186. AI, Web Design & Digital Strategy in 2025

AI is changing the way websites are built, optimized, and ranked—but what does that mean for businesses? In this episode of The Marketing Madmen, Nick Constantino sits down with Jason Cyr to explore how AI-driven web design, SEO shifts, and local search optimization are reshaping the digital world. From AI-generated content to the decline of organic search and the future of website conversions, they break down the biggest trends in digital marketing for 2025.

Key Takeaways:

• AI tools are reshaping website design, making it faster but challenging creativity.
• SEO is evolving—Google’s AI-driven results are reducing organic traffic by up to 95%.
• Local SEO is more critical than ever, with Google favoring reviews & verified listings.
• Conversion-focused strategies matter more than search rankings for business success.
• Businesses must shift their approach—prioritizing trust, engagement, and clear CTAs.

patreon.com/TheMarketingMadMen: https://www.nick-constantino.com/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
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They say marketing is a mad man's game, so now we turned it
over to the Marketing Madman with Nick Constantino and Trip
Joe on Extra One O 6 Three FM. Happy Saturday and welcome to

(00:43):
the marketing Mad Men. Nick Constantino here and I'm
with Jason Seer of Jason Seer Designs.
And we are talking websites today.
So that's a very broad overarching topic.
And I feel like it's it's one that's changed so much.
So as usual, we're going to approach this from the guise of
a complete ADD addled conversation.
We're going to cover as much as we can and hopefully some of
these snippets help people out. So first of all, Jason, how you
doing my man? Doing awesome.

(01:04):
Good. Glad to have you here.
Glad to have you here. So let's let's just hit it.
So AI is is the buzzword. Everyone's talked about it.
So first and foremost, in my opinion, anyone thinks that the
machines are taking over, we areyears away from that happening
because it still can't even perform some basic tasks like
this. This podcast is going to be
broken down into text and I'll have to run 4 separate summaries
to get it down because there's too many words for AI to

(01:25):
process. So the machines aren't rising up
yet guys. So besides that, talk about just
in, in in the past year, just we're going to start here and
we're going to work our way backwards.
Talk about how much AI has changed and what your
conversations with your clients are like right now.
Yeah. I mean, I think the biggest
thing for me, AI has changed theway that I run my business.
You know, it's, I'm a, I'm a designer and developer, which is

(01:47):
kind of a unique combination of my field.
You, there are people who only do design and people who only do
development. And what I don't do is I don't
write content for my clients. My clients don't want to write
content. They don't want to pay 10s of
thousands of dollars for a copywriter.
So with all these AI tools available out there, you can put
in prompts or you can use services that will that will
kind of coach you through the prompts you use and you could

(02:09):
spit out content that you can use in your website.
Yeah, my advice is I, I go with the first one if you can.
You got to start. You got to learn how to write
prompts, and prompts start kind of writing themselves if you ask
for the right things out of it. And I think the, the concept of
writing a prompt should not be something that you like.
Oh, I'm just going to write prompts.
You should start very simply andevolve the prompts and learn the
prompts. And then when you get a good
prompt, you should save that prompt and never share with

(02:31):
anybody because that prompt is of value these days.
Yeah, I mean, you, there's people that that's their
business is writing prompts for AI.
And so where it's really changedme for for my workflow, getting
content from my clients. I've been doing this for about
15 years. Getting content from clients is
the hardest part of my job. And I work with, I mean, I work
with all kinds of companies, whether it's, you know, a single

(02:52):
person, you know, businesses, small businesses to, you know,
Fortune 500 companies and getting content is just that's
the worst part. And so if I can tell my clients
who, you know, they're trying torun their own business, you
know, I coach them through some questions where that I can use
the answers to those questions for the prompts that I'll use
for the AI platform that I, thatI use my, my day-to-day.

(03:14):
And, and I can spit out, you know, their value proposition.
I can spit out, you know, like all the things that I use when
I'm, when I'm building the website because I don't want to
write content. Yeah, I'm not a writer.
I'm a designer and developer. So, so in that respect, AI has
been a game changer. And in about a year ago, I had
been, we have a local meet up group.
I'm up in Marietta. We have a local meet up group

(03:35):
for, you know, web designers anddevelopers and we had this very
conversation about AI and it waskind of coming to the forefront
of what we do. Like how is AI going to change
everything? And you know, there's, you know,
people, you know, say, well, I think it's going to do this.
I think it's going to do that inthree months after we had this
meet up group, AI had completelychanged.

(03:55):
There was there, there's products now where I can go if I
don't feel like, you know, trulybeing hands on with the design,
I can go to AI and I can spit out like a wireframe layout for
an entire website in minutes, you know, versus.
And and you can in theory set upagents that will code said
website for you. If you give it the language and

(04:16):
the parameters the right way, not only will it lay out the
framework, but then it'll say ifyou write in this language code,
here's an image of what I'm looking for, it'll design it for
you. Yeah, and, and it's just, you
know, I'm, I, I call myself a developer, but I'm not what we
would call full stack developer.So I, I work with the WordPress
ecosystem and framework and I know it very well and I can do
most everything. But if the things that I can't

(04:37):
figure out, I have a developer that I use quite often, but I
can go to AI and I can say, OK, I need a plug in to do this,
this and this and I'll spit out code and it will work like
within minutes. So, you know, from my own
business, it's really changed the game, you know, but it's a
tool that I use for my clients and they don't want to deal with
this stuff. They just want a website that's
going to convert and be effective.

(04:57):
And I can use that AI tool to help, you know, get that that
goal, reach that goal. So, so one of the things I've
come to find out and it and it started with very simply, I use
AI for this show. I was use it to build summaries
and I was building all this stuff to help the show.
So the way I approached it was very simply, here's a guest,
give me topics, okay? And then I go, cool, I don't

(05:18):
really care about your topics. I want topics that are good for
SEO to make this podcast do well, okay.
And once I started reverse engineering and parametering
those and then plugging that back into Google, the show kind
of took off because I was not guessing.
And what I found was AI doesn't like whimsy, OK?
It doesn't like create. It wants a definition of what
you're talking about in the least words possible So we can

(05:38):
build this, this story and and that that is the hardest thing I
can imagine if someone about their own business, they want to
be like adding so many, you know, descriptive words and they
talk about emotion. There's no emotion in this.
This is a bullet points of the business that you do.
And I think that's one of the things that's come true.
Now that being said, I'm also worried that we're taking some
of the creativity and taking some of the emotional.

(05:59):
Like advertising is one of thosethings.
You've always said this, you cannot create and listen
emotional reaction with data points.
You don't know what are the things that people are going to
love. If we did, then we'd all be
watching TV glued for 10 hours at a time because they know how
to wig our brains to figure thisout.
Everybody's different. Psychology is crazy.
You look at the stock market, you can do every predictor in
the world. We have no idea when the stock

(06:20):
market's going to crash. Trust me, I've tried.
I've lost lots of money trying to think because I think I know
better. So I think as important and as
crazy as it is and what AI is doing, I think you have to
approach it with the guys of this is a tool that will assist
in a task. One, I can't take it personally
when it tells me I'm a dumb dumbbecause it tells me I'm a dumb
dumb all the time. It's like, this is stupid.
I don't even know why you said this, and I'm fine with it.
I'm polite to my AI. I speak nicely, but I, I think

(06:44):
that these different things are happening right now all the same
time where everybody is either using it or they're using it for
this. But I don't think we're at a
point where people are really building workflows for
themselves and how this works within their set of business.
So everybody's just racing to dothe same thing right now, which
is interesting to see all in real time.
Yeah, I, you know, like I said, going back to this, this meeting
we had, you know, about a year ago, you know, with a bunch of

(07:07):
colleagues, like I really pushedagainst AI 'cause I, you know,
I, I want to listen to my clients and build something
that's unique. And that's, and that's how I, I
pitch my businesses. You know, nothing I build is,
is, you know, from a template and or, you know, canned
everything is unique. But as I started using it and,
and seeing all these service providers that I use starting
coming out, starting to come outwith their AI, you know,

(07:30):
offerings, Yeah, it's really, truly made my job easier.
Sure, I have a a really cool project I'm working on.
It's the Ian Fleming Foundation and and what they do is they,
yes, they they catalog all the James.
Bond vehicles I mean they just sold the the IT wasn't the IT
wasn't the author, but the family who owns the rights just
sold them back to MGM. It was like this long

(07:50):
negotiation OK, so did you know this?
I do not know. OK, so James Bond, the, the, the
rights to it were owned by the family, one of the families, not
that rota that founded something.
And MGM has been trying to get those rights back through Amazon
cause Amazon owns MGM. OK.
And it just happened about a week or two ago that Amazon
bought back all of the rights. So they own all the intellectual
property associated with James Bond now.

(08:11):
So which means they'll be 67 spin offs, 45 different Bond
agents. Everything in the world is about
to go to crap just like it did when they took Star Wars over.
But anyway. Yeah, so.
Fleming Bond, go ahead. And I will say so a great bunch
of guys. Super super James Bond nerds.
Actually. Long story but it turns out the
guy who reached out to me is my neighbor.
He lives 3 Doors Down from me. Had no idea we lived on the

(08:33):
street. He's a president of the the
Union Fleming Foundation. But where AIAI comes into play
with the story is I was doing research and I was trying to
find stock photos that I could use because it's really hard to
find licensing or or images thatyou can license for James Bond.
I use Adobe stock. Sure.
I could not tell. And even for other clients, the

(08:54):
difference between AI generated images, I mean, there's, there's
some that are pretty obvious, yeah.
It it's not good at spelling, itscrews spell the more words you
have on them it can't get the language right, which is so
crazy to think about. It should be the easiest thing,
but it for some reason every time I've tried that's that's
those intricacies it can't do. Yeah, in, in.
I mean, if you're, I have a background photography, so I can
kind of tell, you know, with most images where it's where I

(09:16):
can, this is AI. But for that project, I was just
doing some research and I found some great James Bond images I
want to use. And you know, Daniel Craig, who
I thought was Daniel Craig and you know, and then with Adobe
stock, you can see if it's AI generated or, or not.
And you know, and this, that was8-9 months ago.
And I was like, man, dude, AI isgetting so good with stock

(09:39):
photos and you know, all these other things.
And so it's, it's definitely been a game changer.
I was pushing against it, you know, selfishly, but it's a tool
that I have to embrace and it's a tool that my clients are going
to have to embrace because you know, we were talking before we
went on air that, you know, it'saffecting search, it's affecting
SEO where where I come in for SEO is I focus on technical SEO.

(10:01):
So I don't do the on page stuff.I hire somebody else to do that.
But you know, coming up with thetitle tags, meta descriptions,
all tags for images and all that, you know, those are things
that you need. But there's these other factors
that are coming into play that, you know, if you do a Google
search on the search page, search in the result page, you
know, the first thing you're going to see is their AI
results. And I, you know, I saw somebody

(10:23):
on YouTube said 95% of traffic to websites just going to tank
because what it's doing is it's farming that content like it did
traditionally. But it's doing it without the
influence of advertising supposedly, because eventually
that's going to change also. But it's doing it without the
influence of the advertising dollars, which is what Google
has been so anti Google is because it's so influenced about

(10:43):
those advertising. They can monetize it.
They're going to they're going to monetize it at some point.
Yeah, it's it's crazy. It's crazy interesting.
And I think the biggest, the biggest part of it is like
they're it doesn't seem to be people in the middle.
Like you're either really in thecamp or you're not in the camp
at all. There's very few people like
dabbling in the middle. And the ones that dabble are the
ones who don't they they can't understand the concept of prompt
writing. They like they wrote it like

(11:03):
this is stupid, didn't give me what I want.
Well, to make my prompt for thisshow took me probably 300 tries
to get to the prompt to which I needed because I learned the
things that I needed for the show to see.
Now I get experimental. I go, has anything changed that
I need from you that I am missing?
And it will literally say this is something to think about.
Like Spotify is big into video now.
So it'll actually tell me those things, which is crazy to think

(11:24):
about it. And then it's really hard for
people that are not technological people to
understand the concept of havinga conversation with a machine
because that is what you're doing.
It's what you're doing. You're having a conversation.
You are saying, please, you're saying, I, you know what?
I want it, but I want it a little bit more this way.
And again, the machines are not rising up yet.
It doesn't understand context. It doesn't understand emotion.
It's, it's really not good at it.
Like I even tried to be like, I need to, I need to get more

(11:46):
empathy in this, right? And you write and you're like,
this now sounds fake. So it doesn't, it doesn't get
those things. What AI model are you using?
So I rotate, I use copilot because all my stuff is
Microsoft. So it's built into Excel, which
really helps me speed up the theworkflows that I have to do.
But it's not as good as a GPT 4.So I'll go over to chat ChatGPT

(12:06):
also to it. But you know, my AI agents, I'm
using AI agents, but I'm using them because I think people are
going to eventually use them. And I'm trying to figure out
consideration sets for the products in which I'm trying to
do to be a little bit experimental.
And even there they're they're they're not quite there yet in
my thing. They kind of screw up a lot.
They speak to themselves. They're not giving you the
parameters like I'm not an expert.
I'm like, that is a really bad choice of what you just did.

(12:27):
So so anyway, I did that on purpose, by the way, because I
wanted to completely throw you off and skip not even talk about
websites and just you have the AI conversation.
So we're gonna get back and we're gonna actually talk about
websites. You've been listening to the
marketing MEM and Extra 106 three and we'll be right back.
Big news pepperoni fans, Marco'sPizza is celebrating America's

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(13:09):
California prices higher. Limited time only price of
participation. Mayberry Pizza restrictions may
apply. See participating source for
details. Now back to the marketing Mad
Men on Extra 106.3 FM. Welcome back to the marketing
Mad Men on Extra 106 three, NickConstantino here with Jason
Seer. And we went crazy with our AI

(13:29):
conversation, but we did it on purpose because it is at the
root of every conversation happening across business,
across marketing. So we're going to rewind a
little bit and now we're going to have that kind of practical
applications thought. So you said you've done this
about 15 years to talk about thedevelopment because everything
kind of goes in waves, right? There was the original
foundation where you just neededa website, right?
Decent navigation, make it easy links.

(13:51):
Then we started getting into theOK.
Now Google is this money maker. We got to start playing Google's
game. So that was the really the SEO.
That was where we started working within their parameters.
And now you see that it's still dominant, but you're seeing it
switch now to the AI revolution.So I may have submitted it
quickly, but give give a little bit about the evolution and the
stages of evolution you've seen and and how we've entered kind
of this new phase of this all. Yeah.

(14:13):
So you know, when I first started out, you know, 15 years
ago, which both at the same timeseems like forever ago, but also
it seems like it was yesterday and I was just starting to, you
know, to get into this. I would always tell my clients,
you know, you have your static pages, your about us page, your
home page, you know, your services and all that.

(14:33):
But to really be to rank well, you have to have dynamic content
blog three times a day. The blog has to be or sorry,
three times a week. The blog has to be X amount of,
you know, characters, all this stuff that Google was telling
you and you know, SEO pros are telling us my clients, they, you
know, they could barely, you know, they barely had time to
run their business. They're not going to write 3
blogs a week to try to compete. Then that eventually started to

(14:57):
evolve into, you know, what I started to do.
And when I say eventually I'm talking, you know, 5-6, seven
years. When I, I realized I wasn't
interested in doing the actual content, like writing the
content. I had SEO professionals that
would do that. It started, you know, working
towards the the social proof model where you know reviews are

(15:18):
really important. Probably if you sell widgets,
you need to have you know, reviews on your website.
You know Google reviews local SEO optimization if you have a a
service area or. And a lot of this was a lot of
this was Google's way of countering fraud also because
those things became real becausepeople just didn't, they had AI
write reviews and then they start to have verified purchases
and then anybody can make an e-mail address.

(15:38):
So everything seems like it's kind of a give and take to
adjust. And you know, look, everyone,
you know what Google's going to tell you is we want to make it
more fair there, but what they really mean is we want to find a
way to make ourselves more money.
So like you see those things. But again, I think if you look
at it holistically, it makes sense the way this is all laid
out, right? Like I think really all Google's
trying to see is if you're wortha damn or not, because they want

(15:59):
people to be engaged with their platform for as long as
possible. So all they're trying to say is
like, do people do other people give a crap about what this is
going on? Is it layered and will laid out
well enough that it's organized and they're trying to figure
this out in real time. And again, it's this ebb and
flow versus the creators, the content writers, but then also
about the the people who are trying to beat the system or
make these false promises or do all these things.
Like I remember one of the things that for the backlinks,

(16:21):
Oh yeah. And what do you do?
Well, you just want a machine and it's going to make you all
these backlinks, right? Is it really, because then if
everyone's doing it, how is it? How does Google want everybody
to just do the same thing? So I think, and that's kind of
what I'm getting to talk about the relationship with Google
Talk about as you're designing websites, like are you Google
certified? Are you trying to out think it
talk about because I feel like at some point it's just like you

(16:43):
got to give in. Yeah, it's frustrating.
But that's when I think this show started doing really well
when I just started giving in and saying, you know what, maybe
I don't know what I'm talking about.
Let me just work within their parameters.
And I hate that I had to but buttalk about that relationship.
Well, I mean, I'm going to tell you the way that I design and
build my websites. I don't really care about
Google. I care about the person who is

(17:04):
going to land on that site and converting them into a client
because that's what's going to matter for, for my clients.
Now, of course, you know, I, I do focus on the technical stuff,
like I follow best practices forthe technical SEO.
And, you know, the technical SEOis, are basically things that
you, you must have on every page, you know, that the search
engines are looking for. But I really, and this is, you
know, 8-9 years ago, I really stopped just like trying to, you

(17:26):
know, force my clients to reallypay attention.
You know, you have to have your content written by an SEO who
truly understands how to write the content to get the search
engines there. I started focusing on, you know,
I started asking my clients, howare people finding your website?
Most of them are direct traffic,whether it's you know, you know,
they're getting referrals from other clients or whatever.

(17:48):
When they land on your website, you know, are you telling them
where to go, how to get there, what you sell?
Like what's the call to action? You know, what do you, what's
the value proposition? What does success look like if
they use you for your service orwhatever?
So I take a an approach where I tell my clients, I say, OK, I'm
going to do all the things that we need to do for the technical

(18:09):
side of SEO. I'm not going to tell you that
you need to go spend another 10,fifteen, $20,000 to have a
copywriter write you content that is specific for SEO because
that almost doesn't matter anymore.
And what I focus on is the localSEO optimization.
And so it's making sure you havea Google My Business page,
Facebook business page, making sure that your phone number,

(18:30):
your name, address, everything is consistent because those are
things that Google, Google has said that matters.
And most recently in the last year and a half and especially
the last six months is reviews. Google reviews, Facebook
reviews. You must have testimonials,
reviews on your site and these things appease the search
engines. But more importantly, it, it's
for the human that's visiting the site.

(18:53):
And to me, that's, that's reallymore important.
You know, I mean, I've gone on websites where I can clearly see
whoever designed and and developed this website, wrote
the content, wrote it for the search engines.
It does not speak to me as a potential client or.
Customer and I think the hard part is, is it's got a the
reason I do a bouncing act. So the role that I'm in now
you're talking man, I mean hundreds of thousands of of

(19:15):
website visits. You're talking about a brand
that's been around for 40 years you're talking about but the
same time. So the way I try to tell people
this is the brand when if someone asks me what's my 30,000
foot view of this brand? And again, it's only been a
month, but it is. I want to use the techniques and
tactics of e-commerce. I want you to get your ass in
store. OK?
And there's a couple reasons. Number one, you can't see a
diamond sparkle online. So you'd be out of your mind to

(19:36):
buy something as important as a diamond online.
You'd be, you'd be nuts to do so.
We're not we're not there yet 2 The process of buying a diamond
is so different for everybody. You need to go meet with
somebody that either knows how or knows how to sell you.
There are certain things in lifeyou should want to be sold.
That's why real estate is exist,right?
If there wasn't there be an open, you can just buy a house
easy breezy. But real estate agents exist

(19:57):
because you don't know what you're talking about and
realistically nobody has a clue how jewelry works and how
diamonds work. So we are trying to use.
E-commerce tactics to bring you to a website, but give you just
enough to whet your appetite to bring you into store, right?
That's a clear vision, not an easy vision, But so a lot of the
tactics and techniques we use are more about like you want

(20:17):
Princess cut? Well, that's a stupid cut of
diamond, but I can't tell you that.
So let me give you the Princess cut so you can find out about
it. But really we want you in store
to tell you how no one on earth is buying Princess cut.
So I think what I'm trying to dowith this is very specific.
And I while I do have to plan those things, ultimately you're
right. When you're on that site, are
you more likely to buy or less likely to buy?
And if it doesn't, then it doesn't matter.

(20:38):
I don't need the traffic to havetraffic.
I need the traffic to be to vet out who's the right customer and
get them in the store to purchase something.
Right. So I just saw something the
other morning that FreshBooks, so kind of like a QuickBooks
competitor, they increase their sales by 20% just by having
testimonials on the homepage, social proof.
I want to know who I'm doing business with.

(20:59):
I want to know if you know if they have a good product or good
service. My wife, my family and I would
travel all the time. If we're in, you know, we go out
West every year if I'm somewhereand I want to eat at a
restaurant. I'm a Yelp guy.
I'm a Yelp guy. Personally I go to the place I
do the nearest ones and I'll pick a restaurant because of
reviews in 100. Percent, yeah, 100%.

(21:19):
So it you know it there, there are definitely, you know, you
have to if you're a business that's just starting out and
you're not getting any traffic. Most of my clients don't even
have analytics. They don't even know what kind
of traffic. OK, that that helps me
understand the phase you're in because what you're talking
about, I'm not saying it's easier, but if you're not
looking for a million customers,it's easier to ignore the Google
stuff because you're, you're word of mouth.

(21:41):
You have a business card with the website on it.
So the, because to me, like, so I, I am a fond believer of, of
look, organic search and direct are how you can tell how
successful business will be, right?
I like Google trends, all of these things that are that you
can't BS your way through it, right?
None of this matters, right? If you're the SEO guy and
organic search is going down, isit because the competitors are

(22:02):
doing a better job or are you not doing it?
There's no other way to do it, especially in a high barrier to
entrance, barrier to entry industry.
So as you look at it, that's then that's why I'm asking.
He's like, we see 50% of our traffic is direct search and an
organic search, right? And for me, I'm like, look,
guys, that is because they've been on radio and mass media and
TV and magazines for 40 years. So my conversation with my

(22:23):
digital people is, is that they're like, oh, you should
spend more money in digital. I'm like, you should thank the
Lord that he was doing the stuffthat made you look like you're
good. And it's not tricking me
anymore. Like you're succeeding because
he did 40 years of brand marketing.
Stop pretending like you're doing this.
So those conversations are hard,but it's true.
And as you design websites, whatis the end goal?
My end goal for a website is, is, is as simple as can be.

(22:47):
Does it reflect who we are as a company?
Does it reflect the call to action to which we want to have
happen? And does it make sure it recaps
the positive experiences? And if it does those things and
it's accomplishing its goal, when you deal with your clients,
what are they trying to get out of the website?
What is the the number one thingthat they're like?
This is what success looks like.I mean the, the majority of my

(23:07):
clients which are service based clients is to get that initial
lead, that initial contact. You know, we were talking about
one of my clients who is, you know, arguably but not arguably,
I can tell you by metrics that she is one of the best
dietitians in the Atlanta area, very, very competitive area.

(23:28):
And so when we were talking about how our business model.
Probably, if you don't mind asking, probably competitive,
low barrier to entry. There's a lot of them and you
don't need a lot. You don't need capital to really
start right. You just need clients.
You need the advertising, but you don't need to go spend
$1,000,000 on inventory. You don't need those things.
The service provider makes it competitive.
Yeah, exactly. And they're just, you know, I
mean, it's like attorneys, I mean, they're, we're in such a

(23:49):
in the in the Atlanta area. I mean, you know, we're, we're
such a congested area for a lot of these services, right.
So how do you make yourself stand out?
Yeah. So for her, when I took on her
her website years ago, you know,she is on local media, national
media, radio. She gets the visits, but she
wasn't getting the conversion. So.
It's more of a curated experience, a curation.
You're honing, you're taking thebig people, putting them in a

(24:11):
net, but making sure that there's something catch all that
brings them to the next step in the next action.
Yeah. And so in, in like we were
talking about, you know, affair is that her, her business model
has changed so much in the last 6 to 12 months because of these
new drugs that are out there for, for dietitians or for
diets, whatever Ozampic and all those.
So her, her current website, we're working, working on the,

(24:33):
the revision right now is that her current website has all
these call to actions and services about what she offers
and what she used to do, you know, get a lot of business
from, because that business model has changed so much in the
last 6 to 12 months. Now we have to rewrite, you
know, the content, the calls to action for now, the new clients
out there, the people who are taking these medications and
have, you know, complications oryou know what it, it's just

(24:54):
really changed the, you know, the, the landscape of of her
business. But, you know, so for most of my
clients, it's, you know, gettingthat person who goes to the
website, turn them into, into a lead.
And, you know, there's a couple of different ways to do it.
And most, you know, statistics out there, most people who come
to your website the first time, they're not going to become a

(25:16):
lead right away. Yeah.
You gotta be moved down the funnel.
Exactly. But most websites out there go
to any website and just see whattheir call to action is.
OK, You know, schedule a free consultation.
How many times do you see that throughout the website?
You might see one button up in the navigation.
I am putting that. Yeah, that's call to action.
There's got to be a clear and tangible thing to get out of it.

(25:37):
And most people don't do that. So if I, if I want to, you know,
buy your widget, I want to hire you to do whatever, but I don't
know what you do. I don't know how to hire you or
how to contact you. Then you just you've lost me as
a client. So, you know, to your point,
yes, I want when people come to my clients websites, I want
them. The first thing I want them to

(25:59):
feel is that they have somebody who understands the position
they're in. OK, you know, I've used this
example before. I used to have a a few clients
who they were defense attorneys,OK, So they were like their
bread and butter were DIY cases.OK, not a very, you know,
pleasant topic. But if I get a DUIDUI and I go

(26:20):
to an attorney's website, I'm doing research for a for a
website, I'm freaking out. I have you know you got.
You want the easiest to want to get a hold of that person. 20 to
30 seconds is what you have on average.
To capture my interest. I just want to know, you know,
can you, can you solve my problem and how do I contact?
For sure. So there was an attorney, Ray
Giudice. He's now retired.
Ray, if you're listening, we miss you, bud.

(26:42):
He was actually on the show and he gave his cell phone number
out on public radio, good for 40years.
And he just crushed it into business because he said when
you are in that instance, you don't need a receptionist, you
don't need a website. You need me.
Exactly me. And even if he didn't answer it
all the time, because he's probably in court, there's a
million variables, but that thatcall to action is a real call to

(27:02):
action. Word spreads because someone
finds out that he answered, you're more likely to answer.
I think you're right. And I think the problem is we've
gotten so distracted with KP is that we're not worried about
call to action and we're so worried about, well, the HubSpot
account says these leads all came in.
Well, what do they do afterwards?
I don't know. Well then how's it of any value
to me? Because the problem is it's easy
to cheat nowadays, right? It's easy to get fake reviews.
It's easy to pay to get fake followers.

(27:23):
You can pay for all these things.
That's part of the mechanism that makes it so hard.
So what are what is the call to action that you want to
accomplish? And then they get really
defensive when you start challenging them.
Like I'll give you a great example.
So I'm dealing with something now where ultimately they're
doing a lot of branded keywords.OK, So they are just capturing
people that are already searching Salomon Brothers.
And it's like jumping from the top of man be like, look how

(27:44):
much we achieved. They go how how are you
achieving anything? All you're doing is capitalizing
be business that's already coming to you.
And you're yeah, you're getting a low of a high, you know, a
high click through rate and a low cost per acquisition.
But they're already searching for us.
So I don't understand how that'san accomplishment.
But we've gotten so distracted with KPIs and metrics that we
don't understand call to action.Are you reminding them how to
get a hold of you and why they need to?

(28:06):
Yeah. And and that's why the the way
that I position myself, if I have a client coming to me is
that, you know, I don't, I want them to be successful in that.
If I build you a website, I wantyour business to increase how
whatever that metric is you want, you know, my actually our
church that we go to, we're going to be, I'm going to be
building their new website and our pastor wants to increase,

(28:29):
you know, the, the amount of people that come to church by
20% over the next year. OK, well, how do we do that?
Right? So, so he has a, he has a
metric. If I talk to a business, you
know, we want more business. Well, how much more business do
you want, you know? How are you?
Where do you make your most margins?
What do you there's more questions to ask.
You want more business? How are you getting your
business now? Do you want real leads?
Because one of the things I've always felt like leads are are

(28:51):
are messy, right? Google.
Yeah, if you just want leads, they'll get your leads.
But what if you wasted all of your resources closing leads at
a 1% clip? Then those leads are worthless,
right? Would you rather have 1000 leads
and convert 100 or 1000 or 10,000 leads and convert 100?
It's easy to know. But again, we're so distracted
with these glamour metrics. It's the, the this evolution of
the Internet is just everyone thinks that they can just trick

(29:12):
their way into it or spend moneythe way into it.
I just don't see it happening anymore.
Yeah. I mean, you know, my, my clients
asked me if they, you know, should be, you know, doing other
marketing campaigns or, you know, spending money in places
where they really shouldn't be spending money.
It's like, well, you know, like a restaurant client.
Like, how much money have you spent on quality photography for

(29:33):
your business? Mia, who put us in touch.
I met her years ago. I had a client up in Marietta
who's a restaurant like. Shut up, Mia.
Yeah, Mia. I haven't seen her in years.
She's downstairs. Is she?
Yeah, She's poor. She's downstairs.
Make sure you go say hi. She's.
She a phenomenal photographer and so I actually met her.
I had a client a really like high end, not high end, but a

(29:53):
really nice restaurant in Marietta Square, you know,
classically trained French chef,food was amazing. iPhone
photography on their website. Horrible.
Actually, I don't think I have photography on on his menus, but
so he contacted me to build him a website and I'm like, here's
your, you know, here's how much I'm going to cost.
What's your budget for photography like?
Well, I'd, I'd dabble in photography.

(30:14):
I'll just do it myself. Like, please don't.
And you know, hiring a legit photographer like me or you
know, quality food photographer,it completely changed his
business. And you know, it's so funny.
Look, don't get me wrong, phonesare great.
OK, all this is great. The lighting is the problem.
And nobody understands how to light things the right way
because what you're lighting therestaurant for is traffic in a
restaurant. You're not lighting it for

(30:35):
photography. So, So what you the best case
scenario would be you black the whole freaking thing out and
came in with actual lights and took shots.
That's the problem. It's not the photography.
The phones are great. Like if it's a clear, perfect
sunny day outside and you want to take a photo, any camera
phone you have is going to do the trick.
But when does that have? When does that that happen?
When are you shooting with perfect lighting?
It's never happening. The.
Texture looks, you know it's horrible.

(30:56):
Yeah, we're about to launch an episode.
I don't know if you know, 'causeMia brought him Mike Moon.
He was actually a photographer for the Marines and he was their
photographer and their journalist and he talked all
about lighting. We did a whole freaking episode
on lighting. I've never seen someone geek out
about lighting the way that lighting the way this guy did.
But again, what I've come to realize is everywhere you could
spend all the money in those high end camera in the world,
right? If that room is not lit.

(31:16):
And there's the same thing with sound, you can spend the best
microphone in the world. These are not even right angles.
This room is sound aligned for perfect sound.
That's why it sounds good. You can't cheat these things.
We spend so much time trying to cheat these things.
You cannot cheat these things. Right.
So to your points, like, OK, youknow, I can build you a website
that's going to look awesome. It's, you know, I'm going to
help guide you. I'm going to coach you through
like, you know, the getting the right content, the right copy

(31:38):
and all that. That to me is much more valuable
than telling you that, OK, you need to spend 10s of thousands
of dollars with me to build a website.
And then, oh, by the way, you need to have a copywriter write
all this content to piece of search engines.
And oh, by the way, you need to,you know, have, you know, paid,
paid advertising, paid marketing, you know, yeah, it's,
that's, that's the way that I operate.

(31:59):
And that's a chicken or the egg thing, right?
So for me, yes, you should always be doing paid advertising
if you want to grow your base, if your website is built to
receive it, if you have the technical parts of the website
down, like I can't tell you how many it's been my whole career.
I used to meet with people and they used to be like, oh, I
can't spend money right now. I'm I need to go do SEO, I need
to do this stuff. And I would fight it.
And there was a point about 10 years ago where I was like, Oh

(32:20):
my God, I don't know why I'm fighting this.
How are they going to find me ifthey're SEO and they're their
biggest competitors, just stealing all their traffic.
So you need those things to be aligned.
Then you could spend money, but without good photography,
without sound principles, without clear call to action,
what is the point of getting your name everywhere?
And that's where people do it wrong.
They feel like it's the website.Look, I think websites need to

(32:40):
be thought of as operational expenses, not marketing
expenses. That's rule one.
That's not a marketing expense. That is an operational line item
if you don't look at it that way.
And I think to be honest, SEO isalso SEO is not, it is not a
maybe it's lucky if I have this,it is a functional part of
business these days. Yeah.
And that's so I'll give you another example.
This was a long time ago, maybe 10-12 years ago.

(33:00):
A friend of mine I knew when I used to live out in Utah, he
moved to LA and had all this funding to build this massive
CrossFit gym. This is one really CrossFit is
like as pinnacle, right? It was like a $250,000 budget to
build this CrossFit gym. OK, So he reaches out to me.
They're about to. That's a lot of tires to flip.

(33:20):
Yeah, exactly. I mean, they had the best
equipment, you know, money couldbuy whatever.
But the whole purpose of a CrossFit is to not need that
much stuff. You're supposed to be this is LA
this. Is an LA, This is an LA, so you
know, so he reaches out to me a couple weeks before they're
supposed to open. So hey, can you build this
website? Like sure, our budget is $1000.
I'm like total, total. I'm like, you're killing me,

(33:40):
absolutely killing me. And he was a friend of mine, so
I did him a favor. But you know, but it's a second,
it's an afterthought. You know, it's like you, you're
this new location in LA which, you know, if you like point to a
map, there's, you know, 20 otherCrossFit, you know, gyms within
a, you know. Who have who are putting
exorbitant amount of funding behind this?
Who have Well, look, you know, this is really hard to explain

(34:01):
and I think I wish all business it it takes one of two things.
It takes time or money. Are you willing to put the time
to learn to do this yourself? No, then you got to pay to do it
like I so I had a buddy. He taught me how to use
WordPress. I designed my own site for this
show. And when he started explaining
to me was, look, WordPress has SEO built into it.
So when you do your blog post, which all I was doing was taking
these episodes, putting videos, all these different things and

(34:23):
putting them out, he goes, as long as you're scoring this,
wait till you see what happens. That was his only advice.
So what I started doing was I started learning how to write
blog pages for SEO. Every if I've done 100 episodes
and I have 100 blog posts, Google thinks I'm a freaking
expert and I haven't even started promoting yet because it
is putting all this content and nowadays YouTube part of Google.
So they're starting to factor that into it.

(34:43):
All of a sudden they're seeing the voice of a podcast that gets
100,000 downloads. So all of a sudden it's a voice
of authority. So you see this, but I have no
agenda for the website. It doesn't.
People don't even know it exists.
I just started doing it to do it.
So it it works for me. But if you want to open a
CrossFit gym in two weeks with $1000 budget like you better,
you better trade, do a training course to learn how to do this
yourself. It's not.

(35:03):
Doesn't work that way. Well, that's, that's another,
you know, big part of my business are the people who, you
know, they, they think that theycan DIY it And, and that's where
I really try to sell my clients.I'm not the most expensive, not
the least expensive, but you know, it's just me.
So I'm not an agency. I don't have overhead or very
little overhead. So I, I try to price myself to
be very competitive, you know, for the small businesses,

(35:24):
because I'm a small business. I mean, I, when I started, you
know, I had expenses and all this stuff, a lot of my clients
will come to me and say, well, Itried it on Wix, I tried it on
squares Wix. I thought I could be a DIY or
it's like we have a business to run you.
You if you're not going to put it's 1 foot in and 1 foot out or
you can't have one foot in one foot out, you.
Know and and there's not a ton of web designers coming out of

(35:44):
college these days We've passed that bandwagon.
They're all employed. They're they're writing AI
prompts now. So you can't just think you're
gonna hire somebody at 30 grand to build a website for the world
doesn't work that way. I can't find them.
If you if you know some, please send them my way.
I'd rather do that than to pay the freaking amount of money I'm
paying my web designer to do a bad job.
Yeah, it it's, you know, the hardest thing is for me to tell
somebody that your website that you built is absolutely awful.

(36:06):
Yeah, it's doing nothing for you.
Had a had a potential client reached out to me last week.
They're importing wines from Croatia, one of the only.
Croatian wines are good wines. Yeah.
And you know, as far as I know, they're the only ones in the
Southeast. I used to have a client that she
was the only one. So yeah, we built this website.
You know, can you come and kind of finish up the e-commerce part
of it? So, you know, they give me the

(36:27):
URL. Look at it.
I'm from Boston. I can be pretty blunt, but I
also try to kind of, you know, walk.
Yeah, a little bit. And like, your logo is this it?
It's garbage. You know you're it's 5
paragraphs of why somebody should buy your wine and so you
know how. So let me just throw this in
here and I want to go to break. But one of the things I found
like when you conduct business that way, the only sensitivity

(36:51):
is price. And you're making yourself a
race to the bottom because you're commoditizing the
service, which you have, right? If you're not saying, if you're
saying this is Croatian wine, it's cheaper than time around,
you should buy it. Great, there's a business for
that. But if you don't have scale,
then why are you killing yourself to do business?
People want curated experiences,whether they want like it or
not. And the only way you curate
experience is to have pictures of Croatia and explain the
different places. And hey, do you know what's

(37:12):
right across the street the, the, the, the Mediterranean Sea
from Italy. Like they need that curation.
And a website does a good job. But if not, all you are doing is
creating a commoditization and your price.
Price is the only sensitivity. So yeah, go sell on Amazon.
If you're the cheapest people are going to buy it doesn't mean
you're going to make any money. So that's a good note to leave
it You listen to the marketing mement on action one, O 6, three
and we will be right back. Big news pepperoni fans, Marco's

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Now back to the marketing Mad Men on Extra One O 6 Three FM.
Welcome back to the marketing Mad Men, an extra one O 6 three
Nick Constantino here with JasonSeer.
And we're going to, we're going to finish this conversation up

(38:21):
with some more practical advice for listeners because we haven't
done a web design episode. I've seen good ones, I've seen
bad ones. It changes so quickly.
Like you talked about, dynamic content was huge.
And I'm not saying it's not big now.
That's why a lot of people are doing podcasts and video because
those are fit into these algorithms, algorithms.
But but what are some things that just you're seeing them
when you're doing design, you'relike, how are people still

(38:42):
making these mistakes? What are some examples of?
Even if it's technical, even if it's just, what are some
mistakes that keep popping up that are really detrimental but
hard for people to comprehend? Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing
I see really. And you know, you asked me for
some horror stories. I'm trying to think, but it's
people were just putting too much content on their website.

(39:04):
USA TODAY. I don't know if they still have
this. Years ago they used to have the
tagline and economy of words. And when I, you know, a client
comes to me and say, hey, we have this website, can you help
us update it or, you know, buildus a new website.
And I go on there and it's 5-6 paragraphs long about why I
should use them for whatever it is they're doing.
I don't have time for that. You have 20 to 30 seconds to

(39:25):
capture my attention and anybodyelse's attention.
Why do you have this much content?
Does that frustrate you? Because that one of the things
that AI is the best at is condensing words.
It is one of the best strengths is you can put 6 paragraphs in
and say hey, make this SEO compelling in three sentences
and it will do a pretty damn good job of doing.
That I do that I use that I mean, so when my clients don't
want to pay for somebody to write their content, I am

(39:47):
coaching them and I'm asking theright questions and I'll, you
know, plug it into 8 to AI and, you know, spit out something
and, you know, kind of molded and, you know, caress a little
bit to make it and Polish it a little bit better.
But yeah, I mean it really, it'sjust it's so much information
that is, I guess probably the biggest mistake I'm seeing.
You know, brevity, my opinion iskey for a really successful and

(40:09):
and effective website. Not having a plan, you know,
saying I need a new website and not truly understanding your
client. You know what I've been really
good at the past few years is, is, is helping my clients
develop client personas. Pre COVID had a a client.
Not a very sexy industry, but hesold nasal spray.

(40:30):
And when we were developing his website, I sent him an e-mail,
you know, asking him who's your client?
What is your client right now? I was trying to, you know,
develop or find stock photography and all that.
So he sent me an e-mail. It was really short, but it was
something like, you know, it's amarried woman in her late 30s.
She drives an Audi. She makes 6 figures salary.

(40:52):
And, you know, like all these, like, just weird details.
I thought he was messing with me.
How about somebody who has allergies?
Wouldn't that be a good target or not?
That too, but so I started asking him about it and and
actually his his company had hadwon an award from Burt Bees,
Burt's Bees, whatever. And they he did like this three
or four day marketing boot camp.And one of the things that they

(41:14):
did was develop a persona for who's buying his product.
And that was their persona, super specific, seemed very
silly at the time. But knowing that, you know, like
I think one of the things with, you know, she does yoga and
whatever. So knowing that now I can, you
know, find stock photography, I can help develop content.
You also know that those people are more likely to spend at a

(41:35):
higher margin. So there are things that go into
that process that you didn't. At least you didn't.
And again, if that's the only person that's actually an easier
thing to market towards. Yeah.
And so, you know, my frustrationwith a lot of clients is they
don't understand their client. You know those egos.
Yeah. And it's just, it's like, if
you're not understanding who your client is, it, it's no
surprise to me that your websitehas not been, has not helped

(41:58):
you, has not really been effective.
And so I think that's, that's one of the biggest thing and
that's really a business thing, you know, but they're still not,
you know, they just don't understand their clients and
they're not using, they don't have the knowledge to understand
what to put on their website. And so it's just a hodgepodge
of, of whatever the other thing.And, and I mentioned this to
you, you know, affairs that I use the story brand framework

(42:20):
from Donald Miller as my, like, that is how I design my
websites. And without going, I mean, I
could go into it for a long time, but the whole story of
brand framework is positioning yourself as the guide.
OK, so your client has a problemand you're their guide to help,
you know, solve that problem. And so a lot of websites, a lot

(42:40):
of people, including myself, before I I started doing the
story brand framework was talking about yourself.
Like, yeah, I have 30 years of years of experience.
I'm not. Acknowledging the problem that
they have first. It's not about them.
Yeah, exactly. I can do this, I can do that, I
can do whatever. And so now what you're, what I
do is I, I have my clients out that we developed a persona and
then I start coaching them through the whole story brand

(43:01):
framework. And, and we're, we're, we're
positioning them to, you know, sell their product or service to
help a problem that that person has when they come on the
website. So it's, you know, all the
websites. I don't have any specific horror
stories, but it's really just too much content, too confusing,
too long to read. You know, you're not no calls to

(43:22):
action. I don't know what to do.
I'm on your website. I got a problem.
I don't even know how to call you.
You know that you fill out a form that's either super short
or 10 pages long and you know it.
It's either bad advice or they DIY D it, or they just had a
designer who built the website but didn't really truly
understand. I think, I think curation and
I'm going to keep going to this people like a curated experience

(43:44):
for everything that they do in life, right?
We're in a very high end part ofthe world.
There's a lot of money. People don't want to just go.
Nobody wants to go to a restaurant and just see six
things and get a burger. They want to be curated.
They want the chef to put together this exquisite meal
with all these, these pairings and all this stuff.
And I think when you think aboutit, you have to curate it for
but for those avatars, right? Because if you know that the

(44:05):
avatar 1 is a female, then don'tput 6 dudes on the front
Exactly. You have to curate.
So you have to understand who your audience is, how to curate
for them. But I think one of the other
problems is, is that the way I try to set up most of what I do
is short, medium and long form content that is based on the
different parts of the sales funnel.
So you start with branding, right?
All you're trying to do is hook people 60 seconds.

(44:25):
If you think you're putting morethan that, no one's paying
attention to that's the TikTok generation.
All you're trying to do is grab their attention.
You just got our attention. It's what you do in the shortest
thing and nice thing to grab catch their eyes.
The mid form is for the people that in the consideration set,
they're trying to move down to the purchase.
So that is more longer form. Still brief, 3 minutes, 2323
minutes, but that's taking what their problems potentially could

(44:45):
be and giving them solutions. The longer form, once you get
them to the longer form, This ispure call to action time.
So this is the service. This is how you do it, but
you're still putting it to them as content.
You want to make them think it was their idea to call you, not
you telling them to call you. So if you follow that way on a
website to each page, so your front your your main site quick
to get their attention. The next page is this is some

(45:06):
content based. This and the next book of the
appointment page should be the one with the most information
because if they've gone to this point they are likely to make a
purchase or at least more likelyto no.
I think you're right. I mean the TikTok generation.
I for one am not a TikTok user, but I, you know, scroll through
YouTube shorts, look on Instagram, you know, videos.
We have such short attention spans now.
We're all trained to scroll. And, you know, if you don't

(45:28):
capture that person's attention within that 20 to 30 seconds,
even less really, you know, you're just it's not going to be
effective and it's not going to work.
And so. But I think people are also
nauseated by that. They don't like their show, our
attention spans, they don't likegetting in these dopamine drips
where they're sitting there looking at an hour of Instagram
being like, I just wasted an hour of my time.
So I think I think you're right and I think you have to play to

(45:50):
it, but you also have to give them the option to learn a
little bit more and maybe learn about you.
And I think that's why what you do in the community is so
important nowadays. I think the the about about us
page without nothing about you is not a good look either tell
you about your family. People want to know they're
buying from somebody that they know or they trust.
You know these communities. If you're involved in a
community that should come out because people want to see if

(46:11):
they're in your community, they're more likely to buy from
you. My, my father-in-law is a very
he's retired, but he's a very successful business owner in
Marietta. And one thing he said to be
years ago really resonated with me is that I built a website and
my own website is horrible. Like I don't, I don't practice
anything. I preach and what you know, I
think it was like the second iteration, my website when I
started my business did not havea picture of me and like nothing

(46:32):
about me and we had an about page, but there's no pictures
whatever. He's like when I do business, I
want to know who I'm doing business with.
I want to see who you are, you know, And so you know, it's
yeah, I mean having, you know, agood about page videos convert
very well. I know you know, when I'm
surfing on the web and if I'm looking at a product, if I see a
45 second to 62nd video about how your product is going to

(46:55):
make my life easier, whatever problem is to have that's going
to convert better than I don't like to read.
You know, I don't like if I haveto read more than a a paragraph.
You lost me. But, but that being said, if
you're about to spend a couple grand, 10 grand, you're going to
read and you're going to make sure you do it right.
So just to get their attention is a different thing.
Yeah, look, I, I think this has been great.
So we got about a minute left and with a good time in the

(47:17):
business cycle to realize that they need somebody like you and
how they can get a hold of you. Yeah, so my website
isjasonsteredesign.com. You can e-mail me
jasonjasonsteredesign.com, go tomy website and yeah, reach out
to me there. And I work with nonprofits,
small businesses, big businesses, large businesses.
I do a lot of different work forclients and love it man.

(47:39):
Well, I appreciate it. I'm glad we got to a website
design episode. I think it's pretty clear these
days what's a good one and what's a bad one.
So go poke around if you find something you like.
Imitation is the finest form of flattery.
Don't try to reinvent the wheel.And you've been listening to the
marketing man, man an extra 106 three and we'll catch you next
week. Big news pepperoni fans, Marco's

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