September 15, 2025 • 28 mins
Jacinta Nampijinpa Price’s charisma has led to her meteoric rise, and also, to her recent relegation to the back bench.
Lambasted for her position on various issues including the Stolen Generation, the Black Lives Matter movement, and more recently, immigration, the Indigenous senator is celebrated by some of the most powerful conservatives in the country, and has become the most followed Coalition MP on social media.
Today, investigative reporter Patrick Begley and federal political reporter Natassia Chrysanthos track plain-speaking Price’s journey from children’s entertainer to political celebrity.
You can read their story here: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/she-s-making-big-trouble-why-jacinta-price-is-losing-favour-in-her-family-s-hometown-20250912-p5muia.html
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
September 16th. Jacinta Nampijinpa Price's plain speaking charisma has led
to her meteoric rise, and also to her recent relegation
to the backbench, lambasted for her position on various issues
(00:25):
including the Stolen Generation, the Black Lives Matter movement and,
more recently, immigration. The indigenous senator is celebrated by some
of the most powerful conservatives in the country, and has
become the most followed coalition MP on social media today.
Investigative reporter Patrick Begley and federal political reporter Natassia Chrysanthos.
(00:47):
On whether Jacinta Nampijinpa price has risen up the ranks
too quickly, or if she's just getting started. So Patrick
and Natasha. Jacinta Nampijinpa price has, of course, dominated the
front page in the last week because, you know, she
was booted off the frontbench. We're going to get into that.
(01:07):
But before that, it's worth noting that you started work
on these two massive features that you co-wrote about this
divisive senator more than a month before this bombshell event
in her career. So I really want to know why,
you know, why did you decide back then that really,
this is someone who's worthy of, like 7000 words? Was
there something about her that you thought maybe readers or
(01:28):
listeners had missed, or just kind of slipped between the
cracks of other coverage? Like what was it?
S2 (01:34):
The piece was first commissioned just after the election, where
we didn't see Senator Price play a huge role, but
where she did kind of come into the public space.
It was it was notable. And that's a reference to
the Make Australia Great Again gaffe.
S3 (01:50):
That we can make Australia great again, that we can
bring Australia back to its former glory, that we can
get Australia.
S2 (01:57):
As it is now known, that was widely thought to
have hurt the coalition. And then immediately post-election, we saw
her defect from the nationals to the liberals to run
for the Liberal Party deputy leadership. She had the backing
behind the scenes of people like Tony Abbott and Peta Credlin,
who are still very influential in the Liberal Party. And
while that leadership ballot. Angus Taylor as leader lost to
(02:19):
Sussan Ley by about three votes, it was kind of
this real pivotal moment where we, I think realised as
a newsroom all of a sudden we could have, you know,
this woman, just enterprise as a deputy Liberal leader. And
we hadn't written that much about her in terms of
her political career to date. She very much kind of
(02:40):
became a national name through the voice referendum. And while
her pre-parliamentary career. She'd written a lot, for example, for
News Corp publications and been interviewed a lot there, I
think our readers probably weren't as familiar with who she
was before Parliament and where she came from. So I
think at that point, whether she had won the Liberal
deputy leadership or not, it was obvious that she was
going to be a kind of staying force in Australian politics,
(03:02):
and it was probably a bit time to dive into
that a bit more deeply.
S4 (03:06):
And I think also her name recognition is kind of
disproportionate to like, you know, how long she's been around.
I mean, she is according to resolve polls, she's one
of the most well liked politicians in Australia, has huge
name recognition through the voice. And she's also someone that
(03:27):
puts out a lot about their own personal story. So
this year, she released her memoir, matters of the heart.
She did an Australian Story profile with the ABC.
S3 (03:37):
I'm incredibly passionate and committed to Australia. It's my home
and my place of belonging.
S4 (03:44):
And I think the other reason that we wanted to
look into her more is that she really does marry
personal experiences with her political views, and draws very explicit
links between what has happened to her in her past
and to her family, and what she thinks now about
key issues.
S1 (04:00):
Okay, well, let's get into it. So, Taz, I'm going
to turn to you because just briefly, can you remind
listeners of the series of events that led to her
demotion from the frontbench by Liberal Leader Susan Lee just
last week?
S2 (04:12):
Just last week? Well, I guess it started the week
before she made an appearance on the ABCs Afternoon Briefing program.
It was a few days after there had been several
anti-immigration rallies across the country. She was asked then by
the host, Patricia Karvelas, you know, do you think people
marching are concerned about the core number of immigrants coming
in or the type of migrant? And price said of
(04:34):
absolutely the core number. But there's also a concern about
basically labor bringing in specific groups of migrants because they
vote Labour.
S3 (04:44):
Are they going to see a reflection that, okay, these
individuals are going to vote for us more, more so
than other parts of the community? Well, then, of course
they're going to express a view that we'll get those
sorts of individuals into our communities.
S2 (04:58):
And I think this is this gets to another interesting
point about Price's approach to media. She hasn't done a
lot of interviews on the ABC. She's much more comfortable
on Sky. An afternoon ABC interview is going to interrogate
that claim. And that's what happened. And she was asked
about four follow up questions about it. Of course, it
was not a factual claim, so there was not evidence.
(05:20):
And then she got into the position where, after four questions,
she names the Indian community as an example.
S3 (05:25):
There is a concern with the Indian community, and only
because there's been large numbers, and we can see that
reflected in the way that the community votes.
S2 (05:32):
And that sets off a chain of events because it
upsets Indian Australians. They are a very important constituency in
Australian politics in general, but also for the coalition. Over
the next week, you've got all her colleagues wanting to
her to apologise. Price being extremely defiant, not wanting to
back down and to the point where, about eight days
(05:54):
later she wouldn't give confidence explicitly in her later Susan Lee.
And so Susan Lee said she had no choice but
to sack her at that point.
S5 (06:03):
Confidence in the leader is a requirement for serving in
the shadow ministry.
S2 (06:09):
So now she's on the backbench, which, as we know,
is where all the most vocal politicians are now. It'll
be interesting. Yeah, exactly.
S1 (06:17):
Absolutely. Now, Patrick, I want to turn to you because
I think it's fair to say that Jacinta and Julia
Price has had a very particular way of viewing indigenous
issues and migrants long before these views sort of came
to a boil last week. And we're going to get
into the divisions that this is sort of raising, I guess,
in the coalition soon. But can you just tell us
(06:38):
a bit about Price's upbringing, her political career and how
that sort of shaped her views today?
S4 (06:43):
So Jacinta Nampijinpa price, she was born in 1981, in Darwin.
She spent the first little bit of her life in
the Tiwi Islands, and then she travelled with her parents
to other remote communities is in WA as well, but
since she's been about three, she's been a resident of
Alice Springs. She became a town councillor in the mid
(07:06):
20 tens in 2015, and that really started to give
her more of a platform. Before that point, she had
been an entertainer. She was a person who played the
best friend of a honey ant called Yamba in a
very popular indigenous children's television program. She was a singer.
She starred in a play. She did hip hop with
(07:29):
a group called Catch the Fly. She was sassy Jay.
But yeah, in the mid 20 tens or so, she
starts to make this transition where she goes from being
an entertainer to being a politician. Her mother, best price
at that point was a politician herself with the Country
Liberal Party in the NT, Bess Price was actually a minister.
And then Jacinta becomes a town councillor in Alice Springs.
(07:53):
Does this Facebook post that really changes things? A 1400
word Facebook post Defending Australia Day, and why she thought
that it was wrong to try to shift the date
that gave her huge prominence. Then she gives a couple
of high profile talks about domestic violence. All of a
sudden she's appearing on Sky news, she's writing for The Australian,
(08:15):
and then she actually becomes a spokesperson for Advance Australia,
as it was then known, which is a very powerful
lobby group with which she would go on to become
very closely tied in the voice referendum.
S1 (08:30):
Now, we mentioned the no campaign in the referendum for
an Aboriginal voice to Parliament a bit before. That was,
of course, nearly two years ago. That really did rocket
her right from relative obscurity to, you'd have to say,
star power status.
S2 (08:43):
And I think in hindsight as well, like just how
instrumental she was in that outcome. Because if we go
back to 2023, the coalition were kind of deciding what
they were going to do. On The Voice. Peter Dutton
from from how people reflect on it kind of was
open to going either way. Then you had the nationals
(09:03):
come out first before the Liberal Party and the nationals
came out in a press conference early that year and said,
we are opposing the voice to parliament because that's what
Jacinta Nampijinpa price has advocated for. So you had Jacinta
kind of influencing the nationals policy? The nationals said no.
And once the nationals said no, it was also going
to be very difficult for the liberals to advocate a
separate position to their junior coalition partner. So then the
(09:26):
liberals moved? No. And then Jacinta became the kind of
spokesperson as well for the the coalition's no campaign as
well as the advance no campaign.
S3 (09:35):
I wouldn't like to entrench in our constitution the idea
of disadvantage, which I think is what the voice will do.
It'll suggest that we will forever require special measures, require
even a minister for Indigenous Australians, ultimately.
S2 (09:51):
So not only was she a huge voice during that,
she was also very instrumental in setting the coalition's position
on it, which then really affected the entire trajectory of
the referendum. So she was very powerful in that episode.
S3 (10:05):
I don't think we've looked at where the money has
been spent and looked at the organisations that exist to
alleviate disadvantage and understand well, where can it be better spent?
What is working and what isn't working?
S2 (10:19):
And it was reported at the time, but she did
this speaking to her advance, funded and organised part of that,
speaking to her. But tickets to see her would sell out.
People would queue up afterwards and ask for autographs. Then
that campaign obviously came to a close. I saw her
at a Liberal event in Perth during the election campaign
and that was when she, she said there, let's make
(10:42):
Australia great again in her kind of rallying speech. And
Arias were like, um, and gave this like very kind
of unwieldy but um, energetic press conference after but being
at that event, I saw people just flock to her after.
It was like she was a celebrity. There were women
who were crying because they'd seen her and were so
(11:03):
moved by her and her story. Everyone was referencing the
Australian story, like the Australian story became a big part of,
I think, her lore and how people came to understand her.
S3 (11:13):
I was completely shocked to find myself in a position
where I had become the victim of DV. Like I just.
S2 (11:24):
But it was just this effect that I'd never seen
around a politician before, in terms of the the genuine
emotion that was coming from people. And she was in
the middle of those crowds and she was absolutely radiant
as well. It was really something to behold. And this
press conference after, when she was asked about Make Australia
Great Again, she was like, oh, did I say that?
S3 (11:43):
No. If I said that, I didn't even realize I
said that. But no, we're all obsessed with Donald Trump.
We're not.
S2 (11:48):
Do you think that was genuine?
S1 (11:49):
That or do you think it was.
S2 (11:51):
Calculated with probably a view of whether it be the
these kind of comments you made about abortion last year
as well. There is a pattern of o I of
her saying something and then, oh, I didn't say it
or I didn't mean that or that's not what I said.
So what's that about?
S1 (12:06):
Is that just being an amateur or is that is
that a calculated sort of way to get press and
then to sort of back away?
S2 (12:12):
Yeah, it's it's I wonder if it's a kind of
she's misstepped. And obviously this week we didn't she didn't
want to say sorry. Right. So it doesn't seem like
that's something that she wants to be doing as a
politician apologizing. Her whole brand is being outspoken. Right. Exactly.
And unapologetic.
S1 (12:25):
That's what she says. I'm not going to back down.
I'm not going to back down from the facts or
the truth. That's what she says. Always. Right.
S4 (12:30):
And the other big part of her brand is that
she won't be silenced.
S1 (12:33):
That's right.
S2 (12:34):
Exactly.
S4 (12:35):
This is something that she repeats again and again, and
she has been praised for a very long time for
being outspoken on these issues, such as domestic violence or
sexual abuse. And she casts herself as someone who will
never back down and who will always try to fight
to have their voice heard. but I think that potentially
(12:56):
there are scenarios where that can box her in a
little bit. And I think that we saw that a
little bit with the court case that she's involved in
at the moment. Another one, she is facing a defamation
trial in October. She put out a press release about
the head of the Central Land Council, and the head
(13:17):
of the Land Council says that what she said was
just wrong, that there wasn't this vote of no confidence
that was, you know, had majority support behind it. Prices
actually dropped that truth defense. But she's never said sorry.
And she maintains that she acted reasonably and in the
public interest. And so without an apology, without any kind
(13:37):
of settlement between the parties, she's now facing this court
case that she says could financially ruin her. And if
she can't pay the legal costs and is bankrupted, then
she could even be forced out of Parliament, which is
why she's raised over $320,000 in donations in just a
couple of weeks.
S1 (13:58):
We'll be right back. Patrick, I want to ask you
another question. This, I guess, ties in with her brand
of I will not back down, and I will always
speak my truth and I won't be silenced because she
has very particular views, very strong views about the Stolen Generation,
violence in Aboriginal communities, and of course, land rights. So
how has that gone down with members of indigenous communities?
(14:21):
And can you sort of walk us through what her
views are on that? Because I think they really have
galvanized perhaps her base and then, of course, angered a
lot of people.
S4 (14:29):
On the Stolen Generations. What I found really interesting in
researching this article is that some of her supporters, including
her own father, including Tony Abbott, who is a massive
political ally of hers, they have quite strong views on
the Stolen Generations. They do not subscribe to the type
of history of the Stolen Generations that is taught in schools.
(14:51):
And she makes this point that in fact, too few
children are being removed today because there's a fear among
child protection authorities and governments that, oh, we can't have
another stolen generation or more stolen generations. But people I
spoke to, such as Jacinta Cracker, who's a young woman
and an Aboriginal enterprise fellow at the University of South Australia,
(15:14):
she just completely rejected this idea that children are being
kept in unsafe homes due to any kind of concern
such as this, she said. That connection to culture never
trumps safety in the child protection system, and that to
suggest that too few children are being removed is an
insult to all of those children out there who have
(15:35):
been removed and who are increasingly being removed.
S1 (15:37):
And Patrick, you actually visited Yuendumu, which is the community
in the Northern Territory where Price's grandparents lived, and her
parents first met. And you spoke to some of the
people there about these issues of of land rights and violence.
So what did you hear from the people that you
met there? You know, were they really in touch with
the controversies that Jacinta Price's comments have led to?
S4 (15:57):
So I spoke to several elders at Yuendumu who were
really quite upset with the way price talks about traditional
Aboriginal culture in particularly in particular Warlpiri culture. And this
link that she draws between traditional culture and violence. In 2018,
she actually tweeted that where connection to culture is strongest,
(16:18):
violence is highest. So you can't make a link more
explicit than that. But these elders I spoke to people
like Robin Gaponenko Granites or Tom Watson, Ned Jampijinpa Hargraves,
they really felt quite hurt by that and that she
was misrepresenting their culture. I did talk to price supporters
(16:41):
as well. People like her aunt Teresa Napurrula Ross, who
really supported the fact that Jacinta was in politics. But
I would say that most people I spoke to there
had a problem with how she spoke about Warlpiri culture
on the land issue, that I just found that fascinating.
Price has said a lot in the past about land councils,
(17:02):
these bodies that administer huge territories in Australia and who
are responsible for taking in money and redistributing it to
traditional owners. She thinks that they're opaque, that they're unaccountable.
She says that as a traditional owner, she hasn't been
able to realise the full benefit, the full financial benefit
of her land. But what we found in Yuendumu is
(17:23):
that there's actually a very specific dispute over this line
of hills south of the town. Bess Price says that
she is a traditional owner, and that would give Jacinta
a kind of ownership stake as well. But some people
in Yuendumu are adamant that that is not price, family, country,
that that is not their dreaming and that they should
(17:45):
not be entitled to claim it. And so that, I think,
really gives us a much fuller picture of Price's views
on this topic of land because she says so much
about it. But until we started researching this story, we
didn't know that there was this particular dispute over a
particular piece of country.
S1 (18:02):
And so do you think it's really important for listeners
and readers to know this? You know that she's got
these grievances, I guess, about the land councils, but then
she's got her own private interest in this matter. Like,
is this something that perhaps you felt was important to highlight?
S4 (18:15):
Look, I think it's completely relevant. And people I spoke
to for this story made clear that it's not uncommon
at all for there to be disputes between traditional owners,
between different family groups, about tracts of country. But we've
got a situation here where it's not just another citizen,
(18:36):
it's a senator. It's someone who has Parliament as a
platform with which they can pursue these topics and really
quite specifically go after particular land councils like the Central
Land Council. So the fact that she has a dispute
related to her own family, I think is very relevant.
S1 (18:53):
And Patrick, you know, Jacinta Nampijinpa price, I'm not sure
if a lot of listeners know this, but she's got
a lot of very high powered backers. This is something
you've really looked into. So tell us, what is it
about price that has attracted the likes of Gina Rinehart
and former Australian prime Minister Tony Abbott, who has been
in her corner? You know, as you as you've both
written in a very strong way for quite a while.
S4 (19:12):
Yeah. So Gina Rinehart famously made a cameo appearance in
the Senate when Senator Price made her maiden speech to Parliament.
Hancock Prospecting Rineharts Mining Company. It gave a donation of
$75,000 to the Country Liberal Party last year. That was
the first donation in a decade. And Rinehart has praised
(19:34):
price for speaking up and speaking the truth about marginalised communities.
In terms of politics, I think that her key backer
is Tony Abbott.
S2 (19:46):
I think in terms of the appeal, and I'm pretty
sure when Price's kind of star was rising during The Voice.
It was Michael McCormack of the nationals who said something
along the lines of she can say things that other
people want to say but can't say.
S1 (19:59):
Because she's an indigenous person.
S2 (20:01):
Yeah, because she's got the identity. Like the kind of
identity politics aligns with her being able to talk about
these things, kind of like what Pat was saying earlier,
some of this stuff around Stolen generations, other kind of
views about Australian history, the lens with which we view
Australian history. Price is, is of that conservative view. In
(20:21):
a way. I think that white conservative men don't get
the same ear these days. She, you know, says she
believes that stuff. And I think her National Press Club
speech in 2023, where she was saying some of this stuff,
like kind of downplaying the impact of colonisation.
S1 (20:41):
Denying intergenerational trauma.
S2 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, there were a lot of kind of kind
of people from the white and conservative side of politics
in that audience who were cheering her along. It wasn't
exclusive that, but that was a significant part of the audience.
And even still, you see today when she gives speeches,
including last weekend, she was at a Liberal Party fundraiser.
The majority of these audiences are older white people, at
(21:04):
least in what you observe. And so she has she
is such a compelling spokeswoman for that kind of political
ideology that I think someone Dominique Kelley, who's a researcher,
makes this point in our story. Jacinta's not the first
person like this. There have been many conservative Aboriginal thinkers,
(21:24):
and when they do come out and start finding a platform,
you do find these right wing or conservative think tanks
and organizations such as the Centre of Independent Studies, such
as the Institute of Public Affairs, such as Now advance,
kind of go to them and raise their platform. And
I think that's what we did see with Senator Pryce.
(21:45):
And she says in her book, when the when it
sounded like the Albanese government was going to pursue the referendum.
She told advance that they should get involved and then
it was advance who suggested to her that she be
the spokesperson for that movement? It was advance who suggested
to her, hey, we'll come to Alice Springs and film
your family and make this kind of promotional video with
your family, which is still the first thing you see
(22:06):
on the advance home page today. Um.
S4 (22:09):
They're very, I would say brash, populist. Their social media
messaging is in your face. Uh, they really, you know,
you don't have to guess who their favorites are and
who they don't like. And mass migration is a big
topic for advance at the moment. They have put out many,
(22:31):
many social media posts opposing the intake of immigration numbers
that we have at the moment. But some of that
imagery is it's AI generated imagery of people with dark hair,
brown skin, and they're shown queuing at airports or queuing
up for rental properties. I mean, it's very, very unsubtle.
(22:52):
And yet this is the group that is very much
in the corner of Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Tony Abbott.
Her mentor sits on the advisory Council of Advance.
S1 (23:03):
Okay. But just to follow up on this, you know,
advance denies that its immigration stance is racist. Right. And
it points to its support of Jacinta Nampijinpa price, an
indigenous senator, as proof that, you know, we're not racist.
So is there a case to be made that advance,
or perhaps any conservative person or group could be using price,
I guess, to score points for placing an indigenous woman
(23:25):
front and centre of their campaigns. You know, does it help? Perhaps. Excuse.
S2 (23:29):
I think this is the debate that's existed around Jacinta
Nampijinpa price ever since she started speaking out. You had
people like Marcia Langston, also a very prominent voice in
indigenous affairs for a long, long time, come out with
a very critical Saturday paper piece about price before price
entered Parliament. Noel Pearson, a lead proponent of the voice,
was very, very critical of price. Um, there are people
(23:50):
who see price being used as a tool of right
wing conservatives to push their agenda, because she is an
acceptable face of that thought these days. Price has had
to answer to that often. She denies it. I think
there's a there's a great quote that opened the Australian story,
where basically she said something of the like of, you know, yeah,
people would love to think that I'm a gift to
conservative Australia, but basically no one can manipulate me. Right.
(24:15):
And I think there's there's no there's no denying she
is a, a very kind of forthright person with a
lot of kind of self-belief. And I think that that
insinuation is very insulting to her. She, she would say,
you know, I can be a conservative black woman.
S4 (24:33):
Firstly, there's no doubt that the price family's conservatism goes
back a long, long way. It goes back to the
early 2000. The other point is that when people say, oh,
is Jacinta Nampijinpa price being used. I think the other
way of looking at it is, well, what does she
get out of this as well? If conservatives see her
(24:56):
as an attractive character and as an attractive campaigner, then
she also gets huge exposure. I mean, in terms of
free advertising, the number of times that she appears or
the frequency with which she appears in advance is promotional material.
So I think that it is maybe a bit simplistic
(25:16):
to say, oh, are conservatives using her? Because I think
that there is a there is an alignment of values
and there is a mutually beneficial relationship here.
S1 (25:27):
Well, then just to wrap up and on that point,
you know, she is still, of course, a political celebrity
in many people's eyes. But you spoke to people who
think that she's risen up through the ranks too quickly.
She's out of her depth on policy. You know, they
say that, you know, she's had a fickle stance on abortion,
transgender issues. So do you think is this the beginning
of the end for Jacinta Nampijinpa price? Or is it
(25:50):
just the beginning?
S2 (25:51):
I think there are people in the Liberal Party or
talking to people in the Liberal Party after this fortnight,
even people in the more conservative side of the Liberal
Party who are not happy with her performance. She still
has a tight group of people around her who are
kind of like the big fans. But I think she's
isolated people who are otherwise kind of open to her
(26:12):
involvement and and supportive of her. Well, and this is
the other unique thing about price, I think, is that
her support doesn't come from within. So it kind of
doesn't matter if a lot of her colleagues aren't that
happy with her. Her support doesn't come from her colleagues.
Her support comes from the community as well as from
people like Abbott, who are kind of behind the scenes
(26:32):
of the Liberal Party. She has more followers on social
media than any other Liberal or coalition politician. Her supporters
started bombarding other Liberal MPs last week, when she was
under pressure over the migration thing, telling them to leave
her alone and that she had a point. They were
not happy about that. There's a huge fundraiser. Like even
it was amazing after she was in such hot water
(26:54):
this last two weeks and oh, like every other night,
it seems she's at a Liberal Party fundraiser because at
the end of the day, the people who really believe
what she has to say, they're not deterred by this stuff.
And I think this situation was also martyred her in
a way that will only kind of, uh, amongst the
kind of aggrieved part of her supporter base who feel
like she's been unfairly maligned because they also agree with
(27:15):
what she's saying. Um, I think her her status only
rises from there.
S4 (27:21):
And if you look at how she appeals to donors
when she needed to fundraise for her defamation case, she said, basically,
protect me as your voice in Canberra. If I'm kicked
out of Parliament because I lose this case, then you
lose your voice and I'm fighting every day for you,
(27:42):
was the message. And so, yeah.
S1 (27:46):
That's what we've got. Well, it's definitely something to watch.
So thank you so much Patrick and Natasha for your time.
S6 (27:52):
Thank you.
S1 (28:00):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole,
with technical assistance by Josh Towers and Hannah Anderson. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions,
(28:23):
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And to stay up to date, sign up to our
Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's
most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are
in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
September 16th. Jacinta Nampijinpa Price's plain speaking charisma has led
to her meteoric rise, and also to her recent relegation
to the backbench, lambasted for her position on various issues
(00:25):
including the Stolen Generation, the Black Lives Matter movement and,
more recently, immigration. The indigenous senator is celebrated by some
of the most powerful conservatives in the country, and has
become the most followed coalition MP on social media today.
Investigative reporter Patrick Begley and federal political reporter Natassia Chrysanthos.
(00:47):
On whether Jacinta Nampijinpa price has risen up the ranks
too quickly, or if she's just getting started. So Patrick
and Natasha. Jacinta Nampijinpa price has, of course, dominated the
front page in the last week because, you know, she
was booted off the frontbench. We're going to get into that.
(01:07):
But before that, it's worth noting that you started work
on these two massive features that you co-wrote about this
divisive senator more than a month before this bombshell event
in her career. So I really want to know why,
you know, why did you decide back then that really,
this is someone who's worthy of, like 7000 words? Was
there something about her that you thought maybe readers or
(01:28):
listeners had missed, or just kind of slipped between the
cracks of other coverage? Like what was it?
S2 (01:34):
The piece was first commissioned just after the election, where
we didn't see Senator Price play a huge role, but
where she did kind of come into the public space.
It was it was notable. And that's a reference to
the Make Australia Great Again gaffe.
S3 (01:50):
That we can make Australia great again, that we can
bring Australia back to its former glory, that we can
get Australia.
S2 (01:57):
As it is now known, that was widely thought to
have hurt the coalition. And then immediately post-election, we saw
her defect from the nationals to the liberals to run
for the Liberal Party deputy leadership. She had the backing
behind the scenes of people like Tony Abbott and Peta Credlin,
who are still very influential in the Liberal Party. And
while that leadership ballot. Angus Taylor as leader lost to
(02:19):
Sussan Ley by about three votes, it was kind of
this real pivotal moment where we, I think realised as
a newsroom all of a sudden we could have, you know,
this woman, just enterprise as a deputy Liberal leader. And
we hadn't written that much about her in terms of
her political career to date. She very much kind of
(02:40):
became a national name through the voice referendum. And while
her pre-parliamentary career. She'd written a lot, for example, for
News Corp publications and been interviewed a lot there, I
think our readers probably weren't as familiar with who she
was before Parliament and where she came from. So I
think at that point, whether she had won the Liberal
deputy leadership or not, it was obvious that she was
going to be a kind of staying force in Australian politics,
(03:02):
and it was probably a bit time to dive into
that a bit more deeply.
S4 (03:06):
And I think also her name recognition is kind of
disproportionate to like, you know, how long she's been around.
I mean, she is according to resolve polls, she's one
of the most well liked politicians in Australia, has huge
name recognition through the voice. And she's also someone that
(03:27):
puts out a lot about their own personal story. So
this year, she released her memoir, matters of the heart.
She did an Australian Story profile with the ABC.
S3 (03:37):
I'm incredibly passionate and committed to Australia. It's my home
and my place of belonging.
S4 (03:44):
And I think the other reason that we wanted to
look into her more is that she really does marry
personal experiences with her political views, and draws very explicit
links between what has happened to her in her past
and to her family, and what she thinks now about
key issues.
S1 (04:00):
Okay, well, let's get into it. So, Taz, I'm going
to turn to you because just briefly, can you remind
listeners of the series of events that led to her
demotion from the frontbench by Liberal Leader Susan Lee just
last week?
S2 (04:12):
Just last week? Well, I guess it started the week
before she made an appearance on the ABCs Afternoon Briefing program.
It was a few days after there had been several
anti-immigration rallies across the country. She was asked then by
the host, Patricia Karvelas, you know, do you think people
marching are concerned about the core number of immigrants coming
in or the type of migrant? And price said of
(04:34):
absolutely the core number. But there's also a concern about
basically labor bringing in specific groups of migrants because they
vote Labour.
S3 (04:44):
Are they going to see a reflection that, okay, these
individuals are going to vote for us more, more so
than other parts of the community? Well, then, of course
they're going to express a view that we'll get those
sorts of individuals into our communities.
S2 (04:58):
And I think this is this gets to another interesting
point about Price's approach to media. She hasn't done a
lot of interviews on the ABC. She's much more comfortable
on Sky. An afternoon ABC interview is going to interrogate
that claim. And that's what happened. And she was asked
about four follow up questions about it. Of course, it
was not a factual claim, so there was not evidence.
(05:20):
And then she got into the position where, after four questions,
she names the Indian community as an example.
S3 (05:25):
There is a concern with the Indian community, and only
because there's been large numbers, and we can see that
reflected in the way that the community votes.
S2 (05:32):
And that sets off a chain of events because it
upsets Indian Australians. They are a very important constituency in
Australian politics in general, but also for the coalition. Over
the next week, you've got all her colleagues wanting to
her to apologise. Price being extremely defiant, not wanting to
back down and to the point where, about eight days
(05:54):
later she wouldn't give confidence explicitly in her later Susan Lee.
And so Susan Lee said she had no choice but
to sack her at that point.
S5 (06:03):
Confidence in the leader is a requirement for serving in
the shadow ministry.
S2 (06:09):
So now she's on the backbench, which, as we know,
is where all the most vocal politicians are now. It'll
be interesting. Yeah, exactly.
S1 (06:17):
Absolutely. Now, Patrick, I want to turn to you because
I think it's fair to say that Jacinta and Julia
Price has had a very particular way of viewing indigenous
issues and migrants long before these views sort of came
to a boil last week. And we're going to get
into the divisions that this is sort of raising, I guess,
in the coalition soon. But can you just tell us
(06:38):
a bit about Price's upbringing, her political career and how
that sort of shaped her views today?
S4 (06:43):
So Jacinta Nampijinpa price, she was born in 1981, in Darwin.
She spent the first little bit of her life in
the Tiwi Islands, and then she travelled with her parents
to other remote communities is in WA as well, but
since she's been about three, she's been a resident of
Alice Springs. She became a town councillor in the mid
(07:06):
20 tens in 2015, and that really started to give
her more of a platform. Before that point, she had
been an entertainer. She was a person who played the
best friend of a honey ant called Yamba in a
very popular indigenous children's television program. She was a singer.
She starred in a play. She did hip hop with
(07:29):
a group called Catch the Fly. She was sassy Jay.
But yeah, in the mid 20 tens or so, she
starts to make this transition where she goes from being
an entertainer to being a politician. Her mother, best price
at that point was a politician herself with the Country
Liberal Party in the NT, Bess Price was actually a minister.
And then Jacinta becomes a town councillor in Alice Springs.
(07:53):
Does this Facebook post that really changes things? A 1400
word Facebook post Defending Australia Day, and why she thought
that it was wrong to try to shift the date
that gave her huge prominence. Then she gives a couple
of high profile talks about domestic violence. All of a
sudden she's appearing on Sky news, she's writing for The Australian,
(08:15):
and then she actually becomes a spokesperson for Advance Australia,
as it was then known, which is a very powerful
lobby group with which she would go on to become
very closely tied in the voice referendum.
S1 (08:30):
Now, we mentioned the no campaign in the referendum for
an Aboriginal voice to Parliament a bit before. That was,
of course, nearly two years ago. That really did rocket
her right from relative obscurity to, you'd have to say,
star power status.
S2 (08:43):
And I think in hindsight as well, like just how
instrumental she was in that outcome. Because if we go
back to 2023, the coalition were kind of deciding what
they were going to do. On The Voice. Peter Dutton
from from how people reflect on it kind of was
open to going either way. Then you had the nationals
(09:03):
come out first before the Liberal Party and the nationals
came out in a press conference early that year and said,
we are opposing the voice to parliament because that's what
Jacinta Nampijinpa price has advocated for. So you had Jacinta
kind of influencing the nationals policy? The nationals said no.
And once the nationals said no, it was also going
to be very difficult for the liberals to advocate a
separate position to their junior coalition partner. So then the
(09:26):
liberals moved? No. And then Jacinta became the kind of
spokesperson as well for the the coalition's no campaign as
well as the advance no campaign.
S3 (09:35):
I wouldn't like to entrench in our constitution the idea
of disadvantage, which I think is what the voice will do.
It'll suggest that we will forever require special measures, require
even a minister for Indigenous Australians, ultimately.
S2 (09:51):
So not only was she a huge voice during that,
she was also very instrumental in setting the coalition's position
on it, which then really affected the entire trajectory of
the referendum. So she was very powerful in that episode.
S3 (10:05):
I don't think we've looked at where the money has
been spent and looked at the organisations that exist to
alleviate disadvantage and understand well, where can it be better spent?
What is working and what isn't working?
S2 (10:19):
And it was reported at the time, but she did
this speaking to her advance, funded and organised part of that,
speaking to her. But tickets to see her would sell out.
People would queue up afterwards and ask for autographs. Then
that campaign obviously came to a close. I saw her
at a Liberal event in Perth during the election campaign
and that was when she, she said there, let's make
(10:42):
Australia great again in her kind of rallying speech. And
Arias were like, um, and gave this like very kind
of unwieldy but um, energetic press conference after but being
at that event, I saw people just flock to her after.
It was like she was a celebrity. There were women
who were crying because they'd seen her and were so
(11:03):
moved by her and her story. Everyone was referencing the
Australian story, like the Australian story became a big part of,
I think, her lore and how people came to understand her.
S3 (11:13):
I was completely shocked to find myself in a position
where I had become the victim of DV. Like I just.
S2 (11:24):
But it was just this effect that I'd never seen
around a politician before, in terms of the the genuine
emotion that was coming from people. And she was in
the middle of those crowds and she was absolutely radiant
as well. It was really something to behold. And this
press conference after, when she was asked about Make Australia
Great Again, she was like, oh, did I say that?
S3 (11:43):
No. If I said that, I didn't even realize I
said that. But no, we're all obsessed with Donald Trump.
We're not.
S2 (11:48):
Do you think that was genuine?
S1 (11:49):
That or do you think it was.
S2 (11:51):
Calculated with probably a view of whether it be the
these kind of comments you made about abortion last year
as well. There is a pattern of o I of
her saying something and then, oh, I didn't say it
or I didn't mean that or that's not what I said.
So what's that about?
S1 (12:06):
Is that just being an amateur or is that is
that a calculated sort of way to get press and
then to sort of back away?
S2 (12:12):
Yeah, it's it's I wonder if it's a kind of
she's misstepped. And obviously this week we didn't she didn't
want to say sorry. Right. So it doesn't seem like
that's something that she wants to be doing as a
politician apologizing. Her whole brand is being outspoken. Right. Exactly.
And unapologetic.
S1 (12:25):
That's what she says. I'm not going to back down.
I'm not going to back down from the facts or
the truth. That's what she says. Always. Right.
S4 (12:30):
And the other big part of her brand is that
she won't be silenced.
S1 (12:33):
That's right.
S2 (12:34):
Exactly.
S4 (12:35):
This is something that she repeats again and again, and
she has been praised for a very long time for
being outspoken on these issues, such as domestic violence or
sexual abuse. And she casts herself as someone who will
never back down and who will always try to fight
to have their voice heard. but I think that potentially
(12:56):
there are scenarios where that can box her in a
little bit. And I think that we saw that a
little bit with the court case that she's involved in
at the moment. Another one, she is facing a defamation
trial in October. She put out a press release about
the head of the Central Land Council, and the head
(13:17):
of the Land Council says that what she said was
just wrong, that there wasn't this vote of no confidence
that was, you know, had majority support behind it. Prices
actually dropped that truth defense. But she's never said sorry.
And she maintains that she acted reasonably and in the
public interest. And so without an apology, without any kind
(13:37):
of settlement between the parties, she's now facing this court
case that she says could financially ruin her. And if
she can't pay the legal costs and is bankrupted, then
she could even be forced out of Parliament, which is
why she's raised over $320,000 in donations in just a
couple of weeks.
S1 (13:58):
We'll be right back. Patrick, I want to ask you
another question. This, I guess, ties in with her brand
of I will not back down, and I will always
speak my truth and I won't be silenced because she
has very particular views, very strong views about the Stolen Generation,
violence in Aboriginal communities, and of course, land rights. So
how has that gone down with members of indigenous communities?
(14:21):
And can you sort of walk us through what her
views are on that? Because I think they really have
galvanized perhaps her base and then, of course, angered a
lot of people.
S4 (14:29):
On the Stolen Generations. What I found really interesting in
researching this article is that some of her supporters, including
her own father, including Tony Abbott, who is a massive
political ally of hers, they have quite strong views on
the Stolen Generations. They do not subscribe to the type
of history of the Stolen Generations that is taught in schools.
(14:51):
And she makes this point that in fact, too few
children are being removed today because there's a fear among
child protection authorities and governments that, oh, we can't have
another stolen generation or more stolen generations. But people I
spoke to, such as Jacinta Cracker, who's a young woman
and an Aboriginal enterprise fellow at the University of South Australia,
(15:14):
she just completely rejected this idea that children are being
kept in unsafe homes due to any kind of concern
such as this, she said. That connection to culture never
trumps safety in the child protection system, and that to
suggest that too few children are being removed is an
insult to all of those children out there who have
(15:35):
been removed and who are increasingly being removed.
S1 (15:37):
And Patrick, you actually visited Yuendumu, which is the community
in the Northern Territory where Price's grandparents lived, and her
parents first met. And you spoke to some of the
people there about these issues of of land rights and violence.
So what did you hear from the people that you
met there? You know, were they really in touch with
the controversies that Jacinta Price's comments have led to?
S4 (15:57):
So I spoke to several elders at Yuendumu who were
really quite upset with the way price talks about traditional
Aboriginal culture in particularly in particular Warlpiri culture. And this
link that she draws between traditional culture and violence. In 2018,
she actually tweeted that where connection to culture is strongest,
(16:18):
violence is highest. So you can't make a link more
explicit than that. But these elders I spoke to people
like Robin Gaponenko Granites or Tom Watson, Ned Jampijinpa Hargraves,
they really felt quite hurt by that and that she
was misrepresenting their culture. I did talk to price supporters
(16:41):
as well. People like her aunt Teresa Napurrula Ross, who
really supported the fact that Jacinta was in politics. But
I would say that most people I spoke to there
had a problem with how she spoke about Warlpiri culture
on the land issue, that I just found that fascinating.
Price has said a lot in the past about land councils,
(17:02):
these bodies that administer huge territories in Australia and who
are responsible for taking in money and redistributing it to
traditional owners. She thinks that they're opaque, that they're unaccountable.
She says that as a traditional owner, she hasn't been
able to realise the full benefit, the full financial benefit
of her land. But what we found in Yuendumu is
(17:23):
that there's actually a very specific dispute over this line
of hills south of the town. Bess Price says that
she is a traditional owner, and that would give Jacinta
a kind of ownership stake as well. But some people
in Yuendumu are adamant that that is not price, family, country,
that that is not their dreaming and that they should
(17:45):
not be entitled to claim it. And so that, I think,
really gives us a much fuller picture of Price's views
on this topic of land because she says so much
about it. But until we started researching this story, we
didn't know that there was this particular dispute over a
particular piece of country.
S1 (18:02):
And so do you think it's really important for listeners
and readers to know this? You know that she's got
these grievances, I guess, about the land councils, but then
she's got her own private interest in this matter. Like,
is this something that perhaps you felt was important to highlight?
S4 (18:15):
Look, I think it's completely relevant. And people I spoke
to for this story made clear that it's not uncommon
at all for there to be disputes between traditional owners,
between different family groups, about tracts of country. But we've
got a situation here where it's not just another citizen,
(18:36):
it's a senator. It's someone who has Parliament as a
platform with which they can pursue these topics and really
quite specifically go after particular land councils like the Central
Land Council. So the fact that she has a dispute
related to her own family, I think is very relevant.
S1 (18:53):
And Patrick, you know, Jacinta Nampijinpa price, I'm not sure
if a lot of listeners know this, but she's got
a lot of very high powered backers. This is something
you've really looked into. So tell us, what is it
about price that has attracted the likes of Gina Rinehart
and former Australian prime Minister Tony Abbott, who has been
in her corner? You know, as you as you've both
written in a very strong way for quite a while.
S4 (19:12):
Yeah. So Gina Rinehart famously made a cameo appearance in
the Senate when Senator Price made her maiden speech to Parliament.
Hancock Prospecting Rineharts Mining Company. It gave a donation of
$75,000 to the Country Liberal Party last year. That was
the first donation in a decade. And Rinehart has praised
(19:34):
price for speaking up and speaking the truth about marginalised communities.
In terms of politics, I think that her key backer
is Tony Abbott.
S2 (19:46):
I think in terms of the appeal, and I'm pretty
sure when Price's kind of star was rising during The Voice.
It was Michael McCormack of the nationals who said something
along the lines of she can say things that other
people want to say but can't say.
S1 (19:59):
Because she's an indigenous person.
S2 (20:01):
Yeah, because she's got the identity. Like the kind of
identity politics aligns with her being able to talk about
these things, kind of like what Pat was saying earlier,
some of this stuff around Stolen generations, other kind of
views about Australian history, the lens with which we view
Australian history. Price is, is of that conservative view. In
(20:21):
a way. I think that white conservative men don't get
the same ear these days. She, you know, says she
believes that stuff. And I think her National Press Club
speech in 2023, where she was saying some of this stuff,
like kind of downplaying the impact of colonisation.
S1 (20:41):
Denying intergenerational trauma.
S2 (20:43):
Yeah, yeah, there were a lot of kind of kind
of people from the white and conservative side of politics
in that audience who were cheering her along. It wasn't
exclusive that, but that was a significant part of the audience.
And even still, you see today when she gives speeches,
including last weekend, she was at a Liberal Party fundraiser.
The majority of these audiences are older white people, at
(21:04):
least in what you observe. And so she has she
is such a compelling spokeswoman for that kind of political
ideology that I think someone Dominique Kelley, who's a researcher,
makes this point in our story. Jacinta's not the first
person like this. There have been many conservative Aboriginal thinkers,
(21:24):
and when they do come out and start finding a platform,
you do find these right wing or conservative think tanks
and organizations such as the Centre of Independent Studies, such
as the Institute of Public Affairs, such as Now advance,
kind of go to them and raise their platform. And
I think that's what we did see with Senator Pryce.
(21:45):
And she says in her book, when the when it
sounded like the Albanese government was going to pursue the referendum.
She told advance that they should get involved and then
it was advance who suggested to her that she be
the spokesperson for that movement? It was advance who suggested
to her, hey, we'll come to Alice Springs and film
your family and make this kind of promotional video with
your family, which is still the first thing you see
(22:06):
on the advance home page today. Um.
S4 (22:09):
They're very, I would say brash, populist. Their social media
messaging is in your face. Uh, they really, you know,
you don't have to guess who their favorites are and
who they don't like. And mass migration is a big
topic for advance at the moment. They have put out many,
(22:31):
many social media posts opposing the intake of immigration numbers
that we have at the moment. But some of that
imagery is it's AI generated imagery of people with dark hair,
brown skin, and they're shown queuing at airports or queuing
up for rental properties. I mean, it's very, very unsubtle.
(22:52):
And yet this is the group that is very much
in the corner of Jacinta Nampijinpa Price and Tony Abbott.
Her mentor sits on the advisory Council of Advance.
S1 (23:03):
Okay. But just to follow up on this, you know,
advance denies that its immigration stance is racist. Right. And
it points to its support of Jacinta Nampijinpa price, an
indigenous senator, as proof that, you know, we're not racist.
So is there a case to be made that advance,
or perhaps any conservative person or group could be using price,
I guess, to score points for placing an indigenous woman
(23:25):
front and centre of their campaigns. You know, does it help? Perhaps. Excuse.
S2 (23:29):
I think this is the debate that's existed around Jacinta
Nampijinpa price ever since she started speaking out. You had
people like Marcia Langston, also a very prominent voice in
indigenous affairs for a long, long time, come out with
a very critical Saturday paper piece about price before price
entered Parliament. Noel Pearson, a lead proponent of the voice,
was very, very critical of price. Um, there are people
(23:50):
who see price being used as a tool of right
wing conservatives to push their agenda, because she is an
acceptable face of that thought these days. Price has had
to answer to that often. She denies it. I think
there's a there's a great quote that opened the Australian story,
where basically she said something of the like of, you know, yeah,
people would love to think that I'm a gift to
conservative Australia, but basically no one can manipulate me. Right.
(24:15):
And I think there's there's no there's no denying she
is a, a very kind of forthright person with a
lot of kind of self-belief. And I think that that
insinuation is very insulting to her. She, she would say,
you know, I can be a conservative black woman.
S4 (24:33):
Firstly, there's no doubt that the price family's conservatism goes
back a long, long way. It goes back to the
early 2000. The other point is that when people say, oh,
is Jacinta Nampijinpa price being used. I think the other
way of looking at it is, well, what does she
get out of this as well? If conservatives see her
(24:56):
as an attractive character and as an attractive campaigner, then
she also gets huge exposure. I mean, in terms of
free advertising, the number of times that she appears or
the frequency with which she appears in advance is promotional material.
So I think that it is maybe a bit simplistic
(25:16):
to say, oh, are conservatives using her? Because I think
that there is a there is an alignment of values
and there is a mutually beneficial relationship here.
S1 (25:27):
Well, then just to wrap up and on that point,
you know, she is still, of course, a political celebrity
in many people's eyes. But you spoke to people who
think that she's risen up through the ranks too quickly.
She's out of her depth on policy. You know, they
say that, you know, she's had a fickle stance on abortion,
transgender issues. So do you think is this the beginning
of the end for Jacinta Nampijinpa price? Or is it
(25:50):
just the beginning?
S2 (25:51):
I think there are people in the Liberal Party or
talking to people in the Liberal Party after this fortnight,
even people in the more conservative side of the Liberal
Party who are not happy with her performance. She still
has a tight group of people around her who are
kind of like the big fans. But I think she's
isolated people who are otherwise kind of open to her
(26:12):
involvement and and supportive of her. Well, and this is
the other unique thing about price, I think, is that
her support doesn't come from within. So it kind of
doesn't matter if a lot of her colleagues aren't that
happy with her. Her support doesn't come from her colleagues.
Her support comes from the community as well as from
people like Abbott, who are kind of behind the scenes
(26:32):
of the Liberal Party. She has more followers on social
media than any other Liberal or coalition politician. Her supporters
started bombarding other Liberal MPs last week, when she was
under pressure over the migration thing, telling them to leave
her alone and that she had a point. They were
not happy about that. There's a huge fundraiser. Like even
it was amazing after she was in such hot water
(26:54):
this last two weeks and oh, like every other night,
it seems she's at a Liberal Party fundraiser because at
the end of the day, the people who really believe
what she has to say, they're not deterred by this stuff.
And I think this situation was also martyred her in
a way that will only kind of, uh, amongst the
kind of aggrieved part of her supporter base who feel
like she's been unfairly maligned because they also agree with
(27:15):
what she's saying. Um, I think her her status only
rises from there.
S4 (27:21):
And if you look at how she appeals to donors
when she needed to fundraise for her defamation case, she said, basically,
protect me as your voice in Canberra. If I'm kicked
out of Parliament because I lose this case, then you
lose your voice and I'm fighting every day for you,
(27:42):
was the message. And so, yeah.
S1 (27:46):
That's what we've got. Well, it's definitely something to watch.
So thank you so much Patrick and Natasha for your time.
S6 (27:52):
Thank you.
S1 (28:00):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole,
with technical assistance by Josh Towers and Hannah Anderson. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions,
(28:23):
so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or Smh.com.au.
And to stay up to date, sign up to our
Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's
most important news in your inbox every morning. Links are
in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
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