October 8, 2025 • 27 mins
Nick Constantino and Brian Jungles dive into the surprising resurgence of direct mail marketing. From data-driven targeting to fraud-free impressions, they unpack why this “unsexy” channel is outperforming digital in today’s AI-saturated landscape. Learn how tactile media is reclaiming its place in full-funnel strategies and why marketers should rethink their approach to brand and lead generation.✅ Key Takeaways:• Direct mail offers 100% deliverability and high-value targeting using PII and layered data.• Digital ad fraud is rampant—up to 50% of traffic can be fake or wasted.• Direct mail impressions are tactile, memorable, and often live in homes for weeks.• Integrated campaigns (mail + digital + CTV + retargeting) outperform siloed efforts.• Unique offers and strong creative are essential—don’t reuse billboard/web ads.• Measurement tools like QR codes, call tracking, and A/B testing are now standard.• Success requires repetition—one-off mailers don’t work.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
They say marketing is a madman'sgame, so now we turned it over
to the Marketing Mad Men with Nick Constantino and Trip Joe.
Welcome to the marketing Mad Men.
Nick Constantino here. I'm with Brian Jungles.
Brian, how you doing bud? Doing well, thanks for having.
Me good. All right, so we're going to
talk about another one of those things that's left the lexicon
(00:21):
of sexiness in the marketing world.
I probably said the least sexy, but this is actually the least
form of sexy that there is out there.
And we are here to explain why it actually is indeed sexy, why
it works. And my sexiness might not always
be the best thing. So, Brian, want to quickly
introduce yourselves? Hey guys, I'm Brian Jungles.
I own City Publications in Atlanta live here in in Atlanta
(00:42):
with my family. I went to UGA and, you know,
excited to tell you about how wide direct mails making a big
comeback in the marketing world.Yeah, so I think we're we're
having this conversation at a good time.
I think it was about May or Junewhen the Google started putting
out their AI summaries. The world went crazy because all
of a sudden, all these people, for the longest time, they were
(01:03):
so they were masters of digital and blah, blah, blah.
All of a sudden, none of it mattered because AI was scamming
the Internet, doing the work foryou.
And they saw a huge, huge drop in business, right?
So, you know, I think we can approach it from a couple of
different standpoints. But you know, as an opening
point, why don't you say like two or three of the top
misconceptions that people have about direct mail and then we
(01:23):
can kind of impact each of those1 by 1?
Yeah. So I would say the first one in
with my digital marketing background, this is wide
attractive need of the industry is that you can't apply the same
kind of targeting that you can in other channels, right.
What I've learned and what I think was one of the most
valuable points is the direct mail targeting list is actually
in many ways higher, more high, higher value than a lot of what
(01:45):
you can do in digital channels, especially social media where
we're doing cohort based marketing.
So because we need personally identifiable information to mail
somebody something their address, their name and we can
also associate other data pointswith that.
We have very refined targeting. We get the same kind of data
from the credit bureaus, from interest based data form fills,
online subscriptions and we can layer all that on to postage
(02:08):
information to optimize your spend and your routes.
And ultimately it's it's basically 100% deliverability on
in direct mail. Yeah, yeah.
And I think that like most things, the outputs are only as
good as the inputs. So you have to have good, clean
data for any of this stuff to work.
Anyone who tells you that they're going to magically find
data in the ether and come out there in full, you need good CRM
(02:28):
systems. You need ways to put set up your
own cohorts. You need ways to find how much
money they've spent by zip code.By this, there's things, yes,
you can layer in Amex and creditcard data and all this other
stuff. I mean, shoot, Zillow knows
house values nowadays. There's a way to layer
everything in, but you have to make sure you're clear with who
you're targeting before you can get the output of who this is
going to. So I think that's it.
(02:49):
But I think I will say I personally didn't know how
creepy it was now seeing things from the other end as the
marketer, I used to see things as the market T and like it was
creepy then by now as the marketer, because we have such a
large client base. I mean, the stuff that you could
pull on people and the stuff that people are trying to sell
you that they could pull on people.
I mean, you're just going to have to come to terms.
And we've said this before. If you're getting something for
(03:10):
free, you and your data are the commodity.
That's the cash exchange. That is the tenure.
It is it is you that is doing that.
So like most people said, like I'm sure your parents told you,
there's nothing free in the world.
All right, so we have data layering, I'm sure most people
don't think of it that way, but let's, let's let's first dive a
little bit deeper into that. So one of the things as you and
I have been talking where I saw synergies was, OK, well, if you
(03:32):
have really good Geo targeting, there's ways to increase your
retargeting, but via different channels, right?
Everyone can retarget. Let's say you see an ad, they'll
follow you with an ad. That's annoying, right?
But if they follow you with an ad and then subliminally you
also get one on your kitchen table and then it follows you
CTV, that's kind of a different story.
So I think that's definitely part of the strategy.
But talk about some other talk about the tech, talk about how
(03:52):
the way the post service works of optimizing those routes.
Yeah, Yeah. So I mean, it really all comes
from the data, right. So the ability to layer that,
all the demographic psychographic data to know who
you're targeting and then make most efficient use of the spend.
If you think about it, when you have the home information,
there's a lot of attributes thatare relevant to your business
(04:14):
that can qualify people or disqualify them from being A
and. I have to imagine just the
margin for error is probably less than it is on the Internet.
One, because there's not as muchfraud because it's harder to be
fraudulent. And two, there's no money in
being fraudulent, right? The money is in setting up a
Google search partner network and clicking on your own ads and
stealing the money. And Google doesn't give a crap
(04:34):
because they're getting the other side of it, right?
That's where the fraud is, yeah.Exactly.
So if you think about other ad channels, right, if you think
about the number of impressions,we have this conversation all
the time. When you look at true ROI from a
campaign like this, right, If you look at cost per impression
or sheer volume of impressions, right, you take that with a gram
of salt. Yeah.
On digital channels, e-mail, think about deliverability.
(04:54):
Yeah, is it if it's even landingin an I?
Can I can tell you right now it is right now, the biggest change
in marketing has got to be e-mail.
Everyone's on Gmail, everyone has a drop into a promotions
folder, right? Or a social folder.
Nobody's opening those up. They're tired of getting all the
spam. So e-mail, I have to imagine
that the e-mail response rates, unless you're either really good
at it or your scale is so massive and national that you
(05:17):
can, you can get 10,000 of sending a blast of people to
click just because you have sucha national scale.
I have to imagine that's gettingmurkier and murkier.
Yeah. And that's a big trend is, you
know, there's actually businesses that are built on
replacing the e-mail kind of retargeting or reengagement
campaigns with direct mail, so automation into reengaging folks
with an impression that it'll actually see.
(05:37):
So that's e-mail. And then you talk about some of
the other digital channels wherejust you mentioned fraud, right.
So we're tracking to $200 billion in fraud in the industry
and by 2030, almost half, between 20 and 30% of any given
campaign can be wasted given it could be bots, it's.
More, it's more than that. I promise you I have I have
clicks I have fraud protection on right now you're talking 50%
(05:58):
of the traffic. There's mechanisms you can pull,
there's leverage you can pull Google and Facebook tend to be
somewhat patient in giving you some money back in credits, but
just between either it's not fake traffic, but it's
fraudulent traffic because they're coming out and staying
for one second. What kind of traffic is that
that you're paying for? Or they have they're they're
bouncing to too many IP addresses, which is blatantly
farm. There's a there's a million
(06:18):
ways, but every time the tech gets better, Google's and
Facebook's excuses get better also.
That's right, right. Like, Oh, they're just the
marketplace. You're the one attracting all
this fraud. Oh, that sounds, that sounds
good. Right.
So when you, when you think about these options, you think
about #1 the ability to target so you know who you're reaching
and you're intelligent about. Am I getting this in front of my
customer and then guaranteeing an impression.
(06:39):
So you think about, you know, putting it out there and who's
seeing it. Is it even a human?
Yeah. And the best or the best or
worst case scenario, either way you look at it an impression and
say you're on your social media,they're easy to scroll away.
The best case scenario with a direct mail case you.
See it and you throw it in the garbage.
You see it and throw it in the garbage.
You see it when you're throwing it in the garbage.
Everyone. I do this, I do this rendition
(07:01):
all the time because people go, yeah, just throw this away, OK.
Go to your mailbox. I don't know how long your
driveway is, but you're walking out, flipping through, and you
got this and this right. And here's a brand impression.
And you go, OK, here's the message.
Here's the value. I'm interested or I'm not
interested and you can discard it.
Yeah, or you could say I need totalk to my wife about.
Google counts that as not only in view, it's an engaged view
(07:22):
because it's more than three seconds what you spent with it.
So, so Google, they're counting that and there's.
Caveats everywhere, right? Like for me, usually my wife
picks up the mail. I look, I see it immediately,
and I RIP it up and throw it in the garbage.
But I am seeing it as an impression.
You're getting an impression. Is on it.
It stands out to you to some capacity, and I think that ads
in this space it's a little different like the Internet.
You're expecting a certain because it's around other things
(07:43):
here. I bet you bad ads work really
well. Really.
I'm not cuz you're like Oh my God this is terrible but staring
at it. It's kind of funny when, yeah,
when you look at their performance and you know, it's
attention grabbing, right? So you got 4 seconds or less to
make that point. But the better case that is not
possible with other ad media is that these can live, and they
often do live on the counter, ina drawer on the kitchen table
(08:04):
for weeks. And we know because we see this
ad tracking or we see the call tracking, we put QR codes, you
need phone numbers on here. So we see this come through.
And I had it when I, when I got in the business, it was late
January into February. We had a customer, we had
multiple customers. We hadn't advertised since the
prior October. And they're getting calls
rolling in weekly because peoplewere saving them and then the
calendar turned or they got their bonus or whatever, and
(08:26):
then they called. I'll tell you, I'm waiting for
trees right now. It was the middle of the summer.
I knew and messed up my grass. I'm like, you know what, there's
going to be less demand in the winter.
I'm waiting for the winter, right?
And that's when I'm going to getit done.
So I completely and I think one of the big problems with really
home improvement got really hit really hard coming out of 20
because so many people had extramoney.
They're doing all this work on their house that a lot of those
(08:46):
projects got speed and they thought that that rise from 20
to 21 was going to last forever.Well, what actually happened was
because so many people were in demand for their services, it
was easy to capture all of thesepeople.
Now you got to go back to creating your own demand and you
got to be back to your own brandmarketing.
And I think one of the things that is across the best brand
marketers are the ones succeeding the most now.
(09:07):
So how does something like this,how do you tell people?
Because it used to all be about conversion, which it should be.
Don't get me wrong, you should convert, but I'm sure they're
like, OK, well, I expect this many conversions and are you
having the conversation of OK, well, this is a little bit of
brand marketing Also. Tell me about how you overcome
some of those objections with these clients.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know, depending on the
design of the the campaign, you know, it can really serve
(09:30):
multiple purposes, right. So yeah, in some sense, you
know, broad awareness if you've got, if you're giving a message,
yeah, it. Better be freaking very
compelling if you're just thinking you're doing broad
brand awareness. If you're being broad, like I
think, and I want you to finish this statement, but to me, the
most important things are you have to understand what you're
doing, right? If you're putting a really good
buffer on anything works, yes, right.
Anything works, right. And if you have something that's
(09:51):
really good, a really strong ad,somebody is going to look at it.
Those will never change across any kind of mediums, right?
So this is just an extension of it, but go on.
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, we're we're
what a postcard does is gives a trusted invitation and right
that's it's reliable. It's people see that there is a
there's a durability to it. There's a tactile experience
(10:13):
with the ad where you're engaging more senses of of their
more of their $0.05, right so. Now you put smell in.
Are we putting Cologne on? Are we going to do pheromones?
Maybe it's. Possible, Yeah, some of the
Cologne on there, but so just making it memorable, right.
So even from a brand experience,that's one thing, but driving
(10:34):
these are very strong for driving leads.
Number one, it's the it's a targeted nature of it, right?
The ability to to hang on to these things and what Speaking
of lead generation, that the, the thing that the conversation
I have with people because, you know, one of the objections is,
hey, I tried direct mail. It didn't work.
And a lot of times I go, well, how'd you do it?
And they go, I sent out a postcard campaign to 2000
people, you know, found a mail list, whatever, hit these
(10:56):
neighborhoods. And I go, OK, you know 2000
people one time, right? Like, do you do Med ads?
Do you? Do that's not even, that's not
even $0.50 worth of ads. Correct.
Yeah. So, so, you know, there, there's
no doubt this works like other advertising.
The repeat impressions are key. And that's why it's important to
work with a business that knows the data and and has a
relationship with the USPS. And it's been doing this for 30
(11:17):
years. Yeah, because there are options
that USPS has a every door direct mail program, which some
some of the viewers might know about, for example.
This is a way to execute and if you look on a cost per basis,
you can, it might be lower, but you're it's easy to waste a lot
of impressions and then you kindof get into why are we even
doing this? Like e-mail marketing for, you
know, some of these other channels, you get a very low
(11:38):
cost per impression. But why?
What if you're not? Yeah, those work if you're doing
with hundreds of millions. Of impressions, but it's too.
Expensive on that basis because unlike something like the
Internet, really your cost is nothing right to get a banner ad
like it's already you're alreadypaying for everything but your
cost per leave for this is the bail which unfortunately has
gone up. I think most people know the
post office is a disaster. But that being said, these are
(11:59):
really important for the post office.
I have to imagine sometimes deliver these to a pretty good
capacity. Yeah, so a couple.
Of things, yeah. So we get through our
relationship, launching a relationship with the post
office with some of the biggest printers in the US Our rates are
going to be lower than what you'd see just in Atlanta.
I'm doing over 50 million distinct pieces of direct mail
this year. So we're doing it at scale and
(12:20):
and we're in the loop on all theincentive programs that we have
and we're qualifying and we're getting volume discounts.
So it's very important to managethat budget and it's done
through using a provider. Provider like city publications.
She's got a local presence and operates on a national.
Scale, I have to imagine that the barriers to entry to the
industry. Are pretty high, yeah.
It's not easy to just start one of these like you want to be a
digital agency, you snap your fingers and you can be one
(12:41):
That's right. Nowadays even connect to TV
every everyone on earth was likeI you could only watch on my
platform and it's like every daysomeone it was like Netflix is
mine, Amazon is mine wide open world, bidding, bidding,
bidding. So it's kind of bullshit.
It really is so. I'll tell a story about when I
got in the industry because you know, I used to work at Adobe,
(13:02):
so selling digital marketing software to Fortune one
hundreds. And you know, so coming in this
I go, OK, obviously an opportunity to innovate here.
And really in my mind thought, well, it's kind of do more
digital. You get out there in the
landscape and you realize exactly what you said.
There are 1,000,000 digital agencies out there and you
better. It's a race to the best.
(13:22):
It's a race to the bottom. It's the bottom commoditized.
It's been commoditized. It's price is the only
sensitivity. And now everything's on its head
like we talked about with AI, where everything you thought you
knew is out the window, right? And then there's a retreat to,
hey, listen, like if I want to get my brand message out there
and I want to make sure I'm reaching consumer, eliminate
fraud, eliminate having to work through algorithms, maybe this
(13:43):
kind of tactile nature is a goodway to do it.
And I realized that that's a differentiator.
Yeah. And I think that's the way I
think about my digital girlfriends too.
It's just not the same. It's not the same as the real
thing. Yeah.
So you got to keep them both around.
So the so I think that's really,but that's really the the
opportunity here is there's a paradigm of historical direct
mail in the era of the Yellow Pages where, you know, it was
(14:06):
print marketing and then it was digital marketing.
And now there's there's still not a lot of businesses out
there that are thinking about what about the and instead of
the org, Yeah. And how do we take that high
value audience, the ability to deliver, yeah, and reach them in
more channels? Well, this is the way I look at
it, right? First of all, there's a couple
of things. You look at radio, you look at
billboard, you're reaching someone in their car.
You don't know what kind of consideration they have.
They're driving home and they'redriving to work.
(14:27):
But I like, I actually really like audio and radio because
there's less distractions because you're in your car,
you're trapped, right? You can't do anything right
unless you're that one asshole on the phone on the highway
that's driving like this going on the get honked at.
From the. Billboard you're stuck there.
So you're one of the things about home is, is that that's
when you're thinking about thesethings like when the roof's
leaking and you have this thing in front of you or you're
looking outside and you see the trees like you're reaching them
(14:48):
at a point where they're most likely to make a purchase.
So it works really well with radio with fast food, because
what do you think you're hungry?Like fast food on TV is
branding, but call to action is,hey, $0.99 coming right now.
Like those things exist. So I think it's not just
different points on the funnel like a brand.
And then and then when they're in their consideration phase,
it's also hit them at home, hit them on their mobile.
You have to hit them in all these different places, which
(15:09):
brings bring us to some of the stuff that you and I have been
talking about about more. How do we round out this
approach? How do we bring in some other
modern techniques to bring things like pixel tracking in
and impressions and retargeting and go after look alike
audiences? And I think as as you and I kind
of develop out some of this technology, you know, I don't
want to reveal too much because we're going to have a grand
reveal at some point. But I do think that the industry
(15:33):
has really separated itself too.There are these full functioning
digital agencies who've gotten very complacent and lazy and
don't want to push boundaries. They want to what's ever easiest
for them and they're not seeing opportunities in something like
this. What they're telling you is
don't buy direct mail. Where better?
When you ask why, you had no answer, right?
Don't buy radio. Now those same digital agencies,
(15:53):
though, are begging people to dothese things because it makes
them look like they're better. And then they're going to take
credit for it because I've seen it in real time.
Yeah, yeah. And that's the other trend.
So, yeah, not only when I got inthe industry did I realize
there's that, you know, there's a, you could, you know, turn
around and hit a digital agency.They are coming every time they
go, Oh, I heard direct mails make a comeback.
I'd love to talk to you. So it is a, it's a unique
(16:14):
offering. It's, it's always been there,
right? But it's, it's kind of been
flown under the radar for a few years and it's, it's a, it's a
really cool time to, to take another look at it.
I think the other thing you mentioned kind of timing of
receiving something in your homeabout your home.
You know, a lot of the business we do today is with home
services companies around Atlanta.
And you know, by nature you talkabout, you know, welcoming
(16:36):
something in your home or accepting something in your
home. That's what you're doing when
you're hiring plumber or electrician, somebody to do a
remodel in your house, right? So this is kind of introducing
that same trust, getting that brand in the home.
Guilty by association. Right, exactly.
And it's, it also adds some credibility.
You know, if you think about, you mentioned radio or or TV
(16:58):
advertising, whether linear or, or the top, there's a level of
credibility to it right where they're on the right.
If you're on the right things, and nowadays you can't even
control where you're going usually, sometimes you end on
smucky on freaking cinema. You just don't know that's true,
Yeah. But so you see a brand, you see,
say you're a growing a growing brand, right?
You maybe just you did a millionrevenue where you're on your
(17:19):
growth journey. You want to be legitimate, you
want to be the brand. You see a, you know, a quality
ad on on the on the on the TV oryou hear on the radio.
Oh, those guys, they got a commercial.
Wow. Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's. Step one of the journey, I think
for me, those are the sports teams are the pinnacles of that.
When you're with Georgia or withyou at the Braves, that's when
you're playing with the big boys.
Exactly. Or you're on like Monday Night
Football broadcast, right? If you're on cricket on like a
(17:39):
Tuesday afternoon at 2:00 in themorning, I don't think we've
made it yet. Well, it's a spot, it's a start.
But when you contrast to OK, I saw a million, the only way I
know this brand is because I seelike a flashing monkey banner
ad, right? It's like, OK, if you get a
really high quantity, you again get to the back to the tactical
nature. You look and you feel and and
then you see these guys in multiple places, right?
It brings a level authenticity to the brand and it's a trusted
(18:02):
media in in the home. Yeah, yeah.
No, I, I love it. And I think, but ultimately, as
the years go by, I think a lot of this retro, let's call it
stuff is coming back for a reason.
And I think there was a little bit of a, you know, a wolf in
sheep's clothing with a lot of these, with a lot of these
Internet companies that were promising this XYZ didn't really
know how they were doing it didn't know.
(18:23):
And they don't have to show any work.
Like you can't argue. Like, what are you going to say?
The post office lied. Like you can't argue.
There's things are tactile in someone's hand.
Yes, they ripped and they chose to throw it out, But that's very
different than me having an ad Walker on my phone that never
even sees it. That's right.
So County. Has their pressure anyway.
And well, you know, even this podcast, you know how many
people are going to download this and not listen to this?
Like, I know the numbers, it's an exist.
It's a lot of people, I mean a lot of percentage that don't
(18:44):
listen, but they're still givingcredit for that.
I'm not making money, but they're getting credit for it.
So, you know, I think we just got to go back.
I think what as long as it's part of a robust, broad full
funnel marketing approach, there's a space for everything.
I think the price points at which you ask for.
So now let's kind of spin this around.
I think we've done a good job ofexplaining what it is, how it
stands. So what advice would you give to
somebody that's on the other side that's saying, hey, I'm
(19:05):
thinking about doing direct mail.
I want to go first because there's one that really pisses
me off. My advice, if you were going to
do an offer, don't do the same offer that's on a billboard on a
website. People don't feel special.
Do a unique offer. Make it something that only
exists there so people feel special.
People want authenticity and they want to feel special.
(19:26):
Right now, if you put the same stupid ad that is everywhere
else, you are doing nothing to help.
I don't even care if it's 499 and 500.
It's got to be something a little bit different.
Otherwise, all you're doing is saying that that my my price
should be discounted in this price to begin with.
Yeah, that's that's a great point on the offer of design and
the creative, which is very important.
I think the number one thing that I run into that'll
(19:47):
encourage any marketer is, you know, we talked about and or
we're not saying like so if you have to think about outbound
advertising and so you got, you know, pushing ads out.
So that's a direct Mailer or some of this, you know, with
Google ads or wherever you're you're displaying.
But you got to, no matter what, you're driving people in, right?
So you have a web presence, no matter how much you pay
(20:07):
attention to it and the customerbehavior.
We'll put tracking phone numberson here and people call.
We'll see the calls come in. And that's still a high.
Especially with the boomer generation, that's a high
propensity customer behavior. But more and more, that Google
business profile is the centerpiece of your reputation,
no matter how people hear about you.
So I would say if you're going to invest in direct mail, number
(20:31):
one, make it a part of an integrated marketing campaign.
Yeah, but also make sure that you've firmed up your foundation
because people will inspect yourbrand and leads will leak and
fall out even no matter how great your ad is.
If you got 5 reviews, three of them are bad from six years ago.
Well. I'll give you 1 further, like
when, What if you're this competitor who just made it to
the big boys? Well, the bigger boys are going
(20:52):
to be there just trying to capture every name recognition
you have because you don't have that brand recognition.
So, you know, again, I, I think that that foundation is a huge
part of all of this. And, and you know, it may not be
what Brian wants here because he's selling this stuff, but
like, don't advertise if you don't have that stuff.
Don't even if you think you're going to go out there and not
have a Google My Business that you're not posting pictures to,
that's an updated that you're not on every single different
(21:13):
directory site and you're going to go out there and you're going
to start advertising. You might as well take the money
and light it on fire like I promise you will.
You will hit one or two big months off of it because some of
this is luck and some of busier competitors come back.
But in the long run, if you watch it, it is literally like
going and chasing penny stocks in the stock market.
Yeah, it'll look like it pays off until it's not there and
there's nothing and you build noactually equity whatsoever.
(21:33):
Right. Yeah, I think the Omni thinking
about your brand and Omni channel nature is totally
mandatory these days and that's why I would I never argue, I
never try to you know there are certain advantages that direct
mail has over certain other advertising media.
Yeah, but if it's. Better than it is on top of
anything, correct? If you fit it in and there's
probably making things it works better with and like if you,
(21:55):
let's put it this way. If you have Geo targeting
software, if you have something like a Clavio workflow where you
can match emails and addresses and you can put out a segment to
Facebook, Google through some ground targeting with that all
hitting people with the same message from the same point, the
propensity to succeed is just X potentially higher, and you're
not actually spending more money, you're being more
targeted, Yeah. And I, I don't know if any of my
(22:16):
former colleagues at Adobe will end up watching this, but I bet
people are laughing because thisis the same conversation we have
with the, the chief marketing officer organizations and the
biggest companies in the world, right?
They've got this data. And, and in their case, it's
their data. At least they have the data, but
it's still the, the, the Holy Grail for marketing.
And the puzzle is how do I get the same message to the same
person across the same channels?And I think many marketers today
(22:37):
are saying, well, I have the same kind of segmentation
materia and there's probably bigoverlap, but you have no idea
Facebook and. Nowadays Facebook and Google are
begging you to use AI where it'smaking that assumption for you,
which is actually worse. I shut it off on everything
because like, how do they how dothey know which ad is going to
work the best for me? You need right reach and you
need frequency. You can't change your message
(22:59):
and then you're going to get thesame frequency, right?
So I think that's another, I think that's a.
Well, with frequency, if you don't know that you're hitting
the same actual individual, there's no there's no repeat
impressions because it's guy A or guy that looks like IA right
these. Cookies disappear.
It's gonna get even harder. OK, so yeah, you know, let's end
with this one because I think this is.
I know I said the last one is more important and these are
(23:19):
kind of the same thing. If your copy sucks, your copy
sucks. It's not going to work to begin
with. Put time into it.
Whether it's a logo, whether it's the tactile nature, whether
it's a pretty girl or a good looking guy on, I don't care.
But put something that's going to draw the eye because like
Brian said, when you look at this, something has to grab your
eye immediately. It's just like a social media.
They say you have 3 seconds social media, they're lying.
(23:39):
You have half of a second to grab someone's attention on
social media. So make it compelling.
Don't make it boring. Make it for something that you
would grab your attention had you not been in this industry
your whole life. Send it to your children said
you know what this it is do it to a 5 year old side.
Do you have any idea what this is?
Send it to your wife or your husband who know nothing about
the industry and say with this grab your attention we get so
fucked. These business owners they know
(24:01):
what they know. They don't leave their comfort
zone and they just keep making the same thing and usually it's
because their friend in the sameindustry made the same one or
they think their buddy that's a window guy and a trigger they
should be they look the same. It never works that way.
AB test I'm sure AB testing has to work for you right?
Pay to have the four for the year and AB test 4 different
ones. You know what market research
costs? You can use marketing these
tools these days to do market research.
(24:22):
If you bet, if you bake that cost in, it's cheaper than
market research used to be. Yeah.
Let me, I'll just comment on, I think the other misconception or
something people might not know and it has to do with AB testing
is measurement here. So measurements come a long way,
right. I mentioned unique phone number
so we can track who's respondingin that particular response
mechanism, which is calling QR codes leading directly to a
(24:43):
booking page that we can track with the Pixel, for example.
But AB testing is a great, greatexample as well, right?
So if you're blanketing area andyou've taken, you know, I
usually do this many jobs over the past year, every year in
this area. Now let's try adding in a direct
mail campaign and you can measure the increment or similar
demographic targeting using thatdata platform to.
Understand, but that being said you cannot do that with one
(25:06):
with. Margin for error is too small,
have to do multiple. Seasonality.
Cannot and this is with any formof marketing.
If you think 2 weeks is your sample size, if you think saying
that one direct, all you're doing is throwing money in the
garbage like you're lighting, you may as well light it on fire
if you don't try this multiple times.
My rule of thumb, no matter whatis what I would say is 3 months
for me. But because the way you're doing
things multiple, at least three cents to have enough data to
(25:30):
make these decisions. And if you're the kind of person
who thinks you're going to get that immediate impact, you will
be taking advantage of the rest of your life because people are
going to lie to you and sell youa fake bill of goods.
If that existed, everybody wouldbe using it and it would just be
an absolute race to the bottom. That's when the truth, the
truth. If everyone uses Google, Google
jumps out of their seat. All you do is bring up the
auction costs. That's what they want.
They want everybody to use it. So I would just say that I
(25:52):
completely agree with you, but measurement can't be on your You
have to use industry standard margin for error and application
of sample size, etc. Otherwise it doesn't work.
That's right. Yeah, and don't the worst part
is the business owners say they do an AB test with what they
think is going to be the thing and they always put favoritism
to what they want it or think it's going to be.
That's right. Don't do that.
Don't you need to pay someone else to do it?
(26:13):
But be open minded in it. All right, bro.
Any any other tips to anybody that's on the fence about a
direct marketing campaign and then tell them how to find you?
Yeah, I'd say, you know, we always start with a
conversation, you know who, what, what is, what are your
business goals? What are your marketing goals?
What are your sales goals? Where are you in your growth
journey? What is the rest of your
marketing look like? And then let's figure out the
right type of campaign for you. We do it.
(26:33):
We have a number of offerings from standard campaigns that
deliver repeat impressions at a manageable cost.
We have solo campaigns that can be ultimately flexible.
We we have specialty campaigns that target cohorts like new
movers, for example. We that.
One's really. Cool data there, really cool.
So no matter where you're comingfrom, you know the
conversation's worthwhile. And like you said, and like I
said, right, I'm not shy to say maybe this is not the right time
(26:57):
to to start indirect mail. And I'll be totally upfront.
Usually those are the people that end up advertising.
Now, because I have dared you, now I'm going to advertise.
All right, Tell me how to find. You, bud.
Yeah, my e-mail is brian@citypubatl.com.
No naked pictures. We had this happen last time.
No naked pictures. I got a filter active now at
least that e-mail filter very handy.
So like we talked about so yeah,find us on LinkedIn, Instagram,
(27:22):
reach out directly. I can share my phone number as
well. So city pubatl.com, is the
website Cool? Yeah.
All right. Thank you bud.
You've been listening to the unsexiest turned sexiest episode
of the Market Man man ever. We'll catch you next time.
They say marketing is a madman'sgame, so now we turned it over
to the Marketing Mad Men with Nick Constantino and Trip Joe.
Welcome to the marketing Mad Men.
Nick Constantino here. I'm with Brian Jungles.
Brian, how you doing bud? Doing well, thanks for having.
Me good. All right, so we're going to
talk about another one of those things that's left the lexicon
(00:21):
of sexiness in the marketing world.
I probably said the least sexy, but this is actually the least
form of sexy that there is out there.
And we are here to explain why it actually is indeed sexy, why
it works. And my sexiness might not always
be the best thing. So, Brian, want to quickly
introduce yourselves? Hey guys, I'm Brian Jungles.
I own City Publications in Atlanta live here in in Atlanta
(00:42):
with my family. I went to UGA and, you know,
excited to tell you about how wide direct mails making a big
comeback in the marketing world.Yeah, so I think we're we're
having this conversation at a good time.
I think it was about May or Junewhen the Google started putting
out their AI summaries. The world went crazy because all
of a sudden, all these people, for the longest time, they were
(01:03):
so they were masters of digital and blah, blah, blah.
All of a sudden, none of it mattered because AI was scamming
the Internet, doing the work foryou.
And they saw a huge, huge drop in business, right?
So, you know, I think we can approach it from a couple of
different standpoints. But you know, as an opening
point, why don't you say like two or three of the top
misconceptions that people have about direct mail and then we
(01:23):
can kind of impact each of those1 by 1?
Yeah. So I would say the first one in
with my digital marketing background, this is wide
attractive need of the industry is that you can't apply the same
kind of targeting that you can in other channels, right.
What I've learned and what I think was one of the most
valuable points is the direct mail targeting list is actually
in many ways higher, more high, higher value than a lot of what
(01:45):
you can do in digital channels, especially social media where
we're doing cohort based marketing.
So because we need personally identifiable information to mail
somebody something their address, their name and we can
also associate other data pointswith that.
We have very refined targeting. We get the same kind of data
from the credit bureaus, from interest based data form fills,
online subscriptions and we can layer all that on to postage
(02:08):
information to optimize your spend and your routes.
And ultimately it's it's basically 100% deliverability on
in direct mail. Yeah, yeah.
And I think that like most things, the outputs are only as
good as the inputs. So you have to have good, clean
data for any of this stuff to work.
Anyone who tells you that they're going to magically find
data in the ether and come out there in full, you need good CRM
(02:28):
systems. You need ways to put set up your
own cohorts. You need ways to find how much
money they've spent by zip code.By this, there's things, yes,
you can layer in Amex and creditcard data and all this other
stuff. I mean, shoot, Zillow knows
house values nowadays. There's a way to layer
everything in, but you have to make sure you're clear with who
you're targeting before you can get the output of who this is
going to. So I think that's it.
(02:49):
But I think I will say I personally didn't know how
creepy it was now seeing things from the other end as the
marketer, I used to see things as the market T and like it was
creepy then by now as the marketer, because we have such a
large client base. I mean, the stuff that you could
pull on people and the stuff that people are trying to sell
you that they could pull on people.
I mean, you're just going to have to come to terms.
And we've said this before. If you're getting something for
(03:10):
free, you and your data are the commodity.
That's the cash exchange. That is the tenure.
It is it is you that is doing that.
So like most people said, like I'm sure your parents told you,
there's nothing free in the world.
All right, so we have data layering, I'm sure most people
don't think of it that way, but let's, let's let's first dive a
little bit deeper into that. So one of the things as you and
I have been talking where I saw synergies was, OK, well, if you
(03:32):
have really good Geo targeting, there's ways to increase your
retargeting, but via different channels, right?
Everyone can retarget. Let's say you see an ad, they'll
follow you with an ad. That's annoying, right?
But if they follow you with an ad and then subliminally you
also get one on your kitchen table and then it follows you
CTV, that's kind of a different story.
So I think that's definitely part of the strategy.
But talk about some other talk about the tech, talk about how
(03:52):
the way the post service works of optimizing those routes.
Yeah, Yeah. So I mean, it really all comes
from the data, right. So the ability to layer that,
all the demographic psychographic data to know who
you're targeting and then make most efficient use of the spend.
If you think about it, when you have the home information,
there's a lot of attributes thatare relevant to your business
(04:14):
that can qualify people or disqualify them from being A
and. I have to imagine just the
margin for error is probably less than it is on the Internet.
One, because there's not as muchfraud because it's harder to be
fraudulent. And two, there's no money in
being fraudulent, right? The money is in setting up a
Google search partner network and clicking on your own ads and
stealing the money. And Google doesn't give a crap
(04:34):
because they're getting the other side of it, right?
That's where the fraud is, yeah.Exactly.
So if you think about other ad channels, right, if you think
about the number of impressions,we have this conversation all
the time. When you look at true ROI from a
campaign like this, right, If you look at cost per impression
or sheer volume of impressions, right, you take that with a gram
of salt. Yeah.
On digital channels, e-mail, think about deliverability.
(04:54):
Yeah, is it if it's even landingin an I?
Can I can tell you right now it is right now, the biggest change
in marketing has got to be e-mail.
Everyone's on Gmail, everyone has a drop into a promotions
folder, right? Or a social folder.
Nobody's opening those up. They're tired of getting all the
spam. So e-mail, I have to imagine
that the e-mail response rates, unless you're either really good
at it or your scale is so massive and national that you
(05:17):
can, you can get 10,000 of sending a blast of people to
click just because you have sucha national scale.
I have to imagine that's gettingmurkier and murkier.
Yeah. And that's a big trend is, you
know, there's actually businesses that are built on
replacing the e-mail kind of retargeting or reengagement
campaigns with direct mail, so automation into reengaging folks
with an impression that it'll actually see.
(05:37):
So that's e-mail. And then you talk about some of
the other digital channels wherejust you mentioned fraud, right.
So we're tracking to $200 billion in fraud in the industry
and by 2030, almost half, between 20 and 30% of any given
campaign can be wasted given it could be bots, it's.
More, it's more than that. I promise you I have I have
clicks I have fraud protection on right now you're talking 50%
(05:58):
of the traffic. There's mechanisms you can pull,
there's leverage you can pull Google and Facebook tend to be
somewhat patient in giving you some money back in credits, but
just between either it's not fake traffic, but it's
fraudulent traffic because they're coming out and staying
for one second. What kind of traffic is that
that you're paying for? Or they have they're they're
bouncing to too many IP addresses, which is blatantly
farm. There's a there's a million
(06:18):
ways, but every time the tech gets better, Google's and
Facebook's excuses get better also.
That's right, right. Like, Oh, they're just the
marketplace. You're the one attracting all
this fraud. Oh, that sounds, that sounds
good. Right.
So when you, when you think about these options, you think
about #1 the ability to target so you know who you're reaching
and you're intelligent about. Am I getting this in front of my
customer and then guaranteeing an impression.
(06:39):
So you think about, you know, putting it out there and who's
seeing it. Is it even a human?
Yeah. And the best or the best or
worst case scenario, either way you look at it an impression and
say you're on your social media,they're easy to scroll away.
The best case scenario with a direct mail case you.
See it and you throw it in the garbage.
You see it and throw it in the garbage.
You see it when you're throwing it in the garbage.
Everyone. I do this, I do this rendition
(07:01):
all the time because people go, yeah, just throw this away, OK.
Go to your mailbox. I don't know how long your
driveway is, but you're walking out, flipping through, and you
got this and this right. And here's a brand impression.
And you go, OK, here's the message.
Here's the value. I'm interested or I'm not
interested and you can discard it.
Yeah, or you could say I need totalk to my wife about.
Google counts that as not only in view, it's an engaged view
(07:22):
because it's more than three seconds what you spent with it.
So, so Google, they're counting that and there's.
Caveats everywhere, right? Like for me, usually my wife
picks up the mail. I look, I see it immediately,
and I RIP it up and throw it in the garbage.
But I am seeing it as an impression.
You're getting an impression. Is on it.
It stands out to you to some capacity, and I think that ads
in this space it's a little different like the Internet.
You're expecting a certain because it's around other things
(07:43):
here. I bet you bad ads work really
well. Really.
I'm not cuz you're like Oh my God this is terrible but staring
at it. It's kind of funny when, yeah,
when you look at their performance and you know, it's
attention grabbing, right? So you got 4 seconds or less to
make that point. But the better case that is not
possible with other ad media is that these can live, and they
often do live on the counter, ina drawer on the kitchen table
(08:04):
for weeks. And we know because we see this
ad tracking or we see the call tracking, we put QR codes, you
need phone numbers on here. So we see this come through.
And I had it when I, when I got in the business, it was late
January into February. We had a customer, we had
multiple customers. We hadn't advertised since the
prior October. And they're getting calls
rolling in weekly because peoplewere saving them and then the
calendar turned or they got their bonus or whatever, and
(08:26):
then they called. I'll tell you, I'm waiting for
trees right now. It was the middle of the summer.
I knew and messed up my grass. I'm like, you know what, there's
going to be less demand in the winter.
I'm waiting for the winter, right?
And that's when I'm going to getit done.
So I completely and I think one of the big problems with really
home improvement got really hit really hard coming out of 20
because so many people had extramoney.
They're doing all this work on their house that a lot of those
(08:46):
projects got speed and they thought that that rise from 20
to 21 was going to last forever.Well, what actually happened was
because so many people were in demand for their services, it
was easy to capture all of thesepeople.
Now you got to go back to creating your own demand and you
got to be back to your own brandmarketing.
And I think one of the things that is across the best brand
marketers are the ones succeeding the most now.
(09:07):
So how does something like this,how do you tell people?
Because it used to all be about conversion, which it should be.
Don't get me wrong, you should convert, but I'm sure they're
like, OK, well, I expect this many conversions and are you
having the conversation of OK, well, this is a little bit of
brand marketing Also. Tell me about how you overcome
some of those objections with these clients.
Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. You know, depending on the
design of the the campaign, you know, it can really serve
(09:30):
multiple purposes, right. So yeah, in some sense, you
know, broad awareness if you've got, if you're giving a message,
yeah, it. Better be freaking very
compelling if you're just thinking you're doing broad
brand awareness. If you're being broad, like I
think, and I want you to finish this statement, but to me, the
most important things are you have to understand what you're
doing, right? If you're putting a really good
buffer on anything works, yes, right.
Anything works, right. And if you have something that's
(09:51):
really good, a really strong ad,somebody is going to look at it.
Those will never change across any kind of mediums, right?
So this is just an extension of it, but go on.
Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, we're we're
what a postcard does is gives a trusted invitation and right
that's it's reliable. It's people see that there is a
there's a durability to it. There's a tactile experience
(10:13):
with the ad where you're engaging more senses of of their
more of their $0.05, right so. Now you put smell in.
Are we putting Cologne on? Are we going to do pheromones?
Maybe it's. Possible, Yeah, some of the
Cologne on there, but so just making it memorable, right.
So even from a brand experience,that's one thing, but driving
(10:34):
these are very strong for driving leads.
Number one, it's the it's a targeted nature of it, right?
The ability to to hang on to these things and what Speaking
of lead generation, that the, the thing that the conversation
I have with people because, you know, one of the objections is,
hey, I tried direct mail. It didn't work.
And a lot of times I go, well, how'd you do it?
And they go, I sent out a postcard campaign to 2000
people, you know, found a mail list, whatever, hit these
(10:56):
neighborhoods. And I go, OK, you know 2000
people one time, right? Like, do you do Med ads?
Do you? Do that's not even, that's not
even $0.50 worth of ads. Correct.
Yeah. So, so, you know, there, there's
no doubt this works like other advertising.
The repeat impressions are key. And that's why it's important to
work with a business that knows the data and and has a
relationship with the USPS. And it's been doing this for 30
(11:17):
years. Yeah, because there are options
that USPS has a every door direct mail program, which some
some of the viewers might know about, for example.
This is a way to execute and if you look on a cost per basis,
you can, it might be lower, but you're it's easy to waste a lot
of impressions and then you kindof get into why are we even
doing this? Like e-mail marketing for, you
know, some of these other channels, you get a very low
(11:38):
cost per impression. But why?
What if you're not? Yeah, those work if you're doing
with hundreds of millions. Of impressions, but it's too.
Expensive on that basis because unlike something like the
Internet, really your cost is nothing right to get a banner ad
like it's already you're alreadypaying for everything but your
cost per leave for this is the bail which unfortunately has
gone up. I think most people know the
post office is a disaster. But that being said, these are
(11:59):
really important for the post office.
I have to imagine sometimes deliver these to a pretty good
capacity. Yeah, so a couple.
Of things, yeah. So we get through our
relationship, launching a relationship with the post
office with some of the biggest printers in the US Our rates are
going to be lower than what you'd see just in Atlanta.
I'm doing over 50 million distinct pieces of direct mail
this year. So we're doing it at scale and
(12:20):
and we're in the loop on all theincentive programs that we have
and we're qualifying and we're getting volume discounts.
So it's very important to managethat budget and it's done
through using a provider. Provider like city publications.
She's got a local presence and operates on a national.
Scale, I have to imagine that the barriers to entry to the
industry. Are pretty high, yeah.
It's not easy to just start one of these like you want to be a
digital agency, you snap your fingers and you can be one
(12:41):
That's right. Nowadays even connect to TV
every everyone on earth was likeI you could only watch on my
platform and it's like every daysomeone it was like Netflix is
mine, Amazon is mine wide open world, bidding, bidding,
bidding. So it's kind of bullshit.
It really is so. I'll tell a story about when I
got in the industry because you know, I used to work at Adobe,
(13:02):
so selling digital marketing software to Fortune one
hundreds. And you know, so coming in this
I go, OK, obviously an opportunity to innovate here.
And really in my mind thought, well, it's kind of do more
digital. You get out there in the
landscape and you realize exactly what you said.
There are 1,000,000 digital agencies out there and you
better. It's a race to the best.
(13:22):
It's a race to the bottom. It's the bottom commoditized.
It's been commoditized. It's price is the only
sensitivity. And now everything's on its head
like we talked about with AI, where everything you thought you
knew is out the window, right? And then there's a retreat to,
hey, listen, like if I want to get my brand message out there
and I want to make sure I'm reaching consumer, eliminate
fraud, eliminate having to work through algorithms, maybe this
(13:43):
kind of tactile nature is a goodway to do it.
And I realized that that's a differentiator.
Yeah. And I think that's the way I
think about my digital girlfriends too.
It's just not the same. It's not the same as the real
thing. Yeah.
So you got to keep them both around.
So the so I think that's really,but that's really the the
opportunity here is there's a paradigm of historical direct
mail in the era of the Yellow Pages where, you know, it was
(14:06):
print marketing and then it was digital marketing.
And now there's there's still not a lot of businesses out
there that are thinking about what about the and instead of
the org, Yeah. And how do we take that high
value audience, the ability to deliver, yeah, and reach them in
more channels? Well, this is the way I look at
it, right? First of all, there's a couple
of things. You look at radio, you look at
billboard, you're reaching someone in their car.
You don't know what kind of consideration they have.
They're driving home and they'redriving to work.
(14:27):
But I like, I actually really like audio and radio because
there's less distractions because you're in your car,
you're trapped, right? You can't do anything right
unless you're that one asshole on the phone on the highway
that's driving like this going on the get honked at.
From the. Billboard you're stuck there.
So you're one of the things about home is, is that that's
when you're thinking about thesethings like when the roof's
leaking and you have this thing in front of you or you're
looking outside and you see the trees like you're reaching them
(14:48):
at a point where they're most likely to make a purchase.
So it works really well with radio with fast food, because
what do you think you're hungry?Like fast food on TV is
branding, but call to action is,hey, $0.99 coming right now.
Like those things exist. So I think it's not just
different points on the funnel like a brand.
And then and then when they're in their consideration phase,
it's also hit them at home, hit them on their mobile.
You have to hit them in all these different places, which
(15:09):
brings bring us to some of the stuff that you and I have been
talking about about more. How do we round out this
approach? How do we bring in some other
modern techniques to bring things like pixel tracking in
and impressions and retargeting and go after look alike
audiences? And I think as as you and I kind
of develop out some of this technology, you know, I don't
want to reveal too much because we're going to have a grand
reveal at some point. But I do think that the industry
(15:33):
has really separated itself too.There are these full functioning
digital agencies who've gotten very complacent and lazy and
don't want to push boundaries. They want to what's ever easiest
for them and they're not seeing opportunities in something like
this. What they're telling you is
don't buy direct mail. Where better?
When you ask why, you had no answer, right?
Don't buy radio. Now those same digital agencies,
(15:53):
though, are begging people to dothese things because it makes
them look like they're better. And then they're going to take
credit for it because I've seen it in real time.
Yeah, yeah. And that's the other trend.
So, yeah, not only when I got inthe industry did I realize
there's that, you know, there's a, you could, you know, turn
around and hit a digital agency.They are coming every time they
go, Oh, I heard direct mails make a comeback.
I'd love to talk to you. So it is a, it's a unique
(16:14):
offering. It's, it's always been there,
right? But it's, it's kind of been
flown under the radar for a few years and it's, it's a, it's a
really cool time to, to take another look at it.
I think the other thing you mentioned kind of timing of
receiving something in your homeabout your home.
You know, a lot of the business we do today is with home
services companies around Atlanta.
And you know, by nature you talkabout, you know, welcoming
(16:36):
something in your home or accepting something in your
home. That's what you're doing when
you're hiring plumber or electrician, somebody to do a
remodel in your house, right? So this is kind of introducing
that same trust, getting that brand in the home.
Guilty by association. Right, exactly.
And it's, it also adds some credibility.
You know, if you think about, you mentioned radio or or TV
(16:58):
advertising, whether linear or, or the top, there's a level of
credibility to it right where they're on the right.
If you're on the right things, and nowadays you can't even
control where you're going usually, sometimes you end on
smucky on freaking cinema. You just don't know that's true,
Yeah. But so you see a brand, you see,
say you're a growing a growing brand, right?
You maybe just you did a millionrevenue where you're on your
(17:19):
growth journey. You want to be legitimate, you
want to be the brand. You see a, you know, a quality
ad on on the on the on the TV oryou hear on the radio.
Oh, those guys, they got a commercial.
Wow. Yeah, right.
Yeah, that's. Step one of the journey, I think
for me, those are the sports teams are the pinnacles of that.
When you're with Georgia or withyou at the Braves, that's when
you're playing with the big boys.
Exactly. Or you're on like Monday Night
Football broadcast, right? If you're on cricket on like a
(17:39):
Tuesday afternoon at 2:00 in themorning, I don't think we've
made it yet. Well, it's a spot, it's a start.
But when you contrast to OK, I saw a million, the only way I
know this brand is because I seelike a flashing monkey banner
ad, right? It's like, OK, if you get a
really high quantity, you again get to the back to the tactical
nature. You look and you feel and and
then you see these guys in multiple places, right?
It brings a level authenticity to the brand and it's a trusted
(18:02):
media in in the home. Yeah, yeah.
No, I, I love it. And I think, but ultimately, as
the years go by, I think a lot of this retro, let's call it
stuff is coming back for a reason.
And I think there was a little bit of a, you know, a wolf in
sheep's clothing with a lot of these, with a lot of these
Internet companies that were promising this XYZ didn't really
know how they were doing it didn't know.
(18:23):
And they don't have to show any work.
Like you can't argue. Like, what are you going to say?
The post office lied. Like you can't argue.
There's things are tactile in someone's hand.
Yes, they ripped and they chose to throw it out, But that's very
different than me having an ad Walker on my phone that never
even sees it. That's right.
So County. Has their pressure anyway.
And well, you know, even this podcast, you know how many
people are going to download this and not listen to this?
Like, I know the numbers, it's an exist.
It's a lot of people, I mean a lot of percentage that don't
(18:44):
listen, but they're still givingcredit for that.
I'm not making money, but they're getting credit for it.
So, you know, I think we just got to go back.
I think what as long as it's part of a robust, broad full
funnel marketing approach, there's a space for everything.
I think the price points at which you ask for.
So now let's kind of spin this around.
I think we've done a good job ofexplaining what it is, how it
stands. So what advice would you give to
somebody that's on the other side that's saying, hey, I'm
(19:05):
thinking about doing direct mail.
I want to go first because there's one that really pisses
me off. My advice, if you were going to
do an offer, don't do the same offer that's on a billboard on a
website. People don't feel special.
Do a unique offer. Make it something that only
exists there so people feel special.
People want authenticity and they want to feel special.
(19:26):
Right now, if you put the same stupid ad that is everywhere
else, you are doing nothing to help.
I don't even care if it's 499 and 500.
It's got to be something a little bit different.
Otherwise, all you're doing is saying that that my my price
should be discounted in this price to begin with.
Yeah, that's that's a great point on the offer of design and
the creative, which is very important.
I think the number one thing that I run into that'll
(19:47):
encourage any marketer is, you know, we talked about and or
we're not saying like so if you have to think about outbound
advertising and so you got, you know, pushing ads out.
So that's a direct Mailer or some of this, you know, with
Google ads or wherever you're you're displaying.
But you got to, no matter what, you're driving people in, right?
So you have a web presence, no matter how much you pay
(20:07):
attention to it and the customerbehavior.
We'll put tracking phone numberson here and people call.
We'll see the calls come in. And that's still a high.
Especially with the boomer generation, that's a high
propensity customer behavior. But more and more, that Google
business profile is the centerpiece of your reputation,
no matter how people hear about you.
So I would say if you're going to invest in direct mail, number
(20:31):
one, make it a part of an integrated marketing campaign.
Yeah, but also make sure that you've firmed up your foundation
because people will inspect yourbrand and leads will leak and
fall out even no matter how great your ad is.
If you got 5 reviews, three of them are bad from six years ago.
Well. I'll give you 1 further, like
when, What if you're this competitor who just made it to
the big boys? Well, the bigger boys are going
(20:52):
to be there just trying to capture every name recognition
you have because you don't have that brand recognition.
So, you know, again, I, I think that that foundation is a huge
part of all of this. And, and you know, it may not be
what Brian wants here because he's selling this stuff, but
like, don't advertise if you don't have that stuff.
Don't even if you think you're going to go out there and not
have a Google My Business that you're not posting pictures to,
that's an updated that you're not on every single different
(21:13):
directory site and you're going to go out there and you're going
to start advertising. You might as well take the money
and light it on fire like I promise you will.
You will hit one or two big months off of it because some of
this is luck and some of busier competitors come back.
But in the long run, if you watch it, it is literally like
going and chasing penny stocks in the stock market.
Yeah, it'll look like it pays off until it's not there and
there's nothing and you build noactually equity whatsoever.
(21:33):
Right. Yeah, I think the Omni thinking
about your brand and Omni channel nature is totally
mandatory these days and that's why I would I never argue, I
never try to you know there are certain advantages that direct
mail has over certain other advertising media.
Yeah, but if it's. Better than it is on top of
anything, correct? If you fit it in and there's
probably making things it works better with and like if you,
(21:55):
let's put it this way. If you have Geo targeting
software, if you have something like a Clavio workflow where you
can match emails and addresses and you can put out a segment to
Facebook, Google through some ground targeting with that all
hitting people with the same message from the same point, the
propensity to succeed is just X potentially higher, and you're
not actually spending more money, you're being more
targeted, Yeah. And I, I don't know if any of my
(22:16):
former colleagues at Adobe will end up watching this, but I bet
people are laughing because thisis the same conversation we have
with the, the chief marketing officer organizations and the
biggest companies in the world, right?
They've got this data. And, and in their case, it's
their data. At least they have the data, but
it's still the, the, the Holy Grail for marketing.
And the puzzle is how do I get the same message to the same
person across the same channels?And I think many marketers today
(22:37):
are saying, well, I have the same kind of segmentation
materia and there's probably bigoverlap, but you have no idea
Facebook and. Nowadays Facebook and Google are
begging you to use AI where it'smaking that assumption for you,
which is actually worse. I shut it off on everything
because like, how do they how dothey know which ad is going to
work the best for me? You need right reach and you
need frequency. You can't change your message
(22:59):
and then you're going to get thesame frequency, right?
So I think that's another, I think that's a.
Well, with frequency, if you don't know that you're hitting
the same actual individual, there's no there's no repeat
impressions because it's guy A or guy that looks like IA right
these. Cookies disappear.
It's gonna get even harder. OK, so yeah, you know, let's end
with this one because I think this is.
I know I said the last one is more important and these are
(23:19):
kind of the same thing. If your copy sucks, your copy
sucks. It's not going to work to begin
with. Put time into it.
Whether it's a logo, whether it's the tactile nature, whether
it's a pretty girl or a good looking guy on, I don't care.
But put something that's going to draw the eye because like
Brian said, when you look at this, something has to grab your
eye immediately. It's just like a social media.
They say you have 3 seconds social media, they're lying.
(23:39):
You have half of a second to grab someone's attention on
social media. So make it compelling.
Don't make it boring. Make it for something that you
would grab your attention had you not been in this industry
your whole life. Send it to your children said
you know what this it is do it to a 5 year old side.
Do you have any idea what this is?
Send it to your wife or your husband who know nothing about
the industry and say with this grab your attention we get so
fucked. These business owners they know
(24:01):
what they know. They don't leave their comfort
zone and they just keep making the same thing and usually it's
because their friend in the sameindustry made the same one or
they think their buddy that's a window guy and a trigger they
should be they look the same. It never works that way.
AB test I'm sure AB testing has to work for you right?
Pay to have the four for the year and AB test 4 different
ones. You know what market research
costs? You can use marketing these
tools these days to do market research.
(24:22):
If you bet, if you bake that cost in, it's cheaper than
market research used to be. Yeah.
Let me, I'll just comment on, I think the other misconception or
something people might not know and it has to do with AB testing
is measurement here. So measurements come a long way,
right. I mentioned unique phone number
so we can track who's respondingin that particular response
mechanism, which is calling QR codes leading directly to a
(24:43):
booking page that we can track with the Pixel, for example.
But AB testing is a great, greatexample as well, right?
So if you're blanketing area andyou've taken, you know, I
usually do this many jobs over the past year, every year in
this area. Now let's try adding in a direct
mail campaign and you can measure the increment or similar
demographic targeting using thatdata platform to.
Understand, but that being said you cannot do that with one
(25:06):
with. Margin for error is too small,
have to do multiple. Seasonality.
Cannot and this is with any formof marketing.
If you think 2 weeks is your sample size, if you think saying
that one direct, all you're doing is throwing money in the
garbage like you're lighting, you may as well light it on fire
if you don't try this multiple times.
My rule of thumb, no matter whatis what I would say is 3 months
for me. But because the way you're doing
things multiple, at least three cents to have enough data to
(25:30):
make these decisions. And if you're the kind of person
who thinks you're going to get that immediate impact, you will
be taking advantage of the rest of your life because people are
going to lie to you and sell youa fake bill of goods.
If that existed, everybody wouldbe using it and it would just be
an absolute race to the bottom. That's when the truth, the
truth. If everyone uses Google, Google
jumps out of their seat. All you do is bring up the
auction costs. That's what they want.
They want everybody to use it. So I would just say that I
(25:52):
completely agree with you, but measurement can't be on your You
have to use industry standard margin for error and application
of sample size, etc. Otherwise it doesn't work.
That's right. Yeah, and don't the worst part
is the business owners say they do an AB test with what they
think is going to be the thing and they always put favoritism
to what they want it or think it's going to be.
That's right. Don't do that.
Don't you need to pay someone else to do it?
(26:13):
But be open minded in it. All right, bro.
Any any other tips to anybody that's on the fence about a
direct marketing campaign and then tell them how to find you?
Yeah, I'd say, you know, we always start with a
conversation, you know who, what, what is, what are your
business goals? What are your marketing goals?
What are your sales goals? Where are you in your growth
journey? What is the rest of your
marketing look like? And then let's figure out the
right type of campaign for you. We do it.
(26:33):
We have a number of offerings from standard campaigns that
deliver repeat impressions at a manageable cost.
We have solo campaigns that can be ultimately flexible.
We we have specialty campaigns that target cohorts like new
movers, for example. We that.
One's really. Cool data there, really cool.
So no matter where you're comingfrom, you know the
conversation's worthwhile. And like you said, and like I
said, right, I'm not shy to say maybe this is not the right time
(26:57):
to to start indirect mail. And I'll be totally upfront.
Usually those are the people that end up advertising.
Now, because I have dared you, now I'm going to advertise.
All right, Tell me how to find. You, bud.
Yeah, my e-mail is brian@citypubatl.com.
No naked pictures. We had this happen last time.
No naked pictures. I got a filter active now at
least that e-mail filter very handy.
So like we talked about so yeah,find us on LinkedIn, Instagram,
(27:22):
reach out directly. I can share my phone number as
well. So city pubatl.com, is the
website Cool? Yeah.
All right. Thank you bud.
You've been listening to the unsexiest turned sexiest episode
of the Market Man man ever. We'll catch you next time.
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