#507 The Art of Execution: What Separates Winners from the Rest with David Kenney

Every small business owner wants to know the same thing — how do I execute?
How do I take the idea in my head and turn it into something that actually works?

In this conversation with David Kenney, we break down the real fundamentals of execution — not the theory, but the stuff that actually moves the needle.

We cover:

• David’s background and the thinking behind his new book

• Why so many people get stuck inside corporate environments and how to handle midlife career shifts

• The common patterns across successful and unsuccessful businesses

• The four pillars of capital allocation every founder needs to master

• Entrepreneurship today vs. 30 years ago — what’s changed and what hasn’t

• How to apply “Epic Execution” across different industries

• Finding, testing and validating business ideas the right way

• Building the right team and why early hires make or break a venture

• The importance of co-founders — and how to know if you need one

• Staying relevant in a fast-changing market

Purchase David's book here: https://www.amazon.com.au/EPIC-EXECUTION-SPEED-SCALE-LEVEL/dp/1960346342

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
David Kenny. Welcome to the mentor mate.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Thank you very much for having me Mark.

Speaker 1 (00:03):
I've got your new book here in front of me.
It's called Epic Execution, Speed Up, Scale Up, and Level Up.
I guess is sort of directed at startups and people
going in business generally.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Absolutely, yes, from day one to hopefully one hundred million
dollars in revenue.

Speaker 1 (00:22):
That'd be nice. Well, we'll talk about it in the moment.
Just let's just give you a bit of background on you.
So you're the founder and advisor. I guess you're the
founder most importantly of a business called Epic Execution, which
I presume is something that grew out of the the
publishing of this book.

Speaker 2 (00:40):
Yeah. Absolutely. The background is probably been in corporate for
thirty id years and been working with lots of companies
that have had great success, and decided I'd had enough
and decided to take some of the thoughts and processes
from what I've learned over those years and put it
into different companies and the way i wanted to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Well, when you people often say to me that they
worked in corporate environments, you know, one of the big
banks or whatever, you know, one of the big advisory firms,
counting firms, law firms, one of the investment banks, et cetera.
And they say that they're looking after everybody else and

(01:21):
then eventually they feel like they want to go do
something on their own from what based on what they've learned?
But what is it that makes people want to make
a change midlife? Like you know, in your case, what
was it? What was it you weren't seeing or you
weren't getting any satisfaction from.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Well, I think it came down to I'd done it
for a long time. I was really in chartered accounting
for thirty five years, so you saw lots of clients,
lots of businesses from day one to NASDAK, and through
that process, I just decided that I wanted to do
what I'm doing, but just at a different hopefully better

(02:02):
And now I just work with a few family officers
and still love helping the startups because you know that's
where the action is in many ways, and helping them
make better decisions through questions and rather than telling them
what to do, because I always say that really just
poisons their brain or pollutes their brain. Rather than telling
them what to do, you can help them work out

(02:24):
what the right thing is and get clarity around what
they're trying to discover about a customer or discover about
distribution strategy. So I think I read something like ten
thousand meetings and I just got sick of writing and
drawing the same things on the board around customers. And
so one of my mates said you should write a book.

(02:44):
So here it is.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Well, we'll talk about the book in a sec. But
it's interesting that when you work in a chart accounting
environment as opposed which is different to public accounting, I
guess to some extent, the client's probably a little can
be a bit more sophisticated, a bit more demanding.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
Yeah, we had some really good clients.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, so you and you said thirty years, so you
would have seen some. You would have got some midstream,
some had already been in business when you first got
to get involved in them. You would have seen some startup,
some startup, and over the thirty period you'd have seen
lots drop out. You would have seen some just you know,
meandering along doing okay, paying their accounting fees, paying the

(03:27):
tax office, maybe making a living out of it. And
then you would have seen some that sort of kicked
the ball out of the park killed it. What is
for the ones in the ones who failed and all
the ones and maybe also the ones who just meandered
along and made a living for over twenty thirty years.

(03:51):
What were they doing? Maybe not wrong, but what were
they doing? Is there any common denominators for any of
those organizations.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
I think there is actually because a lot of them
worth getting stuck on in their own ways, and they
weren't evolving, and they weren't looking at the customer and saying,
what's the customer need now? And they weren't customer centric enough,
or they weren't working on their systems. They were taking
things for granted, they weren't focused enough on the processes

(04:18):
and the team and developing the teams and putting themselves
out of their comfort zone as well. That's a big
part of it, is like the customer doesn't stand still
so near the can you? So you've got to keep
getting better at getting better?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
So it does it mean though that there's some people
just really aren't suited for going into these things in
the first place. Is it a mindset or a personality thing,
or is it just not having the right skills?

Speaker 2 (04:41):
I think it's all three it's some people don't ever
develop the skills. Some people have the wrong mindset and
they don't have the right character, so they may not
want to keep getting out of the comfort zone to
discover what it is they're not doing right because they
want to be right as opposed to it better. This

(05:01):
is a difference. There's a big difference, isn't there. And
I think the other problem that most people have is
they never really get better at what I call capital allocation.
They don't get better at making increasingly narrow or misses
when it comes to what they're spending their time and
attention on. I think the key thing with capital allocation

(05:22):
is you've got essentially four pieces of arsenal and the
race of building a business, and that is your time,
what you focus on, your attention, what money you put
into that, and then third, fourthly the people and the
attention and the money that you spend on them to focus.
So if you don't get those things right and sequentially right,

(05:47):
and you take things for granted or you don't focus
on the right things, you usually don't end up building
a product that people want to buy or stick with,
so they won't try it, they won't pay for it.
They won't stay with it. They come along for the
journey as you keep growing it and working out how
will add more value and what it will do next,

(06:08):
and how the process will keep creating a system and
platform that keeps getting better each time there's a new
customer comes on. So like, they don't get a network
effect by doing the same thing all the time, and
nobody wants to keep making the product better.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
So maybe you just go through those four things again.
So the first I think the first one I said
is four different types of capital or allocation of capital
is your time. But being that's capital, that's your time.
Your time is an asset, it's capital, so you've got
to maybe you just dig into that a little bit.
So the first one being time your time, when you

(06:44):
say they don't allocate that properly or efficiently or strategically
perhaps tactically, what do you mean by that? So I
spent you saying I might maybe, oh file because if
I'm spending my time on irrelevant things, am I wasting
my time?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
What do you mean? Well? I like to use thinking
models because they help people without telling them what to do,
and I use this one called radar. So and first
the first, R and radar is reality. So a lot
of people think this is a problem, but they don't
have a thorough understanding of the process or the problem
or the customer's world. So spending enough time to understand

(07:21):
what they're doing and what the real issue is not
just a superficial look at it. That helps you build
something or be relevant as well. And so that's that's
the starting point. And then you still as a founder
or a CEO, whoever you are, you're trying to solve
a problem. You want to understand what your assumptions are,

(07:43):
what's reality versus an assumption, and then from that information
you want to then develop insights. So what are what
are these things telling me that the customer needs? And
what are the insights telling me about where I should
focus next? And then then I need to design and
an experiment, so design and doing if you like. And

(08:07):
then execution is the doing part epig execution, and then
R is for repeat because you're just constantly learning around
what's changing, what the customer's realities are, what the assumptions
are becoming irrelevant. Therefore you go back to reality. Then
you make insights, which helps you develop your product, which
helps you create more value and then caption more value

(08:31):
for the customers when you know there's plenty of competitors
and people hang around if you quep creating.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
More value for them, Well that's the first one, allocation
of your time.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
What do they have? Three into the other three are
looking at what you focus on as well. So you've
got time you can Usually when you start a business
you might have at most adding to twenty four months.
And if you don't allocate and find proof that you're
actually building something that matter, you run out right. See
your KAPA runs out, et cetera. So the things you

(09:05):
spend time on. So it's a slight nuanced difference. I
find that people go, well, that's how much time have
I got? But you've got time? But then what are
you going to focus on? So what do you do first?
And I see a lot of people going back to mistakes.
They think, well, let me go and get this award,
or let me get some publicity, or let me write
lots and lots of articles on LinkedIn maybe, or do

(09:26):
something which isn't actually sequentially right to do at the
right time. Now to solve this problem and work out
what the reality is. So that framework just keeps you honest,
It keeps you searching for the truth, not doing what
feels good, not doing what is not right or relevant
at the time, and then going back to the third thing,

(09:47):
which is then the time that you have other people's time.
So then you've got you decided that you've worked enough out.
Now I need to expand my team. So now I've
got a person on, but I need to get the
right person and then what they then spend their time doing.
So these are just I call them the four bets.
You've got the four chips in the race to build

(10:08):
a business. So those four chips, I think are useful
thinking tools for people to go what am I going
to do? I'll get up today, what am I working on?
What am I getting my team to do? What am
I focusing on myself? What am I spending money on?
And how do I assess what the right bets are?
And that's why here's the reference of how do I

(10:29):
make increasingly narrow misses because you're still guessing, but you
want to get better at making fewer misses.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Being in business will be an entrepreneur.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
Is like.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Fraught with potholes everywhere. It's just drama. Twenty four hours
a day, especially these days, because the world's much more
competitive than ever before, much much more because everyone's thinking
about it. You think you're the one got an idea,
but a thousand others have already thought about it, and
some have already got it up and running. Do you
think entrepreneurship today is as viable as it was, say

(11:05):
when you first started working on your clients thirty years ago.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
I think there's still just as many problems.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
But the viability of.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
The viability, I think it can be even more viable.
It depends on what you're focusing on. Are you focusing
on solving a problem that needs to be fixed because
a lot of people think I'll do this, but it's
not relevant enough, it's not the right problem, you aren't
the right person, or you don't have the right thought processes.
So is it still viable? Like I'm saying, so many companies,

(11:39):
the valuations are going almost astronomical, particularly if they've got
native AI. So if they've got the model, they've got
the data, and they've got the processes and workflows, they're
getting crazy valuations. Like I see some of the AI
companies are getting seventy times their revenue as a valuation,
not ibata revenue.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah, that's a big use. That doesn't last.

Speaker 2 (12:04):
It doesn't last. Well, we've you know, I'm sure you've
seen plenty of companies that have haven't stood the test
of time. And that's the that's the whole joy of
starting a company is seeing if you can make it work,
and because it's a pretty noble thing to do, solve
a problem and stay alive and figure it out and
sell the customers and employ people and create value for everybody.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
But is your epic execution your book?

Speaker 2 (12:29):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Is it just about though you sort of mentioned aire
companies using AI and where AI companies your typical entrepreneurs path.
There's your book also addressing, for example, the cafe next door,
does it get to that level?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
I don't specifically say the cafe, but what I do
believe is that the principles of any business are very similar.
They revolve around solving a problem. They revolve around this tribution,
They revolve around you economics, They revolve around constant system
improvement and delivering learning, reshaping and creating a profit. So

(13:13):
fixing a problem, seeing the right problem, fixing it, and
then you can back.

Speaker 1 (13:19):
So, for example, the guy outside here. He's got a
coffee shop. Yeah, he serves food and stuff like that.
The problem I presume that you're talking about is that
people new cafe in the morning. We sure do, yeah
and so, And he's open at five am. He's the
first to open round and has been like that for
a million years. Is would that be the problem? Like,

(13:43):
who's like the consumer has the problem the way he
and the problem that the consumer has is I'm up early.
There's no Randy to get a coffee that's sort of
safe because we're in the middle of the cross at
the time of day, especially in the winter, it's pitch black.
Is that would you say that's the problem that he's

(14:04):
trying to solve? Where do I get my very Where
can I get the early coffee, decent coffee, first thing
in the morning.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
It definitely gives him a unique selling proposition, is that
he's open early, and he's got a good quality coffee,
and he's therefore got football and traffic around the area.
It's a busy area, lots of people up early wanting
to get out and more the cyclist cyclists go past,
and you've got starving crowd mentality saying let's go and
get a good coffee and they know where to get it.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
But how do you, Howard, I don't know if he
actually sat down and thought that through, but late as
a as an advisor to people, how do you actually
determine what the problem is that I need to solve
to go into business? And because like, because there's like
a million problems out there, so and we're all able
to go into in the business to solve a million problems,

(14:53):
you know, Like I guess it started with him because
he's a cook, he's a chef. He probably thought, well,
my first position is I like food. I know food,
so I apply my I can apply my skills to
that area. And now I'm going to choose a problem
in the food area, that being people need to get
a couple of coffee first thing in the morning. It's
maybe some food with it as well. And I'm pretty

(15:16):
confident I can solve. I'm pretty confident I have the
skills to do that. And we'll talk about staffing in
the moment, because that's pretty important to in terms of
your execution. I guess is that because a lot of
people were saying, oh I got a job, there might
be like you working in a firm, but they want
to have a do something at night, and they want
to do like have a little side hustle. But I

(15:37):
don't know where to start. They think, well, how do
they make a start? Which zone of entrepreneurship do they
settle on? I mean, is a place where you have
some skill or you have some interest or how do
you do it? Well, I think that you've done that.
You've gone in a business. You've got a business in
an area that you have skills in and passion and
we am passion to so and you are. Yeah. But

(16:03):
like if you go back when you first started working,
before you did your chart accounting stuff, you probably wouldn't
have gone and done this because you would have gone, well,
I don't really know enough about it. So let's say
some young person is sort of sitting there and they're
working in charter accounting for them, they're trying to work out,
or they're working anywhere, doesn't matter, work in a bank,
doesn't matter. But I really won't have my own thing

(16:26):
sooner or later. I don't want to wait till David
wait until he was forty eight fifty would have rade
you are. I want to start it now. Plus someone
who'd worked during the day, where do they sort of
look for the problem that they can solve.

Speaker 2 (16:41):
Finding the problem there everywhere, I guess the question is
are you the right person to solve it? Yeah? How
do you validate it enough that? Well? I think you
need to think through and again the book has the
structure of saying it starts with you. So you're working
out what are the truth of your circumstances, well, the
truth of your your knowledge? And what do you what

(17:01):
are you missing? Are you good in with ambiguity? Can
you are you happy to stick out things? Will you
work it out and go through tough problems? Because we
know that lots of companies do fail. So as a result,
you know, you've got to have some of the right attributes.
So working out do you have the right attributes? Do
you need a co founder? What do you stand for?

(17:22):
How are you? What are your what's your makeup of?
What do you know? What are you good at? What
are you still figuring out? And then working out is
this a fit to a customer? Is this does this
customer have a problem that I can meet and by
delivering it consistently, will I build goodwill? Will I build

(17:43):
a following? Will I build, can I deliver it at
the right level, with the right margins, with the right repetition,
so that eventually maybe I can sell that business. And
I think that those processes that anyone who's looking for
is starting with themselves and then determining how do I
get to know about what the problem is so that

(18:05):
I can know that I can build something which will
be customer centric. And that starts by asking questions of
the customer and not just saying let me go and
build something so if they like it. And that's why
a lot of companies do go broke, is they build
something before they're validated the need, or they haven't worked
out how to capture the value and therefore or create value.
Therefore they can't capture any because they haven't really created anything.

(18:29):
So once they've established there's a need, they can then
provide a service and test. They can check reality, they
can check assumptions, they can check the insights. You know
what the customers do and think and are they enjoying
the coffee, and they look at the customer and the
eye rather than just doing a survey, they can say, oh,

(18:49):
great coffee after a good bike ride and you're onto
a formula, so you assess people by being in the
wild with them rather than just doing a hypothetical let
me put out to see if anyone likes it. That's
a real expensive way of learning. So you say they
should do their research. Absolutely, I think research is a
gift and doing research before you spend a lot of

(19:12):
money is just a very smart way of doing things.
And you can learn more by sitting in front of
a customer not telling them what to do. I'm not saying, Okay,
there's a cup of coffee, what do I do with
That's pretty easy? Drink it? But do they like it?
What do they they just like the company? Do they
get the formula right? What goes together? The brand of coffee,

(19:34):
the brand of coffee, all of those things go into
the success of a company in the long term, because
as long as tribute.

Speaker 1 (19:42):
There's a liver coffee shops, and the one outside here
is the busiest by far. It's like fifty meters from
the twenty meters from the next one. And I often
wonder why these guys are here always packed, and the

(20:02):
other ones some aren't packed at all. In fact, there's
sometimes I feel sorry for the others because they've got
no one in there, and like they're alsoving coffee is
probably know the coffee quality is a decent relative to
everybody else. There must be something else in the formula
that takes me to the people part people capital. What's

(20:22):
interesting about the one next door here it does quite well,
is there's three guys are in partnership together. They're all
x chefs from a really well known restaurant, so they
all know to cook. They've all worked together in really
small type places, so you know, they don't get too
precious about the environment they're working in. It's their business anyway.

(20:44):
And they have this sort of rhythm of there's always
two on and one has a day off, and that
they're sort of they have this amazing understanding of each other.
Like it's nearly like someone orders over here. They don't
even have to tell each other who's going to do.
It just happens. Then they're all about the same age,

(21:06):
they're all got families, the kids have all grown up together.
They're all live in a similar sort of area. They
have been forever. How important is it in what your
book's about. It's all great to have the idea and
you don't your research. You know, people want to get
their coffeet five o'clock in the morning, blah blah blah.
But then you've got to execute. How important is it

(21:27):
in terms of excuse execution, having the right team.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
It's vitable and I think every good business there's nice
sing as a technology business because people built the technology.
I think the customer centricity around you can have as
much AI as you like, and even in coffee shops,
I'm sure people are already starting to use AI. But

(21:51):
having customer service and people knowing your name and people
knowing what your order, or them know your name, no, yeah,
them knowing your name, come in and you go, same again,
Mark you know you're ready for the latest larder or
whatever you have, and asking how you are. It's not
just the coffee. The product is how they make you feel.

(22:13):
What did they see, how do they assess your needs?
How do they see you? How do they consistently provide
good service and quality coffee and the vibe and being
around other people that are enjoying themselves. I think that
whole ambience is part of the product that they have

(22:33):
and the personnel. The personnel helped create that. There's a
thing called the last five yards. I mentioned in the
book that you can spend all the money on good coffee.
You have a great location, you can have a great brand.
But if someone walks in and they say you're right,
you go, yeah, of course I'm right, But you haven't
asked me if I want a coffee, or I sat

(22:55):
down or said hello, or nice day to day. There's
a whole vibe making people feel welcome. And I think
that people tend to stick with the brand because they
know that this is my home, this is where I
go for coffee, this is my routine, this is how
I like to start my day. And by feeling at
home and comfortable and being around people that know you

(23:18):
and like you, you got them for life usually.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
And therefore that's as interesting. You should say that because
they are only closed one day the year once and
because maybe if they close, if they if they decided. Look,
this happened to me the other day. Actually I wasn't
not in Sydney. I was somewhere else and there's a
very good coffee shop. They're really cool joint, you know.

(23:45):
And I was there and and I noticed I said
to the guy that I'll come back tomorrow. Tomorrow was
a Saturday, so we don't know what weekends, what coffee
shop doesn't open on weekend. A tourist area too, by
the way. And so I went somewhere else because I
had to. There's no one else to go, but somewhere else.

(24:06):
The guy there was really nice, interesting, cool guy. And
now I go to that other place all the time,
whereas I was prepared to give my custom to the
first place. This building of a rhythm in terms of
how and therefore where this point becomes important to my

(24:27):
point of view is that I've since found out the
reason was is because the individual's are in the first place,
they like to have a couple of days off fair
enough because they've got to spend time with the kids
and their family and all that sort of stuff. But
when you come to choosing your partners, your staff, etc.
You need to have somebody's prepared to work on maybe
every second weekend. You do one weekend, they do one weekend.

(24:48):
Like That's why these guys here are so successful, because
they just keep rolling between each other. You know, maybe
this weekend too, working on Saturday, Sunday, the next week
the other the other. They swap it around. They just
keep moving around. So in terms of choosing your personnel
and your business partners, You've also got to understand in
terms of execution, you've got.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
To have a good rhythm.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Absolutely, a rhythm issuits that consumer, not you completely.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
It's got to be customer centric. So I always say, well,
what's your model. Or you have a great coffee, You
have a location, you have a price, you have a
different process for when someone comes in. But then you
have the mechanics around how you deliver and how you
manufacture and how you buy, etc. But there's one thing
that's always missing in every business that doesn't succeed, and

(25:38):
that's the magic. So you have your mechanics, your model,
but you have to have the magic. And the magic
is how you make the customer feel or with some
unexpected value that they get that is beyond the commodity.
Like you can get a coffee that probably unless you're
a coffee offficient aficionado, you might not know the difference

(25:58):
between the coke and the PEPSI test, you know, but
you know how the person made you feel.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah, you always remember the feeling.

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, you remember the feeling because you go they said,
I've got my usual table, it's ready for you. It's
seen to drink, now you like to drink. And that's
part of the service, part of the product. It's part
of the loyalty in the brand. And so when people
have a brand, they say, well, we're the world's best coffee.
You know, you can't burn the beans, right, So the

(26:26):
brand helps you actually know what is part of your
standard operating processes.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
So you're right, because when I think of these guys here,
I do think of they're open through in sixty four
days a year. I know if I'm coming past this way,
it doesn't matter what day of the year is except
Christmas DA. If I want to coffee, which is every day,
I can get one, yeah, absolutely, they got you. Yeah,
and I'll happing to been my tenant too. But it

(26:54):
doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
But they don't know. They don't know that they might
do that.

Speaker 1 (26:56):
But it's interesting because that that rhythm knowing and to
build to have a good rhythm, you know, like a
business rhythm, you've got to have people who can actually
execute on the rhythm. Because you can have the rhythm
in your brain. You can write down a piece of paper,
but it's got to work. Someone's got to execute on it.
So you've got to find either business partners or staff

(27:16):
and or both that can actually help you execute on that. Now,
how do you find like minded people?

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Well, I think the key thing is not just teaching
them skills. It's finding people that want to be customer centric.
It's finding people that like your brand and want to
They're just got the humble, but they're also ambitious. They
people people because if you're just turning up, people know
you're dialing it in. You want to enjoy your work.

(27:46):
It's infectious by say hey, what a great day.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
How do you find them?

Speaker 2 (27:52):
Though?

Speaker 1 (27:53):
It's not easy because do you ask them certain questions?

Speaker 2 (27:58):
I think you do. Yeah, like you want to treat
everything as a as a test. You want to maybe
even give them some paid work. And so I'm going
to put you on and see you in action. If
you hire someone that is doing one skill. I always
talk about hiring salespeople and say hi, two, don't just
hire one because you don't know if it's the product.

(28:20):
You don't have a person. You don't know if it's
one person had a deeper set of connections to begin with,
you want to compare and then but by getting people
to want to be customer centric. I think you ask
questions around what are they interested in? Do they can
they have a conversation? Can they Are they interested in

(28:42):
just the pay or are interested in enjoying the job
and being having fun and not just talking to the coworker.
Those things matter by making having them understand you are
part of the product, so you reflect you're our brand
if you want to do a good job. These are

(29:03):
some examples, and the constant training that is provided and
by being able to remember Peter Richie speaking of Peter
Ritchie from McDonald's who said he invested three times as
much as the McDonald's globally on training and that was
because it didn't just make a big difference to the customers,

(29:24):
it also gave the employee's confidence. And by giving them confidence,
they get to carry that through in all parts of
their life. So if you get someone to believe, because
it's true that you're trying to develop them, and that's
not just a function of doing the job which you're
getting paid for and it's a transaction, you're helping someone

(29:49):
become better at communication, which I think is a secret
to life is by being able to break down an issue,
talk to someone asked questions lead them in a way
that helps them get better. Because I always say, people
don't care what you know until they know how.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Much you care you should you tell them that? Should
you tell these employees that you want to meet them
to become the best version of themselves?

Speaker 2 (30:12):
I think it helps. I think what the I mean?
Some people might say, hng on, that's a bit creepy,
or why do we I mean, isn't this just a job? Well,
it could be maybe they're the wrong person though, But
being able to say, well, would you like to have
a better conversation with your spouse, with your girlfriend or
your boyfriend or your mates. By learning how to communicate,

(30:35):
ask questions, be curious, be observant of what people are doing,
thinking you will be by definition you know, you'll have
more gravitas or you'll have more charisma, And a lot
of people think that that helps them in life. And
by saying, look, we don't just teach you to make coffee.
Going back to that example, we teach you to be curious,

(30:58):
We teach you to notice people. We teach you to
ask questions and be interested and learn, and we're going
to pay you as well, so it makes it more
than the job. More than the job is something that
you're learning, and this is something that you are in
the ip of. This is something you take throughout your

(31:18):
life which is helping you in difficult situations. A lot
of people used to call it soft skills. And I
was reading a book on the plane coming back yesterday
from Adam Grant, one of my favorite authors, and he
talked about people having this thing called hidden talent and
being curious and wanting to learn around how they get

(31:41):
to the next level by asking questions and being part
of a process that makes the whole ecosystem better. And
like the coffee shop is learning how to and the
guys that are running it, as you said, they've already
run another business, so they took all lessons and they
applied it and it seems to be working really nicely.

(32:03):
So to me, the key thing is keep learning, being curious,
and being able to spot people that want that. And
you've got to want that. If you don't want that,
they're probably the wrong people to die. So I think
that it's a combination of finding the right people but

(32:25):
also explaining what's in it for them to learn.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
But you said something interesting that a moment ago in
terms of your you said earlier on having co founders,
and I hear a lot of people, especially in startups,
particularly if they've got any technology associated with as a startup,
because you know, you might have a person who's I

(32:49):
don't know, a scientist who's got great ideas, understanding and
background and knowledge about a certain topic. But this particular
thing needs to be put on an app for arguments sake,
and the app requires someone who can write code for
arguments and or or someone who can build a brand

(33:11):
fagamacy when you're but the initial founder idea is with
let's call it the scientist who has the knowledge what
in your case, the chart account had the knowledge. How
do you go about how important is to have a
co founder and how do you go about finding a
co founder?

Speaker 2 (33:32):
Well, I think it everybody's got an opinion on whether
or not someone needs a co founder, and often that
I think comes down to whether or not the person
themselves could do it without another person. And again I
feel like it's very specific to each person. Do they
have an honest discussion about what their real weaknesses and

(33:55):
strengths are, what does it take to build a company. So,
in your example, if the scientist as the tech skills
maybe to write a platform, build the code, build it
out so that we've got something to launch. But you're
a business person, maybe you need that tech person. But
that's interestingly becoming less and less of a barrier now

(34:17):
with all this low code software that's come out, so
people can stand up a website or they can build
an MVP very easily, like over the weekend, in a
few hours. Even so, I think that being a co
founder goes beyond just the technical skills that can be
if you're someone who likes to have a partner, likes

(34:40):
to be able to bounce things around, likes to share
the load, or to be able to explain things in
a way that you'd like to hear yourself, think, to
challenge and be there and not just assume everything's going
to go right because it doesn't. Things are wrong, And

(35:01):
therefore having the other person who's got just as much
skin in the game is often important. But sometimes people
don't need that help, and they can be genuinely very
you know, capable of doing it without. And I've seen
some founders, single founders that have built the platform, done

(35:21):
the distribution. I think one person I'm thinking of is
building an exceptionally exceptional businesses one I think only one
employee and his revenue was very, very substantial, like big
big nuns.

Speaker 1 (35:37):
So, but it's when you look at the companies that
have succeeded versus the companies that failed, because you know,
when you go along to investors and or pitching your
idea to raise money, a lot of times the VC's
like to see you've got a co founder. They do
it because it sort of risks their investment to some
extent because they feel as though you can't do anything

(36:01):
but b yeah, you get sick and whatever. There's things happen,
you know, and people can get a little bit stressed
when they're running it themselves, and you can start to
get a bit noise in your head and it can
sern you a bit nuts.

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Yeah, you've got someone that's got just as much skin
in the game. You've got someone who's your ying to
yang different skills different and obviously vcs they think, well,
hang on, if someone goes, then does that IP go
Do they need to hire someone? What what's the infrastructure
look like in terms of who does what? Where? Are

(36:34):
the real skills? Are they complimentary? Are they doing something
different because they just know divide and conquer or do
they have very overlapping skills as well. Just depends on
the team. But I think vcs often default for having
a co founder, but it's not necessarily absolute because there's
some pretty exceptional founders out there that haven't got a

(36:58):
co founder. But I think as a general rule, it's
nice to have somebody, particularly from a VC's point of view,
and they're going, well, what if someone leaves, what happens
to their shares? What happens to their the team and
the shares reset? Do they get you know, those shares
don't vest, they their laps, which often helps the VC.

(37:20):
But again it's usually not a good idea if the
founder leaves, particularly if they were bringing value. But often
that's because they haven't figured out some of the key
proof points that they need to do before they run
out of trust, they run out of money, and they
run out of time.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
But generally speaking, because I mean I gave an example
of the conference shop next door, but there's three founders there,
three co founders, and they all know which id really well,
and they're like family, really like they just live their
lives together like quite literally and seven days a week,
and as do their families, and seems so far it
seems to work quite well. You know, they've been my

(37:58):
tenant for a long, long, long time, and you know
they've always been on paid, on time. Everything's going well.
I can just observe it's doing well. But in terms
of choosing your co founder, they've got, as you said,
overlapping skills. But that allows someone to take couple of
days of because I know if I take a day
off that my partner he or she can go and
do this exactly what I can do, which means I

(38:19):
can sort of relax. I'm not going to be sit
at home on the weekend thinking prepare. Yeah, bloody hell,
they're going to stuff the whole business up because they
don't have any personality or skills, or can't cook a meal,
or can't make a coffee, whatever the case may be.
The overlapping skills is probably quite handy sometimes. But do
you find that have you found in your thirty odd

(38:41):
years and doing this stuff that co founders, sorry founders
with co founders tend to do a bit better on
single founders.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
I think as a general rule, yes, Because as you
touched on you when you're just left alone in your thoughts,
got anyone to bounce things off, and when you're thinking
is this a good idea, and you're going well, probably
is because I thought of it. Maybe, But if you've
got someone to bounce it off and be a jousting partner,

(39:13):
so that the best ideas that are both loved by
both might get through to the top and executed on
versus people where they don't have anyone to bounce things off.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
But because it's pretty lonely out there in business.

Speaker 2 (39:27):
Absolutely, I think that's one of the key things that
founders complained about, apart from can't raise money, it's lonely,
they have.

Speaker 1 (39:36):
Le exigning. It's not that exigning.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
A lot of people think it's overrated being a startup founder,
and I think, but it is a very noble thing
to do, go and try and solve a problem where
you may well have no right to actually solve with
limited money, limited time, limited capacity, massive competitors that are
much more funded than you. So but it's exciting as well,

(40:02):
Like it's really one of the most exciting things to
do is to build a company from nothing.

Speaker 1 (40:07):
In terms of executions, it's something interesting. Right at we're
beginning to it's about continually being curious and learning. So
and I'm sorry to keep going back to the coffee shop.
But what's interesting is that I've noticed over the past
six months that coffee shops, a lot of coffee shops
now have Matcha that Japanese the Green Green, and they've

(40:32):
all quite a few more to say, you know, it's
a ceremonial matcher. I don't know if that means, but
maybe it's organic or something like that, but high quality.
I'm assuming it means it's high quality. So I think
what you're saying is if you want to service your community,
and like around here, communities change all the time. The

(40:54):
demographics change here all the time. They go at one stage,
this is a pretty crappy area, you know, like it
was or socioeconomically was a bit more down market so
to speak. Now it's sort of changing and it's becoming
more like say Paddington or whatever. It's going to be
a bit more fancy, and that demographic brings with a
whole set of new tastes. And you, as the proprietor,

(41:17):
are you saying that you're going to make sure you
serve your community. Don't just thing I just coffee is
always welled. I've got to keep giving him a coffee
because how do I, if I'm in business, how do
I make sure that I don't miss that match of community?
And because I don't have Matcha, because someone might have
a coffee first and a match A second, but if

(41:38):
they don't, if I don't have Matcha, they're going to go.
So I'm not going to that place any We're going
to get on the road because they've got Matcha. How
do I stay curious enough? And what does that mean
by being curious to stay on top of the product
suite that the consumer wants that I've been servicing.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, I think it's not taking the custom for granted
for starters. And the metaphor that is often used is
your market is like a starving crowd, but it's also
marching past you. So it's changing all the time. The components,
the direction, the their needs are changing, so nobody is

(42:13):
really standing still. And as a result, the only way
to really understand what their needs are is to be
engaged and have conversations with them and say, you know,
you're not saying constantly did you like the coffee today?
You know, but you're saying what are you? What are
you guys saying any competitors around any thinking something's cool?

(42:34):
What else are you? Is this? You know, why do
you come here? Rather than asking them the same question
at the time, which sounds boring, you go what's your
favorite drink of the mart? Like we've been thinking about
changing a menu? What would you do?

Speaker 1 (42:49):
Should you get off your button? Especially we've got a
partner and say to your barn go to every single
cafe in you know, like in the five aligning areas
maybe Mossman, Neutral Bay City, whatever, Darning Earth, et cetera.
And see what everyone else is serving. Yeah, and then
find out what people asking for. I mean they're doing

(43:09):
the research, say thinking, oh I'm good?

Speaker 2 (43:12):
How good are we?

Speaker 1 (43:13):
Everyone loves our coffee, which could be just great, but
it doesn't last forever. Things change, They do, taste refine,
it does very quickly.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Yeah, I think that's Is that what you mean by
being curious?

Speaker 1 (43:25):
Do something about it?

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Absolutely, Like I mean, I always ask myself this question,
what have I missed?

Speaker 1 (43:33):
So be a little bit paranoid.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
Yeah, be a little bit paranoid. You've got to be
to start a business. You've got to be part pathological
optimist and part paranoid about what have I missed? Because
you have to get it right every day, turn up, deliver,
be customer centric, look after your team, look after your stakeholders,

(43:56):
don't run out o money, create more margin. It's all
there to be done. That's why it's damn hard, and
it's done well. It's a site to behold. That's the
exciting part. By staying curious, it's around putting the customer
at the center of the page. It's being able to
understand their world better than they can themselves, being able

(44:19):
to anticipate their needs because they don't know what their
needs are. They but you can observe people saying that
they didn't finish the coffee or you know where. This
is a great episode for coffee. We're going into.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
Pretty simple because I're just trying to pick the lowest
common delight.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
Absolutely, I started with a couple of good coffees today,
and I think it's around not just focusing on what
other people are doing, because I feel that can be
quite lazy to say. And how people price as well,
like saying I'll use or compare my price to someone else.
But you should know how much value you create rather

(44:57):
than just copying someone. If you're copying someone, you be
easy to copy. You don't have any real competitive advantage.
So by being able to be curious about customer's needs
and anticipating them and testing your theories and assumptions and
the insights that you constantly, this is the rate of model,

(45:21):
which is a what's the reality of people still drinking
just as much coffee? I mean, for example, beer drinking
has changed. There's non alcoholic drinks. Now, there's companies like Liars.
The people are changing to Kombcher. But then they're wanting
Matcha and they're wanting this, So nobody wants necessarily the
same thing. That's the mistake to make to say the

(45:41):
customer will always want my product. Customer may not. Customer
goes next door, you closed on a Saturday, you missed out,
You've lost a customer. So what is important to the customer?
What can you communicate to the customer as well? What
is the process around getting them to understand your business
better and understanding how you deliver value and testing? Is

(46:04):
that meeting their demand?

Speaker 1 (46:06):
It's funny you should say today because I was just
thinking about some a podcast podcaster the other day and
this particular podcaster talks about it's very good at talking
about one topic or one subject matter, very really good.
But that subject matter only exists for maybe nine months

(46:26):
of the year during a season. It's a seasonal thing,
and they build up their audience during that nine month
period and putting one out a week, And because during
that nine month period there is something new to talk
about every week as a result of outcomes from the weekend,
for example, and then they put together a podcast, and
they do the podcast during the week and they keep

(46:48):
feeding their consumer customer. But then that seasonality stops, and
then for three to four months of the year, there's
nothing happening in that particular subject matter. And I always
thought it to myself, for that three for months, if

(47:08):
you don't run podcasts for those three four months, you
shouldn't expect those people who've been watching your podcast or
listening to a podcast to come back to you next
year when the season starts again. You've got to keep
giving them something. And because people used to a rhythm
of a weekly rhythm, I'm trying to move away from
coffee shops and we're moving into podcasts. And because if

(47:30):
you start these things, you've got to You've got to
be prepared to keep going completely and like it might,
you might even have to be prepared to go from
one week to you know three every two weeks or something.
You've got to be prepared for this. You can't just say,
oh no, I'm just gonna go for the season. At
the end of the season, I'm gonna have a break
too for three months. And you used to see it,
for example, you see it on the Footage show. You know,

(47:52):
the Footage Show would go, you know, nine o'clock whatever
time was on on Thursday nights, and then when the
football season finished, it was finished and people would go
and get their sport fixed from other places. That gave
people like Foxtel an opportunity to grab you absolutely. You know,
they would start talking about cricket and boxing and golf
and tennis and every other thing that comes on during

(48:12):
the summer season, and all of a sudden you get diluted.
And then when your consumer wants to come back next year,
they're thinking, why, I'm getting a pretty good feed from
Foxtel now, so maybe you'll just stay with Foxtel. I
can't be stuff to change and I'm not going to
go I mean you don't. All right, let's say you
had a one hundred thousand listeners, but if you lose

(48:34):
ten thousand, that's quite a lot. Absolutely, Yeah, it's ten
percent of your base. And I'm not saying everyone's going
to go and go back to stay with the fox
Stell on that example, But how important is it to
remain in people's sphere mind share? Yeah, we call the
mind share share.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, like, if you're not relevant, you've lost you know,
you've got to stay relevant, You've got to keep in
the cycle of having especially these days. Yeah, absolutely, people
have got the attention spans of you know, golf golfish.
So by being relevant and consistent, like people say they're

(49:16):
like consistency, but they also like variety. So getting it
right is very is very hard. So by having a
podcast that disappears for three months, you potentially lose all
of those people.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
You don't If I'm you're a competition, I'm going to
love that. Yeah, I'll take advantage of that.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
There's a niche, there's a there's a gap in the market.
There's a space for people that just need the routine
of having their podcast because they're driving or they're listening
and they're enjoying something about it. It's their routine. People
love a routine.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
And if they know you come out every Monday, not
at six pm, it nearly becomes podcast by appointment. Yes,
so now all of a sudden you're not there at
six pm, they'll fill that gap with something else.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
You go to the gym, you have your podcast, you go,
you do this. Like people love routine.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
Yeah, and if it's a good quality podcast like yours,
people tune in and they expect to be entertained and
they learned something.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
What a great combination.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
And when it comes to entertainment, entertainment it doesn't just
mean make your laugh, it means information. Because the news
is part of the entertainment cycle.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
That's quite entertaining.

Speaker 1 (50:26):
It is quitetain but like you know that, that's sort
of entertainment covers everything, information, data, whether you know, fun sport,
it covers just better everything. So entertainment and if if
you're in a podcast, well that's your game. You're entertaining.
So you've got to keep entertaining. People want to be
continually entertained. It doesn't stop going.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Back to you're curious, like you're just saying, what's going on?

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Yeah, So in terms of execution, how important is consistency
like that? By way of the example I just gave.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
You, I think it's massively important to have the consistency
so that people know that your brand is reliable. People
are going to keep tuning in or keep buying your
product because it delivers the value they expect to have
each and every time. And that's what develops loyalty, that habit,

(51:18):
the process, the it's it's the product. That's just how
people remember what they're doing when they are absorbing it
or having it, or the smell of the coffee, whatever
it is that just inculcates their their psyche. It's not
just the taste, it's the whole process.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
Is the tone and talk about podcasts about tone voice.
So your book here which is it says here, praise
the back here we've got a couple of people doing reviews.
I can't read it with a class, but praise RebC
execution and David Kenny from Vision to Velocity, and it

(52:00):
talks about what your books trying to promote. If I
was to if you were to tell me what your chapters,
you don't need to go through of your chapter, but
how is it the book structured in terms of chapters
around the executioner being epicat executing. I notice you're twenty
four world class execution selling to Goliath. Let's steal a

(52:22):
fortune five hundred customer from our competitor, still a fortune
five and customer from our competitor starts selling rookie mistakes.
I love that one. How much can I raise which
we're raising money? Hiring teams? Great, HR starts from the top.
Sure does you talk about business models mentors? Well, you're

(52:43):
covering which every first chapter. That's your first chapter, the
three es central truths, and I'm doing with that. It's
the six traits of disruptive founders, the same as the
same number the problem. And I just asked you the
question answering myself, but which are the chapters that do

(53:04):
you find that are really enriching. I mean you're going
to say everyone, but.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
No, actually, I mean I almost didn't write a finance chapter.
It was just that people said, no, you need to,
you have to.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Yeah, you appeel like you we think that's boring, but
it isn't.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Yeah. I really do feel like my favorite chapter is
on storytelling.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
That's chapter nine, storytelling, getting to the truth. Yeah, you've
actually got a chapter on finding your co founder?

Speaker 2 (53:33):
Yeah, I do. Yeah. I feel like what I've done
is try to sequence the process from thinking I want
to do something, I want to start in a business,
from working out is it you? Can you do it?
Are you going to give up the next seven years
of your life to do this? So can you even

(53:53):
get to a million dollars in revenue? Are you going
to need someone to do it with, like a co
found If you do, how are you going to choose
that person? What are the traits you're looking for? What
are the questions? And what are the rules of engagement
so that you just don't have you make less mistakes.
So the whole point writing the book was there's probably
the ten thousand conversations I've had with founders that I've said, well,

(54:16):
what are the most important bits of those ten thousand
conversations with people that I think that would be interesting
to read because they've got to be in enough detail
so that you get what I'm saying. But they've also
got to be question led, because that way I can
be evergreen this book to say rather than saying there's

(54:36):
a set of questions you need to ask but what
I don't know your circumstances. So I'm giving your framework
to think about what the problem is. And then in
the individual chapters like storytelling or who are the stories
you're telling? Who are the people you're trying to tell
the story to your team, even your mum, like what
are you doing for a living? Yeah? Test them, understand them,

(54:57):
be able to explain, be you know, I know that
if you've got a product that your whole team can explain,
it's a lot easier for them to have buy in.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
It's it's interesting. I was just looking at the chapter
on finding a co founder, and you just go, complementary
skills are needed, There's no there's a lot of work
to do, so sweat equity Partner's important to try and
find risk. Disposure of a solo founder is high because
the business hangs on one person, so all of a sudden,

(55:27):
you become a riskier business to invest in. And only
an invested co founder with an equity state in business
success will own issues. That's really important to you.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
You know.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
I've often say to people, if you can have a
co founder, they've got to think like a propriety, just
don't have in their so hears some shares, but you're
basically still an employee. You've got to give them the
agency and accountability, Yeah, the agency to think like an owner.
Not just being an owner, but think like an owner,
because if there had to be accountable for that too.
Like so, because you want them to every little thing

(55:59):
that would go wrong, you want them to hurt, it's
just like you do. But everything that goes right, you
want them to celebrate, just like you do.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Mark, I even think that having your team think like
an owner.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Yeah, oh that's for me, that's critical. Yeah, you want
them to actually feel like this is their business.

Speaker 2 (56:16):
Absolutely, with a startup, you can give them shares. So
that's the whole point. So there's a chapter on equity
allocation and options and all of the things that really you.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
Got some structural things in there. Someone like you being
a chine A cant you know that stuff that's your
livelihood because a lot of people get to be confused
how does it all work?

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Absolutely, when I was a mentor at this sink called
start Mate, I still am. Actually I'm probably the longest
standing person there.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
That's that's one of the vcs, aren't it.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
Yeah. It started back in twenty nine or ten with
a guy called.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Is that Blackbird?

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Yeah, Rick Baker and Nicki Chavrak a Blackbird and plus
their other partners. Amazing group. But originally Nicki Shavak started
start Mate, which was a bunch of tech founders, and
I became one of their first ten mentors. And yeah,
of course, because my background, every time there was a

(57:13):
problem like they go to the US, can't speak to
DK about how to set up in the US, or
don't speak to DK about your financial model, or there's
some flip up or tax issue, don't speak to me.
But I was going, I don't want to just talk
about tax, so let's talk about the product, Let's talk
about these other things. So I always thought I'm the
dumbest person in the room, but I was determined not
to be. So I just focused and focused and focused

(57:35):
on trying to learn as much as I could. And
then because I met all these really cool people, I thought,
you know, like even back to people who were spinning
IP out of universities like Radiator Communications at Salt de Cisco.
Of course they invented Wi Fi and just smart people going.
This sort of ruined me for normal accounting to say,

(57:55):
I want to work with people that create something and
I want to help them sell it. Not just so
by selling it. You've got to build the systems. You've
got to build the team. You've got to build the
capital the create and capture value, price, get pricing right
and be able to scale it and hire the right
people and get them coming back and understanding the people

(58:17):
have got you there may not be the ones that
get you there. And so constantly being curious, you're evolving.
It doesn't stand still. Your company doesn't, your staff don't,
your customer certainly doesn't, as you've said, Mark, So you've
got to just get better at making narrow or missus
as I say, so, you constantly allocating capital in the

(58:37):
right direction because you're using these thinking models to help
you pick better bets, make better bet de risk things,
find out what people are buying, how they price. All
of that's part of the entrepreneur's journey.

Speaker 1 (58:52):
And it's hard to encapsulate that in a couple of
paragraphs in you in words, And I guess that's probably
why you sit down and wrote this book, because it
does say at the top it's a definitive guide to
entrepreneurship in building a company, I think it's a long
time since we needed A long time we've needed one
of these books, and well done, David Kenny, thanks very
much for coming on the mentor, and I hopefully I

(59:13):
can get you to sign this book, and I'll be
going through the chapters of myself because for me, I mean,
I've done one hundred times over, but I'm always like
to be reminded what it is I've already experienced in
the past, and sometimes it's easy to forget. By the way, absolutely,
I appreciate the whole point of putting in writing, putting
it in writing and people.

Speaker 2 (59:31):
I gave it to a lot of people as a friend,
saying you're one of the best exponents of marketing or whatever,
and they've said, well, this is really good because it's
reminded me of things I've forgotten. But it's also written
in a way that is for a novice but also
an expert by structuring it in a question based format.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
Structured is the word like nice structure.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Thanks David, Thanks so much. Mark