May 19, 2025 • 54 mins
In this episode, host Moira Vetter speaks with Sandy Jap, the Sarah Beth Brown Endowed Professor of Marketing at Emory University’s Goizueta Business School. Sandy shares insights from her book Partnering with the Frenemy, which examines the boundaries of trust in both personal and professional relationships. They talk about the evolution of direct selling and how social media and influencer marketing has changed our relationships with brands.
patreon.com/TheMarketingMadMen: https://www.nick-constantino.com/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Big news pepperoni fans, Marco'sPizza is celebrating America's
favorite topping the best way weknow how.
It's Marco's Pepperoni Fest withthree pepperoni stuff.
Show stoppers, sink your teeth into our new pepperoni bread for
just 5 bucks, Grab a cheesy Pepperoni Pizzoli handheld or go
big with our iconic Pepperoni Magnifico pizza.
Get all these bold pepperoni flavors.
That price is worth cheering foronly during Marco's Pepperoni
(00:22):
Fest. Use code Pepfest California
residents Use code Pepest California California prices
higher Limited time Limited timeOnly price of participation
Mayberry Pizza restrictions may apply.
See participating source for details.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity, and we're
walking it. It's the marketing madhouse.
Hello, I'm Moira Better and it is time for another episode of
(00:45):
marketing Madhouse, and this oneis a little unique.
We often have people from corporations, clients, all
different kinds of businesses and we've touched on a lot of
different marketing topics. But today we're going back to
school. We've got a scholar in in with
us today. So Sandy Chap, who is the Sarah
(01:06):
Beth Brown Endowed Professor of Marketing at Maria University,
goes at a Business School. So welcome to the podcast.
Hello, I'm delighted to be here.That's a lot of words.
That's Sarah Beth Brown, endowedprofessor, you know, academics.
Like we're never. Oh, yeah, yeah.
(01:26):
No, it's well, and it's by the pound here.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and
how you got into marketing? And then of course, I'm going to
want to know who's Sarah Beth Brown is, but.
Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So my arrival into marketing is
completely serendipitous. I went to school at the
University of Florida. I was determined to major in
(01:48):
finance and get a job on Wall Street, wear the pinstripe suit
and the tennis shoes. I was going to do it and make
tons of money. And then I took my first finance
class and I thought my eyes weregoing to glaze over with with
calculating this, you know, net present value of everything.
(02:09):
So. Then I discovered marketing.
And it was, it was just so fun. And I never looked back at that
point. So I've just, I've made a career
out of it. It's a great place to hang my
hat. It's been awesome.
You know, it's funny when, when we were doing our preparation
for being on here, we were talking about that intersection
(02:31):
of finance and marketing. And it's one of the things that
I always loved because I was a finance person before I did
sales and marketing and, and have always brought that
financial acumen side. And some of the people we've
interviewed recently started outin either economics or finance.
And I, I think it is a very, it's, if you're going to be
(02:52):
effective in marketing, you haveto understand economics.
Yeah, it's scary how the things you try to run away from catch
up with you at some point in life, right?
So for sure, I mean, now I'm in marketing, but a lot of my work
is very, very quantitative. Some of my colleagues are
experts at reading financial statements, inferring the
(03:15):
customer lifetime value of customers just by looking at
aggregate numbers. It's unbelievable what they can
do these days. And it's all good.
And I think it's a good thing for marketers to be more our
numbers savvy, right? It maybe helps us earn a little
more respect at the table. Well, and I do think that's key
and it's really important because it's crazy times for
(03:37):
marketers and C-Suite executivesin particular.
I want to talk for a second before we get because you have a
lot of very specific subject matter.
You have been a professor for a very long time on this topic of
marketing. But let's just before we go down
the professor and, you know, higher Ed marketing path, let's
(04:00):
just talk education for a minutebecause you know, I think
there's a lot of there's a lot of my peers that are in their
second act and they're looking at what do I do now?
And, you know, there's a lot of discussion about why people go
into business or why people would go into teaching.
And then, you know, now I think there's a lot of people that
have had really storied careers.And So what do you see in terms
(04:21):
of who makes a good professor, who should consider it, and who
should run the other way? OK, so there are different types
of professors, all right? So there is like I'm the kind of
professor who my main focus is research.
I do a lot of speaking on the side, writing books, writing
papers. But first of all, first and
foremost, the university wants me to publish these.
(04:45):
Peer reviewed producer, you produce thought leadership.
Content that is read honestly byvery few people in peer reviewed
marketing journals. But there's also another kind
professor in the Academy. And these are professors who
have made amazing careers, who have so much life experience.
(05:07):
I mean, someone like me, you know, I'm a, I'm a academic
lifer. I really haven't had, I never
really had a real job other thanbeing a professor.
And there are many people who honestly, like you are moving
and shaking the world. And those people are fabulous to
have in the classroom. We have a number of them, you
(05:29):
know, people who are seasoned who as you say, are looking for
a second act or the second act before the third act or or
whatever it. Is to pay back, you know, pay it
forward by helping bring generations along.
That's a motive for a lot of people and.
Absolutely. And you should see the way we
hit up our alums. They, they will come back to my
class. I've had panels of alums coming
(05:51):
back and speaking and telling mystudents, you know, that all the
stuff I'm telling them about in the classroom really does happen
in real life. So it's it's, it's great for
learning. So, so I guess the, in order to
be a thought leader, you do a lot of research, right?
And so, and I think Atlanta is avery rich territory for that.
(06:13):
I'm sure you have deep relationships with a lot of the
corporation's. Like what is your pool that you
go to, you know, for, for doing your research and writing the
paper? Like where?
Where are these experts? Yeah.
Well, so first on the subject ofthought leadership, I would say
that these days, I mean, research isn't, isn't a
necessary condition anymore, right.
(06:34):
Just if you have an interesting perspective, you know, I mean,
I'm so. Glad to hear you say that
because anything I've ever written or said is like, no, I
just, I kind of think that I think this from seeing X&Y.
Yeah, yeah. And I know, and I know you have,
you have great perspectives and very creative perspectives on
these things. So I don't think it's it's
research that necessarily makes a great thought leader.
(06:56):
I will tell you for myself, the way my thoughts come about is
really just by looking at the marketplace, talking to business
people I love talking to executives like yourself who are
telling me here are the challenges I'm facing, here are
the things that are keeping me up at night.
Those are all great fodder for research.
(07:18):
Perfect. OK, so we're not getting out of
here without telling me about this endowment, the Sarah Beth
Brown. What?
What is the Sarah Beth Brown Endowment?
Well, first of all, Sarah Beth Brown is a real person.
She's an amazing person. She lives here locally in
Atlanta. Her father was John Brown and he
was the CEO of Stryker Medical Equipment for gosh, he took that
(07:44):
over, I don't know how many years ago, but basically in his
22 years there, he grew sales like year over year by 20
something percent. Wow.
And so he's, he and his wife, they're just amazing, an amazing
family. And as a result, you know, you,
you mentioned earlier giving back.
(08:05):
He has given back to Emory, which is where Sarah Beth is an
alum. He's they, he and his wife
graduated from Auburn. They have another daughter who
went to Auburn, I think. Yeah, I think they have like,
endowed, I think they've built buildings.
And at both schools, there are endowed chairs.
And these chairs are really amazing because what they do is
(08:27):
they kind of free me up from theobligation of being in the
classroom to be able to produce more research.
And that's, you know, for an academic especially, you know, a
gearhead like me. It's a great gift.
Yes. And I'm, I'm so grateful to
them. And, and they're an amazing
family. That's it.
That is so exciting to hear about.
So I want to talk a little bit and I know that later we're
(08:51):
going to get down into the weedsof it and, and honestly, we, we
could talk for hours and hours because every between the money
side of the psychology side and just all of the, the subjects
that we covered. So, you know, we we could, we're
going to go down all kinds of tangents, I know, but
specifically this idea of economics and technology.
(09:13):
You know, you were talking aboutthis kind of 5050 split between
financial and relationships driving thing.
Can you just talk about economics and psychology and how
those play together in what you do?
Yeah. So this is sort of the heart of
my research and my teaching is this notion that, and, and I
think every business person willtell you this.
(09:34):
I teach executive MBAs, evening MBA students, people who are
working currently working in dayjobs.
I, I really don't know how they do it, but the idea here, if you
ask anybody in business, they will tell you that business is
50% financial, but it's also 50%relational.
(09:55):
Who you know how you get along, having an EQ, all these things
are so important. Ironically, in the MBA program,
we focus almost 100% on the financial picture, the numbers,
the quantitative and, and true. That takes skill, right?
To learn and to understand how to run a net present value
(10:17):
calculation or a customer lifetime value calculation.
But honestly, what, what we don't do and what I try to do in
my coursework is to talk about, well, what's the strategy for
managing relationships? You know, you really, it turns
out there's a lot of research and a lot of science behind how
to do that well, how to really make them win, win pie,
(10:41):
expanding so that both parties benefit, how to collaborate and
even how and when to stop and tostep back and to say goodbye.
You know, it's when you talk about, it's interesting to think
about education focusing on the one area and as a researcher,
(11:01):
you know, you're deriving. I'm going to say I'm going to
try to figure out the way to getthis out of my head, which led
to the other. Is it the management of the
relationship that led to the economics falling out that way
or was it the economic approach or the the targeting strategy in
the 1st place? That because I just think about
(11:23):
all these large enterprise corporations that we work with
that you know, have a key account strategy.
And so we've got these customer lifetime values.
Well, how much of the fact that that is a key account and has
this customer lifetime value is because you model it and manage
it differently if you have a totally different approach to
that relationship than you do somewhere else?
(11:45):
Yeah, so that was again, serendipitous.
I mean, you can tell already I'mnot a person who, who plans too
much, but so it turns out the, the few years that I actually
was not an academic and I worked, I was representing, I
was a sales Rep for a rattan manufacturing company and I'd go
(12:09):
to high point, I would go to these furniture shows and I
would try to sell our product line to distributors and buyers.
And what I realized is some of these companies were like great
to work with. We just, we understood each
other. You know, they're very
collaborative. And others were just, you know,
a pain in the Fanny. Sort of thing.
(12:31):
So when I ended up getting my PhD, which I again felt kind of
fell into, you know, I had to write a dissertation.
And it turns out my advisor was actually an expert on sales
management and B to B relationships.
And so I took his course and he's like, OK, what's your
(12:53):
research topic? And I'm like, well, I really
don't like this sales stuff if you're doing, but I kind of like
this organizational collaboration stuff.
And, you know, and, and the nicething is, I guess what I really
like is that we're sort of mixing human behavior with
organizational behavior. Yeah.
And there's a lot of overlap, but there's a lot of
(13:13):
differences, right? And where the two come together,
to me has always been just a really fascinating problem.
It is and you know, years ago I worked LED an agency that was
owned in part by a management consulting firm.
And I remember, you know, you would always get the people that
were experts in the field that would be account management and
(13:35):
would work with the clients, butthey didn't want to quote sell,
right. I don't want to have to sell and
I've, I don't believe I sell right.
I, I engage with people, I try to understand what the dynamics
are that are changing around them.
What is hard for them to do, what is easier, where is a point
of value or commonality and you know that.
(13:55):
So it's, it's interesting when you talk about that, you know,
in terms of B2B relationship building and exploration versus
selling, you know. Yeah, and I think, you know,
like, I think for you it probably is so natural.
It's like breathing, right? You'd be surprised how many
business people would not think of doing that or starting out
(14:18):
that way. And so that's what I have to
teach them, right, Is that it turns out you can.
You can discover new opportunities and things you
never even thought of. Yeah.
You just open your mind a little.
Yeah. And, you know, and maybe be a
little helpful to the person you're talking to.
Look for where we can create value.
And yeah, it's just amazing where you could go.
(14:40):
Yeah. Well, and the other thing I
would say for for newer people in any kind of account
management role, I think initially you think that you
separate the relationship part from the business part.
So it's how are the kids did, what did you go to the movies
this weekend? How about that weather?
How about those Braves? And they don't think about
(15:01):
what's going on, what's working right?
What's keeping you up at night? What you can also have a
relationship discussion that is not about surface things, you
know, that isn't about your products.
And I think that's, you know, I think people need more
permission to explore the edges.Yeah, yeah.
(15:22):
And to and to not feel like you have to segregate those so much,
you know, because the value is interpersonally, once you have
earned a person's trust and confidence, they know you're
reliable, they can trust you with their secrets, their
weaknesses, Then you know, that's a really just a great
(15:43):
place to say, OK, well, let's think about can my firm do
something different for you? Could we maybe just tweak it a
little and create more value foryou, you know, and and that's.
That's how you keep. Them right, that's the that's
the key to all of it. Yeah.
Well, when we come back on Marketing Madhouse with Sandy,
we're going to talk a little bitabout her books, right, These
(16:05):
products, books, this, all this thinking that you put out.
So there's a book frenemies and we're going to talk about
channel marketing. So we will be back in a minute
on Marketing Madhouse. Don't worry, we're all a little
(16:27):
mad. You're locked into the marketing
madhouse. And we are back with Sandy Chap.
So we don't always have authors on.
And I love it. And there were lots of titles
when I was poking around and, you know, you talked about the
core book or the key book. You know, I think I've written a
(16:48):
book. I have a whole bunch that I've
started, only the one that I gotover the finish line.
But I think talking about what it was that inspired everybody
always wants to know why did youwrite that?
And I think part of what you do is to produce, but can you talk
specifically about partnering with the front of me?
Let's start there. Yeah, so when I was a doctoral
(17:11):
student and gosh, this'll date me, it's like the mid the mid
90s or so, it was very popular to talk about close
collaboration and partnering relationships.
Everybody was into partnerships,close relationships.
We all need more trust in Kumbaya.
And so I, I've always been one to push back a little.
(17:33):
Maybe it's because I am sort of a Gen.
Xer, but I was always like. Well, that can't be.
Good all the time. And so my I launched kind of
really just a whole career of research about how and like
about where the limits of trust are, right?
So sure, trust is good, but it can also be a cover for
(17:54):
cheating. Right.
And, you know, everything isn't a big blatant lie, but there are
kind of white lies and there's kind of sins of omission versus
sins of Commission. And there's all this little
stuff operating below the surface, stealing somebody,
stealing the credit on a prod ona project, you know, not, you
(18:18):
know, admitting who did what. I mean, along with things like
fudging your expenses and da, da, da, da, da, right?
So that kind of behavior really intrigued me.
And the idea that, you know, like, is it a good thing to let
the little things go or should we nip it in the bud early?
(18:38):
Short answer is in my research shows you should nip it in the
butt in the bud early. But anyway, so I I just
published a lot of papers about how to manage these kinds of
organizational relationships. And my mentor had once told me,
you know, your work is it's really quite practical, has a
lot of implications for managers.
(19:00):
And as a junior faculty member, all you want to do is write
these technical papers and get them in these peer reviewed
journals where maybe only a handful of people read it.
So after, well, after decades, I, I thought, you know, maybe I
could just kind of talk about what are the implications from
(19:20):
all of this research? Not just mine, but there's a ton
of work in sociology and economics and social psychology
that really and, and, and organizational behavior that
really just comes to bear on managing relationships and
organizations. And so the, the partnering with
the frenemy book is really kind of a, a compendium of, you know,
(19:46):
how and when close relationships, partnerships,
like why do they frenemize? And the short answer is that
often times, you know, the partners, they become so
successful that they become insecure about their dependence
on each other. And then little things start to
happen. You start to kind of hedge your
bets, maybe bring in a little competition and that kind of.
(20:09):
Makes your partner nervous and then you know, and the
relationship just dissolves. So the book is really about
those dynamics, what a science have to say about it and and
also what's the research that says what you should do to
mitigate those things and decrease those risks.
So I have a question for you as it relates to.
(20:32):
So a lot of these themes that you're talking about are
Evergreen, right? Because they're anchored in
human nature and economic cyclesare cyclical and or whatever
they pass, they come and go, they ebb and flow.
When you think about the thinking in in this book,
(20:53):
specifically in these behaviors,how has it changed in the last
few? Because I just want to bring
this up. My book also is one of these
that I hope that if you read this book 30 years from now, it
is still as relevant because I have tried to tie it to these
time timeless kinds of, you know, foundational human element
kind of things. But I do think the world's
(21:16):
different and especially around things like trust, right?
Trust and loyalty and duration, right?
I mean, you know, just even thinking about marriage, right,
20 years ago, more people stayedmarried.
Same thing with, you know, in terms of tenure on careers.
So if you think about like recent experience that you've
had, how is any of this, is it different?
(21:39):
Is anything changing? Was there anything that you
would say? You know, by and large, these
are the the stages like you brought up, you bring in these
little things to sort of throw off a codependency.
But how is it different in the last two or three years?
Because the world changed dramatically in the last five
years. It's true.
That's true. There's, I mean, of course at
(22:00):
the university we're all about AI.
Everything's AI, you know, well,long time ago everything was
about digital, everything was about the Internet.
So now today it's AI. So.
But I do agree these topics are a bit Evergreen and it would
surprise you. You know, you say that people 20
(22:21):
years ago people stayed married longer.
Actually, for the past few decades the divorce rate for the
first marriages has remained at 50% for like 20-30 years.
How about that? What's what's interesting
though, OK. Second marriage.
Yes. So what do you think happens at
(22:42):
the second marriage do? People learn they jump faster.
So what's the implication for the divorce rate?
Does it increase or decrease? Don't make me do math.
It's too early, so the. Up or down?
Up because they're jumping faster, they're cycling through.
Yeah, yeah. So the divorce rate for your
(23:02):
second marriage is 67%, which ismore than random chance, right?
The first marriage is random chance.
The second one is systematicallymore likely to fail.
And your third marriage, if you go that far, right, the divorce
rate is 73%. Yeah, right.
So. And then you're Elizabeth
Taylor. So clearly, experience doesn't
(23:25):
make you smarter, it makes you older.
Right, right, right. But to to your question it.
Proves that you still can't choose.
Wisely that you haven't fixed. Them, yes.
There, but there is a lot that is changing now and it does
impact relationships. Some of the things that my
students and I are looking at iswe're, you know, for a long time
(23:48):
we've really tried to understandhow does technology, you know,
having a computer in between youand your customer, how does that
change things? I have a student now and we're
kind of interested in, well, what happens if your your
customer has an agent and you'rein acting with that agent or
your customer's interacting withyour agent, which isn't a real
(24:10):
human, right? Or what if they both have agents
each the customer and the sellerhas an agent and they're
interacting. How's that gonna change the
relationship between you and I? Or your Commission.
Yeah, yeah. And or with AI, is that
Commission actually earned by you?
Right, right. I think that's the the.
Question earned it. Yeah, Yeah, that's the question.
(24:32):
Companies are kind of saying nowis like, OK, well, maybe we
don't really need people. We have AI at least for a lot of
things. So yeah.
So I think that is kind of the the brave new future.
Hey, it's fascinating. I don't have any answers right
now, but I'll probably spend thenext 10 years thinking about it.
That's good. And and I know there will be a
(24:53):
book. OK, I'm just going to poke fun
for a minute. So a couple of these titles of
these books. So achieving strategic
advantages in long term buyer supplier relationships, a
longitudinal investigation that was 1 and conflict management
and commitment effects on relationship quality and
conventional distribution channels.
(25:14):
And, and I mean, this is like love language to me because I do
think, you know, if you know where the rub is, right, that's
where value gets created in. And I think we do have a lot of
clients, particularly in the Atlanta, you know, technology
sphere, where friction is the one of the most common things
talked about, right, in terms ofuser experience and you know,
(25:36):
friction points for customers. So and, and especially through
the distribution channel. Well, as we move on through
here, there's there this where we're going to get into a lot of
this business model kinds of things.
But you also wrote a book and, and these are on Amazon, but
the, the field guide to channel marketing.
(25:56):
And I picture a guy fly fishing when I, when I hear the field
guide. But talk about that, what was
because I, I hear you on the, you know, sort of compendium,
right? You do all of this research that
is studied and you have to, you know, validate and you've got
sources and you do this peer review And then, you know, you,
(26:17):
I'm sure you have this thing that's like, well, people just
need to know AB and C right? Is that some of the genesis of
of some of these books that are a little more accessible maybe
to everybody else? Yeah, absolutely.
Well, is it? So they're both accessible right
there. They are meant for, you know,
the smart manager sort of thing.And the field guided channel
(26:39):
strategy is a book that I use inmy class.
So I have been teaching marketing channel strategy for
like 30 something years at the MBA level.
And the field guide is sort of like, you know, a nature field
guide or bird field guide. It's for the person who is
trying to understand what they're looking at, you know, in
the wild. So that's, that's kind of what
(27:01):
this is. And it is, it kind of sets
forth, and this is kind of what I'm teaching my class, kind of a
framework for thinking about in this case, routes to market
either distribution through warehouses, through
distributors, partnering with agencies like yourself, selling
(27:22):
on Amazon, selling through salesforces, direct sellers, indirect
sellers and. Bars, all the things, all the
acronyms, OEM, this is and that's I do think that is it can
be a a limiter or a barrier to so many people.
(27:42):
It can feel so overwhelming, allof these terms and you get lost
in the terms and just in terms of our business, you know,
because so many of our early clients were very wonky B to B
complex businesses. You know, it's nothing to get on
a call and have people just acronyming to death and not
(28:04):
talking about products, but talking about means of
distribution methods, channels. And it's extremely overwhelming
for people that are coming up tospeed to even step in or to say,
Hey, what's a VAR? You know, it's a value added
reseller. Well, what, what is that right?
And does, does that person, is that person employed by our
(28:24):
company? Oh, no, those are outside
organizations. And you know, I mean, I, I have
found a lot of my time, I'm now obviously going to be buying the
field guide to channel marketing, but.
You know a lot of. Before you can even figure out
how to sell something or what itis, you know you have to
understand how people sell, right?
The the ecosystem in which salesoccur.
(28:45):
Right, right. It I mean sales is the
fundamental unit in marketing, right.
It's why we exist is to create sales.
And yes, I agree with you that the world of B to B is very off
putting. I mean, it's why we don't have
as many people as academics who are B to B marketers, right?
(29:06):
It's much easier when you're coming into a doctoral program.
Many of them are in their early 20s.
You know, they understand socialmedia, they understand
influencers and not. Surprisingly, that's what they
want to study. Yeah, So we got tons of people.
Yeah, right. Studying advertising.
Yeah, right. That's easy.
I'm sorry, it's not. It's not easy, but.
It's not easy. It's easy to understand because
(29:29):
you have experience in it. That's that's what I mean.
All my advertising colleagues would hate me now.
No, but you have relevant relational models.
Exactly. It's not entirely new.
You can. You can draw corollaries.
Yes, exactly. And so it is definitely, it's an
A marketing experience that's more accessible, whereas B to B
(29:52):
is kind of like you don't see it, you don't see it and you
don't think about it. Yeah.
I did a a Gartner vendor briefing and I did the whole
thing on how B to B is this, youknow, this ghost that is done
wrong by the world because academics don't talk about it,
(30:12):
the media doesn't talk about it.You know, culture, society don't
talk about it. However, you know, 2/3 of our
economy is B to B And so and I frequently now that I have
somebody in academia here, I frequently bemoan this to higher
education, which is it leaves itfor the employers to have to
(30:34):
educate new team members on thisbecause there you don't get
this. And and you know, the
Association of National Advertisers Ana years ago bought
the business marketing association.
You don't even have an association that necessarily has
business marketing on it to draw, you know, draw your
(30:56):
attention to the topic. So it's it is really, it's
tough. You're so right.
I mean, you know, you're a business owner.
I mean, how much time do you have to train employees, right
and to educate them? That's not your job, right?
So it, it is, you know, there aren't a lot of, a lot of
(31:17):
universities, MBA programs who teach distribution channels or
even just sales or sales skills.So it is stuff, something that
we need more of. But as you said, it's, it's
difficult for someone who doesn't, who doesn't have
experience in that area to easily just move in and start to
(31:40):
think like like that and get theacronyms and the mindset.
And so, yeah, we bemoaned the same thing.
Well, I mean, the good news is just ask the question, right?
I mean, that's the thing. It's just don't worry about it.
Nobody knows what half these things mean, right?
Just be willing to say, can I just get clarity on something?
(32:02):
Talk to me about when we were prepping, you were talking about
direct selling models, right? Because I think, you know, when
the pandemic happened, there area lot of direct sales
organizations that overnight couldn't be direct sales
organizations and just how people sell, right?
The in the acting like the Internet, right, the World Wide
Web, it changed how, you know, people had a new channel now.
(32:26):
So can you just talk about direct sales?
I know we had talked about Tupperware was one brand that
came up. What do you see there?
Yeah, the classic direct sell selling brands are Mary Kay,
Rodan and Fields, Cutco, some Amorites.
Right, lots of insurance. Yeah.
I think there are insurance companies as well.
(32:47):
So they're an interesting channel form they because
basically direct sellers are individuals who sell to end
customers like you and I and they're usually products that
are not sold in retail formats. And so they're often times
products that maybe require a little bit education or other
(33:09):
experiential things like cosmetics, which make them very
good for direct sales channels. This, this, Yeah, During COVID,
it really, kind of really went off the rails.
Everybody was selling through Facebook.
There was all these kind of closed groups where people were
(33:29):
selling products. A lot of experimentation, right?
Because it's a free for all now,right?
Try some something. Yeah, it was, it was really the
direct selling, direct selling companies.
Those brands actually did reallywell during COVID because
everybody was buying online and it also so forced their sales
(33:51):
forces to go online. And so initially the reason why
I got into this is because I just thought it was, it was very
interesting to observe them. So some of the things we notice
is like the primary, the first rule of, of selling on social
media is that you don't mention the brand and you really aren't
(34:12):
out selling, right? You're engaging and you are
drawing people in with your personality and your
authenticity. And we were talking earlier
about having a unique perspective.
And this is how you bring peoplein and you engage with them.
And you really. Don't talk about brands and
(34:32):
products. It's very off putting, right?
And I just thought that that whole strategy was fascinating
because clearly in sales, especially B2B sales, it's like,
okay, let me tell you about our newest part.
Let's start with awareness. Of course we have a.
Thing we got a thing and it doesthis right so so I just thought
that was fascinating and then itended up kind of evolving into
(34:55):
the work that I'm doing now on direct selling, which is really
you know if we think about direct sales people as like a
type of gig work right? And you know, against this
larger backdrop we have now where everybody wants flexible
work on their terms, we really don't understand a lot about,
(35:15):
well, how do these people make it work and why is it that it
works well for some and really badly for others, right.
If if you think of direct sales,Tupperware, Avon, it's a lot of
that's, that's a job. There's only a few people.
Driving around in those pink cars.
Yes, and there's a lot of stigmaaround it.
I mean, to be fair, there's a lot of investigation by the FTC
(35:38):
of these companies and over their their practices and their
claims. And it's not completely unfair,
but it doesn't mean that everybody's doing that right.
So as more and more people in our population are moving
towards gig work, are the latestresearch on direct sellers is
(35:58):
really just trying to understandhow does that gig work?
First of all, what do they do tomake it work?
And there are, you know, so we kind of identify several
strategies for how they manage their resources, primarily their
time, how that shifts over time,how they try to minimize risks,
(36:22):
how they only do what's affordable in terms of potential
losses. And then how some of the best
ones will take those sales skills that they learn and then
they'll transfer it to other settings and they'll move beyond
direct sales. And you know.
What do you mean by transfer it to other settings?
So there's this great seller that we talked to.
(36:43):
She was by training a nurse and she had kids, so she was staying
at home. But of course, she wasn't brain
dead, so she wanted to, you know, So she started using what
she knew about health products and she started selling health
products right to her friends, family, and then she was selling
(37:04):
it through this these clothes. So a lot of them have these
closed Facebook groups and it's it's where you have to be a
member to get in and etcetera. So you get in and they started
talking in here, this group of customers, and then the health
issues came up, right. And then next thing you know,
(37:25):
that kind of snowballed into menopause and aging and horrible
hormones. And, and then from that she was
like, wow, she thought, you know, there's just such a need
here for women to understand these things, not just for my
juice supplements, right? And so then what she then did is
she said, what we really need iswe really need to get people in
(37:47):
here, experts who understand this topic.
And so then she formed another group and it became an S
corporation. And like in in a week it
suddenly had 13,000 members. And then you can support it with
advertising, right? And then you write all these.
Different things become and sales isn't front and center
right, right value creation through knowledge and discussion
(38:10):
and learning. That's front and center.
But yes, it gets supported by products that work right or
products and that's recommended.All these adjacencies, right,
are perfect, right? These affiliate things, it's
like these are the products, these are the services.
There's this thing, there's thisinformation product, Yeah.
Yes. And the best, the best direct
(38:33):
sales people, they understand that they can do that.
We've seen them take the skills they learned at selling, the
skills they learned at creating engagement on social media to
create broader platforms, platforms of thought leadership,
leadership development courses, things like that.
(38:55):
Now how is it different from influencer?
Am I an influencer? Am IA direct seller?
Am I both? I think it so I think of an
influencer as starting first with an audience and then
plugging products into that thatcommunity, right?
And I think of a seller as starting first with a product
(39:16):
and then creating an audience around that product.
Creating a movement, right? Often it's creating a.
Movement. The best will create a movement.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
And then you can just keep plugging.
Yeah. And then you just continue to
follow these pass. But but of course that's the
exception. It's not the rule for many
direct sellers. And this is really such a
(39:37):
gratifying insight is we found that for many of them, you know,
it, it just plays a role like their their main goal isn't
their job and income earning. It's my main goal is life, my
well-being, right. I need the flexibility to care
for my parents, to take time offto get an MBA and this job.
(40:00):
The selling fits into my life. And so I had this interesting
discussion, my co-author, where we said, you know, so person AB
and C like they're not making a lot of money, but.
So would we call them a successful direct seller?
And when we talk to them and they say, yeah, we sell because
it fits into my life and it advances my overall well-being,
(40:22):
then we're like, yeah, you know,that's success.
It's not. It is right, right.
It doesn't have a monetary, is not defined by a certain
monetary framework. Very, very interesting.
All right, we're going to come back with Sandy Jap and we're
going to get into the fun and zany side, the crazy stories and
(40:43):
the companies to follow and to model.
So we will be back in a minute on Marketing Madhouse.
A little bit of madness goes a long way.
Now more of the marketing madhouse.
And we are back with Sandy Japp from Emory ways out of Business
(41:07):
School. And so we've been talking a lot
about sales and direct sales andyour your books and research.
But we have not had time to talkabout one of the most fun
segments, which is something crazy that has happened to you
in your marketing career. And I don't think of scholarly
(41:30):
organizations as being particularly crazy.
It could have been in those two years that you were trying to
schlep rattan. But what is the craziest or one
of the craziest things that's happened to you in your
marketing career? You know, I've really tried to
block a lot of the craziness from memory, but I will tell you
that. So when I graduated from the
(41:53):
University of Florida, my first faculty job was at MIT at the
Sloan School. And I was like really excited
because, you know, I was going to this conference that was in
Sydney. And so I went from, and just
this background when I was a college student, basically the
(42:14):
only reason why I got an education, a college education
was because I lived with my grandparents who lived in
Gainesville. And you know, they housed me.
They fed me for basically 10 years of schooling.
And so I finished, I graduated and I'm so excited.
And one of my classmates from the PhD program, we were going
(42:36):
to attend our first professionalconference.
And so it was marketing sciencesbeing held in Sydney.
And so I took a flight from Gainesville to LA and then I'm
getting ready to get on Qantas or whatever, and I get up to the
(42:59):
gate and I'm trying ready to check in, and I realize that I
had forgotten. Well, I didn't forget to bring a
passport. I had a passport.
I promise. It was my grandmother's
passport. What?
Yes. And I was at the freaking gate
and I'd only a lot like allottedfor a few extra days of
(43:21):
sightseeing before the conference.
I was like, oh, drat. I didn't say drat.
I said worse words. And then there was, and I
realized, Oh, no. And I talked to the agent.
She's like, yeah, you know, you just thought you might be able
to pass and get to Australia on your grandma's passport.
You mean. You mean I'll get back?
(43:41):
I was like, oh, no. So I had to stay overnight in LA
and I had to, you know, have my mother overnight the correct
passport from Gainesville. And so would you believe so in
that that one night that I stayed behind my classmate, he
got on that flight, we were going to go there together.
(44:03):
It was like 25 hour flight from LA.
And those were the days where, like, if they had space
available in first class, they would just put you in there.
Yeah, right. You didn't have to have status.
Yeah. And so he went on without me,
and he was in. Freaking first class.
The whole. Way yes, I was like oh gosh and
(44:24):
now like I'm absolutely compulsive to make sure that I
have the right things because. You're not going to get left
behind. I, I flew to Sydney one time and
I, and this was back in the dayswhere you could smoke on the
flight and I was a chain smoker.So I smoked the entire time.
And I still feel so terrible forthose people that were one row
(44:46):
back but they weren't in the smoking section.
Oh wow, isn't that crazy? Wow, you remember flying in a
little? Yes, I do.
Metal cylinder. Yeah, I remember flying once to
the Middle East. That was after we had gotten rid
of of smoking on airplanes, but they had it.
And yeah. Of course they did.
(45:06):
Of course they did. Maybe it wasn't cigars.
Man. No, that, that's a that's a
crazy one. I thought you were going to say
you met someone at the airport that night or?
Ohh, that might have been better, yeah.
No, no, you know, it's I travel is a big theme that could the
crazy missed handoffs on travel.Yeah, seem to be coming up.
(45:30):
Maybe there will be a book in that.
We'll have to we'll have to and and serendipity, the serendipity
of bad business travel, Right. Well, the last section that we
always cover, and I think, you know, you've been really
interesting because so much of your career has been talking to
people and researching and looking out there in the world.
But I'm always interested by companies for whom brand and who
(45:53):
they are is defined far beyond their products and services,
right. So beyond the product brand, but
to the employer brand and the community brand.
And So what company do you thinkdoes a great job, I won't say
the best job, but a great job ofbeing completely rounded in all
of those areas? Yeah.
(46:14):
So I mean, I think for myself, well, so there are companies who
are great at one part or the other.
And I will tell you this isn't really a systematic survey of
anything. This is just my experience.
I think one of the companies that I like a lot these days is
actually Delta. And sure, like everyone else in
(46:37):
Atlanta, I'm a slave to my miles.
But on the other hand, right, they, in terms of the service
and the customer experience, they're always like actively
like I've known, you know, the people who have been developing
the app since very the the firstday since, you know, and, and I
have a lot of Delta employees inmy, in my class classrooms and
(47:01):
they go on to, and I keep up with them and, and you know,
from a, of course, from a customer service perspective, of
course. Well, they treat me well because
I have status with them. I have lots of miles.
But on the other hand, you know it.
It really is like the smallest things like.
Well, thank you for flying with us.
(47:23):
Like they'll come over to my seat and say, and I'm like
really like, and I know there's an agenda, but I really feel
like it just makes me feel so good.
Right. And I don't know.
Why little things like that or you know, thank you for your
business. Four weeks ago I flew and the
captain did a handwritten note card and came and brought it.
(47:43):
And because I'm a diamond and, but it was the same thing.
It was, you know, I was of course, I always remark on the
the customer service overall andthe communication and are you
comfortable and all the things that you know that are maybe you
would say foundational, more fundamental, but it is this
extra touches. They are really constantly
(48:04):
looking for these other things that will remark upon you.
You know that you matter to them.
Yeah. And it's those, it's those small
things, but it's also the case that I've heard from my students
that within the company, right? It's the service mindset is not
just towards customers, but it'salso to their employees.
(48:25):
So like so many employees, they just think Ed Bastian is just.
Great. Amazing.
I mean, how many? What are they going to think?
CEOs are great. Yeah, yeah.
Well, what are they going to do when he retires?
I don't know. I just can't imagine.
I mean, how do you get another Ed Bastian?
They love him. And then but I've also heard of
the things they've done, you know, for either to raise money
(48:50):
for charities or, you know, whenI hear these things, I'm just
like, wow, you know, it's not just about making the money.
And they are engaging their employees and they're trying to
engage with the community. They have these like I heard of
something about like trying to pull a plane or like, you know,
(49:12):
it's just. Like a tug of war.
Like literally pulling a plane. Like pulling a plane with ropes
or something. I don't know.
It's like some challenge and then, you know, and I just feel
like, like, wow, you know, it's hard to hit well on all those
dimensions, yeah. It, it is.
And, and, you know, I mean, that's the thing.
You never hit on all the dimensions all the time.
(49:34):
But the more that you keep trying across all the
dimensions, you know, you end upin a better place.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it has been fascinating talking to you.
Do you have any last minute advice for people?
Again, you've, you've studied somany different things, like just
practically speaking, is there one thing related to channel or
marketing or selling or any of it that you're like, I think
(49:57):
people need to look more closelyat this.
Well, I always tell my students,and I try to do this myself, is
just stay curious, stay open minded, right?
You know, when you're working with your customers, your
channel partners, you know, justask them about their business,
(50:21):
right? Try to understand their
perspective, what makes them tick.
If you want to find a way to create value for them, it's help
them make their business better.Stay curious.
There's just so much that we don't know, right?
So I think that that's just kindof an important mindset.
And you know, I feel like, I mean, I try to bring that to
everything I do, whether it's myinteractions with people, it's.
(50:46):
You know, I think curiosity, it's one of our core values as a
business, but I think there's, there's having a set of
questions you ask, which is different than feeling and being
innately curious, right? This, you know, following a
thread and you know, I think that's, that's something too.
It's, it's not about rehearsing questions.
That's not curiosity. Just knowing 6 things that I ask
(51:09):
every time, right? You know.
I mean, it might at least get the conversation.
Started. Yeah.
But yeah, you got to feel free enough to kind of go down a
rabbit hole, you know, if it looks interesting or at least,
you know, a thought exercise, right?
Absolutely. Well, and and I think the world
does keep changing, you know, and and certainly all of the,
(51:31):
you know, you brought up gig economy and with everything
that's digital, the only way to stay ahead of those things.
That's where innovation comes from.
It's where thought leadership comes from.
Is staying curious and going, huh, that's interesting
learning, yes. Learning, Oh my gosh, the things
my students tell me about TikTokand what's going on and you know
(51:54):
what AI can do. It's just mind blowing.
I I couldn't possibly know or keep up with that stuff.
It never ends. It never ends right.
Well, if anybody wants to reach you, how do they find you?
Oh well, I I'm easily found on Google when my kids are in
elementary school. They were like, wow mom, you
(52:15):
know you're famous. Like we can find you on Google
or you can try sandyjap.com. OK, perfect, sandyjap.com.
Well, thank you so much for coming in and sharing what you
know. Remember, there's a fine line
between genius and insanity, andwe're walking it.
I'm Moira Vetter. Join me next time on the
(52:36):
Marketing Madhouse. Big news pepperoni fans, Marco's
Pizza is celebrating America's favorite topping the best way we
know how. It's Marco's Pepperoni Fest with
three pepperoni stuffed show stoppers.
Sink your teeth into our new pepperoni bread for just 5
bucks. Grab a cheesy Pepperoni Pizzoli
handheld or go big with our iconic Pepperoni Magnifico
(52:58):
pizza. Get all these bold pepperoni
flavors. That price is worth cheering for
only during Marco's Pepperoni Fest.
Use code Pepfest California residents Use Code Pepfest CA
California prices higher Limitedtime only price participation
may bury fees and restrictions may apply.
See participating source for details.
Buying a car shouldn't be a mystery.
Hi, I'm Stacey Ellis, vice president of the Jim Ellis
Automotive Group. At Jim Ellis, we believe in
complete transparency because you deserve to know exactly what
(53:20):
you're getting. That's why we show you all the
numbers. No hidden fees, no surprises.
We explain every option clearly so you can make the right
decision with confidence. And if you ever have questions,
we have answers. Our team is here to guide you,
making sure you're informed and in control every step of the
way. At Jim Ellis Automotive, we
don't want to sell you just any car.
We want to help you buy the right car because doing the
right thing for you is what matters most to us.
(53:43):
Experience car buying the way itshould, be honest,
straightforward, and built around you.
And don't forget, Jim Ellis buyscars too.
It's a safe and easy way to get maximum value for your car.
To get started, visit one of our21 convenient locations across
metro Atlanta or shop online at jimellis.com.
The quick, easy and convenient way to search and compare more
than 5500 cars, trucks and SUV's.
(54:03):
Jim Ellis Automotive, where you can always expect the best.
Big news pepperoni fans, Marco'sPizza is celebrating America's
favorite topping the best way weknow how.
It's Marco's Pepperoni Fest withthree pepperoni stuff.
Show stoppers, sink your teeth into our new pepperoni bread for
just 5 bucks, Grab a cheesy Pepperoni Pizzoli handheld or go
big with our iconic Pepperoni Magnifico pizza.
Get all these bold pepperoni flavors.
That price is worth cheering foronly during Marco's Pepperoni
(00:22):
Fest. Use code Pepfest California
residents Use code Pepest California California prices
higher Limited time Limited timeOnly price of participation
Mayberry Pizza restrictions may apply.
See participating source for details.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity, and we're
walking it. It's the marketing madhouse.
Hello, I'm Moira Better and it is time for another episode of
(00:45):
marketing Madhouse, and this oneis a little unique.
We often have people from corporations, clients, all
different kinds of businesses and we've touched on a lot of
different marketing topics. But today we're going back to
school. We've got a scholar in in with
us today. So Sandy Chap, who is the Sarah
(01:06):
Beth Brown Endowed Professor of Marketing at Maria University,
goes at a Business School. So welcome to the podcast.
Hello, I'm delighted to be here.That's a lot of words.
That's Sarah Beth Brown, endowedprofessor, you know, academics.
Like we're never. Oh, yeah, yeah.
(01:26):
No, it's well, and it's by the pound here.
So why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and
how you got into marketing? And then of course, I'm going to
want to know who's Sarah Beth Brown is, but.
Yeah, sure, sure, sure. So my arrival into marketing is
completely serendipitous. I went to school at the
University of Florida. I was determined to major in
(01:48):
finance and get a job on Wall Street, wear the pinstripe suit
and the tennis shoes. I was going to do it and make
tons of money. And then I took my first finance
class and I thought my eyes weregoing to glaze over with with
calculating this, you know, net present value of everything.
(02:09):
So. Then I discovered marketing.
And it was, it was just so fun. And I never looked back at that
point. So I've just, I've made a career
out of it. It's a great place to hang my
hat. It's been awesome.
You know, it's funny when, when we were doing our preparation
for being on here, we were talking about that intersection
(02:31):
of finance and marketing. And it's one of the things that
I always loved because I was a finance person before I did
sales and marketing and, and have always brought that
financial acumen side. And some of the people we've
interviewed recently started outin either economics or finance.
And I, I think it is a very, it's, if you're going to be
(02:52):
effective in marketing, you haveto understand economics.
Yeah, it's scary how the things you try to run away from catch
up with you at some point in life, right?
So for sure, I mean, now I'm in marketing, but a lot of my work
is very, very quantitative. Some of my colleagues are
experts at reading financial statements, inferring the
(03:15):
customer lifetime value of customers just by looking at
aggregate numbers. It's unbelievable what they can
do these days. And it's all good.
And I think it's a good thing for marketers to be more our
numbers savvy, right? It maybe helps us earn a little
more respect at the table. Well, and I do think that's key
and it's really important because it's crazy times for
(03:37):
marketers and C-Suite executivesin particular.
I want to talk for a second before we get because you have a
lot of very specific subject matter.
You have been a professor for a very long time on this topic of
marketing. But let's just before we go down
the professor and, you know, higher Ed marketing path, let's
(04:00):
just talk education for a minutebecause you know, I think
there's a lot of there's a lot of my peers that are in their
second act and they're looking at what do I do now?
And, you know, there's a lot of discussion about why people go
into business or why people would go into teaching.
And then, you know, now I think there's a lot of people that
have had really storied careers.And So what do you see in terms
(04:21):
of who makes a good professor, who should consider it, and who
should run the other way? OK, so there are different types
of professors, all right? So there is like I'm the kind of
professor who my main focus is research.
I do a lot of speaking on the side, writing books, writing
papers. But first of all, first and
foremost, the university wants me to publish these.
(04:45):
Peer reviewed producer, you produce thought leadership.
Content that is read honestly byvery few people in peer reviewed
marketing journals. But there's also another kind
professor in the Academy. And these are professors who
have made amazing careers, who have so much life experience.
(05:07):
I mean, someone like me, you know, I'm a, I'm a academic
lifer. I really haven't had, I never
really had a real job other thanbeing a professor.
And there are many people who honestly, like you are moving
and shaking the world. And those people are fabulous to
have in the classroom. We have a number of them, you
(05:29):
know, people who are seasoned who as you say, are looking for
a second act or the second act before the third act or or
whatever it. Is to pay back, you know, pay it
forward by helping bring generations along.
That's a motive for a lot of people and.
Absolutely. And you should see the way we
hit up our alums. They, they will come back to my
class. I've had panels of alums coming
(05:51):
back and speaking and telling mystudents, you know, that all the
stuff I'm telling them about in the classroom really does happen
in real life. So it's it's, it's great for
learning. So, so I guess the, in order to
be a thought leader, you do a lot of research, right?
And so, and I think Atlanta is avery rich territory for that.
(06:13):
I'm sure you have deep relationships with a lot of the
corporation's. Like what is your pool that you
go to, you know, for, for doing your research and writing the
paper? Like where?
Where are these experts? Yeah.
Well, so first on the subject ofthought leadership, I would say
that these days, I mean, research isn't, isn't a
necessary condition anymore, right.
(06:34):
Just if you have an interesting perspective, you know, I mean,
I'm so. Glad to hear you say that
because anything I've ever written or said is like, no, I
just, I kind of think that I think this from seeing X&Y.
Yeah, yeah. And I know, and I know you have,
you have great perspectives and very creative perspectives on
these things. So I don't think it's it's
research that necessarily makes a great thought leader.
(06:56):
I will tell you for myself, the way my thoughts come about is
really just by looking at the marketplace, talking to business
people I love talking to executives like yourself who are
telling me here are the challenges I'm facing, here are
the things that are keeping me up at night.
Those are all great fodder for research.
(07:18):
Perfect. OK, so we're not getting out of
here without telling me about this endowment, the Sarah Beth
Brown. What?
What is the Sarah Beth Brown Endowment?
Well, first of all, Sarah Beth Brown is a real person.
She's an amazing person. She lives here locally in
Atlanta. Her father was John Brown and he
was the CEO of Stryker Medical Equipment for gosh, he took that
(07:44):
over, I don't know how many years ago, but basically in his
22 years there, he grew sales like year over year by 20
something percent. Wow.
And so he's, he and his wife, they're just amazing, an amazing
family. And as a result, you know, you,
you mentioned earlier giving back.
(08:05):
He has given back to Emory, which is where Sarah Beth is an
alum. He's they, he and his wife
graduated from Auburn. They have another daughter who
went to Auburn, I think. Yeah, I think they have like,
endowed, I think they've built buildings.
And at both schools, there are endowed chairs.
And these chairs are really amazing because what they do is
(08:27):
they kind of free me up from theobligation of being in the
classroom to be able to produce more research.
And that's, you know, for an academic especially, you know, a
gearhead like me. It's a great gift.
Yes. And I'm, I'm so grateful to
them. And, and they're an amazing
family. That's it.
That is so exciting to hear about.
So I want to talk a little bit and I know that later we're
(08:51):
going to get down into the weedsof it and, and honestly, we, we
could talk for hours and hours because every between the money
side of the psychology side and just all of the, the subjects
that we covered. So, you know, we we could, we're
going to go down all kinds of tangents, I know, but
specifically this idea of economics and technology.
(09:13):
You know, you were talking aboutthis kind of 5050 split between
financial and relationships driving thing.
Can you just talk about economics and psychology and how
those play together in what you do?
Yeah. So this is sort of the heart of
my research and my teaching is this notion that, and, and I
think every business person willtell you this.
(09:34):
I teach executive MBAs, evening MBA students, people who are
working currently working in dayjobs.
I, I really don't know how they do it, but the idea here, if you
ask anybody in business, they will tell you that business is
50% financial, but it's also 50%relational.
(09:55):
Who you know how you get along, having an EQ, all these things
are so important. Ironically, in the MBA program,
we focus almost 100% on the financial picture, the numbers,
the quantitative and, and true. That takes skill, right?
To learn and to understand how to run a net present value
(10:17):
calculation or a customer lifetime value calculation.
But honestly, what, what we don't do and what I try to do in
my coursework is to talk about, well, what's the strategy for
managing relationships? You know, you really, it turns
out there's a lot of research and a lot of science behind how
to do that well, how to really make them win, win pie,
(10:41):
expanding so that both parties benefit, how to collaborate and
even how and when to stop and tostep back and to say goodbye.
You know, it's when you talk about, it's interesting to think
about education focusing on the one area and as a researcher,
(11:01):
you know, you're deriving. I'm going to say I'm going to
try to figure out the way to getthis out of my head, which led
to the other. Is it the management of the
relationship that led to the economics falling out that way
or was it the economic approach or the the targeting strategy in
the 1st place? That because I just think about
(11:23):
all these large enterprise corporations that we work with
that you know, have a key account strategy.
And so we've got these customer lifetime values.
Well, how much of the fact that that is a key account and has
this customer lifetime value is because you model it and manage
it differently if you have a totally different approach to
that relationship than you do somewhere else?
(11:45):
Yeah, so that was again, serendipitous.
I mean, you can tell already I'mnot a person who, who plans too
much, but so it turns out the, the few years that I actually
was not an academic and I worked, I was representing, I
was a sales Rep for a rattan manufacturing company and I'd go
(12:09):
to high point, I would go to these furniture shows and I
would try to sell our product line to distributors and buyers.
And what I realized is some of these companies were like great
to work with. We just, we understood each
other. You know, they're very
collaborative. And others were just, you know,
a pain in the Fanny. Sort of thing.
(12:31):
So when I ended up getting my PhD, which I again felt kind of
fell into, you know, I had to write a dissertation.
And it turns out my advisor was actually an expert on sales
management and B to B relationships.
And so I took his course and he's like, OK, what's your
(12:53):
research topic? And I'm like, well, I really
don't like this sales stuff if you're doing, but I kind of like
this organizational collaboration stuff.
And, you know, and, and the nicething is, I guess what I really
like is that we're sort of mixing human behavior with
organizational behavior. Yeah.
And there's a lot of overlap, but there's a lot of
(13:13):
differences, right? And where the two come together,
to me has always been just a really fascinating problem.
It is and you know, years ago I worked LED an agency that was
owned in part by a management consulting firm.
And I remember, you know, you would always get the people that
were experts in the field that would be account management and
(13:35):
would work with the clients, butthey didn't want to quote sell,
right. I don't want to have to sell and
I've, I don't believe I sell right.
I, I engage with people, I try to understand what the dynamics
are that are changing around them.
What is hard for them to do, what is easier, where is a point
of value or commonality and you know that.
(13:55):
So it's, it's interesting when you talk about that, you know,
in terms of B2B relationship building and exploration versus
selling, you know. Yeah, and I think, you know,
like, I think for you it probably is so natural.
It's like breathing, right? You'd be surprised how many
business people would not think of doing that or starting out
(14:18):
that way. And so that's what I have to
teach them, right, Is that it turns out you can.
You can discover new opportunities and things you
never even thought of. Yeah.
You just open your mind a little.
Yeah. And, you know, and maybe be a
little helpful to the person you're talking to.
Look for where we can create value.
And yeah, it's just amazing where you could go.
(14:40):
Yeah. Well, and the other thing I
would say for for newer people in any kind of account
management role, I think initially you think that you
separate the relationship part from the business part.
So it's how are the kids did, what did you go to the movies
this weekend? How about that weather?
How about those Braves? And they don't think about
(15:01):
what's going on, what's working right?
What's keeping you up at night? What you can also have a
relationship discussion that is not about surface things, you
know, that isn't about your products.
And I think that's, you know, I think people need more
permission to explore the edges.Yeah, yeah.
(15:22):
And to and to not feel like you have to segregate those so much,
you know, because the value is interpersonally, once you have
earned a person's trust and confidence, they know you're
reliable, they can trust you with their secrets, their
weaknesses, Then you know, that's a really just a great
(15:43):
place to say, OK, well, let's think about can my firm do
something different for you? Could we maybe just tweak it a
little and create more value foryou, you know, and and that's.
That's how you keep. Them right, that's the that's
the key to all of it. Yeah.
Well, when we come back on Marketing Madhouse with Sandy,
we're going to talk a little bitabout her books, right, These
(16:05):
products, books, this, all this thinking that you put out.
So there's a book frenemies and we're going to talk about
channel marketing. So we will be back in a minute
on Marketing Madhouse. Don't worry, we're all a little
(16:27):
mad. You're locked into the marketing
madhouse. And we are back with Sandy Chap.
So we don't always have authors on.
And I love it. And there were lots of titles
when I was poking around and, you know, you talked about the
core book or the key book. You know, I think I've written a
(16:48):
book. I have a whole bunch that I've
started, only the one that I gotover the finish line.
But I think talking about what it was that inspired everybody
always wants to know why did youwrite that?
And I think part of what you do is to produce, but can you talk
specifically about partnering with the front of me?
Let's start there. Yeah, so when I was a doctoral
(17:11):
student and gosh, this'll date me, it's like the mid the mid
90s or so, it was very popular to talk about close
collaboration and partnering relationships.
Everybody was into partnerships,close relationships.
We all need more trust in Kumbaya.
And so I, I've always been one to push back a little.
(17:33):
Maybe it's because I am sort of a Gen.
Xer, but I was always like. Well, that can't be.
Good all the time. And so my I launched kind of
really just a whole career of research about how and like
about where the limits of trust are, right?
So sure, trust is good, but it can also be a cover for
(17:54):
cheating. Right.
And, you know, everything isn't a big blatant lie, but there are
kind of white lies and there's kind of sins of omission versus
sins of Commission. And there's all this little
stuff operating below the surface, stealing somebody,
stealing the credit on a prod ona project, you know, not, you
(18:18):
know, admitting who did what. I mean, along with things like
fudging your expenses and da, da, da, da, da, right?
So that kind of behavior really intrigued me.
And the idea that, you know, like, is it a good thing to let
the little things go or should we nip it in the bud early?
(18:38):
Short answer is in my research shows you should nip it in the
butt in the bud early. But anyway, so I I just
published a lot of papers about how to manage these kinds of
organizational relationships. And my mentor had once told me,
you know, your work is it's really quite practical, has a
lot of implications for managers.
(19:00):
And as a junior faculty member, all you want to do is write
these technical papers and get them in these peer reviewed
journals where maybe only a handful of people read it.
So after, well, after decades, I, I thought, you know, maybe I
could just kind of talk about what are the implications from
(19:20):
all of this research? Not just mine, but there's a ton
of work in sociology and economics and social psychology
that really and, and, and organizational behavior that
really just comes to bear on managing relationships and
organizations. And so the, the partnering with
the frenemy book is really kind of a, a compendium of, you know,
(19:46):
how and when close relationships, partnerships,
like why do they frenemize? And the short answer is that
often times, you know, the partners, they become so
successful that they become insecure about their dependence
on each other. And then little things start to
happen. You start to kind of hedge your
bets, maybe bring in a little competition and that kind of.
(20:09):
Makes your partner nervous and then you know, and the
relationship just dissolves. So the book is really about
those dynamics, what a science have to say about it and and
also what's the research that says what you should do to
mitigate those things and decrease those risks.
So I have a question for you as it relates to.
(20:32):
So a lot of these themes that you're talking about are
Evergreen, right? Because they're anchored in
human nature and economic cyclesare cyclical and or whatever
they pass, they come and go, they ebb and flow.
When you think about the thinking in in this book,
(20:53):
specifically in these behaviors,how has it changed in the last
few? Because I just want to bring
this up. My book also is one of these
that I hope that if you read this book 30 years from now, it
is still as relevant because I have tried to tie it to these
time timeless kinds of, you know, foundational human element
kind of things. But I do think the world's
(21:16):
different and especially around things like trust, right?
Trust and loyalty and duration, right?
I mean, you know, just even thinking about marriage, right,
20 years ago, more people stayedmarried.
Same thing with, you know, in terms of tenure on careers.
So if you think about like recent experience that you've
had, how is any of this, is it different?
(21:39):
Is anything changing? Was there anything that you
would say? You know, by and large, these
are the the stages like you brought up, you bring in these
little things to sort of throw off a codependency.
But how is it different in the last two or three years?
Because the world changed dramatically in the last five
years. It's true.
That's true. There's, I mean, of course at
(22:00):
the university we're all about AI.
Everything's AI, you know, well,long time ago everything was
about digital, everything was about the Internet.
So now today it's AI. So.
But I do agree these topics are a bit Evergreen and it would
surprise you. You know, you say that people 20
(22:21):
years ago people stayed married longer.
Actually, for the past few decades the divorce rate for the
first marriages has remained at 50% for like 20-30 years.
How about that? What's what's interesting
though, OK. Second marriage.
Yes. So what do you think happens at
(22:42):
the second marriage do? People learn they jump faster.
So what's the implication for the divorce rate?
Does it increase or decrease? Don't make me do math.
It's too early, so the. Up or down?
Up because they're jumping faster, they're cycling through.
Yeah, yeah. So the divorce rate for your
(23:02):
second marriage is 67%, which ismore than random chance, right?
The first marriage is random chance.
The second one is systematicallymore likely to fail.
And your third marriage, if you go that far, right, the divorce
rate is 73%. Yeah, right.
So. And then you're Elizabeth
Taylor. So clearly, experience doesn't
(23:25):
make you smarter, it makes you older.
Right, right, right. But to to your question it.
Proves that you still can't choose.
Wisely that you haven't fixed. Them, yes.
There, but there is a lot that is changing now and it does
impact relationships. Some of the things that my
students and I are looking at iswe're, you know, for a long time
(23:48):
we've really tried to understandhow does technology, you know,
having a computer in between youand your customer, how does that
change things? I have a student now and we're
kind of interested in, well, what happens if your your
customer has an agent and you'rein acting with that agent or
your customer's interacting withyour agent, which isn't a real
(24:10):
human, right? Or what if they both have agents
each the customer and the sellerhas an agent and they're
interacting. How's that gonna change the
relationship between you and I? Or your Commission.
Yeah, yeah. And or with AI, is that
Commission actually earned by you?
Right, right. I think that's the the.
Question earned it. Yeah, Yeah, that's the question.
(24:32):
Companies are kind of saying nowis like, OK, well, maybe we
don't really need people. We have AI at least for a lot of
things. So yeah.
So I think that is kind of the the brave new future.
Hey, it's fascinating. I don't have any answers right
now, but I'll probably spend thenext 10 years thinking about it.
That's good. And and I know there will be a
(24:53):
book. OK, I'm just going to poke fun
for a minute. So a couple of these titles of
these books. So achieving strategic
advantages in long term buyer supplier relationships, a
longitudinal investigation that was 1 and conflict management
and commitment effects on relationship quality and
conventional distribution channels.
(25:14):
And, and I mean, this is like love language to me because I do
think, you know, if you know where the rub is, right, that's
where value gets created in. And I think we do have a lot of
clients, particularly in the Atlanta, you know, technology
sphere, where friction is the one of the most common things
talked about, right, in terms ofuser experience and you know,
(25:36):
friction points for customers. So and, and especially through
the distribution channel. Well, as we move on through
here, there's there this where we're going to get into a lot of
this business model kinds of things.
But you also wrote a book and, and these are on Amazon, but
the, the field guide to channel marketing.
(25:56):
And I picture a guy fly fishing when I, when I hear the field
guide. But talk about that, what was
because I, I hear you on the, you know, sort of compendium,
right? You do all of this research that
is studied and you have to, you know, validate and you've got
sources and you do this peer review And then, you know, you,
(26:17):
I'm sure you have this thing that's like, well, people just
need to know AB and C right? Is that some of the genesis of
of some of these books that are a little more accessible maybe
to everybody else? Yeah, absolutely.
Well, is it? So they're both accessible right
there. They are meant for, you know,
the smart manager sort of thing.And the field guided channel
(26:39):
strategy is a book that I use inmy class.
So I have been teaching marketing channel strategy for
like 30 something years at the MBA level.
And the field guide is sort of like, you know, a nature field
guide or bird field guide. It's for the person who is
trying to understand what they're looking at, you know, in
the wild. So that's, that's kind of what
(27:01):
this is. And it is, it kind of sets
forth, and this is kind of what I'm teaching my class, kind of a
framework for thinking about in this case, routes to market
either distribution through warehouses, through
distributors, partnering with agencies like yourself, selling
(27:22):
on Amazon, selling through salesforces, direct sellers, indirect
sellers and. Bars, all the things, all the
acronyms, OEM, this is and that's I do think that is it can
be a a limiter or a barrier to so many people.
(27:42):
It can feel so overwhelming, allof these terms and you get lost
in the terms and just in terms of our business, you know,
because so many of our early clients were very wonky B to B
complex businesses. You know, it's nothing to get on
a call and have people just acronyming to death and not
(28:04):
talking about products, but talking about means of
distribution methods, channels. And it's extremely overwhelming
for people that are coming up tospeed to even step in or to say,
Hey, what's a VAR? You know, it's a value added
reseller. Well, what, what is that right?
And does, does that person, is that person employed by our
(28:24):
company? Oh, no, those are outside
organizations. And you know, I mean, I, I have
found a lot of my time, I'm now obviously going to be buying the
field guide to channel marketing, but.
You know a lot of. Before you can even figure out
how to sell something or what itis, you know you have to
understand how people sell, right?
The the ecosystem in which salesoccur.
(28:45):
Right, right. It I mean sales is the
fundamental unit in marketing, right.
It's why we exist is to create sales.
And yes, I agree with you that the world of B to B is very off
putting. I mean, it's why we don't have
as many people as academics who are B to B marketers, right?
(29:06):
It's much easier when you're coming into a doctoral program.
Many of them are in their early 20s.
You know, they understand socialmedia, they understand
influencers and not. Surprisingly, that's what they
want to study. Yeah, So we got tons of people.
Yeah, right. Studying advertising.
Yeah, right. That's easy.
I'm sorry, it's not. It's not easy, but.
It's not easy. It's easy to understand because
(29:29):
you have experience in it. That's that's what I mean.
All my advertising colleagues would hate me now.
No, but you have relevant relational models.
Exactly. It's not entirely new.
You can. You can draw corollaries.
Yes, exactly. And so it is definitely, it's an
A marketing experience that's more accessible, whereas B to B
(29:52):
is kind of like you don't see it, you don't see it and you
don't think about it. Yeah.
I did a a Gartner vendor briefing and I did the whole
thing on how B to B is this, youknow, this ghost that is done
wrong by the world because academics don't talk about it,
(30:12):
the media doesn't talk about it.You know, culture, society don't
talk about it. However, you know, 2/3 of our
economy is B to B And so and I frequently now that I have
somebody in academia here, I frequently bemoan this to higher
education, which is it leaves itfor the employers to have to
(30:34):
educate new team members on thisbecause there you don't get
this. And and you know, the
Association of National Advertisers Ana years ago bought
the business marketing association.
You don't even have an association that necessarily has
business marketing on it to draw, you know, draw your
(30:56):
attention to the topic. So it's it is really, it's
tough. You're so right.
I mean, you know, you're a business owner.
I mean, how much time do you have to train employees, right
and to educate them? That's not your job, right?
So it, it is, you know, there aren't a lot of, a lot of
(31:17):
universities, MBA programs who teach distribution channels or
even just sales or sales skills.So it is stuff, something that
we need more of. But as you said, it's, it's
difficult for someone who doesn't, who doesn't have
experience in that area to easily just move in and start to
(31:40):
think like like that and get theacronyms and the mindset.
And so, yeah, we bemoaned the same thing.
Well, I mean, the good news is just ask the question, right?
I mean, that's the thing. It's just don't worry about it.
Nobody knows what half these things mean, right?
Just be willing to say, can I just get clarity on something?
(32:02):
Talk to me about when we were prepping, you were talking about
direct selling models, right? Because I think, you know, when
the pandemic happened, there area lot of direct sales
organizations that overnight couldn't be direct sales
organizations and just how people sell, right?
The in the acting like the Internet, right, the World Wide
Web, it changed how, you know, people had a new channel now.
(32:26):
So can you just talk about direct sales?
I know we had talked about Tupperware was one brand that
came up. What do you see there?
Yeah, the classic direct sell selling brands are Mary Kay,
Rodan and Fields, Cutco, some Amorites.
Right, lots of insurance. Yeah.
I think there are insurance companies as well.
(32:47):
So they're an interesting channel form they because
basically direct sellers are individuals who sell to end
customers like you and I and they're usually products that
are not sold in retail formats. And so they're often times
products that maybe require a little bit education or other
(33:09):
experiential things like cosmetics, which make them very
good for direct sales channels. This, this, Yeah, During COVID,
it really, kind of really went off the rails.
Everybody was selling through Facebook.
There was all these kind of closed groups where people were
(33:29):
selling products. A lot of experimentation, right?
Because it's a free for all now,right?
Try some something. Yeah, it was, it was really the
direct selling, direct selling companies.
Those brands actually did reallywell during COVID because
everybody was buying online and it also so forced their sales
(33:51):
forces to go online. And so initially the reason why
I got into this is because I just thought it was, it was very
interesting to observe them. So some of the things we notice
is like the primary, the first rule of, of selling on social
media is that you don't mention the brand and you really aren't
(34:12):
out selling, right? You're engaging and you are
drawing people in with your personality and your
authenticity. And we were talking earlier
about having a unique perspective.
And this is how you bring peoplein and you engage with them.
And you really. Don't talk about brands and
(34:32):
products. It's very off putting, right?
And I just thought that that whole strategy was fascinating
because clearly in sales, especially B2B sales, it's like,
okay, let me tell you about our newest part.
Let's start with awareness. Of course we have a.
Thing we got a thing and it doesthis right so so I just thought
that was fascinating and then itended up kind of evolving into
(34:55):
the work that I'm doing now on direct selling, which is really
you know if we think about direct sales people as like a
type of gig work right? And you know, against this
larger backdrop we have now where everybody wants flexible
work on their terms, we really don't understand a lot about,
(35:15):
well, how do these people make it work and why is it that it
works well for some and really badly for others, right.
If if you think of direct sales,Tupperware, Avon, it's a lot of
that's, that's a job. There's only a few people.
Driving around in those pink cars.
Yes, and there's a lot of stigmaaround it.
I mean, to be fair, there's a lot of investigation by the FTC
(35:38):
of these companies and over their their practices and their
claims. And it's not completely unfair,
but it doesn't mean that everybody's doing that right.
So as more and more people in our population are moving
towards gig work, are the latestresearch on direct sellers is
(35:58):
really just trying to understandhow does that gig work?
First of all, what do they do tomake it work?
And there are, you know, so we kind of identify several
strategies for how they manage their resources, primarily their
time, how that shifts over time,how they try to minimize risks,
(36:22):
how they only do what's affordable in terms of potential
losses. And then how some of the best
ones will take those sales skills that they learn and then
they'll transfer it to other settings and they'll move beyond
direct sales. And you know.
What do you mean by transfer it to other settings?
So there's this great seller that we talked to.
(36:43):
She was by training a nurse and she had kids, so she was staying
at home. But of course, she wasn't brain
dead, so she wanted to, you know, So she started using what
she knew about health products and she started selling health
products right to her friends, family, and then she was selling
(37:04):
it through this these clothes. So a lot of them have these
closed Facebook groups and it's it's where you have to be a
member to get in and etcetera. So you get in and they started
talking in here, this group of customers, and then the health
issues came up, right. And then next thing you know,
(37:25):
that kind of snowballed into menopause and aging and horrible
hormones. And, and then from that she was
like, wow, she thought, you know, there's just such a need
here for women to understand these things, not just for my
juice supplements, right? And so then what she then did is
she said, what we really need iswe really need to get people in
(37:47):
here, experts who understand this topic.
And so then she formed another group and it became an S
corporation. And like in in a week it
suddenly had 13,000 members. And then you can support it with
advertising, right? And then you write all these.
Different things become and sales isn't front and center
right, right value creation through knowledge and discussion
(38:10):
and learning. That's front and center.
But yes, it gets supported by products that work right or
products and that's recommended.All these adjacencies, right,
are perfect, right? These affiliate things, it's
like these are the products, these are the services.
There's this thing, there's thisinformation product, Yeah.
Yes. And the best, the best direct
(38:33):
sales people, they understand that they can do that.
We've seen them take the skills they learned at selling, the
skills they learned at creating engagement on social media to
create broader platforms, platforms of thought leadership,
leadership development courses, things like that.
(38:55):
Now how is it different from influencer?
Am I an influencer? Am IA direct seller?
Am I both? I think it so I think of an
influencer as starting first with an audience and then
plugging products into that thatcommunity, right?
And I think of a seller as starting first with a product
(39:16):
and then creating an audience around that product.
Creating a movement, right? Often it's creating a.
Movement. The best will create a movement.
Yeah, right. Yeah.
And then you can just keep plugging.
Yeah. And then you just continue to
follow these pass. But but of course that's the
exception. It's not the rule for many
direct sellers. And this is really such a
(39:37):
gratifying insight is we found that for many of them, you know,
it, it just plays a role like their their main goal isn't
their job and income earning. It's my main goal is life, my
well-being, right. I need the flexibility to care
for my parents, to take time offto get an MBA and this job.
(40:00):
The selling fits into my life. And so I had this interesting
discussion, my co-author, where we said, you know, so person AB
and C like they're not making a lot of money, but.
So would we call them a successful direct seller?
And when we talk to them and they say, yeah, we sell because
it fits into my life and it advances my overall well-being,
(40:22):
then we're like, yeah, you know,that's success.
It's not. It is right, right.
It doesn't have a monetary, is not defined by a certain
monetary framework. Very, very interesting.
All right, we're going to come back with Sandy Jap and we're
going to get into the fun and zany side, the crazy stories and
(40:43):
the companies to follow and to model.
So we will be back in a minute on Marketing Madhouse.
A little bit of madness goes a long way.
Now more of the marketing madhouse.
And we are back with Sandy Japp from Emory ways out of Business
(41:07):
School. And so we've been talking a lot
about sales and direct sales andyour your books and research.
But we have not had time to talkabout one of the most fun
segments, which is something crazy that has happened to you
in your marketing career. And I don't think of scholarly
(41:30):
organizations as being particularly crazy.
It could have been in those two years that you were trying to
schlep rattan. But what is the craziest or one
of the craziest things that's happened to you in your
marketing career? You know, I've really tried to
block a lot of the craziness from memory, but I will tell you
that. So when I graduated from the
(41:53):
University of Florida, my first faculty job was at MIT at the
Sloan School. And I was like really excited
because, you know, I was going to this conference that was in
Sydney. And so I went from, and just
this background when I was a college student, basically the
(42:14):
only reason why I got an education, a college education
was because I lived with my grandparents who lived in
Gainesville. And you know, they housed me.
They fed me for basically 10 years of schooling.
And so I finished, I graduated and I'm so excited.
And one of my classmates from the PhD program, we were going
(42:36):
to attend our first professionalconference.
And so it was marketing sciencesbeing held in Sydney.
And so I took a flight from Gainesville to LA and then I'm
getting ready to get on Qantas or whatever, and I get up to the
(42:59):
gate and I'm trying ready to check in, and I realize that I
had forgotten. Well, I didn't forget to bring a
passport. I had a passport.
I promise. It was my grandmother's
passport. What?
Yes. And I was at the freaking gate
and I'd only a lot like allottedfor a few extra days of
(43:21):
sightseeing before the conference.
I was like, oh, drat. I didn't say drat.
I said worse words. And then there was, and I
realized, Oh, no. And I talked to the agent.
She's like, yeah, you know, you just thought you might be able
to pass and get to Australia on your grandma's passport.
You mean. You mean I'll get back?
(43:41):
I was like, oh, no. So I had to stay overnight in LA
and I had to, you know, have my mother overnight the correct
passport from Gainesville. And so would you believe so in
that that one night that I stayed behind my classmate, he
got on that flight, we were going to go there together.
(44:03):
It was like 25 hour flight from LA.
And those were the days where, like, if they had space
available in first class, they would just put you in there.
Yeah, right. You didn't have to have status.
Yeah. And so he went on without me,
and he was in. Freaking first class.
The whole. Way yes, I was like oh gosh and
(44:24):
now like I'm absolutely compulsive to make sure that I
have the right things because. You're not going to get left
behind. I, I flew to Sydney one time and
I, and this was back in the dayswhere you could smoke on the
flight and I was a chain smoker.So I smoked the entire time.
And I still feel so terrible forthose people that were one row
(44:46):
back but they weren't in the smoking section.
Oh wow, isn't that crazy? Wow, you remember flying in a
little? Yes, I do.
Metal cylinder. Yeah, I remember flying once to
the Middle East. That was after we had gotten rid
of of smoking on airplanes, but they had it.
And yeah. Of course they did.
(45:06):
Of course they did. Maybe it wasn't cigars.
Man. No, that, that's a that's a
crazy one. I thought you were going to say
you met someone at the airport that night or?
Ohh, that might have been better, yeah.
No, no, you know, it's I travel is a big theme that could the
crazy missed handoffs on travel.Yeah, seem to be coming up.
(45:30):
Maybe there will be a book in that.
We'll have to we'll have to and and serendipity, the serendipity
of bad business travel, Right. Well, the last section that we
always cover, and I think, you know, you've been really
interesting because so much of your career has been talking to
people and researching and looking out there in the world.
But I'm always interested by companies for whom brand and who
(45:53):
they are is defined far beyond their products and services,
right. So beyond the product brand, but
to the employer brand and the community brand.
And So what company do you thinkdoes a great job, I won't say
the best job, but a great job ofbeing completely rounded in all
of those areas? Yeah.
(46:14):
So I mean, I think for myself, well, so there are companies who
are great at one part or the other.
And I will tell you this isn't really a systematic survey of
anything. This is just my experience.
I think one of the companies that I like a lot these days is
actually Delta. And sure, like everyone else in
(46:37):
Atlanta, I'm a slave to my miles.
But on the other hand, right, they, in terms of the service
and the customer experience, they're always like actively
like I've known, you know, the people who have been developing
the app since very the the firstday since, you know, and, and I
have a lot of Delta employees inmy, in my class classrooms and
(47:01):
they go on to, and I keep up with them and, and you know,
from a, of course, from a customer service perspective, of
course. Well, they treat me well because
I have status with them. I have lots of miles.
But on the other hand, you know it.
It really is like the smallest things like.
Well, thank you for flying with us.
(47:23):
Like they'll come over to my seat and say, and I'm like
really like, and I know there's an agenda, but I really feel
like it just makes me feel so good.
Right. And I don't know.
Why little things like that or you know, thank you for your
business. Four weeks ago I flew and the
captain did a handwritten note card and came and brought it.
(47:43):
And because I'm a diamond and, but it was the same thing.
It was, you know, I was of course, I always remark on the
the customer service overall andthe communication and are you
comfortable and all the things that you know that are maybe you
would say foundational, more fundamental, but it is this
extra touches. They are really constantly
(48:04):
looking for these other things that will remark upon you.
You know that you matter to them.
Yeah. And it's those, it's those small
things, but it's also the case that I've heard from my students
that within the company, right? It's the service mindset is not
just towards customers, but it'salso to their employees.
(48:25):
So like so many employees, they just think Ed Bastian is just.
Great. Amazing.
I mean, how many? What are they going to think?
CEOs are great. Yeah, yeah.
Well, what are they going to do when he retires?
I don't know. I just can't imagine.
I mean, how do you get another Ed Bastian?
They love him. And then but I've also heard of
the things they've done, you know, for either to raise money
(48:50):
for charities or, you know, whenI hear these things, I'm just
like, wow, you know, it's not just about making the money.
And they are engaging their employees and they're trying to
engage with the community. They have these like I heard of
something about like trying to pull a plane or like, you know,
(49:12):
it's just. Like a tug of war.
Like literally pulling a plane. Like pulling a plane with ropes
or something. I don't know.
It's like some challenge and then, you know, and I just feel
like, like, wow, you know, it's hard to hit well on all those
dimensions, yeah. It, it is.
And, and, you know, I mean, that's the thing.
You never hit on all the dimensions all the time.
(49:34):
But the more that you keep trying across all the
dimensions, you know, you end upin a better place.
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, it has been fascinating talking to you.
Do you have any last minute advice for people?
Again, you've, you've studied somany different things, like just
practically speaking, is there one thing related to channel or
marketing or selling or any of it that you're like, I think
(49:57):
people need to look more closelyat this.
Well, I always tell my students,and I try to do this myself, is
just stay curious, stay open minded, right?
You know, when you're working with your customers, your
channel partners, you know, justask them about their business,
(50:21):
right? Try to understand their
perspective, what makes them tick.
If you want to find a way to create value for them, it's help
them make their business better.Stay curious.
There's just so much that we don't know, right?
So I think that that's just kindof an important mindset.
And you know, I feel like, I mean, I try to bring that to
everything I do, whether it's myinteractions with people, it's.
(50:46):
You know, I think curiosity, it's one of our core values as a
business, but I think there's, there's having a set of
questions you ask, which is different than feeling and being
innately curious, right? This, you know, following a
thread and you know, I think that's, that's something too.
It's, it's not about rehearsing questions.
That's not curiosity. Just knowing 6 things that I ask
(51:09):
every time, right? You know.
I mean, it might at least get the conversation.
Started. Yeah.
But yeah, you got to feel free enough to kind of go down a
rabbit hole, you know, if it looks interesting or at least,
you know, a thought exercise, right?
Absolutely. Well, and and I think the world
does keep changing, you know, and and certainly all of the,
(51:31):
you know, you brought up gig economy and with everything
that's digital, the only way to stay ahead of those things.
That's where innovation comes from.
It's where thought leadership comes from.
Is staying curious and going, huh, that's interesting
learning, yes. Learning, Oh my gosh, the things
my students tell me about TikTokand what's going on and you know
(51:54):
what AI can do. It's just mind blowing.
I I couldn't possibly know or keep up with that stuff.
It never ends. It never ends right.
Well, if anybody wants to reach you, how do they find you?
Oh well, I I'm easily found on Google when my kids are in
elementary school. They were like, wow mom, you
(52:15):
know you're famous. Like we can find you on Google
or you can try sandyjap.com. OK, perfect, sandyjap.com.
Well, thank you so much for coming in and sharing what you
know. Remember, there's a fine line
between genius and insanity, andwe're walking it.
I'm Moira Vetter. Join me next time on the
(52:36):
Marketing Madhouse. Big news pepperoni fans, Marco's
Pizza is celebrating America's favorite topping the best way we
know how. It's Marco's Pepperoni Fest with
three pepperoni stuffed show stoppers.
Sink your teeth into our new pepperoni bread for just 5
bucks. Grab a cheesy Pepperoni Pizzoli
handheld or go big with our iconic Pepperoni Magnifico
(52:58):
pizza. Get all these bold pepperoni
flavors. That price is worth cheering for
only during Marco's Pepperoni Fest.
Use code Pepfest California residents Use Code Pepfest CA
California prices higher Limitedtime only price participation
may bury fees and restrictions may apply.
See participating source for details.
Buying a car shouldn't be a mystery.
Hi, I'm Stacey Ellis, vice president of the Jim Ellis
Automotive Group. At Jim Ellis, we believe in
complete transparency because you deserve to know exactly what
(53:20):
you're getting. That's why we show you all the
numbers. No hidden fees, no surprises.
We explain every option clearly so you can make the right
decision with confidence. And if you ever have questions,
we have answers. Our team is here to guide you,
making sure you're informed and in control every step of the
way. At Jim Ellis Automotive, we
don't want to sell you just any car.
We want to help you buy the right car because doing the
right thing for you is what matters most to us.
(53:43):
Experience car buying the way itshould, be honest,
straightforward, and built around you.
And don't forget, Jim Ellis buyscars too.
It's a safe and easy way to get maximum value for your car.
To get started, visit one of our21 convenient locations across
metro Atlanta or shop online at jimellis.com.
The quick, easy and convenient way to search and compare more
than 5500 cars, trucks and SUV's.
(54:03):
Jim Ellis Automotive, where you can always expect the best.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.