Newly elected Prime Minister Anthony Albanese joins chief political correspondent David Crowe and federal political reporter Paul Sakkal for an exclusive interview on Inside Politics. They chat about the new Labor cabinet, Albanese's thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a new phrase the prime minister is trying out - progressive patriotism.
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
Jacqueline Maley. It's Thursday, May 15th. Today we bring you
a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
(00:22):
his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
S2 (00:30):
Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
you for having time to talk to us. Good to
be here. And so soon after the the formation of
your new ministry. And just as you head off on
some important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I
thought we would start with one of the things that
(00:52):
you're heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass
for Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week
as an important moment for you to go and meet
world leaders, but it also has an important aspect of faith.
And you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to
your mother in her life, and I wanted to ask
about that as an opening question. How important is your
(01:15):
faith in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
S3 (01:19):
I think these issues are a matter of your own
development as well, and it's a part of who I
am my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements
I made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate
was that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something
(01:40):
that's a part of how I was raised in the
Catholic faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly
vulnerable people. I believe in a separation of church and state.
So I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to
do an affirmation because I think that as the Australian
(02:02):
Prime Minister, I represent people of every faith and no faith.
And so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other
people who swear on the Bible or the Koran in
Ali's case, is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice.
But for me, that's a personal choice that I make
(02:24):
and have made. But I say I was raised with
three great faiths the Labour Party, South Sydney in the
Catholic Church, and it will be an incredible honour for
me to be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have
in my office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother
(02:45):
sent away from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI,
who visited Australia, of course, and went to my street,
Pyrmont Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across
the road. And that was a great moment in my
mom's life. I remember it, uh, very deeply. And I
(03:07):
still have the book that my mom had. All the
memorabilia from the papal visit at that time is one
of my cherished possessions.
S2 (03:16):
There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers that
don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
is about. Do you think that there is a moral
purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
S3 (03:30):
Uh, I think there absolutely has to be a moral
purpose to politics. Uh, for me, it's about how do
you make people's lives better? Uh, it's captured in a
statement that I made many times during the election campaign.
No one held back. No one left behind. Uh, that
that is a part of our purpose in politics is
(03:54):
to make a difference to people's lives.
S1 (03:56):
Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
the face of the country. I wonder what you think
the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
(04:18):
proves that in a more cosmopolitan world. Labor is the
natural party of government, not your opponents.
S3 (04:24):
I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
I think if you look at what we seek to
represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
(04:49):
the people who many people really need a Labour government
to make a difference to their lives. I think that
our destiny is to try to be the natural party
of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
(05:12):
was who was seeking to bring people together and who
was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
people against each other.
S1 (05:24):
Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
S3 (05:33):
Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
we also very much believe in markets and that markets
are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
(05:55):
I believe in a private sector being the key driver
of growth, but the public sector should step in where
there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
is one way that it's been called. You know, we
spoke about doing things the Australian way, not looking towards
(06:19):
any other method or ideology from overseas to try to copy.
If we get this right, we can be increasingly successful.
I look at the caucus and I have very consciously
tried to bring in to the caucus as well, a
broad range of people from different backgrounds. We are so
(06:40):
much more.
S1 (06:40):
A lot of them yourself. Right. A lot of these
caucus members, you you played a more hands on role
in picking candidates than most party leaders.
S3 (06:47):
Well, I had a focus from 2022 of where are
we going to be at in 2025 and work our
way back rather than just go through. And you've got
to be. It's a bit like, uh, I guess the
coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
(07:08):
in May or June, you win it in September. How
do you peak in September? How do you get the
right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
do you get the right framing so that when it
really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
the Australian people going forward? Uh, that's something that I
(07:28):
did from 2019 through to my first term as, as
opposition leader to bring us into government. It's something that
we consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums
internal to the party that we engage with as well,
not just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
S2 (07:51):
You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
lot of people regard Patriotism is a bad thing because
it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious of
that as a factor through the campaign, and is it
going to be something that guides you now in this
(08:11):
second term?
S3 (08:12):
I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
(08:34):
who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
should be really proud of. We should be proud of
what we've created here. And I think in terms of
the broader global issues as well, that at a time
(08:58):
where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
divided on the basis of race or religion. Uh, here
in Australia, we can be a microcosm for the world
that says that we're enriched by our diversity, that we
have respect for people of different faiths, that we try
to bring people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas
(09:20):
and play out that conflict here either. And that's really important.
This is a project, if you like, that's not just
about strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the
globe in how humanity can move forward.
S2 (09:41):
Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
S3 (10:01):
Not at all. Web focused is what we are. And
we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
had a plan for more than one term for a
(10:24):
long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
that is why so many things that we've set out
for this term were things that built on what we
had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
(10:47):
the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
(11:08):
But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
given them.
S2 (11:28):
What do you think of the observation that's been made
by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
because of the size of the number of seats that
you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
this term, but the next one as well.
S3 (11:39):
Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
take anything for granted. And some of those same people
were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
we had for a may election and that we could
(12:02):
be successful, and we put those measures in place and
we received the support of the Australian people. I want
to get our primary vote up higher at the next
election than we did this time. But if you look
at the work that we've done, it is significant that
over a period of time it had been dropping. We
(12:23):
did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
(12:45):
to be a good government.
S2 (12:47):
Did it exceed your expectations?
S3 (12:48):
I expected us to win a majority government the whole
way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
never saw that as what the outcome would be the
outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
(13:10):
you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
here and here. But chances are you don't get all
of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
S1 (13:29):
Can I just ask.
S3 (13:30):
Bullwinkel.
S1 (13:31):
On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
of your ministers said that when you would talk about
those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
S3 (13:47):
The evidence is there because I thought we had the
right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
I also saw that I know what it takes to
take an opposition into the government. I did serious policies,
fully costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a
(14:10):
series of vision statements. I went to the National Press
Club regularly. I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable,
we did hard work and I didn't see the opposition
doing laying that groundwork that you need and thought they
would be very, very vulnerable during an election campaign. I
(14:31):
unusually agreed to four debates. Some in my own team
said that was crazy brave. I think it was the
right thing to do. Went to the National Press Club.
I did all of that. And I also thought that
the Greens political party were vulnerable. I saw that in
(14:51):
my local community that they had lost their way in
blocking Labor's housing reforms and not being a party which
concentrated on the environment and on issues that mattered most
to people.
S1 (15:07):
Just on the on the size of the win, Prime Minister,
do you feel a sense of and I think there's
an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
I think Trump allowed you to project as a centre
left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
(15:29):
there a chance that we're overanalyzing the Labour win? Because
the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
S3 (15:38):
No, I think that, uh, some of the commentariat have, uh,
looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
touch last year.
S1 (15:49):
In the media.
S3 (15:50):
Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
position for a government if you look historically in Australia
for polls that have been around for a long period
of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
(16:12):
we're on 49 is going into an election is a
strong position for a government. You know, if you're in
trying to get to government, you've got to have a narrative,
an offer. We had as well, I think, a record
(16:34):
that we were proud of that we could talk about,
that people could recognise. The Australian people have done it
tough over Covid under the former government, and then that
due to supply chain issues and a range of things,
including international factors, led to cost of living pressures. People
(16:54):
know that we were trying to do something about it.
Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures and we had
got inflation down, interest rates starting to fall. Real wages
up and employment was strong. There are a set of
economic numbers that are the envy of other parts of
(17:16):
the industrialized world. So we had a good story to tell.
We've done that whilst at the same time doing major reform.
The aged care reforms are the biggest reforms this century.
The clean energy transformation, what we're doing on a future
made in Australia, the childcare reforms, the completion of the
National Broadband Network, the rolling out of infrastructure projects. We
(17:41):
had done a pretty comprehensive plan across the range of
portfolios that were there, but we also had the forward
offer that we started to roll out, uh, from last
November with the free TAFE extension, with the 20% cut
in student debt, and then had a series of major announcements,
(18:05):
including the most significant of which was strengthening Medicare that
we did in Launceston in the electorate of bass. And
so we had a very clear plan. I outlined that
to colleagues. I also outlined where it would be successful.
It's no accident. The major announcements that we made prior
(18:26):
to the election were being called. Were in Sturt, in Griffith,
in Bass. That's where we were thinking that we could
be positive in and seats like Braddon. There's no doubt
in my mind that if Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be.
(18:47):
Incredibly generous in leaving a Senate spot which she wasn't
even up for election on, to risk running for a
seat where Labour was on 42% at the last election.
She could win that seat and she did with, the
largest swing in the country, 15%.
S2 (19:06):
We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
But first up on the mandate on what this election
means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
but how much flexibility does that give you in being
bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
(19:29):
of the first term. Do you accept that there was
some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
And will that change in the second term?
S3 (19:39):
I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
(20:00):
that green metals will be produced, for example. There's nothing
timid about that. We intervened in the gas and coal
markets to put a cap on gas and coal prices.
If you had of said we were going to do
that prior to 2022, then some of the commentariat would
(20:21):
have completely lost any perspective at all. We did it firmly, clearly,
because it was in the interests of the Australian people.
We changed our mind for good reasons and explained it
on the tax cuts to give a tax cut to
every Australian. We transformed the first stage of reforms on childcare.
(20:45):
We repaired our relations with the world, with China, with Asean,
with the Pacific Island Forum. We were a government that
were ambitious across economic, social, environmental and international politics. And, uh,
We did it in a way that attempted to bring
(21:08):
people with us wherever possible. I mean, we did to
note just one example in a specific area, the ban
on live sheep export. We were told some that that
would cost us, you know, every seat in Western Australia
and would cost us dearly. The truth is, we've not
(21:29):
only held every seat with increased margins, most of them
are in WA. We've won Bullwinkle and have won more.
People said that was a high watermark for labor in WA. Well,
that high water mark just rose. And that was a
decision where I sat down with the industry in my office.
(21:53):
I met people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we
were doing it. We had a commitment to do it.
We carried it out and we won. the argument, if
you like, and we have a package to bring people
with us, and hopefully now people will say, okay, this
transition is going to occur, how do we protect people
(22:16):
as that transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs?
Because you get more jobs from processing sheep meat than
you do from putting them on a ship and shipping
them to the Middle East? How do we get advantage
of that? But, you know, I completely think that, you know,
(22:37):
my government did what we said we would do in
some areas. We went further because circumstances changed, like the
cap on gas and coal prices. But my government is
also determined to look at what it was that we
took to the election on May 3rd and to set
(22:58):
about implementing that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
S2 (23:03):
Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
the lead up to the election?
S3 (23:17):
Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
S2 (23:20):
Interested in your opinion.
S3 (23:21):
To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
would occur.
S1 (23:32):
Um, and your expectations as well?
S3 (23:34):
Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
There is no time where I said anything different privately
from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
(23:56):
for those people who said that was playing mind games.
I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
France can win this seat. I think she will win
this seat. And she did.
S1 (24:12):
And those words on the day. So I'll put my
hand up on that one. And you told me I
was silly on the day. Yeah.
S3 (24:17):
Well, you know, see, I was very direct.
S2 (24:19):
One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
was out to get you. Do you think they were
out to get you in that campaign?
S3 (24:31):
Well, I didn't I didn't say that. Um, but look,
people will make up their own judgment as to what
some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
(24:52):
my job is to do is to go out there
and put forward Labor's positive agenda. And I think as
well that people if there is a consistent view coming
through and people can have a look themselves at what
the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
(25:15):
they take that into account. I think they know that
that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
(25:36):
known each other for some time. Uh, when I came into, uh,
this building, I didn't come here with an expectation of
being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps not having that
sense of destiny has been one of the things that
was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number of people, uh,
(25:57):
in the media said to me, you look like you're
enjoying it. And, yeah, I was, uh, I loved the
campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's an opportunity
to talk to the Australian people about their future. And
now our task is to make sure that we deliver
on that better future. I think that the policies that
(26:19):
we've put forward across the board are. About that, and
I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to be
able to deliver it.
S2 (26:27):
Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
appreciate your time.
S3 (26:33):
Thanks very much.
S1 (26:38):
Today's episode was produced by Julia Carcasole with technical assistance
from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
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To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Paul Circle, thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Paul Satchell, filling in for
Jacqueline Maley. It's Thursday, May 15th. Today we bring you
a very special episode with the newly elected Prime Minister
of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Chief political correspondent David Crowe and
I speak to the prime minister about his new labor cabinet,
(00:22):
his thumping mandate, plans for the term ahead and a
new phrase the prime minister's trying out progressive patriotism.
S2 (00:30):
Our guest today is the prime minister, Anthony Albanese. Thank
you for having time to talk to us. Good to
be here. And so soon after the the formation of
your new ministry. And just as you head off on
some important overseas travel. Many things to talk about. I
thought we would start with one of the things that
(00:52):
you're heading overseas for, which is for the inaugural mass
for Pope Leo in Rome. You mentioned this this week
as an important moment for you to go and meet
world leaders, but it also has an important aspect of faith.
And you were raised a Catholic. Catholicism was important to
your mother in her life, and I wanted to ask
about that as an opening question. How important is your
(01:15):
faith in what you do in your job as Prime Minister?
S3 (01:19):
I think these issues are a matter of your own
development as well, and it's a part of who I
am my upbringing. During the campaign, one of the statements
I made that resonated indeed during the channel nine debate
was that kindness isn't weakness, and that really is something
(01:40):
that's a part of how I was raised in the
Catholic faith about having compassion and kindness for people, particularly
vulnerable people. I believe in a separation of church and state.
So I choose, for example, today I've always chosen to
do an affirmation because I think that as the Australian
(02:02):
Prime Minister, I represent people of every faith and no faith.
And so that for me, that's a personal decision. Other
people who swear on the Bible or the Koran in
Ali's case, is perfectly up to them. It's a personal choice.
But for me, that's a personal choice that I make
(02:24):
and have made. But I say I was raised with
three great faiths the Labour Party, South Sydney in the
Catholic Church, and it will be an incredible honour for
me to be at Pope Leo's inaugural mass. I have
in my office downstairs a papal blessing that my mother
(02:45):
sent away from for to the Vatican from Pope Paul VI,
who visited Australia, of course, and went to my street,
Pyrmont Bridge Road, Camperdown, because the children's hospital was across
the road. And that was a great moment in my
mom's life. I remember it, uh, very deeply. And I
(03:07):
still have the book that my mom had. All the
memorabilia from the papal visit at that time is one
of my cherished possessions.
S2 (03:16):
There's a lot of cynicism about politics from observers that
don't have a lot of faith in it, but that
does not capture, I think, the entirety of what politics
is about. Do you think that there is a moral
purpose to politics, and how does that guide you?
S3 (03:30):
Uh, I think there absolutely has to be a moral
purpose to politics. Uh, for me, it's about how do
you make people's lives better? Uh, it's captured in a
statement that I made many times during the election campaign.
No one held back. No one left behind. Uh, that
that is a part of our purpose in politics is
(03:54):
to make a difference to people's lives.
S1 (03:56):
Looking around at the caucus last week, Prime Minister, which
was in the building, there are lawyers, there are teachers,
there are multicultural members. There are lots of young people.
It struck me that it is a caucus that represents
the face of the country. I wonder what you think
the election victory and the drubbing that it was, says
about the nature of Australia and whether it, in your view,
(04:18):
proves that in a more cosmopolitan world. Labor is the
natural party of government, not your opponents.
S3 (04:24):
I certainly have depicted labor as the natural party of government.
I think if you look at what we seek to
represent and who we seek to represent, people who are
working people, members of unions, people who are self-employed, people
who are vulnerable and dependent upon support from the state,
(04:49):
the people who many people really need a Labour government
to make a difference to their lives. I think that
our destiny is to try to be the natural party
of government rather than look for dividing people. It's one
of the increasing issues, I think, in the last campaign
(05:12):
was who was seeking to bring people together and who
was seeking to divide people, and that's why things like
culture wars are so unproductive, because they seek to pit
people against each other.
S1 (05:24):
Do you feel like you've you've managed to place labour
at the centre of the political spectrum and dominate the
centre and push your opponents out to the fringes?
S3 (05:33):
Well, we are a centre left government, but we very
much so concerned about social justice. We see there is
a role for the state in improving people's lives, but
we also very much believe in markets and that markets
are a democratic mechanism as well, through the economy of expression.
(05:55):
I believe in a private sector being the key driver
of growth, but the public sector should step in where
there is market failure. I think that during the campaign
as well, we had a progressive patriotism, if you like,
is one way that it's been called. You know, we
spoke about doing things the Australian way, not looking towards
(06:19):
any other method or ideology from overseas to try to copy.
If we get this right, we can be increasingly successful.
I look at the caucus and I have very consciously
tried to bring in to the caucus as well, a
broad range of people from different backgrounds. We are so
(06:40):
much more.
S1 (06:40):
A lot of them yourself. Right. A lot of these
caucus members, you you played a more hands on role
in picking candidates than most party leaders.
S3 (06:47):
Well, I had a focus from 2022 of where are
we going to be at in 2025 and work our
way back rather than just go through. And you've got
to be. It's a bit like, uh, I guess the
coach of a footy team. You don't win the comp
(07:08):
in May or June, you win it in September. How
do you peak in September? How do you get the
right personnel? How do you get the right policies? How
do you get the right framing so that when it
really matters, you can very clearly put your offer to
the Australian people going forward? Uh, that's something that I
(07:28):
did from 2019 through to my first term as, as
opposition leader to bring us into government. It's something that
we consciously speak about, uh, around, uh, the various forums
internal to the party that we engage with as well,
not just the parliamentary party, but the organisational wing as well.
S2 (07:51):
You used a really interesting phrase a moment ago, progressive patriotism.
I'm not sure whether I've heard that from you before.
I'm interested in what you think it means, because a
lot of people regard Patriotism is a bad thing because
it can be overdone sometimes. So were you conscious of
that as a factor through the campaign, and is it
going to be something that guides you now in this
(08:11):
second term?
S3 (08:12):
I was conscious of it, the whole Medicare campaign and
strengthening Medicare. I see that as something that puts us
apart from other countries. It's a health system that says
that whether you're Kerry Packer, a billionaire or myself after
a serious car accident, or my mum and invalid pensioner
(08:34):
who on Mother's Day in 2002 ended up at Royal
Prince Alfred Hospital in emergency after having an aneurysm, you
get the same care. It matters. And that's something we
should be really proud of. We should be proud of
what we've created here. And I think in terms of
the broader global issues as well, that at a time
(08:58):
where there's conflict in the world, where people are often
divided on the basis of race or religion. Uh, here
in Australia, we can be a microcosm for the world
that says that we're enriched by our diversity, that we
have respect for people of different faiths, that we try
to bring people together, that we don't bring turmoil overseas
(09:20):
and play out that conflict here either. And that's really important.
This is a project, if you like, that's not just
about strengthening Australia, but also being a symbol for the
globe in how humanity can move forward.
S2 (09:41):
Susan Lee is now the leader of the Liberal Party
and the opposition leader for the coalition. With something like
40 plus seats, Labour obviously has got more than 90 seats.
So the contrast is huge. Does the government actually need
a strong opposition? Is there a danger in having an
opposition that's too weak? Does it make you lazy?
S3 (10:01):
Not at all. Web focused is what we are. And
we've just had just a short while ago, we've just
concluded the first full ministry meeting. People are hungry to
make a difference. I said prior to the 2022 election,
you couldn't do change in just one term, that I
had a plan for more than one term for a
(10:24):
long term Labour government. That's how you entrench reform. And
that is why so many things that we've set out
for this term were things that built on what we
had laid the foundations in our first term, whether that
be housing, childcare, employment services, so many, the completion of
(10:47):
the NBN, the strengthening of Medicare, the work that we've
done to get the economy in better shape with inflation
going down, but keeping that unemployment low to put us
in a stronger position going forward. Now there are new challenges.
The productivity challenge, the work of reform is never done.
(11:08):
But my team are really enthusiastic. They've been, I think,
re-energized by not just the election campaign, but the outcome
as well. And they feel that sense of obligation, that
getting that trust of the Australian people in us has
given them.
S2 (11:28):
What do you think of the observation that's been made
by commentators that you're now a certainty for three terms
because of the size of the number of seats that
you got in Parliament, that you can not just have
this term, but the next one as well.
S3 (11:39):
Look, politics changes from day to day, and you cannot
take anything for granted. And some of those same people
were writing us off six months ago. I've always been focused.
I've been determined. I was clear about the objective that
we had for a may election and that we could
(12:02):
be successful, and we put those measures in place and
we received the support of the Australian people. I want
to get our primary vote up higher at the next
election than we did this time. But if you look
at the work that we've done, it is significant that
over a period of time it had been dropping. We
(12:23):
did turn that around and that's a very positive thing.
And the outcome clearly exceeded the expectations of all of
the commentators, I think. And, you know, we we therefore
regard the commentariat as that's their job. Our job is
(12:45):
to be a good government.
S2 (12:47):
Did it exceed your expectations?
S3 (12:48):
I expected us to win a majority government the whole
way through. I responded patiently to the number of times
I was asked about negotiations, assuming a minority government. I
never saw that as what the outcome would be the
outcome when you're when you're putting together an expectation, if
(13:10):
you like, you think, well, we might win here, here,
here and here. But chances are you don't get all
of that. The truth is, we did. You look at
the seats that I went to that I thought we'd win. Uh, bass. Braddon. Dixon. Brisbane. Griffith. Banks.
S1 (13:29):
Can I just ask.
S3 (13:30):
Bullwinkel.
S1 (13:31):
On those seats? Prime Minister, sorry to interrupt you. One
of your ministers said that when you would talk about
those seats during the tougher periods of the term, some
of your colleagues would politely nod along and think, does
this guy really believe what he's saying? Did you believe
it the whole way along? You bet. People might have
called you delusional. Why did you believe it?
S3 (13:47):
The evidence is there because I thought we had the
right policies. I think that the, uh, the whole way through,
I also saw that I know what it takes to
take an opposition into the government. I did serious policies,
fully costed in budget replies. I did serious speeches, a
(14:10):
series of vision statements. I went to the National Press
Club regularly. I did press conferences regularly, I was accountable,
we did hard work and I didn't see the opposition
doing laying that groundwork that you need and thought they
would be very, very vulnerable during an election campaign. I
(14:31):
unusually agreed to four debates. Some in my own team
said that was crazy brave. I think it was the
right thing to do. Went to the National Press Club.
I did all of that. And I also thought that
the Greens political party were vulnerable. I saw that in
(14:51):
my local community that they had lost their way in
blocking Labor's housing reforms and not being a party which
concentrated on the environment and on issues that mattered most
to people.
S1 (15:07):
Just on the on the size of the win, Prime Minister,
do you feel a sense of and I think there's
an element of this in the progressive patriotism as well.
I think Trump allowed you to project as a centre
left leader that sense of patriotism that's so often dominated
by the right, which was lucky in one sense because
no one expected Trump to come around. Do you feel
that the combination of Trump and Dutton was the best
bit of luck you could have ever got? And is
(15:29):
there a chance that we're overanalyzing the Labour win? Because
the strength of the negative that Trump gave to Dutton
and Dutton's own performance actually handed you the win?
S3 (15:38):
No, I think that, uh, some of the commentariat have, uh,
looked for reasons why their commentary was so out of
touch last year.
S1 (15:49):
In the media.
S3 (15:50):
Yeah. And I think that a government that in, uh,
serious polls was always in, you know, a pretty good
position for a government if you look historically in Australia
for polls that have been around for a long period
of time, like Newspoll, we were in a worst case scenario,
(16:12):
we're on 49 is going into an election is a
strong position for a government. You know, if you're in
trying to get to government, you've got to have a narrative,
an offer. We had as well, I think, a record
(16:34):
that we were proud of that we could talk about,
that people could recognise. The Australian people have done it
tough over Covid under the former government, and then that
due to supply chain issues and a range of things,
including international factors, led to cost of living pressures. People
(16:54):
know that we were trying to do something about it.
Peter Dutton opposed all of those measures and we had
got inflation down, interest rates starting to fall. Real wages
up and employment was strong. There are a set of
economic numbers that are the envy of other parts of
(17:16):
the industrialized world. So we had a good story to tell.
We've done that whilst at the same time doing major reform.
The aged care reforms are the biggest reforms this century.
The clean energy transformation, what we're doing on a future
made in Australia, the childcare reforms, the completion of the
National Broadband Network, the rolling out of infrastructure projects. We
(17:41):
had done a pretty comprehensive plan across the range of
portfolios that were there, but we also had the forward
offer that we started to roll out, uh, from last
November with the free TAFE extension, with the 20% cut
in student debt, and then had a series of major announcements,
(18:05):
including the most significant of which was strengthening Medicare that
we did in Launceston in the electorate of bass. And
so we had a very clear plan. I outlined that
to colleagues. I also outlined where it would be successful.
It's no accident. The major announcements that we made prior
(18:26):
to the election were being called. Were in Sturt, in Griffith,
in Bass. That's where we were thinking that we could
be positive in and seats like Braddon. There's no doubt
in my mind that if Anne Urquhart doesn't agree to be.
(18:47):
Incredibly generous in leaving a Senate spot which she wasn't
even up for election on, to risk running for a
seat where Labour was on 42% at the last election.
She could win that seat and she did with, the
largest swing in the country, 15%.
S2 (19:06):
We have some other questions about commentators a bit later.
But first up on the mandate on what this election
means for you, you've made commitments about what you'll do,
but how much flexibility does that give you in being
bold on reform, on things like productivity? And the context
for that question is one of the remarks that Ed Husic,
the outgoing industry minister, made where he mentioned the timidity
(19:29):
of the first term. Do you accept that there was
some caution in that first term, even timidity in the
way that you approached some of these big policy questions?
And will that change in the second term?
S3 (19:39):
I view that we were ambitious in our first term,
that people have completely underestimated the extent of the reforms.
The biggest economic transformation that's occurring since the Industrial revolution
is the clean energy revolution that is transforming the way
(20:00):
that green metals will be produced, for example. There's nothing
timid about that. We intervened in the gas and coal
markets to put a cap on gas and coal prices.
If you had of said we were going to do
that prior to 2022, then some of the commentariat would
(20:21):
have completely lost any perspective at all. We did it firmly, clearly,
because it was in the interests of the Australian people.
We changed our mind for good reasons and explained it
on the tax cuts to give a tax cut to
every Australian. We transformed the first stage of reforms on childcare.
(20:45):
We repaired our relations with the world, with China, with Asean,
with the Pacific Island Forum. We were a government that
were ambitious across economic, social, environmental and international politics. And, uh,
We did it in a way that attempted to bring
(21:08):
people with us wherever possible. I mean, we did to
note just one example in a specific area, the ban
on live sheep export. We were told some that that
would cost us, you know, every seat in Western Australia
and would cost us dearly. The truth is, we've not
(21:29):
only held every seat with increased margins, most of them
are in WA. We've won Bullwinkle and have won more.
People said that was a high watermark for labor in WA. Well,
that high water mark just rose. And that was a
decision where I sat down with the industry in my office.
(21:53):
I met people in Kalgoorlie. I told them why we
were doing it. We had a commitment to do it.
We carried it out and we won. the argument, if
you like, and we have a package to bring people
with us, and hopefully now people will say, okay, this
transition is going to occur, how do we protect people
(22:16):
as that transition occurs? How do we grow more jobs?
Because you get more jobs from processing sheep meat than
you do from putting them on a ship and shipping
them to the Middle East? How do we get advantage
of that? But, you know, I completely think that, you know,
(22:37):
my government did what we said we would do in
some areas. We went further because circumstances changed, like the
cap on gas and coal prices. But my government is
also determined to look at what it was that we
took to the election on May 3rd and to set
(22:58):
about implementing that agenda, which is a very large agenda indeed.
S2 (23:03):
Now, we said that we'd ask you a bit about commentators,
so here goes. You said to us back in 2022
that you'd been underestimated your whole life, or you felt
that way. Do you think the media underestimated you in
the lead up to the election?
S3 (23:17):
Well, that's something for commentators to I'm very.
S2 (23:20):
Interested in your opinion.
S3 (23:21):
To commentate on. Well, people, you know, I think that
the result certainly exceeded what some of the commentators said
would occur.
S1 (23:32):
Um, and your expectations as well?
S3 (23:34):
Well, I fully expected us to be a majority government.
There is no time where I said anything different privately
from what I was saying publicly. I expected us to
have an increased majority. That's what I was focused on.
If you have a look from day one of the campaign,
what was the first seat? I went to Dixon. Now,
(23:56):
for those people who said that was playing mind games.
I said to anyone who said that? No. We're serious. Ali,
France can win this seat. I think she will win
this seat. And she did.
S1 (24:12):
And those words on the day. So I'll put my
hand up on that one. And you told me I
was silly on the day. Yeah.
S3 (24:17):
Well, you know, see, I was very direct.
S2 (24:19):
One of the questions about the campaign is whether the
News Corp media were too hard on you. We reported
last year that you told cabinet colleagues that News Corp
was out to get you. Do you think they were
out to get you in that campaign?
S3 (24:31):
Well, I didn't I didn't say that. Um, but look,
people will make up their own judgment as to what
some of the media coverage was, uh, during the campaign.
There is nothing to be gained from complaining about media coverage. What, uh,
(24:52):
my job is to do is to go out there
and put forward Labor's positive agenda. And I think as
well that people if there is a consistent view coming
through and people can have a look themselves at what
the editorials recommended, for example, then people will say, yep,
(25:15):
they take that into account. I think they know that
that's the case. And so my focus is, uh, on just, uh,
us implementing our positive agenda. I feel incredibly humbled and
privileged to have this position. Uh, you and I have
(25:36):
known each other for some time. Uh, when I came into, uh,
this building, I didn't come here with an expectation of
being prime minister. I think, uh, perhaps not having that
sense of destiny has been one of the things that
was helpful during the campaign. Uh, a number of people, uh,
(25:57):
in the media said to me, you look like you're
enjoying it. And, yeah, I was, uh, I loved the
campaign because people are engaged and focused. It's an opportunity
to talk to the Australian people about their future. And
now our task is to make sure that we deliver
on that better future. I think that the policies that
(26:19):
we've put forward across the board are. About that, and
I think we have the incredibly strong personnel to be
able to deliver it.
S2 (26:27):
Prime Minister, thank you very much for having some time
to talk to us on the Inside Politics podcast. We
appreciate your time.
S3 (26:33):
Thanks very much.
S1 (26:38):
Today's episode was produced by Julia Carcasole with technical assistance
from Zack de Silva. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills,
and Tom McKendrick is head of audio. To listen to
our podcast as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you listen to your podcasts.
To support our journalism, subscribe to us by visiting The
Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe. I'm Paul Circle, thanks for listening.
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