November 11, 2025 • 20 mins
How could dozens of white supremacists be allowed to rally outside of the NSW parliament building, on Saturday morning? And why didn’t the police who watched them congregate make them disperse, once they heard them use antisemitic tropes about power and influence, and chant a Hitler Youth slogan?
These are just two of the questions facing our government and police force, in the wake of an incident that has not only created fear, but led to two MPs facing threats of death, and rape.
Today, state political editor Alexandra Smith, on what this incident tells us about whether our laws - and the institutions meant to keep us safe - are fit for purpose. And whether NSW is weaker than other states and territories, at warding off the attempts of the Neo-Nazi group to establish a political party.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
November 12th. How could dozens of white supremacists be allowed
to rally outside of the New South Wales Parliament building
on Saturday morning? And why didn't the police who watched
(00:24):
them congregate, make them disperse once they heard them use
anti-Semitic tropes about power and influence and chant a Hitler
Youth slogan? These are just two of the questions facing
our government and police force in the wake of an
incident that has not only created fear, but led to
two MPs facing threats of death and rape. Today, state
(00:48):
political editor Alexandra Smith, on what this incident tells us
about whether our laws and the institutions meant to keep
us safe are fit for purpose, and whether New South
Wales is weaker than other states and territories at warding
off the attempts of the neo-Nazi group to establish a
political party. So, Alex, first off, I really have to
(01:13):
ask you, did you ever think that we'd be sitting
here in 2025 talking about neo-Nazis protesting on the steps
of New South Wales Parliament House, of all places? Like,
what was the look on your face? What was going
through your mind when you were shown the photo that
this event that you thought might happen did actually happen?
S2 (01:32):
Well, I have to say, I did not expect this
to actually play out how it did. Obviously, there's been
the rise of neo-Nazism in Victoria. It's been a very
Victorian problem, and I think everybody has sort of acknowledged that. Thankfully,
the only times we've seen neo-Nazis in New South Wales
is when they've come over the border. They've come from
(01:52):
Victoria into New South Wales. But clearly things are changing
and they're changing very rapidly. In New South Wales.
S3 (02:00):
neo-Nazis have used state parliament as their stage today to
launch a bitter attack on Jewish groups. The premier and
police commissioner blindsided by the protest video tonight being analysed
to decide if hate speech laws have been broken.
S2 (02:16):
And so, while the Herald had heard that an event
involving neo-Nazis was planned for Macquarie Street on Saturday over
the weekend, I don't think I envisaged at all the
scenes that would be presented with with the photo where
we had 60 black clad men and they were all
men with largely their faces on display, standing in front
(02:41):
of the Parliament in New South Wales, which of course
is the very place where laws are made to stop
such things, such as inciting racial hatred. And I have
to say, I was really surprised, and I am really
surprised that we're sitting here today talking about the rise
of neo-Nazism in New South Wales.
S1 (02:59):
Well, that's right. And, you know, just to give the
listeners some context, you've been reporting on and off on
politics for about 18 years. So you're not new to this.
You don't get shocked easily. Can you walk us through
then what exactly unfolded on Saturday morning?
S2 (03:14):
So it's very interesting because what I have come to
learn about this group, which is known as the National
Socialist Network, but rebranded as White Australia, is they are
incredibly well organized, incredibly savvy. They know what they're doing.
So on Saturday morning, they turned up on Macquarie Street
(03:37):
en masse outside Parliament House at 10 a.m. they were
there for less than ten minutes in and out and
about seven, as I understand it, enough time to stand
and pose in that now infamous photo of them in
a line in front of the historical Parliament. Then they
unfurled a banner, which of course we know said abolish
(03:58):
the Jewish lobby. And then there was some chants chance
around blood and honor, which invokes the Hitler Youth. Then
they were gone.
S4 (04:07):
Outside state parliament, almost 70 neo-Nazis from the White Australia group.
S5 (04:13):
Are bloody, not up.
S4 (04:16):
Armed with a banner that reads Abolish the Jewish lobby
and all of it approved by police.
S6 (04:22):
The Jewish lobby is destroying our nation.
S4 (04:25):
They claim the lobby is controlling the government and want
hate speech laws abolished.
S6 (04:30):
They bribe our politicians.
S2 (04:33):
There were police standing around, but they didn't do what
some protests do where they block the road. Of course,
Macquarie Street on a Saturday morning is very quiet. It's
not a busy thoroughfare like it is today on a
on a work day. And I think what this group
obviously knew how to do was make sure they stayed
(04:54):
within the law. They are advised by lawyers so they
know how to get in and out without. really striking
up any problems with the police. And that's what we
saw on Saturday.
S1 (05:07):
Okay, a number of questions come to mind, but let's
start with the first, I think, very obvious one, which
is how was the rally even allowed to go ahead,
given that the group that gave notice a week prior,
like you said, they're very well organized. You know, it's
a it's a well known neo-Nazi group, right?
S2 (05:24):
That's right. And this I think is where people are concerned.
There are two sides to it, though. The group submitted
a so-called form one form with the New South Wales Police,
everybody who wants to protest. And each year in New
South Wales, there's as many as 2000 protests. And the
organisers of those protests are required if they're going to
(05:45):
cause any problems, you know, obstruct the road, that kind
of thing, to notify police in advance. And of course,
we've heard through the pro-Palestinian protests that have gone on weekly,
that is what that group has done every week. You know,
lodged the form. This group did that in the required
time frame. The problem seems to be, and this is
where there's a lot of different legal argument. It's underway
(06:07):
as we speak. Different legal groups and different bodies are
trying to work out what actually constituted this group being
allowed to go ahead with this protest. And what it
would seem at this point is under the current laws,
they weren't breaking any laws. They were not doing anything
that enabled police to step in and say, stop, you
(06:29):
cannot do this. We will not allow this. The police
could have taken this to court, and we've seen the
police take other protests, such as the pro-Palestinian march across
the bridge several months ago that went to the court.
And of course, it was found in favour of the
Palestine Action Group. And that march went ahead. The police
could have done that, but they didn't. There is a
(06:51):
school of thought that perhaps the White Australia group had hoped, maybe,
that the police would indeed take this to court, because
what they really want is publicity. They want to be
seen as the victims. Any publicity is good publicity in
their mind anytime the media cover them. And I must admit,
this is where it's tricky for people like me. But
(07:12):
what they want is they want coverage. Because, as the
ASIO boss said recently, Mike Burgess, any publicity drives membership
for them. So in some ways there's this thought that
perhaps they deliberately put this form one in, knowing that
perhaps they didn't need to because of course, they weren't
planning to cross roads, delay traffic, hold up public transport.
(07:34):
They wanted a photo taken which was going to be
used as political collateral in their social media. But then,
of course, the police and they had legal advice, as is,
of course, important, obviously decided that a they couldn't challenge
the form in court and there was no way for
them to stop this protest or this rally. And so
it went ahead.
S7 (07:54):
But I want to ask you about.
S1 (07:56):
Stopping the protest, because they did have the banner that
said abolish the Jewish lobby. I imagine a lot of
listeners like myself are wondering, well, is that actually legal?
Is that something that arguably could incite racial hatred? And then,
of course, two NSN leaders spoke criticizing not only Jewish groups,
but Jewish people in general. So I think the obvious
(08:17):
question there is, would the police who are watching this,
would that not have been an obvious point at which
to disperse this group? Or, you know, like, is that
not something they should have done?
S2 (08:28):
And that is where it gets very tricky. Premier Chris
Minns has spoken about this, and he said the problem
is it happens very quickly. This was as I said,
they were in and out about seven minutes, I think,
and the police have to make a decision right there
and then as to whether groups are breaking the law.
The problem is it is not clear whether they were
(08:51):
breaking the laws. Horrific as that may sound to Jewish
groups or just reasonable minded people, that what they were
saying was clearly hatred and awful. but does it break
the law? And it would seem at this point it didn't.
So this is why people like Chris Minns is talking
about having to strengthen racial hate laws, because at the moment,
(09:13):
what the group did doesn't appear to have been illegal.
I mean, there may be charges laid based on, as
you said, some of the comments that the two leaders
later made about Jewish people. But there was a phrase
that they chanted blood and honour. Now, as it stands
and as it's been explained to me under the racial
vilification laws, that is not illegal. It's very interesting that
(09:36):
in Germany, under their criminal code, they introduced such things
as that phrase because it invokes the Hitler Youth to
be illegal. So there is some suggestion that New South
Wales may look to Germany's laws. I mean, obviously they
have a very different approach, understandably, but it looks as though,
given a problem is now in our state that we
(09:58):
didn't really ever anticipate. I mean, nobody thought that Nazis
were coming into New South Wales and trying to set
up a political group. But the reality is that's where
we're at. And so maybe the laws now need to
be changed is the argument of the Premier. Of course,
there will also be the flip side where people say,
you can't just keep changing laws because every time you
(10:20):
change a law, groups find ways around, you know, different aspects.
That is true. But I think what we know is
that probably what went on on Saturday didn't break any
current laws.
S1 (10:36):
We'll be right back. Okay. And so I do wonder, though,
whether there was a screw up. I mean, I know
that our mastheads have written a lot about this because
the police commissioner, Mal Lanyon, and the Premier, Chris Minns,
they've both said that they didn't know about the event
before it was held. Presumably they should have been told beforehand.
I would have thought as a reasonable thinking person. So
(10:58):
I guess, at what point did the New South Wales
government discover that the rally was going to take place.
S2 (11:03):
They discovered, after it had taken place. When you're talking
about Mal Lanyon, the police commissioner, and premier, Chris Minns,
they discovered when the Sydney Morning Herald put questions into
their respective offices and said, why did this happen? There
was a very quickly organised press conference with both Lanyon
and Minns to discuss this, but the two made it
(11:25):
very clear that the first they knew about it was
after the event had taken place, which is clearly very
problematic and I would also argue, somewhat embarrassing for the
premier of the state. I mean, to not know something
like this had taken place. It wasn't secretive. It wasn't
done in some hidden underground meeting place. The Herald had
heard it was happening. This form had been put in
(11:47):
formally with the police. The speaker of the New South
Wales Parliament, Greg Piper, knew it was taking place late
on Friday night and had contacted the special constables, who
were responsible for the security of Parliament House and said
what is going on? Can we stop this? Their advice
was no, we can't. So people knew this was taking place.
So it was embarrassing for the Premier. It was embarrassing.
(12:09):
More so, probably for Mal Lanyon, because it was clear
that this information wasn't passed up the chain to him.
He's a new commissioner. He's not warning any sort of
early black marks, and he had to come out and
sort of say, yeah, no one, no one told me.
S7 (12:26):
I mean, that is really embarrassing.
S1 (12:27):
I know that the deputy police commissioner has said it
was a communication oversight, as I believe the term that
he used is that all it was like, was this
really just a small screw up or is it perhaps
a suggestion or. I don't know that there's something bigger here.
S2 (12:42):
Yeah. Look, I think, you know, with no further evidence
at this point. Yes, it was a screw up, but
that doesn't take away from the enormity of the issue,
does it? Probably people looked at this form, had legal
advice from within the police which said, there is nothing
we can do to stop this protest, obviously. You know,
(13:04):
free speech is a very important principle of a democracy.
There is nothing we can do. Let's just hope that
they get in, get out, don't create any trouble for us.
And then we move on. And in some ways that happened.
But equally, the problem is, as I've said, this is
not some group that was nobody had heard of sort
(13:26):
of joined together of some fringe dwellers. The head of
ASIO spoke about this very group just last week, saying
how concerned he was about them. Police commissioners have given
evidence before parliamentary inquiries in recent months about the fact
that they're tracking this group. They know they're around. They're concerned.
It should have raised red flags, perhaps even if there
(13:50):
was nothing legally they could have done at that point,
I think the premier of the state needed to know.
Certainly the Commissioner of Police needed to know. And I
think now it just highlights and reminds everybody of the
threat that we sort of have. This group is not
going away. They want to recruit enough members to register
a political party to run in the 2027 state election.
(14:14):
They're not giving up. They're not just sort of a
part time here for a short time group. They're growing and,
you know, it should be. And it is a big
concern to New South Wales.
S1 (14:24):
And it's interesting you say that because I know that,
you know, the Australian Federal Police set up just last
month a new national security investigations teams, as I understand it,
to focus on groups including the NHSN, now called White Australia,
due to concern about the group's aspirations to form a
political party. So is New South Wales something of a
weak link here? Because our colleague Jessica McSweeney just reported
(14:46):
yesterday that Joel Davis, who's a key figure in this group,
that he told followers just last week that a New
South Wales upper house campaign was likely the easiest path
to victory as the group tries to rebrand as the
White Australia Party. So is New South Wales something of
a weak link here?
S2 (15:03):
It's not so much as a of a weak link.
I mean, when you look at the makeup of the
New South Wales upper house, it has a history of
small parties. Over the years we've had many minor parties
in the upper house, you know, very different on the
other side of the political spectrum, of course. But, you know,
we've got the Animal Justice Party, we've had one nation
and it's because of the and this is now getting
(15:24):
into a whole different area. It's because of the voting
system to get people elected to the upper house. So
I don't think it's so much that New South Wales
is suddenly going to welcome neo-Nazis with open arms. I
think the way in which our upper house is set
up electorally means that minor parties do have the opportunity
to get elected. That does not mean, of course, that
(15:44):
the neo-Nazis will. What? Australia will suddenly have representatives in
the upper house. Nonetheless, if they can get enough members
to form a party, then at least they can run.
And even that in itself, even if they're not getting elected,
if they're on the ballot paper, if they're at, you know,
Schools handing out how to vote cards. It starts to,
(16:05):
I think, become a very big threat to a lot
of to, you know, to everything we kind of have
worked to achieve in New South Wales around harmony and diversity.
And so even if they don't get elected, and I
would find it difficult to believe that they would, nonetheless,
they may well register as a political party. And that's
the first step, isn't it?
S1 (16:24):
Absolutely. And can you tell us what do we know
about what the impact on the Jewish community has been
here to the rally, whether just in New South Wales
or even more broadly, if we've heard from Jewish organisations
across Australia. Like, are people fearful, perhaps something else?
S2 (16:39):
Absolutely. I mean, understandably, the Jewish groups came out very
quickly and expressed their absolute dismay that not only does
this group exist, but that this rally went ahead. I mean,
it's hugely, hugely hurtful for the Jewish community and understandably so.
Even worse, in some ways, I think, is the fact
(17:02):
that two female members of Parliament are Kelly Sloane, who
was a state member for Vaucluse, and Allegra Spender, who
is the federal member for Wentworth, had death threats and
rape threats levelled at them. Now they are two MPs
who have very big Jewish populations in their electorate. You know,
they're speaking for the people they represent. They have every
(17:23):
right to come out and be critical of this group.
But of course, then they face a barrage of awful,
awful material. Kelly Sloane had to shut down her X
account because she just could not bear what was coming
her way. These threats have been reported to police, but
it just shows how nasty it's getting and how hurtful
(17:44):
and how much you know, hate. This group really manages
to get out in the community.
S1 (17:50):
And Alex, I guess just to wrap up, it's left
me wondering whether there's any suggestion that there is perhaps
latent racism or just cluelessness about the dangers or threats
of racism or perhaps even anti-Semitism, specifically within our state
government or police force?
S2 (18:07):
I don't think so. I think that given the terrible
few years that we've had since, you know, the awful
attacks on Israel, I think people are very, very aware
of the impacts of racism, particularly of anti-Semitism. You know,
that has dominated the political debate for a long time.
(18:28):
But I think perhaps, you know, the idea that we
had finally reached a place in society where we were
more welcoming of groups, we were welcoming of diversity. Maybe
we got complacent because it just shows that if you
just take your eye off events for a moment, it
can explode quickly. And I think that's what we're seeing.
So I think the state government is very aware of
(18:52):
emerging problems in society such as racism, the rise of anti-Semitism.
It's just keeping up with that which has shown to
be problematic.
S1 (19:04):
Yeah, well, we are so lucky that you are. You know,
they're on the ground reporting on this. So thank you
so much, Alex, for your time.
S2 (19:11):
Thanks, Sam.
S1 (19:18):
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(19:40):
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I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Seelinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
November 12th. How could dozens of white supremacists be allowed
to rally outside of the New South Wales Parliament building
on Saturday morning? And why didn't the police who watched
(00:24):
them congregate, make them disperse once they heard them use
anti-Semitic tropes about power and influence and chant a Hitler
Youth slogan? These are just two of the questions facing
our government and police force in the wake of an
incident that has not only created fear, but led to
two MPs facing threats of death and rape. Today, state
(00:48):
political editor Alexandra Smith, on what this incident tells us
about whether our laws and the institutions meant to keep
us safe are fit for purpose, and whether New South
Wales is weaker than other states and territories at warding
off the attempts of the neo-Nazi group to establish a
political party. So, Alex, first off, I really have to
(01:13):
ask you, did you ever think that we'd be sitting
here in 2025 talking about neo-Nazis protesting on the steps
of New South Wales Parliament House, of all places? Like,
what was the look on your face? What was going
through your mind when you were shown the photo that
this event that you thought might happen did actually happen?
S2 (01:32):
Well, I have to say, I did not expect this
to actually play out how it did. Obviously, there's been
the rise of neo-Nazism in Victoria. It's been a very
Victorian problem, and I think everybody has sort of acknowledged that. Thankfully,
the only times we've seen neo-Nazis in New South Wales
is when they've come over the border. They've come from
(01:52):
Victoria into New South Wales. But clearly things are changing
and they're changing very rapidly. In New South Wales.
S3 (02:00):
neo-Nazis have used state parliament as their stage today to
launch a bitter attack on Jewish groups. The premier and
police commissioner blindsided by the protest video tonight being analysed
to decide if hate speech laws have been broken.
S2 (02:16):
And so, while the Herald had heard that an event
involving neo-Nazis was planned for Macquarie Street on Saturday over
the weekend, I don't think I envisaged at all the
scenes that would be presented with with the photo where
we had 60 black clad men and they were all
men with largely their faces on display, standing in front
(02:41):
of the Parliament in New South Wales, which of course
is the very place where laws are made to stop
such things, such as inciting racial hatred. And I have
to say, I was really surprised, and I am really
surprised that we're sitting here today talking about the rise
of neo-Nazism in New South Wales.
S1 (02:59):
Well, that's right. And, you know, just to give the
listeners some context, you've been reporting on and off on
politics for about 18 years. So you're not new to this.
You don't get shocked easily. Can you walk us through
then what exactly unfolded on Saturday morning?
S2 (03:14):
So it's very interesting because what I have come to
learn about this group, which is known as the National
Socialist Network, but rebranded as White Australia, is they are
incredibly well organized, incredibly savvy. They know what they're doing.
So on Saturday morning, they turned up on Macquarie Street
(03:37):
en masse outside Parliament House at 10 a.m. they were
there for less than ten minutes in and out and
about seven, as I understand it, enough time to stand
and pose in that now infamous photo of them in
a line in front of the historical Parliament. Then they
unfurled a banner, which of course we know said abolish
(03:58):
the Jewish lobby. And then there was some chants chance
around blood and honor, which invokes the Hitler Youth. Then
they were gone.
S4 (04:07):
Outside state parliament, almost 70 neo-Nazis from the White Australia group.
S5 (04:13):
Are bloody, not up.
S4 (04:16):
Armed with a banner that reads Abolish the Jewish lobby
and all of it approved by police.
S6 (04:22):
The Jewish lobby is destroying our nation.
S4 (04:25):
They claim the lobby is controlling the government and want
hate speech laws abolished.
S6 (04:30):
They bribe our politicians.
S2 (04:33):
There were police standing around, but they didn't do what
some protests do where they block the road. Of course,
Macquarie Street on a Saturday morning is very quiet. It's
not a busy thoroughfare like it is today on a
on a work day. And I think what this group
obviously knew how to do was make sure they stayed
(04:54):
within the law. They are advised by lawyers so they
know how to get in and out without. really striking
up any problems with the police. And that's what we
saw on Saturday.
S1 (05:07):
Okay, a number of questions come to mind, but let's
start with the first, I think, very obvious one, which
is how was the rally even allowed to go ahead,
given that the group that gave notice a week prior,
like you said, they're very well organized. You know, it's
a it's a well known neo-Nazi group, right?
S2 (05:24):
That's right. And this I think is where people are concerned.
There are two sides to it, though. The group submitted
a so-called form one form with the New South Wales Police,
everybody who wants to protest. And each year in New
South Wales, there's as many as 2000 protests. And the
organisers of those protests are required if they're going to
(05:45):
cause any problems, you know, obstruct the road, that kind
of thing, to notify police in advance. And of course,
we've heard through the pro-Palestinian protests that have gone on weekly,
that is what that group has done every week. You know,
lodged the form. This group did that in the required
time frame. The problem seems to be, and this is
where there's a lot of different legal argument. It's underway
(06:07):
as we speak. Different legal groups and different bodies are
trying to work out what actually constituted this group being
allowed to go ahead with this protest. And what it
would seem at this point is under the current laws,
they weren't breaking any laws. They were not doing anything
that enabled police to step in and say, stop, you
(06:29):
cannot do this. We will not allow this. The police
could have taken this to court, and we've seen the
police take other protests, such as the pro-Palestinian march across
the bridge several months ago that went to the court.
And of course, it was found in favour of the
Palestine Action Group. And that march went ahead. The police
could have done that, but they didn't. There is a
(06:51):
school of thought that perhaps the White Australia group had hoped, maybe,
that the police would indeed take this to court, because
what they really want is publicity. They want to be
seen as the victims. Any publicity is good publicity in
their mind anytime the media cover them. And I must admit,
this is where it's tricky for people like me. But
(07:12):
what they want is they want coverage. Because, as the
ASIO boss said recently, Mike Burgess, any publicity drives membership
for them. So in some ways there's this thought that
perhaps they deliberately put this form one in, knowing that
perhaps they didn't need to because of course, they weren't
planning to cross roads, delay traffic, hold up public transport.
(07:34):
They wanted a photo taken which was going to be
used as political collateral in their social media. But then,
of course, the police and they had legal advice, as is,
of course, important, obviously decided that a they couldn't challenge
the form in court and there was no way for
them to stop this protest or this rally. And so
it went ahead.
S7 (07:54):
But I want to ask you about.
S1 (07:56):
Stopping the protest, because they did have the banner that
said abolish the Jewish lobby. I imagine a lot of
listeners like myself are wondering, well, is that actually legal?
Is that something that arguably could incite racial hatred? And then,
of course, two NSN leaders spoke criticizing not only Jewish groups,
but Jewish people in general. So I think the obvious
(08:17):
question there is, would the police who are watching this,
would that not have been an obvious point at which
to disperse this group? Or, you know, like, is that
not something they should have done?
S2 (08:28):
And that is where it gets very tricky. Premier Chris
Minns has spoken about this, and he said the problem
is it happens very quickly. This was as I said,
they were in and out about seven minutes, I think,
and the police have to make a decision right there
and then as to whether groups are breaking the law.
The problem is it is not clear whether they were
(08:51):
breaking the laws. Horrific as that may sound to Jewish
groups or just reasonable minded people, that what they were
saying was clearly hatred and awful. but does it break
the law? And it would seem at this point it didn't.
So this is why people like Chris Minns is talking
about having to strengthen racial hate laws, because at the moment,
(09:13):
what the group did doesn't appear to have been illegal.
I mean, there may be charges laid based on, as
you said, some of the comments that the two leaders
later made about Jewish people. But there was a phrase
that they chanted blood and honour. Now, as it stands
and as it's been explained to me under the racial
vilification laws, that is not illegal. It's very interesting that
(09:36):
in Germany, under their criminal code, they introduced such things
as that phrase because it invokes the Hitler Youth to
be illegal. So there is some suggestion that New South
Wales may look to Germany's laws. I mean, obviously they
have a very different approach, understandably, but it looks as though,
given a problem is now in our state that we
(09:58):
didn't really ever anticipate. I mean, nobody thought that Nazis
were coming into New South Wales and trying to set
up a political group. But the reality is that's where
we're at. And so maybe the laws now need to
be changed is the argument of the Premier. Of course,
there will also be the flip side where people say,
you can't just keep changing laws because every time you
(10:20):
change a law, groups find ways around, you know, different aspects.
That is true. But I think what we know is
that probably what went on on Saturday didn't break any
current laws.
S1 (10:36):
We'll be right back. Okay. And so I do wonder, though,
whether there was a screw up. I mean, I know
that our mastheads have written a lot about this because
the police commissioner, Mal Lanyon, and the Premier, Chris Minns,
they've both said that they didn't know about the event
before it was held. Presumably they should have been told beforehand.
I would have thought as a reasonable thinking person. So
(10:58):
I guess, at what point did the New South Wales
government discover that the rally was going to take place.
S2 (11:03):
They discovered, after it had taken place. When you're talking
about Mal Lanyon, the police commissioner, and premier, Chris Minns,
they discovered when the Sydney Morning Herald put questions into
their respective offices and said, why did this happen? There
was a very quickly organised press conference with both Lanyon
and Minns to discuss this, but the two made it
(11:25):
very clear that the first they knew about it was
after the event had taken place, which is clearly very
problematic and I would also argue, somewhat embarrassing for the
premier of the state. I mean, to not know something
like this had taken place. It wasn't secretive. It wasn't
done in some hidden underground meeting place. The Herald had
heard it was happening. This form had been put in
(11:47):
formally with the police. The speaker of the New South
Wales Parliament, Greg Piper, knew it was taking place late
on Friday night and had contacted the special constables, who
were responsible for the security of Parliament House and said
what is going on? Can we stop this? Their advice
was no, we can't. So people knew this was taking place.
So it was embarrassing for the Premier. It was embarrassing.
(12:09):
More so, probably for Mal Lanyon, because it was clear
that this information wasn't passed up the chain to him.
He's a new commissioner. He's not warning any sort of
early black marks, and he had to come out and
sort of say, yeah, no one, no one told me.
S7 (12:26):
I mean, that is really embarrassing.
S1 (12:27):
I know that the deputy police commissioner has said it
was a communication oversight, as I believe the term that
he used is that all it was like, was this
really just a small screw up or is it perhaps
a suggestion or. I don't know that there's something bigger here.
S2 (12:42):
Yeah. Look, I think, you know, with no further evidence
at this point. Yes, it was a screw up, but
that doesn't take away from the enormity of the issue,
does it? Probably people looked at this form, had legal
advice from within the police which said, there is nothing
we can do to stop this protest, obviously. You know,
(13:04):
free speech is a very important principle of a democracy.
There is nothing we can do. Let's just hope that
they get in, get out, don't create any trouble for us.
And then we move on. And in some ways that happened.
But equally, the problem is, as I've said, this is
not some group that was nobody had heard of sort
(13:26):
of joined together of some fringe dwellers. The head of
ASIO spoke about this very group just last week, saying
how concerned he was about them. Police commissioners have given
evidence before parliamentary inquiries in recent months about the fact
that they're tracking this group. They know they're around. They're concerned.
It should have raised red flags, perhaps even if there
(13:50):
was nothing legally they could have done at that point,
I think the premier of the state needed to know.
Certainly the Commissioner of Police needed to know. And I
think now it just highlights and reminds everybody of the
threat that we sort of have. This group is not
going away. They want to recruit enough members to register
a political party to run in the 2027 state election.
(14:14):
They're not giving up. They're not just sort of a
part time here for a short time group. They're growing and,
you know, it should be. And it is a big
concern to New South Wales.
S1 (14:24):
And it's interesting you say that because I know that,
you know, the Australian Federal Police set up just last
month a new national security investigations teams, as I understand it,
to focus on groups including the NHSN, now called White Australia,
due to concern about the group's aspirations to form a
political party. So is New South Wales something of a
weak link here? Because our colleague Jessica McSweeney just reported
(14:46):
yesterday that Joel Davis, who's a key figure in this group,
that he told followers just last week that a New
South Wales upper house campaign was likely the easiest path
to victory as the group tries to rebrand as the
White Australia Party. So is New South Wales something of
a weak link here?
S2 (15:03):
It's not so much as a of a weak link.
I mean, when you look at the makeup of the
New South Wales upper house, it has a history of
small parties. Over the years we've had many minor parties
in the upper house, you know, very different on the
other side of the political spectrum, of course. But, you know,
we've got the Animal Justice Party, we've had one nation
and it's because of the and this is now getting
(15:24):
into a whole different area. It's because of the voting
system to get people elected to the upper house. So
I don't think it's so much that New South Wales
is suddenly going to welcome neo-Nazis with open arms. I
think the way in which our upper house is set
up electorally means that minor parties do have the opportunity
to get elected. That does not mean, of course, that
(15:44):
the neo-Nazis will. What? Australia will suddenly have representatives in
the upper house. Nonetheless, if they can get enough members
to form a party, then at least they can run.
And even that in itself, even if they're not getting elected,
if they're on the ballot paper, if they're at, you know,
Schools handing out how to vote cards. It starts to,
(16:05):
I think, become a very big threat to a lot
of to, you know, to everything we kind of have
worked to achieve in New South Wales around harmony and diversity.
And so even if they don't get elected, and I
would find it difficult to believe that they would, nonetheless,
they may well register as a political party. And that's
the first step, isn't it?
S1 (16:24):
Absolutely. And can you tell us what do we know
about what the impact on the Jewish community has been
here to the rally, whether just in New South Wales
or even more broadly, if we've heard from Jewish organisations
across Australia. Like, are people fearful, perhaps something else?
S2 (16:39):
Absolutely. I mean, understandably, the Jewish groups came out very
quickly and expressed their absolute dismay that not only does
this group exist, but that this rally went ahead. I mean,
it's hugely, hugely hurtful for the Jewish community and understandably so.
Even worse, in some ways, I think, is the fact
(17:02):
that two female members of Parliament are Kelly Sloane, who
was a state member for Vaucluse, and Allegra Spender, who
is the federal member for Wentworth, had death threats and
rape threats levelled at them. Now they are two MPs
who have very big Jewish populations in their electorate. You know,
they're speaking for the people they represent. They have every
(17:23):
right to come out and be critical of this group.
But of course, then they face a barrage of awful,
awful material. Kelly Sloane had to shut down her X
account because she just could not bear what was coming
her way. These threats have been reported to police, but
it just shows how nasty it's getting and how hurtful
(17:44):
and how much you know, hate. This group really manages
to get out in the community.
S1 (17:50):
And Alex, I guess just to wrap up, it's left
me wondering whether there's any suggestion that there is perhaps
latent racism or just cluelessness about the dangers or threats
of racism or perhaps even anti-Semitism, specifically within our state
government or police force?
S2 (18:07):
I don't think so. I think that given the terrible
few years that we've had since, you know, the awful
attacks on Israel, I think people are very, very aware
of the impacts of racism, particularly of anti-Semitism. You know,
that has dominated the political debate for a long time.
(18:28):
But I think perhaps, you know, the idea that we
had finally reached a place in society where we were
more welcoming of groups, we were welcoming of diversity. Maybe
we got complacent because it just shows that if you
just take your eye off events for a moment, it
can explode quickly. And I think that's what we're seeing.
So I think the state government is very aware of
(18:52):
emerging problems in society such as racism, the rise of anti-Semitism.
It's just keeping up with that which has shown to
be problematic.
S1 (19:04):
Yeah, well, we are so lucky that you are. You know,
they're on the ground reporting on this. So thank you
so much, Alex, for your time.
S2 (19:11):
Thanks, Sam.
S1 (19:18):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
Mackendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(19:40):
visit the page or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.
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