October 14, 2025 • 39 mins
Nick Constantino and Matthew Caddy dive into the seismic shift from SEO to GEO (Generative Engine Optimization). Learn how AI is reshaping search, why branding matters more than ever, and how to future-proof your marketing strategy in the age of ChatGPT, Reddit indexing, and instant AI-driven purchases.📌 Chapters:0:00 Intro2:15 What is GEO?10:30 AI vs Human Search18:45 Reddit’s Role in AI Search25:00 Branding vs Performance35:00 Tools & Platforms45:00 Final Thoughts✅ Key Takeaways1. GEO (Generative Engine Optimization) is the next evolution of SEO, focused on AI-driven search.2. Structured data and fast-loading websites are critical for AI crawlability.3. Branding is now a major factor in AI search visibility and trust.4. Reddit is a top source for AI indexing due to authentic, user-generated content.5. Performance-only marketing strategies are vulnerable without brand support.6. AI tools like ChatGPT are becoming primary search engines for users.7. GEO investments compound over time, unlike paid ads which drop off instantly.8. Local businesses can compete with national brands through smart GEO practices.9. Bad actors in the GEO space are rising—marketers must ask the right questions.10. AI search amplifies word-of-mouth marketing more effectively than traditional SEO.GEO, SEO, AEO, AI search, ChatGPT marketing, generative engine optimization, branding strategy, Reddit indexing, structured data, site speed, digital marketing, AI crawlability, performance marketing, marketing funnel, user-generated content, search evolution, marketing podcast
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
They say marketing is a mad man's game.
So now we turned it over to the marketing madman with Nick
Constantino and Trip Joe. All right, welcome to the
marketing madman. Nick Constantino here.
We got a special episode for you.
And I say special because this is another one of those I have
learned a lot. I've I it's been necessary for
(00:23):
me to learn. So let me introduce the mad
caddy. Mad Caddy Matt, how you doing
bud? Good, good, good.
Thank you for having me on. Blast to have you.
So OK, before we get into the nitty gritty of this, introduce
yourself briefly. Talk about what led you to the
role you're in today. Before you divulge that, because
I want to be able to have this grand rollout, talk a little bit
about the work you've done previously that led to the
(00:44):
current iteration of the company.
Awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. SO in my background, I've been
doing, I've been in the digital marketing space for a long time,
about a decade, primarily focused on SEO.
Search was kind of like my passion.
I love the Internet wanted to figure out how to control that,
how to get the results we wanted, you know, and as
everything evolved, you know, AIcame around, you know, started
seeing the writing on the wall in terms of what that looked
(01:05):
like, how we're gathering information, where it's going.
And so really kind of looked at the next evolution of what
search is very exciting, you know, that it happens to be with
AI and, and started to kind of shift my shift my focus over
there. I've built, built and sold
agencies, built teams, been in this space for quite a bit of
time before going on venturing on my own for about the last
(01:25):
five years, serving as a consultant for some pretty large
brands, and now just looking forward to this next evolution
of search. Yeah, yeah, man.
So if you haven't figured it out, we are talking about let's
call it SEO slash AEO slash Geo.And I'm gonna have you go
through each of those because I think like any ripe new
industry, there's so many bad actors and so many people trying
(01:48):
to take advantage and and so much of that.
So really what we're talking about is SEO used to be shit,
just you having a website to start and then it became blogs
and then it became images and then it became videos and then
it became schema and then it became Google My Business.
And then it became where are we searching?
What are we doing that is now evolving where the structure of
the data has to be more respondent to someone searching
(02:10):
AI. So tell me about this or I want
to know this. And the easiest way for me to
say it and then I want you to elaborate is as human beings, we
used to have our own consideration sets.
Now we are turning our consideration sets over to the
machines to process a lot of thework that we didn't want to do.
Right. So as an easy example, I'm about
to hit a plane to go to Puerto Rico.
I used to have to manually go in, go on Yelp, cross reference
(02:34):
with Google, find distances. Now you can literally plug in
here's my airport, here's my hotel, ask me 5 questions, plan
me an itinerary and it will do all of that work for you.
More precisely, probably more margin for error because you're
leaving a lot to a machine, but the more specific you are with
it, it works the same way with the Internet.
These people are allowing the AIto do the search criteria so as
(02:58):
to where you used to say show methe best plumber and be list of
plumbers now with some mates andsays here's the best plumber,
here's why here's this. So it's it's upended business.
So talk a little bit about just let's give a timeline.
So give us the year that we started seeing AEO come in where
it's more important for those answers.
And now when we're in this generative engine and kind of
(03:19):
the differences, I think that would be very helpful.
You know, absolutely, yeah. And so, so I think, you know,
when Open AI came out first Jet GPT, it was it was exciting.
You know, to your point there, you know, being able to get into
a system and say, hey, I want you to solve this problem for
me. And it's deliver all the
answers. I think at the end of the day,
as humans, it's user experience that we're really after, right?
The fewest amount of clicks to solve my problem.
And so with Google, they solved that problem for a long time
(03:41):
with us, right? Like optimizing it, we got the
blue links, we got the descriptions, awesome.
This is what I want. But over time it's, it's, it's
turned into more conversational.And so it, what chats you BT or
other AI's have solved for us now is I want you to solve this
problem for me and how should I do it and provide that
information? And so the exciting thing about
that is for businesses, it's a whole new frontier of getting in
(04:01):
front of customers in a quicker way.
And especially what with open AInow, now doing things in chat,
you were able to do instant purchase out of their instant
purchases on the platform. It's just, it's just very
exciting. And so, so last year is when I
started flipping my focus. I kind of saw, like I said, the
writing on the wall. I saw, hey, brands are looking
at this a lot of the bigger brands we, we had, I started
noticing ChatGPT traffic trickling in.
(04:22):
And so I took it upon myself to say, OK, how do we make this
work? And so it really does dive down
to when we look at our AEO, we look at our Geo, we look at SEO,
how they all kind of kind of work and coming altogether.
The main thing that you want to focus on is you know your crawl
ability, right? Is the, is the information
crawlable? Do you have all the right best
practices? The great thing about that is
things like structured data or schema that's been around for a
(04:43):
long time. Google has been pushing that for
a long time. And when I first got an SEO, I
just thought, hey, I'm going to learn this.
It's something they asked for. They have a whole portion of the
website dedicated that. So I started teaching that,
teach learning that myself. And so now where we're at is now
they're saying, hey, you have tohave this on your site.
And so it's just exciting to be able to basically mark up
everything on the site, make sure everything's crawlable.
(05:04):
You know, you got your lol dot TXT files.
You're basically saying, hey, when you crawl my site, this is
how I want you to do it. So it gives you a lot of control
that way. And then in terms of when you're
generating Geo and tracking which prompts you're in and
actually organizing your contentnow getting the importance of,
Hey, you know, we all knew in SEO or your header structure is
important, but now it's, it's highly important.
How is the structure on, on yourpage?
(05:25):
And so I look at things now as each page is almost a database,
right? We want the crawlers to pull
from information from that, makesure that everything's marked
up. And so in your case, the Salomon
brothers, we've got, you know, we've got jewelry, right?
So when someone, when the AI is crawling for that, are we
telling them how to properly clean it?
Are we telling them the material?
Are we telling everything that? Right, there's so much more that
goes into it and I think the biggest thing for me what I'm
(05:46):
realizing is is that it has to all live in one place and be
easy to go to, right. So like most business owners are
really good at their one thing. They don't know the whole you
need the full gamut of the business.
You need to know credit terms, you need to know that we are all
for extending support, but you can't just hit him in the face
and say extended warranty. You have to talk about why the
warranty is important and what could go wrong because the way
(06:08):
it pulls information is differently.
I mean, and like, look, go back,I mean, the reason that SEO
exists, every one gets it wrong,right?
Look, it exists because Google wants to make money.
And the easiest way for them themoney is to serve hyper relevant
information to the people in which are searching it, so they
spend more time on it. There's no other way around it,
right? And it's algorithms that say
(06:28):
what you will about it, but the day of just paying us a ton of
money to Google don't exist anymore.
Now, that being said, let's calla spade a spade.
If you pay Google more and they're more lenient with you
and I'm never going to have anyone argument with that meta.
The second you start paying, allof a sudden it's just it's
amazing using how quickly some of these gears turn that weren't
turning before, right? Any of them read it, They shut
(06:48):
down every page. All of a sudden you start
paying. It's like we've accepted every
single thing you've done. Like we don't have to lie about
it. Money makes anything go, but all
of a sudden now you starting to see some of these things that if
somebody went on Google and it gave it the wrong information,
they're going to go to DuckDuckGo or something else,
right? You got to look at Bing nowadays
because of the ChatGPT ownershipstate that Microsoft has, you'd
(07:11):
be a fool not to believe Bing isgoing to be incorporated into
this to some capacity, right? There are all these little
nuances that I'm not saying you got to be an expert on, but I
think the terminology I use to be a marketer today, you have to
know enough to be dangerous in every facet of business of web
design. If you don't, you are relying on
other people. And that's where we're going to
(07:31):
come to the bad actor. So you and I have developed a
relationship which which makes this easier, right?
Like I'm not micromanaging. We, we got together and say this
is the end goal. I'm not necessarily care how you
get there. All I care is that along the way
you drop Nuggets for me. So I understand the process,
right? That's not how most of this
works. Most of the time it's a
completely ignorant marketing person who's going to a company
(07:53):
who's baiting them in with some completely ridiculous phrases
like make your Geo go up 66,000%in Day 1 based on one case study
that happened in Anchorage, AK on a Tuesday.
Well, there was a complete solarblackout.
Like it's just insane. So talk a little bit about, I
want to get into some best practices of what people can do
because I want to be helpful, but talk about what to lookout
(08:14):
for. Talk about what a lot of these
companies that just popped up out of nowhere are doing to bait
you in and why they're not doingwhat is necessary for for what
we're talking about here. Definitely, Absolutely.
Yeah. And to piggyback on that, you're
absolutely right. Something I think that's
important when we look at like the importance of the crawlers
and SEO and the difference is about making sure you're doing
things right is like even understanding, you know, that's
(08:36):
the crawl time on the website. How much more computing power
does it take for an AI to crawl a slower website versus the
faster loading, faster loading website?
So those are some of the things that I look at at a detailed
level because it all does kind of add up to that.
And so some of the biggest, the best practices first starting
with that is start with your site speed.
I know they've always pushed that for a long time, but I got
to look at it like, Hey, open a,you know, everyone's been on
(08:57):
chat computer, all AI. It's like, hey, you're
programming too fast. Wait, that's their signal saying
they're computing at a high level.
And so at the same time, when you're when they're crawling a
website, they're trying to surface an answer, they're
trying to get something. Maybe it's a deep scan.
How long does it load the website?
You know, things like that do add up and understanding, you
know that we all know it, it matters to load it fast.
But now it's like it's actually taking computing power to do
that. So I think with the first thing
(09:19):
is just make sure you have a fast living website and well,
that's a broken record. Everyone in SCO said that, but
now we actually have hard data tie to exactly why now from the
AI point of view. The second thing is make sure
you mark up the structure date on your website.
Go to schema.org and do it. It's it's it, it takes time to
to mark up your entire website. And there's ways that we do what
we do on the special order with Salomon Brothers.
There is, you know, we want to automate this site wide.
(09:40):
So that way you're pulling new fields.
You have 5000 products, you needto make sure they have all best
practices. No need to do that one at a
time. It should be deployed site
because those are standard now. They need to crawl and
understand the website of as quickly as possible and to
understand how they may see it is go click on any of your web
pages and right clicking, save the page as look at all the
HTML. That's exactly what they're
(10:01):
crawling when they look at your websites.
Gives you a lot of insights intoactually what they see, and
that's why it's super, super important.
Yeah, but like, don't pretend like I don't.
We don't need you to understand what those codes are.
Understand that it is. It is a numbers game.
And it's funny because like, when you talk about things like
page speed, it's almost counterintuitive, right?
Because you're compressing images down, they don't look as
good. The videos look blurry.
But it's just it. With any technology, we've moved
(10:23):
so fast that the speed of the servers are calling into
question the speed of your computer.
I mean, there's so many things here that it, it's amazing.
Like it's almost that again, perfect is the enemy of good.
Like you're not striving for perfection right now.
You are striving to play these games, get as much information
out, making it as digestible as possible, which also makes some
(10:44):
of the original things, right? Like that's why brand marketing
is so important right now. All these companies that spend
all this time in their performance marketing, who do
you think is getting annihilatedright now?
I see it every day in every direction.
Two companies. One are the companies that spend
all their time on operations. You can be the best operational
company. AI doesn't understand your
operations business at all. It understands a directory and
(11:06):
it's trying to create a directory and #2 are the ones
that just unloaded everything into Google Ads and Meta.
They spend everything on performance.
They have no brand whatsoever. You don't want to know why
Salomon Brothers will be OK? 75% of my traffic come in people
searching Salomon Brothers. What is AI going to do there?
Do you know how much money it would cost for somebody to come
in and steal Salomon Brothers, which is not illegal to do.
(11:27):
They could call it Salomon Sisters and they would never.
The barrier to entry is so high.So part of the reason I say it
is, is because I don't want to get lost in the, this is one
part of the marketing funnel, right?
So when you do this stuff, it's not like stop everything you're
doing and go Geo. Matt and I, when we started
talking that my thought was because I had just started doing
this seven months ago, 8 months ago was I want to put 10% of my
(11:49):
budget to future proofing. OK, What I did not think what it
was going to come so quickly that what was me future proofing
8 months ago is already now proofing and we're in it.
But that being said, you also been good enough to show me how
we go versus some of our competitors.
And we're so far ahead of them without even really turning the
juice on yet. So, so again, it this is like we
always talk about in the show, this is part of a full funnel
(12:12):
approach. There are tools you can use.
I've been blown away by how powerful press releases are.
For example, when I search our other show that we started
Legacy of Luxury, if I search that five years, it would have
taken years for the algorithms to catch it.
I search it and because we put out a press release, it pulled
exactly from the press release and says Legacy of Luxury is a
new show with this, this and this, right?
(12:33):
It doesn't work if there's only one place, but a good paid press
release should have thousands ofpeople.
So the Internet, it's almost forcing you to crawl it.
So those are, those are little things that I think, and I think
a lot of it's stuff you can do yourself, but you just got to be
deliberate with your intention. Wake up one day and be like,
look, first of all, anything youdo with SEO is going to help
Geo. Anything you do with Geo is
going to help with SEO, right? We woke up and all of a sudden
(12:56):
now what was it 2 weeks ago thatGemini was #1 in Apple, it had
already passed Chat, ChatGPT. Google wasn't going to lose this
game, right? We've seen that too many
Blockbuster videos, too many Xerox and Kodak's, too many of
these companies that are not adapted, that is not going to be
Google. They are so far ahead of this.
And you see the gear starting toturn right, like you start
seeing now they're image generation and blah, blah, blah,
(13:17):
blah, blah. So I think be part of a full
funnel approach. All right, so you gave some good
advice there. Talk a little bit about Reddit
because I was shocked to see when I saw that Reddit is being
pulled, that AI is pulling 45% of its content from Reddit.
Now I have to imagine that was because for a long time Reddit
was not advertising based and that if I was a betting man, the
advertising of it is going to drop that ranking down because
(13:39):
it's going to start being filledwith more nonsense and stuff you
could pay for. But talk about now how important
that is. And why it's pulling from
something like Reddit. No, for sure, Yeah, for sure.
It see, Reddit's interesting, you know, because, you know, you
look, you look at Reddit, you know, it could be a form of an
echo chamber, you know, kind of like looking at it, but you
realize the power that's behind user generated content.
And so with something like Reddit is you have an infinite
(13:59):
amount of subreddits where people are confirming pieces of
information, asking questions, they're getting a response.
And then you're looking at people who've, you know, had
accounts and they're saying, hey, this is the one that's most
likely. I mean, there's game shows based
on that same logic, right? Like you don't know the answer.
You ask the crowd. 75% of the crowd.
Be prepared. Be prepared when you ask.
Like like twitters A cesspool, but twitters A cesspool with
(14:20):
three sentences. I went into a Reddit on a
jewelry chain of a guy asking why his the girl who was getting
smelled so bad and it was a novel about the smell.
And I honestly, I was reading I go, I go honestly, I don't know
if this is a fetish thing. I don't know why people are
reading this, but it was one of the trendiest, right?
And I was like, OK, like it'll also be prepared that whatever
you post, you're going to get people who are just going to
(14:41):
lambasted and just like it, justcome to terms with it.
Don't. Don't you never want to see peek
behind the curtain of the Internet?
100% exactly. It's a basically it's a true
example of a double edged sword.Like both Google open AI,
they're all indexing of that because at the end of the day,
it's the same way. How many decisions are based off
of reviews or what are the reviews?
It's the same thing with user generated content.
Someone says, Hey, what's the best this over here?
(15:01):
And you've got everyone confirming that's what it is.
Chances are that's going to be something that you want to take
a look at. And so with the power of user
generated content and peer proofing it, they do see the
power of that. And so I'm sure with a lot of
the lot of the other stuff that's going there as they're
indexing it, they're filtering alot out.
But to its core, it's a good source to actually generate
answers because at the end of the day, your peers saying
(15:22):
rating it up. And the great thing about it too
is everyone knows how crazy the mods are and Reddit, right?
Like you think you're trying to answer the great question.
Next thing you know, you're going to yell at 50 times and
your whole counts banned. Like so they do a good job at
making sure that hey, if it's something that's in there or if
someone's trying to gamify the system, it's had this system in
place for so long that's alreadygood at removing a lot of
things. And so I'm very curious about to
your point earlier, like how much crap just going to get
(15:43):
wiped out, like just with, you know, the last three months,
everyone dumping it, the rest ofthe year dumping it.
So. Yeah.
And I'm curious because like look, it doesn't happen anymore.
It's much harder now, but there was a time where they were just,
but everyone was buying reviews,right?
Amazon is like it just a dis cesspool of fake reviews.
And then they started putting sites that will text, catch the
fake reviews and then they started reviewing the sites that
(16:05):
caught the reviews. So like you just, I think these
levels of authenticity, everything becomes capitalism at
some point, which is why you brought up a good point about
Chachi BT being able to make purchases from it.
Yeah, they get a cut. We finally got there.
We know why. Like that $20.00 a month from
those 10 million people, God forbid that was enough.
So the shareholders one more andthey're about to go public.
It's going to be the first company open AI at a billion, at
(16:26):
a trillion dollar valuation. OK, think about that.
With they come out, they're like, we're not with.
Nothing. For profits it's.
It's going to be it's going to change everything.
But again, this is where I say no enough to be dangerous.
You got to predict the future a little bit, right?
Like one of the things I was shocked by is all you talk about
with Elon Musk and what a crazy person he is.
(16:47):
X is still crazy influential in all this is it's more than
Facebook. I mean, it's, it's just crazy to
again, and I don't know, I'm not, look, I'm not saying be
neurotic like me and log into all of these things three times
a day to get a feel for what's going on out there.
But I am saying if you were relying on somebody else in your
business to do this work for youor God forbid, an agency to do
this work for you, they're not going to do it.
(17:08):
They're not going to do it. They have 20 employees that are
spending fifty accounts that their time is not optimized.
There's nothing in it for them besides the paycheck.
They're not trying to learn and push it.
So you have to be dangerous. You have to know enough what
else? What do you see the next couple
of months looking like? Obviously there's plenty of tips
in tab, but what do you think? How does this pan out?
(17:29):
Are they going to keep talking about?
Are there going to be more and more companies coming into this
space? Are they going to see old SEO
agencies go out of business? Are they going to adjust?
What do you see the kind of the marketplace and business look
like? No, no, definitely, yeah.
And so I see and and so one thing is, is the great thing
about Geo or whatever this this new role is going to be that
that kind of works along with the SEO specialists?
Is it to your point earlier, it's just another Sleece piece
(17:51):
of the pie. You still going to have the need
for SEO, It's still highly important.
Even if for some reason Google search dropped 50% of search
volume and they still control 50% of the search, the
substantial amount of revenue that you still need someone in
SEO to make sure you're there. And So what I see a lot of is I
see a lot of SEO agencies actually bringing this on as
another, as another service added on to their existing
services. And so one thing that I did a
(18:13):
bit differently being in the SEOworld for so long is, is I
wanted to focus purely on how doI understand how AI search
works? How do I master this completely?
And then and then, you know, working with other agencies,
whether it's training their team, whether they're saying,
Hey, we need you to bring you onas a partner and kind of help us
with these these specific type of accounts.
But to me, I see, I see it continuing to grow into a true
(18:34):
role. I see it now in the industry,
people are hiring Geo experts. They're basically hiring
somebody. Hey, I know I need you to help
fix AI search. I see it in our inbounds all,
all the time. But I would say it's funny, the
number one request that I get right now is Reddit influencing.
That's the number one I think I see right now is everyone kind
of, I don't know if it's like whether it's a hot keyword,
everyone's like, I need to get aReddit.
I think what it is because there's a million tools that
(18:56):
track your prompts and they all show the same thing.
Every citation is being referenced as Reddit.
And so that's why over the next few months, at least to the end
of the quarter, I'm very curiousto see what Reddit looks like in
terms of a bunch of spam coming in.
Are they going to release notes?Hey we fixed this problem.
Yeah, yeah, because that's the other, that's the other downfall
of this, right? Because you have AI, you're
asking AI what you should do. And if it tells everybody to do
(19:17):
the same thing, you know, one ofthe things that I find the most
fascinating, OK. Like, so unfortunately,
marketers today want to sit in ahigh castle and just make
strategy. OK?
This is the name of the game. I mean, I can't tell you how
many events I go to and I'm justsitting there.
I'm like, man, this is a freaking circle jerk of people
telling, telling each other how awesome they are.
There's no thought leading. No one's doing anything because
(19:39):
they don't want to do the work. When you get into it, man, when
you sent me over those 17 pages of code, that is work.
That is not AI generated. That is work.
When you look at how hard it is to get backlinks, even to make
the AI agents to write articles to the right parameters like
this is work. This is manual labor.
Anyone you believe that is automating these systems is
(19:59):
lying to you. What it's doing is getting the
lowest hanging garbage fruit, which to be honest with you
doesn't help your authority score.
Look, I'm not saying when you'rea business brand new, yeah,
automate everything. But if you want to play with the
big boys and. Start getting to that level.
You know, one of the one of the things I found fascinating is
since I've taken this roll over it, it almost doesn't even look
at some of my local competitors.Like it's like, don't even worry
(20:20):
about these idiots. Like they're putting me with
diamonds direct and and rare carrot and the big corporate.
That's who I'm going after. So I don't know if that because
we don't even sell online. So I don't know if that's a
we're just playing in a different league.
I don't know if it's the amount of money we're spending, but you
see these things. And I also think that one of the
really cool things that if you look at digital and all the
stuff we're talking about, used to be here to spend 100 grand to
(20:42):
do market research, right? You know how much market
research a $10,000 Google campaign will give you if you
give it the time to just learn keywords, headers, time of year.
You don't have to be a rocket science to know that the dual
industry is going to spend more around Christmas.
But to get an idea, and the biggest compliment to me, all
competitors are doing is trying to come in and buy my keywords.
The Salomon Brothers keyword is spiking and they're all fighting
(21:04):
for it. So I'm like, you know what, you
idiots, you fight for it. I'm not going to buy my own
keyword. They trust us.
We have all this other stuff. We have all these other
mechanisms. And to your point there, just to
interject is I do see a correlation to brand search on
Google and to, to, to, to AI search results too.
It does, you know, if the brand is recognized, like the search
volume you were saying earlier is pretty massive.
(21:24):
It correlates pretty closely. And so, so I think it's, I think
it's important to your point earlier, it's like, you know,
focus on your branding. How, what do people know about
your brand? I mean, that's one of the
specific LMTXT files we create is a brand specific.
So on the AI crawls website, we want them to know exactly who
you are and exactly who you're trying to get in front of and
what problem you solve. And so, so I think that they
correlate together, you know, whether it's your branding,
(21:46):
whether it's your SEO, whether it's Geo, so, so even.
The ads, man, even the ads, if they've heard of you before,
they're more likely to click on you out of the three.
I mean, it's again, this is not rocket science.
This is not human nature. You always go towards
familiarity. Even if you don't know what
Salomon Brothers does. You just heard Salomon Brothers.
You're like, how many moving companies are there like Braves
movers, Falcon movers? They're not.
(22:06):
They have nothing affility. They just you can't lock off
that. So, so you know, I think really
my question for you now is that I understand one of the
differences between, well, branding as a whole, but Geo
SEO, all these different things is the investment You pay
gradually grows and builds as opposed to something like Google
(22:27):
ads. When you shut it off, it falls
off a Cliff. And I try to explain to people
like, look, if you're looking atGoogle Ads as an advertising
source, you're a fool. Google Ads is the Yellow Pages,
is the capture saw is the net. You have to set out all the
lures, Google, they're just clever enough that they're
making you pay to use the net, right?
Like it's it's, it's the biggestcon ever.
And but we'll talk another time.And I know I'm going to be shut
(22:49):
down. It's not going to go viral for
saying this, but I will tell youright now that I promise you met
and Google, at some point we'll go back in history.
It will be complicit and some ofthe greatest fraud this country
has ever seen. The way they perpetrate
fraudulent information and allowit to go and the search, it's
just insane. But that being said, all that
being said, if I'm such a why amI still using it?
The answer is is because becauseof the brand I have, the return
(23:11):
on investment I get is so it's insane not to use it.
So but what talk a little bit about how the Geo investment
grows and amplifies. It's not just something that you
pay and like it stops. If you stop, you probably won't.
And now look, this pace is the timeline speed up a little bit,
but you probably won't start seeing detriment for six months,
(23:31):
year 2, five years depending on how much you have established.
So talk a little bit about that,how if you're selling somebody
who's like, hey, look, I have $1500, I'm going to either use
you or I'm going to go pay for ads.
First off, if you have 1500 jobs, you think it's going to
help you with ads, you're out ofyour freaking mind.
But talk a little bit about, unless you're in like a town of
300 people, talk a little bit about how Geo, SEO, even some
(23:52):
brand marketing pays longer termdividends and how important it
is to have those in a line before you start doing some real
performance marketing. No, for sure.
Yeah. And that's a good point.
I always correlate that back to the early SEO days.
It's like, it's like SEO, you know, the brands that adopted
SEO and Google search early on did very well.
You know, there's a lot of brands that was slower to
(24:13):
adoption. You know, there was like, you
know, now it's like you have to have it right.
You're either using a consultantyou have in house, you have an
agency. Now we all know that SEO is, is
one of the highest ROI's in any marketing stack.
And so with Geo, what Geo is, Geo is actually moving a lot
faster than what we would have said with Google search.
Google search was no one knew about that.
Like I'm not using that, I'm going to the yellow page.
And I would, I would venture to say that's because Google search
(24:33):
had one entity and now AI has people competing for the space
And I've that it comes either they buy each other out, but
you're not going to see a pace of six of these competitors.
That's not just not how this country works.
So I think that the pace will slow eventually.
First of all, just seeing how bad they bat, they botched GPT 5
makes me think the pace is goingto slow because that that that
was not a good. That is not a good system.
I mean, it, it breaks, it freezes, it hangs, it does worse
(24:56):
for me than GPT 4 was. So that was a corporate, the
corporate board of director saying, get this out now.
I don't care. But sorry, keep going.
No, no, you're good. Yeah.
And that's a good point too, is it is relying on it as we rely
more on to this, whether it's our daily search, whether it's
how do I cook a piece of steak, you know, whatever we rely on,
we're relying on at the point where if they have a bad release
(25:17):
or it's pulling bad data or whatever, you know, that's
something just to just to be reminded of.
But, but in terms of the business, you know, brands right
now that are adopting it, you know, I personally think are
going to be, you know, are goingto be in a much better spot.
Even in the earlier brands that did that did Google back in the
day, you know, everyone knew Google back in the day.
I think right now it's, it's a must for any brand.
(25:37):
You have to get behind it. Even if you're not seeing the
growth immediately. It's just like anything.
Everyone knows when you start SEO, you have no traffic.
You're not going to get sales your next day.
It takes time to deliver best practices.
You're competing against brands that have been around for a long
time, right? Like why?
But, but let me ask you this question because I think this is
really important. Isn't that also a competitive
advantage to an extent? Because one of the things I
understand is, is that SEO and its first wasn't about locality.
(26:00):
Geo is about local and relevant.So you can, as a little guy that
is playing in this game, competewith some of the bigger guys.
That wasn't the case when SEO started because locality, they
had to take time to figure out people don't want national
companies or they don't want to be about things that are 200
miles away from them. It took time for the Internet to
figure that out. So as much as that's true, isn't
that, isn't that an advantage for a local company that can
(26:22):
start playing these game? Isn't an advantage for a small
company to be an early adopter of this?
Isn't there something about thatthat's just almost like a great
equalizer one? 100%, yeah.
I they said every business that's in business should be
whether you're down from a plumber, whether you're a large
brand. Because to your point is, it's
in my opinion, it's easier to see the best practices.
It's easier to see exactly why these results were chosen for
(26:46):
the prompts. And the prime example of that is
we work with a lot of cannabis brands.
A lot of they've got a combination of e-commerce mixed
with their door to door, whetherit's delivery or it's an in
person establishment. And we're seeing brands come in,
you know, we're setting up best practices and they're able to
take advantage massively of their AI search.
Their SEO is lagging a little bit behind, but you've got
brands that do great and SEO that have no idea because
(27:07):
they're not programming right. And so we've seen a lot of local
brands specifically. And I would argue,
unfortunately, that's because the cannabis space has become
commoditized, right? Everyone's selling the same
stuff. So it's just a race to the
bottom of price. They're very few established
brands. They're also new that it's it's
really it just becomes a price sensitivity if everyone's
selling the same stuff, especially because this they're
(27:29):
all buying the same garbage. A lot of them when it's not even
legalized, they're buying the same garbage hem stuff.
So I mean, that's another problem, right?
Like you cannot. Though it goes to, it goes to if
you know, say 50 brands in the city are competing and 49 of
them have been around for a longtime and they're all selling the
trash. But then one comes in and gets
set up with properly and now they're the one that is selling
(27:49):
the product a lot more or you know, even within six months,
brands that have been doing it for years, they're able to beat
them out on air. That's a good.
That's a good point. What you're saying is, is that
the mechanisms amplify the word of mouth, which has always been
the strongest form of advertising.
I think that's a really good wayto put it, Geo.
That's why you go to something like Reddit.
Reddit is word of mouth. It's people sharing information
as much as reviews are. I don't think people trust that
(28:11):
Google is doing anything out of the goodness of their heart
anymore because they're such a monstrosity of a company.
That's a really good point. I think I'm going to use that.
It's a it is better attuned to amplify word of mouth mouth
advertising. All right, so I want to leave it
with this because I think you'vebeen super helpful.
Talk about the biggest players in the space.
So your perplexities, your claw,talk about some of those and
talk about on the back end what you're seeing and kind of the
(28:32):
difference. So very quickly I see like I use
Copilot, which is off GPT, but because it works with Microsoft.
So Microsoft is going to do their damnedest to make sure
anybody in a business space leans as much into Microsoft as
possible, right? It already starting to read
LinkedIn. It's doing all these tools that
really, if it wanted to, it could block Box from crawling
LinkedIn. It's not gonna, but it could.
(28:53):
Google tends to be like Google does, trying to get out ahead of
this. And they're very focused on
video and general video generation and stuff like that
where they know their investments can pay the
advantage. You know, open AI was a leader.
Perplexity seems to be more advanced thought and research.
Talk about what you've seen fromthe back end about how these
tools differ. No, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think that's a good point
because you see a lot of software out there that's like,
(29:15):
hey, we market everything from perplexity to Claude to Chachi
BT, you know, grok, whatever you're trying to use.
But at the end of the day, similar to search engines, the
majority of people are using oneand it's Chachi BT right now.
There's a, there's a, there's a lot of people that are using
perplexity copilot. I use Claude often for any kind
of data that I'm using. But in terms of, you know, first
market early to market, Chachi BT was kind of like the brand
(29:37):
that came out. And so when people think of,
hey, I'm going to, I want to look up something, it's Chachi,
BT and even some of the brands that we have sites that are
getting 2 million visits a month, You know, 98% of all that
traffic is coming from ChatGPT, which is, which is astonishing.
And So what we do and when we goabout our strategies, we start
with ChatGPT. That's the first thing that we
do. We, you know what, you know,
spend a lot of time diving in, alot of AB testing to kind of
(29:57):
figure out what we need to do. But that's, that's the platform
that we primarily focus on as welook at it as, hey, people go to
Google for search. We know people are going to
ChatGPT for search. And we correlate that to the
data that we have available to us.
And so when it comes to perplexity, you know, Claude,
anything like that, we truly think of it as as as kind of
like how Google is, right? If you're dominating, you're
(30:17):
doing well on Google with your SEO.
If you're doing well and gettingsurfaced on ChatGPT, generally
you're going to be ranking across your other LMS.
Granted, that's not the case. We track everything in in detail
across quite a few of them, but we spend most of our time trying
to understand to get in front ofthe ChatGPT just because we see
that having the highest ROI for the clients.
Yeah. So that's what I brought up
earlier where you think there's going to be, I think there's
going to be consolidation, right?
(30:38):
You these guys with the evaluations to some of these
companies. If ChatGPT is doing 90% of the
traffic and they're at a trillion dollar valuation,
right, then, yeah, there's $100 billion out there.
Don't get me wrong, there's, youknow, there's $100 million,
there's a billion, there's lots of money, but there's not enough
money to be going at the pace ofexpansion that we're going at
right now. So, you know, I also imagine
(30:59):
like Microsoft has that huge investment in open AI.
There's going to be other peoplethat come in like, you know,
you're Larry Ellison's like you see this, this just happening
everywhere, right? All of a sudden you merge Tick
Tock with the right AI company. And I think perplexity was the
one that was going to buy Chrome.
Like if you start seeing all these things and like, I love
that was another great example of how dumb we are as a country.
So Chrome, if Google has Chrome,they're a monopoly, but you're
(31:21):
going to sell Chrome for $300 billion.
Well, who do you think is going to be able to afford Chrome?
Somebody else who has a monopoly.
So we are in the new Gilded Age.These are too big to fail.
Like we're never going to be able to go backwards.
And I encourage people, do not put your head in the sand.
Start with the easiest things. But for me, the big aha moment
(31:42):
was recently, believe it or not,it was 5 or 6 months ago where I
read a book and it's like, look,you're looking at this all
wrong. This is not AI is not questions.
AI ask you the questions, give it the parameters and have it
ask you the questions to give you the best answer.
You are the thought leader. You are the leader.
This is just a tool. I see everybody talking to it
like it's the boss. And that is 1 when the machines
(32:02):
are going to rise up, but two also don't be scared, man.
Do you know how many times I have I got I have and add a 2016
gigabyte graphics card. I have a with the computer has
as good as it comes. The whole computer freezes on me
because I'm running prompts so hard and it doesn't know what to
do. It just stops.
So it's not there yet. The machines are not taking
(32:23):
over. It's gotten immensely better.
It is crazy to see how much better it is at doing graphics
and context, but we're not near there.
Dip your toe in the sand. Start with simple tasks learn
from it program. But you could see I could see
why advertising industry is terrified.
I have a place, the job of 10 people with one bot who just
learns more and more and more and more and more.
(32:44):
And it's starting to preemptively say do this.
And then now you see it's learning like adding to memory
so you can program it to do these things.
So I just my advice is, especially if you're going to
use Geo, the only way to really do it is to learn the tools,
right. If you're doing SEO and you
don't understand how Google Tag Manager works, you got a big
problem. And I think it's one of the
advantages that I've taken. I design our web, I'm doing the
(33:06):
scripts, I'm doing the tech and yes, it's exhausting and I'm
killing myself mentally, but think about it, who's going to
screw me over right now? It's very hard.
And you know when you had the way, you know when you've
succeeded is when you ask a question and people just hang up
the phone or stop answering you because like, uh oh, let's go
find another dummy. Like, and I say it, I'm like,
look, there's a lot of dummies out there.
I'm not one of them. Either fix this or hang up the
and like, you just got to be smart and dangerous.
(33:30):
Why don't you leave it with somefinal thoughts and then give us,
give it, give everyone a way to find you in case this stuff is
appealing and it's something they want to do.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a final is just,
it's the thing that you said earlier about, you know, when
everyone has ChatGPT, it's learning about you as the user,
it learns about you. It understands your prior, your
prompts, your language style, everything along those lines.
And so you have to understand the importance for a brand to
(33:50):
make sure that they, they're investing in something.
So that way when someone does, they are looking for
recommendations and your brand is being listed, you know, it is
important to get in there early because you know, next time
they're asking questions or nexttime they're having similar
prompts like that, you know, it's going to surface things
that are important to them within those prompts.
So I implore every brand, make sure that you're at least
looking into this. Play around with it.
(34:10):
Ask ChatGPT or any other LLM, what do you know about my brand?
And just start with that alone because of because the earlier
you can get in there, the more prompts, the more the more
accounts you can lock in there. Just the easier it's going to be
as things just start scaling andthings turn into instant
purchasing, instant booking and all that stuff.
Yeah, yeah, money's always goingto be involved before you say
you're where to find you. As we talk about every single
(34:32):
thing that we've spoken about, talk a little bit about like you
can't. We're unfortunately, this
country requires instant gratification for everything.
Just for a quick second, explainthe time and how this works and
how there are guardrails in place for it to not work
quickly. Talk a little bit about just,
you can't imagine this to expectthis to work overnight.
This is a six month year, 18 month process.
(34:53):
You'll always see gradual, but you're never going to see that
exponential clip. If you do go and Google ads
again, you'll see it, but it'll drop off as fast as it comes on.
So just so you match expectations, talk a little bit
about time frame and the work required to do this.
And how come it's not just something that can be
immediately done? Absolutely.
Yeah. And that's a good point.
You mentioning bad actors, it's like in the SEO world, right?
There's a lot of great Seos and there's a lot and there's a lot
of Seos that unfortunately do bad practices that can affect
(35:15):
entire brands. And so I think right now with
Geo being the new hot topic and ranking in ChatGPT core brands,
be cautious, right? You know, just like SEO, there's
people who are just trying to quick make a quick buck saying,
Hey, we're going to do these 10 things that might look good to
you and it's going to help you, but it could, it could, it could
actually harm you. And so I think it's important to
to really understand, you know, when you're meeting with
somebody to ask those right questions, because just like an
(35:37):
SEO people, right, or just saying, Hey, I took a course, I
know how to do this. I don't go down that route.
Work with the professionals asking the questions, make them
show results, especially with something is new with as new as
this and give you an idea of what that looks like.
You know, our first month when we do our analysis, we do an
entire AEO. So we analyze the pages on a
website to understand exactly how the AI see them.
(35:59):
And we're not just talking aboutChatGPT.
We start with ChatGPT, we go down to perplexity, go down to
clock. We understand exactly how they
see them and then how they correlate that together.
And so just starting with that, you know, and then understand,
OK, this is what this is what weneed to have on this page.
And so then we need to understand it by category.
And so then we're creating custom code as you know, where
it needs to be deployed site wide.
So these are the best practices for for necklaces, for instance.
(36:22):
So now we need to make sure that's deployed across every
single necklace page. But it doesn't just stop with
that. Something that we do is we
actually monitor every single page against competitors.
So that we say, hey, this is a top competitor that right now is
surfacing an answer. This is where we're at.
What are we missing? And so and so you can imagine,
you know, just doing that and AIis a tool.
But to be to be great as a marketer, you have to use the
tool. Don't let the tool become you,
(36:43):
right? People just use AI.
Write A blog, they write me thiscode, it's a tool with it.
But don't make that just be 900%of what you're doing.
And so yeah, the. Internet, those these systems
don't like laziness. They could smell laziness a mile
away, right? You cannot.
I think the I'm going to say this from the other side as the
brand guy. Like that doesn't mean you have
somebody sign up to be your Geo guy and don't ask any questions
(37:06):
for six months. You need to ask, hey,
specifically what did you do? So one, you're keeping them
honest 2 that you're learning along the way, right?
Because unfortunately I've also seen the other side where you
know, you have a guy who says I'm going to do this and then
they show you in the first monththat they built an agent to
write you these articles. It's like, OK, so cool.
And so how about if you're goingto do that, I'll buy the agent
(37:26):
from you and I'll just do it that way and do it myself.
Why would I pay you to use AI tojust write an agent like and,
and then that's the other part of this.
So, you know, look, it is the Wild West.
I think that everybody, you know, at least get a
consultation. Matt does a really good job.
I've enjoyed working with him. We, we skip a lot of the BS and
kind of just get down to the nitty gritty, which is required
nowadays. Tell everybody how to find you
(37:47):
and and tell them some about some of the companies that you
specialize working with and where you see there's the most
opportunity. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So, so again, named Matthew
Caddy the the mad Caddy. You can just mad caddy.com or
find me on LinkedIn. Easy to find.
Matthew Caddy. You know, we're always about
since it is so new and it is theWild West.
You know, I do, I do take my time meeting with meeting with
everybody, helping them fully understand it.
(38:08):
Someone like Nick, he's good at what he does.
He's he's basically like we spend 15 minutes.
He's like, I got to move on. But I but someone needs me to,
you know, hold their hand. Absolutely, especially with
something so new, the spaces that I see a lot in is
definitely the e-commerce e-commerce is is just if you're
an E com right now and you don'thave a strategy like this right
now, like I'll, I will literallydo a free audit and show you
what that looks like just because you have to see because
(38:29):
it is it is so important. It'll shock you once you put a
strategy in place, how much revenue you have.
We've got you know, we've got some brands that are hitting 30X
ROIA month right now because they're making all their
purchases through the site. So, so it's things like that
just coming purely from chat, CBT, it's things like that where
it does become a new channel that you may have not within six
months, nine months, you're now generating enough to, to make
(38:50):
some big decisions at your business.
So definitely something to keep in mind.
But on the flip side of it, be cautious of spam emails and
everything you're getting about someone, these gurus popping up
out of nowhere like we've been there.
Don't risk it. You know, make sure you're
asking a lot of good questions and, and do your own research.
You got you got LLMS. Now ask them if they say
something, pop it in there and say let's start doing your own
research on that. Yeah, yeah.
(39:12):
I agree with that. All right, man.
Well, look, it's been great. And I think that we're probably
going to get some comments and questions.
So I think we might have to do afollow up soon just with a
little bit more Q&A because I think it is the Wild West.
I appreciate it, brother. Mad Caddy, the Mad Caddy you've
been listening to the marketing man, and we'll catch you next
time. Thanks Dick, good chat.
They say marketing is a mad man's game.
So now we turned it over to the marketing madman with Nick
Constantino and Trip Joe. All right, welcome to the
marketing madman. Nick Constantino here.
We got a special episode for you.
And I say special because this is another one of those I have
learned a lot. I've I it's been necessary for
(00:23):
me to learn. So let me introduce the mad
caddy. Mad Caddy Matt, how you doing
bud? Good, good, good.
Thank you for having me on. Blast to have you.
So OK, before we get into the nitty gritty of this, introduce
yourself briefly. Talk about what led you to the
role you're in today. Before you divulge that, because
I want to be able to have this grand rollout, talk a little bit
about the work you've done previously that led to the
(00:44):
current iteration of the company.
Awesome. Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you. SO in my background, I've been
doing, I've been in the digital marketing space for a long time,
about a decade, primarily focused on SEO.
Search was kind of like my passion.
I love the Internet wanted to figure out how to control that,
how to get the results we wanted, you know, and as
everything evolved, you know, AIcame around, you know, started
seeing the writing on the wall in terms of what that looked
(01:05):
like, how we're gathering information, where it's going.
And so really kind of looked at the next evolution of what
search is very exciting, you know, that it happens to be with
AI and, and started to kind of shift my shift my focus over
there. I've built, built and sold
agencies, built teams, been in this space for quite a bit of
time before going on venturing on my own for about the last
(01:25):
five years, serving as a consultant for some pretty large
brands, and now just looking forward to this next evolution
of search. Yeah, yeah, man.
So if you haven't figured it out, we are talking about let's
call it SEO slash AEO slash Geo.And I'm gonna have you go
through each of those because I think like any ripe new
industry, there's so many bad actors and so many people trying
(01:48):
to take advantage and and so much of that.
So really what we're talking about is SEO used to be shit,
just you having a website to start and then it became blogs
and then it became images and then it became videos and then
it became schema and then it became Google My Business.
And then it became where are we searching?
What are we doing that is now evolving where the structure of
the data has to be more respondent to someone searching
(02:10):
AI. So tell me about this or I want
to know this. And the easiest way for me to
say it and then I want you to elaborate is as human beings, we
used to have our own consideration sets.
Now we are turning our consideration sets over to the
machines to process a lot of thework that we didn't want to do.
Right. So as an easy example, I'm about
to hit a plane to go to Puerto Rico.
I used to have to manually go in, go on Yelp, cross reference
(02:34):
with Google, find distances. Now you can literally plug in
here's my airport, here's my hotel, ask me 5 questions, plan
me an itinerary and it will do all of that work for you.
More precisely, probably more margin for error because you're
leaving a lot to a machine, but the more specific you are with
it, it works the same way with the Internet.
These people are allowing the AIto do the search criteria so as
(02:58):
to where you used to say show methe best plumber and be list of
plumbers now with some mates andsays here's the best plumber,
here's why here's this. So it's it's upended business.
So talk a little bit about just let's give a timeline.
So give us the year that we started seeing AEO come in where
it's more important for those answers.
And now when we're in this generative engine and kind of
(03:19):
the differences, I think that would be very helpful.
You know, absolutely, yeah. And so, so I think, you know,
when Open AI came out first Jet GPT, it was it was exciting.
You know, to your point there, you know, being able to get into
a system and say, hey, I want you to solve this problem for
me. And it's deliver all the
answers. I think at the end of the day,
as humans, it's user experience that we're really after, right?
The fewest amount of clicks to solve my problem.
And so with Google, they solved that problem for a long time
(03:41):
with us, right? Like optimizing it, we got the
blue links, we got the descriptions, awesome.
This is what I want. But over time it's, it's, it's
turned into more conversational.And so it, what chats you BT or
other AI's have solved for us now is I want you to solve this
problem for me and how should I do it and provide that
information? And so the exciting thing about
that is for businesses, it's a whole new frontier of getting in
(04:01):
front of customers in a quicker way.
And especially what with open AInow, now doing things in chat,
you were able to do instant purchase out of their instant
purchases on the platform. It's just, it's just very
exciting. And so, so last year is when I
started flipping my focus. I kind of saw, like I said, the
writing on the wall. I saw, hey, brands are looking
at this a lot of the bigger brands we, we had, I started
noticing ChatGPT traffic trickling in.
(04:22):
And so I took it upon myself to say, OK, how do we make this
work? And so it really does dive down
to when we look at our AEO, we look at our Geo, we look at SEO,
how they all kind of kind of work and coming altogether.
The main thing that you want to focus on is you know your crawl
ability, right? Is the, is the information
crawlable? Do you have all the right best
practices? The great thing about that is
things like structured data or schema that's been around for a
(04:43):
long time. Google has been pushing that for
a long time. And when I first got an SEO, I
just thought, hey, I'm going to learn this.
It's something they asked for. They have a whole portion of the
website dedicated that. So I started teaching that,
teach learning that myself. And so now where we're at is now
they're saying, hey, you have tohave this on your site.
And so it's just exciting to be able to basically mark up
everything on the site, make sure everything's crawlable.
(05:04):
You know, you got your lol dot TXT files.
You're basically saying, hey, when you crawl my site, this is
how I want you to do it. So it gives you a lot of control
that way. And then in terms of when you're
generating Geo and tracking which prompts you're in and
actually organizing your contentnow getting the importance of,
Hey, you know, we all knew in SEO or your header structure is
important, but now it's, it's highly important.
How is the structure on, on yourpage?
(05:25):
And so I look at things now as each page is almost a database,
right? We want the crawlers to pull
from information from that, makesure that everything's marked
up. And so in your case, the Salomon
brothers, we've got, you know, we've got jewelry, right?
So when someone, when the AI is crawling for that, are we
telling them how to properly clean it?
Are we telling them the material?
Are we telling everything that? Right, there's so much more that
goes into it and I think the biggest thing for me what I'm
(05:46):
realizing is is that it has to all live in one place and be
easy to go to, right. So like most business owners are
really good at their one thing. They don't know the whole you
need the full gamut of the business.
You need to know credit terms, you need to know that we are all
for extending support, but you can't just hit him in the face
and say extended warranty. You have to talk about why the
warranty is important and what could go wrong because the way
(06:08):
it pulls information is differently.
I mean, and like, look, go back,I mean, the reason that SEO
exists, every one gets it wrong,right?
Look, it exists because Google wants to make money.
And the easiest way for them themoney is to serve hyper relevant
information to the people in which are searching it, so they
spend more time on it. There's no other way around it,
right? And it's algorithms that say
(06:28):
what you will about it, but the day of just paying us a ton of
money to Google don't exist anymore.
Now, that being said, let's calla spade a spade.
If you pay Google more and they're more lenient with you
and I'm never going to have anyone argument with that meta.
The second you start paying, allof a sudden it's just it's
amazing using how quickly some of these gears turn that weren't
turning before, right? Any of them read it, They shut
(06:48):
down every page. All of a sudden you start
paying. It's like we've accepted every
single thing you've done. Like we don't have to lie about
it. Money makes anything go, but all
of a sudden now you starting to see some of these things that if
somebody went on Google and it gave it the wrong information,
they're going to go to DuckDuckGo or something else,
right? You got to look at Bing nowadays
because of the ChatGPT ownershipstate that Microsoft has, you'd
(07:11):
be a fool not to believe Bing isgoing to be incorporated into
this to some capacity, right? There are all these little
nuances that I'm not saying you got to be an expert on, but I
think the terminology I use to be a marketer today, you have to
know enough to be dangerous in every facet of business of web
design. If you don't, you are relying on
other people. And that's where we're going to
(07:31):
come to the bad actor. So you and I have developed a
relationship which which makes this easier, right?
Like I'm not micromanaging. We, we got together and say this
is the end goal. I'm not necessarily care how you
get there. All I care is that along the way
you drop Nuggets for me. So I understand the process,
right? That's not how most of this
works. Most of the time it's a
completely ignorant marketing person who's going to a company
(07:53):
who's baiting them in with some completely ridiculous phrases
like make your Geo go up 66,000%in Day 1 based on one case study
that happened in Anchorage, AK on a Tuesday.
Well, there was a complete solarblackout.
Like it's just insane. So talk a little bit about, I
want to get into some best practices of what people can do
because I want to be helpful, but talk about what to lookout
(08:14):
for. Talk about what a lot of these
companies that just popped up out of nowhere are doing to bait
you in and why they're not doingwhat is necessary for for what
we're talking about here. Definitely, Absolutely.
Yeah. And to piggyback on that, you're
absolutely right. Something I think that's
important when we look at like the importance of the crawlers
and SEO and the difference is about making sure you're doing
things right is like even understanding, you know, that's
(08:36):
the crawl time on the website. How much more computing power
does it take for an AI to crawl a slower website versus the
faster loading, faster loading website?
So those are some of the things that I look at at a detailed
level because it all does kind of add up to that.
And so some of the biggest, the best practices first starting
with that is start with your site speed.
I know they've always pushed that for a long time, but I got
to look at it like, Hey, open a,you know, everyone's been on
(08:57):
chat computer, all AI. It's like, hey, you're
programming too fast. Wait, that's their signal saying
they're computing at a high level.
And so at the same time, when you're when they're crawling a
website, they're trying to surface an answer, they're
trying to get something. Maybe it's a deep scan.
How long does it load the website?
You know, things like that do add up and understanding, you
know that we all know it, it matters to load it fast.
But now it's like it's actually taking computing power to do
that. So I think with the first thing
(09:19):
is just make sure you have a fast living website and well,
that's a broken record. Everyone in SCO said that, but
now we actually have hard data tie to exactly why now from the
AI point of view. The second thing is make sure
you mark up the structure date on your website.
Go to schema.org and do it. It's it's it, it takes time to
to mark up your entire website. And there's ways that we do what
we do on the special order with Salomon Brothers.
There is, you know, we want to automate this site wide.
(09:40):
So that way you're pulling new fields.
You have 5000 products, you needto make sure they have all best
practices. No need to do that one at a
time. It should be deployed site
because those are standard now. They need to crawl and
understand the website of as quickly as possible and to
understand how they may see it is go click on any of your web
pages and right clicking, save the page as look at all the
HTML. That's exactly what they're
(10:01):
crawling when they look at your websites.
Gives you a lot of insights intoactually what they see, and
that's why it's super, super important.
Yeah, but like, don't pretend like I don't.
We don't need you to understand what those codes are.
Understand that it is. It is a numbers game.
And it's funny because like, when you talk about things like
page speed, it's almost counterintuitive, right?
Because you're compressing images down, they don't look as
good. The videos look blurry.
But it's just it. With any technology, we've moved
(10:23):
so fast that the speed of the servers are calling into
question the speed of your computer.
I mean, there's so many things here that it, it's amazing.
Like it's almost that again, perfect is the enemy of good.
Like you're not striving for perfection right now.
You are striving to play these games, get as much information
out, making it as digestible as possible, which also makes some
(10:44):
of the original things, right? Like that's why brand marketing
is so important right now. All these companies that spend
all this time in their performance marketing, who do
you think is getting annihilatedright now?
I see it every day in every direction.
Two companies. One are the companies that spend
all their time on operations. You can be the best operational
company. AI doesn't understand your
operations business at all. It understands a directory and
(11:06):
it's trying to create a directory and #2 are the ones
that just unloaded everything into Google Ads and Meta.
They spend everything on performance.
They have no brand whatsoever. You don't want to know why
Salomon Brothers will be OK? 75% of my traffic come in people
searching Salomon Brothers. What is AI going to do there?
Do you know how much money it would cost for somebody to come
in and steal Salomon Brothers, which is not illegal to do.
(11:27):
They could call it Salomon Sisters and they would never.
The barrier to entry is so high.So part of the reason I say it
is, is because I don't want to get lost in the, this is one
part of the marketing funnel, right?
So when you do this stuff, it's not like stop everything you're
doing and go Geo. Matt and I, when we started
talking that my thought was because I had just started doing
this seven months ago, 8 months ago was I want to put 10% of my
(11:49):
budget to future proofing. OK, What I did not think what it
was going to come so quickly that what was me future proofing
8 months ago is already now proofing and we're in it.
But that being said, you also been good enough to show me how
we go versus some of our competitors.
And we're so far ahead of them without even really turning the
juice on yet. So, so again, it this is like we
always talk about in the show, this is part of a full funnel
(12:12):
approach. There are tools you can use.
I've been blown away by how powerful press releases are.
For example, when I search our other show that we started
Legacy of Luxury, if I search that five years, it would have
taken years for the algorithms to catch it.
I search it and because we put out a press release, it pulled
exactly from the press release and says Legacy of Luxury is a
new show with this, this and this, right?
(12:33):
It doesn't work if there's only one place, but a good paid press
release should have thousands ofpeople.
So the Internet, it's almost forcing you to crawl it.
So those are, those are little things that I think, and I think
a lot of it's stuff you can do yourself, but you just got to be
deliberate with your intention. Wake up one day and be like,
look, first of all, anything youdo with SEO is going to help
Geo. Anything you do with Geo is
going to help with SEO, right? We woke up and all of a sudden
(12:56):
now what was it 2 weeks ago thatGemini was #1 in Apple, it had
already passed Chat, ChatGPT. Google wasn't going to lose this
game, right? We've seen that too many
Blockbuster videos, too many Xerox and Kodak's, too many of
these companies that are not adapted, that is not going to be
Google. They are so far ahead of this.
And you see the gear starting toturn right, like you start
seeing now they're image generation and blah, blah, blah,
(13:17):
blah, blah. So I think be part of a full
funnel approach. All right, so you gave some good
advice there. Talk a little bit about Reddit
because I was shocked to see when I saw that Reddit is being
pulled, that AI is pulling 45% of its content from Reddit.
Now I have to imagine that was because for a long time Reddit
was not advertising based and that if I was a betting man, the
advertising of it is going to drop that ranking down because
(13:39):
it's going to start being filledwith more nonsense and stuff you
could pay for. But talk about now how important
that is. And why it's pulling from
something like Reddit. No, for sure, Yeah, for sure.
It see, Reddit's interesting, you know, because, you know, you
look, you look at Reddit, you know, it could be a form of an
echo chamber, you know, kind of like looking at it, but you
realize the power that's behind user generated content.
And so with something like Reddit is you have an infinite
(13:59):
amount of subreddits where people are confirming pieces of
information, asking questions, they're getting a response.
And then you're looking at people who've, you know, had
accounts and they're saying, hey, this is the one that's most
likely. I mean, there's game shows based
on that same logic, right? Like you don't know the answer.
You ask the crowd. 75% of the crowd.
Be prepared. Be prepared when you ask.
Like like twitters A cesspool, but twitters A cesspool with
(14:20):
three sentences. I went into a Reddit on a
jewelry chain of a guy asking why his the girl who was getting
smelled so bad and it was a novel about the smell.
And I honestly, I was reading I go, I go honestly, I don't know
if this is a fetish thing. I don't know why people are
reading this, but it was one of the trendiest, right?
And I was like, OK, like it'll also be prepared that whatever
you post, you're going to get people who are just going to
(14:41):
lambasted and just like it, justcome to terms with it.
Don't. Don't you never want to see peek
behind the curtain of the Internet?
100% exactly. It's a basically it's a true
example of a double edged sword.Like both Google open AI,
they're all indexing of that because at the end of the day,
it's the same way. How many decisions are based off
of reviews or what are the reviews?
It's the same thing with user generated content.
Someone says, Hey, what's the best this over here?
(15:01):
And you've got everyone confirming that's what it is.
Chances are that's going to be something that you want to take
a look at. And so with the power of user
generated content and peer proofing it, they do see the
power of that. And so I'm sure with a lot of
the lot of the other stuff that's going there as they're
indexing it, they're filtering alot out.
But to its core, it's a good source to actually generate
answers because at the end of the day, your peers saying
(15:22):
rating it up. And the great thing about it too
is everyone knows how crazy the mods are and Reddit, right?
Like you think you're trying to answer the great question.
Next thing you know, you're going to yell at 50 times and
your whole counts banned. Like so they do a good job at
making sure that hey, if it's something that's in there or if
someone's trying to gamify the system, it's had this system in
place for so long that's alreadygood at removing a lot of
things. And so I'm very curious about to
your point earlier, like how much crap just going to get
(15:43):
wiped out, like just with, you know, the last three months,
everyone dumping it, the rest ofthe year dumping it.
So. Yeah.
And I'm curious because like look, it doesn't happen anymore.
It's much harder now, but there was a time where they were just,
but everyone was buying reviews,right?
Amazon is like it just a dis cesspool of fake reviews.
And then they started putting sites that will text, catch the
fake reviews and then they started reviewing the sites that
(16:05):
caught the reviews. So like you just, I think these
levels of authenticity, everything becomes capitalism at
some point, which is why you brought up a good point about
Chachi BT being able to make purchases from it.
Yeah, they get a cut. We finally got there.
We know why. Like that $20.00 a month from
those 10 million people, God forbid that was enough.
So the shareholders one more andthey're about to go public.
It's going to be the first company open AI at a billion, at
(16:26):
a trillion dollar valuation. OK, think about that.
With they come out, they're like, we're not with.
Nothing. For profits it's.
It's going to be it's going to change everything.
But again, this is where I say no enough to be dangerous.
You got to predict the future a little bit, right?
Like one of the things I was shocked by is all you talk about
with Elon Musk and what a crazy person he is.
(16:47):
X is still crazy influential in all this is it's more than
Facebook. I mean, it's, it's just crazy to
again, and I don't know, I'm not, look, I'm not saying be
neurotic like me and log into all of these things three times
a day to get a feel for what's going on out there.
But I am saying if you were relying on somebody else in your
business to do this work for youor God forbid, an agency to do
this work for you, they're not going to do it.
(17:08):
They're not going to do it. They have 20 employees that are
spending fifty accounts that their time is not optimized.
There's nothing in it for them besides the paycheck.
They're not trying to learn and push it.
So you have to be dangerous. You have to know enough what
else? What do you see the next couple
of months looking like? Obviously there's plenty of tips
in tab, but what do you think? How does this pan out?
(17:29):
Are they going to keep talking about?
Are there going to be more and more companies coming into this
space? Are they going to see old SEO
agencies go out of business? Are they going to adjust?
What do you see the kind of the marketplace and business look
like? No, no, definitely, yeah.
And so I see and and so one thing is, is the great thing
about Geo or whatever this this new role is going to be that
that kind of works along with the SEO specialists?
Is it to your point earlier, it's just another Sleece piece
(17:51):
of the pie. You still going to have the need
for SEO, It's still highly important.
Even if for some reason Google search dropped 50% of search
volume and they still control 50% of the search, the
substantial amount of revenue that you still need someone in
SEO to make sure you're there. And So what I see a lot of is I
see a lot of SEO agencies actually bringing this on as
another, as another service added on to their existing
services. And so one thing that I did a
(18:13):
bit differently being in the SEOworld for so long is, is I
wanted to focus purely on how doI understand how AI search
works? How do I master this completely?
And then and then, you know, working with other agencies,
whether it's training their team, whether they're saying,
Hey, we need you to bring you onas a partner and kind of help us
with these these specific type of accounts.
But to me, I see, I see it continuing to grow into a true
(18:34):
role. I see it now in the industry,
people are hiring Geo experts. They're basically hiring
somebody. Hey, I know I need you to help
fix AI search. I see it in our inbounds all,
all the time. But I would say it's funny, the
number one request that I get right now is Reddit influencing.
That's the number one I think I see right now is everyone kind
of, I don't know if it's like whether it's a hot keyword,
everyone's like, I need to get aReddit.
I think what it is because there's a million tools that
(18:56):
track your prompts and they all show the same thing.
Every citation is being referenced as Reddit.
And so that's why over the next few months, at least to the end
of the quarter, I'm very curiousto see what Reddit looks like in
terms of a bunch of spam coming in.
Are they going to release notes?Hey we fixed this problem.
Yeah, yeah, because that's the other, that's the other downfall
of this, right? Because you have AI, you're
asking AI what you should do. And if it tells everybody to do
(19:17):
the same thing, you know, one ofthe things that I find the most
fascinating, OK. Like, so unfortunately,
marketers today want to sit in ahigh castle and just make
strategy. OK?
This is the name of the game. I mean, I can't tell you how
many events I go to and I'm justsitting there.
I'm like, man, this is a freaking circle jerk of people
telling, telling each other how awesome they are.
There's no thought leading. No one's doing anything because
(19:39):
they don't want to do the work. When you get into it, man, when
you sent me over those 17 pages of code, that is work.
That is not AI generated. That is work.
When you look at how hard it is to get backlinks, even to make
the AI agents to write articles to the right parameters like
this is work. This is manual labor.
Anyone you believe that is automating these systems is
(19:59):
lying to you. What it's doing is getting the
lowest hanging garbage fruit, which to be honest with you
doesn't help your authority score.
Look, I'm not saying when you'rea business brand new, yeah,
automate everything. But if you want to play with the
big boys and. Start getting to that level.
You know, one of the one of the things I found fascinating is
since I've taken this roll over it, it almost doesn't even look
at some of my local competitors.Like it's like, don't even worry
(20:20):
about these idiots. Like they're putting me with
diamonds direct and and rare carrot and the big corporate.
That's who I'm going after. So I don't know if that because
we don't even sell online. So I don't know if that's a
we're just playing in a different league.
I don't know if it's the amount of money we're spending, but you
see these things. And I also think that one of the
really cool things that if you look at digital and all the
stuff we're talking about, used to be here to spend 100 grand to
(20:42):
do market research, right? You know how much market
research a $10,000 Google campaign will give you if you
give it the time to just learn keywords, headers, time of year.
You don't have to be a rocket science to know that the dual
industry is going to spend more around Christmas.
But to get an idea, and the biggest compliment to me, all
competitors are doing is trying to come in and buy my keywords.
The Salomon Brothers keyword is spiking and they're all fighting
(21:04):
for it. So I'm like, you know what, you
idiots, you fight for it. I'm not going to buy my own
keyword. They trust us.
We have all this other stuff. We have all these other
mechanisms. And to your point there, just to
interject is I do see a correlation to brand search on
Google and to, to, to, to AI search results too.
It does, you know, if the brand is recognized, like the search
volume you were saying earlier is pretty massive.
(21:24):
It correlates pretty closely. And so, so I think it's, I think
it's important to your point earlier, it's like, you know,
focus on your branding. How, what do people know about
your brand? I mean, that's one of the
specific LMTXT files we create is a brand specific.
So on the AI crawls website, we want them to know exactly who
you are and exactly who you're trying to get in front of and
what problem you solve. And so, so I think that they
correlate together, you know, whether it's your branding,
(21:46):
whether it's your SEO, whether it's Geo, so, so even.
The ads, man, even the ads, if they've heard of you before,
they're more likely to click on you out of the three.
I mean, it's again, this is not rocket science.
This is not human nature. You always go towards
familiarity. Even if you don't know what
Salomon Brothers does. You just heard Salomon Brothers.
You're like, how many moving companies are there like Braves
movers, Falcon movers? They're not.
(22:06):
They have nothing affility. They just you can't lock off
that. So, so you know, I think really
my question for you now is that I understand one of the
differences between, well, branding as a whole, but Geo
SEO, all these different things is the investment You pay
gradually grows and builds as opposed to something like Google
(22:27):
ads. When you shut it off, it falls
off a Cliff. And I try to explain to people
like, look, if you're looking atGoogle Ads as an advertising
source, you're a fool. Google Ads is the Yellow Pages,
is the capture saw is the net. You have to set out all the
lures, Google, they're just clever enough that they're
making you pay to use the net, right?
Like it's it's, it's the biggestcon ever.
And but we'll talk another time.And I know I'm going to be shut
(22:49):
down. It's not going to go viral for
saying this, but I will tell youright now that I promise you met
and Google, at some point we'll go back in history.
It will be complicit and some ofthe greatest fraud this country
has ever seen. The way they perpetrate
fraudulent information and allowit to go and the search, it's
just insane. But that being said, all that
being said, if I'm such a why amI still using it?
The answer is is because becauseof the brand I have, the return
(23:11):
on investment I get is so it's insane not to use it.
So but what talk a little bit about how the Geo investment
grows and amplifies. It's not just something that you
pay and like it stops. If you stop, you probably won't.
And now look, this pace is the timeline speed up a little bit,
but you probably won't start seeing detriment for six months,
(23:31):
year 2, five years depending on how much you have established.
So talk a little bit about that,how if you're selling somebody
who's like, hey, look, I have $1500, I'm going to either use
you or I'm going to go pay for ads.
First off, if you have 1500 jobs, you think it's going to
help you with ads, you're out ofyour freaking mind.
But talk a little bit about, unless you're in like a town of
300 people, talk a little bit about how Geo, SEO, even some
(23:52):
brand marketing pays longer termdividends and how important it
is to have those in a line before you start doing some real
performance marketing. No, for sure.
Yeah. And that's a good point.
I always correlate that back to the early SEO days.
It's like, it's like SEO, you know, the brands that adopted
SEO and Google search early on did very well.
You know, there's a lot of brands that was slower to
(24:13):
adoption. You know, there was like, you
know, now it's like you have to have it right.
You're either using a consultantyou have in house, you have an
agency. Now we all know that SEO is, is
one of the highest ROI's in any marketing stack.
And so with Geo, what Geo is, Geo is actually moving a lot
faster than what we would have said with Google search.
Google search was no one knew about that.
Like I'm not using that, I'm going to the yellow page.
And I would, I would venture to say that's because Google search
(24:33):
had one entity and now AI has people competing for the space
And I've that it comes either they buy each other out, but
you're not going to see a pace of six of these competitors.
That's not just not how this country works.
So I think that the pace will slow eventually.
First of all, just seeing how bad they bat, they botched GPT 5
makes me think the pace is goingto slow because that that that
was not a good. That is not a good system.
I mean, it, it breaks, it freezes, it hangs, it does worse
(24:56):
for me than GPT 4 was. So that was a corporate, the
corporate board of director saying, get this out now.
I don't care. But sorry, keep going.
No, no, you're good. Yeah.
And that's a good point too, is it is relying on it as we rely
more on to this, whether it's our daily search, whether it's
how do I cook a piece of steak, you know, whatever we rely on,
we're relying on at the point where if they have a bad release
(25:17):
or it's pulling bad data or whatever, you know, that's
something just to just to be reminded of.
But, but in terms of the business, you know, brands right
now that are adopting it, you know, I personally think are
going to be, you know, are goingto be in a much better spot.
Even in the earlier brands that did that did Google back in the
day, you know, everyone knew Google back in the day.
I think right now it's, it's a must for any brand.
(25:37):
You have to get behind it. Even if you're not seeing the
growth immediately. It's just like anything.
Everyone knows when you start SEO, you have no traffic.
You're not going to get sales your next day.
It takes time to deliver best practices.
You're competing against brands that have been around for a long
time, right? Like why?
But, but let me ask you this question because I think this is
really important. Isn't that also a competitive
advantage to an extent? Because one of the things I
understand is, is that SEO and its first wasn't about locality.
(26:00):
Geo is about local and relevant.So you can, as a little guy that
is playing in this game, competewith some of the bigger guys.
That wasn't the case when SEO started because locality, they
had to take time to figure out people don't want national
companies or they don't want to be about things that are 200
miles away from them. It took time for the Internet to
figure that out. So as much as that's true, isn't
that, isn't that an advantage for a local company that can
(26:22):
start playing these game? Isn't an advantage for a small
company to be an early adopter of this?
Isn't there something about thatthat's just almost like a great
equalizer one? 100%, yeah.
I they said every business that's in business should be
whether you're down from a plumber, whether you're a large
brand. Because to your point is, it's
in my opinion, it's easier to see the best practices.
It's easier to see exactly why these results were chosen for
(26:46):
the prompts. And the prime example of that is
we work with a lot of cannabis brands.
A lot of they've got a combination of e-commerce mixed
with their door to door, whetherit's delivery or it's an in
person establishment. And we're seeing brands come in,
you know, we're setting up best practices and they're able to
take advantage massively of their AI search.
Their SEO is lagging a little bit behind, but you've got
brands that do great and SEO that have no idea because
(27:07):
they're not programming right. And so we've seen a lot of local
brands specifically. And I would argue,
unfortunately, that's because the cannabis space has become
commoditized, right? Everyone's selling the same
stuff. So it's just a race to the
bottom of price. They're very few established
brands. They're also new that it's it's
really it just becomes a price sensitivity if everyone's
selling the same stuff, especially because this they're
(27:29):
all buying the same garbage. A lot of them when it's not even
legalized, they're buying the same garbage hem stuff.
So I mean, that's another problem, right?
Like you cannot. Though it goes to, it goes to if
you know, say 50 brands in the city are competing and 49 of
them have been around for a longtime and they're all selling the
trash. But then one comes in and gets
set up with properly and now they're the one that is selling
(27:49):
the product a lot more or you know, even within six months,
brands that have been doing it for years, they're able to beat
them out on air. That's a good.
That's a good point. What you're saying is, is that
the mechanisms amplify the word of mouth, which has always been
the strongest form of advertising.
I think that's a really good wayto put it, Geo.
That's why you go to something like Reddit.
Reddit is word of mouth. It's people sharing information
as much as reviews are. I don't think people trust that
(28:11):
Google is doing anything out of the goodness of their heart
anymore because they're such a monstrosity of a company.
That's a really good point. I think I'm going to use that.
It's a it is better attuned to amplify word of mouth mouth
advertising. All right, so I want to leave it
with this because I think you'vebeen super helpful.
Talk about the biggest players in the space.
So your perplexities, your claw,talk about some of those and
talk about on the back end what you're seeing and kind of the
(28:32):
difference. So very quickly I see like I use
Copilot, which is off GPT, but because it works with Microsoft.
So Microsoft is going to do their damnedest to make sure
anybody in a business space leans as much into Microsoft as
possible, right? It already starting to read
LinkedIn. It's doing all these tools that
really, if it wanted to, it could block Box from crawling
LinkedIn. It's not gonna, but it could.
(28:53):
Google tends to be like Google does, trying to get out ahead of
this. And they're very focused on
video and general video generation and stuff like that
where they know their investments can pay the
advantage. You know, open AI was a leader.
Perplexity seems to be more advanced thought and research.
Talk about what you've seen fromthe back end about how these
tools differ. No, absolutely.
Yeah. And I think that's a good point
because you see a lot of software out there that's like,
(29:15):
hey, we market everything from perplexity to Claude to Chachi
BT, you know, grok, whatever you're trying to use.
But at the end of the day, similar to search engines, the
majority of people are using oneand it's Chachi BT right now.
There's a, there's a, there's a lot of people that are using
perplexity copilot. I use Claude often for any kind
of data that I'm using. But in terms of, you know, first
market early to market, Chachi BT was kind of like the brand
(29:37):
that came out. And so when people think of,
hey, I'm going to, I want to look up something, it's Chachi,
BT and even some of the brands that we have sites that are
getting 2 million visits a month, You know, 98% of all that
traffic is coming from ChatGPT, which is, which is astonishing.
And So what we do and when we goabout our strategies, we start
with ChatGPT. That's the first thing that we
do. We, you know what, you know,
spend a lot of time diving in, alot of AB testing to kind of
(29:57):
figure out what we need to do. But that's, that's the platform
that we primarily focus on as welook at it as, hey, people go to
Google for search. We know people are going to
ChatGPT for search. And we correlate that to the
data that we have available to us.
And so when it comes to perplexity, you know, Claude,
anything like that, we truly think of it as as as kind of
like how Google is, right? If you're dominating, you're
(30:17):
doing well on Google with your SEO.
If you're doing well and gettingsurfaced on ChatGPT, generally
you're going to be ranking across your other LMS.
Granted, that's not the case. We track everything in in detail
across quite a few of them, but we spend most of our time trying
to understand to get in front ofthe ChatGPT just because we see
that having the highest ROI for the clients.
Yeah. So that's what I brought up
earlier where you think there's going to be, I think there's
going to be consolidation, right?
(30:38):
You these guys with the evaluations to some of these
companies. If ChatGPT is doing 90% of the
traffic and they're at a trillion dollar valuation,
right, then, yeah, there's $100 billion out there.
Don't get me wrong, there's, youknow, there's $100 million,
there's a billion, there's lots of money, but there's not enough
money to be going at the pace ofexpansion that we're going at
right now. So, you know, I also imagine
(30:59):
like Microsoft has that huge investment in open AI.
There's going to be other peoplethat come in like, you know,
you're Larry Ellison's like you see this, this just happening
everywhere, right? All of a sudden you merge Tick
Tock with the right AI company. And I think perplexity was the
one that was going to buy Chrome.
Like if you start seeing all these things and like, I love
that was another great example of how dumb we are as a country.
So Chrome, if Google has Chrome,they're a monopoly, but you're
(31:21):
going to sell Chrome for $300 billion.
Well, who do you think is going to be able to afford Chrome?
Somebody else who has a monopoly.
So we are in the new Gilded Age.These are too big to fail.
Like we're never going to be able to go backwards.
And I encourage people, do not put your head in the sand.
Start with the easiest things. But for me, the big aha moment
(31:42):
was recently, believe it or not,it was 5 or 6 months ago where I
read a book and it's like, look,you're looking at this all
wrong. This is not AI is not questions.
AI ask you the questions, give it the parameters and have it
ask you the questions to give you the best answer.
You are the thought leader. You are the leader.
This is just a tool. I see everybody talking to it
like it's the boss. And that is 1 when the machines
(32:02):
are going to rise up, but two also don't be scared, man.
Do you know how many times I have I got I have and add a 2016
gigabyte graphics card. I have a with the computer has
as good as it comes. The whole computer freezes on me
because I'm running prompts so hard and it doesn't know what to
do. It just stops.
So it's not there yet. The machines are not taking
(32:23):
over. It's gotten immensely better.
It is crazy to see how much better it is at doing graphics
and context, but we're not near there.
Dip your toe in the sand. Start with simple tasks learn
from it program. But you could see I could see
why advertising industry is terrified.
I have a place, the job of 10 people with one bot who just
learns more and more and more and more and more.
(32:44):
And it's starting to preemptively say do this.
And then now you see it's learning like adding to memory
so you can program it to do these things.
So I just my advice is, especially if you're going to
use Geo, the only way to really do it is to learn the tools,
right. If you're doing SEO and you
don't understand how Google Tag Manager works, you got a big
problem. And I think it's one of the
advantages that I've taken. I design our web, I'm doing the
(33:06):
scripts, I'm doing the tech and yes, it's exhausting and I'm
killing myself mentally, but think about it, who's going to
screw me over right now? It's very hard.
And you know when you had the way, you know when you've
succeeded is when you ask a question and people just hang up
the phone or stop answering you because like, uh oh, let's go
find another dummy. Like, and I say it, I'm like,
look, there's a lot of dummies out there.
I'm not one of them. Either fix this or hang up the
and like, you just got to be smart and dangerous.
(33:30):
Why don't you leave it with somefinal thoughts and then give us,
give it, give everyone a way to find you in case this stuff is
appealing and it's something they want to do.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think a final is just,
it's the thing that you said earlier about, you know, when
everyone has ChatGPT, it's learning about you as the user,
it learns about you. It understands your prior, your
prompts, your language style, everything along those lines.
And so you have to understand the importance for a brand to
(33:50):
make sure that they, they're investing in something.
So that way when someone does, they are looking for
recommendations and your brand is being listed, you know, it is
important to get in there early because you know, next time
they're asking questions or nexttime they're having similar
prompts like that, you know, it's going to surface things
that are important to them within those prompts.
So I implore every brand, make sure that you're at least
looking into this. Play around with it.
(34:10):
Ask ChatGPT or any other LLM, what do you know about my brand?
And just start with that alone because of because the earlier
you can get in there, the more prompts, the more the more
accounts you can lock in there. Just the easier it's going to be
as things just start scaling andthings turn into instant
purchasing, instant booking and all that stuff.
Yeah, yeah, money's always goingto be involved before you say
you're where to find you. As we talk about every single
(34:32):
thing that we've spoken about, talk a little bit about like you
can't. We're unfortunately, this
country requires instant gratification for everything.
Just for a quick second, explainthe time and how this works and
how there are guardrails in place for it to not work
quickly. Talk a little bit about just,
you can't imagine this to expectthis to work overnight.
This is a six month year, 18 month process.
(34:53):
You'll always see gradual, but you're never going to see that
exponential clip. If you do go and Google ads
again, you'll see it, but it'll drop off as fast as it comes on.
So just so you match expectations, talk a little bit
about time frame and the work required to do this.
And how come it's not just something that can be
immediately done? Absolutely.
Yeah. And that's a good point.
You mentioning bad actors, it's like in the SEO world, right?
There's a lot of great Seos and there's a lot and there's a lot
of Seos that unfortunately do bad practices that can affect
(35:15):
entire brands. And so I think right now with
Geo being the new hot topic and ranking in ChatGPT core brands,
be cautious, right? You know, just like SEO, there's
people who are just trying to quick make a quick buck saying,
Hey, we're going to do these 10 things that might look good to
you and it's going to help you, but it could, it could, it could
actually harm you. And so I think it's important to
to really understand, you know, when you're meeting with
somebody to ask those right questions, because just like an
(35:37):
SEO people, right, or just saying, Hey, I took a course, I
know how to do this. I don't go down that route.
Work with the professionals asking the questions, make them
show results, especially with something is new with as new as
this and give you an idea of what that looks like.
You know, our first month when we do our analysis, we do an
entire AEO. So we analyze the pages on a
website to understand exactly how the AI see them.
(35:59):
And we're not just talking aboutChatGPT.
We start with ChatGPT, we go down to perplexity, go down to
clock. We understand exactly how they
see them and then how they correlate that together.
And so just starting with that, you know, and then understand,
OK, this is what this is what weneed to have on this page.
And so then we need to understand it by category.
And so then we're creating custom code as you know, where
it needs to be deployed site wide.
So these are the best practices for for necklaces, for instance.
(36:22):
So now we need to make sure that's deployed across every
single necklace page. But it doesn't just stop with
that. Something that we do is we
actually monitor every single page against competitors.
So that we say, hey, this is a top competitor that right now is
surfacing an answer. This is where we're at.
What are we missing? And so and so you can imagine,
you know, just doing that and AIis a tool.
But to be to be great as a marketer, you have to use the
tool. Don't let the tool become you,
(36:43):
right? People just use AI.
Write A blog, they write me thiscode, it's a tool with it.
But don't make that just be 900%of what you're doing.
And so yeah, the. Internet, those these systems
don't like laziness. They could smell laziness a mile
away, right? You cannot.
I think the I'm going to say this from the other side as the
brand guy. Like that doesn't mean you have
somebody sign up to be your Geo guy and don't ask any questions
(37:06):
for six months. You need to ask, hey,
specifically what did you do? So one, you're keeping them
honest 2 that you're learning along the way, right?
Because unfortunately I've also seen the other side where you
know, you have a guy who says I'm going to do this and then
they show you in the first monththat they built an agent to
write you these articles. It's like, OK, so cool.
And so how about if you're goingto do that, I'll buy the agent
(37:26):
from you and I'll just do it that way and do it myself.
Why would I pay you to use AI tojust write an agent like and,
and then that's the other part of this.
So, you know, look, it is the Wild West.
I think that everybody, you know, at least get a
consultation. Matt does a really good job.
I've enjoyed working with him. We, we skip a lot of the BS and
kind of just get down to the nitty gritty, which is required
nowadays. Tell everybody how to find you
(37:47):
and and tell them some about some of the companies that you
specialize working with and where you see there's the most
opportunity. Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah. So, so again, named Matthew
Caddy the the mad Caddy. You can just mad caddy.com or
find me on LinkedIn. Easy to find.
Matthew Caddy. You know, we're always about
since it is so new and it is theWild West.
You know, I do, I do take my time meeting with meeting with
everybody, helping them fully understand it.
(38:08):
Someone like Nick, he's good at what he does.
He's he's basically like we spend 15 minutes.
He's like, I got to move on. But I but someone needs me to,
you know, hold their hand. Absolutely, especially with
something so new, the spaces that I see a lot in is
definitely the e-commerce e-commerce is is just if you're
an E com right now and you don'thave a strategy like this right
now, like I'll, I will literallydo a free audit and show you
what that looks like just because you have to see because
(38:29):
it is it is so important. It'll shock you once you put a
strategy in place, how much revenue you have.
We've got you know, we've got some brands that are hitting 30X
ROIA month right now because they're making all their
purchases through the site. So, so it's things like that
just coming purely from chat, CBT, it's things like that where
it does become a new channel that you may have not within six
months, nine months, you're now generating enough to, to make
(38:50):
some big decisions at your business.
So definitely something to keep in mind.
But on the flip side of it, be cautious of spam emails and
everything you're getting about someone, these gurus popping up
out of nowhere like we've been there.
Don't risk it. You know, make sure you're
asking a lot of good questions and, and do your own research.
You got you got LLMS. Now ask them if they say
something, pop it in there and say let's start doing your own
research on that. Yeah, yeah.
(39:12):
I agree with that. All right, man.
Well, look, it's been great. And I think that we're probably
going to get some comments and questions.
So I think we might have to do afollow up soon just with a
little bit more Q&A because I think it is the Wild West.
I appreciate it, brother. Mad Caddy, the Mad Caddy you've
been listening to the marketing man, and we'll catch you next
time. Thanks Dick, good chat.
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