April 29, 2025 • 22 mins
It’s never happened in Australia. But should we have a federal Minister for Men? Dan Repacholi, a Federal Labor MP, who is currently campaigning for re-relection, says it’s a “no-brainer”. He knows how taboo it is. That to promote the idea risks him being labeled anti-woman. But tragedies and struggles in Repacholi’s electorate - and his own experience - have convinced him of the need to speak out.Today, foreign affairs and national security correspondent, Matthew Knott, on the movement across the globe, pushing for this idea. And whether it could happen in Australia.
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S1 (00:00):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
April 30th. It's never happened in Australia, but should we
have a federal minister for men, Dan Repacholi. A federal
labor MP who is currently campaigning for re-election says it's
(00:24):
a no brainer. He knows how taboo it is that
to promote the idea risks him being labelled anti-woman. But
tragedies and struggles in his electorate and his own experience
have convinced him of the need to speak out. Today,
Foreign Affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Not on the
movement across the globe pushing for this idea and whether
(00:47):
it could happen in Australia. So, Matthew, just to start,
can you briefly begin by telling us about labor MP
Dan Repacholi? Like, who is this guy? And I guess
perhaps if he is an unlikely person to openly advocate
that our federal government establish a minister for men.
S2 (01:07):
Well, Dan Repacholi has been the minister for the Hunter
since the last election, since 2020 22.
S3 (01:17):
Look who's back. Back again. Dan's back. Tell a friend.
The federal election is coming. Would you like mine?
S2 (01:24):
It's a very interesting seat. It's traditionally been one of
the safest labor seats in the country. This is a
coal mining area. Very blue collar, heavy union presence there.
But in recent elections, it's been drifting away from the party.
But Dan Repacholi came in at the last election as
really the ideal candidate for labor there. He was a tradesperson.
(01:50):
He worked as a coal miner himself. He represented Australia
at five Olympics as a sports shooter. So he's got
that athletic track record, which is appealing in a politician,
and he's held onto the seat.
S3 (02:07):
We say fee free TAFE. What do they say? No,
we say pay rises for aged care and childcare workers.
What do they say? No.
S2 (02:16):
He's very well known for in the press gallery in
Canberra is his annual calendar he puts out. That is
him eating a different hamburger from a different fast food
chain in his electorate for every month of the year,
and they're in high demand in December in the press gallery.
So he's he's a labor backbencher. And this area, this
(02:37):
seat has been discussed as one that could be competitive
at this election. So I was very keen to go
up there and spend some time with him and see
what was going on in this seat. He's very passionate
about hamburgers. We did eat one together. I said, if
we're coming to the Hunter, we have to do it.
And he was happy to have a burger. So it
(02:59):
was a very relaxed day spent with him.
S1 (03:04):
Okay, so on trend or perhaps on brand, I should
say for him to be chomping down on a hamburger
with you. But tell me about how this discussion about
having a minister for men actually came about, because I
know you asked him about it. So what made you
actually ask him if he thought it might be a
good idea? And was he happy to then go on
the record with, with his feelings that yeah, he did
think it's a good idea?
S2 (03:24):
Yes. This was unexpected for me. When we were going
to the Hunter, I was more thinking of it in
terms of the environment, energy, coal mining. That's what we
associate with this seat. But he was saying men, the
men he encounters in his social life, but also really
as an MP, the amount of people he meets are
much more reluctant to talk about their health, emotional issues,
(03:48):
also financial issues. He was talking about this, that we're
all talking about cost of living in the election. But
many men who are genuinely doing it very tough will
often be too proud to talk about those struggles. So
it was in the context of that this was coming up.
And I said, oh, well, do you think we should
perhaps look at the idea of having a minister for men?
(04:12):
We have a minister for women. We also have a
role which is very strongly focused on women's health as well.
And just off the top of my head said, would
that be something worth pursuing? And he instinctively said, yes,
I think that would be great. And he started thinking
about ways that this could work. But yeah, he did
(04:33):
pause for a second to wonder whether to go on
the record about it, which I think gets to there's
been a bit of a taboo around this idea that
to be advocating for men. Does that make you sexist?
Does that make you a misogynist? Is it problematic in
some way to say that men have particular issues that
(04:53):
need addressing? Because the Minister for women position that was
created in the Hawke years, you know, that's the idea
that women have particular issues that need a focus. Yeah,
there's there's a bit of a stigma around it and
whether that should be the case. I think when you
look at some of the statistics, some of the issues
(05:15):
that are specific to men, we should probably do away
with that taboo and we can have a conversation about this.
S1 (05:22):
And so, you know, he did say to you, you know,
that there was a risk that he could be branded
as anti-woman if he went ahead and sort of said, actually, yeah,
I do think it's a good idea. But he did
then go ahead to say, no, that's fine. I'm not
going to censor myself. I'm going to I'm going to
tell you all about this. So tell us, I guess,
a bit about why he did want to go ahead
on the record about this, you know, what does he
(05:44):
feel about this more broadly?
S2 (05:46):
Yeah. We've had stories in the past where talking about
things like the men's rights movement, you know, that is
very problematic in many ways. And he doesn't want to
be associated with that, understandably. And what he said was
when he thought about it. And I saw this firsthand
when the with the people he was speaking to while
(06:06):
door knocking, we went up to give a campaign poster
to a Labour supporter in his electorate in Singleton in
the Hunter Valley, and she was shocked. She said, you
look so great, you've lost all this weight. What's happening?
And he said, oh, well, I'm actually on this new
drug called Mounjaro, which is very similar to Ozempic. And
(06:27):
he was very up front talking to her about why
he went on it and how it's changed his life.
And I spoke to him after about it and he said, look,
I've decided to speak openly about this. I'm not going
to pretend that I'm on this amazing diet or that
I'm taking up so much more exercise. He's lost almost
30 kilos on it already and wants to keep going.
(06:50):
And so I think that's part of it, is that
he's decided people need to speak openly about their health.
Men need to speak openly about their health. He's trying
to set an example doing it. And that's why he's
open to this idea of having a minister for men,
a minister for men's health, perhaps a special envoy for
(07:12):
men and boys. You know, there could be different ways
that it could work. We have lots of these different
types of positions now. And he thought it was a
good thing for people to talk about.
S1 (07:22):
And he also opened up, I guess, about, you know,
something quite personal, I would have thought, which is, you know,
his disappointment, I guess, when his diet absolutely spun out
of control at a certain point in his life. So
can you tell us what happened there? Because it does
sound like it was a difficult experience for him.
S2 (07:37):
Yeah. Exactly. That that goes to the emotional issues where
he was talking about that. He's competed at five Olympics
before he wanted to compete again at the Paris Olympics. Now,
this is extremely rare for sitting politicians to compete at
the Olympics. This would have been a big deal for him,
(07:58):
but he really narrowly missed out. Extremely, extremely close. He
could have gone, but he just didn't make it. And
he said that sent him into a bit of a spiral. Uh,
that that he was upset by that. And he started
eating a lot more than usual. He also spoke about
the issues that men have with alcohol and drinking a
(08:19):
huge amount of beer in one sitting. So he was
very upfront about that.
S1 (08:26):
We'll be right back. Matt, I want to turn now to,
I guess, the broader picture of perhaps there being a
ministry for men. We are hearing about it overseas. Right.
I think it's been floated in the UK. So can
you tell me about that? Because it seems to have
dovetailed with this show. That's massive at the moment, adolescence
and this sort of larger discussion that we keep hearing
(08:47):
about the crisis in masculinity that we're sort of seeing
play out. So can you just tell me about this?
S2 (08:53):
Yeah, I think this conversation has been building for a
few years. To start with, there has been a big
conversation in the United States about this. There's a book
by a scholar called Richard Reeves called Of Boys and Men.
And I know that's generated a lot of discussion. He's
looking at the numbers, you know, about boys education, about
(09:15):
men's suicide rates going into the numbers and trying to
say that we essentially have a crisis of masculinity and
we need to address it. In the UK now, we're
seeing a lot of discussion around this right now because
of the Netflix show adolescence, which is going into some
of these dark subcultures around incels who would call them and,
(09:37):
and some of the the dark side of modern masculinity.
S4 (09:42):
80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. You
must trick them because you'll never get them in a
normal way.
S5 (09:49):
Adolescence, Nick. He should be shown in Parliament. It should
be shown in schools. It should be shared more widely.
S2 (09:56):
We saw Anthony Albanese talk about this at a debate.
He's found time to watch this on the campaign trail.
S6 (10:03):
I don't know if you've seen adolescents. I encourage anyone
to have a look at it. It's scary. It's scary.
This is something we need to have conversations about. It's
something that government needs to be determined front and center.
S2 (10:20):
Well, and in the context of that, British Prime Minister
Keir Starmer has been asked should they have a minister
for men there? Now, I think going to the slightly
taboo aspect of this, we're speaking about before he said no,
he's not going to do that right now. He says
there are big issues for boys and men, but it's
more about creating good role models. He doesn't think we're
(10:43):
at the stage yet where you need a special minister.
S7 (10:46):
Are we sleepwalking into a kind of crisis for masculinity here?
How do you feel? Not. Not necessarily as a prime minister,
but as a dad.
S8 (10:52):
I am worried about this. I've got a 16 year
old boy and a 14 year old.
S2 (10:56):
And something I'd stress, though, about what Dan Repacholi was
telling me was that this wouldn't be an adversarial type
of position. This wouldn't be about pitting men against women.
He said that he could imagine the minister working closely with, say,
the Minister for Women's Health. They could do joint events together.
It's not about saying one is more important than the
(11:19):
other or diminishing the particular problems that women face, but
about speaking to both constituencies. And he could imagine them
being being two sides of the same coin, really.
S1 (11:35):
But let's get into what's actually happening. Like who is
speaking to these men, you know, is it the Andrew
Tates of the world? Is it is it what messages
do you think they're getting more broadly that people are
so concerned about?
S2 (11:48):
And this is what needs to be interrupted. It's something
that school teachers will be very familiar with, that some
of the social media content that boys and young men
in particular are consuming can be really worrying people like
Andrew Tate. I know school teachers have come in absolutely
alarmed by how many young boys this is, where they're
(12:11):
getting their ideas about girls and women from. And, you know,
we're supposed to be moving towards a more modern, enlightened,
perhaps progressive age of gender relations. And it seems that
isn't happening because of some of these, some of these
ideas which are about control and domination and a very
(12:31):
disturbing and for a long time have been happening outside
of the view, really, of the mainstream media, of politicians.
It's young people living in their own world without much
and their parents not having much access to that world.
So I think that's a big discussion is about how
you break up that pretty terrible feedback loop and introduce
(12:55):
better role models, you know, people who would have been
Olympians and sports people like Dan, and who can provide
an alternative frame of reference.
S1 (13:06):
And let's just talk a little bit about, I guess,
what are the outcomes at the moment for boys and men?
Let's look to Australia. You know, are they suffering? I
guess in a way that's perhaps under-acknowledged, because I believe
they are right, at least when it comes to school
outcomes and even suicide rates. So can you just tell
me a little bit about this, I guess?
S2 (13:24):
Very much so. It's different. So we know and we
do talk about the important issues that women face. We
talk about the gender pay gap. We talk about the
terrible issues with domestic violence. It's overwhelmingly women that face
that issue. The Herald's been running stories recently about misogyny
in healthcare, the way women aren't always believed. So they're specific.
(13:47):
And I think it is acknowledged that there was there
were particular gender dynamics at play there that need to
be addressed. You can't speak about domestic violence as if
it's happening to everyone in the same way, even though
some men also face issues in that terrain. So similarly
with men, I think that the big one is suicide. Uh,
(14:08):
about three quarters of suicides each year in Australia are men,
and that probably doesn't get discussed that much in terms
of why men are killing themselves at rates so much
higher than women and and why the numbers aren't coming down. Uh,
that's a big one. Uh, educational attainment is really a
(14:30):
turning around that, uh, more women are getting bachelor's degrees now,
significantly more women than men. And that has a downstream
effect throughout the economy. You know, if we're looking at
men more in, uh, skilled manufacturing jobs, that can be, uh,
a bit more, uh, turbulent, you know, less reliable, perhaps
(14:52):
we're seeing that play out very much in Trump's America,
leading into some of the anger that men in particular
feel about the changing economy. They're vulnerable to that.
S1 (15:02):
And you mentioned suicide rates there and the horrific reality
that so many more men in Australia are committing suicide
in comparison to women. And I believe this is something
that Dan Repacholi actually spoke to you about, in particular,
two young men from his own electorate, both under the
age of 20, who recently took their own lives. So
was this something that he is sort of quite impassioned about?
S2 (15:23):
Yeah, he was moved by that. And when we talk
about why was he willing to put his name to
this idea, it was definitely examples like that that have
happened pretty recently in his electorate. And the shocking thing
about that is definitely also the the young ages that
are happening as these young people, young boys really or
extremely young men committing suicide, that's, uh, seems to be
(15:47):
a pretty worrying new trend in this area. You know,
people with so much more life left to live, um,
that that's sparking this whole discussion that we're also talking
about whether social media, whether to have restrictions on who
can use social media, so that that definitely impacted him
and helped make him decide he wanted to talk about this.
S1 (16:10):
I mean, just the alarming stats alone, I guess on
suicide does make you wonder whether, you know, there really
is a strong argument here for there being more of
a focus, I guess, on mental health from the federal government.
But you and I were speaking before recording that, though
it does seem like Dan Repacholi is, as much as
we know, the first federal MP who has really been
(16:30):
advocating for this. We do know that another labor MP,
Susan Templeman, that she forwarded a petition to the government
in October last year that the government introduce a minister
for men. I think this idea actually came from a
member of the public, not from her. But what did
the petition argue at the time, and what do we
know about how the government responded?
S2 (16:50):
Yes, this petition was making some of the points we
have here about those issues around men's health, men's suicide,
men's education. It's been pretty much a rejected by the government.
I asked the Prime Minister I was on the campaign
trail with him when we published this piece, and I
(17:11):
asked him about it, and he was very impressed by
Dan Repacholi. He's he's a big fan of him. He
was very enthused by the issues he was talking about
and getting men talking more about their health like he
was he was right, right onto it. But he definitely
didn't commit to creating this, uh, position. I think he
(17:31):
might be more in the Keir Starmer position, where it's
a bit of a step too far right now. Uh,
but who knows? Down the track, if momentum builds and
more people come on board, including perhaps, uh, female politicians,
if they came on board, it could be something we
would see. Because, look, we have a lot of, uh,
(17:52):
special envoys and ministers representing many different fields, uh, cybersecurity. security. Um.
Veterans affairs. There's there's many positions that are important, but
I would say this is a pretty important one as well.
And it's not about saying that just because men have
issues to address, that women have it easier. I don't
(18:13):
think that's the case at all. And in many ways,
women would be beneficiaries from trying to address male suicide,
for example. That would be a great thing for them.
So I think perhaps, hopefully, we're entering a time where
we can speak about these issues a bit more freely
without putting it in a binary of only one gender
(18:34):
is going to do better or worse. Um, it's pretty
clear that there are different issues that they face, but
that are both important.
S1 (18:44):
And do you think it's still taboo, though? I guess
just to wrap up this idea that, you know, that
that boys and men are, I guess, frequently getting these
messages of toxic masculinity and men are to blame for
all these problems. Do you think it's still taboo, though,
to sort of look at the other side of the
coin and go, this might be really damaging for for
some men to hear.
S2 (19:03):
Um, I think we're only starting to talk about it enough. Uh,
and and that's the thing I think it's it's something
that's going to be have to be a lot more
focused on, uh, in politics, in the media. I don't
think we have the option to be kind of logged
out and be leaving it to young people to figure
(19:23):
out themselves. So I think this is going to be,
to be honest, one of the big issues of our time.
We're coming up at the end of an election campaign
that's been pretty a small target, uh, you know, cost
of living. You know, these things are important. But this
is one of the big swirling, swirling issues of modern life, uh,
(19:44):
is essentially, you know, is do we face a crisis
of masculinity and we're going to see more about it
and we're going to have to take it more seriously.
S1 (19:52):
And I do have to ask you, what is it
like to sort of see this coming to the fore
as a man, you know, because I of course, You know,
I've long been passionate about. Well, I'm passionate about all humans. But,
you know, I've experienced the stuff that women experience, you know,
systemic biases and all that. What's it like as a man,
I guess, to sort of see this come to the
fore as something that might, you know, gain respect and
(20:14):
be less taboo to actually discuss, given that it is
it's controversial, I guess, just because the focus has been
on women for so long and for good reason, to
address all of the imbalances against us.
S2 (20:25):
Yeah, I can feel some of that, of whether there's
some taboo to talk about it. Um, yeah. It to,
to raise it. I was I was worried whether Dan
would want to go there and be willing to talk
about it, but I think it was good that we
had a trusting relationship. Uh, he said that he's had
(20:47):
very good feedback to his idea, which was which was interesting. So, uh, yeah,
I think it's about being more, uh, more open to it. And, uh,
I'm glad we got around to doing it.
S1 (20:57):
Yeah, well, I was thrilled to see the article. I
think it's something that should be explored further and with
greater compassion. I would hope for people on all sides.
So thank you so much Matt for your time.
S2 (21:08):
No worries at all.
S1 (21:15):
Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers and Julia Carcasole.
Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
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(21:37):
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Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
April 30th. It's never happened in Australia, but should we
have a federal minister for men, Dan Repacholi. A federal
labor MP who is currently campaigning for re-election says it's
(00:24):
a no brainer. He knows how taboo it is that
to promote the idea risks him being labelled anti-woman. But
tragedies and struggles in his electorate and his own experience
have convinced him of the need to speak out. Today,
Foreign Affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Not on the
movement across the globe pushing for this idea and whether
(00:47):
it could happen in Australia. So, Matthew, just to start,
can you briefly begin by telling us about labor MP
Dan Repacholi? Like, who is this guy? And I guess
perhaps if he is an unlikely person to openly advocate
that our federal government establish a minister for men.
S2 (01:07):
Well, Dan Repacholi has been the minister for the Hunter
since the last election, since 2020 22.
S3 (01:17):
Look who's back. Back again. Dan's back. Tell a friend.
The federal election is coming. Would you like mine?
S2 (01:24):
It's a very interesting seat. It's traditionally been one of
the safest labor seats in the country. This is a
coal mining area. Very blue collar, heavy union presence there.
But in recent elections, it's been drifting away from the party.
But Dan Repacholi came in at the last election as
really the ideal candidate for labor there. He was a tradesperson.
(01:50):
He worked as a coal miner himself. He represented Australia
at five Olympics as a sports shooter. So he's got
that athletic track record, which is appealing in a politician,
and he's held onto the seat.
S3 (02:07):
We say fee free TAFE. What do they say? No,
we say pay rises for aged care and childcare workers.
What do they say? No.
S2 (02:16):
He's very well known for in the press gallery in
Canberra is his annual calendar he puts out. That is
him eating a different hamburger from a different fast food
chain in his electorate for every month of the year,
and they're in high demand in December in the press gallery.
So he's he's a labor backbencher. And this area, this
(02:37):
seat has been discussed as one that could be competitive
at this election. So I was very keen to go
up there and spend some time with him and see
what was going on in this seat. He's very passionate
about hamburgers. We did eat one together. I said, if
we're coming to the Hunter, we have to do it.
And he was happy to have a burger. So it
(02:59):
was a very relaxed day spent with him.
S1 (03:04):
Okay, so on trend or perhaps on brand, I should
say for him to be chomping down on a hamburger
with you. But tell me about how this discussion about
having a minister for men actually came about, because I
know you asked him about it. So what made you
actually ask him if he thought it might be a
good idea? And was he happy to then go on
the record with, with his feelings that yeah, he did
think it's a good idea?
S2 (03:24):
Yes. This was unexpected for me. When we were going
to the Hunter, I was more thinking of it in
terms of the environment, energy, coal mining. That's what we
associate with this seat. But he was saying men, the
men he encounters in his social life, but also really
as an MP, the amount of people he meets are
much more reluctant to talk about their health, emotional issues,
(03:48):
also financial issues. He was talking about this, that we're
all talking about cost of living in the election. But
many men who are genuinely doing it very tough will
often be too proud to talk about those struggles. So
it was in the context of that this was coming up.
And I said, oh, well, do you think we should
perhaps look at the idea of having a minister for men?
(04:12):
We have a minister for women. We also have a
role which is very strongly focused on women's health as well.
And just off the top of my head said, would
that be something worth pursuing? And he instinctively said, yes,
I think that would be great. And he started thinking
about ways that this could work. But yeah, he did
(04:33):
pause for a second to wonder whether to go on
the record about it, which I think gets to there's
been a bit of a taboo around this idea that
to be advocating for men. Does that make you sexist?
Does that make you a misogynist? Is it problematic in
some way to say that men have particular issues that
(04:53):
need addressing? Because the Minister for women position that was
created in the Hawke years, you know, that's the idea
that women have particular issues that need a focus. Yeah,
there's there's a bit of a stigma around it and
whether that should be the case. I think when you
look at some of the statistics, some of the issues
(05:15):
that are specific to men, we should probably do away
with that taboo and we can have a conversation about this.
S1 (05:22):
And so, you know, he did say to you, you know,
that there was a risk that he could be branded
as anti-woman if he went ahead and sort of said, actually, yeah,
I do think it's a good idea. But he did
then go ahead to say, no, that's fine. I'm not
going to censor myself. I'm going to I'm going to
tell you all about this. So tell us, I guess,
a bit about why he did want to go ahead
on the record about this, you know, what does he
(05:44):
feel about this more broadly?
S2 (05:46):
Yeah. We've had stories in the past where talking about
things like the men's rights movement, you know, that is
very problematic in many ways. And he doesn't want to
be associated with that, understandably. And what he said was
when he thought about it. And I saw this firsthand
when the with the people he was speaking to while
(06:06):
door knocking, we went up to give a campaign poster
to a Labour supporter in his electorate in Singleton in
the Hunter Valley, and she was shocked. She said, you
look so great, you've lost all this weight. What's happening?
And he said, oh, well, I'm actually on this new
drug called Mounjaro, which is very similar to Ozempic. And
(06:27):
he was very up front talking to her about why
he went on it and how it's changed his life.
And I spoke to him after about it and he said, look,
I've decided to speak openly about this. I'm not going
to pretend that I'm on this amazing diet or that
I'm taking up so much more exercise. He's lost almost
30 kilos on it already and wants to keep going.
(06:50):
And so I think that's part of it, is that
he's decided people need to speak openly about their health.
Men need to speak openly about their health. He's trying
to set an example doing it. And that's why he's
open to this idea of having a minister for men,
a minister for men's health, perhaps a special envoy for
(07:12):
men and boys. You know, there could be different ways
that it could work. We have lots of these different
types of positions now. And he thought it was a
good thing for people to talk about.
S1 (07:22):
And he also opened up, I guess, about, you know,
something quite personal, I would have thought, which is, you know,
his disappointment, I guess, when his diet absolutely spun out
of control at a certain point in his life. So
can you tell us what happened there? Because it does
sound like it was a difficult experience for him.
S2 (07:37):
Yeah. Exactly. That that goes to the emotional issues where
he was talking about that. He's competed at five Olympics
before he wanted to compete again at the Paris Olympics. Now,
this is extremely rare for sitting politicians to compete at
the Olympics. This would have been a big deal for him,
(07:58):
but he really narrowly missed out. Extremely, extremely close. He
could have gone, but he just didn't make it. And
he said that sent him into a bit of a spiral. Uh,
that that he was upset by that. And he started
eating a lot more than usual. He also spoke about
the issues that men have with alcohol and drinking a
(08:19):
huge amount of beer in one sitting. So he was
very upfront about that.
S1 (08:26):
We'll be right back. Matt, I want to turn now to,
I guess, the broader picture of perhaps there being a
ministry for men. We are hearing about it overseas. Right.
I think it's been floated in the UK. So can
you tell me about that? Because it seems to have
dovetailed with this show. That's massive at the moment, adolescence
and this sort of larger discussion that we keep hearing
(08:47):
about the crisis in masculinity that we're sort of seeing
play out. So can you just tell me about this?
S2 (08:53):
Yeah, I think this conversation has been building for a
few years. To start with, there has been a big
conversation in the United States about this. There's a book
by a scholar called Richard Reeves called Of Boys and Men.
And I know that's generated a lot of discussion. He's
looking at the numbers, you know, about boys education, about
(09:15):
men's suicide rates going into the numbers and trying to
say that we essentially have a crisis of masculinity and
we need to address it. In the UK now, we're
seeing a lot of discussion around this right now because
of the Netflix show adolescence, which is going into some
of these dark subcultures around incels who would call them and,
(09:37):
and some of the the dark side of modern masculinity.
S4 (09:42):
80% of women are attracted to 20% of men. You
must trick them because you'll never get them in a
normal way.
S5 (09:49):
Adolescence, Nick. He should be shown in Parliament. It should
be shown in schools. It should be shared more widely.
S2 (09:56):
We saw Anthony Albanese talk about this at a debate.
He's found time to watch this on the campaign trail.
S6 (10:03):
I don't know if you've seen adolescents. I encourage anyone
to have a look at it. It's scary. It's scary.
This is something we need to have conversations about. It's
something that government needs to be determined front and center.
S2 (10:20):
Well, and in the context of that, British Prime Minister
Keir Starmer has been asked should they have a minister
for men there? Now, I think going to the slightly
taboo aspect of this, we're speaking about before he said no,
he's not going to do that right now. He says
there are big issues for boys and men, but it's
more about creating good role models. He doesn't think we're
(10:43):
at the stage yet where you need a special minister.
S7 (10:46):
Are we sleepwalking into a kind of crisis for masculinity here?
How do you feel? Not. Not necessarily as a prime minister,
but as a dad.
S8 (10:52):
I am worried about this. I've got a 16 year
old boy and a 14 year old.
S2 (10:56):
And something I'd stress, though, about what Dan Repacholi was
telling me was that this wouldn't be an adversarial type
of position. This wouldn't be about pitting men against women.
He said that he could imagine the minister working closely with, say,
the Minister for Women's Health. They could do joint events together.
It's not about saying one is more important than the
(11:19):
other or diminishing the particular problems that women face, but
about speaking to both constituencies. And he could imagine them
being being two sides of the same coin, really.
S1 (11:35):
But let's get into what's actually happening. Like who is
speaking to these men, you know, is it the Andrew
Tates of the world? Is it is it what messages
do you think they're getting more broadly that people are
so concerned about?
S2 (11:48):
And this is what needs to be interrupted. It's something
that school teachers will be very familiar with, that some
of the social media content that boys and young men
in particular are consuming can be really worrying people like
Andrew Tate. I know school teachers have come in absolutely
alarmed by how many young boys this is, where they're
(12:11):
getting their ideas about girls and women from. And, you know,
we're supposed to be moving towards a more modern, enlightened,
perhaps progressive age of gender relations. And it seems that
isn't happening because of some of these, some of these
ideas which are about control and domination and a very
(12:31):
disturbing and for a long time have been happening outside
of the view, really, of the mainstream media, of politicians.
It's young people living in their own world without much
and their parents not having much access to that world.
So I think that's a big discussion is about how
you break up that pretty terrible feedback loop and introduce
(12:55):
better role models, you know, people who would have been
Olympians and sports people like Dan, and who can provide
an alternative frame of reference.
S1 (13:06):
And let's just talk a little bit about, I guess,
what are the outcomes at the moment for boys and men?
Let's look to Australia. You know, are they suffering? I
guess in a way that's perhaps under-acknowledged, because I believe
they are right, at least when it comes to school
outcomes and even suicide rates. So can you just tell
me a little bit about this, I guess?
S2 (13:24):
Very much so. It's different. So we know and we
do talk about the important issues that women face. We
talk about the gender pay gap. We talk about the
terrible issues with domestic violence. It's overwhelmingly women that face
that issue. The Herald's been running stories recently about misogyny
in healthcare, the way women aren't always believed. So they're specific.
(13:47):
And I think it is acknowledged that there was there
were particular gender dynamics at play there that need to
be addressed. You can't speak about domestic violence as if
it's happening to everyone in the same way, even though
some men also face issues in that terrain. So similarly
with men, I think that the big one is suicide. Uh,
(14:08):
about three quarters of suicides each year in Australia are men,
and that probably doesn't get discussed that much in terms
of why men are killing themselves at rates so much
higher than women and and why the numbers aren't coming down. Uh,
that's a big one. Uh, educational attainment is really a
(14:30):
turning around that, uh, more women are getting bachelor's degrees now,
significantly more women than men. And that has a downstream
effect throughout the economy. You know, if we're looking at
men more in, uh, skilled manufacturing jobs, that can be, uh,
a bit more, uh, turbulent, you know, less reliable, perhaps
(14:52):
we're seeing that play out very much in Trump's America,
leading into some of the anger that men in particular
feel about the changing economy. They're vulnerable to that.
S1 (15:02):
And you mentioned suicide rates there and the horrific reality
that so many more men in Australia are committing suicide
in comparison to women. And I believe this is something
that Dan Repacholi actually spoke to you about, in particular,
two young men from his own electorate, both under the
age of 20, who recently took their own lives. So
was this something that he is sort of quite impassioned about?
S2 (15:23):
Yeah, he was moved by that. And when we talk
about why was he willing to put his name to
this idea, it was definitely examples like that that have
happened pretty recently in his electorate. And the shocking thing
about that is definitely also the the young ages that
are happening as these young people, young boys really or
extremely young men committing suicide, that's, uh, seems to be
(15:47):
a pretty worrying new trend in this area. You know,
people with so much more life left to live, um,
that that's sparking this whole discussion that we're also talking
about whether social media, whether to have restrictions on who
can use social media, so that that definitely impacted him
and helped make him decide he wanted to talk about this.
S1 (16:10):
I mean, just the alarming stats alone, I guess on
suicide does make you wonder whether, you know, there really
is a strong argument here for there being more of
a focus, I guess, on mental health from the federal government.
But you and I were speaking before recording that, though
it does seem like Dan Repacholi is, as much as
we know, the first federal MP who has really been
(16:30):
advocating for this. We do know that another labor MP,
Susan Templeman, that she forwarded a petition to the government
in October last year that the government introduce a minister
for men. I think this idea actually came from a
member of the public, not from her. But what did
the petition argue at the time, and what do we
know about how the government responded?
S2 (16:50):
Yes, this petition was making some of the points we
have here about those issues around men's health, men's suicide,
men's education. It's been pretty much a rejected by the government.
I asked the Prime Minister I was on the campaign
trail with him when we published this piece, and I
(17:11):
asked him about it, and he was very impressed by
Dan Repacholi. He's he's a big fan of him. He
was very enthused by the issues he was talking about
and getting men talking more about their health like he
was he was right, right onto it. But he definitely
didn't commit to creating this, uh, position. I think he
(17:31):
might be more in the Keir Starmer position, where it's
a bit of a step too far right now. Uh,
but who knows? Down the track, if momentum builds and
more people come on board, including perhaps, uh, female politicians,
if they came on board, it could be something we
would see. Because, look, we have a lot of, uh,
(17:52):
special envoys and ministers representing many different fields, uh, cybersecurity. security. Um.
Veterans affairs. There's there's many positions that are important, but
I would say this is a pretty important one as well.
And it's not about saying that just because men have
issues to address, that women have it easier. I don't
(18:13):
think that's the case at all. And in many ways,
women would be beneficiaries from trying to address male suicide,
for example. That would be a great thing for them.
So I think perhaps, hopefully, we're entering a time where
we can speak about these issues a bit more freely
without putting it in a binary of only one gender
(18:34):
is going to do better or worse. Um, it's pretty
clear that there are different issues that they face, but
that are both important.
S1 (18:44):
And do you think it's still taboo, though? I guess
just to wrap up this idea that, you know, that
that boys and men are, I guess, frequently getting these
messages of toxic masculinity and men are to blame for
all these problems. Do you think it's still taboo, though,
to sort of look at the other side of the
coin and go, this might be really damaging for for
some men to hear.
S2 (19:03):
Um, I think we're only starting to talk about it enough. Uh,
and and that's the thing I think it's it's something
that's going to be have to be a lot more
focused on, uh, in politics, in the media. I don't
think we have the option to be kind of logged
out and be leaving it to young people to figure
(19:23):
out themselves. So I think this is going to be,
to be honest, one of the big issues of our time.
We're coming up at the end of an election campaign
that's been pretty a small target, uh, you know, cost
of living. You know, these things are important. But this
is one of the big swirling, swirling issues of modern life, uh,
(19:44):
is essentially, you know, is do we face a crisis
of masculinity and we're going to see more about it
and we're going to have to take it more seriously.
S1 (19:52):
And I do have to ask you, what is it
like to sort of see this coming to the fore
as a man, you know, because I of course, You know,
I've long been passionate about. Well, I'm passionate about all humans. But,
you know, I've experienced the stuff that women experience, you know,
systemic biases and all that. What's it like as a man,
I guess, to sort of see this come to the
fore as something that might, you know, gain respect and
(20:14):
be less taboo to actually discuss, given that it is
it's controversial, I guess, just because the focus has been
on women for so long and for good reason, to
address all of the imbalances against us.
S2 (20:25):
Yeah, I can feel some of that, of whether there's
some taboo to talk about it. Um, yeah. It to,
to raise it. I was I was worried whether Dan
would want to go there and be willing to talk
about it, but I think it was good that we
had a trusting relationship. Uh, he said that he's had
(20:47):
very good feedback to his idea, which was which was interesting. So, uh, yeah,
I think it's about being more, uh, more open to it. And, uh,
I'm glad we got around to doing it.
S1 (20:57):
Yeah, well, I was thrilled to see the article. I
think it's something that should be explored further and with
greater compassion. I would hope for people on all sides.
So thank you so much Matt for your time.
S2 (21:08):
No worries at all.
S1 (21:15):
Today's episode was produced by Josh Towers and Julia Carcasole.
Our executive producer is Tami Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
(21:37):
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date. Sign
up to our Morningedition newsletter to receive a summary of
the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
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