June 9, 2022 • 45 mins
Sometimes in the midst of a personal event, an objective opinion is beneficial. On this episode, Brian consults two experts on mental health and familial health in order to discern the potential roots of the mystery. Is it medical? Spiritual? Listen to find out.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
We never heard from him again.
S2 (00:02):
No letter, no call.
S3 (00:04):
No contact. That's very possible that I played a leading
role in what happened here.
S2 (00:08):
We got to satisfy one. Five seven.
S1 (00:13):
This is it. I think it's an incredible story. I
guess I kept wondering why everybody didn't address the elephant
in the room.
S2 (00:21):
I'm Brian Donlon, and this is the grandfather effect. Hey there.
It's Brian. I want to hit pause on this episode
to ask you for two quick favors. First. Don't forget
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(00:41):
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(01:01):
Dawg slash grandfather. Thanks. Let's get back to the episode.
Let's just launch into this with having you help laymen
Brian here understand what medically is Alzheimer's.
S3 (01:16):
Well, Alzheimer's disease is one type of dementia and sometimes
we conflate the terms. But dementia is our term for
cognitive impairment that impairs one's ability to function daily. And
Alzheimer's disease is the primary cause or the leading cause.
And what actually happens is there are something called neurofibrillary
(01:43):
tangles that occur in the brain for reasons we don't
fully understand. But essentially these nonfunctioning deposits start to take
over brain cells, and so the functional part of the
brain starts to diminish, and that causes an overall decline
(02:04):
in the brain's functioning. In terms of how that looks, practically,
it starts with memory and and cognitive processing. And so
that's usually the first thing we think about is people
who are becoming more forgetful and having more difficulty with
daily tasks like driving and cooking and other important things.
(02:25):
But then it also starts to impact other functions, even
the ability to walk and eat and use the bathroom
and those important daily activities.
S2 (02:34):
Does it affect personality in any way or is it
primarily associated with memories and body functions?
S3 (02:39):
The trend that I tend to see is one of
two things. One can have more of a aggressive acting out,
or one can sometimes just become very much more reserved.
And when you think about what's happening, one of the
tragedies is, you know, something's wrong, especially in the early stages,
(03:01):
but you can't put a finger on it. Others around
you may be able to see, but because of the
nature of the disease, you can't process your own illness.
And so it's very frustrating. Maybe somebody who was very
highly functional now is being told, you know, you can't drive,
we can't leave you alone by yourself. You maybe can't
understand why that is. And so one reaction is often
(03:25):
to kind of act out and maybe be belligerent. Another
reaction is just to kind of withdraw from the world.
And those are two of the common things that I see.
S2 (03:35):
Is there any sort of awareness by the individual with
Alzheimer's that their memory is fading, or are they not
that self-aware as it goes?
S3 (03:44):
By definition, they become less and less self-aware. And so
maybe in the beginning you notice that something's wrong and
you may even be able to do some things to compensate.
And I sometimes have patients who come in and the
family members saying, you know, we think something's wrong, but
we're not totally sure because this person has been very
(04:06):
good at compensating, you know, doing adaptive behaviors like writing
things down, leaving notes for themselves, etc.. But then when
we do an actual mental status exam, we sometimes refer
to it as the mini mental status exam. It's like
a 30 point question we will ask in the clinic.
A normal result may be 2728, and they score at
(04:27):
an 18. And the person can't believe. This person has
no idea what day of the week it is or
what what season it is outside. They're they're very disoriented
and yet they're still able to, you know, function at
some level. But, yes, as the disease progresses, one really
becomes less and less aware of one's self. Social interactions
(04:49):
can still take place, but it becomes much more of
a minute to minute and moment to moment type of
existence because you're not retaining what's happening even a few
minutes before the short term memory is really affected. And
when you think about how we function day to day life,
you know, the thing we're doing right now is often
(05:09):
based on what happened just a few minutes ago, and
if you can't even remember what happened a few minutes ago,
it's very frustrating and it really becomes a more reactionary
type of existence.
S2 (05:21):
So you're saying it primarily impacts one's short term memory?
S3 (05:24):
That is true. So the long term memory tends to
be preserved longer. I see patients who can, you know,
sing along every verse of their favorite hymn, but they
can't tell you what they had for breakfast. So there
is a damage to what's known as executive functioning. So
the brain's ability to process new information, take that in
(05:46):
and then make a plan of action. And that is
one of the things that is harmed first. And so, yes,
it's very difficult to take in any new information and
retain it.
S2 (05:57):
Is there a way to know what typical progression of
the disease in terms of years someone would be able
to live with this disorder?
S3 (06:05):
There really is no typical progression per se, but the
average lifespan for Alzheimer's dementia, once diagnosis is made, is
about seven years. But that can vary widely among patients.
We are getting better at picking up the disease earlier
(06:26):
and so the life expectancy is increasing. But I think
part of that is related to the fact that we're
picking it up earlier. Part of it is also related
to some of the treatments that are available. There are
some medications that can help somebody prolong some of their
cognitive functioning once it is diagnosed. But there's, I would say,
(06:47):
one of my biggest pieces of advice to family members
or or people who themselves might be facing some memory
difficulties or noticing that something's wrong is pleased to go
get checked out and talk to the doctor. I think
a lot of people are very scared of this disease
and they don't want to know that something's going on.
But the earlier we know something, the earlier we might
(07:08):
be able to intervene.
S2 (07:10):
Is there a way some you would and I know
you can't diagnose. Trust me, but. Is it possible the
guy could have because of Alzheimer's, missed two birthdays?
S3 (07:19):
I would say that's very possible. And if he was
somebody who was very routine about it before and now,
suddenly for no other apparent reason, that's a very possible
that that was the that played a leading role in
what happened. And that's the very thing I was talking
about earlier, that someone who once was good at a
(07:43):
particular activity or a particular routine now suddenly misfiring, so
to speak, that is the earliest sign typically of Alzheimer's disease.
And it's something that, you know, you were used to
seeing somebody able to do, and now they suddenly can't.
And it can be small, subtle things like, yeah, missing
(08:04):
a birthday. That's actually a very good example.
S2 (08:07):
Is it even possible, though, if if he passed away
in 92 of the disease, that that many years earlier,
possibly ten years earlier, you'd see signs of this?
S3 (08:15):
Sure. Because, as I said, there's a wide variation in
terms of the progression. Barring some other event that leads
to someone demise, if someone is generally otherwise healthy, they
don't have, you know, bad heart disease or a bad diabetes, etc..
People can live longer than ten years after the diagnosis
(08:36):
of Alzheimer's.
S2 (08:37):
I'm trying to be overly generous in my possibilities for
what took place there. Is it possible he even forgot?
That my dad sent him a letter.
S3 (08:46):
I can't rule it out. Yeah, I can't rule it out.
I can't rule out the possibility that he couldn't process
everything that was being said in the letter. Or one possibility.
And I've seen cases like this. Sometimes the response to
not being able to fully process something is to lash
out or to withdraw. Maybe this was just such a
(09:09):
difficult thing for him to comprehend that he just didn't
know what to do. He didn't know how to act
or how to respond. I'll mention one other thing and
often the reaction. I can see it as this is
is anger. At first in the earliest stages, I wouldn't
put it out of the realm of possibility that when
your grandfather got that letter from your father, there may
(09:31):
have been a sort of how dare you tell me
that I had forgotten this birthday type of reaction then.
So there may have been an angry response.
S2 (09:42):
One of the scarier things I determined just recently for
my uncle was that he told me a story about
my grandfather driving to a place, as you describe before,
that he'd been at many times, and he got lost
and he needed help finding his way. And he thinks
that may have been in the late 1970s. How long
have you heard patients able to function in the facade,
(10:04):
that it's just periods of dementia like live on their
own before people really realize they need help?
S3 (10:09):
Oh, sometimes. Sometimes years. Yeah. Especially, as I said, somebody
who's used to living by themselves. They can manage things well.
They may have a little blip like that. And at
that point, if he had gotten lost, he's still had
enough wits about him to put some things in place
to make sure that never happened again. You know, and
so people come up with compensatory mechanisms to survive. And
(10:32):
I don't necessarily like to use percentages, but let's say
that what we consider normal is 100%. Well, now you're
functioning at 85%. You can put things in place to
make sure that you don't make a critical mistake. But
as that percentage goes further and further down, you lose
the ability to make those judgments and compensations. But it's
(10:54):
very possible that he had some small changes occurring and
there was no way to know about it. And he
was able to compensate for.
S2 (11:01):
Years because that could be a 10 to 15 year span.
And you're saying that's not out of the realm of
possibility for how the disease works.
S3 (11:08):
There are cases where we diagnose 20 years before someone's
death and he may have been in the category of
something we call mild cognitive impairment. So it's not full
blown Alzheimer's disease, but there are changes that are not
normal and that we would not just attribute to normal
aging things like just forgetting names and numbers. That's a
(11:32):
common thing that people freak out about. But that's normal aging.
But mild cognitive impairment can impair things like driving, paying
your bills on time, you know, remembering birthdays. So he
may have been in that category at that time. And,
you know, that far back, we knew much less than
we know now. And there wouldn't have necessarily been a
(11:52):
way to uncover it in the early eighties.
S2 (11:55):
Any final words of wisdom for me on this mystery
in terms of your experience.
S3 (11:59):
In terms of your particular case? I think it's really
a fascinating story and a sad one in that, you know,
I'm sorry about the the broken relationship there, but I
think it now that we know a lot more about
what sounds to me like the beginnings of dementia that
were happening that probably impacted all of this. It's an
(12:21):
opportunity for Grace to think back on, you know, what
happened to.
S2 (12:32):
Food. In order to sort all this out, I had
to shift away from research and meta analysis. It was
time for outside expertise. My dear friend and mentor Nancy
Kane is a professor, author and licensed professional clinical counselor.
She graciously agreed to listen to everything you've heard so
(12:53):
far and record a pro-bono counseling session of sorts. Hey, Nancy,
it's Brian.
S1 (13:01):
Hi there.
S2 (13:01):
Right. And so, just so you know, I'm recording the
whole thing, but we're just hanging out like friends.
S1 (13:05):
Okay.
S2 (13:07):
So what's your overall reaction?
S1 (13:09):
I think a number of things. One, I was I
think it's an incredible story. I guess I kept wondering
why everybody didn't address the elephant in the room. You know,
why why was there a cut off and why was
there like this obvious, like, unknowns? And it seemed like
from your uncle to your parents, there's this sense of
(13:31):
it being okay to have silence.
S2 (13:34):
Explain that more.
S1 (13:36):
So I got the impression that your dad hadn't been
in a whole lot of contact with his brother and
that that somehow was okay, as well as on the reverse.
Your uncle having this resentment towards his brother and you know,
him saying, oh, well, my bad. But clearly it wasn't
bad enough for him to do something about it.
S2 (13:56):
Yeah. What do you make of that? Because to me,
that's like from another universe. And yet the both of
them just seem like, woops. Sorry.
S1 (14:06):
But that usually gets set up by the parents. And
so I think that I wouldn't be surprised if your
grandpa in the demeanor that people would talk about him
was pretty shut down. So the norm became in the
family or we just there's just we just don't talk
about things that really matter.
S2 (14:25):
And so when you've encountered that, is there usually a
desire in people to have those conversations or the lack
of communication creates even a lack of desire for it?
S1 (14:36):
I think it's more of the norm. We're not going
to go to anything uncomfortable. Like we want peace above
everything else. And so if it means that there might
be some harsh words or there might be some hard feelings,
or we just won't go there.
S2 (14:52):
I guess it's difficult to understand in one sense. But
then in another, finding out my grandfather didn't ask about
us for a decade once. I guess that makes sense, right?
S1 (15:02):
Yeah. And also, when it comes to family systems, there
is to oversimplify, there's two types of family systems. Well,
there's three there's healthy family systems where everyone can go
to see that they're vulnerable, that they're engaged in relationships.
And then there's disengage where the norm is. We're not
(15:24):
going to get that close and we're not really going
to expect much from anybody. The third one is the
enmeshed family system. So everybody's into everybody's face like they're like,
why didn't you show up for work in July and
you should have brought the potatoes and you didn't. And
so it looks like everybody's into this close relationship, but
it's really based on this heavy expectation that everyone should
(15:44):
show up and be present. But once everybody gets into
the room, there's not a whole lot of intimacy. It's
all about expectation.
S2 (15:52):
So you would put us in that second category, then disengaged.
S1 (15:57):
So everybody in a disengaged family, everybody is very appropriate.
There's no conflict and pleasantries, but there isn't a whole
lot of emotional engagement. So to your point, we had
senior cousins in years, but nobody talks about that because
that's the norm is well, we're just we're not going
(16:18):
to ever say anything that's uncomfortable or may cause hard
feelings or address hard feelings because that's just the taboo
and mashed family. Well, it gets it gets set up
with people not wanting to go to vulnerability. It's just
too risky. And it's too uncomfortable. And it means that
(16:40):
some things are going to have to come out of
the skeletons will have to be addressed in the closets,
that it's just better to leave them alone.
S2 (16:49):
Yeah. And you know, what I find out, too, is
that my brother and I have other family that we've
been very close to from my mom's side. And my
cousins have other family on their mom's side they're very
close to. But we all just see this mystery of
each other. And it all stems from, I think, our
dad's silence from unspoken hurt. But then ultimately, can you
point the finger at my grandfather for that?
S1 (17:10):
It probably is a generational thing. My hunch is, is that,
you know, if if you were able to unpack it,
it would be. His father had a certain demeanor. His father,
you know, that there would be this demeanor that was
passed down through the generations.
S2 (17:24):
So can you psychoanalyze my grandpa yet or not?
S1 (17:27):
Well, I think that he he was probably emotionally shut down.
You know, apart from the Alzheimer's, he the way that
they were describing him, very detailed and organized. And whereas
his was that his brother was more flamboyant out there.
That actor.
S2 (17:44):
Yes.
S1 (17:44):
So it's not uncommon family systems for people to play
a certain role. So it sounds like he picked up
on the role of being the responsible details organized. But
in all that, not having a whole lot of affect man.
And so then then communicating that to the rest of
the family of like how do you get close to
someone who doesn't have a whole lot of emotional wherewithal?
(18:07):
You can't it's like it's like bonding with a computer.
S2 (18:13):
So how does one become that way? I mean, it
doesn't sound like you're saying that my grandfather likely was
intentional and malicious about it. It just was a consequence
of what his upbringing or just his personality type.
S1 (18:25):
It was probably related to his his attachment or lack
of attachment to his mother, because we learn our emotional
well-being and our sense of vibrancy emotionally from our that
first bonding with our parents, with specifically our mother. But
if there is some kind of breakdown in that attachment,
(18:45):
then the child the child will go to a shut
down place. It's called avoidant attachment, which is I shouldn't
I don't have any needs and I shouldn't have any needs,
nor should I expect anything from anybody else, either emotionally.
So they live in to the world with this. Again,
pleasant but not a whole lot of vibrancy. The world
(19:08):
is more black and white or shades of gray and
not colors of the rainbow.
S2 (19:14):
I see. I have a hard time even processing that
reality because it's so antithetical to how I operate. So
do you encounter many people in your practice like that?
S1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's not uncommon, and I think that generally people
like that marry people that are pretty emotionally vibrant to compensate.
S2 (19:33):
So then you aren't even entirely surprised by that recording
I found of my grandmother in the early seventies when
she's just all mushy, gushy, affectionate. It doesn't surprise you,
but based on your experience with people like my grandfather.
S1 (19:46):
Right, that when I heard that, I thought, of course,
she's she's playing the emotional role for both of them.
We've shut down and she's back in and I'm sure
I of good intentions covering the emotional wherewithal for both
of them in terms of that aspect.
S2 (20:03):
So then would you expect when she dies prematurely to
have the relationship between father and son just fall apart?
Is that typical?
S1 (20:11):
Yep. Yep. It is. Well, is that typical? But it's
not it's not surprising either, because he would have had
to make the choice at that point. Can I come
up to the plate, really engage with my children in
a way that's helpful for them, meaningful for them, as
well as for me. My hunch is he made a
(20:31):
decision long time ago that he was going to go there.
S2 (20:34):
So how how intentional can I understand that to be?
Or is it that he didn't have the capability to
be that person when his wife died?
S1 (20:42):
Decisions like that are made a long time before that
event happens. So when it happened, it just kind of sealed.
It's just sealed it in terms of how he was
going to be in his world. So there's always the
choice of the well, yes, there's temperament. Yes, there's, you know, genetics.
(21:03):
But a person always has the capability to choose compassion,
to choose love, to choose relationships, and conversely, to choose
that relationship, to shut down, to not care. And in
the family system that you describe, it would have been
okay for him to do that because no one would
(21:23):
have said, hey, why are you, you know, why haven't
you called? Or because the family systems norms were you
don't go there.
S2 (21:31):
And he never would communicate like that anyway. I guess so.
S1 (21:35):
Right. So both brothers would have had a sense of
the dad of, of probably being pleasant, but just not,
not emotionally engaged, not really there for and the mother really, again,
filling up the room with her heart and her compassion.
So in a lot of ways, he didn't have to
do anything.
S2 (21:56):
And, you know, I, I try to understand in my
own mind how a guy goes, though, for a decade
without once asking about his his grandsons and his son.
What can you even begin to understand? What's going on there?
Is it he's forgotten here? Because I know Alzheimer's play
(22:16):
some role in this. But there's part of me that
says Alzheimer's played a strong role in his memory. And
yet at the same time, there's no way he can
get a pass for never even saying, hey, how are
my grandsons if you talk to him or right.
S1 (22:28):
But but the picture is this is generations. So this
is generations of a particular norm that if there's anything risky,
you just don't go there. So even him asking could
have been risky business of getting a response back of Michael.
Why are you asking or you know, you're asking now
(22:48):
for him maybe being afraid that he asked and then
suddenly this unleashes a whole nother conversation that he's not
interested in.
S2 (22:55):
So it's not that he wasn't thinking about it, right?
S1 (22:58):
I'm sure he was thinking about it just by the
very fact that it's his father. Like he would have memories.
He would have some level of attachment to his sons,
but not enough emotional capacity because of his choices to
really reach out.
S2 (23:17):
So there I mean, that sounds painful to me, but
I guess I know how to communicate emotion. So is
that a painful thing for someone like that?
S1 (23:24):
No, because it's it's actually it's a numbing out. It's
a it's making a lot of decisions in a particular
direction just to numb out, to not feel the feelings
anymore and then put some kind of rationale around it. Well,
they're grown adults. Well, life moves on. Well, they don't
really care anyway. You know, it doesn't make that much difference.
(23:47):
A lot of that kind of thing that eventually you
wake up and you don't have relationships anymore except the
one that he maintained on some level with his one time.
And why almost sounds like his son was really active
in pursuing him.
S2 (24:03):
Yes. And they live close together, which is part of
it I think. But yeah, he was active in pursuing. Mm.
So am I accurate in calling it a discernment, Nancy,
or is this something else.
S1 (24:14):
I think that that would be fair is a discernment.
I think that there is. The other part too that
I wondered about is is whether there was something about
your dad that triggered something in him that yeah, Alzheimer's, dementia,
but there is something about their relationship that just wasn't
pleasant for him on some level. And again, it's a
(24:37):
mystery because the whole family system was you don't talk
about anything that's uncomfortable, so you'll never really know. You're
always left kind of looking between the lines and trying
to develop hypotheses.
S2 (24:50):
Yeah, and that's been my journey this whole time, because
if you met my dad, he's not a trigger kind
of guy, just really affable and kind and he's quiet.
But I can't even imagine how he'd be a trigger.
S1 (25:03):
But it could be. And that's what triggers that, the
irrationality of triggers. It could be that he reminded him.
Maybe your grandfather looked at your dad and thought, he
reminds me too much of myself, or there's something about
him that reminds me of myself that I don't particularly
care for. And again, because he's not doing any emotional work,
not really looking to resolve it or going to personal
(25:26):
reflection to resolve it, to grow, to become a a
fuller person. Withdrawal in relationship is just as violent as
open hostility. And that's the part that I think that
you were feeling is like my sense is, is that
you were expressing like, how could someone do this? It's
just as violent as an open assault.
S2 (25:49):
Well, yeah, I it's one of those things that just
eats at you for a long time. It's like, how
in the world does this happen? How in the world
does a guy over a birthday card just ignore his grandkids?
S1 (26:00):
Right. And hearing the physician talk about Alzheimer's. Sure. You
can forget with Alzheimer's. And that could it could have
been started way back then. But it's also indicative of
some larger things that were already in place in his
personality that he was just continuing to play out.
S2 (26:19):
So if you could supernaturally get, you know, my brother
and I in the same room and my uncle and
my parents and my grandfather. Is it even possible to
fix these family dynamics?
S1 (26:31):
Oh, sure. But it has to be it doesn't have
to be on everybody's part, a willingness to come together
and take responsibility. It couldn't be like we're just going
to talk about this, because what will happen in that
kind of family system is that the people default to
the again, the norms. I'm not going to say the
hard things. I won't go to uncomfortable places. So in
(26:53):
that light, then, no, nothing will happen. But if everyone's
willing to come in the sense of everyone taking personal
responsibility for their part in terms of how the relationships
have not grown, have not been resolved, and being willing
to hear the hard things.
S2 (27:12):
Yeah. That sounds almost like an instant insurmountable mountain, you know,
for a guy that that never asked about his son
for a decade to suddenly start talking about things that matter,
you know?
S1 (27:23):
Right. Right. And in again, those choices, like with your
uncle saying, yeah, I've had resentment towards your dad. It's like, well,
why didn't you press into this when it was really happening? Like,
how much did you really care about your brother to
really sit down and say the hard things? Because I
(27:45):
care and I am feeling hurt and I do want
a relationship. I want to talk about these things. Help
me understand why you weren't there. Help me understand. Can
you understand why I would feel hurt? Those are really
hard conversations that given how your grampa modeled, there wasn't
any map to be able to walk through that.
S2 (28:06):
Okay. Yeah, because I was wondering if it's a reflection
of being capable, not willing.
S1 (28:11):
No, I think it's always willing. I think it's always
a willing, because if they're adults, they're always that it's you.
And but you can make particular choices and a singular
direction and end up being incapable. Meaning if someone keeps
choosing to be resentful towards some day after day after day,
(28:33):
at one point they wake up and they're they're past
the point of any real redemption because they've found their
they've become so hardened in their ways. That's not beyond
the the redemption of God, but on a human level,
I think that the more we make choices in a
particular direction, more we create a pathway that look like
they're incapable, but it's because of those choices that they made.
S2 (28:57):
So you've seen people with with bad modeling from their
parents and very little communication with that same family system.
Break through and talk about hard things and heal.
S1 (29:08):
Yes. And I think that that's God's invitation to everyone
is that that you look in the scriptures and there
is clearly God's redemptive hand in family systems, whether you
look at David's or Abraham. And there are choices that
people can make in that family system to be to
redeem what sin has done damage in the family system.
(29:31):
So take my husband, for example. He's the third generation
adult male. He's the first generation of men that haven't
been an alcoholic in four generations. His dad, oldest son,
died of alcoholism. His grandfather alcoholic, died in Skid Row
in Chicago. His father, alcoholic, again, all the firstborn son alcoholics.
(29:57):
But Ray Ray has really felt raised in a lot
of work with saying looking at the profile of the
alcoholism as well as looking at. What I was inviting
him to in saying that my generation.
S2 (30:12):
So if you were to give my dad and his
brother advice on how to repair their broken relationship, how
do they go about doing that?
S1 (30:20):
Well, I think they would need to sit down with
someone like a therapist who can be an objective person.
But first, they would have to be prepped with self-reflection
on both of their parts of what did they think
about their growing up, what they think about their dad,
what's their experience of their family, their journey growing up?
(30:41):
And that personal reflection has to start because I sense
there hasn't been a lot of of, again, that deeper
reflection on story and their own journey. And some of
this is generational that in that generation's war or before
it is what it is, you know, they don't need
to really think about it just is. Now, in order
(31:03):
to grow you, you're going to have to think about it.
S2 (31:05):
Yeah. You know, my parents said that regularly and a
lot of audio I didn't include. It was the well,
you know, when we were kids, parents didn't hang out
with their children. This was the way it was for
everyone in their families. Have you seen that generationally or
is this unique and maybe my Scandinavian background or something?
S1 (31:21):
I've seen it generationally, but I've also seen it more
so in the Scandinavian. Because again, you've got that heavy
cultural norm that says, we're always going to be closer.
So if you have something unpleasant, it's not acceptable because
we're going to be present there. Behind that pleasantry is
a lot of judgment.
S2 (31:41):
Man. I've always wondered if it's a Scandinavian thing, because
you're right. They're kind of Minnesota. Nice. Everything's great. We
all like each other is clearly a facade because not
everyone likes each other and everyone has issues.
S1 (31:55):
Right.
S2 (31:56):
But I guess even generationally raising kids in the fifties
wasn't there was some of somewhat of a cultural reality
like that, too, outside of Scandinavians.
S1 (32:05):
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But out of that generation
was born the whole A and Al-Anon because of people
like with Ray's scenario dying of alcoholism and a movement
was like, well, now we've got to we've got to
address these things. We've got to look at what's fueling this.
(32:29):
It's not just, well, oh, so-and-so is. That's just the
way it is. No, that's not just the way he is.
That's the choices he's made. But why did he make
those choices? There is something with generation, but I also
think then you add to that the Scandinavian culture and
the lack of value for reflection. And his his choice
(32:51):
was painful. It was just painful. And it's set in
motion for you, a certain perception of your grandpa, a
certain perception probably of the family system, that because of that,
now you're asking the deeper questions and looking for redemption.
I think we're always looking for redemption. Whereas whereas God
(33:11):
wanted to redeem the family and redeem the family system
and redeem individuals from that.
S2 (33:16):
Yeah, and that's been my heart. I think one of
the threads and you know, the tapestry of most of
my life has been this intense desire for family, a reconciliation.
I've worked with my wife and some of her family
on that, and I want to believe that's biblical because
I feel like, you know, Christ is, of course, reconciling
us to God. His is his heart for reconciliation and
(33:39):
family as well.
S1 (33:40):
Absolutely. Without a doubt. You know, back to his journey.
I mean, the work that he did individually affected everybody
in the family system for those that were willing to grow.
And I and I don't know, we'll see an eternity.
The impact of the personal work that he did that
affected that we can't see that affected the entire system.
S2 (34:01):
So how does Rae get through that, though? I mean,
there's a lot of pain and unanswered questions for him.
And I you know, I wanted this to be some
sort of easy answer. I laughed, thinking, hey, it'd be
great if he was just a jerk because then I could,
you know, dismiss it and go, Well, he was a jerk.
But it seems much more complicated than that. And I've
walked away maybe with more questions than answers. So how
do I process through this as a follower of Christ
(34:23):
who's looking for to find forgiveness and peace and love?
S1 (34:28):
The question still begs what? What would you need to
be able to let the pain go and to really forgive?
But I also think that you're looking at the complexity
of the human heart. The sin disintegrates. And crisis in
the process of integrating us and so with your grandpa
than had had its effect on him from I'm sure
(34:50):
a mother that wasn't maybe that compassion or caring to
who knows what happened to her with her mother too.
We could take that all the way back. And that's
the impact of sin on people, on family systems, on generations,
but also the the complexity of the choice of the
well that God will never override our choices to not love.
(35:15):
To not care to to numb ourselves and turn away
from him in our own selfishness and self-centered. Now, that
appears more peaceful. Really, it's not. It's not peace in
the long run. It's. It's it's a lack of peace.
It's a lack of life. So you're your grandpa. It
is a complex situation. Was he a jerk now? But
(35:40):
then he also chose not to love in a way
that was radical and meaningful. Well, that's very significant. It's
just dressed up in a way that doesn't look so violent.
S2 (35:51):
Maybe that's why.
S1 (35:52):
Someone I think does. Because you're left going well. He
behaved pleasant. So what's the problem? Well, the problem is
pleasant isn't love. Pleasant is, you know, is if I'm
describing it with your grandpa, it's more itself soothing. It's
it's safe. It's it's not really engaging. Love always enters
(36:15):
in and looks towards the benefit of the other person.
Always looks beyond one's own interests for the interests of
other people.
S2 (36:21):
So how do I? I feel like I'm closer to
forgiveness and peace. And I'm starting to feel that like
how much my grandfather missed out with not being with
my brother and me and my dad and my mom.
But how do I come to that heart level of forgiveness?
Not just that I forgive you intellectually.
S1 (36:40):
I think the more you'll understand the choice, the the
impact of a lack of love. He. He was the
way he was because he wasn't loved. Well, and then
his response not being love well and his choice not
to engage Christ into that becoming whole. But he I'm
(37:02):
sure he had a level of emotional suffering that was
a result of what he didn't get in his own childhood.
That's sad. Yeah, but he would have to grow up
and be one dimensional, so to speak. But again, it
doesn't just miss his choices, but I think that we
have to then go to God. He's all of that.
(37:25):
And so the more I can see that in my
own self, the more mercy I can extend somebody else.
If I don't see that, that if I feel like
I've made all kinds of great choices and I've loved
well and I've done that when someone hurts me, it's
much easier then to say, Oh, well, that's, that's inexcusable
because I, I work really hard at life. Well, no,
(37:47):
I don't. I, I've screwed up a lot in my
life and not loved well and been self-centered and been
selfish and and seen God continue to extend his love
towards me. And so and the older I get, the
more I see that, the more I see how much
I've been forgiven from, the more I can extend that
(38:10):
to other people.
S2 (38:11):
And that's kind of where I've gotten to at this
point in that I've come to realize that the life
that I'm describing, his relationship with my dad and me
happened at an age decades away right now from where
I am. And it's a bit overwhelming to think that
my grandchildren could make a podcast about me in in
(38:31):
50 years that based on even my current behavior in
my and things I've done already that are wrong, they
could make a pretty horrible picture of me too.
S1 (38:40):
Right. Right.
S2 (38:41):
So then how do I honor him in that type
of reflection? Because I don't want take away for anyone
that was listening to this to be, wow, that guy's
grandpa was a first class jerk.
S1 (38:52):
Well, I think that that I think that there may
be room for more digging. You know, of of getting
more information from your uncle and from Marshall. But to
be able to get the full, fuller picture of what
did he do that was impactful? Marshall Seems like he
had a a sense of that. Just even that little
(39:13):
vignette about buying a used Cadillac every year, will that
tell you about him? And I think you're going to
have to get a fuller picture because right now seems
like you have a half of the picture.
S2 (39:24):
Yeah.
S1 (39:24):
I mean, how much more do you need to understand
about the family system, family tree that he grew up
in that can inform you about him? That, again, you're
going to get the larger picture.
S2 (39:34):
I can say I know he served in World War Two,
not in combat, but you stationed in England for four years.
And I did discover in the midst of this that
his dad's Oscar, his dad died in 1937, in June,
I believe, of 37. Well, Oscar's dad died just six
(39:55):
months earlier. So my grandfather lost his grandfather and his
dad within six months of each other. And he was
in his twenties when he lost them both. And had
to totally shift gears for his life, where his brother,
Marshall Senior, was a professional musician in California. They both
had to drop everything or take over the business. And
(40:17):
my thinking is that probably was a pretty traumatic experience
for him in his twenties.
S1 (40:21):
And it's not uncommon for someone to have that level
of trauma and then just shut down and say Life
is too overwhelming. I'm not. I'm going to shut my
heart down. I'm not going to go there anymore. I'm
just going to do the next thing because I don't
know what to do with this amount of pain.
S2 (40:39):
Yeah. My my dad's cousin Marshall indicated that my grandfather
changed a lot in 75 when his wife died at
age 60. That can really hurt people, too. Right. I mean,
in terms of shutting down emotionally when your wife dies.
S1 (40:51):
Right. And my hunch is, like I was saying earlier,
my hunch is she she completed him like everything that
he wasn't becoming. She was doing it. You know, she
was sharing compassion. She was reaching out to people. She
was always the party in a good way. And so
she leaves now it's again, he's having to face all
the things he didn't become. And again, what it would
(41:15):
be not uncommon for someone to say, I just can't
do this anymore.
S2 (41:22):
It wouldn't be a fair counseling session without doing some self-examination.
So I asked her to turn her attention to me.
S1 (41:32):
From the beginning, I was asking myself the question, Why
is Bryan so invested in this? What is the payoff
for him personally and what is he looking for? Is
he looking for on behalf of his family? And then
if that's the case, then why? Because no one's asking
him to do this. Or is he? Are you looking
(41:54):
at it for yourself? And then again, why? What is
it with unresolved in you?
S2 (42:01):
Help me understand what that could be, because I wish
I had an answer right away. And maybe it's a
reflection of my life, many of my family. But I
don't know if I can give you a direct answer yet.
S1 (42:11):
And I think that's okay. I think I think I
can't answer that. And I think it's okay that you
don't know right now.
S2 (42:20):
How do I find out?
S1 (42:20):
Give us enough truth. Well, God will give us truth
as we're able to handle it. But I think asking
those questions, what's driving me on this? Where's the intensity?
What's painful? What's my outcome that I'm looking for? What's
my investment in that? Being reflective on all those levels
leads you to some understanding of truth.
S2 (42:42):
And see, I know there's pain there because I've always
had an underlying level of pain that I had to grandfathers.
And that was rejected by both one personally, one from
a distance. But I'm not certain what I want to
get out of finding out why the one from a
distance rejected I guess me is the is one. But
all of us but me in particular, I don't know
(43:03):
that I have a Y, Nancy. I do know there's
pain there. I can tell you that.
S1 (43:07):
But what did you conclude about the pain? What did
you conclude about? About yourself with the pain?
S2 (43:13):
What's to make me sound needy? I can tell you that.
Need for acceptance, need for outward expressions of love, perhaps.
S1 (43:24):
I think it's more than that. I think. I think
you have to ask. There's a decision you made about
that rejection that you're looking to resolve, that you that
there's something about that decision that is driving you. I
don't think you're getting to the decision. What did you
decide about yourself as a little boy? That rejection set
something in motion. You.
S2 (43:44):
Goodness. Isn't this where you give me the answer? I
want to have an answer to that question because that's
one of those deeper level things that could be blocking
intimacy with Christ. For me.
S1 (43:57):
Intimacy her Christ, as well as not perpetuating this generational pattern.
S2 (44:02):
So. So what is it?
S1 (44:05):
Yeah, I can't tell you. I don't know.
S2 (44:09):
Well, I don't know either. It feels to me like
I set out to find answers about why my grandfather
disowned me. And I find myself with more questions and
now more convictions. But I feel opened to the realities
of mental illness and generational patterns. And talking to Dr.
Fisher about Alzheimer's. My heart's broken by how that could
(44:31):
have played a role in my grandfather's life. And talking
with Nancy Kane. I realize that other issues are at
play here, issues that I'm the victim of and the
perpetrator of in a long lineage of familial ness. So
what does all this mean about my grandfather? About me?
(44:54):
I pray that this conviction can turn into action. This
fog into clarity and this story into something that can
be redeemed. Maybe this journey wasn't the spirit pushing me
towards clarity, but towards conviction. Maybe the story wasn't about
my grandfather at all. Maybe it was about me. About
(45:18):
all of us. Listen next week to the final episode
of The Grandfather of Fact, where we'll end our story,
where it all began.
We never heard from him again.
S2 (00:02):
No letter, no call.
S3 (00:04):
No contact. That's very possible that I played a leading
role in what happened here.
S2 (00:08):
We got to satisfy one. Five seven.
S1 (00:13):
This is it. I think it's an incredible story. I
guess I kept wondering why everybody didn't address the elephant
in the room.
S2 (00:21):
I'm Brian Donlon, and this is the grandfather effect. Hey there.
It's Brian. I want to hit pause on this episode
to ask you for two quick favors. First. Don't forget
to subscribe to and follow this podcast so you never
miss an episode. And second, would you consider sharing the
(00:41):
grandfather effect with a few of your friends? You know,
word of mouth marketing is the best thing out there.
And if you like what you hear, we'd be so
grateful for you to help us spread the word about
the grandfather effect. Tell your friends to find out more
information at Moody Radio Dawgs slash grandfather. Again, Moody Radio
(01:01):
Dawg slash grandfather. Thanks. Let's get back to the episode.
Let's just launch into this with having you help laymen
Brian here understand what medically is Alzheimer's.
S3 (01:16):
Well, Alzheimer's disease is one type of dementia and sometimes
we conflate the terms. But dementia is our term for
cognitive impairment that impairs one's ability to function daily. And
Alzheimer's disease is the primary cause or the leading cause.
And what actually happens is there are something called neurofibrillary
(01:43):
tangles that occur in the brain for reasons we don't
fully understand. But essentially these nonfunctioning deposits start to take
over brain cells, and so the functional part of the
brain starts to diminish, and that causes an overall decline
(02:04):
in the brain's functioning. In terms of how that looks, practically,
it starts with memory and and cognitive processing. And so
that's usually the first thing we think about is people
who are becoming more forgetful and having more difficulty with
daily tasks like driving and cooking and other important things.
(02:25):
But then it also starts to impact other functions, even
the ability to walk and eat and use the bathroom
and those important daily activities.
S2 (02:34):
Does it affect personality in any way or is it
primarily associated with memories and body functions?
S3 (02:39):
The trend that I tend to see is one of
two things. One can have more of a aggressive acting out,
or one can sometimes just become very much more reserved.
And when you think about what's happening, one of the
tragedies is, you know, something's wrong, especially in the early stages,
(03:01):
but you can't put a finger on it. Others around
you may be able to see, but because of the
nature of the disease, you can't process your own illness.
And so it's very frustrating. Maybe somebody who was very
highly functional now is being told, you know, you can't drive,
we can't leave you alone by yourself. You maybe can't
understand why that is. And so one reaction is often
(03:25):
to kind of act out and maybe be belligerent. Another
reaction is just to kind of withdraw from the world.
And those are two of the common things that I see.
S2 (03:35):
Is there any sort of awareness by the individual with
Alzheimer's that their memory is fading, or are they not
that self-aware as it goes?
S3 (03:44):
By definition, they become less and less self-aware. And so
maybe in the beginning you notice that something's wrong and
you may even be able to do some things to compensate.
And I sometimes have patients who come in and the
family members saying, you know, we think something's wrong, but
we're not totally sure because this person has been very
(04:06):
good at compensating, you know, doing adaptive behaviors like writing
things down, leaving notes for themselves, etc.. But then when
we do an actual mental status exam, we sometimes refer
to it as the mini mental status exam. It's like
a 30 point question we will ask in the clinic.
A normal result may be 2728, and they score at
(04:27):
an 18. And the person can't believe. This person has
no idea what day of the week it is or
what what season it is outside. They're they're very disoriented
and yet they're still able to, you know, function at
some level. But, yes, as the disease progresses, one really
becomes less and less aware of one's self. Social interactions
(04:49):
can still take place, but it becomes much more of
a minute to minute and moment to moment type of
existence because you're not retaining what's happening even a few
minutes before the short term memory is really affected. And
when you think about how we function day to day life,
you know, the thing we're doing right now is often
(05:09):
based on what happened just a few minutes ago, and
if you can't even remember what happened a few minutes ago,
it's very frustrating and it really becomes a more reactionary
type of existence.
S2 (05:21):
So you're saying it primarily impacts one's short term memory?
S3 (05:24):
That is true. So the long term memory tends to
be preserved longer. I see patients who can, you know,
sing along every verse of their favorite hymn, but they
can't tell you what they had for breakfast. So there
is a damage to what's known as executive functioning. So
the brain's ability to process new information, take that in
(05:46):
and then make a plan of action. And that is
one of the things that is harmed first. And so, yes,
it's very difficult to take in any new information and
retain it.
S2 (05:57):
Is there a way to know what typical progression of
the disease in terms of years someone would be able
to live with this disorder?
S3 (06:05):
There really is no typical progression per se, but the
average lifespan for Alzheimer's dementia, once diagnosis is made, is
about seven years. But that can vary widely among patients.
We are getting better at picking up the disease earlier
(06:26):
and so the life expectancy is increasing. But I think
part of that is related to the fact that we're
picking it up earlier. Part of it is also related
to some of the treatments that are available. There are
some medications that can help somebody prolong some of their
cognitive functioning once it is diagnosed. But there's, I would say,
(06:47):
one of my biggest pieces of advice to family members
or or people who themselves might be facing some memory
difficulties or noticing that something's wrong is pleased to go
get checked out and talk to the doctor. I think
a lot of people are very scared of this disease
and they don't want to know that something's going on.
But the earlier we know something, the earlier we might
(07:08):
be able to intervene.
S2 (07:10):
Is there a way some you would and I know
you can't diagnose. Trust me, but. Is it possible the
guy could have because of Alzheimer's, missed two birthdays?
S3 (07:19):
I would say that's very possible. And if he was
somebody who was very routine about it before and now,
suddenly for no other apparent reason, that's a very possible
that that was the that played a leading role in
what happened. And that's the very thing I was talking
about earlier, that someone who once was good at a
(07:43):
particular activity or a particular routine now suddenly misfiring, so
to speak, that is the earliest sign typically of Alzheimer's disease.
And it's something that, you know, you were used to
seeing somebody able to do, and now they suddenly can't.
And it can be small, subtle things like, yeah, missing
(08:04):
a birthday. That's actually a very good example.
S2 (08:07):
Is it even possible, though, if if he passed away
in 92 of the disease, that that many years earlier,
possibly ten years earlier, you'd see signs of this?
S3 (08:15):
Sure. Because, as I said, there's a wide variation in
terms of the progression. Barring some other event that leads
to someone demise, if someone is generally otherwise healthy, they
don't have, you know, bad heart disease or a bad diabetes, etc..
People can live longer than ten years after the diagnosis
(08:36):
of Alzheimer's.
S2 (08:37):
I'm trying to be overly generous in my possibilities for
what took place there. Is it possible he even forgot?
That my dad sent him a letter.
S3 (08:46):
I can't rule it out. Yeah, I can't rule it out.
I can't rule out the possibility that he couldn't process
everything that was being said in the letter. Or one possibility.
And I've seen cases like this. Sometimes the response to
not being able to fully process something is to lash
out or to withdraw. Maybe this was just such a
(09:09):
difficult thing for him to comprehend that he just didn't
know what to do. He didn't know how to act
or how to respond. I'll mention one other thing and
often the reaction. I can see it as this is
is anger. At first in the earliest stages, I wouldn't
put it out of the realm of possibility that when
your grandfather got that letter from your father, there may
(09:31):
have been a sort of how dare you tell me
that I had forgotten this birthday type of reaction then.
So there may have been an angry response.
S2 (09:42):
One of the scarier things I determined just recently for
my uncle was that he told me a story about
my grandfather driving to a place, as you describe before,
that he'd been at many times, and he got lost
and he needed help finding his way. And he thinks
that may have been in the late 1970s. How long
have you heard patients able to function in the facade,
(10:04):
that it's just periods of dementia like live on their
own before people really realize they need help?
S3 (10:09):
Oh, sometimes. Sometimes years. Yeah. Especially, as I said, somebody
who's used to living by themselves. They can manage things well.
They may have a little blip like that. And at
that point, if he had gotten lost, he's still had
enough wits about him to put some things in place
to make sure that never happened again. You know, and
so people come up with compensatory mechanisms to survive. And
(10:32):
I don't necessarily like to use percentages, but let's say
that what we consider normal is 100%. Well, now you're
functioning at 85%. You can put things in place to
make sure that you don't make a critical mistake. But
as that percentage goes further and further down, you lose
the ability to make those judgments and compensations. But it's
(10:54):
very possible that he had some small changes occurring and
there was no way to know about it. And he
was able to compensate for.
S2 (11:01):
Years because that could be a 10 to 15 year span.
And you're saying that's not out of the realm of
possibility for how the disease works.
S3 (11:08):
There are cases where we diagnose 20 years before someone's
death and he may have been in the category of
something we call mild cognitive impairment. So it's not full
blown Alzheimer's disease, but there are changes that are not
normal and that we would not just attribute to normal
aging things like just forgetting names and numbers. That's a
(11:32):
common thing that people freak out about. But that's normal aging.
But mild cognitive impairment can impair things like driving, paying
your bills on time, you know, remembering birthdays. So he
may have been in that category at that time. And,
you know, that far back, we knew much less than
we know now. And there wouldn't have necessarily been a
(11:52):
way to uncover it in the early eighties.
S2 (11:55):
Any final words of wisdom for me on this mystery
in terms of your experience.
S3 (11:59):
In terms of your particular case? I think it's really
a fascinating story and a sad one in that, you know,
I'm sorry about the the broken relationship there, but I
think it now that we know a lot more about
what sounds to me like the beginnings of dementia that
were happening that probably impacted all of this. It's an
(12:21):
opportunity for Grace to think back on, you know, what
happened to.
S2 (12:32):
Food. In order to sort all this out, I had
to shift away from research and meta analysis. It was
time for outside expertise. My dear friend and mentor Nancy
Kane is a professor, author and licensed professional clinical counselor.
She graciously agreed to listen to everything you've heard so
(12:53):
far and record a pro-bono counseling session of sorts. Hey, Nancy,
it's Brian.
S1 (13:01):
Hi there.
S2 (13:01):
Right. And so, just so you know, I'm recording the
whole thing, but we're just hanging out like friends.
S1 (13:05):
Okay.
S2 (13:07):
So what's your overall reaction?
S1 (13:09):
I think a number of things. One, I was I
think it's an incredible story. I guess I kept wondering
why everybody didn't address the elephant in the room. You know,
why why was there a cut off and why was
there like this obvious, like, unknowns? And it seemed like
from your uncle to your parents, there's this sense of
(13:31):
it being okay to have silence.
S2 (13:34):
Explain that more.
S1 (13:36):
So I got the impression that your dad hadn't been
in a whole lot of contact with his brother and
that that somehow was okay, as well as on the reverse.
Your uncle having this resentment towards his brother and you know,
him saying, oh, well, my bad. But clearly it wasn't
bad enough for him to do something about it.
S2 (13:56):
Yeah. What do you make of that? Because to me,
that's like from another universe. And yet the both of
them just seem like, woops. Sorry.
S1 (14:06):
But that usually gets set up by the parents. And
so I think that I wouldn't be surprised if your
grandpa in the demeanor that people would talk about him
was pretty shut down. So the norm became in the
family or we just there's just we just don't talk
about things that really matter.
S2 (14:25):
And so when you've encountered that, is there usually a
desire in people to have those conversations or the lack
of communication creates even a lack of desire for it?
S1 (14:36):
I think it's more of the norm. We're not going
to go to anything uncomfortable. Like we want peace above
everything else. And so if it means that there might
be some harsh words or there might be some hard feelings,
or we just won't go there.
S2 (14:52):
I guess it's difficult to understand in one sense. But
then in another, finding out my grandfather didn't ask about
us for a decade once. I guess that makes sense, right?
S1 (15:02):
Yeah. And also, when it comes to family systems, there
is to oversimplify, there's two types of family systems. Well,
there's three there's healthy family systems where everyone can go
to see that they're vulnerable, that they're engaged in relationships.
And then there's disengage where the norm is. We're not
(15:24):
going to get that close and we're not really going
to expect much from anybody. The third one is the
enmeshed family system. So everybody's into everybody's face like they're like,
why didn't you show up for work in July and
you should have brought the potatoes and you didn't. And
so it looks like everybody's into this close relationship, but
it's really based on this heavy expectation that everyone should
(15:44):
show up and be present. But once everybody gets into
the room, there's not a whole lot of intimacy. It's
all about expectation.
S2 (15:52):
So you would put us in that second category, then disengaged.
S1 (15:57):
So everybody in a disengaged family, everybody is very appropriate.
There's no conflict and pleasantries, but there isn't a whole
lot of emotional engagement. So to your point, we had
senior cousins in years, but nobody talks about that because
that's the norm is well, we're just we're not going
(16:18):
to ever say anything that's uncomfortable or may cause hard
feelings or address hard feelings because that's just the taboo
and mashed family. Well, it gets it gets set up
with people not wanting to go to vulnerability. It's just
too risky. And it's too uncomfortable. And it means that
(16:40):
some things are going to have to come out of
the skeletons will have to be addressed in the closets,
that it's just better to leave them alone.
S2 (16:49):
Yeah. And you know, what I find out, too, is
that my brother and I have other family that we've
been very close to from my mom's side. And my
cousins have other family on their mom's side they're very
close to. But we all just see this mystery of
each other. And it all stems from, I think, our
dad's silence from unspoken hurt. But then ultimately, can you
point the finger at my grandfather for that?
S1 (17:10):
It probably is a generational thing. My hunch is, is that,
you know, if if you were able to unpack it,
it would be. His father had a certain demeanor. His father,
you know, that there would be this demeanor that was
passed down through the generations.
S2 (17:24):
So can you psychoanalyze my grandpa yet or not?
S1 (17:27):
Well, I think that he he was probably emotionally shut down.
You know, apart from the Alzheimer's, he the way that
they were describing him, very detailed and organized. And whereas
his was that his brother was more flamboyant out there.
That actor.
S2 (17:44):
Yes.
S1 (17:44):
So it's not uncommon family systems for people to play
a certain role. So it sounds like he picked up
on the role of being the responsible details organized. But
in all that, not having a whole lot of affect man.
And so then then communicating that to the rest of
the family of like how do you get close to
someone who doesn't have a whole lot of emotional wherewithal?
(18:07):
You can't it's like it's like bonding with a computer.
S2 (18:13):
So how does one become that way? I mean, it
doesn't sound like you're saying that my grandfather likely was
intentional and malicious about it. It just was a consequence
of what his upbringing or just his personality type.
S1 (18:25):
It was probably related to his his attachment or lack
of attachment to his mother, because we learn our emotional
well-being and our sense of vibrancy emotionally from our that
first bonding with our parents, with specifically our mother. But
if there is some kind of breakdown in that attachment,
(18:45):
then the child the child will go to a shut
down place. It's called avoidant attachment, which is I shouldn't
I don't have any needs and I shouldn't have any needs,
nor should I expect anything from anybody else, either emotionally.
So they live in to the world with this. Again,
pleasant but not a whole lot of vibrancy. The world
(19:08):
is more black and white or shades of gray and
not colors of the rainbow.
S2 (19:14):
I see. I have a hard time even processing that
reality because it's so antithetical to how I operate. So
do you encounter many people in your practice like that?
S1 (19:25):
Yeah, it's not uncommon, and I think that generally people
like that marry people that are pretty emotionally vibrant to compensate.
S2 (19:33):
So then you aren't even entirely surprised by that recording
I found of my grandmother in the early seventies when
she's just all mushy, gushy, affectionate. It doesn't surprise you,
but based on your experience with people like my grandfather.
S1 (19:46):
Right, that when I heard that, I thought, of course,
she's she's playing the emotional role for both of them.
We've shut down and she's back in and I'm sure
I of good intentions covering the emotional wherewithal for both
of them in terms of that aspect.
S2 (20:03):
So then would you expect when she dies prematurely to
have the relationship between father and son just fall apart?
Is that typical?
S1 (20:11):
Yep. Yep. It is. Well, is that typical? But it's
not it's not surprising either, because he would have had
to make the choice at that point. Can I come
up to the plate, really engage with my children in
a way that's helpful for them, meaningful for them, as
well as for me. My hunch is he made a
(20:31):
decision long time ago that he was going to go there.
S2 (20:34):
So how how intentional can I understand that to be?
Or is it that he didn't have the capability to
be that person when his wife died?
S1 (20:42):
Decisions like that are made a long time before that
event happens. So when it happened, it just kind of sealed.
It's just sealed it in terms of how he was
going to be in his world. So there's always the
choice of the well, yes, there's temperament. Yes, there's, you know, genetics.
(21:03):
But a person always has the capability to choose compassion,
to choose love, to choose relationships, and conversely, to choose
that relationship, to shut down, to not care. And in
the family system that you describe, it would have been
okay for him to do that because no one would
(21:23):
have said, hey, why are you, you know, why haven't
you called? Or because the family systems norms were you
don't go there.
S2 (21:31):
And he never would communicate like that anyway. I guess so.
S1 (21:35):
Right. So both brothers would have had a sense of
the dad of, of probably being pleasant, but just not,
not emotionally engaged, not really there for and the mother really, again,
filling up the room with her heart and her compassion.
So in a lot of ways, he didn't have to
do anything.
S2 (21:56):
And, you know, I, I try to understand in my
own mind how a guy goes, though, for a decade
without once asking about his his grandsons and his son.
What can you even begin to understand? What's going on there?
Is it he's forgotten here? Because I know Alzheimer's play
(22:16):
some role in this. But there's part of me that
says Alzheimer's played a strong role in his memory. And
yet at the same time, there's no way he can
get a pass for never even saying, hey, how are
my grandsons if you talk to him or right.
S1 (22:28):
But but the picture is this is generations. So this
is generations of a particular norm that if there's anything risky,
you just don't go there. So even him asking could
have been risky business of getting a response back of Michael.
Why are you asking or you know, you're asking now
(22:48):
for him maybe being afraid that he asked and then
suddenly this unleashes a whole nother conversation that he's not
interested in.
S2 (22:55):
So it's not that he wasn't thinking about it, right?
S1 (22:58):
I'm sure he was thinking about it just by the
very fact that it's his father. Like he would have memories.
He would have some level of attachment to his sons,
but not enough emotional capacity because of his choices to
really reach out.
S2 (23:17):
So there I mean, that sounds painful to me, but
I guess I know how to communicate emotion. So is
that a painful thing for someone like that?
S1 (23:24):
No, because it's it's actually it's a numbing out. It's
a it's making a lot of decisions in a particular
direction just to numb out, to not feel the feelings
anymore and then put some kind of rationale around it. Well,
they're grown adults. Well, life moves on. Well, they don't
really care anyway. You know, it doesn't make that much difference.
(23:47):
A lot of that kind of thing that eventually you
wake up and you don't have relationships anymore except the
one that he maintained on some level with his one time.
And why almost sounds like his son was really active
in pursuing him.
S2 (24:03):
Yes. And they live close together, which is part of
it I think. But yeah, he was active in pursuing. Mm.
So am I accurate in calling it a discernment, Nancy,
or is this something else.
S1 (24:14):
I think that that would be fair is a discernment.
I think that there is. The other part too that
I wondered about is is whether there was something about
your dad that triggered something in him that yeah, Alzheimer's, dementia,
but there is something about their relationship that just wasn't
pleasant for him on some level. And again, it's a
(24:37):
mystery because the whole family system was you don't talk
about anything that's uncomfortable, so you'll never really know. You're
always left kind of looking between the lines and trying
to develop hypotheses.
S2 (24:50):
Yeah, and that's been my journey this whole time, because
if you met my dad, he's not a trigger kind
of guy, just really affable and kind and he's quiet.
But I can't even imagine how he'd be a trigger.
S1 (25:03):
But it could be. And that's what triggers that, the
irrationality of triggers. It could be that he reminded him.
Maybe your grandfather looked at your dad and thought, he
reminds me too much of myself, or there's something about
him that reminds me of myself that I don't particularly
care for. And again, because he's not doing any emotional work,
not really looking to resolve it or going to personal
(25:26):
reflection to resolve it, to grow, to become a a
fuller person. Withdrawal in relationship is just as violent as
open hostility. And that's the part that I think that
you were feeling is like my sense is, is that
you were expressing like, how could someone do this? It's
just as violent as an open assault.
S2 (25:49):
Well, yeah, I it's one of those things that just
eats at you for a long time. It's like, how
in the world does this happen? How in the world
does a guy over a birthday card just ignore his grandkids?
S1 (26:00):
Right. And hearing the physician talk about Alzheimer's. Sure. You
can forget with Alzheimer's. And that could it could have
been started way back then. But it's also indicative of
some larger things that were already in place in his
personality that he was just continuing to play out.
S2 (26:19):
So if you could supernaturally get, you know, my brother
and I in the same room and my uncle and
my parents and my grandfather. Is it even possible to
fix these family dynamics?
S1 (26:31):
Oh, sure. But it has to be it doesn't have
to be on everybody's part, a willingness to come together
and take responsibility. It couldn't be like we're just going
to talk about this, because what will happen in that
kind of family system is that the people default to
the again, the norms. I'm not going to say the
hard things. I won't go to uncomfortable places. So in
(26:53):
that light, then, no, nothing will happen. But if everyone's
willing to come in the sense of everyone taking personal
responsibility for their part in terms of how the relationships
have not grown, have not been resolved, and being willing
to hear the hard things.
S2 (27:12):
Yeah. That sounds almost like an instant insurmountable mountain, you know,
for a guy that that never asked about his son
for a decade to suddenly start talking about things that matter,
you know?
S1 (27:23):
Right. Right. And in again, those choices, like with your
uncle saying, yeah, I've had resentment towards your dad. It's like, well,
why didn't you press into this when it was really happening? Like,
how much did you really care about your brother to
really sit down and say the hard things? Because I
(27:45):
care and I am feeling hurt and I do want
a relationship. I want to talk about these things. Help
me understand why you weren't there. Help me understand. Can
you understand why I would feel hurt? Those are really
hard conversations that given how your grampa modeled, there wasn't
any map to be able to walk through that.
S2 (28:06):
Okay. Yeah, because I was wondering if it's a reflection
of being capable, not willing.
S1 (28:11):
No, I think it's always willing. I think it's always
a willing, because if they're adults, they're always that it's you.
And but you can make particular choices and a singular
direction and end up being incapable. Meaning if someone keeps
choosing to be resentful towards some day after day after day,
(28:33):
at one point they wake up and they're they're past
the point of any real redemption because they've found their
they've become so hardened in their ways. That's not beyond
the the redemption of God, but on a human level,
I think that the more we make choices in a
particular direction, more we create a pathway that look like
they're incapable, but it's because of those choices that they made.
S2 (28:57):
So you've seen people with with bad modeling from their
parents and very little communication with that same family system.
Break through and talk about hard things and heal.
S1 (29:08):
Yes. And I think that that's God's invitation to everyone
is that that you look in the scriptures and there
is clearly God's redemptive hand in family systems, whether you
look at David's or Abraham. And there are choices that
people can make in that family system to be to
redeem what sin has done damage in the family system.
(29:31):
So take my husband, for example. He's the third generation
adult male. He's the first generation of men that haven't
been an alcoholic in four generations. His dad, oldest son,
died of alcoholism. His grandfather alcoholic, died in Skid Row
in Chicago. His father, alcoholic, again, all the firstborn son alcoholics.
(29:57):
But Ray Ray has really felt raised in a lot
of work with saying looking at the profile of the
alcoholism as well as looking at. What I was inviting
him to in saying that my generation.
S2 (30:12):
So if you were to give my dad and his
brother advice on how to repair their broken relationship, how
do they go about doing that?
S1 (30:20):
Well, I think they would need to sit down with
someone like a therapist who can be an objective person.
But first, they would have to be prepped with self-reflection
on both of their parts of what did they think
about their growing up, what they think about their dad,
what's their experience of their family, their journey growing up?
(30:41):
And that personal reflection has to start because I sense
there hasn't been a lot of of, again, that deeper
reflection on story and their own journey. And some of
this is generational that in that generation's war or before
it is what it is, you know, they don't need
to really think about it just is. Now, in order
(31:03):
to grow you, you're going to have to think about it.
S2 (31:05):
Yeah. You know, my parents said that regularly and a
lot of audio I didn't include. It was the well,
you know, when we were kids, parents didn't hang out
with their children. This was the way it was for
everyone in their families. Have you seen that generationally or
is this unique and maybe my Scandinavian background or something?
S1 (31:21):
I've seen it generationally, but I've also seen it more
so in the Scandinavian. Because again, you've got that heavy
cultural norm that says, we're always going to be closer.
So if you have something unpleasant, it's not acceptable because
we're going to be present there. Behind that pleasantry is
a lot of judgment.
S2 (31:41):
Man. I've always wondered if it's a Scandinavian thing, because
you're right. They're kind of Minnesota. Nice. Everything's great. We
all like each other is clearly a facade because not
everyone likes each other and everyone has issues.
S1 (31:55):
Right.
S2 (31:56):
But I guess even generationally raising kids in the fifties
wasn't there was some of somewhat of a cultural reality
like that, too, outside of Scandinavians.
S1 (32:05):
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. But out of that generation
was born the whole A and Al-Anon because of people
like with Ray's scenario dying of alcoholism and a movement
was like, well, now we've got to we've got to
address these things. We've got to look at what's fueling this.
(32:29):
It's not just, well, oh, so-and-so is. That's just the
way it is. No, that's not just the way he is.
That's the choices he's made. But why did he make
those choices? There is something with generation, but I also
think then you add to that the Scandinavian culture and
the lack of value for reflection. And his his choice
(32:51):
was painful. It was just painful. And it's set in
motion for you, a certain perception of your grandpa, a
certain perception probably of the family system, that because of that,
now you're asking the deeper questions and looking for redemption.
I think we're always looking for redemption. Whereas whereas God
(33:11):
wanted to redeem the family and redeem the family system
and redeem individuals from that.
S2 (33:16):
Yeah, and that's been my heart. I think one of
the threads and you know, the tapestry of most of
my life has been this intense desire for family, a reconciliation.
I've worked with my wife and some of her family
on that, and I want to believe that's biblical because
I feel like, you know, Christ is, of course, reconciling
us to God. His is his heart for reconciliation and
(33:39):
family as well.
S1 (33:40):
Absolutely. Without a doubt. You know, back to his journey.
I mean, the work that he did individually affected everybody
in the family system for those that were willing to grow.
And I and I don't know, we'll see an eternity.
The impact of the personal work that he did that
affected that we can't see that affected the entire system.
S2 (34:01):
So how does Rae get through that, though? I mean,
there's a lot of pain and unanswered questions for him.
And I you know, I wanted this to be some
sort of easy answer. I laughed, thinking, hey, it'd be
great if he was just a jerk because then I could,
you know, dismiss it and go, Well, he was a jerk.
But it seems much more complicated than that. And I've
walked away maybe with more questions than answers. So how
do I process through this as a follower of Christ
(34:23):
who's looking for to find forgiveness and peace and love?
S1 (34:28):
The question still begs what? What would you need to
be able to let the pain go and to really forgive?
But I also think that you're looking at the complexity
of the human heart. The sin disintegrates. And crisis in
the process of integrating us and so with your grandpa
than had had its effect on him from I'm sure
(34:50):
a mother that wasn't maybe that compassion or caring to
who knows what happened to her with her mother too.
We could take that all the way back. And that's
the impact of sin on people, on family systems, on generations,
but also the the complexity of the choice of the
well that God will never override our choices to not love.
(35:15):
To not care to to numb ourselves and turn away
from him in our own selfishness and self-centered. Now, that
appears more peaceful. Really, it's not. It's not peace in
the long run. It's. It's it's a lack of peace.
It's a lack of life. So you're your grandpa. It
is a complex situation. Was he a jerk now? But
(35:40):
then he also chose not to love in a way
that was radical and meaningful. Well, that's very significant. It's
just dressed up in a way that doesn't look so violent.
S2 (35:51):
Maybe that's why.
S1 (35:52):
Someone I think does. Because you're left going well. He
behaved pleasant. So what's the problem? Well, the problem is
pleasant isn't love. Pleasant is, you know, is if I'm
describing it with your grandpa, it's more itself soothing. It's
it's safe. It's it's not really engaging. Love always enters
(36:15):
in and looks towards the benefit of the other person.
Always looks beyond one's own interests for the interests of
other people.
S2 (36:21):
So how do I? I feel like I'm closer to
forgiveness and peace. And I'm starting to feel that like
how much my grandfather missed out with not being with
my brother and me and my dad and my mom.
But how do I come to that heart level of forgiveness?
Not just that I forgive you intellectually.
S1 (36:40):
I think the more you'll understand the choice, the the
impact of a lack of love. He. He was the
way he was because he wasn't loved. Well, and then
his response not being love well and his choice not
to engage Christ into that becoming whole. But he I'm
(37:02):
sure he had a level of emotional suffering that was
a result of what he didn't get in his own childhood.
That's sad. Yeah, but he would have to grow up
and be one dimensional, so to speak. But again, it
doesn't just miss his choices, but I think that we
have to then go to God. He's all of that.
(37:25):
And so the more I can see that in my
own self, the more mercy I can extend somebody else.
If I don't see that, that if I feel like
I've made all kinds of great choices and I've loved
well and I've done that when someone hurts me, it's
much easier then to say, Oh, well, that's, that's inexcusable
because I, I work really hard at life. Well, no,
(37:47):
I don't. I, I've screwed up a lot in my
life and not loved well and been self-centered and been
selfish and and seen God continue to extend his love
towards me. And so and the older I get, the
more I see that, the more I see how much
I've been forgiven from, the more I can extend that
(38:10):
to other people.
S2 (38:11):
And that's kind of where I've gotten to at this
point in that I've come to realize that the life
that I'm describing, his relationship with my dad and me
happened at an age decades away right now from where
I am. And it's a bit overwhelming to think that
my grandchildren could make a podcast about me in in
(38:31):
50 years that based on even my current behavior in
my and things I've done already that are wrong, they
could make a pretty horrible picture of me too.
S1 (38:40):
Right. Right.
S2 (38:41):
So then how do I honor him in that type
of reflection? Because I don't want take away for anyone
that was listening to this to be, wow, that guy's
grandpa was a first class jerk.
S1 (38:52):
Well, I think that that I think that there may
be room for more digging. You know, of of getting
more information from your uncle and from Marshall. But to
be able to get the full, fuller picture of what
did he do that was impactful? Marshall Seems like he
had a a sense of that. Just even that little
(39:13):
vignette about buying a used Cadillac every year, will that
tell you about him? And I think you're going to
have to get a fuller picture because right now seems
like you have a half of the picture.
S2 (39:24):
Yeah.
S1 (39:24):
I mean, how much more do you need to understand
about the family system, family tree that he grew up
in that can inform you about him? That, again, you're
going to get the larger picture.
S2 (39:34):
I can say I know he served in World War Two,
not in combat, but you stationed in England for four years.
And I did discover in the midst of this that
his dad's Oscar, his dad died in 1937, in June,
I believe, of 37. Well, Oscar's dad died just six
(39:55):
months earlier. So my grandfather lost his grandfather and his
dad within six months of each other. And he was
in his twenties when he lost them both. And had
to totally shift gears for his life, where his brother,
Marshall Senior, was a professional musician in California. They both
had to drop everything or take over the business. And
(40:17):
my thinking is that probably was a pretty traumatic experience
for him in his twenties.
S1 (40:21):
And it's not uncommon for someone to have that level
of trauma and then just shut down and say Life
is too overwhelming. I'm not. I'm going to shut my
heart down. I'm not going to go there anymore. I'm
just going to do the next thing because I don't
know what to do with this amount of pain.
S2 (40:39):
Yeah. My my dad's cousin Marshall indicated that my grandfather
changed a lot in 75 when his wife died at
age 60. That can really hurt people, too. Right. I mean,
in terms of shutting down emotionally when your wife dies.
S1 (40:51):
Right. And my hunch is, like I was saying earlier,
my hunch is she she completed him like everything that
he wasn't becoming. She was doing it. You know, she
was sharing compassion. She was reaching out to people. She
was always the party in a good way. And so
she leaves now it's again, he's having to face all
the things he didn't become. And again, what it would
(41:15):
be not uncommon for someone to say, I just can't
do this anymore.
S2 (41:22):
It wouldn't be a fair counseling session without doing some self-examination.
So I asked her to turn her attention to me.
S1 (41:32):
From the beginning, I was asking myself the question, Why
is Bryan so invested in this? What is the payoff
for him personally and what is he looking for? Is
he looking for on behalf of his family? And then
if that's the case, then why? Because no one's asking
him to do this. Or is he? Are you looking
(41:54):
at it for yourself? And then again, why? What is
it with unresolved in you?
S2 (42:01):
Help me understand what that could be, because I wish
I had an answer right away. And maybe it's a
reflection of my life, many of my family. But I
don't know if I can give you a direct answer yet.
S1 (42:11):
And I think that's okay. I think I think I
can't answer that. And I think it's okay that you
don't know right now.
S2 (42:20):
How do I find out?
S1 (42:20):
Give us enough truth. Well, God will give us truth
as we're able to handle it. But I think asking
those questions, what's driving me on this? Where's the intensity?
What's painful? What's my outcome that I'm looking for? What's
my investment in that? Being reflective on all those levels
leads you to some understanding of truth.
S2 (42:42):
And see, I know there's pain there because I've always
had an underlying level of pain that I had to grandfathers.
And that was rejected by both one personally, one from
a distance. But I'm not certain what I want to
get out of finding out why the one from a
distance rejected I guess me is the is one. But
all of us but me in particular, I don't know
(43:03):
that I have a Y, Nancy. I do know there's
pain there. I can tell you that.
S1 (43:07):
But what did you conclude about the pain? What did
you conclude about? About yourself with the pain?
S2 (43:13):
What's to make me sound needy? I can tell you that.
Need for acceptance, need for outward expressions of love, perhaps.
S1 (43:24):
I think it's more than that. I think. I think
you have to ask. There's a decision you made about
that rejection that you're looking to resolve, that you that
there's something about that decision that is driving you. I
don't think you're getting to the decision. What did you
decide about yourself as a little boy? That rejection set
something in motion. You.
S2 (43:44):
Goodness. Isn't this where you give me the answer? I
want to have an answer to that question because that's
one of those deeper level things that could be blocking
intimacy with Christ. For me.
S1 (43:57):
Intimacy her Christ, as well as not perpetuating this generational pattern.
S2 (44:02):
So. So what is it?
S1 (44:05):
Yeah, I can't tell you. I don't know.
S2 (44:09):
Well, I don't know either. It feels to me like
I set out to find answers about why my grandfather
disowned me. And I find myself with more questions and
now more convictions. But I feel opened to the realities
of mental illness and generational patterns. And talking to Dr.
Fisher about Alzheimer's. My heart's broken by how that could
(44:31):
have played a role in my grandfather's life. And talking
with Nancy Kane. I realize that other issues are at
play here, issues that I'm the victim of and the
perpetrator of in a long lineage of familial ness. So
what does all this mean about my grandfather? About me?
(44:54):
I pray that this conviction can turn into action. This
fog into clarity and this story into something that can
be redeemed. Maybe this journey wasn't the spirit pushing me
towards clarity, but towards conviction. Maybe the story wasn't about
my grandfather at all. Maybe it was about me. About
(45:18):
all of us. Listen next week to the final episode
of The Grandfather of Fact, where we'll end our story,
where it all began.
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