July 1, 2025 • 33 mins
In this bonus episode, Sally interviews Gary Jubelin, one of Australia's most respected detectives, about her mother's unsolved disappearance. They discuss the importance of connecting key people and events in her mother's final days. Sally also asks Gary for his take on the coroner's findings, tendencies in Rick Blum's behavior, and whether police should dig deeper into his past.
Don't miss out on these fascinating insights and advice from one of Australia's top detectives. Listen to the full episode now!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apoge Production, So welcome to this bonus episode of The
Missing Matter.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I was quite.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Fortunate to be able to fly down to Sydney and
actually meet with retired Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jubilin, who
is one of Australia's most respected and decorated homicide investigators.
He's had an amazing thirty four year career with New
South Wales Police and Gary and I sat and had
a chat. I had quite a few things I wanted
(00:40):
to ask him.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And what were those key things from Gary?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Well, look, there was a couple of things that you
and I have found while we've been on this journey.
So we're going to talk about the importance of from
an investigative point of view, the importance of us connecting
Rick Blum and my mum together overseas, and this this
(01:05):
is what happens as we're going And this is why
this podcast is so important, because we have people keeping
on contacting us and saying, hey, I knew this, and
I was here at this time and I can tell
you this, and there's some information that has come forward
that is I feel quite important and I wanted to
check that with Gary.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So Janet Oldenberg for example, she.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Told me, I'm I'm not going to do any spoilers here,
but she told me something that she wished that she'd
told the police after she sort of thought about it,
and I felt like she was beating herself up a
little bit at the time she was telling me, which
was at Christmas time last year, I took her out
for lunch and she said, I probably should have told
the police this, But I said to her, it's very
difficult when the police are asking you questions because you
(01:52):
technically just answer the question that you are being asked
by them. You're not sort of moving forward and telling
them and information that they're particularly not asking for. And
this happened as well with Galaane. You and I in
Belgium were sitting having tea and a beautiful spread of
food put on by Galaane's family, and she popped a
(02:14):
bombshell for us. So we talk about that with Gary
and I just wanted to ask if he felt that
this is important information for the investigative team that are
working on my mom's case. And you also appeared on
an episode of his podcast, which was Eye Catch Killers.
He and I chatted for a very long time. I
(02:35):
think we ended up probably five hours wow of chat.
So for me personally meeting him, like I have followed
him for a long time, I have huge respect for him,
and in a way I was always like, I wish
I just need the passion that he showed in a
lot of his cases that I really just felt like
I needed someone to just give me that and have
(02:56):
that passion to help me find the answers to mum. Obviously,
one of the big cases that he had was with
Fay and Mark Levison and in solving essentially their son
Matthew Levison, who was missing for ten years and they
ended up finding him through his investigations and his push
(03:17):
and you know, he told me about things like that
and we do talk about that in his episode, and
about how important it is just to keep pushing. He said,
even though he was getting told that's not going to
be possible and that you can't do that, He's encouraged
me to keep going and say, you keep pushing and
you keep doing what you're doing. And you know, it
was a great privilege for me to meet him and
(03:38):
for him to give me the time that he did
to help me with understanding from you know, and he
helped me and guided me a little bit too with
some language that I'm unsure about because, as I said before,
there's no guidebook here, so he was able to answer
quite a few of those questions for me as well.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Thanks very much, Sally, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely. I guess the reason why I wanted to to you.
I've always looked at you as somebody who is just
really super passionate in the space of being a detective.
And obviously I followed your movements with William and with
Matthew Levison and some really big cases as well, and
I would like to say thank you to you for
(04:22):
your hard work and the efforts in those fields, because
we need people like you.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
To help us.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Let's very much appreciate it, and yeah, it's always a
team effort with it, but yeah, I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Your kind and we wanted to bring you into our
podcasts The Missing Matter because we've got some interesting topics
that we're talking about and we wanted to sort of
get your expertise if you.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Like, happy to help. And can I just say up front,
I know what you've been through with the disappearance of
your mother and how hard you've worked to get answers,
and there's been an inquest that revealed something, but not
a lot of things that you had hoped that would
come out. And now you're still continuing a campaign on
(05:09):
the podcast that brings me here. Now, I think it's
so important the work that you're doing and showing people
what can be done if you don't take no for
an answer.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, well, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I think there's people out there that probably don't like
the fact that I don't take care.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You're not going to be popular. I'm just saying some
people might find the inspiration.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, well, and you know what, I think it's an
important part of the journey. And I think for me,
I have learned so much. I have met some amazing humans,
and during my journey to find my mum, I have
been through a lot, and as I said, I've met
some amazing people. And some of those people have offered
me some really sound advice and given me some care
(05:50):
and concern.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And some people just give me a hug.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Some people just say, you know, I really care about you,
and they they remember my mum. And I think one
of the biggest things that's come out of this for
me is my mum was such a taboo subject. I
wasn't allowed to talk about her to my grandmother, or
to her sisters, or you know, my children. I was
sort of careful about talking about it with them because
I didn't want to bring a trauma onto them unnecessarily
(06:15):
or extra on top of what it already is. Right,
they go to Grandparents' Day at school, they don't have
their grandparents coming. There's always been a bit of a cloud.
And one of the most recent things, I guess, if
I bring it in now, is Mother's Day was only
what a week and a half ago, and my birthday
(06:35):
is the twelfth of May, so my birthday was actually
the day after Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And a few years.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Ago my kids actually said to me that they were
really struggling to celebrate me on Mother's Day because I
was always quite sad and I just couldn't pull myself
out of it. I just kept I don't know, I
felt like I couldn't be happy on Mother's Day because
my mom wasn't there, and I kept thinking about her.
And it was only a few years ago that I
actually just sat up and listened to what the kids
(07:01):
had said to me, and I thought, you know, what
I actually do deserve to be celebrated as their mum.
I love being their mum and I love that space
in my world. And I know my mum would actually
want me to be happy and want me to be
celebrating and not be thinking of sad things. So I've
really pulled it together if I can say that, the
kids have told me I'm doing better, you know, just
(07:22):
to try to be happier and have a better time
with them and celebrate the time.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, I look at it, and this is from my
experience dealing with people that have lost loved ones and disappearances,
not having answers the type of thing that you've been
going through. It's hard because some people don't want to
talk about it because you've said taboo subject. That's almost
like it's too confronting. People don't know how to say
as simple and some people I know the loss of
(07:49):
loved ones said the most meaningful thing someone just comes
up to them and gives them a hug and says,
this is stuffed, as simple as that and walks away.
But what you've been through in the campaign, it keeps
it in the forefront the whole time. But can I
just make this comment the fact that we're sitting here,
we're talking about your mom. We've talked about your mom.
(08:09):
People know about your mom. Your mom's living on in
people's memories because of the work you've done, and you
should sort of focus on that on Mother's Day. Not
that I'm a good one to give.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Life advice, but that's a good Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
The fact that you're working so hard tells me how
much your mum was loved.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So anyway, let me get into some questions and see
what you think. I've never done this before. I've never
asked questions on a podcast before. I just wanted to
say the Currenter did place my mom and Rick Blum
together overseas at some point in the UK in her findings.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now, there's no firm information that has been.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Found to date to link Rick Blum to my mum
on her overseas trip that she went on in June
nineteen ninety seven. This is important as their dates aligne
both their departure date and their return to Australia.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I found that very interesting. It was two days apart
in the general travel area were very similar. Huge coincidence.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now, Rick Blum denies traveling with my mum. Just for
the record, but one aspect that we wanted to confirm
was my mum in Japan. So what we know is
that my mum actually wrote to me on notepaper from
Hotel on Nico in Narrita. She also posted it in
the envelope from the hotel, but she didn't post it
(09:33):
until I think it was ten days later, eight days
later in the UK from tom Bridge. So what I've
explained before with Interpol, Interpol only capture where you first land.
So if you're going to the UK for a holiday
and you're going via Singapore, they'll only capture the Singapore
stop over, they won't capture that you're going to England.
(09:57):
So we had a similar problem with mum because she
flew on Korean Air and she stopped in South Korea
as her first stop. I did some research and found
out speaking to Korean Air giving them the same flight
number which is still current today, and they said that
back in nineteen ninety seven, it was the cheapest way
for people to get to Tokyo or Japan via South
(10:20):
Korea and they were offering this free transfer service with
their ticket. Joanie and I told you we went on
a trip on a research trip to try and find
some information. One of the key things about going to Japan.
There are a couple that I'll focus on. This one
with you, Gary is did she arrive in Japan or not?
So just for clarification, when Rick Blum was interviewed by police,
(10:45):
he actually was asked what hotel did you stay in
when you went to Japan, and he just very quickly
replied with Hotel Niko Narrita and apparently it was his
common denominator when he went overseas. Now, Janie and I
stayed there. It's a super cheap hotel. I think we
paid I don't know, one hundred and twenty dollars a
night or something, so pretty cheap. It's got a free
bus shuttle that comes from the airport straight over and
(11:08):
offering free breakfast back in that time, is what mister
Blum said on the stand. So what we're trying to
achieve is going to Japan. We were told by homicide
detectives that they did look into it, and that Immigration
had told them that they didn't have any records, only
kept record seven years. So we rock up and we
(11:29):
actually went to the Immigration department ourselves in person in Tokyo.
I took my cousin, Simon and his son came along
and his son speaks fluent Japanese and English, so he
was our interpreter. And we sat down at the desk
and it was very triggering for me, actually, because the
man talking to us kept laughing as his talking, and
(11:51):
it was you know how some people nervously laugh when
they're talking. And I was sitting there going, I don't
know how to feel about his response and how he's
reacting here. But in a nutshell, he told me that
my grant of probate, which I had worked really hard
to get after the inquest finding, yeah, jump through hoops
(12:13):
to get the death certificate, mum changing her name to
Floribella Ramckel and having only her passport in the name
of Florabella Ramckel, but everything else was in Marion Bart.
That was a nightmare, Like the whole changing of the name.
I'm sure it was done on purpose, just to make
me lose my mind. But we rock up and he
says to us, really sorry, but those documents don't count
(12:37):
in Japan, okay, And it goes they only count in Australia,
and I was like, surely not. So I was having
a moment and that time going. I've just worked really
hard to get these documents. We've just flown to Japan
to come and see you in person to check out
whether we can access those files.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And he said, no, you can't, And.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He pretty much said to me that I would have
to engage and pay for a lawyer in Japan, a
Japanese lawyer, to be able to access that information. In
doing so, we sat there and confirmed with him through
our interpreter that yes, they do hold the records, and
they do go back until the seventies, so we know
(13:17):
for a fact that there are records sitting there in Japan.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I just can't actual say the boarding record of your
mum card through Core.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I think that's really important because we have not
been at this point been able to determine whether Mum
did go to Japan or not, and if there is
an incoming passenger card with her name on it to
say that she did land in Japan. And she's written
to me on Hotel Niko, and I read a notepad
and Rick Blum has said that he stayed at that
hotel that links them together.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption. You're probably wondering
homicide have said or police have said that the records
weren't available because they only keep them for seven years. Yeah,
if you've uncovered that information, this is the way I
deal with it. I'd pass that information on to the police,
the ones that have got carriage of your mum's investigation now,
(14:07):
and it might be a situation that they're going to
apply through interpoll. But you'd be looking at now that
your mum's declared deceased, you're looking at a murder investigation
which carries some clout or suspected murder investigation, and obtain
the records. What weight would that put on a brief
of evidence. Well, it all adds to the circumstances. I'm
(14:30):
not familiar with all the evidence available, but for the
sake of a report, I'd probably suggest you pass that
information on because they might have been genuine. A lot
of our records here only retain for seven years. But
if you've got information to the country, I'd pass that
information onto police and hopefully they'll follow it up.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
And what I've learned through this journey, and I pretty
much learned it through JOONI, is that archives do hold records.
So even though some departments. You would know this as well.
The departments don't hold the records anymore, but they actually
do go and sit behind that archive.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Wall, which I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So we've been able to pull files out from the
sixties and seventies because they fall into the open access period, right,
So you can't go and get records sometimes within the
twenty year period, like there's still there's a block on that.
And that's kind of like, even though I've always said
it's been difficult to access the information because of the
(15:27):
length of time, the length of time in that case
actually helped because it was open and access was available
to us. So Joany's been able to access a huge
amount of information based on just that alone coming out.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But I think on that issue of the letter on
the hotel letterhead that you received, the coroner considered four options,
if I remember from reading of the coroner's finding, its
four options and discounted too and the possibility of to others,
either your mother was over there in takeout at the time,
(16:00):
or he took the notepad from the hotel and the
letter was written from another Like.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I think there was a lot in there because
we were sort of feeding that into the narrative, going Okay,
what do we think this?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Do we think that?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And I think at the end of the findings she
came to the conclusion that Mum didn't go to Japan
and she met with Rick Blum over in the UK
somewhere without being known. I mean, there is another bit
of information, and this is where great people come into it. Again.
We had a lady named Christina who was living over
in the UK who did a huge amount of work
(16:32):
as well, and she found a guy over.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
There who looks at stamping of mail.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So when you look at the postcards from Mum and
the letter, there's all these little tiny blue lines that
actually go across the top of the stamp, and so
he was able to So I had to go to
the photoshop, get them scanned properly and really really high
reds and copied and then send them back to Christina.
She then sent them on too this guy, and he
was able to look at those dots and identify exactly
(17:03):
where Mum posted that letter and what date and whether
it was am or PM. So we have another situation
where we have a postcard, we know where it was
posted from. We also know that there was a coin
auction in the same backyard as that where that letter
was posted the same weekend that mum posted it. This
(17:24):
is what happens when time flows on right. So I
feel that we finished the inquest, that was done and dusted,
but people are still living and people are still living
this trauma, not just me, but some of the other
people that we had as witnesses who came on. There
is a lady who lives in Brisbane and I went
(17:45):
over with Channel seven actually and we did an interview
for TV a couple of years ago and since then.
When I went to her house that time with Allison,
I just said to her, oh, here's my number. Can
I grab your number? Let's keep in touch and we
have We've I go and pick her up. I take
her out for coffee, we'll go and have breakfast, and
sometimes we have lunch. And she's lovely and such a soft,
(18:07):
beautiful human. Her name is Janet, and I took her
out for lunch at Christmas time last year and we
were sitting there and she was telling me about her
health and things that were happening in her world at
the moment. But she said, I did think of something
that I probably should have told the police that I didn't.
I said, oh, what was that and she said, well,
(18:29):
when we were in Bali together, being her and Rick Blum,
because they traveled together in nineteen ninety nine in the
December to Indonesia and then on to England. So that
has been confirmed and proven by records and outgoing and
incoming passenger cards and confirmed in the inquest. But she
(18:50):
said that she alleges that while they were in Bali,
Rick Blum made her write two letters to her family,
telling them that she didn't want anything to do with
them and that she was going to permanently live with
him overseas. She said that he commented that her handwriting
was slightly different on the second letter, and she said
(19:11):
that he kept both letters and they've never been seen again.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Right, what you're describing there, because they're separate people from
your mother. And I think from memory reading the Currenter's findings,
who was five or so women that mister Blum had
in his life that gave evidence at the inquest, you're
looking at tendency and coincidence evidence. Now, tendency and coincidence
evidence is strikingly similar facts. Just for Layman's point of view,
(19:38):
we might use it with a serial rapist or a
serial killer if there's a tendency and coincidence in the
way that the crimes committed. Where the sticking point if
you're looking from an investigative point of view, is tendency
and coincidence showing a pattern of behavior. I'm just speculating
on that, not the full details, but if it's showing
the pattern of behavior, the evidentiary weight that can be
(20:01):
placed on that, I'm not entirely sure because yes, we'll
talk hypothetically so we don't get ourselves into trouble. How
do you use that in your mum's case because your
mum is the only one that's disappeared, So there might
be legal argument, and I think the coroner or the
council assisting the coroner address that in part in the
findings at the inquest that although it relates to tendency
(20:23):
in coincidence evidence, whether the admissibility or weight that can
be placed on it depends on the nature of the
crime that might be. It's a very very complex legal situation,
but from an investigative point of view, sometimes I take
the complexity out and let's not worry about the case
law what that's telling me is there is a pattern
(20:44):
of behavior. Maybe there's another person around that might have
a piece of the puzzle that's missing in your mum's
disappearance that might be able to help. So, from an
investigative point of view, if you're asking me, would I
be interested in that if I was running this investigation,
most definitely, I'd be wanting to speak to women that
have been approached by the person in the same manner.
(21:07):
And it looks like I'm assuming because once the homicide
have got involved, these people have been put in the
brief of evidence to the coroner, so that gave the
coroner a pretty clear view of what happened. And I
surmising here but probably formed part of the view on
why the coroner was so scathing in some of the
comments made about the evidence of mister blum Well. I
(21:28):
suppose in that regards like moving forward or making progress
in the investigation, because I make the coroner referred it
to the unsolved homicide in the recommendations where it it's
been followed up, I'm assuming it has been that the
investigation remains open. You've gathered this information. Some people might
say stay out of the investigation. You'll wreck it by
(21:50):
doing these inquiries. Well, you've created the investigation by doing
the inquiry, so I just assure you on that. But
if you've got that information, I would pass it on
the police. The people that are in charge of the
investigation have to make the determination whether they're going to
follow it up. But if you've got that information, i'd
always encourage you to pass it on.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, well I have, Yeah, I have.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But this is all pretty new too, so we're sort
of rolling through it as we're going, and I have
let them know that information, so I'm always very open
about telling them and anything that's important we are feeding
back to them all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So rest assured I am. We are doing that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And look, well I won't say a disadvantage the fact
that I know Nigel Warren. I know him very well
because he was on my team. He's a decent person
and very very good detective. And yeah, I'm hoping, assuming
he's still in a position where he's got that control,
will do what needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, well, we can only hope. I understand. I understand
there are limits as to what they can do as well,
But you know, I'm not finished yet. Keep going, keep
going so okay, So with case matching and looking at
us the reportable incidents once travel movement records were gained.
(23:09):
We actually have records from the Department of Immigration that
were gained by New South Wales Police of Rick Blum
leaving the country fifteen times from the twenty third of
September nineteen eighty seven up until the ninth October two
thousand and eight. Should there be a curiosity about these
travel movements and considering the pattern above, the fact that
(23:32):
prior to my mum going missing in nineteen ninety seven,
there have been no other women reported to have interactions
with Reck Blum.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
In regards to worthwhile looking into your mum's case, I
think every avenue should be explored in your mum's case.
And yeah, if there's a line of inquiry if it
relates to and I'm taking from the words of the coroner,
so I want to be careful here. It's not me
forming the opinion. It's just the coroner has said that
in her opinion from an extensive cranial inquist city was
(24:02):
we're folding information had more knowledge. So if that's the
starting point from a detect this point of view, I
think it's prudent to follow up. Okay, if he's not
going to because people don't tell the truth in the
witness box, or we've hold information, it's prudent on the
police to follow up that information and find out what's
going on.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And So, in all your years as a detective, have
you ever stumbled across anybody that has had ten Australian
passports issued to them?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
No? No, I haven't. I haven't, And I've come across
some interesting and diverse range of people, But that many
aliases or ten passports issue, I'm confused how you can
get away with it in this dar and age.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We've all sort of looked at mum right as the
starting point, and we go forward from there, and we
have found a few women who have had dealings with
Rick Blum allegedly. Would you go backwards is probably what
we were sort of getting at, because and have a
look at any potential people pre nineteen ninety seven? Would
that be something that the detectives would be looking at,
(25:09):
because you gonna understand, I don't tell me what they're doing,
I don't know what they're and you would know well
that because you probably were doing the same thing. But
you know, I wonder if that is something that is
of interest to see if there's any past behavior.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, well, Sally, it's appropriate that they don't tell you
everything because they'll be protecting the integrity of the investigation.
But having said that, given the circumstances and the background
to this, I think there's a degree of trust they
could place in you and telling you if I was
involved in the investigation, given the fact without you there
wouldn't be an investigation. Let's be realistic. I'm confident enough
(25:45):
to say that it's only because of the campaigning and
the agitation that you'll cause that there has been an investigation.
So I think you've earned a degree of trust going
back that far. Yeah, resourcing, and I cringe every time
I say resourcing in policing, But it's a reality. It's
not infinite what happened prior to ninety seven. Yes, I'm
(26:06):
interested in what was the lead up to it, But
you might have to make a decision, well, what can
we prove if we're investigating this, Because a stripeforce will
have a specific terms of reference, so that I'm anticipating
the terms of reference for your mum's disappearance will be
to investigate the circumstances surrounding the suspicious disappearance of your mother.
(26:26):
That's terms of reference. We can't go too far out,
so you can't investigate fraud matters from the nineteen sixties
or different things like that. But yes, ideal world, you
would look up a lead up to it with the
view of seeing if it's going to uncover that little
piece of evidence that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
What's your opinion when the coroner puts a case with
the unsolved homicide team. So Joanie and I talk about
this and we say, well, if she was just missing,
and I don't say just in that sense the word,
but if she's missing, she would go back to the
missing person's unit. But because she's put her with unsolved homicide,
(27:09):
is she referring to her as being murdered or foul play?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
The fact that it's gone to unsolved homicide is suggestive
of the fact that there's a warrants someone looking at
it for a potential homicide. Now that might play out
to be the fact, but the fact that it's gone
the homicide, they'll be looking at it as a potential homicide.
If it was missing person, it's literally someone that's wandered.
(27:33):
Often no suspicious circumstances, we just can't find them. That
goes into the category of missing person. The fact that
it's been referred to unsolved homicide. The coroner is hoping
that the homicide squad would be following that up.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
After everything I've gone through in almost twenty eight years.
So next month it will be twenty eight years since
Mum left on that trip of a lifetime and never
came back. I've been living with a missing person for
a long time. It does frustrate me that I still
hear today police coming on the t and someone's gone missing,
and they say, we're not treating it as suspicious, and
(28:09):
they say it pretty quick, like the out of the gates,
and it's you know, I think Samantha Murphy. You probably know,
like from Victoria. That was another big case that had
a lot of media behind it. And if my memory
serves me correctly, I do believe they said they're not
treating it as suspicious initially.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And then they do.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And I've been on this bandwagon Gary where I've been saying,
start at suspicious and work backwards from there. If you
find the person in twenty four hours, we'll pad on
the back, great job, but it worries me that, you know,
if they hold off and they make the assumption that
it's not suspicious. And there's just been too many cases
in the mix that I've come across so over the
(28:50):
last you know, five or six years, where they say
it and then it turns out that there's been foul play,
or they've been found deceased and murdered and things like that.
They're losing that important part of time where they've got
CCTV footage and they've got phone pinging on towers, all
the data that can actually help the people. What's your
thoughts and theories on that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
My thoughts and I'm very strong on this and stem
from my time in homicide where mentals very specifically told
me when we get called to a case that you
treat it as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. That's
homicide one O one, and time and time again, I
see mistakes made because people make the wrong assumptions. We
(29:33):
get notified about death, treat it as a potential homicide
until you can prove otherwise. Now that's a safeguard. I
suggest missing persons should be the same thing. Common sense
comes into play but when it becomes subjective, lazy people
can make decisions. So I'm about to knock off on
(29:55):
the shift. I really don't want to take this report
at this time. Let's come back tomorrow. If the person
hasn't returned, maybe report that. Then I say this, and
I've said that very publicly, that there's this perception someone's
got to be missing before twenty four hours before police
can take a report. Bullshit. I can't make it anything
(30:15):
stronger than that. If for circumstances in what's reported there's concern,
you can drop everything and the priority could be given
to finding the person that's disappeared. So when you hear
the police talk about there's nothing suspicious, quite often you
hear that when there's been a situation where it's clearly
(30:35):
and i'm talking murder here, clearly a suicide, and they're
informing the public that there's nothing to worry about here.
We haven't got an offender on the loose. When a
missing person is reported, there going there's no suspicious circumstances
at this stage. I think a lot is lost that
we don't jump on those cases right from the start.
(30:57):
And I look at your mother's disappearance, that's just a
benchmark for what could be done wrong from the start.
There are so many quiries that could have been carried
out in the initial stages, and we probably wouldn't be
sitting here having this conversation. So I cautioned police too,
don't make assumptions you don't know. William Tyrrell is a
(31:17):
point in question. When he disappeared, it was thought that
William had wandered off. I think we're all now confidence
saying that there was human intervention in William's disappearance. But
for the first couple of hours or the first early period,
it was a little boy loss, which should be a priority.
But look where we are now, ten years down the track,
(31:40):
and that case still hasn't been solved. So I think
from your experience and from being on the other side,
and my experience as a police officer, and what I
learned from very experienced police officers, don't make assumptions and
treat things as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. And
that's just a safety net that if you operate that way,
(32:01):
problems like occurred with your mother don't occur.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, I think that's really good advice and I really
hope that being able to voice it.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
It's not seen as a negative.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It's seen as something to work forward in this space
and help other people. And that goes for everybody, like
even family. Don't make assumptions. Don't assume until you know
facts because assuming Actually, my mum actually always used to say,
and I might finish off with saying that you know,
never assume, because it makes an ass out of you.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
And me, I reckon that's a probably good good advice.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm
going to stop talking because I'm going to lose my voice.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Well, I just I just want to say it's a
privilege just sitting down having a chat with you. And
I'm mindful of the work that you've done and the
weight that you've carried trying to get justice for your mum,
and I hope all the success. And I can assure
you're inspiring people and you are making a difference. And
if you don't make a loud enough noise, people aren't
going to listen, and you've made them listen, and there's
(33:02):
been progress. Haven't got it to you wanted, but keep
up the good work.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Privilege, Thank you, and thank you for having me in
your space too.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Cheers,
Apoge Production, So welcome to this bonus episode of The
Missing Matter.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
I was quite.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Fortunate to be able to fly down to Sydney and
actually meet with retired Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jubilin, who
is one of Australia's most respected and decorated homicide investigators.
He's had an amazing thirty four year career with New
South Wales Police and Gary and I sat and had
a chat. I had quite a few things I wanted
(00:40):
to ask him.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And what were those key things from Gary?
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Well, look, there was a couple of things that you
and I have found while we've been on this journey.
So we're going to talk about the importance of from
an investigative point of view, the importance of us connecting
Rick Blum and my mum together overseas, and this this
(01:05):
is what happens as we're going And this is why
this podcast is so important, because we have people keeping
on contacting us and saying, hey, I knew this, and
I was here at this time and I can tell
you this, and there's some information that has come forward
that is I feel quite important and I wanted to
check that with Gary.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
So Janet Oldenberg for example, she.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Told me, I'm I'm not going to do any spoilers here,
but she told me something that she wished that she'd
told the police after she sort of thought about it,
and I felt like she was beating herself up a
little bit at the time she was telling me, which
was at Christmas time last year, I took her out
for lunch and she said, I probably should have told
the police this, But I said to her, it's very
difficult when the police are asking you questions because you
(01:52):
technically just answer the question that you are being asked
by them. You're not sort of moving forward and telling
them and information that they're particularly not asking for. And
this happened as well with Galaane. You and I in
Belgium were sitting having tea and a beautiful spread of
food put on by Galaane's family, and she popped a
(02:14):
bombshell for us. So we talk about that with Gary
and I just wanted to ask if he felt that
this is important information for the investigative team that are
working on my mom's case. And you also appeared on
an episode of his podcast, which was Eye Catch Killers.
He and I chatted for a very long time. I
(02:35):
think we ended up probably five hours wow of chat.
So for me personally meeting him, like I have followed
him for a long time, I have huge respect for him,
and in a way I was always like, I wish
I just need the passion that he showed in a
lot of his cases that I really just felt like
I needed someone to just give me that and have
(02:56):
that passion to help me find the answers to mum. Obviously,
one of the big cases that he had was with
Fay and Mark Levison and in solving essentially their son
Matthew Levison, who was missing for ten years and they
ended up finding him through his investigations and his push
(03:17):
and you know, he told me about things like that
and we do talk about that in his episode, and
about how important it is just to keep pushing. He said,
even though he was getting told that's not going to
be possible and that you can't do that, He's encouraged
me to keep going and say, you keep pushing and
you keep doing what you're doing. And you know, it
was a great privilege for me to meet him and
(03:38):
for him to give me the time that he did
to help me with understanding from you know, and he
helped me and guided me a little bit too with
some language that I'm unsure about because, as I said before,
there's no guidebook here, so he was able to answer
quite a few of those questions for me as well.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
Thanks very much, Sally, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Absolutely. I guess the reason why I wanted to to you.
I've always looked at you as somebody who is just
really super passionate in the space of being a detective.
And obviously I followed your movements with William and with
Matthew Levison and some really big cases as well, and
I would like to say thank you to you for
(04:22):
your hard work and the efforts in those fields, because
we need people like you.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
To help us.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Let's very much appreciate it, and yeah, it's always a
team effort with it, but yeah, I appreciate.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Your kind and we wanted to bring you into our
podcasts The Missing Matter because we've got some interesting topics
that we're talking about and we wanted to sort of
get your expertise if you.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
Like, happy to help. And can I just say up front,
I know what you've been through with the disappearance of
your mother and how hard you've worked to get answers,
and there's been an inquest that revealed something, but not
a lot of things that you had hoped that would
come out. And now you're still continuing a campaign on
(05:09):
the podcast that brings me here. Now, I think it's
so important the work that you're doing and showing people
what can be done if you don't take no for
an answer.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Yeah, well, definitely.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
I think there's people out there that probably don't like
the fact that I don't take care.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You're not going to be popular. I'm just saying some
people might find the inspiration.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Yeah, well, and you know what, I think it's an
important part of the journey. And I think for me,
I have learned so much. I have met some amazing humans,
and during my journey to find my mum, I have
been through a lot, and as I said, I've met
some amazing people. And some of those people have offered
me some really sound advice and given me some care
(05:50):
and concern.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And some people just give me a hug.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Some people just say, you know, I really care about you,
and they they remember my mum. And I think one
of the biggest things that's come out of this for
me is my mum was such a taboo subject. I
wasn't allowed to talk about her to my grandmother, or
to her sisters, or you know, my children. I was
sort of careful about talking about it with them because
I didn't want to bring a trauma onto them unnecessarily
(06:15):
or extra on top of what it already is. Right,
they go to Grandparents' Day at school, they don't have
their grandparents coming. There's always been a bit of a cloud.
And one of the most recent things, I guess, if
I bring it in now, is Mother's Day was only
what a week and a half ago, and my birthday
(06:35):
is the twelfth of May, so my birthday was actually
the day after Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
And a few years.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Ago my kids actually said to me that they were
really struggling to celebrate me on Mother's Day because I
was always quite sad and I just couldn't pull myself
out of it. I just kept I don't know, I
felt like I couldn't be happy on Mother's Day because
my mom wasn't there, and I kept thinking about her.
And it was only a few years ago that I
actually just sat up and listened to what the kids
(07:01):
had said to me, and I thought, you know, what
I actually do deserve to be celebrated as their mum.
I love being their mum and I love that space
in my world. And I know my mum would actually
want me to be happy and want me to be
celebrating and not be thinking of sad things. So I've
really pulled it together if I can say that, the
kids have told me I'm doing better, you know, just
(07:22):
to try to be happier and have a better time
with them and celebrate the time.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Yeah, I look at it, and this is from my
experience dealing with people that have lost loved ones and disappearances,
not having answers the type of thing that you've been
going through. It's hard because some people don't want to
talk about it because you've said taboo subject. That's almost
like it's too confronting. People don't know how to say
as simple and some people I know the loss of
(07:49):
loved ones said the most meaningful thing someone just comes
up to them and gives them a hug and says,
this is stuffed, as simple as that and walks away.
But what you've been through in the campaign, it keeps
it in the forefront the whole time. But can I
just make this comment the fact that we're sitting here,
we're talking about your mom. We've talked about your mom.
(08:09):
People know about your mom. Your mom's living on in
people's memories because of the work you've done, and you
should sort of focus on that on Mother's Day. Not
that I'm a good one to give.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Life advice, but that's a good Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
The fact that you're working so hard tells me how
much your mum was loved.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
So anyway, let me get into some questions and see
what you think. I've never done this before. I've never
asked questions on a podcast before. I just wanted to
say the Currenter did place my mom and Rick Blum
together overseas at some point in the UK in her findings.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Now, there's no firm information that has been.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Found to date to link Rick Blum to my mum
on her overseas trip that she went on in June
nineteen ninety seven. This is important as their dates aligne
both their departure date and their return to Australia.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
I found that very interesting. It was two days apart
in the general travel area were very similar. Huge coincidence.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Now, Rick Blum denies traveling with my mum. Just for
the record, but one aspect that we wanted to confirm
was my mum in Japan. So what we know is
that my mum actually wrote to me on notepaper from
Hotel on Nico in Narrita. She also posted it in
the envelope from the hotel, but she didn't post it
(09:33):
until I think it was ten days later, eight days
later in the UK from tom Bridge. So what I've
explained before with Interpol, Interpol only capture where you first land.
So if you're going to the UK for a holiday
and you're going via Singapore, they'll only capture the Singapore
stop over, they won't capture that you're going to England.
(09:57):
So we had a similar problem with mum because she
flew on Korean Air and she stopped in South Korea
as her first stop. I did some research and found
out speaking to Korean Air giving them the same flight
number which is still current today, and they said that
back in nineteen ninety seven, it was the cheapest way
for people to get to Tokyo or Japan via South
(10:20):
Korea and they were offering this free transfer service with
their ticket. Joanie and I told you we went on
a trip on a research trip to try and find
some information. One of the key things about going to Japan.
There are a couple that I'll focus on. This one
with you, Gary is did she arrive in Japan or not?
So just for clarification, when Rick Blum was interviewed by police,
(10:45):
he actually was asked what hotel did you stay in
when you went to Japan, and he just very quickly
replied with Hotel Niko Narrita and apparently it was his
common denominator when he went overseas. Now, Janie and I
stayed there. It's a super cheap hotel. I think we
paid I don't know, one hundred and twenty dollars a
night or something, so pretty cheap. It's got a free
bus shuttle that comes from the airport straight over and
(11:08):
offering free breakfast back in that time, is what mister
Blum said on the stand. So what we're trying to
achieve is going to Japan. We were told by homicide
detectives that they did look into it, and that Immigration
had told them that they didn't have any records, only
kept record seven years. So we rock up and we
(11:29):
actually went to the Immigration department ourselves in person in Tokyo.
I took my cousin, Simon and his son came along
and his son speaks fluent Japanese and English, so he
was our interpreter. And we sat down at the desk
and it was very triggering for me, actually, because the
man talking to us kept laughing as his talking, and
(11:51):
it was you know how some people nervously laugh when
they're talking. And I was sitting there going, I don't
know how to feel about his response and how he's
reacting here. But in a nutshell, he told me that
my grant of probate, which I had worked really hard
to get after the inquest finding, yeah, jump through hoops
(12:13):
to get the death certificate, mum changing her name to
Floribella Ramckel and having only her passport in the name
of Florabella Ramckel, but everything else was in Marion Bart.
That was a nightmare, Like the whole changing of the name.
I'm sure it was done on purpose, just to make
me lose my mind. But we rock up and he
says to us, really sorry, but those documents don't count
(12:37):
in Japan, okay, And it goes they only count in Australia,
and I was like, surely not. So I was having
a moment and that time going. I've just worked really
hard to get these documents. We've just flown to Japan
to come and see you in person to check out
whether we can access those files.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
And he said, no, you can't, And.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
He pretty much said to me that I would have
to engage and pay for a lawyer in Japan, a
Japanese lawyer, to be able to access that information. In
doing so, we sat there and confirmed with him through
our interpreter that yes, they do hold the records, and
they do go back until the seventies, so we know
(13:17):
for a fact that there are records sitting there in Japan.
Speaker 3 (13:20):
I just can't actual say the boarding record of your
mum card through Core.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I think that's really important because we have not
been at this point been able to determine whether Mum
did go to Japan or not, and if there is
an incoming passenger card with her name on it to
say that she did land in Japan. And she's written
to me on Hotel Niko, and I read a notepad
and Rick Blum has said that he stayed at that
hotel that links them together.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption. You're probably wondering
homicide have said or police have said that the records
weren't available because they only keep them for seven years. Yeah,
if you've uncovered that information, this is the way I
deal with it. I'd pass that information on to the police,
the ones that have got carriage of your mum's investigation now,
(14:07):
and it might be a situation that they're going to
apply through interpoll. But you'd be looking at now that
your mum's declared deceased, you're looking at a murder investigation
which carries some clout or suspected murder investigation, and obtain
the records. What weight would that put on a brief
of evidence. Well, it all adds to the circumstances. I'm
(14:30):
not familiar with all the evidence available, but for the
sake of a report, I'd probably suggest you pass that
information on because they might have been genuine. A lot
of our records here only retain for seven years. But
if you've got information to the country, I'd pass that
information onto police and hopefully they'll follow it up.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
And what I've learned through this journey, and I pretty
much learned it through JOONI, is that archives do hold records.
So even though some departments. You would know this as well.
The departments don't hold the records anymore, but they actually
do go and sit behind that archive.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Wall, which I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
So we've been able to pull files out from the
sixties and seventies because they fall into the open access period, right,
So you can't go and get records sometimes within the
twenty year period, like there's still there's a block on that.
And that's kind of like, even though I've always said
it's been difficult to access the information because of the
(15:27):
length of time, the length of time in that case
actually helped because it was open and access was available
to us. So Joany's been able to access a huge
amount of information based on just that alone coming out.
Speaker 3 (15:39):
But I think on that issue of the letter on
the hotel letterhead that you received, the coroner considered four options,
if I remember from reading of the coroner's finding, its
four options and discounted too and the possibility of to others,
either your mother was over there in takeout at the time,
(16:00):
or he took the notepad from the hotel and the
letter was written from another Like.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Yeah, I think there was a lot in there because
we were sort of feeding that into the narrative, going Okay,
what do we think this?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Do we think that?
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And I think at the end of the findings she
came to the conclusion that Mum didn't go to Japan
and she met with Rick Blum over in the UK
somewhere without being known. I mean, there is another bit
of information, and this is where great people come into it. Again.
We had a lady named Christina who was living over
in the UK who did a huge amount of work
(16:32):
as well, and she found a guy over.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
There who looks at stamping of mail.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
So when you look at the postcards from Mum and
the letter, there's all these little tiny blue lines that
actually go across the top of the stamp, and so
he was able to So I had to go to
the photoshop, get them scanned properly and really really high
reds and copied and then send them back to Christina.
She then sent them on too this guy, and he
was able to look at those dots and identify exactly
(17:03):
where Mum posted that letter and what date and whether
it was am or PM. So we have another situation
where we have a postcard, we know where it was
posted from. We also know that there was a coin
auction in the same backyard as that where that letter
was posted the same weekend that mum posted it. This
(17:24):
is what happens when time flows on right. So I
feel that we finished the inquest, that was done and dusted,
but people are still living and people are still living
this trauma, not just me, but some of the other
people that we had as witnesses who came on. There
is a lady who lives in Brisbane and I went
(17:45):
over with Channel seven actually and we did an interview
for TV a couple of years ago and since then.
When I went to her house that time with Allison,
I just said to her, oh, here's my number. Can
I grab your number? Let's keep in touch and we
have We've I go and pick her up. I take
her out for coffee, we'll go and have breakfast, and
sometimes we have lunch. And she's lovely and such a soft,
(18:07):
beautiful human. Her name is Janet, and I took her
out for lunch at Christmas time last year and we
were sitting there and she was telling me about her
health and things that were happening in her world at
the moment. But she said, I did think of something
that I probably should have told the police that I didn't.
I said, oh, what was that and she said, well,
(18:29):
when we were in Bali together, being her and Rick Blum,
because they traveled together in nineteen ninety nine in the
December to Indonesia and then on to England. So that
has been confirmed and proven by records and outgoing and
incoming passenger cards and confirmed in the inquest. But she
(18:50):
said that she alleges that while they were in Bali,
Rick Blum made her write two letters to her family,
telling them that she didn't want anything to do with
them and that she was going to permanently live with
him overseas. She said that he commented that her handwriting
was slightly different on the second letter, and she said
(19:11):
that he kept both letters and they've never been seen again.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Right, what you're describing there, because they're separate people from
your mother. And I think from memory reading the Currenter's findings,
who was five or so women that mister Blum had
in his life that gave evidence at the inquest, you're
looking at tendency and coincidence evidence. Now, tendency and coincidence
evidence is strikingly similar facts. Just for Layman's point of view,
(19:38):
we might use it with a serial rapist or a
serial killer if there's a tendency and coincidence in the
way that the crimes committed. Where the sticking point if
you're looking from an investigative point of view, is tendency
and coincidence showing a pattern of behavior. I'm just speculating
on that, not the full details, but if it's showing
the pattern of behavior, the evidentiary weight that can be
(20:01):
placed on that, I'm not entirely sure because yes, we'll
talk hypothetically so we don't get ourselves into trouble. How
do you use that in your mum's case because your
mum is the only one that's disappeared, So there might
be legal argument, and I think the coroner or the
council assisting the coroner address that in part in the
findings at the inquest that although it relates to tendency
(20:23):
in coincidence evidence, whether the admissibility or weight that can
be placed on it depends on the nature of the
crime that might be. It's a very very complex legal situation,
but from an investigative point of view, sometimes I take
the complexity out and let's not worry about the case
law what that's telling me is there is a pattern
(20:44):
of behavior. Maybe there's another person around that might have
a piece of the puzzle that's missing in your mum's
disappearance that might be able to help. So, from an
investigative point of view, if you're asking me, would I
be interested in that if I was running this investigation,
most definitely, I'd be wanting to speak to women that
have been approached by the person in the same manner.
(21:07):
And it looks like I'm assuming because once the homicide
have got involved, these people have been put in the
brief of evidence to the coroner, so that gave the
coroner a pretty clear view of what happened. And I
surmising here but probably formed part of the view on
why the coroner was so scathing in some of the
comments made about the evidence of mister blum Well. I
(21:28):
suppose in that regards like moving forward or making progress
in the investigation, because I make the coroner referred it
to the unsolved homicide in the recommendations where it it's
been followed up, I'm assuming it has been that the
investigation remains open. You've gathered this information. Some people might
say stay out of the investigation. You'll wreck it by
(21:50):
doing these inquiries. Well, you've created the investigation by doing
the inquiry, so I just assure you on that. But
if you've got that information, I would pass it on
the police. The people that are in charge of the
investigation have to make the determination whether they're going to
follow it up. But if you've got that information, i'd
always encourage you to pass it on.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, well I have, Yeah, I have.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
But this is all pretty new too, so we're sort
of rolling through it as we're going, and I have
let them know that information, so I'm always very open
about telling them and anything that's important we are feeding
back to them all the time.
Speaker 2 (22:28):
So rest assured I am. We are doing that.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And look, well I won't say a disadvantage the fact
that I know Nigel Warren. I know him very well
because he was on my team. He's a decent person
and very very good detective. And yeah, I'm hoping, assuming
he's still in a position where he's got that control,
will do what needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, well, we can only hope. I understand. I understand
there are limits as to what they can do as well,
But you know, I'm not finished yet. Keep going, keep
going so okay, So with case matching and looking at
us the reportable incidents once travel movement records were gained.
(23:09):
We actually have records from the Department of Immigration that
were gained by New South Wales Police of Rick Blum
leaving the country fifteen times from the twenty third of
September nineteen eighty seven up until the ninth October two
thousand and eight. Should there be a curiosity about these
travel movements and considering the pattern above, the fact that
(23:32):
prior to my mum going missing in nineteen ninety seven,
there have been no other women reported to have interactions
with Reck Blum.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
In regards to worthwhile looking into your mum's case, I
think every avenue should be explored in your mum's case.
And yeah, if there's a line of inquiry if it
relates to and I'm taking from the words of the coroner,
so I want to be careful here. It's not me
forming the opinion. It's just the coroner has said that
in her opinion from an extensive cranial inquist city was
(24:02):
we're folding information had more knowledge. So if that's the
starting point from a detect this point of view, I
think it's prudent to follow up. Okay, if he's not
going to because people don't tell the truth in the
witness box, or we've hold information, it's prudent on the
police to follow up that information and find out what's
going on.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And So, in all your years as a detective, have
you ever stumbled across anybody that has had ten Australian
passports issued to them?
Speaker 3 (24:30):
No? No, I haven't. I haven't, And I've come across
some interesting and diverse range of people, But that many
aliases or ten passports issue, I'm confused how you can
get away with it in this dar and age.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
We've all sort of looked at mum right as the
starting point, and we go forward from there, and we
have found a few women who have had dealings with
Rick Blum allegedly. Would you go backwards is probably what
we were sort of getting at, because and have a
look at any potential people pre nineteen ninety seven? Would
that be something that the detectives would be looking at,
(25:09):
because you gonna understand, I don't tell me what they're doing,
I don't know what they're and you would know well
that because you probably were doing the same thing. But
you know, I wonder if that is something that is
of interest to see if there's any past behavior.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Yeah, well, Sally, it's appropriate that they don't tell you
everything because they'll be protecting the integrity of the investigation.
But having said that, given the circumstances and the background
to this, I think there's a degree of trust they
could place in you and telling you if I was
involved in the investigation, given the fact without you there
wouldn't be an investigation. Let's be realistic. I'm confident enough
(25:45):
to say that it's only because of the campaigning and
the agitation that you'll cause that there has been an investigation.
So I think you've earned a degree of trust going
back that far. Yeah, resourcing, and I cringe every time
I say resourcing in policing, But it's a reality. It's
not infinite what happened prior to ninety seven. Yes, I'm
(26:06):
interested in what was the lead up to it, But
you might have to make a decision, well, what can
we prove if we're investigating this, Because a stripeforce will
have a specific terms of reference, so that I'm anticipating
the terms of reference for your mum's disappearance will be
to investigate the circumstances surrounding the suspicious disappearance of your mother.
(26:26):
That's terms of reference. We can't go too far out,
so you can't investigate fraud matters from the nineteen sixties
or different things like that. But yes, ideal world, you
would look up a lead up to it with the
view of seeing if it's going to uncover that little
piece of evidence that you need.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
What's your opinion when the coroner puts a case with
the unsolved homicide team. So Joanie and I talk about
this and we say, well, if she was just missing,
and I don't say just in that sense the word,
but if she's missing, she would go back to the
missing person's unit. But because she's put her with unsolved homicide,
(27:09):
is she referring to her as being murdered or foul play?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
The fact that it's gone to unsolved homicide is suggestive
of the fact that there's a warrants someone looking at
it for a potential homicide. Now that might play out
to be the fact, but the fact that it's gone
the homicide, they'll be looking at it as a potential homicide.
If it was missing person, it's literally someone that's wandered.
(27:33):
Often no suspicious circumstances, we just can't find them. That
goes into the category of missing person. The fact that
it's been referred to unsolved homicide. The coroner is hoping
that the homicide squad would be following that up.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
After everything I've gone through in almost twenty eight years.
So next month it will be twenty eight years since
Mum left on that trip of a lifetime and never
came back. I've been living with a missing person for
a long time. It does frustrate me that I still
hear today police coming on the t and someone's gone missing,
and they say, we're not treating it as suspicious, and
(28:09):
they say it pretty quick, like the out of the gates,
and it's you know, I think Samantha Murphy. You probably know,
like from Victoria. That was another big case that had
a lot of media behind it. And if my memory
serves me correctly, I do believe they said they're not
treating it as suspicious initially.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And then they do.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And I've been on this bandwagon Gary where I've been saying,
start at suspicious and work backwards from there. If you
find the person in twenty four hours, we'll pad on
the back, great job, but it worries me that, you know,
if they hold off and they make the assumption that
it's not suspicious. And there's just been too many cases
in the mix that I've come across so over the
(28:50):
last you know, five or six years, where they say
it and then it turns out that there's been foul play,
or they've been found deceased and murdered and things like that.
They're losing that important part of time where they've got
CCTV footage and they've got phone pinging on towers, all
the data that can actually help the people. What's your
thoughts and theories on that.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
My thoughts and I'm very strong on this and stem
from my time in homicide where mentals very specifically told
me when we get called to a case that you
treat it as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. That's
homicide one O one, and time and time again, I
see mistakes made because people make the wrong assumptions. We
(29:33):
get notified about death, treat it as a potential homicide
until you can prove otherwise. Now that's a safeguard. I
suggest missing persons should be the same thing. Common sense
comes into play but when it becomes subjective, lazy people
can make decisions. So I'm about to knock off on
(29:55):
the shift. I really don't want to take this report
at this time. Let's come back tomorrow. If the person
hasn't returned, maybe report that. Then I say this, and
I've said that very publicly, that there's this perception someone's
got to be missing before twenty four hours before police
can take a report. Bullshit. I can't make it anything
(30:15):
stronger than that. If for circumstances in what's reported there's concern,
you can drop everything and the priority could be given
to finding the person that's disappeared. So when you hear
the police talk about there's nothing suspicious, quite often you
hear that when there's been a situation where it's clearly
(30:35):
and i'm talking murder here, clearly a suicide, and they're
informing the public that there's nothing to worry about here.
We haven't got an offender on the loose. When a
missing person is reported, there going there's no suspicious circumstances
at this stage. I think a lot is lost that
we don't jump on those cases right from the start.
(30:57):
And I look at your mother's disappearance, that's just a
benchmark for what could be done wrong from the start.
There are so many quiries that could have been carried
out in the initial stages, and we probably wouldn't be
sitting here having this conversation. So I cautioned police too,
don't make assumptions you don't know. William Tyrrell is a
(31:17):
point in question. When he disappeared, it was thought that
William had wandered off. I think we're all now confidence
saying that there was human intervention in William's disappearance. But
for the first couple of hours or the first early period,
it was a little boy loss, which should be a priority.
But look where we are now, ten years down the track,
(31:40):
and that case still hasn't been solved. So I think
from your experience and from being on the other side,
and my experience as a police officer, and what I
learned from very experienced police officers, don't make assumptions and
treat things as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. And
that's just a safety net that if you operate that way,
(32:01):
problems like occurred with your mother don't occur.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
Well, I think that's really good advice and I really
hope that being able to voice it.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
It's not seen as a negative.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
It's seen as something to work forward in this space
and help other people. And that goes for everybody, like
even family. Don't make assumptions. Don't assume until you know
facts because assuming Actually, my mum actually always used to say,
and I might finish off with saying that you know,
never assume, because it makes an ass out of you.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
And me, I reckon that's a probably good good advice.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm
going to stop talking because I'm going to lose my voice.
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Well, I just I just want to say it's a
privilege just sitting down having a chat with you. And
I'm mindful of the work that you've done and the
weight that you've carried trying to get justice for your mum,
and I hope all the success. And I can assure
you're inspiring people and you are making a difference. And
if you don't make a loud enough noise, people aren't
going to listen, and you've made them listen, and there's
(33:02):
been progress. Haven't got it to you wanted, but keep
up the good work.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Privilege, Thank you, and thank you for having me in
your space too.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Cheers,
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