September 23, 2025 • 20 mins
For many people who watched the coverage of Charlie Kirk’s memorial, it was the sounds that struck them the most.
The triumphant 60,000 conservatives who erupted with yelps and claps after messages of forgiveness… and hate.
Today, North America correspondent Michael Koziol, who attended the memorial, on what Donald Trump and members of his administration said in the Arizona arena, and what it might mean for their agenda, going forward. And what life on the ground in the US, after Kirk’s assassination and this highly charged memorial, feels like, right now.
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S1 (00:00):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
September 24th. For many people who watched the coverage of
Charlie Kirk's memorial, it was the sounds that struck them
the most.
S2 (00:21):
Good morning everybody. Thank you for coming out to honor
Charlie Kirk. God bless all of you and all of
you tuning in online around the world.
S1 (00:30):
The triumphant 60,000 plus conservatives who erupted with yelps and
claps after messages of forgiveness and hate today. North America
correspondent Michael Koziol, who attended the memorial on what Donald
Trump and members of his administration said in the Arizona arena,
and what it might mean for their agenda going forward,
(00:52):
and what life on the ground in the US after
Kirk's assassination and this highly charged memorial feels like right now. So, Michael,
you attended the memorial for Charlie Kirk in his hometown
of Arizona on Sunday, American time. So I guess just
(01:12):
to start off, can you take us through what the
feeling was like with that massive crowd that didn't just
feel one venue, but a nearby overflow arena as well?
S3 (01:22):
Look, it was it was massive. It was epic. Um,
it's the sort of event that you would only see
in America. Uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen similar events.
I covered the election campaign and it felt like a
Trump rally, but bigger for America.
S4 (01:39):
For Charlie Kirk. And I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free.
S3 (01:50):
And obviously it was a solemn occasion at times, but
you'd have to say not really that often. For the
most part, it felt like a Maga rally. It felt
like an evangelical sermon. And there was certainly a lot
of evangelical Christian content in there. It you know, it
sort of felt like you were at a Hillsong event
(02:11):
on steroids.
S5 (02:13):
Come on, here we go. Every voice lift him up
and sings. My soul, my savior God to thee.
S3 (02:25):
And then, of course, you know, entwined in that. You
had some of the most well-known people in the United States.
You had the president, you had half his cabinet there.
So it was bigger than Ben-Hur. And it was, uh,
I think, you know, look, it's always hard to say
in ten years time or in 20 years time, what
significance will an event like this have? But you sort
(02:47):
of felt it was something you want to bookmark and say,
you know, let's let's see if this is a major
date on the American calendar when we look back on
this in the future.
S1 (03:00):
Wow. And for you, you know, as we're recording this,
it's the day after the memorial, I really want to
know what moments stuck with you as possibly being game
changers in some way. You know, maybe it was a
surprising reaction that the crowd had to one of the speakers.
Or perhaps it was something a speaker said. I know
that for myself, and I'm sure many listeners, the first
thing that comes to mind is Eric Kirk. Charlie Kirk's widow,
(03:23):
and what she said about forgiving her late husband's alleged killer.
So I don't know if that was the moment for
you that really sticks out.
S3 (03:29):
I think unquestionably, that was the biggest moment of the event. And,
you know, whether whether it was by design or whether
it was just the emotion that overcame her, you could
feel that in the room. You know, Erica Kirk, before
she even got to the microphone, you know, she was
looking to the sky. And it seemed to me saying
a prayer. And then when she got to this point
(03:51):
in her speech, she sort of faltered a little bit
and went quiet. And, you know, she started talking about,
you know, what Jesus is said to have said on
the cross. You know, father, forgive them, for they know
not what they've done. And then she, you know, really
whispered this young man, I forgive him.
S6 (04:09):
On the cross. Our Savior said, father, forgive them, for
they not know what they do. That man. That young man.
I forgive him.
S3 (04:32):
And you could, you know, tell how much she was
kind of overcome in that moment. And obviously, it's very
powerful for his widow to be saying this to the
world on a stage like that. So I think that
was obviously the moment. But look, you know, there were
there were many moments. And we'll probably talk about Stephen
Miller's speech, I'm sure. But that was a kind of
contrasting moment where you sort of thought, whoa, you know, like,
(04:54):
this is something we're going to look back on as
well as potentially pivotal. So there were many.
S1 (05:00):
Well, I really wanted to ask you that because, you know,
like you said about Erika Kirk, I mean, she was
speaking that, you know, love was the answer going forward
and not hate. And it was all about forgiveness. And,
you know, that really, of course, was was the message
she was giving. And then, just like you said, the
white House deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, the speech
that he gave was in stark contrast. Right? I think
(05:22):
his message was a lot darker. So tell us about
what he said.
S3 (05:26):
So Stephen Miller, who is a very, very important figure
in this administration, he is the guy that is sort
of referred to as the architect of Trump's immigration crackdown,
the architect of the Anticrime crackdown that's currently going on.
He's also the Homeland security advisor to Donald Trump. So
he's very much involved in those things. And he's also
(05:48):
been the most vocal person in the administration since Charlie
Kirk's assassination, saying we are coming after these antifa crowd.
We are coming after NGO's, we are coming after left
wing activists who we think are inciting hatred and violence
against conservatives. He's made no apologies for that. And when
he got up on stage at the memorial, he was forthright.
(06:10):
He basically cast this as a battle between good and evil,
between righteous and wrong.
S7 (06:17):
The day that Charlie died, the angels wept. But those
tears had been turned into fire in our hearts. And
that fire burns with a righteous fury that our enemies
cannot comprehend or understand.
S3 (06:38):
And you know, while he sort of directed his remarks at,
you know, those people that are inciting violence, you know,
when he spoke, you felt very much as though he
was speaking a lot more broadly than that. He was
talking about us and them, i.e. us, the people in
this arena, the MAGA crowd, the conservatives, you know, the
Christian evangelicals, all the people that we've got here in
(07:01):
this coalition against the other coalition, the left wing coalition,
the Democrats and everybody else. And, you know, he said
very plainly, you as in our enemies. And he uses
the term enemies. You are nothing. You cannot build anything.
You cannot create anything. We are the ones that build.
We are the ones that create. We are the ones
(07:21):
that lift up humanity.
S7 (07:23):
The light will defeat the dark. We will prevail over
the forces of wickedness and evil. They cannot imagine what
they have awakened. They cannot conceive of the army that
they have arisen in all of us, because we stand
(07:43):
for what is good.
S3 (07:44):
So he was talking in very big, very existential, very
serious terms.
S1 (07:49):
And how did the crowd respond?
S3 (07:51):
Oh, they loved it. They loved it. And I mean, look,
you know, they loved everything that they heard.
S7 (07:57):
God bless you. God bless. Turning point. God bless America.
God bless the Kirk family. God bless our heroes and
God bless the United States of America. Thank you.
S3 (08:09):
And you know, the reaction to Erica Kirk's statement of
forgiveness was very genuine. You know, people just rose to
their feet instantly to applaud.
S1 (08:18):
Yeah, there was mass applause to that.
S3 (08:20):
Yeah, yeah. But, you know, then there are a lot
of people who also loved this message of vengeance that
Stephen Miller was giving. And I should say, also, just
before we move on, that like, you know, look, I mean,
obviously these things sort of sit a little bit in
contrast to each other, but I don't think we should
say that they're diametrically opposed. You know, Erica Kirk, as
a Christian, you know, feels compelled to offer this message
(08:43):
of forgiveness. But, you know, she is the new chief
executive of Turning Point. And you can bet that Turning
Point will be absolutely supporting the administration in whatever it
chooses to do to come after the NGOs, the left
wing activists, the Antifa crowd. So, you know, I think
there's a bit of nuance here. I mean, yes, there
was this message of forgiveness, person to person and Christian to,
(09:05):
you know, whatever. But when you look at the work that,
you know, everyone in this movement is doing, I think
they're all pretty much singing from the same song sheet.
S1 (09:15):
And I guess tell us about what American President Donald
Trump said, because we know that Donald Trump obviously, as well,
spoke very strongly about hating his enemies, essentially.
S3 (09:25):
He did. I mean, look, it's hard to be stronger
than Stephen Miller and Donald Trump, I think. Look, it
was an interesting speech. Trump talked about how, you know,
Charlie Kirk loved to debate his opponents and, you know,
was usually personable towards them. And Trump said, you know,
that was the only thing I disagree with him on.
S8 (09:43):
He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best
for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate
my opponent and I don't want the best for them.
I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can
talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they
can convince me that that's not right. But I can't
(10:04):
stand my opponent.
S3 (10:05):
Now, look, I think he was talking a little bit
tongue in cheek, and he was playing it for laughs,
and he got the laughs, but, you know, there was
a kind of grain of truth underlying it. And I
think that, you know, it's one of those things where
I think the rhetoric might be slightly different, but by
and large, again, you know, Trump, Stephen Miller, JD Vance,
(10:26):
all the senior people in the administration are basically on
the same page that they feel compelled to act and
they feel justified in acting now against their left wing
enemies that, you know, they accuse of inciting hatred, inciting violence. Look,
we know Trump since the day Charlie Kirk was murdered,
before they even had anyone in custody. Today, Trump was saying,
(10:49):
this is left wing radicals. They are to blame.
S8 (10:52):
And the violence comes largely from the left. You don't
hear that from too many people, do you? And virtually
every day for years before he was murdered, Charlie received
these horrible death threats. People don't know. I used to
talk to him about it. He said I got some threats.
S3 (11:11):
And he was saying that it's the left that's the problem,
not the right. He was excusing right wing radicalism, saying that,
you know, they were justified in their concerns about illegal
immigration and crime. So we know exactly where he stands.
S1 (11:24):
And do you think that this memorial service, or perhaps
the darker message of us against them, do you think
this has perhaps brought to the forefront? You know what
Charlie Kirk's messages really were? Because obviously, in the wake
of his horrific assassination, I think it's fair to say
he's been deified in many quarters. But actually, Charlie Kirk
is the person who said that transgender people were mentally ill.
(11:47):
amongst many other discriminatory statements. So do you think that
this us against them mentality that Stephen Miller and Donald
Trump and others invoked? Do you think that perhaps really
does get to the heart and reminds people of what
Kirk's message often was?
S3 (12:00):
Yeah. Look, I mean, Charlie Kirk has been very active
in public life for a long time, uh, since he was,
I think, 18 years old. And he's had a lot
to say. Some of it nice, some of it not
as nice. No doubt many people felt that he was,
you know, horrible offensive. We know people didn't like a
lot of what he had to say. And, you know,
some people would accuse him of hate speech, just as,
(12:22):
you know, his opponents have been accused of hate speech.
I think, especially in his younger days, like like all
of us probably, um, he was more out there and,
you know, as you kind of become more of a
prominent figure, uh, and you get on a bigger stage
and you get more critique, perhaps, you know, you moderate
slightly your views. But obviously he was pretty hardline, and
(12:43):
he didn't really make too many apologies for that. At
the same time, you know, look, I think he was,
from what I've seen, uh, and I haven't watched all
of his contributions, but I think he was pretty committed to,
you know, free and open debate. Very free. You know,
you basically in his book, you can say whatever you like.
The line is drawn at action, not speech. And I
(13:06):
think that's, you know, that's going to be one of
the big debates that we have, uh, in the US
and potentially further around the world in the wake of
this event, because, you know, we know that on the
left there has been this idea promulgated that speech can
be violence or is as bad as violence. And I
(13:26):
think Trump had a very interesting line in his speech
to the memorial on Sunday.
S8 (13:36):
If speech is violence, then some are bound to conclude
that violence is justified to stop speech, and we're not
going to let that be justified.
S3 (13:46):
So I think this is an interesting debate, and it's
one that we're absolutely going to have. I don't know
if it's one that can really be settled, but we're
certainly going to get back into it again as a
result of this.
S1 (14:03):
We'll be right back.
S9 (14:07):
And Michael, I'd just like.
S1 (14:08):
To throw it forward and I guess ponder a bit
how this horrible assassination and this memorial, you know, how
this might impact the future of the Trump administration. And
I wanted to ask you, in particular about the way
Charlie Kirk's memory might be used, I guess, by the
administration or by MAGA supporters, because many people, including American
President Donald Trump, referred to Charlie Kirk as a martyr.
(14:31):
So did Kirk's chief of staff, Mike McCoy. You've written
about this, so tell us about what they said. And
if you think this might foreshadow how Trump and his
supporters might use the memory of Charlie Kirk, perhaps in
a political way.
S3 (14:45):
Well, you know, Trump said it best. He said, you know,
the bullet hit Charlie Kirk, but it was aimed at
all of us. Uh, and so I think you, uh,
have absolutely already seen his assassination being used to justify
interventions to, you know, the pursuit of Antifa, which just
today has been designated as a terrorist organization here in
(15:07):
the US. Now, you know, look, it's a pretty nebulous group. Uh,
so whether it's useful to declare it a terrorist organization,
I'm not sure. But you're already starting to see those
things happen. You're already starting to see these kinds of
interventions against NGOs, against activists, against, you know, some would
say free speech. I mean, look what happened to Jimmy Kimmel.
(15:28):
You know, I mean, that was a direct result. You know,
you joked about or criticized Charlie Kirk. Therefore you are
part of the problem. You're part of the problem that
led to someone wanting to shoot him. And therefore, you've
got to be silenced or you've, you know, you've got
to tone it down. You've got to moderate. So we're
absolutely seeing that already. And who knows what more we
will see in the months ahead.
S1 (15:50):
Well I wanted to ask you about that because just
over the weekend, Trump demanded that his own attorney general,
Pam Bondi, quote, move now to prosecute his adversaries. So
tell us a bit about that and whether you think, yeah,
this just foreshadows even, I don't know, even a stronger
crackdown on his adversaries, whether or not there's any sort
of evidence to support that crackdown.
S3 (16:10):
It was a pretty extraordinary intervention, because if you missed it,
Donald Trump used his truth social platform and he addressed
the message to Pam. Some people thought it was, you know,
meant to be a direct message, and he'd accidentally posted
it publicly. He said, Pam, people, he's saying, I've read
all these posts on the internet saying that, you know,
nothing's happening. We're not bringing charges against Adam Schiff, Democrat
(16:33):
Letitia James, Democrat Attorney General James Comey, former FBI director,
all these enemies of Donald Trump. You know, people are
saying we're not. Nothing's happening. Um, what's going on? And
he issued very clear instructions. He said, you know, we
need to act now. So, I mean, the president is
not supposed to pressure his attorney general to bring criminal
(16:54):
charges against anyone, let alone his political enemies. I mean,
you know, this wasn't explicitly linked to Charlie Kirk in
any way, but I think there's a good case to
say this is an administration that is, in general, feeling emboldened.
It is feeling righteous, uh, and it is feeling that
it is at war in a way that perhaps, you know,
it didn't quite feel before what happened to Charlie Kirk. So, uh,
(17:18):
I think even when you have things that are not
explicitly linked to him and what happened to him, you're
going to see an administration that feels more determined, feels
more righteous, and feels like it's going to take things
up to the next level as a result.
S9 (17:34):
And Michael, just.
S1 (17:35):
To wrap up, I wanted to ask you what the
temperature feels like on the moment in the ground in
the United States You are normally based in Washington, DC.
You're currently in New York City. I know both those
places tend to lean, of course, more democratic. But has
the mood on the street shifted since this assassination or
since this memorial?
S3 (17:53):
Look, it's really hard for me to say. Um, in a,
in a sort of any way that, you know, is,
is comprehensive and fair, but I think it has to. Right?
I mean, this stuff is happening just at such a
fever pitch. And, you know, I remember when Spencer Cox,
the governor of Utah, said in the aftermath of the shooting,
(18:15):
you know, we need to find an off ramp to
this spiraling, escalating vitriol and hatred and violence. There's no
real evidence that that is going to happen. I mean,
you know, this memorial that we all watched was in
some ways a declaration of war. Um, it was an escalation,
(18:37):
not a de-escalation. Mission and so many of the things
that the administration is doing now. You know, whether it's
the Antifa declaration of war or whatever it is. Have
been escalations rather than de-escalation. So and, you know, we
should probably go out and talk to people in different
parts of the country about how they're feeling. But I
think it would be impossible to feel that any sense
(18:59):
of calm right now. And I think, you know, for
people in public life, it's even more pressing because you've
really got to wonder, you know, and you've got to
question whether you should participate in a, you know, public event.
I mean, we've seen Congress people saying, I'm not going
to do outdoor events anymore because it's too hard to
(19:20):
make sure the security is in place. Those are, you know,
genuine questions because this stuff is at such a fever
pitch right now. And, you know, it feels like a
bubbling cauldron. So you're having people doubting whether they can
fully participate in public life.
S1 (19:35):
Well, Michael, we are so lucky to have you there
on the ground in the United States reporting on this.
So thank you so much for your time.
S3 (19:41):
Thank you.
S1 (19:51):
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and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our
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(20:12):
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in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
September 24th. For many people who watched the coverage of
Charlie Kirk's memorial, it was the sounds that struck them
the most.
S2 (00:21):
Good morning everybody. Thank you for coming out to honor
Charlie Kirk. God bless all of you and all of
you tuning in online around the world.
S1 (00:30):
The triumphant 60,000 plus conservatives who erupted with yelps and
claps after messages of forgiveness and hate today. North America
correspondent Michael Koziol, who attended the memorial on what Donald
Trump and members of his administration said in the Arizona arena,
and what it might mean for their agenda going forward,
(00:52):
and what life on the ground in the US after
Kirk's assassination and this highly charged memorial feels like right now. So, Michael,
you attended the memorial for Charlie Kirk in his hometown
of Arizona on Sunday, American time. So I guess just
(01:12):
to start off, can you take us through what the
feeling was like with that massive crowd that didn't just
feel one venue, but a nearby overflow arena as well?
S3 (01:22):
Look, it was it was massive. It was epic. Um,
it's the sort of event that you would only see
in America. Uh, I'm pretty sure I've seen similar events.
I covered the election campaign and it felt like a
Trump rally, but bigger for America.
S4 (01:39):
For Charlie Kirk. And I'm proud to be an American
where at least I know I'm free.
S3 (01:50):
And obviously it was a solemn occasion at times, but
you'd have to say not really that often. For the
most part, it felt like a Maga rally. It felt
like an evangelical sermon. And there was certainly a lot
of evangelical Christian content in there. It you know, it
sort of felt like you were at a Hillsong event
(02:11):
on steroids.
S5 (02:13):
Come on, here we go. Every voice lift him up
and sings. My soul, my savior God to thee.
S3 (02:25):
And then, of course, you know, entwined in that. You
had some of the most well-known people in the United States.
You had the president, you had half his cabinet there.
So it was bigger than Ben-Hur. And it was, uh,
I think, you know, look, it's always hard to say
in ten years time or in 20 years time, what
significance will an event like this have? But you sort
(02:47):
of felt it was something you want to bookmark and say,
you know, let's let's see if this is a major
date on the American calendar when we look back on
this in the future.
S1 (03:00):
Wow. And for you, you know, as we're recording this,
it's the day after the memorial, I really want to
know what moments stuck with you as possibly being game
changers in some way. You know, maybe it was a
surprising reaction that the crowd had to one of the speakers.
Or perhaps it was something a speaker said. I know
that for myself, and I'm sure many listeners, the first
thing that comes to mind is Eric Kirk. Charlie Kirk's widow,
(03:23):
and what she said about forgiving her late husband's alleged killer.
So I don't know if that was the moment for
you that really sticks out.
S3 (03:29):
I think unquestionably, that was the biggest moment of the event. And,
you know, whether whether it was by design or whether
it was just the emotion that overcame her, you could
feel that in the room. You know, Erica Kirk, before
she even got to the microphone, you know, she was
looking to the sky. And it seemed to me saying
a prayer. And then when she got to this point
(03:51):
in her speech, she sort of faltered a little bit
and went quiet. And, you know, she started talking about,
you know, what Jesus is said to have said on
the cross. You know, father, forgive them, for they know
not what they've done. And then she, you know, really
whispered this young man, I forgive him.
S6 (04:09):
On the cross. Our Savior said, father, forgive them, for
they not know what they do. That man. That young man.
I forgive him.
S3 (04:32):
And you could, you know, tell how much she was
kind of overcome in that moment. And obviously, it's very
powerful for his widow to be saying this to the
world on a stage like that. So I think that
was obviously the moment. But look, you know, there were
there were many moments. And we'll probably talk about Stephen
Miller's speech, I'm sure. But that was a kind of
contrasting moment where you sort of thought, whoa, you know, like,
(04:54):
this is something we're going to look back on as
well as potentially pivotal. So there were many.
S1 (05:00):
Well, I really wanted to ask you that because, you know,
like you said about Erika Kirk, I mean, she was
speaking that, you know, love was the answer going forward
and not hate. And it was all about forgiveness. And,
you know, that really, of course, was was the message
she was giving. And then, just like you said, the
white House deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, the speech
that he gave was in stark contrast. Right? I think
(05:22):
his message was a lot darker. So tell us about
what he said.
S3 (05:26):
So Stephen Miller, who is a very, very important figure
in this administration, he is the guy that is sort
of referred to as the architect of Trump's immigration crackdown,
the architect of the Anticrime crackdown that's currently going on.
He's also the Homeland security advisor to Donald Trump. So
he's very much involved in those things. And he's also
(05:48):
been the most vocal person in the administration since Charlie
Kirk's assassination, saying we are coming after these antifa crowd.
We are coming after NGO's, we are coming after left
wing activists who we think are inciting hatred and violence
against conservatives. He's made no apologies for that. And when
he got up on stage at the memorial, he was forthright.
(06:10):
He basically cast this as a battle between good and evil,
between righteous and wrong.
S7 (06:17):
The day that Charlie died, the angels wept. But those
tears had been turned into fire in our hearts. And
that fire burns with a righteous fury that our enemies
cannot comprehend or understand.
S3 (06:38):
And you know, while he sort of directed his remarks at,
you know, those people that are inciting violence, you know,
when he spoke, you felt very much as though he
was speaking a lot more broadly than that. He was
talking about us and them, i.e. us, the people in
this arena, the MAGA crowd, the conservatives, you know, the
Christian evangelicals, all the people that we've got here in
(07:01):
this coalition against the other coalition, the left wing coalition,
the Democrats and everybody else. And, you know, he said
very plainly, you as in our enemies. And he uses
the term enemies. You are nothing. You cannot build anything.
You cannot create anything. We are the ones that build.
We are the ones that create. We are the ones
(07:21):
that lift up humanity.
S7 (07:23):
The light will defeat the dark. We will prevail over
the forces of wickedness and evil. They cannot imagine what
they have awakened. They cannot conceive of the army that
they have arisen in all of us, because we stand
(07:43):
for what is good.
S3 (07:44):
So he was talking in very big, very existential, very
serious terms.
S1 (07:49):
And how did the crowd respond?
S3 (07:51):
Oh, they loved it. They loved it. And I mean, look,
you know, they loved everything that they heard.
S7 (07:57):
God bless you. God bless. Turning point. God bless America.
God bless the Kirk family. God bless our heroes and
God bless the United States of America. Thank you.
S3 (08:09):
And you know, the reaction to Erica Kirk's statement of
forgiveness was very genuine. You know, people just rose to
their feet instantly to applaud.
S1 (08:18):
Yeah, there was mass applause to that.
S3 (08:20):
Yeah, yeah. But, you know, then there are a lot
of people who also loved this message of vengeance that
Stephen Miller was giving. And I should say, also, just
before we move on, that like, you know, look, I mean,
obviously these things sort of sit a little bit in
contrast to each other, but I don't think we should
say that they're diametrically opposed. You know, Erica Kirk, as
a Christian, you know, feels compelled to offer this message
(08:43):
of forgiveness. But, you know, she is the new chief
executive of Turning Point. And you can bet that Turning
Point will be absolutely supporting the administration in whatever it
chooses to do to come after the NGOs, the left
wing activists, the Antifa crowd. So, you know, I think
there's a bit of nuance here. I mean, yes, there
was this message of forgiveness, person to person and Christian to,
(09:05):
you know, whatever. But when you look at the work that,
you know, everyone in this movement is doing, I think
they're all pretty much singing from the same song sheet.
S1 (09:15):
And I guess tell us about what American President Donald
Trump said, because we know that Donald Trump obviously, as well,
spoke very strongly about hating his enemies, essentially.
S3 (09:25):
He did. I mean, look, it's hard to be stronger
than Stephen Miller and Donald Trump, I think. Look, it
was an interesting speech. Trump talked about how, you know,
Charlie Kirk loved to debate his opponents and, you know,
was usually personable towards them. And Trump said, you know,
that was the only thing I disagree with him on.
S8 (09:43):
He did not hate his opponents. He wanted the best
for them. That's where I disagreed with Charlie. I hate
my opponent and I don't want the best for them.
I'm sorry. I am sorry, Erica. But now Erica can
talk to me and the whole group, and maybe they
can convince me that that's not right. But I can't
(10:04):
stand my opponent.
S3 (10:05):
Now, look, I think he was talking a little bit
tongue in cheek, and he was playing it for laughs,
and he got the laughs, but, you know, there was
a kind of grain of truth underlying it. And I
think that, you know, it's one of those things where
I think the rhetoric might be slightly different, but by
and large, again, you know, Trump, Stephen Miller, JD Vance,
(10:26):
all the senior people in the administration are basically on
the same page that they feel compelled to act and
they feel justified in acting now against their left wing
enemies that, you know, they accuse of inciting hatred, inciting violence. Look,
we know Trump since the day Charlie Kirk was murdered,
before they even had anyone in custody. Today, Trump was saying,
(10:49):
this is left wing radicals. They are to blame.
S8 (10:52):
And the violence comes largely from the left. You don't
hear that from too many people, do you? And virtually
every day for years before he was murdered, Charlie received
these horrible death threats. People don't know. I used to
talk to him about it. He said I got some threats.
S3 (11:11):
And he was saying that it's the left that's the problem,
not the right. He was excusing right wing radicalism, saying that,
you know, they were justified in their concerns about illegal
immigration and crime. So we know exactly where he stands.
S1 (11:24):
And do you think that this memorial service, or perhaps
the darker message of us against them, do you think
this has perhaps brought to the forefront? You know what
Charlie Kirk's messages really were? Because obviously, in the wake
of his horrific assassination, I think it's fair to say
he's been deified in many quarters. But actually, Charlie Kirk
is the person who said that transgender people were mentally ill.
(11:47):
amongst many other discriminatory statements. So do you think that
this us against them mentality that Stephen Miller and Donald
Trump and others invoked? Do you think that perhaps really
does get to the heart and reminds people of what
Kirk's message often was?
S3 (12:00):
Yeah. Look, I mean, Charlie Kirk has been very active
in public life for a long time, uh, since he was,
I think, 18 years old. And he's had a lot
to say. Some of it nice, some of it not
as nice. No doubt many people felt that he was,
you know, horrible offensive. We know people didn't like a
lot of what he had to say. And, you know,
some people would accuse him of hate speech, just as,
(12:22):
you know, his opponents have been accused of hate speech.
I think, especially in his younger days, like like all
of us probably, um, he was more out there and,
you know, as you kind of become more of a
prominent figure, uh, and you get on a bigger stage
and you get more critique, perhaps, you know, you moderate
slightly your views. But obviously he was pretty hardline, and
(12:43):
he didn't really make too many apologies for that. At
the same time, you know, look, I think he was,
from what I've seen, uh, and I haven't watched all
of his contributions, but I think he was pretty committed to,
you know, free and open debate. Very free. You know,
you basically in his book, you can say whatever you like.
The line is drawn at action, not speech. And I
(13:06):
think that's, you know, that's going to be one of
the big debates that we have, uh, in the US
and potentially further around the world in the wake of
this event, because, you know, we know that on the
left there has been this idea promulgated that speech can
be violence or is as bad as violence. And I
(13:26):
think Trump had a very interesting line in his speech
to the memorial on Sunday.
S8 (13:36):
If speech is violence, then some are bound to conclude
that violence is justified to stop speech, and we're not
going to let that be justified.
S3 (13:46):
So I think this is an interesting debate, and it's
one that we're absolutely going to have. I don't know
if it's one that can really be settled, but we're
certainly going to get back into it again as a
result of this.
S1 (14:03):
We'll be right back.
S9 (14:07):
And Michael, I'd just like.
S1 (14:08):
To throw it forward and I guess ponder a bit
how this horrible assassination and this memorial, you know, how
this might impact the future of the Trump administration. And
I wanted to ask you, in particular about the way
Charlie Kirk's memory might be used, I guess, by the
administration or by MAGA supporters, because many people, including American
President Donald Trump, referred to Charlie Kirk as a martyr.
(14:31):
So did Kirk's chief of staff, Mike McCoy. You've written
about this, so tell us about what they said. And
if you think this might foreshadow how Trump and his
supporters might use the memory of Charlie Kirk, perhaps in
a political way.
S3 (14:45):
Well, you know, Trump said it best. He said, you know,
the bullet hit Charlie Kirk, but it was aimed at
all of us. Uh, and so I think you, uh,
have absolutely already seen his assassination being used to justify
interventions to, you know, the pursuit of Antifa, which just
today has been designated as a terrorist organization here in
(15:07):
the US. Now, you know, look, it's a pretty nebulous group. Uh,
so whether it's useful to declare it a terrorist organization,
I'm not sure. But you're already starting to see those
things happen. You're already starting to see these kinds of
interventions against NGOs, against activists, against, you know, some would
say free speech. I mean, look what happened to Jimmy Kimmel.
(15:28):
You know, I mean, that was a direct result. You know,
you joked about or criticized Charlie Kirk. Therefore you are
part of the problem. You're part of the problem that
led to someone wanting to shoot him. And therefore, you've
got to be silenced or you've, you know, you've got
to tone it down. You've got to moderate. So we're
absolutely seeing that already. And who knows what more we
will see in the months ahead.
S1 (15:50):
Well I wanted to ask you about that because just
over the weekend, Trump demanded that his own attorney general,
Pam Bondi, quote, move now to prosecute his adversaries. So
tell us a bit about that and whether you think, yeah,
this just foreshadows even, I don't know, even a stronger
crackdown on his adversaries, whether or not there's any sort
of evidence to support that crackdown.
S3 (16:10):
It was a pretty extraordinary intervention, because if you missed it,
Donald Trump used his truth social platform and he addressed
the message to Pam. Some people thought it was, you know,
meant to be a direct message, and he'd accidentally posted
it publicly. He said, Pam, people, he's saying, I've read
all these posts on the internet saying that, you know,
nothing's happening. We're not bringing charges against Adam Schiff, Democrat
(16:33):
Letitia James, Democrat Attorney General James Comey, former FBI director,
all these enemies of Donald Trump. You know, people are
saying we're not. Nothing's happening. Um, what's going on? And
he issued very clear instructions. He said, you know, we
need to act now. So, I mean, the president is
not supposed to pressure his attorney general to bring criminal
(16:54):
charges against anyone, let alone his political enemies. I mean,
you know, this wasn't explicitly linked to Charlie Kirk in
any way, but I think there's a good case to
say this is an administration that is, in general, feeling emboldened.
It is feeling righteous, uh, and it is feeling that
it is at war in a way that perhaps, you know,
it didn't quite feel before what happened to Charlie Kirk. So, uh,
(17:18):
I think even when you have things that are not
explicitly linked to him and what happened to him, you're
going to see an administration that feels more determined, feels
more righteous, and feels like it's going to take things
up to the next level as a result.
S9 (17:34):
And Michael, just.
S1 (17:35):
To wrap up, I wanted to ask you what the
temperature feels like on the moment in the ground in
the United States You are normally based in Washington, DC.
You're currently in New York City. I know both those
places tend to lean, of course, more democratic. But has
the mood on the street shifted since this assassination or
since this memorial?
S3 (17:53):
Look, it's really hard for me to say. Um, in a,
in a sort of any way that, you know, is,
is comprehensive and fair, but I think it has to. Right?
I mean, this stuff is happening just at such a
fever pitch. And, you know, I remember when Spencer Cox,
the governor of Utah, said in the aftermath of the shooting,
(18:15):
you know, we need to find an off ramp to
this spiraling, escalating vitriol and hatred and violence. There's no
real evidence that that is going to happen. I mean,
you know, this memorial that we all watched was in
some ways a declaration of war. Um, it was an escalation,
(18:37):
not a de-escalation. Mission and so many of the things
that the administration is doing now. You know, whether it's
the Antifa declaration of war or whatever it is. Have
been escalations rather than de-escalation. So and, you know, we
should probably go out and talk to people in different
parts of the country about how they're feeling. But I
think it would be impossible to feel that any sense
(18:59):
of calm right now. And I think, you know, for
people in public life, it's even more pressing because you've
really got to wonder, you know, and you've got to
question whether you should participate in a, you know, public event.
I mean, we've seen Congress people saying, I'm not going
to do outdoor events anymore because it's too hard to
(19:20):
make sure the security is in place. Those are, you know,
genuine questions because this stuff is at such a fever
pitch right now. And, you know, it feels like a
bubbling cauldron. So you're having people doubting whether they can
fully participate in public life.
S1 (19:35):
Well, Michael, we are so lucky to have you there
on the ground in the United States reporting on this.
So thank you so much for your time.
S3 (19:41):
Thank you.
S1 (19:51):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions,
(20:12):
so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au.
Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign up to
our Morningedition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's
most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are
in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
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