August 31, 2025 • 58 mins
On Easter Sunday 2008, engineer and devoted dad Warren Meyer set out for a short, well-planned hike at Dom Dom Saddle. He never came home. In this episode, Warren’s wife Zee shares who he was, the day he vanished, and the search that followed. We examine early assumptions that shaped the investigation, the long path through the coroner’s process, and the quiet battles families face when someone goes missing.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Easter Sunday, two thousand and eight, Warren Meyer drives to
a place that looks harmless on the map, dom Dom Saddle,
a small roadside saddle and picnic pull out off the
Black Spur in the Yarrow Ranges. He's planning a short,
prepared hike before lunch with friends. Nothing ambitious, nothing reckless,
(00:34):
the kind of walk you take when you've done this
one hundred times before.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
He's methodical.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He has what he needs, GPS, maps, food and water.
He knows how to read the country and how to
read a day.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The plan is.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Simple, step off, stretch the legs, you back in time
to eat lunch with his wife and friends. He parks
at the saddle forest on both sides, tracks red into
the trees and out of sight. It's the kind of
bush that fools you from the road, friendly at the edges, complicated.
(01:13):
As soon as you step in, he locks the car,
shoulders his pack and walks. What happens next is measured
in absence. No call to say he's running late, No
text to his wife to say the path took longer
(01:34):
than planned, no return to the trailhead. By early afternoon,
the timeline stops friends are waiting. The window to be
back closes, and the ordinary becomes unusual.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
The alarm is raised within hours.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
There are uniforms at Dom Dom saddle the air wing
circles above the canopy while ground crews mark out grids.
Daylight savings buys more time and everyone uses it. Volunteers,
police and locals move throughout the scrub, checking junctions, cut throughs,
and places the places a careful walker would and wouldn't go.
(02:23):
Evening comes, then night at the trailhead Z, his wife
and a friend stay in the car, eyes fixed on
the tree line. Any minute, Warren will walk out and
apologize to his wife for the worry, but he never emerges.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Warren Meyer went hiking in Victoria's Yarrow Rangers and was
never seen again.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
This is episode three of The Missing Matter.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Warren matters, Okay, well, here we are, z Maya, one
of the people I admire highly in this space.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Zee, I have been following your journey to find your
beloved Warren for a very long time, and to be honest,
when I first sort of dipped into the world of
the Missing You're one of the first stories I read
about and heard about, so I feel very privileged to
be sitting here talking to you today.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So I've brought you on to the missing matter, Warren matters.
So you've described Warren as someone who's deeply connected to nature,
shaped by a childhood growing up in the Canadian Rockies.
Could you share some stories with our listeners that capture
his love of the outdoors and what continued for you
(03:48):
guys after you moved to Australia.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, Warren grew up in Calgary, which is about an
hour's drive to the Rockies. So even as a little boy,
he would do family trips up there, and I can
always remember his mum saying that he was the first
out of the car when they got to a place.
He'd run down to a lake, or run across to
some rocks, or checked the bush out or the forest out,
(04:14):
I should say, looking for animals and looking for anything
that is out of the ordinary, because you know, he
was in the city, so to go to the country
was his freedom. My first grandson is the same. He
cannot get enough of nature. So it seems to be
a family trade.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And you guys met very early, didn't you.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yes, I met Warren on March the first, in nineteen
seventy six. I always remember that date and I met
him in Katmandu and we boarded an army truck that
had been converted to take us through to London.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
It was a pretty rough trip.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We had tents stacked under seats and it was incredibly
adventurous and dramatic in many ways, but ended up going
through thirteen countries in weeks and a COSTAUS thirteen hundred dollars.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
These are Warren's words.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, that sounds like an adventure of the best kind, really,
isn't it. And you guys fell in love on that trip,
I feel is the case.
Speaker 6 (05:17):
Yeah, we did fall in love.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
In fact, when we went to the taj Mahal it
was our first romantic stroll if you like. So you
couldn't get better than that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That's amazing, It's very amazing. I love to hear those stories.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
When we got to London, we bought it a very
clapped out combe van and traveled around Great Britain for
about three months, and that was another series of adventures.
This fan had three wheels the same size and the
fourth wheel was a different size, so we literally skidded
our way through the whole of Great Britain. Amazing, especially
(05:53):
in Ireland when it was wet every day. But you
can laugh about those things, of course, and it was
part of being young and not having much funds. And
after that, Warren I was going back to an engineering
job that was waiting for him, and I thought, well,
I'll go with him. I'd never been to Canada, not
thought much about it, but there I was.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
On a plane going with him across to Calgary.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I'm sure that has helped to build this love and
connection that I still see you have for Warren today.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Well, why I think about your story a lot is
they were the same age that you were when your
mum went missing, and I see you as my daughter because.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
You know, you went through.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
It at the same age as my children went through it,
and I know when you get into your early twenties
you're just finding your way in life, You're just branching out,
and it's terrible to have something to have a parent
go mysteriously. So that's one of the reasons I've followed
you closely because I know the trauma that's attached to
(07:01):
that and it's something now that you carry through your life.
Same with my two children. It really sucked the life
out of them to lose their hero dads in such
dramatic circumstances, and it's something that is, as you know,
is always there and you just have to make the
(07:21):
best of life, build your life. They're both married with
two children each, but there's a hole there and that whole,
unfortunately will end up in the life journey that my
grandchildren make now, because it's an intergenerational thing and it's
very sad to see that unfold. I have lots of
(07:43):
questions from my grandchildren about their grandpa and it really
rips me apart sometimes some of the innocent things they say,
you know, especially in those early years where they thought
the night fairy could bring Grandpa to them.
Speaker 6 (08:00):
Just terrible, terrible, tragic journey.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I mean, if someone passes away, if her parents passes away,
and you can say, well, this is what has taken
my dear husband and I miss him, you have an ending.
But with this it's just an ongoing open wound that
never heals. And I know your children probably feel.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
The same way.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And it's very hard to navigate, I feel, because you
everyone has a different personality too, right, So I've got
three children, all with very different personalities and different coping
mechanisms as well. So I've got some or one in particular,
who is very engaging and very much wanting to be
a part of it and wanting to listen and hear,
(08:45):
And then I've got another one who just doesn't want
to listen to talk about it at all because it
upsets her. And then you know, I've had my youngest
who sort of come in and out, and it's been
very challenging for them, especially when they see their grandmother
in magazines and in newspapers and on TV and their
mum being on TV and potentially the stress that that
(09:05):
goes through. And I'm sure you know, Julian Renee have
the same for you when they see you having to
dredge yourself through what we do when we have a
missing person and we don't want to give up on
looking for them.
Speaker 6 (09:18):
Yeah, and it's very surreal, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's not the normal state of affairs in life. And
I was interviewed once on television a couple of years ago,
and my little prep grandchild came home and couldn't believe
that she could see the house there. And so the
next night came around, she says, where are the cameras.
Are we going to be on TV again tonight? You know,
(09:41):
there was something amusing about it, but it just showed
how out of the ordinary our lives are really that
it's not normal for the world to know your affairs,
and tragic affairs like this to be aired and commented on.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
It's not easy. It's a horrible journey, as you know.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But there's good with the bad because most people really care.
The generosity of spirit that we've come across because of
our tragedy. I don't think would have been obvious if
something like this hadn't have happened.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
So there's kind of.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
A good part of life as well with this difficult journey.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
That we do.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I couldn't agree more. And I always say, you know,
my cup is half full for the good people, you know,
And I think if I focus, for me personally on
the good rather than the bad, it does help me
keep going and keep the wheels spinning and keep coming
up with new ideas and trying my best to find
my mum and find out what's happened. And I'm sure
you're the same with Warren, with everything that you do
(10:44):
as well. He sounds like he was such an awesome
dad too, you know, like he took the kids away
on trips and Matu Peach you and the Kokoda track.
They must be really amazing and very important memories for
your kids too.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Oh they keep those memories close. And it's happened. Those
two big tess happened eighteen months before Warren went missing.
In fact, my daughter came back with Warren just three
months before he went missing, all excited about their South
America trip, and you could not imagine what was around
the corner. And they had special times with their dad though,
(11:24):
to keep forever. But it's sort of a lesson there
to us all. Don't waste your life on small things.
Get out there and do things and appreciate what you have,
because I can tell you it can change in an instant,
which certainly is what happened to us. In a blink
of an eye while we were away on holiday, just
(11:46):
Warren and myselfie was gone, you know, just like that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
And so let's talk about the day he went missing.
It was on Easter Sunday in two thousand and eight,
when he woke up early. I think you were planning
on driving him, but he decided he didn't want to
inconvenience you by making you drive him too early. So
he went by himself, and he prepared his pike and
his lunch and had himself all sorted. He had all
(12:15):
these bits and pieces his GPS. He's mappy at food
and water and batteries and torches and everything that he need,
very very prepared, because he was quite an experienced hiker.
Can you walk us through what happened that morning until
you realize that something was wrong?
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yes, Well, we went away as a group of ten,
so I spent the morning having breakfast out on a
balcony with the other friends and we were just laughing
and chatting and catching up. We'd been doing this for
about twenty years each Easter, and Warren would take that
morning walk on Easter Sunday and meet us for lunch afterwards.
(12:53):
There was nothing out of the ordinary in what he
was doing. He had chosen the closest heike to Hellsville
where we had been staying, so he was very knowledgeable
about the area and very mindful about what he was doing,
so we never thought anything about it. We'd been out
for dinner the night before and we just talked about
(13:15):
him going to dom Dom saddle and just basically everyone said,
we'll have a great height, we'll see you for lunch tomorrow.
So when lunchtime came on the Sunday and he wasn't back,
I thought, oh, well, maybe he's delayed a little. You know,
we'll go on and he'll catch us up. And I
still remember sitting in that restaurant looking at all the
(13:38):
people walking through and there wasn't Warren there. And you
don't immediately press a panic button and say, well, where
is he, what's happened? You tend to think things like, oh,
he's having a shower, he's got back a bit late,
he'll arrive anytime soon. And he just didn't come, and
(13:58):
we all started to worry because he had a fully
charged phone. His habit was to phone if anything was delay,
and so there was no response from his phone actually
when we started phoning. So in the end we couldn't
bear it any longer and we got up and left,
went back to where our cabins were, and his car
(14:20):
wasn't there. And that's when I had a real sinking
feeling like there is something seriously wrong here. So half
stayed at the cabins and half of us went to
Dom Dom's saddle and I expected to see a crash
car off the road. The black Spurs are very busy,
windy road and they have lots of accidents, so I thought, well, maybe.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
That's what's happened.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I didn't want to go there either, but no car
was off the side and we drove into the car
park and his car was at the high end, the
first car we saw, and I thought, oh, what's going
on here as he lost his keys or something, so we.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Looked for a backpack.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
We expected him to leave us a sign if he
was anywhere near, you know, filling in time. No backpack,
everything locked up. So we walked around for about ten
minutes and we realized this was very serious and phone
triple zero straight away, so that put us just after
four pm I think, and we were told that local
(15:27):
policts would come and they'd get the air wing out,
which was such a relief because I thought, well, there's
quite a few hours until it's dark, so we had
that extra hour or so of daylight.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Can you the landscape in there in the Australian bush
and landscape can be quite a harsh terrain. Can you
describe what that location was like? Just to help people
who were following along who might not know that area
very well, and you know when you're dealing with trying
to find war and what you were up against.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yes, it's the landscape is rainforest. It's where water is generated.
For Melbourne really has quite a bit of rainfall, although
back then it was drought. Very messy bush, a lot
of pest plants because it sits on the doorstep of
a very large city and weeds get away. It's very
(16:22):
pretty with the Mountain Ash. I can imagine why Warren
wanted to go there because he was mad about trees
and the Mountain Ash was his favorite tree in terms
of searching. Then if you go into the bush, it's
a battle really. But having said that, there's roads and
tracks throughout that you can drive a vehicle down. There's
(16:46):
fire breaks on either side. There's no reason to be
going anywhere near the bush.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
You admire it from afar.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And we did the day before we'd gone for a
hike and we had said how beautiful the bush was,
but it was very messy, very unattractive in a way,
so we had talked about the bush.
Speaker 6 (17:07):
He was very aware of the messiness of the bush. Also,
he was only wearing shorts and a T shirt.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Now, I don't think he was up for punishment and
coming back all scratched and battered to go out for lunch.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
I mean, it's a nonsense concept.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
That he would go off the tracks. I mean, if
there's designated tracks there, he would have just stayed on
the track and admired the bush from afar.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And he had maps and GPS, he had all the
tools there just to navigate his way through. He only
wanted to go five k's in and five k's out,
and he had worked it all out to be a
three and a half hour high and then fifteen minutes
or so back to Hillsville.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, to have lunch with you guys. Look, the initial search,
from what I've read, seemed quite promising. The air wing
was dispatched, as you said, and the police were on
site within hours. But I think you've told me before
that there was a critical assumption about the intent route
and that sent the searchers on a wrong path. I
(18:09):
guess you could say, could you explain the bush bashing
theory that started and why it was inaccurate for Warren?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Yes, Well, I knew Warren had brought maps with him
I'd seen them on a window sill, and I knew
he was a person to carry a map, at least
one map. And when I was called to the police
control room on Easter Monday morning, quite.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
Early, we were trying to work out where he had gone.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
So I mentioned the maps and I said he downloaded
them on the Fridays. So my son was staying at
our place and I got him to check the computer
to see what maps were downloaded, and we found one
of the missing maps and it was emailed through. Unfortunately,
I didn't know that dom Dom's Saddle was the name
(18:58):
of the place. I thought it related to the geographic
feature in the middle of that map, which is Mount
dom Dom, so I said, well, maybe that's what is
meant by dom dom saddles. So unfortunately, up to the
top of Mount dom Dom there's no defined track. It's
basically you are bush bashing. But no one's told me that.
(19:21):
At the end of the first day, if someone had said, well, ze,
do you realize that there's no path up to the
top of the mountain. It's not really a huge mountain,
it's more like a giant hill, I would have said, well, no,
he wouldn't have gone that way, he would have stayed
to the tracks, and common sense tells you that, after all,
he had shorts and a T shirt on, so unfortunately
(19:45):
that place was stripped bare.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
That's why I can say he wasn't there.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
So that's where you get the concept, Oh, he liked
to bush bash, and that is so wrong to do that.
So assumptions are being made early, and it's really hard
to direct it away from something like that.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Is time goes on and your words are important, right.
I've said this in my mum's case as well, where
what people say at the very outset can carry all
the way through, and you're constantly like, we're sitting here
seventeen years later and you're still explaining the bushbashing situation
because it happened day one of the search, or the
second day after Warren went missing. Yes, how did that
(20:27):
early misunderstanding shape the outcome of the search?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Well, they did a search in other places, but the
focus mainly was on Mount dom Dom and there was
a five day search. I mean, when I think back now,
five days, it's such a short amount of time to
go searching for someone, and I believe that wouldn't happen today.
I believe the search would be extended to be on
five days, but that's all we got, and understanding of
(20:56):
what was happening in the environment wasn't established. I can't
complain too much about the actual physical search. Search and
rescue were fantastic, and the community got behind us, and
I think there were about one hundred and sixty people searching,
but the answers just weren't coming in those five days,
(21:18):
and we went from that to really not an investigation
following because of assumptions made. And here we are seventeen
and a half years later, not really getting to the
crux of the matter, even today's.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And you slept in your car that night, didn't you?
Was that the first night or was that the second night?
Speaker 6 (21:38):
I slept about.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Two nights, and it was very warm. Everyone called it
an Indian summer. Very late March, it was still warm weather,
and I had to keep the window down because it
was so hot inside the car, and the mosquitoes were
buzzing around. There was a full moon, and I remember
looking down the tracks quite often expecting Warren to be
(22:02):
walking towards me, and you know, you get these moving
shadows from the trees and it sort of makes you
feel alert and oh, he must be coming now, this
is him and it never was. It was the most
tortuous couple of nights I've ever spent in my life,
and exhausting, totally exhausting because you don't sleep.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I just my heart just breaks for you. I just yeah,
I can imagine just being there waiting for him to
walk out, because that's exactly what you expected. And you
know you're sitting here today talking to me about it,
and he still hasn't come home. So you know we're
here with all your hope and all our prayers that
(22:45):
you know we can find some answers to help you.
So we're going to move into the investigation side of
and probably some missed opportunities, right for some resolution for
your family. Well, I personally talk about closure. I'm sure
you don't either, because we don't get that right. It's
(23:07):
not something that we in the missing space are privilege
to have. I guess.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
There's no resolution.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You're just in this torment and you're looking for solving this.
That's the dominating thing. You want to bring your loved
one home for uppermost, that's the thing that tortures you
from day to day, that you can't bring your loved
one home. And then when you look at an investigation
(23:36):
that went nowhere very quickly, with so many things either
errors made or overlooking or experiential bias that was there
from the beginning, it's easy to see why I'm here
seventeen and a half years later, still asking police to
give us support. And there are three key issues that
(24:01):
stand out amongst all the other stuff that went on.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
It sort of upsets me a lot to talk about
this first one, but the fact that local residents actually
called police and reported this situation tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
On Easter Sunday, the day that Warren went missing, residents
heard out of control shooting to an extent that was
terrifying for them. And they had six children out collecting
Easter eggs, and their house was just up the hill
but well hidden by the forest, and they rushed them
(24:40):
inside for their own protection. And even over the last
couple of years speaking to them, you can still see
it's a trauma.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
It was so out of the blue, so.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Frightening, and nothing like you would have if there was
someone shooting deer or whatever, where you'd perhaps hear an
occasional pop. This was just the book bush going crazy.
So they were weekenders up there and they thought they'd
reported the next weekend to local police, and they were
(25:13):
very deliberate in what they said to the local police,
and they said there was a campsite there, a fresh
camp site that they felt should be checked, and no
action was taken. And out of the events that occurred
up there, you have to say, well, this extreme event
(25:34):
is really stands out. You know, it's highly probable where
I was shot in that chaos. And he knew that track,
it's called Manda Track, and he talked about it because
it's part of the National Hiking Trail which goes all
the way up to Cooktown in Queensland. He even showed
me where that hike starts from in Hellsville.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
That was why he was talking about it.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And that's where they found the campsite on that track
that was.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
Just outside the water catchment.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yes, it was about two hundred and fifty meters from
where he parked his car.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And the police what did they do when the residents
contacted the police, They did nothing.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
They did nothing, And we found out about it in
October two thousand and eight. So that's from March to October.
That's about seven or eight months, and we only found
out about it because the residents approached us after I
did a current affair and they were apologetic. They said, well,
(26:37):
we feel we need to tell you this, but we
don't want to disrupt your lives or make it difficult
for you.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
But it was a blessing.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
They did speak up and they assumed the police may
have done something, but the police did not do anything.
So already eight months down the track, you're trying to
do a catch up on an extreme event that should
have been handled a week after Warren went missing. Of
the biggest regrets that we've lost all that time.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's crazy to think did the police do anything in
future forward from there?
Speaker 6 (27:15):
No, they haven't done anything.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
Still today, Look, this sounds brutal, but I believe after
a five day search we were just dumped. We had
one local detective this was way out of his league
and also in country towns police dealing with all the
other stuff, and then you come along with this complex case.
(27:37):
It's too hard to handle, and so I think that's
what happened with our case. It was put in the
too hard basket, hoping that we'd go away that we
weren't going away, and we still will not go away.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And I think that's where I sort of get on
my high horse a little bit about missing persons cases.
I don't believe should fall to general duty's police at
a local station, because they're not trained understand they probably
haven't dealt with the missing person's case before, and so
things get lost.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yes, And I think that if local police are dealing
with missing persons cases, it's usually the lost hiker. I
can see where the prejudice comes from that, Oh, well,
they're you know, of a certain age. Why I was
fifty seven, He must have had a heart attack or something.
All the things that were put to you which were
(28:31):
a nonsense. And I actually went to a doctor and
I said, well, I was with Warren twenty four to seven.
What you been exhibiting something if you'd had before he'd
had a massive heart attack. And the doctor said, well, yes,
there'd be a general sense of unwellness somewhere. There'd be indicators.
People don't just drop dead like that like in the movies.
(28:54):
But also common sense tells you he should have been
on a track if that was the case, And so
you're arguing with not so much arguing, but you're debating
the it's of a very fit, healthy man who would
not bushbash now, would not have a heart attack, when
in fact there should be just this open mind there
(29:16):
and there isn't. But with local police usually they're dealing
with lost people or they certainly haven't been dealing with
the case like ours.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
Ours is a very rare case.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
I understand that, but you've still got to come to
it with an open mind because shutting it down abandons
a family and you're just left there. You know that
you have to work out how to get through the
rest of your life when the way you've been treated
makes every day just a torture just to get up
and face another day of fairness and loss and ambiguity.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
It's a really horrible journey.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, it is. So there is a second investigation that
was sort of looked into as well. There was an
a psychiatric patient that had a violent intentions I guess
potentially overlapping with Warren's path around that same time, and
the man had said to be planning to kill people
(30:18):
and kill strangers. Can you explain to us the timeline error,
because I think this is important to get people to
understand as well, and the police resistance to look further
into this.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yes, well, this patient was an absconder. To actually abscond
out of the facility was this huge undertaking. You've got
to jump onto a tree and then onto a roof
and over a wall. It's not something simple like walking
out of a door. Anyway, he absconded and took someone
else's car and came to Nabathong, which is about two
(30:55):
k's north of dom dom Saddle, and he ran out
of petrol and he stayed there until he was seen
at the end of Easter Saturday on a road that
could have taken him down to dom Dom's Saddle.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
What we know is that he was picked up.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
By campers at around ten o'clock the next morning, and
he was hungry and really desperate, and they were quite
afraid of him. He was in a really bad state,
and they drove him to Warburton, where he then claimed
to have walked home to his ex's house and he
(31:33):
was readmitted to hospital. What I found out recently when
I got the police files, which I hadn't read before,
really shocked me about this man. The level of his
wanting to be violent was exposed and he was aiming
to kill countless strangers. That was really scary to read about,
(31:55):
and that all the time they were searching up at
dom Dom and the very last day when they're packing
up the search, he had been interviewed by police and
the very first thing he did was absconed. He absconded
about three times that week, and the family believed he
had been put back into hospital and was getting appropriate
care when every time the police were mentioned he'd abscone.
(32:17):
And as I said, it wasn't easy to do that.
He was in a high dependency board, and yet he
was able to trick his way out and climb over
a very high wall. But the crux came for me
when I read that he'd taken a vehicle and gone
bush for three days, and then under.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
His own volition, he came back.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
And he was in this facility for another two weeks
and never attempted to abscond again. That certainly raises huge
questions about his behavior, and he was quite gleeful that
he'd filled the police and he'd gone off for three
days and then come back. So there are serious questions
that still need answering to this day.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And so how frustrating is for you when you get
little or no communication from the police that this was happening.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
I thought he was under control, and you know, here
he is. As soon as the search is packed up.
He's gone bush for three days, having escaped from hospital.
It's just shocking. And I find that out, you know,
seventeen years down the track, when I've finally got the
police file to tell me that. So, yes, there's elements
of that that could still be investigated today.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And is that man still alive today?
Speaker 6 (33:33):
Do you know he suicided in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And the third one, which well, there's a couple there's
a couple more things we're going to talk about, because
I find that there's so many interesting facets of Warren's
disappearance that probably haven't been looked into properly from police.
And I'm sure that will roll you a little bit
as well, because I know it's very frustrating to go
back over that, So I apologize if that's upsetting in advance.
(34:03):
So more recently, you had HR dogs alert multiple times
on the Maunda Track area. Four separate occasions. The dogs
have alerted to finding human remains over a twenty two
month period. This is still being investigated, and we have
spoken a bit on the phone about this, and we've
(34:24):
had a few chats and the restrictions and the hurdles
you've had to face regarding this information. Can you tell
us about that?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yes, well, yes, four times they've alerted over twenty two months,
and there's gaps of a year.
Speaker 6 (34:39):
Before they've come back.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
A black lab called Billy, who belongs to Sada, is
a very switched on dog and was taken out in
October twenty twenty three with many curtists and doing a
podcast on Warren's story, and they journeyed about six k's
and the dogs like a little machine and just sits
(35:01):
in and out of the bush and around go as.
She's also a water dog and went into water, didn't
alert at all, and then coming back she alerted in
the area that the residents had taken us to show
us where the shooting had originated from, and so that
shocked everyone.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
Of all the places to stop, it was there.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And three more times she has gone back, and the
last two was with another dog, and the behavior is
the same. The complexity of it is that it's on
the side of a hill and they seem to be
reacting to water runoff from the hill down onto this track,
(35:45):
but they've been consistent in doing that.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
So when the Missing.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Person squad and SADA and some members from Search and
Rescue came up there with the family recently, there was
an anthropologist there as well, we were hoping that something
might be revealed, but already there'd been fit fifteen months between.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
The last two visits.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
You know, no one's in a hurry are they to
get out there?
Speaker 6 (36:11):
Anyway?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
We had a debate over the merits of whether human
remains dogs could tell the difference between human bacteria, vegetation bacteria,
or animal bacteria. I hope that they will take it
to experts and have this clarified, because as a family,
you shouldn't be standing up there debating the merits of
(36:34):
whether these dogs.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
Work or not.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
You know that should be understood. Human remains dogs are
used all over the world. My feeling is that there's
high probability that the.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Dogs are onto something.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
My feeling also is that there's entangled weeds and mess
that is going to make it hard to pinpoint the
exact area. So in terms of justifying bringing in a
bulldozer to strip a general area. I don't think that
will be accepted by many people.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Is that area of land protected?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yes? It is.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
So it's frustrating and we may feel highly that he's there,
but we can't access the.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Spot and there's no way of working like there's no
applications or things that we can do to help, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I've been trying to think is their sown or is
there but I can't see that there's a solution to this.
But the police have said to me they will take
it away and get further expert opinion on it and
will listen to Sada. Sadas putting together a package to
also send to the Missing Persons squad. Unfortunately, that leaves
(37:57):
us with one out, one thing to do that I
feel is the only other way, and I'll put it
to police.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
I said that I feel that.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
We haven't been supported, that they should be doing a
publicity for us, which they have never done, going way
back to that first week of when while I went missing,
they did work, but nothing since, which is upsetting. I've
been doing it all myself, basically, and I'm exhausted after
all this time.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
And I said that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
We should be able to talk with police about a
reward because there's a lot of unanswered stuff in amongst
all that that's never been investigated, and that leaves just
one thing that could help us, and that is people
out there who know something. There has to be someone
(38:49):
who knows something, especially if it's related to.
Speaker 6 (38:53):
The shooting event. It was so extreme.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I can't see that people would go home after Easter
and not talk about it to someone, you know, relationships
chain and I feel that someone out there, or persons
other persons are sitting on information that it's time now
to come forward and say what you know, it's just terrific.
(39:16):
We can't shut this down. We'll continue any way we
can possible, but if people can give us a bit
of peace of mind, and as I've said, it's impacting
our grandchildren now that if they had any level of decency,
they would actually help.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, And I think thinking about the shooting, it does
sort of give me the vibe that there's more than
one person there right there. Sounds like there's multiple going
off at the same time, So you'd have to think
that there would have been a few people. And even
if those people could come forward and say, well, yes,
we were there and we were doing this, but we
don't know anything, or we know something like it would
(39:55):
be very beneficial. So Zee there is currently no reward
for any information regarding Warren's disappearance.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
There's no reward.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We need to push Victorian Police like we need to
help you and be a voice to help you push
for this. I think that's really important because I'm certain
people know.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yes, I mean, because of those three events, they're so
extreme and out of the ordinary and not handled properly.
There was this era with the time frame with the
site patient Warren and he could have come across and
we always said there was a two hour window of opportunity,
and the police kept saying there was only one hour.
(40:41):
And because of that, it was dropped within five days
and it should not have been dropped, especially when the
patient was absconding like that.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
It was an error made by the local detective.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Which was then passed on to Homicide, which was then
passed on to the coroner, and it was recorded in
the finding. And it was only when Valentine Smith came
on board in twenty eighteen and did a thorough review
of the case that he brought it to the attention
of the coroner. It took further years for the coroner
(41:18):
to finally alter it, and that was during the COVID years.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
I mean, where is.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
It in the whole journey we've done where someone has
stepped up and said we've got to help this family.
It just hasn't It just hasn't taken place.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Well, let's certainly put it out there into the universe,
because I think that's definitely something that should be happening.
I mean, the reality is, I'm doing this with every
case because not to bring upset or sadness to the case,
but just some reality for people who are listening to
think about it, because you know, with Warren, he's now
been missing for six three hundred and fifty five days,
(41:58):
and that is a long trauma for you Zee as
his wife, to be putting yourself through everything, your children,
your grandchildren, as you said, even you know Warren's friends.
I'm the trauma and the ambiguous feeling and the ambiguity
that we're living with extends, doesn't it. It just doesn't
(42:19):
stop with us as the next of kin or you know,
the people who are putting themselves forward, and it's very
stressful to do that. You have done such a great job,
like the amount of work and advocating you've done for
Warren is to be absolutely applauded, because you definitely stand
out for me, and, as I said to you before,
someone who I really looked up to. When you know,
(42:41):
I remember when Valentine was looking and digging deeper and
finding things, and I was like, oh, wow, that is
such good police work, you know, And it does happen,
but it's it's so rare, unfortunately, that we get that
person who's just prepared to sort of put their neck
out and actually say I'm going to do more than
the last person. Now, look, let's talk about the coroner's
(43:01):
court experience for you, because I know that's another area,
a whole other area of disappointment and stress that we
have to deal with in the missing space. But it
took you ten years to receive Warren's death certificate, and
I know you've spoken about the coroner's court being an
intimidating and unsupportive place for families. Can you describe for
(43:25):
me what that process was like and why it was
so difficult for you?
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Yes, Well, how many people end up in the corners court,
I would say very few, But I felt that that
was the way of bringing all the issues we had
out into the open, and we had been promised an inquest,
which was then taken away, and we just saw one
year after another after another just disappear with poor communication,
(43:55):
lack of empathy. We were just shocked at how things
were conducted. And in the end, after ten years, you
just say, look, I wanted over with. I'm trying to
survive without Warne's death certificate or acknowledgment.
Speaker 6 (44:10):
That he is dead.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I have battles with various institutions, even over the smallest
of things. This is traumatic and it finally came to
an end after ten years, and it was very unsatisfactory.
What I found out about Theer's Court over those years
was it was very dysfunctional. And I won't go into
(44:34):
the tragedies of what actually occurred, but the court was
actually find the maximum for an unsafe toxic workplace. Now,
all families should be able to walk into an institution
like that this and know that they will be listened to,
that there will be care taken, and above all, that
(44:54):
there will be empathy. Because we come with tragic deaths
of our loved once and that wasn't the case. I'm
told that the Coroner's court is a different place now
to then. I'm also told that the police handle things
differently to when we went through the system. But it happened,
(45:15):
and we are living with the ramifications of it, and
we're still living with unresolved grief, and we are unable
to say, well, this is what's happened to Warren one
hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (45:28):
We should not be abandoned.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
Issues need to be looked at more closely, even to
this day, because you never know how things turn around.
You know, many years later cases can be solved. It
just needs key points being highlighted and examined closely, and
luck and the willingness of people out there in the
community to step.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Up and people not giving up.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
Right, you don't have the choice, I think that's the thing.
And you would know that you don't have any other choice.
You're on this treadmill and you just have to keep
going because you're instincts tell you need this solved, you
need to bring your loved one home. And I'm getting
to the end of my life and I think, well,
(46:14):
how many people do I know who've passed away that
I've read about that they never found out what happened
to their loved one.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
And it's just a horrible, horrible journey to take.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
That's happening more and more and more, isn't it. And
I think one of the things that always I remembered
about listening to your case, you're talking about your house,
and said it was about you trying to just simply
change your address on your mortgage, and you couldn't do
that because Warren's name was actually on the documents, and
because you didn't have a death certificate, and his privacy's
(46:49):
still mattered, and you know, you couldn't speak for him.
Just the trauma that brings to a family with just
the simplest of things.
Speaker 6 (46:59):
And I had to keep paying his insurance.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
He wasn't working, but I had to keep because I
couldn't shut it out because it was his you know,
the ironies of it. So I spent eight years paying
his insurance and the whole thing is mad. But I
actually my sister's friend was working, I think with the ATO,
and there was something came in about a missing person's
(47:23):
and a family member had a query and no one
wanted to touch it because no one knew the answer,
and get being passed around and put in someone else's basket.
And got passed on again until it got to her
and she said, because of what has happened to Warren,
and I know the case really intimately, I can't pass
(47:44):
this on to someone else. I'm not responsible for this,
but I will find an answer for that family.
Speaker 6 (47:49):
So there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Of ducking and diving and hiding away because it's all
too hard. But if you think it's hard, what do
you think it's like for a family. I couldn't settle
after Warren went missing, and I sold the house, and
I moved about three times, and of course I.
Speaker 6 (48:08):
Had to deal with the same issues every time I moved.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
I'm well settled now, but the trauma I had to
move away from a suburb we love dearly, but I
was out there on the radar and people would cross
the street if they saw me coming. And all this
because we went away for anista holiday. Like your world
is thrown into such extremes. It's I wanted to hide away,
(48:34):
I must say, for a long time. But when I
finally came out, I came out swinging and I'll just
keep doing that because I don't want any other family
to go through what we've been through.
Speaker 6 (48:44):
Sale It's horrible.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
And I think that's kind of what drives you, right,
I think if you've got that personality, and I totally
understand it's not everyone has that personality either, but I think,
you know, you're very similar to me where I just
see you just keep going, You just you get knocked down,
you get back up, you keep going, and I think
you're really you're a really strong human. Who oh, thank
(49:10):
you highly admire because this is very, very difficult. And
you know, I know your family, particularly Warren, would be
extremely proud of everything that you've done to date.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
Well, I know it's all to do with love in
the end, isn't it Like you had a love for
your mum and you also had an understanding about your
mom and I had a deep understanding. I was married
for thirty one years and he really was my soulmate
and made me laugh every day. And it's been taken away.
(49:42):
It was stolen away in the most extreme manner, and
especially when you're on holiday, you don't expect something like
that to happen. You expect to come home and continue
on with your life, and it just didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
And I'm so sorry for that. I'm sorry you've had
to live that. You know, I was talking to you
and we were talking about that you would like to
scatter Warren's in the rockies near Bamff. I have been
to Banff. It's such a beautiful location, and I can
just imagine that he would love nothing more to do that.
But you know, you've said to me the fear is
(50:18):
of you know, it's becoming more unlikely with every passing
year because we still haven't found him yet. You know,
what would it mean to you if you could make
that happen.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
I feel it would be the final gift I could
give him if we could go back and scatter his
ashes near Bath.
Speaker 6 (50:36):
It's very sad that both his parents died.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
They lived about nine years after a while I went missing,
and it was such trauma. Warren's mum got dementia in
the end, and the doctor felt that the tragedy actually
hastened that with her. One of Warren's sisters has passed
away now and these dreams of you know, us all
(51:01):
getting together and doing something special for wine has been
ripped away bit by bit. And now with the way
the hill is up there in dom Dom's saddle, to
actually get any further with it.
Speaker 6 (51:16):
I'm thinking it won't happen.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
You've been very brave to come and chat with me, Zee,
I'm really grateful. I want to end these podcast episodes
that we're doing to bring awareness to these cases are
so important and the more we talk about it, the
more people will talk about it, and the more hope
we might find that one person who might have heard something,
(51:40):
might have seen something that can go I remember, let
me come forward and talk about it. Can you tell
us why Warren matters?
Speaker 4 (51:51):
Warren matters, like any human being on the planet, has
the right to live peacefully and live their days out,
and that was stolen away from him in his middle years.
He did not deserve what happened to him. Something was
thrust upon him in the most horrific manner when he
(52:12):
went on a morning's hike, and the tragedy of it
is really extreme, I believe. And he was a special
person to so many people, so well loved, and people
have said to me he'd light up the room whenever
he walked in. He had a great sense of humor,
a wonderful personality. He was a business owner that was
(52:35):
loved by his staff, and the staff used to always
say just treats us so equally, you wouldn't know it
was the boss. The children loved him, the extended family
loved him like he had just had special traits as
a human being. And we all have the right to
(52:55):
live peacefully and to have our death when it comes acknowledged,
and have our loved ones around. He died alone. He
died alone out there. Sorry, I don't see, and that
really breaks my heart. I've got to know the family
(53:18):
where the shooting took place, and I've said to them,
he was such beautiful people. If only he knew you
were just there, hidden by the trees, it would have
given him so much comfort. Yeah, it's terrible, terrible to
die alone when you were so loved, so many people
(53:41):
love you, so try not to cry. But his last
perments must have been just awful, and you have to
face it. And I have to say, well that that
was really terrible. What happened to him the worst, And
all he was doing was going for a morning's hike.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
Sorry, you don't apologize to me, not at all. Gosh,
it's it's so raw, isn't it. It's just it's so raw,
and you know he matters, He matters. I'm really hoping
ze that we can put this out there and we
can find some peace and some solities.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
It would help if we could bring him home or
we could you know, find answers that would help in
this journey.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
But yeah, and it's such a bit it's a bittersweet,
isn't it, because you know so many people are like, oh,
well with my mum as well. It's so sad because
you want to you want to have that element of hope,
but it's very hard. It's a hard journey and you know,
I empathize with you. So have you tried doing a
(54:57):
petition to see if we could get a reward happening with.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
Well, this is in the hands is the place at
the moment, And and I know in Western Australia they're
offering up rewards for certain cases that are missing persons
cases which really don't have as much often in terms.
Speaker 6 (55:17):
Of clues as we do.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
I really feel a reward is a way to go
with our case because we need to flush out something.
And there's no doubt when you look at the shooting,
for example, that people know.
Speaker 6 (55:32):
The other two incidents that occurred.
Speaker 4 (55:35):
There are people who probably sit on information as well, so.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well we can only hope. I think you know there's
good people, you know, in our space, in the missing space,
and in our communities that we're growing through Facebook. And
you know it does fall on us as the family
to keep those pushes. Otherwise they would just be a
file at sitting collecting dust. So you know, good on
(56:01):
you for being a hero and moving forward and moving
mountains to find Warren. And I wish you, thank you
every success, and hope that we get some answers.
Speaker 4 (56:14):
And I think if I can just say, it's not
just your case and my case. You don't want this
to happen to anyone else. You want your loved one understood.
You want to know their behavior, their love for family,
their skills that they had. In Warren's case, this ability
to hike through a very simple environment should have been understood.
Speaker 6 (56:39):
You just don't want.
Speaker 4 (56:41):
Other people to face the walls that you and I
have faced, watching every year go by, watching the fumbling
through by authorities when they haven't really looked at things closely.
You've got to approach it with an open mind. You
cast your net wide. You don't just bring these biases
(57:02):
into a case, especially to earl when other things have found.
You should have someone available to talk to you, to
go through things you don't hide away and hope it
will go away, because as you know, it will never
go away. When you are on this treadmill called the missing,
(57:23):
there's no part of you that can just walk away,
and so you will continue. I will continue until my
time has come because Whyine deserved it, my children deserve it,
and now my grandchildren deserve it.
Speaker 3 (57:43):
Next week on the missing matter.
Speaker 7 (57:47):
That's a tricky question to answer. I think because of
the circumstances, it's not been as conducive to having the
entire family support. My main support base has been my husband.
Without him, I wouldn't have been able to go through
this journey, and I probably wouldn't be to this day.
Speaker 3 (58:06):
It was so tough.
Speaker 7 (58:07):
I was trying to juggle a really different form of
grief while dropping my kids off at KINDI streaming with tears,
and then having to go to work face people, and
then come home and then try to still wrap my
head around all this craziness.
Speaker 6 (58:23):
That was going on.
Speaker 7 (58:25):
I had to make that decision, and that he working
on the case became a full time job because I
was like, no, what I was listening to me I
can't let this just go
Approche production.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Easter Sunday, two thousand and eight, Warren Meyer drives to
a place that looks harmless on the map, dom Dom Saddle,
a small roadside saddle and picnic pull out off the
Black Spur in the Yarrow Ranges. He's planning a short,
prepared hike before lunch with friends. Nothing ambitious, nothing reckless,
(00:34):
the kind of walk you take when you've done this
one hundred times before.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
He's methodical.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
He has what he needs, GPS, maps, food and water.
He knows how to read the country and how to
read a day.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
The plan is.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Simple, step off, stretch the legs, you back in time
to eat lunch with his wife and friends. He parks
at the saddle forest on both sides, tracks red into
the trees and out of sight. It's the kind of
bush that fools you from the road, friendly at the edges, complicated.
(01:13):
As soon as you step in, he locks the car,
shoulders his pack and walks. What happens next is measured
in absence. No call to say he's running late, No
text to his wife to say the path took longer
(01:34):
than planned, no return to the trailhead. By early afternoon,
the timeline stops friends are waiting. The window to be
back closes, and the ordinary becomes unusual.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
The alarm is raised within hours.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
There are uniforms at Dom Dom saddle the air wing
circles above the canopy while ground crews mark out grids.
Daylight savings buys more time and everyone uses it. Volunteers,
police and locals move throughout the scrub, checking junctions, cut throughs,
and places the places a careful walker would and wouldn't go.
(02:23):
Evening comes, then night at the trailhead Z, his wife
and a friend stay in the car, eyes fixed on
the tree line. Any minute, Warren will walk out and
apologize to his wife for the worry, but he never emerges.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Warren Meyer went hiking in Victoria's Yarrow Rangers and was
never seen again.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
This is episode three of The Missing Matter.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Warren matters, Okay, well, here we are, z Maya, one
of the people I admire highly in this space.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Zee, I have been following your journey to find your
beloved Warren for a very long time, and to be honest,
when I first sort of dipped into the world of
the Missing You're one of the first stories I read
about and heard about, so I feel very privileged to
be sitting here talking to you today.
Speaker 6 (03:25):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So I've brought you on to the missing matter, Warren matters.
So you've described Warren as someone who's deeply connected to nature,
shaped by a childhood growing up in the Canadian Rockies.
Could you share some stories with our listeners that capture
his love of the outdoors and what continued for you
(03:48):
guys after you moved to Australia.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Well, Warren grew up in Calgary, which is about an
hour's drive to the Rockies. So even as a little boy,
he would do family trips up there, and I can
always remember his mum saying that he was the first
out of the car when they got to a place.
He'd run down to a lake, or run across to
some rocks, or checked the bush out or the forest out,
(04:14):
I should say, looking for animals and looking for anything
that is out of the ordinary, because you know, he
was in the city, so to go to the country
was his freedom. My first grandson is the same. He
cannot get enough of nature. So it seems to be
a family trade.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
And you guys met very early, didn't you.
Speaker 4 (04:37):
Yes, I met Warren on March the first, in nineteen
seventy six. I always remember that date and I met
him in Katmandu and we boarded an army truck that
had been converted to take us through to London.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
It was a pretty rough trip.
Speaker 4 (04:54):
We had tents stacked under seats and it was incredibly
adventurous and dramatic in many ways, but ended up going
through thirteen countries in weeks and a COSTAUS thirteen hundred dollars.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
These are Warren's words.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, that sounds like an adventure of the best kind, really,
isn't it. And you guys fell in love on that trip,
I feel is the case.
Speaker 6 (05:17):
Yeah, we did fall in love.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
In fact, when we went to the taj Mahal it
was our first romantic stroll if you like. So you
couldn't get better than that.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
That's amazing, It's very amazing. I love to hear those stories.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
When we got to London, we bought it a very
clapped out combe van and traveled around Great Britain for
about three months, and that was another series of adventures.
This fan had three wheels the same size and the
fourth wheel was a different size, so we literally skidded
our way through the whole of Great Britain. Amazing, especially
(05:53):
in Ireland when it was wet every day. But you
can laugh about those things, of course, and it was
part of being young and not having much funds. And
after that, Warren I was going back to an engineering
job that was waiting for him, and I thought, well,
I'll go with him. I'd never been to Canada, not
thought much about it, but there I was.
Speaker 6 (06:15):
On a plane going with him across to Calgary.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
I'm sure that has helped to build this love and
connection that I still see you have for Warren today.
Speaker 6 (06:24):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Well, why I think about your story a lot is
they were the same age that you were when your
mum went missing, and I see you as my daughter because.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
You know, you went through.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
It at the same age as my children went through it,
and I know when you get into your early twenties
you're just finding your way in life, You're just branching out,
and it's terrible to have something to have a parent
go mysteriously. So that's one of the reasons I've followed
you closely because I know the trauma that's attached to
(07:01):
that and it's something now that you carry through your life.
Same with my two children. It really sucked the life
out of them to lose their hero dads in such
dramatic circumstances, and it's something that is, as you know,
is always there and you just have to make the
(07:21):
best of life, build your life. They're both married with
two children each, but there's a hole there and that whole,
unfortunately will end up in the life journey that my
grandchildren make now, because it's an intergenerational thing and it's
very sad to see that unfold. I have lots of
(07:43):
questions from my grandchildren about their grandpa and it really
rips me apart sometimes some of the innocent things they say,
you know, especially in those early years where they thought
the night fairy could bring Grandpa to them.
Speaker 6 (08:00):
Just terrible, terrible, tragic journey.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
I mean, if someone passes away, if her parents passes away,
and you can say, well, this is what has taken
my dear husband and I miss him, you have an ending.
But with this it's just an ongoing open wound that
never heals. And I know your children probably feel.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
The same way.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
And it's very hard to navigate, I feel, because you
everyone has a different personality too, right, So I've got
three children, all with very different personalities and different coping
mechanisms as well. So I've got some or one in particular,
who is very engaging and very much wanting to be
a part of it and wanting to listen and hear,
(08:45):
And then I've got another one who just doesn't want
to listen to talk about it at all because it
upsets her. And then you know, I've had my youngest
who sort of come in and out, and it's been
very challenging for them, especially when they see their grandmother
in magazines and in newspapers and on TV and their
mum being on TV and potentially the stress that that
(09:05):
goes through. And I'm sure you know, Julian Renee have
the same for you when they see you having to
dredge yourself through what we do when we have a
missing person and we don't want to give up on
looking for them.
Speaker 6 (09:18):
Yeah, and it's very surreal, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's not the normal state of affairs in life. And
I was interviewed once on television a couple of years ago,
and my little prep grandchild came home and couldn't believe
that she could see the house there. And so the
next night came around, she says, where are the cameras.
Are we going to be on TV again tonight? You know,
(09:41):
there was something amusing about it, but it just showed
how out of the ordinary our lives are really that
it's not normal for the world to know your affairs,
and tragic affairs like this to be aired and commented on.
Speaker 6 (09:58):
It's not easy. It's a horrible journey, as you know.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
But there's good with the bad because most people really care.
The generosity of spirit that we've come across because of
our tragedy. I don't think would have been obvious if
something like this hadn't have happened.
Speaker 6 (10:15):
So there's kind of.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
A good part of life as well with this difficult journey.
Speaker 6 (10:20):
That we do.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I couldn't agree more. And I always say, you know,
my cup is half full for the good people, you know,
And I think if I focus, for me personally on
the good rather than the bad, it does help me
keep going and keep the wheels spinning and keep coming
up with new ideas and trying my best to find
my mum and find out what's happened. And I'm sure
you're the same with Warren, with everything that you do
(10:44):
as well. He sounds like he was such an awesome
dad too, you know, like he took the kids away
on trips and Matu Peach you and the Kokoda track.
They must be really amazing and very important memories for
your kids too.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Oh they keep those memories close. And it's happened. Those
two big tess happened eighteen months before Warren went missing.
In fact, my daughter came back with Warren just three
months before he went missing, all excited about their South
America trip, and you could not imagine what was around
the corner. And they had special times with their dad though,
(11:24):
to keep forever. But it's sort of a lesson there
to us all. Don't waste your life on small things.
Get out there and do things and appreciate what you have,
because I can tell you it can change in an instant,
which certainly is what happened to us. In a blink
of an eye while we were away on holiday, just
(11:46):
Warren and myselfie was gone, you know, just like that.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
And so let's talk about the day he went missing.
It was on Easter Sunday in two thousand and eight,
when he woke up early. I think you were planning
on driving him, but he decided he didn't want to
inconvenience you by making you drive him too early. So
he went by himself, and he prepared his pike and
his lunch and had himself all sorted. He had all
(12:15):
these bits and pieces his GPS. He's mappy at food
and water and batteries and torches and everything that he need,
very very prepared, because he was quite an experienced hiker.
Can you walk us through what happened that morning until
you realize that something was wrong?
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Yes, Well, we went away as a group of ten,
so I spent the morning having breakfast out on a
balcony with the other friends and we were just laughing
and chatting and catching up. We'd been doing this for
about twenty years each Easter, and Warren would take that
morning walk on Easter Sunday and meet us for lunch afterwards.
(12:53):
There was nothing out of the ordinary in what he
was doing. He had chosen the closest heike to Hellsville
where we had been staying, so he was very knowledgeable
about the area and very mindful about what he was doing,
so we never thought anything about it. We'd been out
for dinner the night before and we just talked about
(13:15):
him going to dom Dom saddle and just basically everyone said,
we'll have a great height, we'll see you for lunch tomorrow.
So when lunchtime came on the Sunday and he wasn't back,
I thought, oh, well, maybe he's delayed a little. You know,
we'll go on and he'll catch us up. And I
still remember sitting in that restaurant looking at all the
(13:38):
people walking through and there wasn't Warren there. And you
don't immediately press a panic button and say, well, where
is he, what's happened? You tend to think things like, oh,
he's having a shower, he's got back a bit late,
he'll arrive anytime soon. And he just didn't come, and
(13:58):
we all started to worry because he had a fully
charged phone. His habit was to phone if anything was delay,
and so there was no response from his phone actually
when we started phoning. So in the end we couldn't
bear it any longer and we got up and left,
went back to where our cabins were, and his car
(14:20):
wasn't there. And that's when I had a real sinking
feeling like there is something seriously wrong here. So half
stayed at the cabins and half of us went to
Dom Dom's saddle and I expected to see a crash
car off the road. The black Spurs are very busy,
windy road and they have lots of accidents, so I thought, well, maybe.
Speaker 6 (14:43):
That's what's happened.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I didn't want to go there either, but no car
was off the side and we drove into the car
park and his car was at the high end, the
first car we saw, and I thought, oh, what's going
on here as he lost his keys or something, so we.
Speaker 6 (15:02):
Looked for a backpack.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
We expected him to leave us a sign if he
was anywhere near, you know, filling in time. No backpack,
everything locked up. So we walked around for about ten
minutes and we realized this was very serious and phone
triple zero straight away, so that put us just after
four pm I think, and we were told that local
(15:27):
policts would come and they'd get the air wing out,
which was such a relief because I thought, well, there's
quite a few hours until it's dark, so we had
that extra hour or so of daylight.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Can you the landscape in there in the Australian bush
and landscape can be quite a harsh terrain. Can you
describe what that location was like? Just to help people
who were following along who might not know that area
very well, and you know when you're dealing with trying
to find war and what you were up against.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yes, it's the landscape is rainforest. It's where water is generated.
For Melbourne really has quite a bit of rainfall, although
back then it was drought. Very messy bush, a lot
of pest plants because it sits on the doorstep of
a very large city and weeds get away. It's very
(16:22):
pretty with the Mountain Ash. I can imagine why Warren
wanted to go there because he was mad about trees
and the Mountain Ash was his favorite tree in terms
of searching. Then if you go into the bush, it's
a battle really. But having said that, there's roads and
tracks throughout that you can drive a vehicle down. There's
(16:46):
fire breaks on either side. There's no reason to be
going anywhere near the bush.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
You admire it from afar.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
And we did the day before we'd gone for a
hike and we had said how beautiful the bush was,
but it was very messy, very unattractive in a way,
so we had talked about the bush.
Speaker 6 (17:07):
He was very aware of the messiness of the bush. Also,
he was only wearing shorts and a T shirt.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Now, I don't think he was up for punishment and
coming back all scratched and battered to go out for lunch.
Speaker 6 (17:20):
I mean, it's a nonsense concept.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
That he would go off the tracks. I mean, if
there's designated tracks there, he would have just stayed on
the track and admired the bush from afar.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And he had maps and GPS, he had all the
tools there just to navigate his way through. He only
wanted to go five k's in and five k's out,
and he had worked it all out to be a
three and a half hour high and then fifteen minutes
or so back to Hillsville.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
Yeah, to have lunch with you guys. Look, the initial search,
from what I've read, seemed quite promising. The air wing
was dispatched, as you said, and the police were on
site within hours. But I think you've told me before
that there was a critical assumption about the intent route
and that sent the searchers on a wrong path. I
(18:09):
guess you could say, could you explain the bush bashing
theory that started and why it was inaccurate for Warren?
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Yes, Well, I knew Warren had brought maps with him
I'd seen them on a window sill, and I knew
he was a person to carry a map, at least
one map. And when I was called to the police
control room on Easter Monday morning, quite.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
Early, we were trying to work out where he had gone.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
So I mentioned the maps and I said he downloaded
them on the Fridays. So my son was staying at
our place and I got him to check the computer
to see what maps were downloaded, and we found one
of the missing maps and it was emailed through. Unfortunately,
I didn't know that dom Dom's Saddle was the name
(18:58):
of the place. I thought it related to the geographic
feature in the middle of that map, which is Mount
dom Dom, so I said, well, maybe that's what is
meant by dom dom saddles. So unfortunately, up to the
top of Mount dom Dom there's no defined track. It's
basically you are bush bashing. But no one's told me that.
(19:21):
At the end of the first day, if someone had said, well, ze,
do you realize that there's no path up to the
top of the mountain. It's not really a huge mountain,
it's more like a giant hill, I would have said, well, no,
he wouldn't have gone that way, he would have stayed
to the tracks, and common sense tells you that, after all,
he had shorts and a T shirt on, so unfortunately
(19:45):
that place was stripped bare.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
That's why I can say he wasn't there.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
So that's where you get the concept, Oh, he liked
to bush bash, and that is so wrong to do that.
So assumptions are being made early, and it's really hard
to direct it away from something like that.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Is time goes on and your words are important, right.
I've said this in my mum's case as well, where
what people say at the very outset can carry all
the way through, and you're constantly like, we're sitting here
seventeen years later and you're still explaining the bushbashing situation
because it happened day one of the search, or the
second day after Warren went missing. Yes, how did that
(20:27):
early misunderstanding shape the outcome of the search?
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Well, they did a search in other places, but the
focus mainly was on Mount dom Dom and there was
a five day search. I mean, when I think back now,
five days, it's such a short amount of time to
go searching for someone, and I believe that wouldn't happen today.
I believe the search would be extended to be on
five days, but that's all we got, and understanding of
(20:56):
what was happening in the environment wasn't established. I can't
complain too much about the actual physical search. Search and
rescue were fantastic, and the community got behind us, and
I think there were about one hundred and sixty people searching,
but the answers just weren't coming in those five days,
(21:18):
and we went from that to really not an investigation
following because of assumptions made. And here we are seventeen
and a half years later, not really getting to the
crux of the matter, even today's.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
And you slept in your car that night, didn't you?
Was that the first night or was that the second night?
Speaker 6 (21:38):
I slept about.
Speaker 4 (21:40):
Two nights, and it was very warm. Everyone called it
an Indian summer. Very late March, it was still warm weather,
and I had to keep the window down because it
was so hot inside the car, and the mosquitoes were
buzzing around. There was a full moon, and I remember
looking down the tracks quite often expecting Warren to be
(22:02):
walking towards me, and you know, you get these moving
shadows from the trees and it sort of makes you
feel alert and oh, he must be coming now, this
is him and it never was. It was the most
tortuous couple of nights I've ever spent in my life,
and exhausting, totally exhausting because you don't sleep.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I just my heart just breaks for you. I just yeah,
I can imagine just being there waiting for him to
walk out, because that's exactly what you expected. And you
know you're sitting here today talking to me about it,
and he still hasn't come home. So you know we're
here with all your hope and all our prayers that
(22:45):
you know we can find some answers to help you.
So we're going to move into the investigation side of
and probably some missed opportunities, right for some resolution for
your family. Well, I personally talk about closure. I'm sure
you don't either, because we don't get that right. It's
(23:07):
not something that we in the missing space are privilege
to have. I guess.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
There's no resolution.
Speaker 4 (23:16):
You're just in this torment and you're looking for solving this.
That's the dominating thing. You want to bring your loved
one home for uppermost, that's the thing that tortures you
from day to day, that you can't bring your loved
one home. And then when you look at an investigation
(23:36):
that went nowhere very quickly, with so many things either
errors made or overlooking or experiential bias that was there
from the beginning, it's easy to see why I'm here
seventeen and a half years later, still asking police to
give us support. And there are three key issues that
(24:01):
stand out amongst all the other stuff that went on.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
It sort of upsets me a lot to talk about
this first one, but the fact that local residents actually
called police and reported this situation tell us a little
bit about that.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well.
Speaker 4 (24:18):
On Easter Sunday, the day that Warren went missing, residents
heard out of control shooting to an extent that was
terrifying for them. And they had six children out collecting
Easter eggs, and their house was just up the hill
but well hidden by the forest, and they rushed them
(24:40):
inside for their own protection. And even over the last
couple of years speaking to them, you can still see
it's a trauma.
Speaker 6 (24:48):
It was so out of the blue, so.
Speaker 4 (24:51):
Frightening, and nothing like you would have if there was
someone shooting deer or whatever, where you'd perhaps hear an
occasional pop. This was just the book bush going crazy.
So they were weekenders up there and they thought they'd
reported the next weekend to local police, and they were
(25:13):
very deliberate in what they said to the local police,
and they said there was a campsite there, a fresh
camp site that they felt should be checked, and no
action was taken. And out of the events that occurred
up there, you have to say, well, this extreme event
(25:34):
is really stands out. You know, it's highly probable where
I was shot in that chaos. And he knew that track,
it's called Manda Track, and he talked about it because
it's part of the National Hiking Trail which goes all
the way up to Cooktown in Queensland. He even showed
me where that hike starts from in Hellsville.
Speaker 6 (25:56):
That was why he was talking about it.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
And that's where they found the campsite on that track
that was.
Speaker 6 (26:03):
Just outside the water catchment.
Speaker 4 (26:05):
Yes, it was about two hundred and fifty meters from
where he parked his car.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
And the police what did they do when the residents
contacted the police, They did nothing.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
They did nothing, And we found out about it in
October two thousand and eight. So that's from March to October.
That's about seven or eight months, and we only found
out about it because the residents approached us after I
did a current affair and they were apologetic. They said, well,
(26:37):
we feel we need to tell you this, but we
don't want to disrupt your lives or make it difficult
for you.
Speaker 6 (26:45):
But it was a blessing.
Speaker 4 (26:46):
They did speak up and they assumed the police may
have done something, but the police did not do anything.
So already eight months down the track, you're trying to
do a catch up on an extreme event that should
have been handled a week after Warren went missing. Of
the biggest regrets that we've lost all that time.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
It's crazy to think did the police do anything in
future forward from there?
Speaker 6 (27:15):
No, they haven't done anything.
Speaker 4 (27:17):
Still today, Look, this sounds brutal, but I believe after
a five day search we were just dumped. We had
one local detective this was way out of his league
and also in country towns police dealing with all the
other stuff, and then you come along with this complex case.
(27:37):
It's too hard to handle, and so I think that's
what happened with our case. It was put in the
too hard basket, hoping that we'd go away that we
weren't going away, and we still will not go away.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
And I think that's where I sort of get on
my high horse a little bit about missing persons cases.
I don't believe should fall to general duty's police at
a local station, because they're not trained understand they probably
haven't dealt with the missing person's case before, and so
things get lost.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
Yes, And I think that if local police are dealing
with missing persons cases, it's usually the lost hiker. I
can see where the prejudice comes from that, Oh, well,
they're you know, of a certain age. Why I was
fifty seven, He must have had a heart attack or something.
All the things that were put to you which were
(28:31):
a nonsense. And I actually went to a doctor and
I said, well, I was with Warren twenty four to seven.
What you been exhibiting something if you'd had before he'd
had a massive heart attack. And the doctor said, well, yes,
there'd be a general sense of unwellness somewhere. There'd be indicators.
People don't just drop dead like that like in the movies.
(28:54):
But also common sense tells you he should have been
on a track if that was the case, And so
you're arguing with not so much arguing, but you're debating
the it's of a very fit, healthy man who would
not bushbash now, would not have a heart attack, when
in fact there should be just this open mind there
(29:16):
and there isn't. But with local police usually they're dealing
with lost people or they certainly haven't been dealing with
the case like ours.
Speaker 6 (29:27):
Ours is a very rare case.
Speaker 4 (29:29):
I understand that, but you've still got to come to
it with an open mind because shutting it down abandons
a family and you're just left there. You know that
you have to work out how to get through the
rest of your life when the way you've been treated
makes every day just a torture just to get up
and face another day of fairness and loss and ambiguity.
Speaker 6 (29:53):
It's a really horrible journey.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Yeah, it is. So there is a second investigation that
was sort of looked into as well. There was an
a psychiatric patient that had a violent intentions I guess
potentially overlapping with Warren's path around that same time, and
the man had said to be planning to kill people
(30:18):
and kill strangers. Can you explain to us the timeline error,
because I think this is important to get people to
understand as well, and the police resistance to look further
into this.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yes, well, this patient was an absconder. To actually abscond
out of the facility was this huge undertaking. You've got
to jump onto a tree and then onto a roof
and over a wall. It's not something simple like walking
out of a door. Anyway, he absconded and took someone
else's car and came to Nabathong, which is about two
(30:55):
k's north of dom dom Saddle, and he ran out
of petrol and he stayed there until he was seen
at the end of Easter Saturday on a road that
could have taken him down to dom Dom's Saddle.
Speaker 6 (31:11):
What we know is that he was picked up.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
By campers at around ten o'clock the next morning, and
he was hungry and really desperate, and they were quite
afraid of him. He was in a really bad state,
and they drove him to Warburton, where he then claimed
to have walked home to his ex's house and he
(31:33):
was readmitted to hospital. What I found out recently when
I got the police files, which I hadn't read before,
really shocked me about this man. The level of his
wanting to be violent was exposed and he was aiming
to kill countless strangers. That was really scary to read about,
(31:55):
and that all the time they were searching up at
dom Dom and the very last day when they're packing
up the search, he had been interviewed by police and
the very first thing he did was absconed. He absconded
about three times that week, and the family believed he
had been put back into hospital and was getting appropriate
care when every time the police were mentioned he'd abscone.
(32:17):
And as I said, it wasn't easy to do that.
He was in a high dependency board, and yet he
was able to trick his way out and climb over
a very high wall. But the crux came for me
when I read that he'd taken a vehicle and gone
bush for three days, and then under.
Speaker 6 (32:38):
His own volition, he came back.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
And he was in this facility for another two weeks
and never attempted to abscond again. That certainly raises huge
questions about his behavior, and he was quite gleeful that
he'd filled the police and he'd gone off for three
days and then come back. So there are serious questions
that still need answering to this day.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
And so how frustrating is for you when you get
little or no communication from the police that this was happening.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
I thought he was under control, and you know, here
he is. As soon as the search is packed up.
He's gone bush for three days, having escaped from hospital.
It's just shocking. And I find that out, you know,
seventeen years down the track, when I've finally got the
police file to tell me that. So, yes, there's elements
of that that could still be investigated today.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
And is that man still alive today?
Speaker 6 (33:33):
Do you know he suicided in two thousand and nine.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And the third one, which well, there's a couple there's
a couple more things we're going to talk about, because
I find that there's so many interesting facets of Warren's
disappearance that probably haven't been looked into properly from police.
And I'm sure that will roll you a little bit
as well, because I know it's very frustrating to go
back over that, So I apologize if that's upsetting in advance.
(34:03):
So more recently, you had HR dogs alert multiple times
on the Maunda Track area. Four separate occasions. The dogs
have alerted to finding human remains over a twenty two
month period. This is still being investigated, and we have
spoken a bit on the phone about this, and we've
(34:24):
had a few chats and the restrictions and the hurdles
you've had to face regarding this information. Can you tell
us about that?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Yes, well, yes, four times they've alerted over twenty two months,
and there's gaps of a year.
Speaker 6 (34:39):
Before they've come back.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
A black lab called Billy, who belongs to Sada, is
a very switched on dog and was taken out in
October twenty twenty three with many curtists and doing a
podcast on Warren's story, and they journeyed about six k's
and the dogs like a little machine and just sits
(35:01):
in and out of the bush and around go as.
She's also a water dog and went into water, didn't
alert at all, and then coming back she alerted in
the area that the residents had taken us to show
us where the shooting had originated from, and so that
shocked everyone.
Speaker 6 (35:20):
Of all the places to stop, it was there.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
And three more times she has gone back, and the
last two was with another dog, and the behavior is
the same. The complexity of it is that it's on
the side of a hill and they seem to be
reacting to water runoff from the hill down onto this track,
(35:45):
but they've been consistent in doing that.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
So when the Missing.
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Person squad and SADA and some members from Search and
Rescue came up there with the family recently, there was
an anthropologist there as well, we were hoping that something
might be revealed, but already there'd been fit fifteen months between.
Speaker 6 (36:06):
The last two visits.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
You know, no one's in a hurry are they to
get out there?
Speaker 6 (36:11):
Anyway?
Speaker 4 (36:12):
We had a debate over the merits of whether human
remains dogs could tell the difference between human bacteria, vegetation bacteria,
or animal bacteria. I hope that they will take it
to experts and have this clarified, because as a family,
you shouldn't be standing up there debating the merits of
(36:34):
whether these dogs.
Speaker 6 (36:35):
Work or not.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
You know that should be understood. Human remains dogs are
used all over the world. My feeling is that there's
high probability that the.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
Dogs are onto something.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
My feeling also is that there's entangled weeds and mess
that is going to make it hard to pinpoint the
exact area. So in terms of justifying bringing in a
bulldozer to strip a general area. I don't think that
will be accepted by many people.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Is that area of land protected?
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Yes? It is.
Speaker 4 (37:15):
So it's frustrating and we may feel highly that he's there,
but we can't access the.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Spot and there's no way of working like there's no
applications or things that we can do to help, you know.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I've been trying to think is their sown or is
there but I can't see that there's a solution to this.
But the police have said to me they will take
it away and get further expert opinion on it and
will listen to Sada. Sadas putting together a package to
also send to the Missing Persons squad. Unfortunately, that leaves
(37:57):
us with one out, one thing to do that I
feel is the only other way, and I'll put it
to police.
Speaker 6 (38:05):
I said that I feel that.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
We haven't been supported, that they should be doing a
publicity for us, which they have never done, going way
back to that first week of when while I went missing,
they did work, but nothing since, which is upsetting. I've
been doing it all myself, basically, and I'm exhausted after
all this time.
Speaker 6 (38:27):
And I said that.
Speaker 4 (38:28):
We should be able to talk with police about a
reward because there's a lot of unanswered stuff in amongst
all that that's never been investigated, and that leaves just
one thing that could help us, and that is people
out there who know something. There has to be someone
(38:49):
who knows something, especially if it's related to.
Speaker 6 (38:53):
The shooting event. It was so extreme.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I can't see that people would go home after Easter
and not talk about it to someone, you know, relationships
chain and I feel that someone out there, or persons
other persons are sitting on information that it's time now
to come forward and say what you know, it's just terrific.
(39:16):
We can't shut this down. We'll continue any way we
can possible, but if people can give us a bit
of peace of mind, and as I've said, it's impacting
our grandchildren now that if they had any level of decency,
they would actually help.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, And I think thinking about the shooting, it does
sort of give me the vibe that there's more than
one person there right there. Sounds like there's multiple going
off at the same time, So you'd have to think
that there would have been a few people. And even
if those people could come forward and say, well, yes,
we were there and we were doing this, but we
don't know anything, or we know something like it would
(39:55):
be very beneficial. So Zee there is currently no reward
for any information regarding Warren's disappearance.
Speaker 6 (40:05):
There's no reward.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
We need to push Victorian Police like we need to
help you and be a voice to help you push
for this. I think that's really important because I'm certain
people know.
Speaker 4 (40:19):
Yes, I mean, because of those three events, they're so
extreme and out of the ordinary and not handled properly.
There was this era with the time frame with the
site patient Warren and he could have come across and
we always said there was a two hour window of opportunity,
and the police kept saying there was only one hour.
(40:41):
And because of that, it was dropped within five days
and it should not have been dropped, especially when the
patient was absconding like that.
Speaker 6 (40:52):
It was an error made by the local detective.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Which was then passed on to Homicide, which was then
passed on to the coroner, and it was recorded in
the finding. And it was only when Valentine Smith came
on board in twenty eighteen and did a thorough review
of the case that he brought it to the attention
of the coroner. It took further years for the coroner
(41:18):
to finally alter it, and that was during the COVID years.
Speaker 6 (41:21):
I mean, where is.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
It in the whole journey we've done where someone has
stepped up and said we've got to help this family.
It just hasn't It just hasn't taken place.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Well, let's certainly put it out there into the universe,
because I think that's definitely something that should be happening.
I mean, the reality is, I'm doing this with every
case because not to bring upset or sadness to the case,
but just some reality for people who are listening to
think about it, because you know, with Warren, he's now
been missing for six three hundred and fifty five days,
(41:58):
and that is a long trauma for you Zee as
his wife, to be putting yourself through everything, your children,
your grandchildren, as you said, even you know Warren's friends.
I'm the trauma and the ambiguous feeling and the ambiguity
that we're living with extends, doesn't it. It just doesn't
(42:19):
stop with us as the next of kin or you know,
the people who are putting themselves forward, and it's very
stressful to do that. You have done such a great job,
like the amount of work and advocating you've done for
Warren is to be absolutely applauded, because you definitely stand
out for me, and, as I said to you before,
someone who I really looked up to. When you know,
(42:41):
I remember when Valentine was looking and digging deeper and
finding things, and I was like, oh, wow, that is
such good police work, you know, And it does happen,
but it's it's so rare, unfortunately, that we get that
person who's just prepared to sort of put their neck
out and actually say I'm going to do more than
the last person. Now, look, let's talk about the coroner's
(43:01):
court experience for you, because I know that's another area,
a whole other area of disappointment and stress that we
have to deal with in the missing space. But it
took you ten years to receive Warren's death certificate, and
I know you've spoken about the coroner's court being an
intimidating and unsupportive place for families. Can you describe for
(43:25):
me what that process was like and why it was
so difficult for you?
Speaker 4 (43:30):
Yes, Well, how many people end up in the corners court,
I would say very few, But I felt that that
was the way of bringing all the issues we had
out into the open, and we had been promised an inquest,
which was then taken away, and we just saw one
year after another after another just disappear with poor communication,
(43:55):
lack of empathy. We were just shocked at how things
were conducted. And in the end, after ten years, you
just say, look, I wanted over with. I'm trying to
survive without Warne's death certificate or acknowledgment.
Speaker 6 (44:10):
That he is dead.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I have battles with various institutions, even over the smallest
of things. This is traumatic and it finally came to
an end after ten years, and it was very unsatisfactory.
What I found out about Theer's Court over those years
was it was very dysfunctional. And I won't go into
(44:34):
the tragedies of what actually occurred, but the court was
actually find the maximum for an unsafe toxic workplace. Now,
all families should be able to walk into an institution
like that this and know that they will be listened to,
that there will be care taken, and above all, that
(44:54):
there will be empathy. Because we come with tragic deaths
of our loved once and that wasn't the case. I'm
told that the Coroner's court is a different place now
to then. I'm also told that the police handle things
differently to when we went through the system. But it happened,
(45:15):
and we are living with the ramifications of it, and
we're still living with unresolved grief, and we are unable
to say, well, this is what's happened to Warren one
hundred percent.
Speaker 6 (45:28):
We should not be abandoned.
Speaker 4 (45:30):
Issues need to be looked at more closely, even to
this day, because you never know how things turn around.
You know, many years later cases can be solved. It
just needs key points being highlighted and examined closely, and
luck and the willingness of people out there in the
community to step.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Up and people not giving up.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
Right, you don't have the choice, I think that's the thing.
And you would know that you don't have any other choice.
You're on this treadmill and you just have to keep
going because you're instincts tell you need this solved, you
need to bring your loved one home. And I'm getting
to the end of my life and I think, well,
(46:14):
how many people do I know who've passed away that
I've read about that they never found out what happened
to their loved one.
Speaker 6 (46:21):
And it's just a horrible, horrible journey to take.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
That's happening more and more and more, isn't it. And
I think one of the things that always I remembered
about listening to your case, you're talking about your house,
and said it was about you trying to just simply
change your address on your mortgage, and you couldn't do
that because Warren's name was actually on the documents, and
because you didn't have a death certificate, and his privacy's
(46:49):
still mattered, and you know, you couldn't speak for him.
Just the trauma that brings to a family with just
the simplest of things.
Speaker 6 (46:59):
And I had to keep paying his insurance.
Speaker 4 (47:01):
He wasn't working, but I had to keep because I
couldn't shut it out because it was his you know,
the ironies of it. So I spent eight years paying
his insurance and the whole thing is mad. But I
actually my sister's friend was working, I think with the ATO,
and there was something came in about a missing person's
(47:23):
and a family member had a query and no one
wanted to touch it because no one knew the answer,
and get being passed around and put in someone else's basket.
And got passed on again until it got to her
and she said, because of what has happened to Warren,
and I know the case really intimately, I can't pass
(47:44):
this on to someone else. I'm not responsible for this,
but I will find an answer for that family.
Speaker 6 (47:49):
So there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
Of ducking and diving and hiding away because it's all
too hard. But if you think it's hard, what do
you think it's like for a family. I couldn't settle
after Warren went missing, and I sold the house, and
I moved about three times, and of course I.
Speaker 6 (48:08):
Had to deal with the same issues every time I moved.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
I'm well settled now, but the trauma I had to
move away from a suburb we love dearly, but I
was out there on the radar and people would cross
the street if they saw me coming. And all this
because we went away for anista holiday. Like your world
is thrown into such extremes. It's I wanted to hide away,
(48:34):
I must say, for a long time. But when I
finally came out, I came out swinging and I'll just
keep doing that because I don't want any other family
to go through what we've been through.
Speaker 6 (48:44):
Sale It's horrible.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
And I think that's kind of what drives you, right,
I think if you've got that personality, and I totally
understand it's not everyone has that personality either, but I think,
you know, you're very similar to me where I just
see you just keep going, You just you get knocked down,
you get back up, you keep going, and I think
you're really you're a really strong human. Who oh, thank
(49:10):
you highly admire because this is very, very difficult. And
you know, I know your family, particularly Warren, would be
extremely proud of everything that you've done to date.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
Well, I know it's all to do with love in
the end, isn't it Like you had a love for
your mum and you also had an understanding about your
mom and I had a deep understanding. I was married
for thirty one years and he really was my soulmate
and made me laugh every day. And it's been taken away.
(49:42):
It was stolen away in the most extreme manner, and
especially when you're on holiday, you don't expect something like
that to happen. You expect to come home and continue
on with your life, and it just didn't happen.
Speaker 1 (49:56):
And I'm so sorry for that. I'm sorry you've had
to live that. You know, I was talking to you
and we were talking about that you would like to
scatter Warren's in the rockies near Bamff. I have been
to Banff. It's such a beautiful location, and I can
just imagine that he would love nothing more to do that.
But you know, you've said to me the fear is
(50:18):
of you know, it's becoming more unlikely with every passing
year because we still haven't found him yet. You know,
what would it mean to you if you could make
that happen.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
I feel it would be the final gift I could
give him if we could go back and scatter his
ashes near Bath.
Speaker 6 (50:36):
It's very sad that both his parents died.
Speaker 4 (50:38):
They lived about nine years after a while I went missing,
and it was such trauma. Warren's mum got dementia in
the end, and the doctor felt that the tragedy actually
hastened that with her. One of Warren's sisters has passed
away now and these dreams of you know, us all
(51:01):
getting together and doing something special for wine has been
ripped away bit by bit. And now with the way
the hill is up there in dom Dom's saddle, to
actually get any further with it.
Speaker 6 (51:16):
I'm thinking it won't happen.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
You've been very brave to come and chat with me, Zee,
I'm really grateful. I want to end these podcast episodes
that we're doing to bring awareness to these cases are
so important and the more we talk about it, the
more people will talk about it, and the more hope
we might find that one person who might have heard something,
(51:40):
might have seen something that can go I remember, let
me come forward and talk about it. Can you tell
us why Warren matters?
Speaker 4 (51:51):
Warren matters, like any human being on the planet, has
the right to live peacefully and live their days out,
and that was stolen away from him in his middle years.
He did not deserve what happened to him. Something was
thrust upon him in the most horrific manner when he
(52:12):
went on a morning's hike, and the tragedy of it
is really extreme, I believe. And he was a special
person to so many people, so well loved, and people
have said to me he'd light up the room whenever
he walked in. He had a great sense of humor,
a wonderful personality. He was a business owner that was
(52:35):
loved by his staff, and the staff used to always
say just treats us so equally, you wouldn't know it
was the boss. The children loved him, the extended family
loved him like he had just had special traits as
a human being. And we all have the right to
(52:55):
live peacefully and to have our death when it comes acknowledged,
and have our loved ones around. He died alone. He
died alone out there. Sorry, I don't see, and that
really breaks my heart. I've got to know the family
(53:18):
where the shooting took place, and I've said to them,
he was such beautiful people. If only he knew you
were just there, hidden by the trees, it would have
given him so much comfort. Yeah, it's terrible, terrible to
die alone when you were so loved, so many people
(53:41):
love you, so try not to cry. But his last
perments must have been just awful, and you have to
face it. And I have to say, well that that
was really terrible. What happened to him the worst, And
all he was doing was going for a morning's hike.
Speaker 1 (54:06):
Sorry, you don't apologize to me, not at all. Gosh,
it's it's so raw, isn't it. It's just it's so raw,
and you know he matters, He matters. I'm really hoping
ze that we can put this out there and we
can find some peace and some solities.
Speaker 4 (54:26):
It would help if we could bring him home or
we could you know, find answers that would help in
this journey.
Speaker 1 (54:35):
But yeah, and it's such a bit it's a bittersweet,
isn't it, because you know so many people are like, oh,
well with my mum as well. It's so sad because
you want to you want to have that element of hope,
but it's very hard. It's a hard journey and you know,
I empathize with you. So have you tried doing a
(54:57):
petition to see if we could get a reward happening with.
Speaker 4 (55:01):
Well, this is in the hands is the place at
the moment, And and I know in Western Australia they're
offering up rewards for certain cases that are missing persons
cases which really don't have as much often in terms.
Speaker 6 (55:17):
Of clues as we do.
Speaker 4 (55:19):
I really feel a reward is a way to go
with our case because we need to flush out something.
And there's no doubt when you look at the shooting,
for example, that people know.
Speaker 6 (55:32):
The other two incidents that occurred.
Speaker 4 (55:35):
There are people who probably sit on information as well, so.
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Well we can only hope. I think you know there's
good people, you know, in our space, in the missing space,
and in our communities that we're growing through Facebook. And
you know it does fall on us as the family
to keep those pushes. Otherwise they would just be a
file at sitting collecting dust. So you know, good on
(56:01):
you for being a hero and moving forward and moving
mountains to find Warren. And I wish you, thank you
every success, and hope that we get some answers.
Speaker 4 (56:14):
And I think if I can just say, it's not
just your case and my case. You don't want this
to happen to anyone else. You want your loved one understood.
You want to know their behavior, their love for family,
their skills that they had. In Warren's case, this ability
to hike through a very simple environment should have been understood.
Speaker 6 (56:39):
You just don't want.
Speaker 4 (56:41):
Other people to face the walls that you and I
have faced, watching every year go by, watching the fumbling
through by authorities when they haven't really looked at things closely.
You've got to approach it with an open mind. You
cast your net wide. You don't just bring these biases
(57:02):
into a case, especially to earl when other things have found.
You should have someone available to talk to you, to
go through things you don't hide away and hope it
will go away, because as you know, it will never
go away. When you are on this treadmill called the missing,
(57:23):
there's no part of you that can just walk away,
and so you will continue. I will continue until my
time has come because Whyine deserved it, my children deserve it,
and now my grandchildren deserve it.
Speaker 3 (57:43):
Next week on the missing matter.
Speaker 7 (57:47):
That's a tricky question to answer. I think because of
the circumstances, it's not been as conducive to having the
entire family support. My main support base has been my husband.
Without him, I wouldn't have been able to go through
this journey, and I probably wouldn't be to this day.
Speaker 3 (58:06):
It was so tough.
Speaker 7 (58:07):
I was trying to juggle a really different form of
grief while dropping my kids off at KINDI streaming with tears,
and then having to go to work face people, and
then come home and then try to still wrap my
head around all this craziness.
Speaker 6 (58:23):
That was going on.
Speaker 7 (58:25):
I had to make that decision, and that he working
on the case became a full time job because I
was like, no, what I was listening to me I
can't let this just go
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