August 11, 2025 • 19 mins
Australian prime minister Anthony Albanese has announced that Australia will recognise Palestinian statehood at the United Nations, next month.
After being told, over the weekend, of Australia’s imminent announcement, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blasted Australia - and the other countries that have recently flagged their intention to soon recognise Palestinian statehood - as being “shameful”.
Today, foreign affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Knott, on what impact this announcement could have on the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank. And whether it might further embolden Benjamin Netanyahu, to move even further away from agreeing to a cease fire in Gaza.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday,
August 11th. Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced that
Australia will recognise Palestinian statehood at the United Nations next month,
(00:23):
after being told over the weekend of Australia's imminent announcement,
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blasted Australia and the other
countries that have recently flagged their intention to soon recognise
Palestinian statehood as being shameful. Today, Foreign Affairs and national
security correspondent Matthew not on what impact this announcement could
(00:44):
have on the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and the
West Bank, and whether it might further embolden Benjamin Netanyahu
to move even further away from agreeing to a cease
fire in Gaza. So, Matt, talk us through how Prime
Minister Anthony Albanese's announcement unfolded today.
S2 (01:06):
Well, early this morning, our word really started getting out
that this was going to happen. My colleague Paul Sakaal
phone and mine started lighting up with messages about seven
730 that this announcement was going to be made. Also
that Foreign Minister Penny Wong had spoken to her Israeli
counterpart over the weekend and said this was going to happen.
(01:29):
The cabinet was meeting in Canberra today, so that's a
clear moment where this was likely to happen. It requires
cabinet approval for something like this to happen, but clearly
it was a fait accompli because it was already being
briefed out in advance. And then we did hear the
confirmation from Prime Minister Albanese that Australia was going to
(01:51):
join a growing number of countries to recognise Palestine at
the United Nations General Assembly in September.
S3 (01:58):
Today, I can confirm that at the 80th session of
the United Nations General Assembly in September, Australia will recognise
the State of Palestine. Australia will recognise the right of
the Palestinian people to a state of their own, predicated
on the commitments Australia has received from the Palestinian Authority.
(02:22):
We will work with the international community to make this
right a reality.
S1 (02:28):
Okay. Well, take us through exactly what he said or
the real key points, because we've been wondering this for
weeks as global momentum has built with increasing numbers of
countries who have stated their intention to recognise Palestinian statehood.
So what did Albanese say? And were there any conditions
or caveats on his recognition of a Palestinian state?
S2 (02:47):
Yeah. So the prime minister really framed Australia as moving
as part of the international community. He's noting that this
isn't just Australia doing something in and of itself that
other countries are moving in this direction and I think
more are going to join. We saw basically as he
was standing up, New Zealand say they think they'll do
(03:08):
something similar. We might see other nations move as well.
I think he spoke a quite from the heart in
some ways where he spoke about that. You can't wait
for a day that will never come.
S3 (03:22):
The toll of the status quo is growing by the
day and it can be measured in innocent lives. The
world cannot wait for success to be guaranteed. That only
means waiting for a day that will never come.
S2 (03:37):
He spoke about the devastation that we've seen in Gaza,
and that you just can't sit around when this is
happening and wait for something that may never happen. So
he says, essentially, I see it as the train has
left the station in the international community to do this,
and Australia has to be a part of moving the
world towards a better place. He did speak about conditions
(04:01):
that the Palestinian Authority has given about holding elections next year,
about democratizing that any Palestinian state would be demilitarized. It
wouldn't have an army that could pose a threat to Israel,
and also that Hamas would play no part in it. Now,
many people would say, well, these are promises. These are words.
(04:22):
How you would actually put these into effect is much
more complicated. But he's taking them as enough to to
get Australia over the line here. Crucially, he revealed that
he spoke at the end of last week to Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. We didn't know that this had happened.
The two leaders haven't had much to do with each other,
(04:42):
but he spoke to him to to give him warning
that this announcement was coming.
S1 (04:47):
Well, I wanted to really ask you about his conversation
with Benjamin Netanyahu because, like you say, we didn't know
that until the press conference this morning that they'd had
that conversation on Thursday. So tell me, I guess, about
what the main points were that they spoke about because
you mentioned just before. Albanese saying, well, there's no point
in waiting until a day that's never going to come.
S2 (05:07):
Yes. So he made Australia's position clear that Australia believes
a two states is the crucial way that this conflict
will be solved, that Israelis will not be able to
live in peace and security unless there is also a
Palestinian state where where Palestinians can govern their own affairs. Now,
that's not shared by the majority of people right now
(05:30):
in Israel. But this is the long standing position of Australia.
And he said, we're trying to drive forward progress towards
that outcome. Prime Minister Netanyahu held a press conference of
his own where he was asked about exactly this. And
he says he thinks that these type of moves from
countries like Australia are shameful, that they're counterproductive. He made
very clear that they will not influence him or his government.
(05:53):
He's saying, basically, this is our country, our part of
the world. We're the ones who have to live here.
We're still fighting a war. We're still trying to get
Israeli hostages back. Essentially what the international community does, we
disagree with it. We don't like it, but it's not
going to influence us. So see two leaders coming from very,
(06:13):
very different perspectives. They're not on the same page. Albanese
still says that we're a friend of Israel, but it's
essentially from the perspective of if you're a friend, you
tell your friends when you disagree with them. And this
is a profound disagreement about the way the war has
been run and where Israel is heading in terms of
a two state solution.
S1 (06:34):
And how significant is this announcement that Albanese has made today.
S2 (06:38):
For Australian policy? This is a very significant decision. It's
a decision that has been a long time coming. It's
taken really over a decade within the Labor Party. There's
been a lot of activism for this to happen. I
think you could start the clock back in the Gillard
government when Bob Carr, a letter push for Australia to
(06:58):
support observer status for for Palestine at the United Nations.
That was a big deal at the time. We broke
with America that didn't want it. Julia Gillard didn't want
to do it herself. This was a big change for Australia.
And since then, within the Labor Party, which has been
moving to the left, there's been growing support to recognise
Palestine and it's been passed at successive Labour National conferences
(07:21):
as part of official party policy. Um, and we've seen
Penny Wong building the groundwork to this for over a year.
But the thought for countries like Australia and the United
States has traditionally been that we would recognise the Palestinian
state at the end of a peace process, that this
is something where holding out as a prize, as an
(07:42):
incentive for the two parties to get together and make
the difficult compromises that would be necessary. Uh, now that's
been thrown out the window, because clearly the two state
solution process was going nowhere. The peace process was going nowhere. Um,
the current Israeli government has no interest in it, and
many people also point out that throughout history, Palestinian leaders
(08:05):
have turned down or walked away from negotiations. So this is,
I think, a recognition that just things were not working.
We're going to try something different. Yeah. But for us,
it's a big change from our long standing position and
also in terms of how we see ourselves in the world,
our relationship with the United States. You know, it shows
(08:26):
we're not walking in lockstep with the United States on
this issue in any way.
S1 (08:30):
And so why did Albanese make the statement now? Because
obviously it's been sort of teased. You know, him and
Penny Wong have been sort of talking about making moves
towards this for for many, many months. So why do
you think he did it now?
S2 (08:43):
I think with the United Nations still a few weeks away,
he realized there's no need to string this out any longer.
That Australia is going to do it. They're just being
bombarded with questions every day. They were making clear for
several weeks now that they wanted to do it using
phrases like it's a matter of when, not if. Really
(09:04):
trying to lay the groundwork for this issue to prepare
people so that it didn't come as a surprise. And
most people, I don't think today would have come as
a surprise. They've made clear it was coming. Uh, but look,
this isn't necessarily Australia's timing aware, I think jumping aboard
a train that's moving here that really most recently Emmanuel
(09:26):
Macron set moving. And that has been pretty successful at
encouraging other countries to do something that they'd been reluctant
to do. And Australia leaders constantly say we're not a
central player in this region. What we do on our own,
often in and of itself, doesn't matter. So there's there's
(09:47):
a global coalition. We want to be a part of that, um,
to try and make something happen here, to try and
breathe new life into a process that's become very dormant
and pretty hopeless.
S1 (09:59):
And I wonder if there was any feeling on behalf
of Albanese or his government that if he doesn't make
an announcement now, perhaps, you know you'll be on the
wrong side of history, because you and I were talking
right before we started recording that it was just on
July 27th, that Albanese was on the ABC program Insiders,
and he was asked, are you about to recognise Palestinian statehood?
And he said, are we about to do that? No,
we are not. That was just on July 27th. So
(10:22):
like what happened between July 27th and today?
S2 (10:25):
Yes. And so the way he was speaking in that
interview gave a lot of people the impression that he
wasn't in a rush to do this at all. He
was more talking about, uh, the issues with it, the
complications with it, rather than saying, this is something we
want to do quickly now. Uh, we still need to
know more about all the negotiations that have happened behind
(10:48):
the scenes. But since that interview are we saw the
UK make a commitment, we saw Canada make a commitment.
These are countries that Australia views itself as even more
than France, I would say as sympatico with, and it
was pretty clear that the time was now, even if Albanese,
(11:08):
who's pretty cautious in this area, has doubts about how
much will be achieved, now's really the time to do it,
whether we like it or not. So I think that's
really what's changed in the past few weeks, is the
recognition that now's the time in which they can form
part of a global coalition. Um, notwithstanding all the the
(11:29):
doubts about what it will practically achieve.
S1 (11:39):
We'll be right back. And so what have we heard
from Palestinian and Israeli groups here in Australia?
S2 (11:49):
The reaction is interesting. Jewish groups mostly are opposed to this.
The pro-Israel groups that we often hear from in the
media have serious concerns about this. The one you hear
a lot is that this is really a reward for
Hamas terrorism. Hamas itself has claimed credit for moves like
this that are happening in the international community, that the
(12:10):
war in Gaza has brought renewed focus to the Palestinian cause. Ah,
they say that now isn't the right time to do this. Uh,
there's still a war going on. The Israeli public is
not interested in a two state solution. Now, the idea
is that this international community momentum is totally divorced from
(12:31):
the reality on the ground there, the points they would make, um,
as opposed to Palestinian advocates. That's interesting because, um, for example,
the main Palestinian lobby group, uh, the Australia, Palestine Advocacy Network, um,
is not that enthusiastic about this. They basically put it
in the symbolic camp, uh, that this is a nice thing,
(12:53):
but not much in and of itself. They are more
interested in Australia sanctioning, uh, the Israeli government and doing
things like an arms embargo on the parts in F-35
bombers that they're not super excited about this. But then
you have other forces within labor in the pro-Palestinian movement.
It has been the most vocal member of that who
are saying that this is an important thing. It's it shows, uh,
(13:18):
the Palestinian people that Australia cares about them, that Australia
sees them, that Australia recognizes their aspirations to autonomy and self-determination.
So it will definitely be welcomed and particularly by the
the Palestinian Authority.
S1 (13:34):
And I guess I wanted to return, just for a moment,
to albaneses conversation with Netanyahu. Do you think there's concern,
I guess, that this announcement could have the opposite impact
on what Albanese actually wants, you know, that it would
actually embolden Netanyahu to continue a military takeover of Gaza,
considering that Netanyahu's announcement on the weekend that he plans
to take over the 25% of Gaza that the Israeli
(13:56):
military doesn't already have control of. That came after the
announcements by France and UK to move against what Israel
is doing. So yeah. Is there much concern that this
announcement might embolden Netanyahu?
S2 (14:09):
Well, they certainly haven't affected him or they certainly haven't
helped change, it seems, how he's thinking about the war. Uh,
Netanyahu has a lot of other considerations to think about.
He cares about the international community, and so does the
Israeli system. But they've got very practical issues to think
about this war. What's being achieved? It's essentially going round
(14:33):
in circles at a very high cost. Uh, he definitely
doesn't want to concede any kind of defeat. There are
still Israeli hostages there. Um, the debate that's playing out
very ferociously, also in Israel about how to go about
the war, whether to wrap up the war, how to
extract Israel from this situation in which it's found itself, um,
(14:53):
is separate to this recognition, uh, this recognition Conversation within Israel.
This is seen as a bit of a sideshow and
a distraction from the big practical issues that are happening
right now.
S1 (15:06):
Interesting. And I wanted to ask you, could Australia, recognising Palestine,
actually worsen the impact for Palestinians on the ground and
for the remaining Israeli hostages in Gaza? Because I was
very intrigued by one thing that Albanese said, because he
said this is about much more about drawing a line
on a map. This is about delivering a lifeline to
the people of Gaza. So he's signalling there. He really
wants practical aid going on to the ground in Gaza.
(15:29):
That's what he wants this to lead to. So what
do you think the chances are that this will either
have a good practical impact for people on the ground there,
or could it have the opposite impact, I guess.
S2 (15:39):
I can't see any there's no practical impact on this
on the short term in terms of the war, in
terms of Gaza. That's part of the issue here. It's
not necessarily going to hurt. It's essentially operating in this
different sphere of the United Nations of global recognition, very
different to the idea of how many aid trucks can
you get in. How is the war being fought? The
(16:00):
issue has been raised of whether Hamas has been emboldened
by some of these international moves that it seems to
have recently really dug its heels in and not wanted
to negotiate, because it's getting energy from the idea that
Palestinian recognition is on the agenda. Um, how how much
that's true is unclear. It's hard to get much insight
(16:23):
into this very murky organization, but they certainly seem to
have been playing hardball recently. Um, but but we still
see talk about whether Israel and Hamas can get back
to the negotiating table. This idea of taking over Gaza
City isn't supposed to take effect until October 7th, the
(16:44):
second anniversary. So there's a lot of time leading up
to that in which there can still be negotiations. Um,
but look, what Australia's just saying is that it doesn't
want to let the idea of a two state solution
wither away and completely die. It really wants to keep
it on life support. It wants to keep it alive
(17:04):
in the discourse as a possibility, and that if nothing
is done, it will simply not even be something that
can be thought of as a dream, as a goal
in the future.
S1 (17:13):
And do you think the next few days or next
week or so might be something really to watch, to
see if other countries join this? I guess almost global
coalition of countries who are calling for Palestinian statehood. Because
I thought it was interesting in the press conference, Albanese
had said. Or perhaps it was Penny Wong said, that yes,
this announcement today has been made after many conversations with
the allies who have done this. So do you think
(17:36):
there's lots of other conversations happening on the ground or
have been happening that perhaps there's other countries that are
imminently going to make a similar announcement?
S2 (17:44):
Yeah, I think New Zealand would be the most likely
one from what they've said today. They're obviously influenced by
Australia a lot. They're looking at us as a like
minded nation, just as we look at countries like Canada
and the UK, a country like Japan will be really
interesting because they've come at it from a similar point
of view to Australia as close security allies of the US,
(18:06):
and tending to move more in lockstep with America. Japan
hasn't said what they're going to do. That would be
a big deal at the United Nations as well. The issue, though,
is that the United States is the key player here.
They're on the Security Council. You know, they can veto
a Palestine getting into the United Nations as a state. And,
(18:27):
you know, certainly under the Trump administration, they're not supporting
any of these moves. So that's a crucial, crucial factor
without the United States. And all of this is going
to have a limited impact on really what it means
for Palestinian statehood.
S1 (18:48):
Well, Matt, I wanted to recognize up front it was
you and our colleague Paul Siegel, who, of course, broke
this story that Australia was imminently going to make this
announcement this morning. So we're very lucky to have you
to take us through this. So thank you so much
for your time.
S2 (19:00):
No worries at all.
S1 (19:10):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(19:32):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our morning newsletter to receive
a summary of the day's most important news in your
inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm
Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday,
August 11th. Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanese has announced that
Australia will recognise Palestinian statehood at the United Nations next month,
(00:23):
after being told over the weekend of Australia's imminent announcement,
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu blasted Australia and the other
countries that have recently flagged their intention to soon recognise
Palestinian statehood as being shameful. Today, Foreign Affairs and national
security correspondent Matthew not on what impact this announcement could
(00:44):
have on the lives of Palestinians in Gaza and the
West Bank, and whether it might further embolden Benjamin Netanyahu
to move even further away from agreeing to a cease
fire in Gaza. So, Matt, talk us through how Prime
Minister Anthony Albanese's announcement unfolded today.
S2 (01:06):
Well, early this morning, our word really started getting out
that this was going to happen. My colleague Paul Sakaal
phone and mine started lighting up with messages about seven
730 that this announcement was going to be made. Also
that Foreign Minister Penny Wong had spoken to her Israeli
counterpart over the weekend and said this was going to happen.
(01:29):
The cabinet was meeting in Canberra today, so that's a
clear moment where this was likely to happen. It requires
cabinet approval for something like this to happen, but clearly
it was a fait accompli because it was already being
briefed out in advance. And then we did hear the
confirmation from Prime Minister Albanese that Australia was going to
(01:51):
join a growing number of countries to recognise Palestine at
the United Nations General Assembly in September.
S3 (01:58):
Today, I can confirm that at the 80th session of
the United Nations General Assembly in September, Australia will recognise
the State of Palestine. Australia will recognise the right of
the Palestinian people to a state of their own, predicated
on the commitments Australia has received from the Palestinian Authority.
(02:22):
We will work with the international community to make this
right a reality.
S1 (02:28):
Okay. Well, take us through exactly what he said or
the real key points, because we've been wondering this for
weeks as global momentum has built with increasing numbers of
countries who have stated their intention to recognise Palestinian statehood.
So what did Albanese say? And were there any conditions
or caveats on his recognition of a Palestinian state?
S2 (02:47):
Yeah. So the prime minister really framed Australia as moving
as part of the international community. He's noting that this
isn't just Australia doing something in and of itself that
other countries are moving in this direction and I think
more are going to join. We saw basically as he
was standing up, New Zealand say they think they'll do
(03:08):
something similar. We might see other nations move as well.
I think he spoke a quite from the heart in
some ways where he spoke about that. You can't wait
for a day that will never come.
S3 (03:22):
The toll of the status quo is growing by the
day and it can be measured in innocent lives. The
world cannot wait for success to be guaranteed. That only
means waiting for a day that will never come.
S2 (03:37):
He spoke about the devastation that we've seen in Gaza,
and that you just can't sit around when this is
happening and wait for something that may never happen. So
he says, essentially, I see it as the train has
left the station in the international community to do this,
and Australia has to be a part of moving the
world towards a better place. He did speak about conditions
(04:01):
that the Palestinian Authority has given about holding elections next year,
about democratizing that any Palestinian state would be demilitarized. It
wouldn't have an army that could pose a threat to Israel,
and also that Hamas would play no part in it. Now,
many people would say, well, these are promises. These are words.
(04:22):
How you would actually put these into effect is much
more complicated. But he's taking them as enough to to
get Australia over the line here. Crucially, he revealed that
he spoke at the end of last week to Israeli
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. We didn't know that this had happened.
The two leaders haven't had much to do with each other,
(04:42):
but he spoke to him to to give him warning
that this announcement was coming.
S1 (04:47):
Well, I wanted to really ask you about his conversation
with Benjamin Netanyahu because, like you say, we didn't know
that until the press conference this morning that they'd had
that conversation on Thursday. So tell me, I guess, about
what the main points were that they spoke about because
you mentioned just before. Albanese saying, well, there's no point
in waiting until a day that's never going to come.
S2 (05:07):
Yes. So he made Australia's position clear that Australia believes
a two states is the crucial way that this conflict
will be solved, that Israelis will not be able to
live in peace and security unless there is also a
Palestinian state where where Palestinians can govern their own affairs. Now,
that's not shared by the majority of people right now
(05:30):
in Israel. But this is the long standing position of Australia.
And he said, we're trying to drive forward progress towards
that outcome. Prime Minister Netanyahu held a press conference of
his own where he was asked about exactly this. And
he says he thinks that these type of moves from
countries like Australia are shameful, that they're counterproductive. He made
very clear that they will not influence him or his government.
(05:53):
He's saying, basically, this is our country, our part of
the world. We're the ones who have to live here.
We're still fighting a war. We're still trying to get
Israeli hostages back. Essentially what the international community does, we
disagree with it. We don't like it, but it's not
going to influence us. So see two leaders coming from very,
(06:13):
very different perspectives. They're not on the same page. Albanese
still says that we're a friend of Israel, but it's
essentially from the perspective of if you're a friend, you
tell your friends when you disagree with them. And this
is a profound disagreement about the way the war has
been run and where Israel is heading in terms of
a two state solution.
S1 (06:34):
And how significant is this announcement that Albanese has made today.
S2 (06:38):
For Australian policy? This is a very significant decision. It's
a decision that has been a long time coming. It's
taken really over a decade within the Labor Party. There's
been a lot of activism for this to happen. I
think you could start the clock back in the Gillard
government when Bob Carr, a letter push for Australia to
(06:58):
support observer status for for Palestine at the United Nations.
That was a big deal at the time. We broke
with America that didn't want it. Julia Gillard didn't want
to do it herself. This was a big change for Australia.
And since then, within the Labor Party, which has been
moving to the left, there's been growing support to recognise
Palestine and it's been passed at successive Labour National conferences
(07:21):
as part of official party policy. Um, and we've seen
Penny Wong building the groundwork to this for over a year.
But the thought for countries like Australia and the United
States has traditionally been that we would recognise the Palestinian
state at the end of a peace process, that this
is something where holding out as a prize, as an
(07:42):
incentive for the two parties to get together and make
the difficult compromises that would be necessary. Uh, now that's
been thrown out the window, because clearly the two state
solution process was going nowhere. The peace process was going nowhere. Um,
the current Israeli government has no interest in it, and
many people also point out that throughout history, Palestinian leaders
(08:05):
have turned down or walked away from negotiations. So this is,
I think, a recognition that just things were not working.
We're going to try something different. Yeah. But for us,
it's a big change from our long standing position and
also in terms of how we see ourselves in the world,
our relationship with the United States. You know, it shows
(08:26):
we're not walking in lockstep with the United States on
this issue in any way.
S1 (08:30):
And so why did Albanese make the statement now? Because
obviously it's been sort of teased. You know, him and
Penny Wong have been sort of talking about making moves
towards this for for many, many months. So why do
you think he did it now?
S2 (08:43):
I think with the United Nations still a few weeks away,
he realized there's no need to string this out any longer.
That Australia is going to do it. They're just being
bombarded with questions every day. They were making clear for
several weeks now that they wanted to do it using
phrases like it's a matter of when, not if. Really
(09:04):
trying to lay the groundwork for this issue to prepare
people so that it didn't come as a surprise. And
most people, I don't think today would have come as
a surprise. They've made clear it was coming. Uh, but look,
this isn't necessarily Australia's timing aware, I think jumping aboard
a train that's moving here that really most recently Emmanuel
(09:26):
Macron set moving. And that has been pretty successful at
encouraging other countries to do something that they'd been reluctant
to do. And Australia leaders constantly say we're not a
central player in this region. What we do on our own,
often in and of itself, doesn't matter. So there's there's
(09:47):
a global coalition. We want to be a part of that, um,
to try and make something happen here, to try and
breathe new life into a process that's become very dormant
and pretty hopeless.
S1 (09:59):
And I wonder if there was any feeling on behalf
of Albanese or his government that if he doesn't make
an announcement now, perhaps, you know you'll be on the
wrong side of history, because you and I were talking
right before we started recording that it was just on
July 27th, that Albanese was on the ABC program Insiders,
and he was asked, are you about to recognise Palestinian statehood?
And he said, are we about to do that? No,
we are not. That was just on July 27th. So
(10:22):
like what happened between July 27th and today?
S2 (10:25):
Yes. And so the way he was speaking in that
interview gave a lot of people the impression that he
wasn't in a rush to do this at all. He
was more talking about, uh, the issues with it, the
complications with it, rather than saying, this is something we
want to do quickly now. Uh, we still need to
know more about all the negotiations that have happened behind
(10:48):
the scenes. But since that interview are we saw the
UK make a commitment, we saw Canada make a commitment.
These are countries that Australia views itself as even more
than France, I would say as sympatico with, and it
was pretty clear that the time was now, even if Albanese,
(11:08):
who's pretty cautious in this area, has doubts about how
much will be achieved, now's really the time to do it,
whether we like it or not. So I think that's
really what's changed in the past few weeks, is the
recognition that now's the time in which they can form
part of a global coalition. Um, notwithstanding all the the
(11:29):
doubts about what it will practically achieve.
S1 (11:39):
We'll be right back. And so what have we heard
from Palestinian and Israeli groups here in Australia?
S2 (11:49):
The reaction is interesting. Jewish groups mostly are opposed to this.
The pro-Israel groups that we often hear from in the
media have serious concerns about this. The one you hear
a lot is that this is really a reward for
Hamas terrorism. Hamas itself has claimed credit for moves like
this that are happening in the international community, that the
(12:10):
war in Gaza has brought renewed focus to the Palestinian cause. Ah,
they say that now isn't the right time to do this. Uh,
there's still a war going on. The Israeli public is
not interested in a two state solution. Now, the idea
is that this international community momentum is totally divorced from
(12:31):
the reality on the ground there, the points they would make, um,
as opposed to Palestinian advocates. That's interesting because, um, for example,
the main Palestinian lobby group, uh, the Australia, Palestine Advocacy Network, um,
is not that enthusiastic about this. They basically put it
in the symbolic camp, uh, that this is a nice thing,
(12:53):
but not much in and of itself. They are more
interested in Australia sanctioning, uh, the Israeli government and doing
things like an arms embargo on the parts in F-35
bombers that they're not super excited about this. But then
you have other forces within labor in the pro-Palestinian movement.
It has been the most vocal member of that who
are saying that this is an important thing. It's it shows, uh,
(13:18):
the Palestinian people that Australia cares about them, that Australia
sees them, that Australia recognizes their aspirations to autonomy and self-determination.
So it will definitely be welcomed and particularly by the
the Palestinian Authority.
S1 (13:34):
And I guess I wanted to return, just for a moment,
to albaneses conversation with Netanyahu. Do you think there's concern,
I guess, that this announcement could have the opposite impact
on what Albanese actually wants, you know, that it would
actually embolden Netanyahu to continue a military takeover of Gaza,
considering that Netanyahu's announcement on the weekend that he plans
to take over the 25% of Gaza that the Israeli
(13:56):
military doesn't already have control of. That came after the
announcements by France and UK to move against what Israel
is doing. So yeah. Is there much concern that this
announcement might embolden Netanyahu?
S2 (14:09):
Well, they certainly haven't affected him or they certainly haven't
helped change, it seems, how he's thinking about the war. Uh,
Netanyahu has a lot of other considerations to think about.
He cares about the international community, and so does the
Israeli system. But they've got very practical issues to think
about this war. What's being achieved? It's essentially going round
(14:33):
in circles at a very high cost. Uh, he definitely
doesn't want to concede any kind of defeat. There are
still Israeli hostages there. Um, the debate that's playing out
very ferociously, also in Israel about how to go about
the war, whether to wrap up the war, how to
extract Israel from this situation in which it's found itself, um,
(14:53):
is separate to this recognition, uh, this recognition Conversation within Israel.
This is seen as a bit of a sideshow and
a distraction from the big practical issues that are happening
right now.
S1 (15:06):
Interesting. And I wanted to ask you, could Australia, recognising Palestine,
actually worsen the impact for Palestinians on the ground and
for the remaining Israeli hostages in Gaza? Because I was
very intrigued by one thing that Albanese said, because he
said this is about much more about drawing a line
on a map. This is about delivering a lifeline to
the people of Gaza. So he's signalling there. He really
wants practical aid going on to the ground in Gaza.
(15:29):
That's what he wants this to lead to. So what
do you think the chances are that this will either
have a good practical impact for people on the ground there,
or could it have the opposite impact, I guess.
S2 (15:39):
I can't see any there's no practical impact on this
on the short term in terms of the war, in
terms of Gaza. That's part of the issue here. It's
not necessarily going to hurt. It's essentially operating in this
different sphere of the United Nations of global recognition, very
different to the idea of how many aid trucks can
you get in. How is the war being fought? The
(16:00):
issue has been raised of whether Hamas has been emboldened
by some of these international moves that it seems to
have recently really dug its heels in and not wanted
to negotiate, because it's getting energy from the idea that
Palestinian recognition is on the agenda. Um, how how much
that's true is unclear. It's hard to get much insight
(16:23):
into this very murky organization, but they certainly seem to
have been playing hardball recently. Um, but but we still
see talk about whether Israel and Hamas can get back
to the negotiating table. This idea of taking over Gaza
City isn't supposed to take effect until October 7th, the
(16:44):
second anniversary. So there's a lot of time leading up
to that in which there can still be negotiations. Um,
but look, what Australia's just saying is that it doesn't
want to let the idea of a two state solution
wither away and completely die. It really wants to keep
it on life support. It wants to keep it alive
(17:04):
in the discourse as a possibility, and that if nothing
is done, it will simply not even be something that
can be thought of as a dream, as a goal
in the future.
S1 (17:13):
And do you think the next few days or next
week or so might be something really to watch, to
see if other countries join this? I guess almost global
coalition of countries who are calling for Palestinian statehood. Because
I thought it was interesting in the press conference, Albanese
had said. Or perhaps it was Penny Wong said, that yes,
this announcement today has been made after many conversations with
the allies who have done this. So do you think
(17:36):
there's lots of other conversations happening on the ground or
have been happening that perhaps there's other countries that are
imminently going to make a similar announcement?
S2 (17:44):
Yeah, I think New Zealand would be the most likely
one from what they've said today. They're obviously influenced by
Australia a lot. They're looking at us as a like
minded nation, just as we look at countries like Canada
and the UK, a country like Japan will be really
interesting because they've come at it from a similar point
of view to Australia as close security allies of the US,
(18:06):
and tending to move more in lockstep with America. Japan
hasn't said what they're going to do. That would be
a big deal at the United Nations as well. The issue, though,
is that the United States is the key player here.
They're on the Security Council. You know, they can veto
a Palestine getting into the United Nations as a state. And,
(18:27):
you know, certainly under the Trump administration, they're not supporting
any of these moves. So that's a crucial, crucial factor
without the United States. And all of this is going
to have a limited impact on really what it means
for Palestinian statehood.
S1 (18:48):
Well, Matt, I wanted to recognize up front it was
you and our colleague Paul Siegel, who, of course, broke
this story that Australia was imminently going to make this
announcement this morning. So we're very lucky to have you
to take us through this. So thank you so much
for your time.
S2 (19:00):
No worries at all.
S1 (19:10):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(19:32):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our morning newsletter to receive
a summary of the day's most important news in your
inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm
Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.