capacity to have both of those things. Feel
terrible shock and loss, and at the same time know
(27:35):
that that cannot and will not define who we are.
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Did you know any of the victims, Rabbi I knew.
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Too many of the victims. One of them was a
very dear friend and a colleague, probably Eli Schlanger, who
was a rabbi right here a few blocks away here
in Bandai, at the Khabad Synagogue in Bandai, with their
wife and five children. I was actually outside here until
(28:06):
about one pint thirty the morning last night with another
member of our community who we were looking for her husband.
We thought he had been taken away injured to a hospital,
and we only later found out in the early hours
of the morning. I think has been one of the
sixteen victims. She also has a house filled with children.
(28:32):
It is beyondwards what our community is right now.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Gorington.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You mentioned the Opera House and I use this as
what I say is the catalyst for the rotten decay
in this country.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And not just what occurred on that.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Day, because every country will have evil within it, but
the response from government and the majority of Australians, or
the lack thereof, terrified me. Do you see that as
a moment where we should have stood up and said
not on our watch, but we failed miserably as a nation.
Speaker 4 (29:06):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (29:07):
Absolutely, what should have happened as soon as we saw
the march on the Opera House on the ninth of
October twenty twenty three. But what should have happened then
didn't And the next best time is now. And what
I would say to many of your viewers, especially to
(29:28):
the wider community, amazing, wonderful Australians who have been categorized
in many ways as the silent majorities. We can no
longer be silent. This is not something that commissioners or
premiers or politicians can put an end to. This has
to be done and outrooted by grass root Australians. This
(29:53):
is a time for every single father and mother to
sit down with their children around the dinner tables and
to say that bigotry and anti Semitism is something which
will not be tolerated here, because ultimately we have seen
the sixteen innocent lives gone down because of too much
(30:15):
soft talk and too much talk. And now it's a
time for absolute action and action from every single one
of our beloved members of the Australian community. Nobody wants
to live in a society where Jews, proud Australians have
to fear going to synagogue, have to fear walking around
(30:37):
with a kipa on their head, have to fear walking
around with a uniform that says they go to a
Jewish school. It doesn't feel right to live in a
country where your children have to have armed guards in
front of their schools. It doesn't feel right that if
you're going to play sports for a Jewish team, you
have to have security standing around to watch your kids.
(31:00):
And the only people that are going to be able
to stop this is not necessarily those pointed in office,
but it is us those who send them to the office.
And the silent majority needs to become no longer silent.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Rabbi, I tell you it may not feel right. I'm
telling you from a non Jewish Australian.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
It is not right.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
This country has failed you and your people miserably. You
are Australians. You deserve better than this, and I hope
that this is a catalyst for significant change, not empty words,
but real change.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
I'm so sorry for your loss, and we're so grateful
to have you on the show and in our community.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
You are such a course strength.
Speaker 6 (31:42):
Thank you, thank you very much. Thank you for being
such a great ambassador for truth. And this is the
holiday of Khneka. I want to encourage so many of
your Jewish viewers that we're considering this holiday just to
sort of be a bystander. This is not a time
to stand by. This is the time to take you.
If you don't have a kind of a manura, go
(32:02):
and get one. If you need one, I'll make sure
we send you on. Bring light to the world in
honor of those who could not light to the manura.
This year, we need every little bit of light, a
small little bit of light to spill so much darkness.
That's the message of this holiday. God bless you all.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
God bless you. You're amazing. Thank you, Ebbi.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I'd now like to welcome in a national security analyst
Travis Hawley.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Trav, thank you so so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
What did you make a vision that you've seen thus
far of these two gunmen at the Bondai mass shooting.
Speaker 6 (32:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (32:35):
So, I think when we put this in context, especially
for people who live outside of Australia, people don't really
know in the West that Australia banned most guns back
in around nineteen ninety six after its most tragic mass shooting.
I believe thirty five people were killed then. So this
now stands as the second most deadly fatal mass shooting
(32:57):
in Australia's history and happens to target the Jewish people
on the first night of Hanukkah. So I think for
many of us who have been tracking this globalized into
Fodda movement following October seventh, twenty twenty three, as many
are saying it's tragic but not surprising, I think what
is surprising to many. Again, I'm not an Australian citizen,
(33:19):
as people can tell from my accent. What is surprising though,
is that they had the weapons and the skills to
carry out such a massacre for over ten minutes without
anyone intervening. Whether it was civilians or police, which of
course we'll get into that they eventually did, but for
so much time they were able to just freely shoot
(33:41):
into the crowds in Australia in twenty twenty five is
absolutely shocking.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
When I first saw this vision trave and I was
on my balcony with my seven year old and we
heard the gunshots start and there were just so many,
and you're right, it went on and went on, and
we kind of went straight inside to see some of
the vision come through, and I saw that the two
men with black jackets on the bridge shooting, and I
didn't have the volume up because I didn't want my
little girl to hear. But my first thought, and it
(34:11):
lasted for maybe half an hour, was that these were
police because no one was running around them or or
even close or kind of trying b They looked so calm,
and they looked so competent, and I didn't see panic
or fear or kind of the scattering or some of
the things the attributes I would kind of expect from
(34:35):
someone who hadn't done this before, or you know, clearly
tell me about the style in which they shot, how
much they would have had to have trained. Is it
difficult to hit targets with those kind of weapons? They
were obviously at a height on a bridge.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
I know that area incredibly well.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
It looks down on a kid's playground on a kind
of grassy knoll there.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Right before the beach.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
What did you make of their technique and what would
have gone into the kind of preparation And you know,
we'll find out more about ideology down the track. But
they also again you make the point that don't look scared.
There are reasons for that as well.
Speaker 7 (35:09):
Yeah, this is a very important point. And luckily there
is a lot of video of this, and from the
video you can see that at the very least, the son,
who I believe is twenty four years old, named Navid, I'll.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Tell you their names now, Navid A Crumb twenty four
and Sajid A Crumb fifty father and son.
Speaker 7 (35:28):
So the father and son duo here. At least from
the video of the son, he appeared to be the
most competent and skilled. I actually just posted a video
I came across which was fairly close to him, where
he's using a bolt action rifle. Usually this is done
for hunting, so it's possible that these six firearms just
so people are caught up here. They had six firearms
(35:50):
on them and they were all apparently licensed.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
And yes, one person at six as part of a license.
Speaker 7 (35:56):
These appeared to shotguns and rifles, which would make sense
potentially if they were for license for hunting purposes. And
the way Navid is firing the bolt action rifle is
actually quite impressive. Now we can't see his aim. They
are up on a higher perch, as you mentioned, which
is incredibly strategic if you want to shoot into a
crowd and not get shot.
Speaker 1 (36:18):
Can I off for another word, Travis, Absolutely cowardly, but yes, strategic.
Speaker 7 (36:24):
Yeah, definitely cowardly as well. And they were shooting down
into these crowds with a bolt action rifle and shotguns.
At least Navid was in one of the videos. This
bridge now infamous. And from how quickly is he is shooting,
he is firing, he's essentially making this semi automatic rifle
(36:45):
appeared to be automatic, and how well he is firing it,
so definitely not an amateur. This is not someone who
is brand new to shooting. Potentially we're going to see
maybe they had some type of firing range history or
some hunting history. Having said that, whether it was at
the firing range or hunting, the way he was shooting
this rifle was as automatic as possible, and this is,
(37:09):
you know, to skirt the laws that the West has
about many automatic rifles. So yes, sadly, a very impressive execution,
a part in the language here of how this terrorist
carried it out, and they also found two improvised explosives
on them. This was very professionally and meticulously planned. And
(37:29):
I'm not sure they even thought that how successful they
would be and how much time they would have, because
the speed in which they were firing was extremely rapid,
and they were not intervened for some time. I think
maybe they even themselves may have been surprised how easy
it was to gain this higher ground and to fire NonStop.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
There were some reports, and you know, police are incredibly
brave and they do the kind of job that most
of us would never do. But there were some eyewitness
reports that inferred that police were frozen in you know,
some of them were and not acting who were there.
So we'll wait and let that because that's fair to place.
Let that investigation play out. I want to ask you
(38:12):
about this man who himself, jumped upon one of the
gunmen from behind, kind of wrapped his arms around, managed
to take the shotgun off him, of course, also then
being exposed to the other gunman to turn his attention
to just an act of incredible bravery. I think Donald
Trump has come out and said how courageous it was.
(38:32):
What did you make of that? And how I mean
I might have held a gun once at a range
for a story, I would not have any and I
think most people fall into that category, particularly in Australia.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
You mentioned our guns, they are insane.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
John Howard, the Prime Minister at the time after the
Port Arthur massacre, came in and did a phenomenal job there.
This guy was brave, like what would he have been thinking.
I mean, talk us through that, because it's so hard
to complim.
Speaker 7 (38:59):
What he did was absolutely heroic. Some reports are saying
his name is Ahmed Ahmed. It's unclear, I think, or
unconfirmed what his background entirely was. But what he did
is what a man should do in this position. He
hid behind a car out of the peripheral vision of
the terrorist. I believe it was the father that he
(39:20):
sort of tackled and wrest away the gun for he
waited for his moments so that he didn't you know,
risk his own life too much of a high degree.
He grabbed him from behind and he wrestled away the
rifle seemingly fairly easy, which was just amazing to see.
This is what we needed more of. And sadly, again
(39:41):
I'm not here to judge as much, but I will
say the amount of time that went on with no
one intervening, including the police, is unacceptable. This world right now,
particularly in this assassination culture and explosion of his Slamist terrorism,
needs more of again, if this is his real name,
Metal Ahmed, we need more of those people who will
(40:02):
jump in and intervene and risk their own life because
this is what we learned from Columbine back in the
nineties that during mass shootings, you don't wait. You swarm
in with as many people as possible, and you might
even get harmed in the process. I believe Ahmed al
Ahmed has two wounds, one in his arm and one
(40:22):
it is his hand. I believe gunshot wounds. I could
be incorrect and was in surgery. And that's what a
man does, and that's what a society that does not
put up with terrorism. Does is we need to rush
in sooner because there needs to be a deterrent and
we need to send a signal that terrorism will not
be watched upon until the police come. We cannot rely
(40:45):
on our police in the West. That is very clear.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Absolutely, Travis, your insights are incredible. Thank you so so much.
I know that you also do the most phenomenal work
when you look into who these people are, their online footprint,
past behaviors in the digital space and elsewhere. I'd love
to get you back on later in the week. I
know there's too many shootings for you to keep up with,
and this is very fresh. I'd love to get you
(41:10):
back on after you have a chance to look at
at anything, if anything exists online with these guys. Definitely,
thank you, really appreciate that. Thank thank you for everything
you do. And if people want to follow your work,
please tell us where they can just.
Speaker 7 (41:22):
Check out on any social media talk to trave the
number ta LK number two trave And despite the horrific
start to Honkah, I still want to wish all the
Jewish people out there happy Hanukkah. Do your best to stay.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Strong, beautifully said, Thank you so much. Thank you, ladies
and gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. For
I mean, it's not a very special episode. I wish
it was an episode that we that we'd never have
to do. But here we are tomorrow. I've got an
incredible guest, an Australian, Australian citizen, a Muslim Man. They
(41:57):
call him the Imam of Peace, and I tell you
what he has got a message for anyone who mentions the.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
Word is Lamophobia that you need to hear. Thank you
so much.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
If you enjoyed this episode, if you found it valuable,
and when I say enjoy in an informative way, please
share it. Please please share it as widely as possible.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Again.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
I'll see you tomorrow morning, six am ET.
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