July 8, 2025 • 24 mins
Many will remember a powerful 2013 video of the then Australian army chief David Morrison ripping into soldiers who denigrated women, saying there was no place for them in the military.
But today, after another set of allegations of rape in the ADF have been revealed, we wonder if anything has really changed.
Today, investigative reporter Nick McKenzie - who broke the story for our mastheads and 60 minutes.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Bevan Shields, the editor
of the Herald, filling in for Samantha Sellenger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 9th. Many of you will remember a powerful 2013
video of the then Australian Army chief, David Morrison, ripping
(00:21):
into soldiers who denigrated women, saying there was no place
for them in the military.
S2 (00:27):
On all operations, female soldiers and officers have proven themselves
worthy of the best traditions of the Australian Army. They
are vital to us maintaining our capability now and into
the future. If that does not suit you, then get out.
S1 (00:42):
But today, after another set of allegations of rape in
the ADF have been revealed, we wonder if anything has
really changed. Today, investigative reporter Nick McKenzie, who broke the
story for our mastheads and 60 minutes, joins me. Nick,
welcome back to the Morning Edition.
S3 (01:03):
Great to be here.
S1 (01:04):
Nick. Your latest investigation tells the story of four women
who allege they were subjected to sexual misconduct, to rape
and to assault in the Australian Defence Force. Let's focus
first on former Major Donna manton. Tell us what happened
to her.
S3 (01:18):
Well, Donna is an incredible woman and an incredible service woman,
and that she's given more than 30 years of her
life to the Defence Force. An officer who rose to
the rank of major. She served in Afghanistan and Iraq,
served with Special Forces Command. And yet, a consistent part
of her career has been enduring not just appalling sexual harassment.
(01:42):
As a young officer in training, witnessing men masturbating to
pornography in open in the rec room.
S4 (01:53):
The guys could be quite debaucherous at times. You know,
you'd come home on a Saturday night and there'd be
some guy with his pants down masturbating to porn in
the rec room when you went up to go and
get a drink from the drink machine or.
S3 (02:04):
Sorry, there was guys masturbating in the open in the
rec room. Yeah, and that was considered normal.
S4 (02:10):
Yeah, well, it wasn't something that got reported anyway. Um,
you know, it wasn't. It wasn't like it happened every Saturday.
S3 (02:16):
Having a more senior officer rubbing up against her as
he touched himself. These are almost routine things she experiences
as a younger officer. But as she gets older and
climbs up the ranks having serious cases of sexual assault
in which she is the victim. In 2007, she was
allegedly raped by a fellow army officer.
S4 (02:42):
So we're on a work trip and we are staying
in a hotel, so we're in a room. Um, some
of the international cadets decided to teach us their drinking
games and we joined in. Ended up absolutely Hamad is
one of the guys ended up back in my room
and I know I hadn't interacted with him during the night.
(03:02):
I hadn't been talking to him or socializing with him. Um,
and I was sexually assaulted. Um, and I know when
he left, I just remember getting in the shower and
vomiting and scrubbing. Scrubbing and scrubbing. I was in the
shower for a half an hour.
S3 (03:16):
I reckon that alleged rape alleged to a trial. There's
a hung jury. However, the same man she discovers is
under investigation at the same time for unrelated sexual misconduct
involving somebody else. He's also charged over that. Found guilty,
kicked out of the army. Two points there. Number one here.
(03:37):
She was exposed to a bloke the Army knew was
no good. She wasn't told of that earlier investigation. Perhaps
her alleged rape could have been avoided. And point number two,
he leaves Army booted out, only to reappear within months
as a defence contractor. He's back in the building. He
gets a security clearance. What sort of message is that
(03:58):
sending victims and other women? Jump forward to 2017. Donna
is still with defense. This time, she's sexually assaulted by
a colonel. That's a very, very senior rank. A Special
Forces command colonel at a public event, a military reunion.
S4 (04:17):
We were we were actually at a Duntroon reunion, and
he was very, very drunk. And one minute I was
taking a photo of him with one of the other guys.
The next minute, he was behind me, and he had
his hands on my breasts and was dry humping me
from behind in front of everyone.
S3 (04:36):
This is a full colonel. Full colonel in the Special
Forces Operation command.
S4 (04:41):
Yep.
S3 (04:43):
He grasps her breasts. He dry humps her from behind.
It's terrible graphic detail. Yet it needs to be said
because this is what she endured. There's fresh charges. Another
military justice trial. This time the man's found guilty and
he's booted out of the army. Two terrible incidents a
decade apart, experienced by an officer who I can tell
(05:05):
you is a brave, powerful, articulate and tremendous woman. If
someone like that experiences that sort of conduct, what about
the junior officer in a remote base or the junior soldier?
And we tell those stories we hear from those women
as well.
S1 (05:22):
One of the things that stood out to me in
the episode is that Donna said that in some ways,
she was relieved that people saw what the Colonel allegedly
did to her, that she saw that that that happened
in public. Why was she relieved by that?
S3 (05:36):
Well, the fact of the matter is, and we know
this not just because of the individual experiences of women
that we spoke to, but the Royal Commission has found
that there has been a culture of prioritising the accused,
their welfare, their career above victims, that there's been a
culture of fear and silence. So if a woman speaks
(05:59):
up about what the Royal Commission effectively determined has been
an epidemic of sexual violence, if they speak up, it's
their career that pays the price and the perpetrator quite
often does not face consequences. So Donna says it's a
shocking thing to hear. She's happy she was degraded, assaulted
in public, in front of other officers because she had meant,
(06:21):
in her mind, she had a better chance of proving it.
I mean, what an indictment on the military again, this
is involving an officer with other officers around. What chance
does a young woman have out on that remote base
in far North Queensland or the Northern Territory? Yeah. What
chance does a young soldier a trainee have at Puckapunyal
(06:43):
in Victoria? And the answer is not much.
S1 (06:46):
You also spoke to Jordan Gray, who was on her
first posting as a flying officer at RAAF Tindal in
the Northern Territory in 2019. Talk us through her experience.
S3 (06:59):
The power of Jordan's story, I think, is twofold. Number one,
we can compare it to Donna's experience. Donna's first alleged
rape happens in 2007. The next incident, which is upheld,
happens in 2017. Jordan is a young officer, does her
time at the Australian Defence Force Academy, is posted to
RAAF Base Tindal in 2020. Mid 2020. She's allegedly raped
(07:23):
at a party on base by another person, another military colleague.
S5 (07:30):
Like any young other person and like everyone else was
at the party, I got quite drunk. But there is
a point in the night where I don't remember going forward.
S3 (07:40):
11 p.m. you blacked out?
S5 (07:41):
Yes.
S3 (07:43):
You come to 7 a.m.. What do you see?
S5 (07:46):
I'm in my room, in the living, in accommodation. But
the first thing I notice is that I'm incredibly cold. Um,
and in that moment, I notice that I'm in just
a severe amount of pain. And as I look around
the room, I notice that I'm completely undressed and I'm
naked in my bed. And as I go to roll
(08:08):
over in the bed, that's when I discover that there's
someone in the bed with me. Um, who was also naked?
S6 (08:15):
Who was next to you?
S3 (08:16):
So we're jumping forward in time, yet it's still happening
to female officers. There's a trial. The trial leads to
a verdict of not guilty. The prosecutor tells Jordan at
the time. Listen, it doesn't mean innocent. It simply means
we couldn't convince a jury of guilt. But I think
(08:36):
for me, the real kicker in Jordan's story is internal
defense inquiries were utterly scathing of how she was treated
after the alleged assault was reported to police, and then
after the alleged rapist was charged, let me give you
some examples. These internal inquiries say, how can it be
that no one on base, including the commanding officer, thought
(08:59):
it it wasn't appropriate to move the accused rapist to
a different base? Get this accused man. Sure, he's entitled
to presumption of innocence, but get him away from the
woman who says he raped me. So the internal reports
that deal with the handling of Jordan Grey's case find
that the system set up, or which she had to
(09:20):
endure post making the rape allegation and post her the
accused man being charged actually resulted in his welfare, the
accused man's welfare being protected and prioritized above hers as
the victim. Now, ultimately, this meant she was posted away
(09:42):
from RAAF, RAAF Base Tindal And no consideration was given
to whether the alleged rapist should be posted away. When
she was still on base, she couldn't go to a
social event without an accompanying senior officer by her side.
Her movement was entirely restricted, and yet, despite that, she
(10:03):
was still bumping into her accused rapist on base again,
causing feelings of fear and trauma. Ultimately, the system that
she endured wasn't set up. In a way, these inquiries
find that was victim centric. It was set up in
a way where it was all about the alleged rapist
(10:24):
and making sure that he was okay.
S1 (10:26):
Most members of the public would think that would be
a given. That shouldn't even be in doubt. That shouldn't
be something that's contested or even, you know, their decision
has to be made on that. That's extraordinary.
S3 (10:35):
Absolutely. But both the Air Force internal inquiry, plus the
inspector general of the Australian Defence Force, found that that
it was the welfare of the accused. That was, in
their words, the paramount concern of the Air Force leaders
on that base. The reports are scathing and they're shocking
to read. It goes further, though. The reports say that
(10:58):
the commanding officer of the squadron on base was second
guessing the judgments of the Northern Territory Director of Public Prosecutions,
making up his own mind with bad legal advice from
Air Force about whether the case would lead to charges
he thought it wouldn't. And that affected his decision to
(11:18):
leave the accused man on base. The case did lead
to charges, and, of course, it's the responsibility of the DPP,
not commanding officer in the Air Force, to decide whether
charges should be laid or will be laid or not.
So a plethora of significant failings that really go to
the heart of the way victims are seen treated, handled
(11:41):
by their their more superior colleagues.
S1 (11:43):
Which is an incredibly important aspect of the story that
you have published. Just before we get to those questions,
I just wanted to ask you about the military court system,
which does come up again and again in your reporting here.
We rarely, if ever, find out what happens behind those
closed doors. Such is the level of secrecy. Tell us
(12:04):
what you've learned about that system as part of your
reporting here.
S3 (12:08):
Well, it's not so much what I've learned. We can
define certain things from the case studies of these brave
victim survivors. But the Royal Commission into Defence Suicide, that
concluded in September last year was utterly scathing of the
military justice system. The way the military personnel system handles victims,
(12:29):
the way the entire defence system not just handles victims,
but handles the data that's produced when someone makes a complaint.
Now think about this. This data, if used wisely, could
allow the military aid to identify alleged offenders to understand
where there's risks. Are there more risks in one certain
base above another? Is there patterns of conduct? This sort
(12:49):
of data has not been available. If it is, it's
not being marshalled appropriately. So the military justice system, yes,
it's a closed system. It's secretive. It involves military investigators
and military juries. That's a jury of of officer military
peers that decide a person's guilt or otherwise. But the
filings with that are compounded by other filings, which all
(13:09):
produce a similar broad outcome for victims, which is or
has been an unfair system, an unjust system, a system
that often has prioritized the accused above the accuser and
left women. And there are men who are victims in this,
but mostly women are spat out, burnt out and feeling
(13:30):
like a place they called home. A career they loved
is no longer tenable. How can it be that victims
who are brave enough to raise an allegation are the
ones who pay often the ultimate career price simply for saying, listen,
I was raped, I'm was allegedly assaulted. That shouldn't be
(13:50):
the byproduct of raising such an allegation. Again, the foundation
stone of all this reporting is this royal commission. Just
months ago, its findings are utterly devastating. It says defence
has a systemic sexual violence problem. And unless there are
(14:10):
significant reforms, that problem will continue and people will remain
at risk. I mean, to read that report, finished in
late 2024, to read that in 2025, and to imagine
that young women, middle aged women officers, non-commissioned officers, junior, senior,
some are still at risk today is shocking.
S1 (14:39):
So that Royal Commission report was handed down this year.
You've read the report. My sense, regrettably, from that report
was that it didn't have a huge cut through in
the media, in the public consciousness and potentially and possibly
quite clearly in the ADF. What elements of that report
are most pressing? What needs to be done now to
(15:02):
address reform, to get reform done? That's clearly been identified
in that report.
S3 (15:08):
The report didn't cut through in the media landscape and
possibly the political landscape. It landed with a hell of
a thud, though, in the Defence Force, because its conclusions
are so damning they simply cannot be ignored. Now, I
did interview the most senior woman in the military, Lieutenant
General Fox. She's in charge of personnel, in charge of
(15:29):
overseeing the cases in which women raise complaints. There's no
doubt she is emotionally, viscerally affected by the report's findings.
She's a careerist. She spent over 35 years as a
woman in the military. It's now her job to reform,
to clean up the military. She certainly seems genuine and
(15:51):
utterly up for undertaking that task. But it must also
be said that the Royal commission's findings are simply the
latest in a long line of major inquiries that have
utterly condemned defence and called out sexual violence. We go
back to the Broderick Report a decade plus ago and
report a decade before that, all saying there's a problem here.
(16:14):
Fix it. So if past major inquiries have not led
to the necessary reform, despite being utterly damning, why will
this one be any different? So no wonder victims are sceptical.
And no wonder where's the media have to keep a
very close eye on the way that the reform process
will unfold? What's the Albanese government doing? Today they were
(16:35):
supportive of the royal commission's Many findings, including those findings
in response to how victims of sexual violence should be
can be better treated. A key inquiry recommendation, though, was
for a new standalone inquiry into sexual violence. It might
look like another royal commission. Ideally, victims would be heard,
potentially heard in public. The Albanese government, some ten months
(16:58):
on from that recommendation being made, have not told the
public beyond supporting the general idea of an inquiry. Who's
going to lead it? When's it taking place? Will victims
be heard now? Unless we start to get some real
meat on the bone as to what the Albanese government
is actually going to do, beyond saying recommendations look good. Now,
we know there's a taskforce going behind the scenes, but
unless we get some meat on the bone and as
(17:20):
time ticks past, not only do some people lose faith,
victims have been burnt by a system they don't trust.
But with every passing day, there's another woman in the
defence force who remains at risk. And that's not good enough.
S1 (17:34):
Now, Nick, many listeners will know you led the landmark
reporting on other aspects of the ADF, most famously the
case of Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts-Smith. What's your observation
about what's gone wrong and what is still going wrong
within the ADF leadership? Why has there not been changed?
(17:55):
Why has not changed, not occurred at the pace that
it needs to occur?
S3 (17:59):
Both the war crimes scandal, the Ben Roberts-Smith scandal and
the sexual violence scandal have a couple of things in common.
Number one, they are only revealed because of brave ADF,
be they soldiers, Air force, Navy, people who did the
right thing, who stood up and exposed war crimes, who
saw things they didn't like and became whistleblowers or witnesses.
(18:21):
In the case of women subjected to sexual violence who
had the courage to not just stand up and point
a finger at their attacker, but to keep advocating to
make the system a safer place for other women. So
there are very, very decent, tremendous people. And I've had
the utter privilege of meeting with them and telling their
stories in the Defence Force. What are they up against
(18:42):
these institutions or this big institution? You know, the old
expression about how difficult it is to turn around a
container ship. Defence is slow to change. There is entrenched
misogynistic cultures. The hierarchical structure, while utterly necessary, of course,
for command and control, also produces a byproduct of power imbalance.
(19:05):
And there is an inclination to secrecy, cover up, and
reputation or protection above sometimes all else in that mix.
Achieving the change that is needed becomes extremely difficult. What
is the solution? I mean, there's a whole range of
policy solutions, but it begins with sunlight and accountability. And
(19:27):
by that, unless we know what the problem is, we
can't deal with it. So be it war crimes or
sexual violence. Let's hear about it. Let's talk about it.
Let's give the victims, victims or witnesses a platform to speak.
Accountability means not just letting the light in, but holding
people to account. I've read now, in the last few weeks,
many internal reports detailing shocking, abysmal failings by commanders, by
(19:51):
senior officers who have stuffed up the handling of rape cases.
I mean, they're not accused of rape themselves, but when
victims come forward, have not provided a safe workplace, have
done things that are utterly unacceptable in any workplace, they've
been found to have acted in an unacceptable way. What
happens to them? Nothing. In some cases, they're promoted unless
there is accountability that victims can see, then nothing's going
(20:13):
to change and that accountability goes up the chain of command.
So all well and good to say reform process is
happening post the Royal Commission. All well and good to
say reform is happening post the Brereton war crimes report.
But who's been held to account. And can we see
that accountability taking place in a tangible way which provides
community reassurance and Defence force reassurance that things are changing.
S1 (20:36):
And is our political class pushing the case for reform?
I mean, the ADF may get serious about this if
they are given a kick up the backside by the
government of the day, which rarely, if ever, happens. So
if you were sitting down with the defence minister, Richard Marles, now,
or Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, and you were telling them
(20:56):
about the cases of these four women and what they
reveal about the ADF. What would you say to them
and what would you encourage them to do immediately?
S3 (21:06):
Get cracking. I mean, I think what this government should
be doing yesterday is telling the public and telling the
defence community what reforms they are implementing right now, how
they're implementing them. Let's let's go to one critical area here,
which comes up time and time again. Data cases. Defence
(21:26):
needs to know data and cases involving sexual violence. There
needs to be a public accountability. So let's publish the
figures around incidents when they're happening, where they're happening, how
they're being handled. If we start doing that, not only
is there that sunlight disinfectant, uh, but we can be
(21:47):
assured there is no longer convicted sex felons, people convicted
of sexual offenses in the Army or other services today.
Let me explain what I mean by that. The royal
commission said in September last year. We don't know if
defence has the data about Who with sexual convictions. So
(22:07):
people convicted of sexual offending still is employed in defence today.
We are not sure if defence has that data. Therefore
they don't know if there's rapists within their ranks to
put it like that. So the government needs to be saying,
well go and get the data if you don't have it.
If you do have it, use it. And how is
it being used? Tangible reforms explained publicly. The government needs
yesterday to have said to the public and the defense community. Right.
(22:30):
The standalone inquiry into sexual violence is headed by this
former judge or this former general. These experts, it's going
to be public. It's going to be victim informed. We're
going to hear from victims. And this is where it's
going to be held. And some of the hearings will
be televised. I mean, that's accountability in action. We've heard
none of that. In its defence, the Albanese government and
defence hierarchy say there's a task force. This multi-agency across
(22:52):
government involves policy, legislative change, resourcing implications, etc., etc.. Well,
well and good. But every day that goes past again
is a day that a woman is exposed potentially to
sexual violence in the military. And every day that happens
is a day that shouldn't happen.
S1 (23:13):
Nick, you said earlier that a lot of this reporting
happens because of brave whistleblowers, and I completely agree and
thank them. But it also happens because of courageous, fierce
journalists like yourself. So thank you for your work on this.
And thank you for joining us today.
S3 (23:27):
Thanks for having.
S6 (23:28):
Me.
S1 (23:37):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh
towers with technical assistance from Kai Wong. Our executive producer
is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so
(23:59):
to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. And
to stay up to date, sign up for our Morning
Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most
important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Bevan Shields, this is Morning edition.
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Bevan Shields, the editor
of the Herald, filling in for Samantha Sellenger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 9th. Many of you will remember a powerful 2013
video of the then Australian Army chief, David Morrison, ripping
(00:21):
into soldiers who denigrated women, saying there was no place
for them in the military.
S2 (00:27):
On all operations, female soldiers and officers have proven themselves
worthy of the best traditions of the Australian Army. They
are vital to us maintaining our capability now and into
the future. If that does not suit you, then get out.
S1 (00:42):
But today, after another set of allegations of rape in
the ADF have been revealed, we wonder if anything has
really changed. Today, investigative reporter Nick McKenzie, who broke the
story for our mastheads and 60 minutes, joins me. Nick,
welcome back to the Morning Edition.
S3 (01:03):
Great to be here.
S1 (01:04):
Nick. Your latest investigation tells the story of four women
who allege they were subjected to sexual misconduct, to rape
and to assault in the Australian Defence Force. Let's focus
first on former Major Donna manton. Tell us what happened
to her.
S3 (01:18):
Well, Donna is an incredible woman and an incredible service woman,
and that she's given more than 30 years of her
life to the Defence Force. An officer who rose to
the rank of major. She served in Afghanistan and Iraq,
served with Special Forces Command. And yet, a consistent part
of her career has been enduring not just appalling sexual harassment.
(01:42):
As a young officer in training, witnessing men masturbating to
pornography in open in the rec room.
S4 (01:53):
The guys could be quite debaucherous at times. You know,
you'd come home on a Saturday night and there'd be
some guy with his pants down masturbating to porn in
the rec room when you went up to go and
get a drink from the drink machine or.
S3 (02:04):
Sorry, there was guys masturbating in the open in the
rec room. Yeah, and that was considered normal.
S4 (02:10):
Yeah, well, it wasn't something that got reported anyway. Um,
you know, it wasn't. It wasn't like it happened every Saturday.
S3 (02:16):
Having a more senior officer rubbing up against her as
he touched himself. These are almost routine things she experiences
as a younger officer. But as she gets older and
climbs up the ranks having serious cases of sexual assault
in which she is the victim. In 2007, she was
allegedly raped by a fellow army officer.
S4 (02:42):
So we're on a work trip and we are staying
in a hotel, so we're in a room. Um, some
of the international cadets decided to teach us their drinking
games and we joined in. Ended up absolutely Hamad is
one of the guys ended up back in my room
and I know I hadn't interacted with him during the night.
(03:02):
I hadn't been talking to him or socializing with him. Um,
and I was sexually assaulted. Um, and I know when
he left, I just remember getting in the shower and
vomiting and scrubbing. Scrubbing and scrubbing. I was in the
shower for a half an hour.
S3 (03:16):
I reckon that alleged rape alleged to a trial. There's
a hung jury. However, the same man she discovers is
under investigation at the same time for unrelated sexual misconduct
involving somebody else. He's also charged over that. Found guilty,
kicked out of the army. Two points there. Number one here.
(03:37):
She was exposed to a bloke the Army knew was
no good. She wasn't told of that earlier investigation. Perhaps
her alleged rape could have been avoided. And point number two,
he leaves Army booted out, only to reappear within months
as a defence contractor. He's back in the building. He
gets a security clearance. What sort of message is that
(03:58):
sending victims and other women? Jump forward to 2017. Donna
is still with defense. This time, she's sexually assaulted by
a colonel. That's a very, very senior rank. A Special
Forces command colonel at a public event, a military reunion.
S4 (04:17):
We were we were actually at a Duntroon reunion, and
he was very, very drunk. And one minute I was
taking a photo of him with one of the other guys.
The next minute, he was behind me, and he had
his hands on my breasts and was dry humping me
from behind in front of everyone.
S3 (04:36):
This is a full colonel. Full colonel in the Special
Forces Operation command.
S4 (04:41):
Yep.
S3 (04:43):
He grasps her breasts. He dry humps her from behind.
It's terrible graphic detail. Yet it needs to be said
because this is what she endured. There's fresh charges. Another
military justice trial. This time the man's found guilty and
he's booted out of the army. Two terrible incidents a
decade apart, experienced by an officer who I can tell
(05:05):
you is a brave, powerful, articulate and tremendous woman. If
someone like that experiences that sort of conduct, what about
the junior officer in a remote base or the junior soldier?
And we tell those stories we hear from those women
as well.
S1 (05:22):
One of the things that stood out to me in
the episode is that Donna said that in some ways,
she was relieved that people saw what the Colonel allegedly
did to her, that she saw that that that happened
in public. Why was she relieved by that?
S3 (05:36):
Well, the fact of the matter is, and we know
this not just because of the individual experiences of women
that we spoke to, but the Royal Commission has found
that there has been a culture of prioritising the accused,
their welfare, their career above victims, that there's been a
culture of fear and silence. So if a woman speaks
(05:59):
up about what the Royal Commission effectively determined has been
an epidemic of sexual violence, if they speak up, it's
their career that pays the price and the perpetrator quite
often does not face consequences. So Donna says it's a
shocking thing to hear. She's happy she was degraded, assaulted
in public, in front of other officers because she had meant,
(06:21):
in her mind, she had a better chance of proving it.
I mean, what an indictment on the military again, this
is involving an officer with other officers around. What chance
does a young woman have out on that remote base
in far North Queensland or the Northern Territory? Yeah. What
chance does a young soldier a trainee have at Puckapunyal
(06:43):
in Victoria? And the answer is not much.
S1 (06:46):
You also spoke to Jordan Gray, who was on her
first posting as a flying officer at RAAF Tindal in
the Northern Territory in 2019. Talk us through her experience.
S3 (06:59):
The power of Jordan's story, I think, is twofold. Number one,
we can compare it to Donna's experience. Donna's first alleged
rape happens in 2007. The next incident, which is upheld,
happens in 2017. Jordan is a young officer, does her
time at the Australian Defence Force Academy, is posted to
RAAF Base Tindal in 2020. Mid 2020. She's allegedly raped
(07:23):
at a party on base by another person, another military colleague.
S5 (07:30):
Like any young other person and like everyone else was
at the party, I got quite drunk. But there is
a point in the night where I don't remember going forward.
S3 (07:40):
11 p.m. you blacked out?
S5 (07:41):
Yes.
S3 (07:43):
You come to 7 a.m.. What do you see?
S5 (07:46):
I'm in my room, in the living, in accommodation. But
the first thing I notice is that I'm incredibly cold. Um,
and in that moment, I notice that I'm in just
a severe amount of pain. And as I look around
the room, I notice that I'm completely undressed and I'm
naked in my bed. And as I go to roll
(08:08):
over in the bed, that's when I discover that there's
someone in the bed with me. Um, who was also naked?
S6 (08:15):
Who was next to you?
S3 (08:16):
So we're jumping forward in time, yet it's still happening
to female officers. There's a trial. The trial leads to
a verdict of not guilty. The prosecutor tells Jordan at
the time. Listen, it doesn't mean innocent. It simply means
we couldn't convince a jury of guilt. But I think
(08:36):
for me, the real kicker in Jordan's story is internal
defense inquiries were utterly scathing of how she was treated
after the alleged assault was reported to police, and then
after the alleged rapist was charged, let me give you
some examples. These internal inquiries say, how can it be
that no one on base, including the commanding officer, thought
(08:59):
it it wasn't appropriate to move the accused rapist to
a different base? Get this accused man. Sure, he's entitled
to presumption of innocence, but get him away from the
woman who says he raped me. So the internal reports
that deal with the handling of Jordan Grey's case find
that the system set up, or which she had to
(09:20):
endure post making the rape allegation and post her the
accused man being charged actually resulted in his welfare, the
accused man's welfare being protected and prioritized above hers as
the victim. Now, ultimately, this meant she was posted away
(09:42):
from RAAF, RAAF Base Tindal And no consideration was given
to whether the alleged rapist should be posted away. When
she was still on base, she couldn't go to a
social event without an accompanying senior officer by her side.
Her movement was entirely restricted, and yet, despite that, she
(10:03):
was still bumping into her accused rapist on base again,
causing feelings of fear and trauma. Ultimately, the system that
she endured wasn't set up. In a way, these inquiries
find that was victim centric. It was set up in
a way where it was all about the alleged rapist
(10:24):
and making sure that he was okay.
S1 (10:26):
Most members of the public would think that would be
a given. That shouldn't even be in doubt. That shouldn't
be something that's contested or even, you know, their decision
has to be made on that. That's extraordinary.
S3 (10:35):
Absolutely. But both the Air Force internal inquiry, plus the
inspector general of the Australian Defence Force, found that that
it was the welfare of the accused. That was, in
their words, the paramount concern of the Air Force leaders
on that base. The reports are scathing and they're shocking
to read. It goes further, though. The reports say that
(10:58):
the commanding officer of the squadron on base was second
guessing the judgments of the Northern Territory Director of Public Prosecutions,
making up his own mind with bad legal advice from
Air Force about whether the case would lead to charges
he thought it wouldn't. And that affected his decision to
(11:18):
leave the accused man on base. The case did lead
to charges, and, of course, it's the responsibility of the DPP,
not commanding officer in the Air Force, to decide whether
charges should be laid or will be laid or not.
So a plethora of significant failings that really go to
the heart of the way victims are seen treated, handled
(11:41):
by their their more superior colleagues.
S1 (11:43):
Which is an incredibly important aspect of the story that
you have published. Just before we get to those questions,
I just wanted to ask you about the military court system,
which does come up again and again in your reporting here.
We rarely, if ever, find out what happens behind those
closed doors. Such is the level of secrecy. Tell us
(12:04):
what you've learned about that system as part of your
reporting here.
S3 (12:08):
Well, it's not so much what I've learned. We can
define certain things from the case studies of these brave
victim survivors. But the Royal Commission into Defence Suicide, that
concluded in September last year was utterly scathing of the
military justice system. The way the military personnel system handles victims,
(12:29):
the way the entire defence system not just handles victims,
but handles the data that's produced when someone makes a complaint.
Now think about this. This data, if used wisely, could
allow the military aid to identify alleged offenders to understand
where there's risks. Are there more risks in one certain
base above another? Is there patterns of conduct? This sort
(12:49):
of data has not been available. If it is, it's
not being marshalled appropriately. So the military justice system, yes,
it's a closed system. It's secretive. It involves military investigators
and military juries. That's a jury of of officer military
peers that decide a person's guilt or otherwise. But the
filings with that are compounded by other filings, which all
(13:09):
produce a similar broad outcome for victims, which is or
has been an unfair system, an unjust system, a system
that often has prioritized the accused above the accuser and
left women. And there are men who are victims in this,
but mostly women are spat out, burnt out and feeling
(13:30):
like a place they called home. A career they loved
is no longer tenable. How can it be that victims
who are brave enough to raise an allegation are the
ones who pay often the ultimate career price simply for saying, listen,
I was raped, I'm was allegedly assaulted. That shouldn't be
(13:50):
the byproduct of raising such an allegation. Again, the foundation
stone of all this reporting is this royal commission. Just
months ago, its findings are utterly devastating. It says defence
has a systemic sexual violence problem. And unless there are
(14:10):
significant reforms, that problem will continue and people will remain
at risk. I mean, to read that report, finished in
late 2024, to read that in 2025, and to imagine
that young women, middle aged women officers, non-commissioned officers, junior, senior,
some are still at risk today is shocking.
S1 (14:39):
So that Royal Commission report was handed down this year.
You've read the report. My sense, regrettably, from that report
was that it didn't have a huge cut through in
the media, in the public consciousness and potentially and possibly
quite clearly in the ADF. What elements of that report
are most pressing? What needs to be done now to
(15:02):
address reform, to get reform done? That's clearly been identified
in that report.
S3 (15:08):
The report didn't cut through in the media landscape and
possibly the political landscape. It landed with a hell of
a thud, though, in the Defence Force, because its conclusions
are so damning they simply cannot be ignored. Now, I
did interview the most senior woman in the military, Lieutenant
General Fox. She's in charge of personnel, in charge of
(15:29):
overseeing the cases in which women raise complaints. There's no
doubt she is emotionally, viscerally affected by the report's findings.
She's a careerist. She spent over 35 years as a
woman in the military. It's now her job to reform,
to clean up the military. She certainly seems genuine and
(15:51):
utterly up for undertaking that task. But it must also
be said that the Royal commission's findings are simply the
latest in a long line of major inquiries that have
utterly condemned defence and called out sexual violence. We go
back to the Broderick Report a decade plus ago and
report a decade before that, all saying there's a problem here.
(16:14):
Fix it. So if past major inquiries have not led
to the necessary reform, despite being utterly damning, why will
this one be any different? So no wonder victims are sceptical.
And no wonder where's the media have to keep a
very close eye on the way that the reform process
will unfold? What's the Albanese government doing? Today they were
(16:35):
supportive of the royal commission's Many findings, including those findings
in response to how victims of sexual violence should be
can be better treated. A key inquiry recommendation, though, was
for a new standalone inquiry into sexual violence. It might
look like another royal commission. Ideally, victims would be heard,
potentially heard in public. The Albanese government, some ten months
(16:58):
on from that recommendation being made, have not told the
public beyond supporting the general idea of an inquiry. Who's
going to lead it? When's it taking place? Will victims
be heard now? Unless we start to get some real
meat on the bone as to what the Albanese government
is actually going to do, beyond saying recommendations look good. Now,
we know there's a taskforce going behind the scenes, but
unless we get some meat on the bone and as
(17:20):
time ticks past, not only do some people lose faith,
victims have been burnt by a system they don't trust.
But with every passing day, there's another woman in the
defence force who remains at risk. And that's not good enough.
S1 (17:34):
Now, Nick, many listeners will know you led the landmark
reporting on other aspects of the ADF, most famously the
case of Victoria Cross recipient Ben Roberts-Smith. What's your observation
about what's gone wrong and what is still going wrong
within the ADF leadership? Why has there not been changed?
(17:55):
Why has not changed, not occurred at the pace that
it needs to occur?
S3 (17:59):
Both the war crimes scandal, the Ben Roberts-Smith scandal and
the sexual violence scandal have a couple of things in common.
Number one, they are only revealed because of brave ADF,
be they soldiers, Air force, Navy, people who did the
right thing, who stood up and exposed war crimes, who
saw things they didn't like and became whistleblowers or witnesses.
(18:21):
In the case of women subjected to sexual violence who
had the courage to not just stand up and point
a finger at their attacker, but to keep advocating to
make the system a safer place for other women. So
there are very, very decent, tremendous people. And I've had
the utter privilege of meeting with them and telling their
stories in the Defence Force. What are they up against
(18:42):
these institutions or this big institution? You know, the old
expression about how difficult it is to turn around a
container ship. Defence is slow to change. There is entrenched
misogynistic cultures. The hierarchical structure, while utterly necessary, of course,
for command and control, also produces a byproduct of power imbalance.
(19:05):
And there is an inclination to secrecy, cover up, and
reputation or protection above sometimes all else in that mix.
Achieving the change that is needed becomes extremely difficult. What
is the solution? I mean, there's a whole range of
policy solutions, but it begins with sunlight and accountability. And
(19:27):
by that, unless we know what the problem is, we
can't deal with it. So be it war crimes or
sexual violence. Let's hear about it. Let's talk about it.
Let's give the victims, victims or witnesses a platform to speak.
Accountability means not just letting the light in, but holding
people to account. I've read now, in the last few weeks,
many internal reports detailing shocking, abysmal failings by commanders, by
(19:51):
senior officers who have stuffed up the handling of rape cases.
I mean, they're not accused of rape themselves, but when
victims come forward, have not provided a safe workplace, have
done things that are utterly unacceptable in any workplace, they've
been found to have acted in an unacceptable way. What
happens to them? Nothing. In some cases, they're promoted unless
there is accountability that victims can see, then nothing's going
(20:13):
to change and that accountability goes up the chain of command.
So all well and good to say reform process is
happening post the Royal Commission. All well and good to
say reform is happening post the Brereton war crimes report.
But who's been held to account. And can we see
that accountability taking place in a tangible way which provides
community reassurance and Defence force reassurance that things are changing.
S1 (20:36):
And is our political class pushing the case for reform?
I mean, the ADF may get serious about this if
they are given a kick up the backside by the
government of the day, which rarely, if ever, happens. So
if you were sitting down with the defence minister, Richard Marles, now,
or Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, and you were telling them
(20:56):
about the cases of these four women and what they
reveal about the ADF. What would you say to them
and what would you encourage them to do immediately?
S3 (21:06):
Get cracking. I mean, I think what this government should
be doing yesterday is telling the public and telling the
defence community what reforms they are implementing right now, how
they're implementing them. Let's let's go to one critical area here,
which comes up time and time again. Data cases. Defence
(21:26):
needs to know data and cases involving sexual violence. There
needs to be a public accountability. So let's publish the
figures around incidents when they're happening, where they're happening, how
they're being handled. If we start doing that, not only
is there that sunlight disinfectant, uh, but we can be
(21:47):
assured there is no longer convicted sex felons, people convicted
of sexual offenses in the Army or other services today.
Let me explain what I mean by that. The royal
commission said in September last year. We don't know if
defence has the data about Who with sexual convictions. So
(22:07):
people convicted of sexual offending still is employed in defence today.
We are not sure if defence has that data. Therefore
they don't know if there's rapists within their ranks to
put it like that. So the government needs to be saying,
well go and get the data if you don't have it.
If you do have it, use it. And how is
it being used? Tangible reforms explained publicly. The government needs
yesterday to have said to the public and the defense community. Right.
(22:30):
The standalone inquiry into sexual violence is headed by this
former judge or this former general. These experts, it's going
to be public. It's going to be victim informed. We're
going to hear from victims. And this is where it's
going to be held. And some of the hearings will
be televised. I mean, that's accountability in action. We've heard
none of that. In its defence, the Albanese government and
defence hierarchy say there's a task force. This multi-agency across
(22:52):
government involves policy, legislative change, resourcing implications, etc., etc.. Well,
well and good. But every day that goes past again
is a day that a woman is exposed potentially to
sexual violence in the military. And every day that happens
is a day that shouldn't happen.
S1 (23:13):
Nick, you said earlier that a lot of this reporting
happens because of brave whistleblowers, and I completely agree and
thank them. But it also happens because of courageous, fierce
journalists like yourself. So thank you for your work on this.
And thank you for joining us today.
S3 (23:27):
Thanks for having.
S6 (23:28):
Me.
S1 (23:37):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Josh
towers with technical assistance from Kai Wong. Our executive producer
is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so
(23:59):
to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. And
to stay up to date, sign up for our Morning
Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most
important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Bevan Shields, this is Morning edition.
Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com