November 23, 2025 • 27 mins
Shortly after Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022, Australia banned the importation of Russian crude oil. Even so, Russian oil is still making its way to our shores, and into our petrol.
Kateryna Argyrou calls this blood oil - money from which goes to fund the Kremlin’s war machine.
Today, Argryou, who chairs the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organisations and is also honorary consul of Ukraine in Sydney, joins Europe correspondent David Crowe.
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S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris. It's Monday,
November 24th. Shortly after Russias invasion of Ukraine in 2022,
Australia banned the importation of Russian crude oil. Even so,
(00:22):
Russian oil is still making its way to our shores
and into our petrol.
S2 (00:27):
Has the time come to take the ultimate sanction and
ban Russian oil?
S3 (00:32):
Its been revealed Australia was the single biggest buyer of
Russian oil.
S4 (00:35):
While Australia sends our old tanks to Ukraine to help
its war effort. We're just learning. We're accepting fuel tankers
loaded with Russian oil in return.
S1 (00:46):
Katerina Argyrou calls this blood oil money from which goes
to fund the Kremlins war machine.
S5 (00:54):
Australians are taking money out of their pocket, their hard
earned cash unknowingly filling up their tanks, unknowingly investing their
money that goes to profit. The Russian Federation that goes
to profit. These companies that are indirectly supporting a war machine.
S1 (01:10):
Today are Giroux, who chairs the Australian Federation of Ukrainian
Organisations and is also honorary consul of Ukraine in Sydney,
joins Europe correspondent David Crowe. Welcome to you both.
S5 (01:25):
Thank you.
S6 (01:26):
Great to be talking.
S1 (01:27):
Now, David, I'm going to start with you. You have
described oil as the next flashpoint in the Australian debate
about the war in Ukraine. Why?
S6 (01:36):
Because it's got to a point where there's oil that's
been flowing into Australia that is sourced from Russian crude,
and it's been going on for such a period of
time now that the volume of money that's going back
to Moscow can be measured in billions of dollars, and
that means that Australian motorists unwittingly are helping to fund
(01:59):
that war machine when they fill up the petrol tank. Now,
the reason it's a particular flashpoint at the moment is
because we have seen globally some moves to go harder
on sanctions against the two big Russian oil exporters, Rosneft
and Lukoil, and Donald Trump. The US president has done that.
(02:21):
He did that last month in a sign of his impatience,
I think, with the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin. So we
do see changes in the global oil market. Uh, and
I think that that heightens the attention on what Australia
is doing. And it means that there's, I guess, an
added urgency about the decisions to be made in Canberra
(02:43):
and the decisions to be made about the oil importers
that sell the oil to Australian motorists so that the
money stops flowing to Moscow.
S1 (02:52):
Okay. So we're going to get into the specifics of that.
But David, I just want to stick with you for
another moment, because Australia actually imposed sanctions on Russia after
the invasion of Ukraine. So how is Russian oil then
still making its way to the petrol bowser here?
S6 (03:07):
I think the key thing is that they're working with
a commodity that's got value anywhere in the world. And
we know that even though there were sanctions imposed on
Russia in various ways after the full scale invasion in
February 2022, what happened is that Russia found ways to
continue exporting that oil. First of all, there were countries
(03:29):
that did not ban the oil and they continued to
receive it. Also, there was a shadow fleet created that
enabled Russia to keep shipping that oil around the world
to evade the sanctions. But I think for Australia's purposes,
a lot of the focus is on countries that have
refineries that supply to Australia. And some of those refineries
(03:52):
are taking a lot of Russian oil. There are refineries
in India that do this. There's a refinery in Malaysia
that does it, and there are refineries in China that
do it. But I think a lot of the focus
has been on India. And the reason for that is
that it's a big supplier of petrol and diesel to Australia.
And also some of the big Indian refineries have got
(04:12):
contracts with Russian suppliers. One of them in particular is
a refinery in a city called Jamnagar in Gujarat. And
it has, according to analysts I've talked to, it's relied
on Russian crude for about 47% of its input. So
when it's shipping, um, or when it's processing that Russian
(04:33):
crude and shipping petrol and diesel onto Australia, I think
it's very fair to estimate that about 47% of those
shipments are sourced from Russian crude.
S1 (04:49):
Okay, so, Katerina, I'd love to go to you now.
I mean, some have called this blood oil. Why?
S5 (04:54):
Well, because if, uh, as David mentioned, um, if we
know that Australia is importing Eating refined Russian crude, and
there are various countries, as David referred to, that are
used as this laundromat where it goes in and gets
refined and then comes in as a as a refined product.
(05:15):
We know that it is sourced from Russia. Therefore, money
is going back to Russia. And we know that a
significant portion of the Russian economy is geared towards producing
things for the Russian war effort. Things like missiles, things
like drones that go and attack Ukrainian cities and kill
Ukrainian civilians every single day. Therefore, it is directly responsible
(05:39):
for the bloodshed that's currently happening on Ukrainian territory.
S1 (05:42):
And very sadly, you actually have felt very personally the
suffering from this war. And would you tell our listeners
a little bit about your cousin and your mother, what
they've experienced?
S5 (05:53):
Yes. Um, so I was recently speaking to a colleague
and they asked me, you know, why are you so
passionate about this? And why do you advocate for Ukraine
so much? You're here in Australia. Your kids were born
in Australia. You lead a happy life here. Why is
this so important to you? Well, I may have a
(06:13):
very safe and happy life here, but my entire family
is back home in Ukraine. I have visited Ukraine a
number of times over the past year. Um, and since
the launch of the full scale invasion, I have seen
how Ukrainians have been impacted by this war. But even
(06:34):
more so, I have felt how my family has been
impacted by this war. My cousin, um, was, uh, decided
to go and defend Ukraine from the very first days
of the full scale, Russia's full scale invasion. He was
serving as a combat medic. He's got two little boys
at home. And despite the fact that he was serving
on the front line for three and a half years
(06:55):
and conducting evacuations on a daily basis, the stories that
I heard from him were horrific. uh, what goes on
on the battlefield? And, um, sadly, uh, back in July,
at the end of July, he was killed on the
front line. I received a call from his wife saying
(07:16):
that she couldn't be, that she couldn't get Ahold of him,
and she couldn't get Ahold of him for two days. And, uh,
because I visited him a couple of times, I knew
all of his commanders. I knew his brothers in arms.
I knew his friends that he was serving with. And
I called one of his closest friends his name, Said.he,
also a combat medic. I didn't even say hello. I
just said, tell me what happened. And he said, um, Yura,
(07:40):
my cousin's name is no longer with us. And I
couldn't believe it. I said, no, that's not possible. I'm
going to fly over. I'm going to find him. Maybe
he's just injured, or we'll find the best hospital for him.
We'll find the best rehab. If he's lost a leg
or arm, will find the best prosthetics for him. And
he just stopped me. He was like, you don't understand.
He's no longer with us. He was killed as he
was performing an evacuation of heavily too heavily wounded soldiers,
(08:05):
and he was killed with a Russian FPV drone, which
when we talk about this blood oil and what, um,
the import of refined Russian crude in Australia means for
me personally, it means the production of such weapons. It
means the production of drones, it means the production of
Shahed drones that Russia buys from other countries. It means
(08:25):
the missiles that Russia produces, that go and hit Ukrainian
civilian targets. So I have felt that firsthand. And now
I call my cousin's wife, uh, that's a widow at
32 little kids that still don't understand that their father
is gone, that the only place that they can see
him is by going to the cemetery and kissing his
(08:46):
photo on his grave, um, to to say hello or
good morning to their father. And, uh, that's just my
cousin's story. But every single member of my family has
been impacted in some shape, way or form. Most recently,
my mom experienced, a missile strike right next to her home,
next to her apartment building. It was such a loud
(09:07):
missile strike and heavy missile strike that the entire building shook.
It threw my mom across the room. Her windows were
blown out. She ended up in hospital with an internal
brain bleed, which she goes to the hospital now on
a regular basis, just to check to make sure she's okay.
She was lucky and survived, but many Ukrainians, we would
have seen the Ternopil attacks, which just struck a residential
(09:31):
building in the middle of the night, and that's what
Ukrainians have to live with and live in fear every
single day, because the neighbor next to them is waging
a genocidal war against an entire country.
S1 (09:48):
We'll be right back. And, David, I want to bring
you in here because can you tell us, I guess,
how much Russian oil is actually making its way to
petrol bowsers in Australia still. And how much of our
overall market does it actually represent?
S6 (10:07):
Yeah, that's a really important element here because I think
Katharina's story is, um, reminded us of, I guess, the
the importance of focusing on what's happening here with the oil.
There's a tendency, I think, to see the overseas news
(10:27):
about Ukraine and see another apartment building with blackened windows. Um,
but there's a human story behind each of those attacks,
and it's only happening because of the flow of funds
that are that are enabling Russia to withstand so many
of the sanctions. And so, I mean, that's a big
reason for focusing on the actual dollar value of the
(10:52):
the trade and the Australian connection. And there's a very
good research group in Europe, the centre for Research on
Energy and Clean air, and their estimate when they've tallied
up all the shipments is that since 2023, that's about
$3.8 billion in Australian spending on petrol and diesel from overseas.
(11:18):
That is sourced from Russian crude. So that's over a
couple of years now. Um, but it does highlight the
fact that at the time when, uh, Russia's been, you know.
Cementing a war machine, uh, that can continue despite so
(11:40):
many international sanctions. That flow of money is really important. Uh,
of course it's coming from other countries, too. There are
other places around the world that are buying Russian crude. Um,
but I think that there's a serious argument about how
that money is flowing from Australia, because the way I
look at it is if Russian oil is flowing Indirectly
(12:01):
from Russia to Australia. That means, by definition, money from
Australia is flowing again indirectly back to Russia. And so
that's the way the trade works.
S1 (12:15):
Okay. And we do know that the sale of Russian
oil is absolutely central to the Russian economy. But, Katerina,
is there any way to know how much money could
be going from Australia back to Russia over the sale
of this oil?
S5 (12:27):
Well, the numbers that we have relied on are the
ones that have been produced by cryo that David referred to.
And just to put it into perspective and why we
as a community became so alarmed was because, um, if
you look at the aid that has been provided by Australia,
this includes military aid, humanitarian aid, energy support, the entire
(12:50):
all the packages put together, that's about $1.5 billion. And
the Australian government often says that Australia is the largest
non-NATO contributor of military aid to Ukraine, which Australia has
something to be proud of. But then if you put
that against how much refined Russian crude Australia has been
(13:11):
importing and how much money has been sent back to
the Kremlin, that's over $2 billion. And so if you
put the A that's provided by, on the one hand,
$1.5 billion is eclipsed by the fact that Australia is
providing money to the Kremlin from the import of refined
Russian crude. Then naturally, you would think that as a country,
(13:32):
the biggest thing that we can do that will really
move the dial of Australia's support for Ukraine. It is
to cut off the funding of a war machine that
Australia unfortunately supports by the importation of this refined Russian
crude from third countries.
S1 (13:47):
And Caterina, just sticking with you. Do we know if
that money can actually be traced back to the Kremlin
and it's war that it's prosecuting against Ukraine specifically, or
is it sort of more symbolic that this money is
supporting Russia, and some of it might be going to
the war. Like, can we actually trace it directly to
the war effort?
S5 (14:05):
Yes, we can, because 40% of the Russian economy is
currently working for the war effort. It's the production of equipment.
It's the production of weapons. So we can definitely say
that maybe not every single dollar that goes from Australia
to to the Kremlin is funding the war effort. But
it is a significant chunk and that is very worrying.
S1 (14:28):
And David, over to you. What would the impact on
petrol prices be here in Australia if the government blocked
petrol and diesel from these Indian refineries that, like you said,
are taking a very significant amount of their crude oil
from Russia.
S6 (14:42):
I think a really key point is to remember that
there are sources of petrol and diesel into Australia that
are not using Russian crude. From what we can see,
South Korea is a reliable supplier of fuel to Australia
and it does not appear to be using Russian crude. Um, India,
(15:03):
the Jamnagar refinery that I mentioned has been using Russian crude. Uh,
I mentioned the 47% estimate earlier. It supplies about 10%
of the petrol and diesel um, into Australia, according to
the most recent estimates that we've seen. So that means
that if the Jamnagar refinery were to change its approach, um,
(15:29):
it may have an impact on its cost structure. But
we also know that Jamnagar, which is owned by Reliance Industries, uh,
run by the Ambani family, one of the wealthiest in India,
it's been making some very good profits because of the arbitrage,
in a sense, between the global price for oil and
the low price for Russian crude. Now, they've said they're
(15:52):
going to change their approach. This has only happened in
the last couple of days. So this is new news
about what they're doing. They've told me that they're not
going to be using Russian crude to send that petrol
and diesel to Australia. The estimate is that Jamnagar makes
up 90% of the Indian petrol and diesel exports to Australia,
(16:13):
so it's very important here. Um, but in turn that's
still only about 10% of the Australian market. So if
there is a change in the supply chain in India,
for instance, you can't say that that's going to affect
the price for half, half the industry in Australia. So
(16:34):
it's a an impact that can be managed by the industry.
But I think I'd be I'd be waiting to see
some estimates from economists before I said anything to cast
iron about what that would do.
S1 (16:46):
Although you did speak to an expert, I believe, from
the centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, who
said that removing that 10% oil supply that we currently
get from India, that that does use this Russian crude oil.
He said it should not have an inflationary effect at all.
Is that right?
S6 (17:01):
Yeah, that's that's what they've said. And also, I think
that the decision by, uh, Reliance Industries in their public
statement to me, which I can't verify because I can't
witness their refinery in Jamnagar. But when they say that
they can ship diesel and petrol to Australia without using
(17:23):
Russian crude, that says to me that they can do
that without a price impact that's going to cause them
trouble in the market.
S7 (17:31):
And Katerina.
S1 (17:32):
Are there other Western nations that are faced with a
similar problem, and how do you compare Australia's response?
S5 (17:38):
Yes there are. So when we were in Canberra last, uh,
our main argument as a community was that if we
look at the fact that Australia is the biggest offender
in terms of being the country that imports the most
refined Russian crude, let's look at other countries that were
in a similar position and what they have done. And
the most recent example is looking at the EU. So
(18:01):
the EU as a bloc imports more than Australia. Australia
is the largest single country importer. So in the 18th
package of sanctions implemented by the EU, which are meant
to go into effect January 2026, they have specifically announced
that they will be. The EU will be banning the
import of refined Russian crude from third countries. And if
(18:24):
you have an entire block of nations such as the EU,
implementing these sanctions and strengthening these sanctions on refined Russian
crude from third countries, then certainly that is something that
Australia can take example of and also follow suit.
S1 (18:37):
And so, David, you of course have been reporting in
this space. So what do you think Australia's next move
will be? I mean, is Australia looking to mirror the
tougher sanctions that, you know, the EU and I believe
the UK have imposed?
S6 (18:51):
It's hard to be really precise here because in just
in the way that I used to work in Canberra
now as the correspondent based in London. I'm relying on
sort of background conversation and so forth to get an
idea of where the government may go, but nobody's been
(19:13):
able to say to me specifically, this is what we're
planning to do, and it will happen. So I can't
assert with any great degree of confidence that something's going
to be done. But I do think that it's going
to be unsustainable for the federal government to not do
anything because, as Katrina mentioned, the new European rules say
(19:34):
they will not take refined product. There is no similar
rule in Australia yet. So it seems to me that
that's a pretty sharp argument to have about what our
government does. And in previous sanctions rounds, we've matched what
other countries do. So the obvious question is, well, why
(19:54):
aren't we matching what the European Union does? I don't
think it's simple in the sense that the government's got
to navigate a couple of things. For instance, um, we
don't want to have a diplomatic row with India. I mean,
they've had a row with Donald Trump, but we tend
to get along pretty well with India. So I'm sure
that behind the scenes, the government wants to navigate that
(20:16):
very carefully. Um, ditto with some other suppliers, but I
don't think that that absolves them of any responsibility here.
It's a complicating factor, but it shouldn't be a blocking factor.
When we see what other countries are doing around the world,
or what we might call like minded countries are doing
around the world.
S1 (20:35):
And I guess the question for you I have now, though, is,
is our government sort of passing the buck? Foreign Minister
Penny Wong has argued, okay, this isn't just for the
government to consider. She's called on oil companies to check
their supply chains to make sure that they're not paying
for Russian oil. So is our government just passing the buck,
you know, by sort of saying, hey, let's let's get
(20:55):
the businesses to do some of the work here. Like,
why doesn't our government just halt the import of refined
fuels produced from Russian crude. I mean, like you say,
obviously there's there's diplomacy to be taken into consideration, but yeah.
S6 (21:08):
Yeah, I think that's a yeah, you've sharpened the point
there because the government can't pass the buck can it.
What we're dealing with or what we're confronting is the
biggest war in Europe since the Second World War. And
I know there's been the war in Gaza as well,
but the Ukraine war is a massive war causing incredible
(21:30):
damage and incredible suffering. And I don't think sustainable for
a government to say the onus is on the private
sector to fix this problem. The onus is on governments
to stand up, as Australian government does on other issues
and decide its diplomatic, economic and political response to this
(21:53):
European crisis. And I guess a key point about the
companies is when I went to each of the Major
fuel supplies in Australia. Uh, one of them, Caltex, said.
We're not taking any Indian oil that might be tainted
by Russian crude, but most of them simply wouldn't answer
(22:14):
my questions about whether they were buying petrol and diesel
from India that might be sourced from Russian crude. I
think when we track the ships, we can see that
they probably are, but they won't own up to it.
So if they won't even admit where they're getting their
petrol and diesel from, uh, I think we should assume
(22:36):
that the companies won't act on this by themselves. It
is a government decision in the end.
S5 (22:43):
And if I could just add to that, on the
company side, we as a community have also reached out
to a list of companies that we were provided. We
reached out to BP, we reached out to Ampol, um, ExxonMobil,
um Viva, and some of them completely ignored us and
others just said that we are acting in line with
(23:04):
all Australian rules, laws, regulations and sanctions. So the fact
that they are exploiting a sanctions loophole legally, they can
do that, which is why we are trying to get
this sanctions loophole closed. But from the Importer's perspective, they're
not doing anything wrong in terms of the law. So
that's why we are very much advocating with the government
(23:27):
to make sure that the importers are not acting on
their own will. We are asking for the government to
step in and to make sure that there are rules
and regulations in place that don't allow them to import
this blood oil.
S1 (23:40):
And so, finally, Katerina, you've spoken so movingly about how
this war has impacted your family. Of course, your cousin,
who died at only 32. I know he left behind
two young sons. I think they were only six and
four years old. And of course, his widow, Yuliana. Your mother,
you've said, is still there. So what would it mean
to you if Australia did block the blood oil trade.
(24:03):
Like how important would it be for you?
S5 (24:06):
Well, let me start with a question that I recently
was asked, um, in terms of this campaign, why we're
trying to get Australia to stop the import of this
blood oil. They said, you know, you're acting as if
you have nothing to lose. You're going against corporates, you're
going against Superfunds, you're going against the Australian government. Why
are you acting like you have nothing to lose? And
(24:27):
that's when I turned around and I thought about it
and I said, actually, I have everything to lose. I
lost my cousin already. I almost lost my mum. I
have my entire family that's under daily bombardment and I'm
just one person. And so when the stakes are so high,
when it's a matter of life and death, then it
(24:47):
would mean the world to me, to my family, and
to every single Ukrainian that's hunted by Russian drones and
Russian missiles that are manufactured with the finances of partially
this export of Russian oil that's refined in third countries
and ends up here in Australia, and Australians are taking
(25:08):
money out of their pocket, their hard earned cash, their
hard earned money that's in super superannuation funds, unknowingly filling
up their tanks, unknowingly investing their money that goes to profit,
the Russian Federation, that goes to profit. Um, these, these
companies that are indirectly supporting a war machine and a
(25:29):
genocidal regime that is doing everything to absolutely wipe Ukraine
off the face of the earth. So it would mean
the world to me if we as Australians would stop
financing those sort of war crimes.
S1 (25:45):
Well, Katerina, thank you so much for sharing your story
with us and your perspective. I imagine many listeners would
be like myself. They would have had no idea that
this oil laundering took place. So thank you. And thank
you so much, David, as well for your time.
S8 (25:59):
Thanks. It's good to talk.
S5 (26:01):
Thank you for the opportunity. And David, thank you for
the time and effort that you've put in to highlight
this issue.
S1 (26:15):
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(26:37):
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in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger, Morris, thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris. It's Monday,
November 24th. Shortly after Russias invasion of Ukraine in 2022,
Australia banned the importation of Russian crude oil. Even so,
(00:22):
Russian oil is still making its way to our shores
and into our petrol.
S2 (00:27):
Has the time come to take the ultimate sanction and
ban Russian oil?
S3 (00:32):
Its been revealed Australia was the single biggest buyer of
Russian oil.
S4 (00:35):
While Australia sends our old tanks to Ukraine to help
its war effort. We're just learning. We're accepting fuel tankers
loaded with Russian oil in return.
S1 (00:46):
Katerina Argyrou calls this blood oil money from which goes
to fund the Kremlins war machine.
S5 (00:54):
Australians are taking money out of their pocket, their hard
earned cash unknowingly filling up their tanks, unknowingly investing their
money that goes to profit. The Russian Federation that goes
to profit. These companies that are indirectly supporting a war machine.
S1 (01:10):
Today are Giroux, who chairs the Australian Federation of Ukrainian
Organisations and is also honorary consul of Ukraine in Sydney,
joins Europe correspondent David Crowe. Welcome to you both.
S5 (01:25):
Thank you.
S6 (01:26):
Great to be talking.
S1 (01:27):
Now, David, I'm going to start with you. You have
described oil as the next flashpoint in the Australian debate
about the war in Ukraine. Why?
S6 (01:36):
Because it's got to a point where there's oil that's
been flowing into Australia that is sourced from Russian crude,
and it's been going on for such a period of
time now that the volume of money that's going back
to Moscow can be measured in billions of dollars, and
that means that Australian motorists unwittingly are helping to fund
(01:59):
that war machine when they fill up the petrol tank. Now,
the reason it's a particular flashpoint at the moment is
because we have seen globally some moves to go harder
on sanctions against the two big Russian oil exporters, Rosneft
and Lukoil, and Donald Trump. The US president has done that.
(02:21):
He did that last month in a sign of his impatience,
I think, with the Russian leader, Vladimir Putin. So we
do see changes in the global oil market. Uh, and
I think that that heightens the attention on what Australia
is doing. And it means that there's, I guess, an
added urgency about the decisions to be made in Canberra
(02:43):
and the decisions to be made about the oil importers
that sell the oil to Australian motorists so that the
money stops flowing to Moscow.
S1 (02:52):
Okay. So we're going to get into the specifics of that.
But David, I just want to stick with you for
another moment, because Australia actually imposed sanctions on Russia after
the invasion of Ukraine. So how is Russian oil then
still making its way to the petrol bowser here?
S6 (03:07):
I think the key thing is that they're working with
a commodity that's got value anywhere in the world. And
we know that even though there were sanctions imposed on
Russia in various ways after the full scale invasion in
February 2022, what happened is that Russia found ways to
continue exporting that oil. First of all, there were countries
(03:29):
that did not ban the oil and they continued to
receive it. Also, there was a shadow fleet created that
enabled Russia to keep shipping that oil around the world
to evade the sanctions. But I think for Australia's purposes,
a lot of the focus is on countries that have
refineries that supply to Australia. And some of those refineries
(03:52):
are taking a lot of Russian oil. There are refineries
in India that do this. There's a refinery in Malaysia
that does it, and there are refineries in China that
do it. But I think a lot of the focus
has been on India. And the reason for that is
that it's a big supplier of petrol and diesel to Australia.
And also some of the big Indian refineries have got
(04:12):
contracts with Russian suppliers. One of them in particular is
a refinery in a city called Jamnagar in Gujarat. And
it has, according to analysts I've talked to, it's relied
on Russian crude for about 47% of its input. So
when it's shipping, um, or when it's processing that Russian
(04:33):
crude and shipping petrol and diesel onto Australia, I think
it's very fair to estimate that about 47% of those
shipments are sourced from Russian crude.
S1 (04:49):
Okay, so, Katerina, I'd love to go to you now.
I mean, some have called this blood oil. Why?
S5 (04:54):
Well, because if, uh, as David mentioned, um, if we
know that Australia is importing Eating refined Russian crude, and
there are various countries, as David referred to, that are
used as this laundromat where it goes in and gets
refined and then comes in as a as a refined product.
(05:15):
We know that it is sourced from Russia. Therefore, money
is going back to Russia. And we know that a
significant portion of the Russian economy is geared towards producing
things for the Russian war effort. Things like missiles, things
like drones that go and attack Ukrainian cities and kill
Ukrainian civilians every single day. Therefore, it is directly responsible
(05:39):
for the bloodshed that's currently happening on Ukrainian territory.
S1 (05:42):
And very sadly, you actually have felt very personally the
suffering from this war. And would you tell our listeners
a little bit about your cousin and your mother, what
they've experienced?
S5 (05:53):
Yes. Um, so I was recently speaking to a colleague
and they asked me, you know, why are you so
passionate about this? And why do you advocate for Ukraine
so much? You're here in Australia. Your kids were born
in Australia. You lead a happy life here. Why is
this so important to you? Well, I may have a
(06:13):
very safe and happy life here, but my entire family
is back home in Ukraine. I have visited Ukraine a
number of times over the past year. Um, and since
the launch of the full scale invasion, I have seen
how Ukrainians have been impacted by this war. But even
(06:34):
more so, I have felt how my family has been
impacted by this war. My cousin, um, was, uh, decided
to go and defend Ukraine from the very first days
of the full scale, Russia's full scale invasion. He was
serving as a combat medic. He's got two little boys
at home. And despite the fact that he was serving
on the front line for three and a half years
(06:55):
and conducting evacuations on a daily basis, the stories that
I heard from him were horrific. uh, what goes on
on the battlefield? And, um, sadly, uh, back in July,
at the end of July, he was killed on the
front line. I received a call from his wife saying
(07:16):
that she couldn't be, that she couldn't get Ahold of him,
and she couldn't get Ahold of him for two days. And, uh,
because I visited him a couple of times, I knew
all of his commanders. I knew his brothers in arms.
I knew his friends that he was serving with. And
I called one of his closest friends his name, Said.he,
also a combat medic. I didn't even say hello. I
just said, tell me what happened. And he said, um, Yura,
(07:40):
my cousin's name is no longer with us. And I
couldn't believe it. I said, no, that's not possible. I'm
going to fly over. I'm going to find him. Maybe
he's just injured, or we'll find the best hospital for him.
We'll find the best rehab. If he's lost a leg
or arm, will find the best prosthetics for him. And
he just stopped me. He was like, you don't understand.
He's no longer with us. He was killed as he
was performing an evacuation of heavily too heavily wounded soldiers,
(08:05):
and he was killed with a Russian FPV drone, which
when we talk about this blood oil and what, um,
the import of refined Russian crude in Australia means for
me personally, it means the production of such weapons. It
means the production of drones, it means the production of
Shahed drones that Russia buys from other countries. It means
(08:25):
the missiles that Russia produces, that go and hit Ukrainian
civilian targets. So I have felt that firsthand. And now
I call my cousin's wife, uh, that's a widow at
32 little kids that still don't understand that their father
is gone, that the only place that they can see
him is by going to the cemetery and kissing his
(08:46):
photo on his grave, um, to to say hello or
good morning to their father. And, uh, that's just my
cousin's story. But every single member of my family has
been impacted in some shape, way or form. Most recently,
my mom experienced, a missile strike right next to her home,
next to her apartment building. It was such a loud
(09:07):
missile strike and heavy missile strike that the entire building shook.
It threw my mom across the room. Her windows were
blown out. She ended up in hospital with an internal
brain bleed, which she goes to the hospital now on
a regular basis, just to check to make sure she's okay.
She was lucky and survived, but many Ukrainians, we would
have seen the Ternopil attacks, which just struck a residential
(09:31):
building in the middle of the night, and that's what
Ukrainians have to live with and live in fear every
single day, because the neighbor next to them is waging
a genocidal war against an entire country.
S1 (09:48):
We'll be right back. And, David, I want to bring
you in here because can you tell us, I guess,
how much Russian oil is actually making its way to
petrol bowsers in Australia still. And how much of our
overall market does it actually represent?
S6 (10:07):
Yeah, that's a really important element here because I think
Katharina's story is, um, reminded us of, I guess, the
the importance of focusing on what's happening here with the oil.
There's a tendency, I think, to see the overseas news
(10:27):
about Ukraine and see another apartment building with blackened windows. Um,
but there's a human story behind each of those attacks,
and it's only happening because of the flow of funds
that are that are enabling Russia to withstand so many
of the sanctions. And so, I mean, that's a big
reason for focusing on the actual dollar value of the
(10:52):
the trade and the Australian connection. And there's a very
good research group in Europe, the centre for Research on
Energy and Clean air, and their estimate when they've tallied
up all the shipments is that since 2023, that's about
$3.8 billion in Australian spending on petrol and diesel from overseas.
(11:18):
That is sourced from Russian crude. So that's over a
couple of years now. Um, but it does highlight the
fact that at the time when, uh, Russia's been, you know.
Cementing a war machine, uh, that can continue despite so
(11:40):
many international sanctions. That flow of money is really important. Uh,
of course it's coming from other countries, too. There are
other places around the world that are buying Russian crude. Um,
but I think that there's a serious argument about how
that money is flowing from Australia, because the way I
look at it is if Russian oil is flowing Indirectly
(12:01):
from Russia to Australia. That means, by definition, money from
Australia is flowing again indirectly back to Russia. And so
that's the way the trade works.
S1 (12:15):
Okay. And we do know that the sale of Russian
oil is absolutely central to the Russian economy. But, Katerina,
is there any way to know how much money could
be going from Australia back to Russia over the sale
of this oil?
S5 (12:27):
Well, the numbers that we have relied on are the
ones that have been produced by cryo that David referred to.
And just to put it into perspective and why we
as a community became so alarmed was because, um, if
you look at the aid that has been provided by Australia,
this includes military aid, humanitarian aid, energy support, the entire
(12:50):
all the packages put together, that's about $1.5 billion. And
the Australian government often says that Australia is the largest
non-NATO contributor of military aid to Ukraine, which Australia has
something to be proud of. But then if you put
that against how much refined Russian crude Australia has been
(13:11):
importing and how much money has been sent back to
the Kremlin, that's over $2 billion. And so if you
put the A that's provided by, on the one hand,
$1.5 billion is eclipsed by the fact that Australia is
providing money to the Kremlin from the import of refined
Russian crude. Then naturally, you would think that as a country,
(13:32):
the biggest thing that we can do that will really
move the dial of Australia's support for Ukraine. It is
to cut off the funding of a war machine that
Australia unfortunately supports by the importation of this refined Russian
crude from third countries.
S1 (13:47):
And Caterina, just sticking with you. Do we know if
that money can actually be traced back to the Kremlin
and it's war that it's prosecuting against Ukraine specifically, or
is it sort of more symbolic that this money is
supporting Russia, and some of it might be going to
the war. Like, can we actually trace it directly to
the war effort?
S5 (14:05):
Yes, we can, because 40% of the Russian economy is
currently working for the war effort. It's the production of equipment.
It's the production of weapons. So we can definitely say
that maybe not every single dollar that goes from Australia
to to the Kremlin is funding the war effort. But
it is a significant chunk and that is very worrying.
S1 (14:28):
And David, over to you. What would the impact on
petrol prices be here in Australia if the government blocked
petrol and diesel from these Indian refineries that, like you said,
are taking a very significant amount of their crude oil
from Russia.
S6 (14:42):
I think a really key point is to remember that
there are sources of petrol and diesel into Australia that
are not using Russian crude. From what we can see,
South Korea is a reliable supplier of fuel to Australia
and it does not appear to be using Russian crude. Um, India,
(15:03):
the Jamnagar refinery that I mentioned has been using Russian crude. Uh,
I mentioned the 47% estimate earlier. It supplies about 10%
of the petrol and diesel um, into Australia, according to
the most recent estimates that we've seen. So that means
that if the Jamnagar refinery were to change its approach, um,
(15:29):
it may have an impact on its cost structure. But
we also know that Jamnagar, which is owned by Reliance Industries, uh,
run by the Ambani family, one of the wealthiest in India,
it's been making some very good profits because of the arbitrage,
in a sense, between the global price for oil and
the low price for Russian crude. Now, they've said they're
(15:52):
going to change their approach. This has only happened in
the last couple of days. So this is new news
about what they're doing. They've told me that they're not
going to be using Russian crude to send that petrol
and diesel to Australia. The estimate is that Jamnagar makes
up 90% of the Indian petrol and diesel exports to Australia,
(16:13):
so it's very important here. Um, but in turn that's
still only about 10% of the Australian market. So if
there is a change in the supply chain in India,
for instance, you can't say that that's going to affect
the price for half, half the industry in Australia. So
(16:34):
it's a an impact that can be managed by the industry.
But I think I'd be I'd be waiting to see
some estimates from economists before I said anything to cast
iron about what that would do.
S1 (16:46):
Although you did speak to an expert, I believe, from
the centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air, who
said that removing that 10% oil supply that we currently
get from India, that that does use this Russian crude oil.
He said it should not have an inflationary effect at all.
Is that right?
S6 (17:01):
Yeah, that's that's what they've said. And also, I think
that the decision by, uh, Reliance Industries in their public
statement to me, which I can't verify because I can't
witness their refinery in Jamnagar. But when they say that
they can ship diesel and petrol to Australia without using
(17:23):
Russian crude, that says to me that they can do
that without a price impact that's going to cause them
trouble in the market.
S7 (17:31):
And Katerina.
S1 (17:32):
Are there other Western nations that are faced with a
similar problem, and how do you compare Australia's response?
S5 (17:38):
Yes there are. So when we were in Canberra last, uh,
our main argument as a community was that if we
look at the fact that Australia is the biggest offender
in terms of being the country that imports the most
refined Russian crude, let's look at other countries that were
in a similar position and what they have done. And
the most recent example is looking at the EU. So
(18:01):
the EU as a bloc imports more than Australia. Australia
is the largest single country importer. So in the 18th
package of sanctions implemented by the EU, which are meant
to go into effect January 2026, they have specifically announced
that they will be. The EU will be banning the
import of refined Russian crude from third countries. And if
(18:24):
you have an entire block of nations such as the EU,
implementing these sanctions and strengthening these sanctions on refined Russian
crude from third countries, then certainly that is something that
Australia can take example of and also follow suit.
S1 (18:37):
And so, David, you of course have been reporting in
this space. So what do you think Australia's next move
will be? I mean, is Australia looking to mirror the
tougher sanctions that, you know, the EU and I believe
the UK have imposed?
S6 (18:51):
It's hard to be really precise here because in just
in the way that I used to work in Canberra
now as the correspondent based in London. I'm relying on
sort of background conversation and so forth to get an
idea of where the government may go, but nobody's been
(19:13):
able to say to me specifically, this is what we're
planning to do, and it will happen. So I can't
assert with any great degree of confidence that something's going
to be done. But I do think that it's going
to be unsustainable for the federal government to not do
anything because, as Katrina mentioned, the new European rules say
(19:34):
they will not take refined product. There is no similar
rule in Australia yet. So it seems to me that
that's a pretty sharp argument to have about what our
government does. And in previous sanctions rounds, we've matched what
other countries do. So the obvious question is, well, why
(19:54):
aren't we matching what the European Union does? I don't
think it's simple in the sense that the government's got
to navigate a couple of things. For instance, um, we
don't want to have a diplomatic row with India. I mean,
they've had a row with Donald Trump, but we tend
to get along pretty well with India. So I'm sure
that behind the scenes, the government wants to navigate that
(20:16):
very carefully. Um, ditto with some other suppliers, but I
don't think that that absolves them of any responsibility here.
It's a complicating factor, but it shouldn't be a blocking factor.
When we see what other countries are doing around the world,
or what we might call like minded countries are doing
around the world.
S1 (20:35):
And I guess the question for you I have now, though, is,
is our government sort of passing the buck? Foreign Minister
Penny Wong has argued, okay, this isn't just for the
government to consider. She's called on oil companies to check
their supply chains to make sure that they're not paying
for Russian oil. So is our government just passing the buck,
you know, by sort of saying, hey, let's let's get
(20:55):
the businesses to do some of the work here. Like,
why doesn't our government just halt the import of refined
fuels produced from Russian crude. I mean, like you say,
obviously there's there's diplomacy to be taken into consideration, but yeah.
S6 (21:08):
Yeah, I think that's a yeah, you've sharpened the point
there because the government can't pass the buck can it.
What we're dealing with or what we're confronting is the
biggest war in Europe since the Second World War. And
I know there's been the war in Gaza as well,
but the Ukraine war is a massive war causing incredible
(21:30):
damage and incredible suffering. And I don't think sustainable for
a government to say the onus is on the private
sector to fix this problem. The onus is on governments
to stand up, as Australian government does on other issues
and decide its diplomatic, economic and political response to this
(21:53):
European crisis. And I guess a key point about the
companies is when I went to each of the Major
fuel supplies in Australia. Uh, one of them, Caltex, said.
We're not taking any Indian oil that might be tainted
by Russian crude, but most of them simply wouldn't answer
(22:14):
my questions about whether they were buying petrol and diesel
from India that might be sourced from Russian crude. I
think when we track the ships, we can see that
they probably are, but they won't own up to it.
So if they won't even admit where they're getting their
petrol and diesel from, uh, I think we should assume
(22:36):
that the companies won't act on this by themselves. It
is a government decision in the end.
S5 (22:43):
And if I could just add to that, on the
company side, we as a community have also reached out
to a list of companies that we were provided. We
reached out to BP, we reached out to Ampol, um, ExxonMobil,
um Viva, and some of them completely ignored us and
others just said that we are acting in line with
(23:04):
all Australian rules, laws, regulations and sanctions. So the fact
that they are exploiting a sanctions loophole legally, they can
do that, which is why we are trying to get
this sanctions loophole closed. But from the Importer's perspective, they're
not doing anything wrong in terms of the law. So
that's why we are very much advocating with the government
(23:27):
to make sure that the importers are not acting on
their own will. We are asking for the government to
step in and to make sure that there are rules
and regulations in place that don't allow them to import
this blood oil.
S1 (23:40):
And so, finally, Katerina, you've spoken so movingly about how
this war has impacted your family. Of course, your cousin,
who died at only 32. I know he left behind
two young sons. I think they were only six and
four years old. And of course, his widow, Yuliana. Your mother,
you've said, is still there. So what would it mean
to you if Australia did block the blood oil trade.
(24:03):
Like how important would it be for you?
S5 (24:06):
Well, let me start with a question that I recently
was asked, um, in terms of this campaign, why we're
trying to get Australia to stop the import of this
blood oil. They said, you know, you're acting as if
you have nothing to lose. You're going against corporates, you're
going against Superfunds, you're going against the Australian government. Why
are you acting like you have nothing to lose? And
(24:27):
that's when I turned around and I thought about it
and I said, actually, I have everything to lose. I
lost my cousin already. I almost lost my mum. I
have my entire family that's under daily bombardment and I'm
just one person. And so when the stakes are so high,
when it's a matter of life and death, then it
(24:47):
would mean the world to me, to my family, and
to every single Ukrainian that's hunted by Russian drones and
Russian missiles that are manufactured with the finances of partially
this export of Russian oil that's refined in third countries
and ends up here in Australia, and Australians are taking
(25:08):
money out of their pocket, their hard earned cash, their
hard earned money that's in super superannuation funds, unknowingly filling
up their tanks, unknowingly investing their money that goes to profit,
the Russian Federation, that goes to profit. Um, these, these
companies that are indirectly supporting a war machine and a
(25:29):
genocidal regime that is doing everything to absolutely wipe Ukraine
off the face of the earth. So it would mean
the world to me if we as Australians would stop
financing those sort of war crimes.
S1 (25:45):
Well, Katerina, thank you so much for sharing your story
with us and your perspective. I imagine many listeners would
be like myself. They would have had no idea that
this oil laundering took place. So thank you. And thank
you so much, David, as well for your time.
S8 (25:59):
Thanks. It's good to talk.
S5 (26:01):
Thank you for the opportunity. And David, thank you for
the time and effort that you've put in to highlight
this issue.
S1 (26:15):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Kai Wang. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions,
(26:37):
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And to stay up to date, sign up to our
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in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger, Morris, thanks for listening.
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