November 27, 2025 • 25 mins
Well, Barnaby Joyce finally announced his resignation from the Nationals this week, paving his way to join One Nation, in a week where Pauline Hanson recycled a burqa stunt from 2017.And it’s amid this turmoil that we have a special guest with chief political correspondent Paul Sakkal and Jacqueline Maley - Opposition Leader Sussan Ley.
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, November 28th.
This week we have a very special guest in our
Canberra studio with our chief political correspondent, Paul Satchell. A
very big inside politics. Welcome to the opposition leader, Sussan Ley. Hello, Susan.
S2 (00:23):
Thanks, jacki for having me. And it's a pleasure to
talk to you and Paul, who's right in front of
me here in the studio.
S3 (00:28):
Welcome. Good to have you.
S1 (00:29):
Yeah. And I'm here in Sydney. Now, before we get
into anything, can you tell us what your opinion is
on cooking Wagyu steak on a sandwich grill in an
AIF office?
S2 (00:38):
I think that's a crime against steak cooking. And the
long line up of celebrity chefs inside and outside this building. Um,
but maybe it tasted amazing. Um, I just passed Barnaby
in the corridor, actually, and he's about to make a
statement in the house.
S3 (00:54):
Have you been chatting to him in recent weeks about this,
or is this not. You're just not engaged with him?
S2 (00:58):
Look, I haven't engaged about this. Um, Barnaby and I
are colleagues and friends. He came to my mum's funeral. Uh,
he checked on me during that difficult time, but, uh,
we we've never come from the same political party, and
he's free to do his own thing, and I'll leave
him to it.
S1 (01:14):
We should jump in here for listeners who won't understand
what you're talking about. You're talking about Barnaby Joyce, basically. Um, after,
you know, a few hours after Pauline Hanson did her
stunt with, um, walking into the Senate with a burqa
for which she was suspended, he went and broke bread
with her and they they controversially cooked Wagyu steaks on the, uh,
sandwich press in Pauline Hanson's office. And Barnaby Joyce, as
we record this podcast, is basically preparing to defect from
(01:36):
the coalition to One Nation. How do you think all
of that, um, sort of looks to, from, from a
voter's perspective? Susan, you've got Barnaby Joyce cosying up to
One Nation defecting from the party he used to lead
at a moment when she's done quite a controversial and
many people would say xenophobic stunt with the burka.
S2 (01:56):
I lead the Liberal Party and I'm responsible for leading
the opposition. However, the nationals are their own party and
individuals can make their own decisions. And I want to
be really clear about that, because here's a good example.
When we developed our Affordable Energy Responsible Emissions plan, we
worked out where we wanted to be in the Liberal
Party room, and we came together later with the Nationals
(02:18):
in Coalition. And that's because I believe that the Liberals
and Nationals are always stronger together fighting the Labor Party.
But I'm certainly not accountable for their actions as individuals.
And again, I make no comment on what Barnaby wishes
to do.
S4 (02:35):
So after 30 years with the National Party, I am
resigning from the party and that really leaves me with
a heavy heart and I apologise for all the hurt
that that will cause other people I really do.
S2 (02:46):
With respect to the stunt, jacki, it just goes to
show how brittle the politics of One Nation are. That
is not the forum for cheap stunts. It's the Senate
of Australia, and it diminished the important role the Senate
does have in our democracy. And it's not what Australians
(03:06):
expect of the national parliament.
S3 (03:08):
Was it racist and offensive that the stunt? Do you think.
S2 (03:10):
It was offensive? I do not want to see anyone's religion,
mocked president.
S5 (03:17):
A dress code might be a choice of the senators,
but racism should not be the choice of the Senate.
S6 (03:24):
It's disgraceful, Senator. It is a shame.
S5 (03:28):
A racist senator.
S6 (03:29):
Senator.
S5 (03:30):
Displaying blatant racism and Islamophobia.
S2 (03:34):
And again, our society is generous and welcoming of all faiths.
But rather than focus on whatever the message might have been,
I really take a front offence to the forum in
which it was done. There are many forums to have
a view and the the democracy that we share is
(03:57):
about the contest of ideas. Sure, but not on not
in the Senate. I mean, Australians expect better of us.
And the point is this, that when I leave this building,
I mean, I mean, I know you guys ask me
a lot of questions that are sort of a bit
inside the Beltway. But when I leave this building, no
one out there asks me these questions because.
S1 (04:15):
They don't ask you.
S2 (04:16):
About struggling.
S1 (04:17):
They don't ask about Pauline Hanson. Okay, well, let's talk
about something.
S2 (04:20):
They don't they they they I have to say this.
I do a lot of listening. We all do a
lot of talking in here. When we leave, we really
need to do a lot of listening. And I'm listening
to Australians who are struggling. They can't pay their power bills.
They're worried about their costs over Christmas. They've just seen
the latest inflation figures. And while they don't talk about
it the way we would, they just know that everything
(04:40):
is going up and their interest rates do not look
like they're coming down.
S1 (04:44):
Okay. So Pauline Hanson says she was trying to make
a point about immigration. And immigration is something that you
also want to have a debate about. So we've got
neo-Nazis who are gathering outside New South Wales Parliament House,
and House, and we've got this sort of horrible thing
that Pauline Hanson did in the Senate with the burqa.
I want to ask you, have you seriously thought about
or how have you reflected on how you can talk
about immigration and have a sensible debate about immigration while
(05:06):
making sure you don't sort of unleash these xenophobic genies
from the bottle, if you like.
S2 (05:11):
By recognizing the vast majority of Australians are people of
goodwill who live their lives and want others to be
free to live theirs. And we have made it very
clear what we think about neo-Nazi behaviour. And finally, it
looks like the New South Wales premier has engaged enough
(05:31):
with the issue to make sure these types of hideous
displays do not happen. And I reflect back to the
first one that was on the steps of the opera
House after October the 7th, with respect to migration. I've
said that by the end of the year, we will
outline our principles, and it's important that we do that.
But I guess in answer to your question about how
(05:54):
you talk about the issue. I make it very clear
that the challenges we're facing with infrastructure, with pressures on housing,
on public transport, the daily commute to work on hospitals
and schools are not the fault of any migrant or
migrant community. They are failures of governments to deliver infrastructure.
S3 (06:14):
I wonder on this issue how you avoid another schism
between the left and the right of the party. Andrew Bragg,
the housing uh, shadow spokesman, on Thursday morning said that
immigration can't be talked about as the key driver of
the housing crisis. It's one factor among many. Garth Hamilton,
the LNP backbencher on the conservative flank, said your immigration
(06:35):
policy should be entirely geared around how many houses are
being built and how many migrants are coming in to
live in them. Do you agree with Andrew Bragg that
it's one driver among many, but not the key driver
of the housing shortage or housing crisis?
S6 (06:46):
It is a.
S2 (06:47):
Driver and it is an important driver, but energy is
a massive and increasingly bigger driver, and we're only just
seeing that start to open up.
S3 (06:56):
In the housing.
S2 (06:57):
In the housing market, because the reason why people are
building less houses is many. But one of them is
the cost of building a new house. So what the groups,
the Urban Institute and others say, um, the reason why
we're seeing less houses is because people are going to
buy the existing stock of housing, which they know isn't
(07:19):
going to go up as much, even though it is
still increasing in cost as actually building a new house,
and that the cost of building a new house is
heading to 30 to 40% more than it was a
decade ago and rising rapidly recently. And that's because of
the cost of energy. And when I say energy, if
energy is unaffordable, everything is unaffordable. I often have housing
(07:41):
in my mind because if you think of the components
of the structure of a house, whether it be the
bitumen paving the road in the new estate or the
glass or the cement or the aluminium or the fittings,
their costs are skyrocketing because we're not making these things
in Australia anymore. And when we do, they cost too
much to manufacture because of the cost of energy.
S1 (08:01):
So I just let me get this clear, because I
don't think our listeners have heard this before. You're expressly
linking the cost of housing and the increased costs of housing,
which have been going up for years with the cost
of energy in this country. So you're saying because of energy.
S2 (08:15):
The cost of energy and the cost of construction, which
is because we just don't have the people to build
the houses, so that's another driver.
S1 (08:21):
Yeah, that's.
S2 (08:21):
The failures, the the failures of both the apprenticeship system
and everything that allows employers to actually afford to put
an apprentice on in the construction industry to get on
the tools to build the houses. So that's another failure.
There is a long list of failures, don't get me wrong.
But when you think of the, uh, the components, one
(08:44):
of the reasons and inflation tells us everything is going up.
But the biggest thing that's going up at the moment
in the latest basket of goods in inflation is energy
by 40%. And that is built into the cost of everything.
Because if you import something and unfortunately we're importing too
much because we're manufacturing too little. If you import something,
if you put it on a truck, if you put
(09:05):
it in cold storage, if you put it in a
logistical process, it by the time it arrives, it has
embedded those increased energy costs every step.
S3 (09:14):
Do you think of that idea of tying the migration
intake directly to how many houses we're building, and making
that a key political point?
S2 (09:20):
People are expressing a lot of different views. And I
said when I became leader, I would enfranchise every single
member of my party room to have their say on
every policy area. So it's a thorough process and we're listening.
And it's not just our views in our party room,
it's what the Australian people are telling us. And I
know the pressure on infrastructure. If you look back only
(09:42):
3 or 4 years and then look at the future,
people are seeing it really live and and, um, around
them and massive failures of state governments who in some cases,
particularly in Victoria, are running out of the funds that
they need to actually build the infrastructure that's been on
the books for a long time.
S3 (09:59):
I wonder how you feel about the year, the parliamentary
year wrapping up, you went through some moments of peril.
There was a huge debate about net zero, lots of leadership, speculation.
You've delivered a couple of big economic speeches, which were
probably underreported, laying out some clear principles to go back
to your roots on economics. Do you feel like you've
turned the corner in the back end of this year
and tamped down some of the internal tensions, and that
(10:20):
the future is positive? Or do you feel like this
is a kind of interregnum before more crisis early next year?
S2 (10:27):
I've never lost the feeling of great privilege to lead
the Liberal Party. And when I am able, with my team,
to fight for the things we believe in, for the
values of our party, for aspiration, enterprise, small business, and yes,
for making sure that we have a society that lives
within its means. That was my first statement of principles.
(10:47):
We have to manage the budget responsibly. And while that
sort of sounds a bit ho hum to some people,
when I put it in the terms of the next
generations and their affordability for housing, then it's well understood.
So because we have $1 trillion of debt looming, we
will be paying. We are paying $50,000 a minute on
(11:09):
interest on our debt right now. And we've got basically
emergency fiscal settings in peace time. The point is this
does anyone actually feel any better off for this? Well,
no they don't. So with all of this government spending,
no one is any better off. So yes, I've talked
about that. Secondly, I said we would have a policy
that would deliver lower personal income tax cuts at the
(11:32):
next election, substantial, lower personal income tax cuts. I agree, Paul,
it has been underreported because that's a clear that's a
clear statement that I've made, which reflects values of our party,
which are that you do deserve to keep more of
what you earn. And I often smile when I when
I hear the Labor Party saying this because clearly it's
not happening under them.
S1 (11:53):
Crucially, you have said that you would deliver a tax cut,
and I agree that has been underreported were he to
change that. But crucially, you haven't said how you'll fund
that tax cut.
S2 (12:01):
Every time you see a spending proposal from this government
between now and the next election, you can have confidence
that we are looking at it through either the lens
of budget repair or reducing personal income tax cuts for
low and middle income.
S1 (12:16):
Is that a way.
S2 (12:17):
Of saying.
S1 (12:17):
Is is that a way of saying that you haven't
worked out yet? How are you going to fund that
tax cut?
S2 (12:21):
It's a way of saying exactly what we've said. And
the election is two and a half years away, and
we can point to many areas. The NDIS is one
of them, where governments spend a lot of money, but
outcomes are not delivered. And I think this is really
important because you should never equate government spending with either
the appropriate outcome commensurate with that spend or service delivery,
(12:42):
because it's often not the case we see so much
inefficiency in government spending. And what that means for taxpayers
is that they're not really getting value for an increasing
tax burden. And more importantly, declining productivity in this country,
which tells it all. Look at the circumstances we're facing.
S1 (13:02):
Yeah, I'm interested in this kind of new pitch or
this this heightened focus on on economics because we've had
Ted O'Brien, also the shadow treasurer, come out and give
a National Press Club speech this week on economics and
fiscal responsibility, and we'd love to see it at this podcast.
I also want to ask you, though, about specific pitches
to specific voter cohorts that have abandoned the coalition. And
(13:23):
we saw the Australian election study this week came out
and it confirmed, well, it was quite shocking reading. I'm
sure you'll agree. 28% of women backed the coalition as
their first preference vote. Younger voters in particular, are turning
off the coalition. This is the continuation of a trend.
It looks like the absolute concreting bedding down of a
trend that's been happening over time. What is your select
(13:46):
and specific pitch to young, younger voters and women voters
to get them back to the Liberal Party?
S2 (13:53):
I looked at some research recently being done by the
Daily Oz podcast, and it was quite telling, because what
it indicated was that the biggest concern for younger voters,
bigger than all of the other concerns put together, is
cost of living. And that tells me that young people
particularly are struggling. And the reason why I have made
(14:14):
statements about managing the budget responsibly has been because we
have a disenfranchised generation in Gen Z and millennials who
genuinely don't believe they will find a pathway into a
home of their own. And that's simply not fair. And
I won't accept as a leader in this country that
those next generations and I have six grandchildren will actually
(14:34):
be poorer than their parents or grandparents. That's not good enough.
And I'm not looking at it in political terms because to,
to a large degree, Um, good politics is good policy.
I think of the policy first. What should we be
doing to assure this generation that they have exciting jobs
for the future, that they have rising real incomes, they
have an economy that can support their growing needs because
(14:57):
the population, um, has needs as they grow older. And
right now, we don't have answers to any of those questions.
So I do speak to a lot of young people
and a lot of women in women's groups. And I
do listen, and I just hear this cost of living
coming back overwhelmingly with respect to women. Women are caught
(15:18):
up many times, in many cases in what I call
just the busyness of life with needing two incomes to
pay the mortgage, worrying about the children, perhaps not getting
around to having children when they would like to, or
the next or the second or subsequent child looking after
elderly parents, maybe somebody in their family who's disabled, dealing
with the infrastructure pressures in our major cities and feeling what?
(15:42):
You know, what is my life really like? And I
want to find ways to address those concerns. And I
will be looking at that very early next year, and
we'll be doing some work on it.
S3 (15:53):
On women's policy.
S2 (15:54):
Well, I think women's policy is family.
S3 (15:56):
Policy or young people's policy to.
S2 (15:59):
Policies that address the the real struggle that women are
facing based on what they've told me, what I've seen
in my own life, when I was walking a mile
in those shoes, what I see in the lives of
my adult children. It is chaotic. It is frenetic. And
then when you add rising cost of living and housing,
(16:20):
unaffordability and uncertainty, if you're renting, then this needs to
be addressed as a matter of urgency. Now, Paul, I'm
just about to go into question Time, the last question
time of the year, and I'm going to say to
the Prime Minister, what are you going to accept responsibility
for this situation in what you called a year of delivery,
when we don't have what we were promised.
S3 (16:41):
You were the women's spokesperson in the last term. You'd
be across many different policy areas where there are gains
to be made for your party. What are you looking
at in terms of women's policy next year? You're looking
at childcare tax settings. What are you looking at to
win back women voters? What's in your mind as a
as a personal view?
S2 (17:00):
Nothing's ruled out because.
S3 (17:02):
Give me a few ideas like what's what's in your head.
S2 (17:04):
Look, I think the childcare system is letting modern women down.
And that's not just because of the awful events that
we've seen in some centres. And that doesn't mean we
don't have excellent long day care centres. And I was
a childcare minister, and I understand the childcare when it's
done really well. Early learning, early education is outstanding. But
(17:27):
the question is, is it meeting the needs of parents
who all want strong early education models, but they also
want to be able to balance work and family in
a way that suits them And too often I hear
of mums who say, well, I'm going back to work
early because I need two incomes for the mortgage and
(17:47):
I can't find childcare near me because it doesn't exist
and I'm going to have to drive half an hour
and maybe I'll put something together with grandparents, and maybe
I'll get on a waiting list here. And I just
feel that we need, as I said, as leaders to
come up with solutions for families. And I feel a
particular affinity with working mums, because when I was in
(18:10):
those years of my life, it was chaos. And you
went to bed exhausted and you thought, no one's happy.
I'm not doing this very well and something's got to give.
S3 (18:18):
Do you think that the current childcare system pushes women
too strongly into the workforce, and there's not enough of
an option for some sort of subsidy that allows some
more time at home? Do you agree with that?
S2 (18:29):
We're a party of choice, so we should look at
the settings as not being for the sake of the
settings themselves. In other words, an ideological position. The Prime
Minister talks about universal childcare as if everyone wants something
that looks like this. Well, everyone doesn't. Some people might.
Some people might vary what they want depending on their
own personal circumstances, how well their children are, what their
(18:51):
working arrangements are. So we're the party of freedom and choice,
and I believe that we need to develop policies that
reflect freedom and choice when it comes to these important issues.
So it's something that I'm delighted many of my party
room are talking about, because they're listening to the community
and they're hearing what I'm hearing.
S1 (19:08):
Susan, I want to ask you about electoral strategy and
in particular the teal seats, because the electoral strategy, such
as it was under Peter Dutton, which clearly was a
failed strategy, was basically, from what I could tell, to
abandon the teal seats or to not particularly focus on
them and to focus on the outer urban and suburban seats.
That was a strategy that was unsuccessful. What's your strategy?
(19:30):
I'm first of all, do you want to win back
the teal seats at the next election? And if so,
what is your strategy for those seats? Because they're a
there are particular particular set of concerns and there are
particular cohort of voters.
S2 (19:42):
We will be developing a serious, compelling policy agenda to
reach Australians wherever they are, whether it be in western
New South Wales, where I live, or in the so-called
the so-called teal seats or the inner city seats. But
I can say this because I visit areas like this continually,
that people are struggling with the cost of living wherever
you go.
S1 (20:02):
I mean, really in the seats. I'm sorry to cut
across you there, but we want to I want to
hear exactly what what it is that you're going to
do for that particular cohort, which was which were once
they're now called the teal seats. Colloquially, they were once
blue ribbon liberal seats. So what is it? How is
it that the Liberal Party has shifted so far away
from its own blue ribbon base? And how are you
going to win those particular voters back? Not with the
(20:24):
sort of broad strategy. I understand what you're saying.
S2 (20:27):
These are terms that you're using. Blue ribbon teal. I'm
just simply saying, if you're talking about the inner city,
wherever you may be talking. Yeah, I am listening to
them and the communities are telling me they're struggling with
the cost of living. The issues I just described, they're.
S1 (20:39):
Struggling with.
S2 (20:40):
The.
S1 (20:40):
Cost of.
S2 (20:40):
Living.
S1 (20:41):
And families.
S2 (20:43):
Are.
S1 (20:43):
In Toorak.
S2 (20:44):
Look, um, that's a very broad generalization that you're making.
A lot of people are renting in those suburbs. A
lot of people are struggling in those suburbs. And I'm
not suggesting every single Australian is struggling. Of course I'm not.
I'm saying what I hear from the voters in those
areas and what I just talked about with respect to women, families, children,
incredibly relevant. And the infrastructure squeeze, while may not be
(21:09):
so relevant in some of those areas, is certainly important
to people who are travelling through the city in their
everyday lives. And, you know, people across this country want
a government that manages the economy responsibly so they know,
as they look at Anthony Albanese and his crew, that
that's not happening. And they well understand the challenges of productivity.
(21:33):
They totally know that if you have declining productivity, you're
not going to have a better standard of living for
the next generation. They're ambitious for their children and their families,
just as everyone is.
S3 (21:45):
Your aim coming into this term was to tack towards
the centre, modernise the party. You're polling at 24% in Newspoll.
That's the lowest on record. That could turn you're at
a low point in the cycle. But do you think
the year's been a success? Do you feel like you're
getting on the right track, or is it is the
party mired in a position where there will inevitably be
a leadership change?
S2 (22:05):
We had the worst ever result in May, and I
knew that the first six months, there would be a
lot going on in order to set our party up
with the policy settings that we need to. And the
reason why I deliberately took time to do that was
because I wasn't going to come out of that election
and say, okay, these are our policies. I've got it
(22:26):
all worked out. Here we go. Because of that result,
it's been important to take the time to get it right.
And I've pleased. I'm pleased that I have. Look at
the energy policy we have landed. It's the right one
for the country. We can talk about it another time.
But you've heard me talk about it often, and we're
going to have principles around migration policy by the end
of the year. And I've referenced these two major economic speeches,
(22:49):
and I've also talked about getting stuck into industrial relations,
which is a terrible situation for small businesses, both employers.
S3 (22:56):
Well, you actually have an air fight for the first time.
S2 (22:58):
Absolutely. We will. And I accept that when the people
see any political party talking about themselves, they mark us down.
So I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing because
it matters to the Australian people that we have the
strongest possible opposition fighting a pretty awful government with an
(23:19):
agenda that is just taking this country nowhere. So I'll
always do that through the prism of liberal values and very,
very proud to fly that flag for the values that
have been very important.
S3 (23:29):
So this year was unity. Keeping the place in check.
Next year is turn. Turn your sights on the government.
S2 (23:34):
Well, I think we have turned our sights on the government.
Look at last week and this week with respect to
energy policy, I mean, you've got an energy minister who's
effectively acknowledged that he can be a full time president
of Cop and travel the world and somehow do his
job and somehow keep energy prices.
S3 (23:53):
Down to the Cop presidency. We don't have time for that.
But no, we don't.
S1 (23:57):
Susan, I do want to I do want to ask you,
are you going to be working through over the break
or are you going to take a break? What do
you do over Christmas?
S2 (24:02):
Uh, well I'm home. Uh, if I get a bit
of time, I might go for the odd day trip
in my small plane. If the weather's too not too awful. Uh, and, yeah,
I'll be working. I'll be working. Because every day is
a day where I can prosecute what I'm proud to
believe in with respect to liberal values and the policy
agenda that matters to Australians.
S3 (24:23):
Better tennis and cricket or no, no fun.
S2 (24:25):
Bit on TV.
S1 (24:26):
Just on TV in the background while you're while you're
in the study.
S2 (24:29):
I love having the cricket on in the background.
S1 (24:31):
Actually, it's the soundtrack to The.
S2 (24:33):
Sound of Summer. It really.
S1 (24:34):
Is. Sussan Ley, we know you had a really busy day.
We thank you for fitting us in. Have a merry
Christmas and a lovely break such as it is.
S2 (24:41):
Thank you.
S3 (24:41):
Thanks so much.
S1 (24:47):
Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance
from Debbie Harrington and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is
Tammy Mills, and special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you
listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with
(25:08):
all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age and
The Sydney Morning Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe
to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm
Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley. It's Friday, November 28th.
This week we have a very special guest in our
Canberra studio with our chief political correspondent, Paul Satchell. A
very big inside politics. Welcome to the opposition leader, Sussan Ley. Hello, Susan.
S2 (00:23):
Thanks, jacki for having me. And it's a pleasure to
talk to you and Paul, who's right in front of
me here in the studio.
S3 (00:28):
Welcome. Good to have you.
S1 (00:29):
Yeah. And I'm here in Sydney. Now, before we get
into anything, can you tell us what your opinion is
on cooking Wagyu steak on a sandwich grill in an
AIF office?
S2 (00:38):
I think that's a crime against steak cooking. And the
long line up of celebrity chefs inside and outside this building. Um,
but maybe it tasted amazing. Um, I just passed Barnaby
in the corridor, actually, and he's about to make a
statement in the house.
S3 (00:54):
Have you been chatting to him in recent weeks about this,
or is this not. You're just not engaged with him?
S2 (00:58):
Look, I haven't engaged about this. Um, Barnaby and I
are colleagues and friends. He came to my mum's funeral. Uh,
he checked on me during that difficult time, but, uh,
we we've never come from the same political party, and
he's free to do his own thing, and I'll leave
him to it.
S1 (01:14):
We should jump in here for listeners who won't understand
what you're talking about. You're talking about Barnaby Joyce, basically. Um, after,
you know, a few hours after Pauline Hanson did her
stunt with, um, walking into the Senate with a burqa
for which she was suspended, he went and broke bread
with her and they they controversially cooked Wagyu steaks on the, uh,
sandwich press in Pauline Hanson's office. And Barnaby Joyce, as
we record this podcast, is basically preparing to defect from
(01:36):
the coalition to One Nation. How do you think all
of that, um, sort of looks to, from, from a
voter's perspective? Susan, you've got Barnaby Joyce cosying up to
One Nation defecting from the party he used to lead
at a moment when she's done quite a controversial and
many people would say xenophobic stunt with the burka.
S2 (01:56):
I lead the Liberal Party and I'm responsible for leading
the opposition. However, the nationals are their own party and
individuals can make their own decisions. And I want to
be really clear about that, because here's a good example.
When we developed our Affordable Energy Responsible Emissions plan, we
worked out where we wanted to be in the Liberal
Party room, and we came together later with the Nationals
(02:18):
in Coalition. And that's because I believe that the Liberals
and Nationals are always stronger together fighting the Labor Party.
But I'm certainly not accountable for their actions as individuals.
And again, I make no comment on what Barnaby wishes
to do.
S4 (02:35):
So after 30 years with the National Party, I am
resigning from the party and that really leaves me with
a heavy heart and I apologise for all the hurt
that that will cause other people I really do.
S2 (02:46):
With respect to the stunt, jacki, it just goes to
show how brittle the politics of One Nation are. That
is not the forum for cheap stunts. It's the Senate
of Australia, and it diminished the important role the Senate
does have in our democracy. And it's not what Australians
(03:06):
expect of the national parliament.
S3 (03:08):
Was it racist and offensive that the stunt? Do you think.
S2 (03:10):
It was offensive? I do not want to see anyone's religion,
mocked president.
S5 (03:17):
A dress code might be a choice of the senators,
but racism should not be the choice of the Senate.
S6 (03:24):
It's disgraceful, Senator. It is a shame.
S5 (03:28):
A racist senator.
S6 (03:29):
Senator.
S5 (03:30):
Displaying blatant racism and Islamophobia.
S2 (03:34):
And again, our society is generous and welcoming of all faiths.
But rather than focus on whatever the message might have been,
I really take a front offence to the forum in
which it was done. There are many forums to have
a view and the the democracy that we share is
(03:57):
about the contest of ideas. Sure, but not on not
in the Senate. I mean, Australians expect better of us.
And the point is this, that when I leave this building,
I mean, I mean, I know you guys ask me
a lot of questions that are sort of a bit
inside the Beltway. But when I leave this building, no
one out there asks me these questions because.
S1 (04:15):
They don't ask you.
S2 (04:16):
About struggling.
S1 (04:17):
They don't ask about Pauline Hanson. Okay, well, let's talk
about something.
S2 (04:20):
They don't they they they I have to say this.
I do a lot of listening. We all do a
lot of talking in here. When we leave, we really
need to do a lot of listening. And I'm listening
to Australians who are struggling. They can't pay their power bills.
They're worried about their costs over Christmas. They've just seen
the latest inflation figures. And while they don't talk about
it the way we would, they just know that everything
(04:40):
is going up and their interest rates do not look
like they're coming down.
S1 (04:44):
Okay. So Pauline Hanson says she was trying to make
a point about immigration. And immigration is something that you
also want to have a debate about. So we've got
neo-Nazis who are gathering outside New South Wales Parliament House,
and House, and we've got this sort of horrible thing
that Pauline Hanson did in the Senate with the burqa.
I want to ask you, have you seriously thought about
or how have you reflected on how you can talk
about immigration and have a sensible debate about immigration while
(05:06):
making sure you don't sort of unleash these xenophobic genies
from the bottle, if you like.
S2 (05:11):
By recognizing the vast majority of Australians are people of
goodwill who live their lives and want others to be
free to live theirs. And we have made it very
clear what we think about neo-Nazi behaviour. And finally, it
looks like the New South Wales premier has engaged enough
(05:31):
with the issue to make sure these types of hideous
displays do not happen. And I reflect back to the
first one that was on the steps of the opera
House after October the 7th, with respect to migration. I've
said that by the end of the year, we will
outline our principles, and it's important that we do that.
But I guess in answer to your question about how
(05:54):
you talk about the issue. I make it very clear
that the challenges we're facing with infrastructure, with pressures on housing,
on public transport, the daily commute to work on hospitals
and schools are not the fault of any migrant or
migrant community. They are failures of governments to deliver infrastructure.
S3 (06:14):
I wonder on this issue how you avoid another schism
between the left and the right of the party. Andrew Bragg,
the housing uh, shadow spokesman, on Thursday morning said that
immigration can't be talked about as the key driver of
the housing crisis. It's one factor among many. Garth Hamilton,
the LNP backbencher on the conservative flank, said your immigration
(06:35):
policy should be entirely geared around how many houses are
being built and how many migrants are coming in to
live in them. Do you agree with Andrew Bragg that
it's one driver among many, but not the key driver
of the housing shortage or housing crisis?
S6 (06:46):
It is a.
S2 (06:47):
Driver and it is an important driver, but energy is
a massive and increasingly bigger driver, and we're only just
seeing that start to open up.
S3 (06:56):
In the housing.
S2 (06:57):
In the housing market, because the reason why people are
building less houses is many. But one of them is
the cost of building a new house. So what the groups,
the Urban Institute and others say, um, the reason why
we're seeing less houses is because people are going to
buy the existing stock of housing, which they know isn't
(07:19):
going to go up as much, even though it is
still increasing in cost as actually building a new house,
and that the cost of building a new house is
heading to 30 to 40% more than it was a
decade ago and rising rapidly recently. And that's because of
the cost of energy. And when I say energy, if
energy is unaffordable, everything is unaffordable. I often have housing
(07:41):
in my mind because if you think of the components
of the structure of a house, whether it be the
bitumen paving the road in the new estate or the
glass or the cement or the aluminium or the fittings,
their costs are skyrocketing because we're not making these things
in Australia anymore. And when we do, they cost too
much to manufacture because of the cost of energy.
S1 (08:01):
So I just let me get this clear, because I
don't think our listeners have heard this before. You're expressly
linking the cost of housing and the increased costs of housing,
which have been going up for years with the cost
of energy in this country. So you're saying because of energy.
S2 (08:15):
The cost of energy and the cost of construction, which
is because we just don't have the people to build
the houses, so that's another driver.
S1 (08:21):
Yeah, that's.
S2 (08:21):
The failures, the the failures of both the apprenticeship system
and everything that allows employers to actually afford to put
an apprentice on in the construction industry to get on
the tools to build the houses. So that's another failure.
There is a long list of failures, don't get me wrong.
But when you think of the, uh, the components, one
(08:44):
of the reasons and inflation tells us everything is going up.
But the biggest thing that's going up at the moment
in the latest basket of goods in inflation is energy
by 40%. And that is built into the cost of everything.
Because if you import something and unfortunately we're importing too
much because we're manufacturing too little. If you import something,
if you put it on a truck, if you put
(09:05):
it in cold storage, if you put it in a
logistical process, it by the time it arrives, it has
embedded those increased energy costs every step.
S3 (09:14):
Do you think of that idea of tying the migration
intake directly to how many houses we're building, and making
that a key political point?
S2 (09:20):
People are expressing a lot of different views. And I
said when I became leader, I would enfranchise every single
member of my party room to have their say on
every policy area. So it's a thorough process and we're listening.
And it's not just our views in our party room,
it's what the Australian people are telling us. And I
know the pressure on infrastructure. If you look back only
(09:42):
3 or 4 years and then look at the future,
people are seeing it really live and and, um, around
them and massive failures of state governments who in some cases,
particularly in Victoria, are running out of the funds that
they need to actually build the infrastructure that's been on
the books for a long time.
S3 (09:59):
I wonder how you feel about the year, the parliamentary
year wrapping up, you went through some moments of peril.
There was a huge debate about net zero, lots of leadership, speculation.
You've delivered a couple of big economic speeches, which were
probably underreported, laying out some clear principles to go back
to your roots on economics. Do you feel like you've
turned the corner in the back end of this year
and tamped down some of the internal tensions, and that
(10:20):
the future is positive? Or do you feel like this
is a kind of interregnum before more crisis early next year?
S2 (10:27):
I've never lost the feeling of great privilege to lead
the Liberal Party. And when I am able, with my team,
to fight for the things we believe in, for the
values of our party, for aspiration, enterprise, small business, and yes,
for making sure that we have a society that lives
within its means. That was my first statement of principles.
(10:47):
We have to manage the budget responsibly. And while that
sort of sounds a bit ho hum to some people,
when I put it in the terms of the next
generations and their affordability for housing, then it's well understood.
So because we have $1 trillion of debt looming, we
will be paying. We are paying $50,000 a minute on
(11:09):
interest on our debt right now. And we've got basically
emergency fiscal settings in peace time. The point is this
does anyone actually feel any better off for this? Well,
no they don't. So with all of this government spending,
no one is any better off. So yes, I've talked
about that. Secondly, I said we would have a policy
that would deliver lower personal income tax cuts at the
(11:32):
next election, substantial, lower personal income tax cuts. I agree, Paul,
it has been underreported because that's a clear that's a
clear statement that I've made, which reflects values of our party,
which are that you do deserve to keep more of
what you earn. And I often smile when I when
I hear the Labor Party saying this because clearly it's
not happening under them.
S1 (11:53):
Crucially, you have said that you would deliver a tax cut,
and I agree that has been underreported were he to
change that. But crucially, you haven't said how you'll fund
that tax cut.
S2 (12:01):
Every time you see a spending proposal from this government
between now and the next election, you can have confidence
that we are looking at it through either the lens
of budget repair or reducing personal income tax cuts for
low and middle income.
S1 (12:16):
Is that a way.
S2 (12:17):
Of saying.
S1 (12:17):
Is is that a way of saying that you haven't
worked out yet? How are you going to fund that
tax cut?
S2 (12:21):
It's a way of saying exactly what we've said. And
the election is two and a half years away, and
we can point to many areas. The NDIS is one
of them, where governments spend a lot of money, but
outcomes are not delivered. And I think this is really
important because you should never equate government spending with either
the appropriate outcome commensurate with that spend or service delivery,
(12:42):
because it's often not the case we see so much
inefficiency in government spending. And what that means for taxpayers
is that they're not really getting value for an increasing
tax burden. And more importantly, declining productivity in this country,
which tells it all. Look at the circumstances we're facing.
S1 (13:02):
Yeah, I'm interested in this kind of new pitch or
this this heightened focus on on economics because we've had
Ted O'Brien, also the shadow treasurer, come out and give
a National Press Club speech this week on economics and
fiscal responsibility, and we'd love to see it at this podcast.
I also want to ask you, though, about specific pitches
to specific voter cohorts that have abandoned the coalition. And
(13:23):
we saw the Australian election study this week came out
and it confirmed, well, it was quite shocking reading. I'm
sure you'll agree. 28% of women backed the coalition as
their first preference vote. Younger voters in particular, are turning
off the coalition. This is the continuation of a trend.
It looks like the absolute concreting bedding down of a
trend that's been happening over time. What is your select
(13:46):
and specific pitch to young, younger voters and women voters
to get them back to the Liberal Party?
S2 (13:53):
I looked at some research recently being done by the
Daily Oz podcast, and it was quite telling, because what
it indicated was that the biggest concern for younger voters,
bigger than all of the other concerns put together, is
cost of living. And that tells me that young people
particularly are struggling. And the reason why I have made
(14:14):
statements about managing the budget responsibly has been because we
have a disenfranchised generation in Gen Z and millennials who
genuinely don't believe they will find a pathway into a
home of their own. And that's simply not fair. And
I won't accept as a leader in this country that
those next generations and I have six grandchildren will actually
(14:34):
be poorer than their parents or grandparents. That's not good enough.
And I'm not looking at it in political terms because to,
to a large degree, Um, good politics is good policy.
I think of the policy first. What should we be
doing to assure this generation that they have exciting jobs
for the future, that they have rising real incomes, they
have an economy that can support their growing needs because
(14:57):
the population, um, has needs as they grow older. And
right now, we don't have answers to any of those questions.
So I do speak to a lot of young people
and a lot of women in women's groups. And I
do listen, and I just hear this cost of living
coming back overwhelmingly with respect to women. Women are caught
(15:18):
up many times, in many cases in what I call
just the busyness of life with needing two incomes to
pay the mortgage, worrying about the children, perhaps not getting
around to having children when they would like to, or
the next or the second or subsequent child looking after
elderly parents, maybe somebody in their family who's disabled, dealing
with the infrastructure pressures in our major cities and feeling what?
(15:42):
You know, what is my life really like? And I
want to find ways to address those concerns. And I
will be looking at that very early next year, and
we'll be doing some work on it.
S3 (15:53):
On women's policy.
S2 (15:54):
Well, I think women's policy is family.
S3 (15:56):
Policy or young people's policy to.
S2 (15:59):
Policies that address the the real struggle that women are
facing based on what they've told me, what I've seen
in my own life, when I was walking a mile
in those shoes, what I see in the lives of
my adult children. It is chaotic. It is frenetic. And
then when you add rising cost of living and housing,
(16:20):
unaffordability and uncertainty, if you're renting, then this needs to
be addressed as a matter of urgency. Now, Paul, I'm
just about to go into question Time, the last question
time of the year, and I'm going to say to
the Prime Minister, what are you going to accept responsibility
for this situation in what you called a year of delivery,
when we don't have what we were promised.
S3 (16:41):
You were the women's spokesperson in the last term. You'd
be across many different policy areas where there are gains
to be made for your party. What are you looking
at in terms of women's policy next year? You're looking
at childcare tax settings. What are you looking at to
win back women voters? What's in your mind as a
as a personal view?
S2 (17:00):
Nothing's ruled out because.
S3 (17:02):
Give me a few ideas like what's what's in your head.
S2 (17:04):
Look, I think the childcare system is letting modern women down.
And that's not just because of the awful events that
we've seen in some centres. And that doesn't mean we
don't have excellent long day care centres. And I was
a childcare minister, and I understand the childcare when it's
done really well. Early learning, early education is outstanding. But
(17:27):
the question is, is it meeting the needs of parents
who all want strong early education models, but they also
want to be able to balance work and family in
a way that suits them And too often I hear
of mums who say, well, I'm going back to work
early because I need two incomes for the mortgage and
(17:47):
I can't find childcare near me because it doesn't exist
and I'm going to have to drive half an hour
and maybe I'll put something together with grandparents, and maybe
I'll get on a waiting list here. And I just
feel that we need, as I said, as leaders to
come up with solutions for families. And I feel a
particular affinity with working mums, because when I was in
(18:10):
those years of my life, it was chaos. And you
went to bed exhausted and you thought, no one's happy.
I'm not doing this very well and something's got to give.
S3 (18:18):
Do you think that the current childcare system pushes women
too strongly into the workforce, and there's not enough of
an option for some sort of subsidy that allows some
more time at home? Do you agree with that?
S2 (18:29):
We're a party of choice, so we should look at
the settings as not being for the sake of the
settings themselves. In other words, an ideological position. The Prime
Minister talks about universal childcare as if everyone wants something
that looks like this. Well, everyone doesn't. Some people might.
Some people might vary what they want depending on their
own personal circumstances, how well their children are, what their
(18:51):
working arrangements are. So we're the party of freedom and choice,
and I believe that we need to develop policies that
reflect freedom and choice when it comes to these important issues.
So it's something that I'm delighted many of my party
room are talking about, because they're listening to the community
and they're hearing what I'm hearing.
S1 (19:08):
Susan, I want to ask you about electoral strategy and
in particular the teal seats, because the electoral strategy, such
as it was under Peter Dutton, which clearly was a
failed strategy, was basically, from what I could tell, to
abandon the teal seats or to not particularly focus on
them and to focus on the outer urban and suburban seats.
That was a strategy that was unsuccessful. What's your strategy?
(19:30):
I'm first of all, do you want to win back
the teal seats at the next election? And if so,
what is your strategy for those seats? Because they're a
there are particular particular set of concerns and there are
particular cohort of voters.
S2 (19:42):
We will be developing a serious, compelling policy agenda to
reach Australians wherever they are, whether it be in western
New South Wales, where I live, or in the so-called
the so-called teal seats or the inner city seats. But
I can say this because I visit areas like this continually,
that people are struggling with the cost of living wherever
you go.
S1 (20:02):
I mean, really in the seats. I'm sorry to cut
across you there, but we want to I want to
hear exactly what what it is that you're going to
do for that particular cohort, which was which were once
they're now called the teal seats. Colloquially, they were once
blue ribbon liberal seats. So what is it? How is
it that the Liberal Party has shifted so far away
from its own blue ribbon base? And how are you
going to win those particular voters back? Not with the
(20:24):
sort of broad strategy. I understand what you're saying.
S2 (20:27):
These are terms that you're using. Blue ribbon teal. I'm
just simply saying, if you're talking about the inner city,
wherever you may be talking. Yeah, I am listening to
them and the communities are telling me they're struggling with
the cost of living. The issues I just described, they're.
S1 (20:39):
Struggling with.
S2 (20:40):
The.
S1 (20:40):
Cost of.
S2 (20:40):
Living.
S1 (20:41):
And families.
S2 (20:43):
Are.
S1 (20:43):
In Toorak.
S2 (20:44):
Look, um, that's a very broad generalization that you're making.
A lot of people are renting in those suburbs. A
lot of people are struggling in those suburbs. And I'm
not suggesting every single Australian is struggling. Of course I'm not.
I'm saying what I hear from the voters in those
areas and what I just talked about with respect to women, families, children,
incredibly relevant. And the infrastructure squeeze, while may not be
(21:09):
so relevant in some of those areas, is certainly important
to people who are travelling through the city in their
everyday lives. And, you know, people across this country want
a government that manages the economy responsibly so they know,
as they look at Anthony Albanese and his crew, that
that's not happening. And they well understand the challenges of productivity.
(21:33):
They totally know that if you have declining productivity, you're
not going to have a better standard of living for
the next generation. They're ambitious for their children and their families,
just as everyone is.
S3 (21:45):
Your aim coming into this term was to tack towards
the centre, modernise the party. You're polling at 24% in Newspoll.
That's the lowest on record. That could turn you're at
a low point in the cycle. But do you think
the year's been a success? Do you feel like you're
getting on the right track, or is it is the
party mired in a position where there will inevitably be
a leadership change?
S2 (22:05):
We had the worst ever result in May, and I
knew that the first six months, there would be a
lot going on in order to set our party up
with the policy settings that we need to. And the
reason why I deliberately took time to do that was
because I wasn't going to come out of that election
and say, okay, these are our policies. I've got it
(22:26):
all worked out. Here we go. Because of that result,
it's been important to take the time to get it right.
And I've pleased. I'm pleased that I have. Look at
the energy policy we have landed. It's the right one
for the country. We can talk about it another time.
But you've heard me talk about it often, and we're
going to have principles around migration policy by the end
of the year. And I've referenced these two major economic speeches,
(22:49):
and I've also talked about getting stuck into industrial relations,
which is a terrible situation for small businesses, both employers.
S3 (22:56):
Well, you actually have an air fight for the first time.
S2 (22:58):
Absolutely. We will. And I accept that when the people
see any political party talking about themselves, they mark us down.
So I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing because
it matters to the Australian people that we have the
strongest possible opposition fighting a pretty awful government with an
(23:19):
agenda that is just taking this country nowhere. So I'll
always do that through the prism of liberal values and very,
very proud to fly that flag for the values that
have been very important.
S3 (23:29):
So this year was unity. Keeping the place in check.
Next year is turn. Turn your sights on the government.
S2 (23:34):
Well, I think we have turned our sights on the government.
Look at last week and this week with respect to
energy policy, I mean, you've got an energy minister who's
effectively acknowledged that he can be a full time president
of Cop and travel the world and somehow do his
job and somehow keep energy prices.
S3 (23:53):
Down to the Cop presidency. We don't have time for that.
But no, we don't.
S1 (23:57):
Susan, I do want to I do want to ask you,
are you going to be working through over the break
or are you going to take a break? What do
you do over Christmas?
S2 (24:02):
Uh, well I'm home. Uh, if I get a bit
of time, I might go for the odd day trip
in my small plane. If the weather's too not too awful. Uh, and, yeah,
I'll be working. I'll be working. Because every day is
a day where I can prosecute what I'm proud to
believe in with respect to liberal values and the policy
agenda that matters to Australians.
S3 (24:23):
Better tennis and cricket or no, no fun.
S2 (24:25):
Bit on TV.
S1 (24:26):
Just on TV in the background while you're while you're
in the study.
S2 (24:29):
I love having the cricket on in the background.
S1 (24:31):
Actually, it's the soundtrack to The.
S2 (24:33):
Sound of Summer. It really.
S1 (24:34):
Is. Sussan Ley, we know you had a really busy day.
We thank you for fitting us in. Have a merry
Christmas and a lovely break such as it is.
S2 (24:41):
Thank you.
S3 (24:41):
Thanks so much.
S1 (24:47):
Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance
from Debbie Harrington and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is
Tammy Mills, and special thanks to Lisa Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you
listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with
(25:08):
all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age and
The Sydney Morning Herald websites. To support our journalism, subscribe
to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm
Jacqueline Maley. Thank you for listening.
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In 1997, actress Kristin Davis’ life was forever changed when she took on the role of Charlotte York in Sex and the City. As we watched Carrie, Samantha, Miranda and Charlotte navigate relationships in NYC, the show helped push once unacceptable conversation topics out of the shadows and altered the narrative around women and sex. We all saw ourselves in them as they searched for fulfillment in life, sex and friendships. Now, Kristin Davis wants to connect with you, the fans, and share untold stories and all the behind the scenes. Together, with Kristin and special guests, what will begin with Sex and the City will evolve into talks about themes that are still so relevant today. "Are you a Charlotte?" is much more than just rewatching this beloved show, it brings the past and the present together as we talk with heart, humor and of course some optimism.
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