October 21, 2025 • 21 mins
It was the meeting that has been hanging over our prime minister’s head for nine months. But Anthony Albanese’s face-to-face with Donald Trump, on Tuesday morning Australian time, was never going to be easy.
It wasn’t just the presence of our American ambassador, Kevin Rudd, who once called Trump a “village idiot” and a “traitor to the West”. But how would Albanese handle the most mercurial of world leaders?
Today, North America correspondent Michael Koziol, who was in the White House with Trump and Albanese, on what Australia gained, or lost, from this meeting. And his first-hand account of what it’s like to be told off by the American president, in front of the world.
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S1 (00:03):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris. It
was the meeting that has been hanging over our Prime
minister's head for nine months. But Anthony Albanese's face to
face with Donald Trump on Tuesday morning, Australian time was
(00:24):
never going to be easy. It wasn't just the presence
of our American ambassador, Kevin Rudd, who once called Trump
a village idiot and a traitor to the West. But
how would Albanese handle the most mercurial of world leaders today?
North America correspondent Michael Koziol, who was in the white
House with Trump and Albanese on what Australia gained or
(00:46):
lost from this meeting, and his first hand account of
what it's like to be told off by the American
president in front of the world. So, Michael, take us
into the Cabinet Room in the white House during this
meeting because not only were you there, but you copped
(01:06):
a serve from the American president. So what's it like
getting told off by Trump in front of the world?
And how did our Prime Minister react when Trump also
threw a jibe at our American ambassador, Kevin Rudd?
S2 (01:19):
Look, I must say, it actually didn't bother me very
much at all. You know, look, Donald Trump does this
all the time. I've seen it happen to people standing
next to me and around me countless times.
S3 (01:31):
In the first term.
S4 (01:33):
Where do you come from? I'm from Australia. Who are
you with? The Sydney Morning Herald. Nasty guy. Go ahead. Oh, sorry.
I'm just trying to ask a question on your. In
your first term, you worked with two Australian Prime Minister
Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull. You might remember they were
from same side of politics.
S2 (01:49):
I was a little bit confused about why he decided
that I was a nasty guy. Uh, but perhaps I
was being a little bit loud or aggressive trying to
get another question in. You kind of have to be
in those situations, otherwise you're not going to get in.
So maybe that's what he took objection to. I don't know,
but look, you know, he ended up taking the question.
So as far as I'm concerned, it's all good. I
(02:11):
don't have a problem with it. So it was an
interesting dynamic in the room. You know, we saw it
multiple times, not just with, you know, me, but another
Australian reporter who was criticized by the president, you would say,
or abused, some might say. He said, you know, you
don't know anything about Ukraine. You don't know anything about Russia.
She protested that she very much did. So he's someone who,
(02:33):
you know, as we've all seen over the years, is
very confident in saying what he thinks about the media
and using the power of the office to kind of
intimidate journalists. And that was very evident today. Look, I
think you'd have to say this meeting went incredibly well with,
of course, the exception that you mentioned earlier, the awkward
moment with Kevin Rudd. It you know, I think the
(02:55):
funniest if I can use that word moment about or
part of that whole interaction was when Donald Trump was
being asked, you know, it's been a long wait for
this meeting. Nine months. Uh, has that got anything to
do with, you know, the comments that were made by
Kevin Rudd long ago, since deleted tweets, which we know about,
that Donald Trump didn't know anything about them or said
(03:19):
he didn't know anything about them. Uh, and then was
asking about, you know, oh, this ambassador who's made these comments,
is he still around? What's he doing now? Obvious to
everyone else in the room that Kevin Rudd was sitting
directly in front of him, but Trump, completely oblivious to
that fact, which kind of made the comedy the farce
(03:39):
of that incredible encounter.
S5 (03:43):
Go ahead. Mr. president, there's been concern in Australia that
it's taken nine months to get this meeting. Have you
had any concerns with this administration, with the stance on Palestine,
climate change or even things the ambassador said about you
in the past? The Australian ambassador.
S6 (03:57):
I don't know anything about him. I mean, he said
back then, maybe he'll like to apologize. I really don't know.
Did an ambassador say something bad about me? Don't tell me,
I don't know. Where is he? Is he still working
for you? Yeah. You said bad.
S5 (04:14):
Before I took this position, Mr. President.
S6 (04:16):
I don't like you either. I don't, and I probably
never will. Go ahead.
S2 (04:23):
Look, it was obviously humiliating for Kevin Rudd. Um, Albo
and Rudd, I think, handled it very well. And I
was lucky enough to be standing right behind Kevin Rudd
during this meeting. And so I was one of those people,
as the question was being asked by the reporter standing
next to me thinking, oh my God, here we go. Uh,
and then realizing that Donald Trump was starting to lay
(04:46):
into this guy without realizing that he was in the room.
And you sort of wanted to be like, hey, look,
he's he's right there. He's in he's in front of you. Um, which,
of course, the president eventually, um, cottoned on to. I
almost wanted to, uh, I was kind of trying to
peer down and see the look on Rudd's face while
Trump was saying this, but I ended up seeing some
(05:07):
of the other footage from taken from a different angle,
where you could see Rudd kind of having to awkwardly smile.
But to his credit, he did put his hand up
and kind of say, yep, yep, yep, that was me. Um,
fair cop, Mr. President. Look, it was interesting. It's sort
of hard to know exactly what to make of it
because Trump obviously what he said was, you know, well,
I don't like you either, and I probably never will.
(05:28):
It was a bit hard to gauge from his tone
whether he was being serious or whether he was, uh,
speaking in jest. I've seen Penny Wong say it was
clearly in jest, and we've heard from people in the
room on the Australian side afterwards that Donald Trump then
kind of circled back to Rudd and said, it's fine,
all's forgiven. Uh, and Rudd again apologized. I'm sorry, Mr. President,
(05:51):
but it wouldn't surprise me at all, because we know
that Donald Trump has the capacity to forgive people who've
made disparaging comments about him, because plenty of them, they
were in that room. JD J.D. Vance has compared Trump
to Hitler and is now the vice president. You know,
Marco Rubio has said disparaging things about Donald Trump, and
he was in the room today. So it's not like
Donald Trump can't forgive people. And I think if we're
(06:13):
told that all is forgiven and all's fine, then it
must be. And you know what? At the end of
the day, the meeting was very successful. So it doesn't
really matter in the scheme of things.
S1 (06:22):
Well, let's get into the substance of like you say,
it's a long awaited meeting. They were meant to meet
in June and then in September, and Trump pulled out
of both. So obviously, you know, there was a lot
of build up to this. The opposition has used this
to hammer Albanese as proof that he's been an ineffective
prime minister. So was the meeting worth the wait? You know,
what did Albanese get out of it? Let's start off
(06:43):
with the rare earths deal that the pair have inked.
S2 (06:46):
Albanese would unquestionably say it was worth the wait. He
achieved everything that he wanted to achieve out of this meeting.
They signed the rare Earths deal, uh, which, look, you know, um,
it was about five months in the making. I think
the government clearly, uh, believed that it was very likely
to be signed. Um, I'm not quite sure whether we
(07:06):
should read into the change of location for the meeting.
Of course, it was originally going to be in the
Oval Office. Then it was changed to the Cabinet Room.
There's some suggestion that it was changed to the Cabinet
Room to make the signing easier. Uh, and so perhaps
the deal wasn't, you know, necessarily confirmed until the very
last moment. But, you know, whatever the timing was, uh,
(07:29):
they got it done. Uh, it's a very big deal.
About 13 billion AUD, uh, of projects that are supposedly
in the pipeline. Uh, under this deal, both countries are
going to put in, uh, 1 billion USD in the
next six months. Uh, so that's 1.5 billion Australian. Uh,
the Australian government has already identified two major projects that
(07:50):
it's going to get off the ground under this deal.
One in Western Australia, one in the Northern Territory. Look,
you know, what they signed today was a framework. It
was two pages. So in some ways that's a bit thin.
But clearly there are specifics to this deal that are
already well in train. It's not pie in the sky.
It's reality. Uh, and we know that Australia has these minerals.
(08:11):
We know that we have the capacity to start refining
and processing these minerals. Uh, and it now seems, you know,
both Australia and the US are on board with this
idea that, uh, the refinement and processing of critical minerals
must be diversified away from China and that Australia is
going to be a key part of making that change.
S1 (08:31):
Okay. So that part of it sounds like it's clearly
a good deal for both sides, because for the US,
it ensures a steady supply of critical minerals to them.
At a time when China is trying to tighten its
control over global supply. And then, of course, it's going
to pump money into our side of things. So we'll
start being able to process the rare earths, which obviously
is something that we have sort of failed to do
(08:51):
really on a large scale for a long time. Let's
talk about what the American president said about Aukus. Obviously,
it's our multi-billion dollar nuclear powered submarine pact with the
US and the UK. So what did Trump say?
S2 (09:04):
Well, it was really the first time that Trump has
ever said anything substantial about Aukus. He sort of nodded
along when Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, talked about
it in Canada. But he's never really said anything publicly.
Today we heard for the first time that Donald Trump
supports Aukus. In fact, he wants it to go faster. Um,
and I asked him the first question that he took.
S4 (09:26):
The oldest submarine. Aukus defence pact of the Prime Minister
just mentioned. It is a critical issue for Australia. Yes.
You haven't really spoken much about it publicly. It was
a deal that was done under Joe Biden to sell
submarines to Australia. At a time when you're not really
making enough for your own needs. So can you tell us, uh,
have you gotten across the details of the deal? Do
(09:48):
you support it, and will you honour it?
S6 (09:49):
It was made a while ago, and nobody did anything
about it, and it was going too slowly. We do
actually have a lot of submarines. We have the best
submarines in the world, anywhere in the world, and we're
building a few more. Currently under construction and now we're starting.
We have it all set with Anthony. We've worked on
this long and hard, and we're starting that process right now.
(10:12):
And it's I think it's really moving along very rapidly,
very well.
S2 (10:17):
And he had the Navy Secretary, John Phelan, uh, at
the table as well, who essentially said the same thing.
There were a couple of, uh, uh, sort of issues.
You know, Trump described them as minor details that still
need to be sorted out. Um, but that basically, uh,
it was full steam ahead. Those were Trump's words with
the Yorkist deal. And, you know, I mean, that's got
(10:37):
to be massively reassuring to the Australian government, which has
put all its eggs in the Aukus basket. There's a
lot of, you know, divided opinion out there about whether
it's a good idea or not. But that's the decision
that has been made. And it's now very clear that,
you know, whatever happens with this Pentagon review, which is
going on, uh, the Trump administration is firmly committed to Aukus.
S1 (10:59):
Well, it's interesting because elbows copped a lot of flak
for this deal from many commentators, including our former prime
minister Malcolm Turnbull. He's obviously no fan of the deal.
He has said that these subs might never arrive and
there's certainly some substance to that argument. You know, after all,
there is a clause in the agreement that says that
the US will be prohibited from selling us these subs
if it weakens American naval strength. And a lot of
(11:21):
people think, you know it will in future, they won't
even have enough subs for themselves, let alone to sell
to us. But does this maybe signal, like Trump's, you know,
go go attitude on this? Does it signal that maybe
Aukus will actually move faster than expected? You know, might
this mean that we get these nuclear powered subs before 2032,
which is when they're scheduled to arrive?
S2 (11:42):
I think that's highly unlikely, because it would require such
a drastic improvement in the rate of ship building in
the US. You know, the current rate is about 1.2
of these submarines a year. It needs to get up
to two, if not two and a third, uh, submarines
being built every year for the US to really be
in a strong position to fulfill its aukus obligations, and
(12:05):
at the moment, the workforce is just not there. They're
going to have to hire so many more people, invest
so much more money. Some of that money is starting
to come through. But look, you know, as I kind
of wrote yesterday, uh, Trump can say whatever he wants.
The Americans can say whatever they want. Um, but that's
no guarantee that the boats will actually be available in
(12:25):
seven years. Eight years, whenever it is. If at the
end of the day, um, the US finds itself in
a position where it doesn't have enough for its own needs,
and the president of the day, whoever that is, it's
not going to be Donald Trump, uh, decides actually that
they need to have them, and we just can't afford
to spare any. So that remains a possibility, despite the
(12:46):
commitment to aukus that we saw today.
S1 (12:51):
We'll be right back. Okay. And you said just a
bit earlier in this interview that Albanese would likely say
he got everything he wanted out of this meeting. And
we know, in addition to what you've said about the
rare earths deal and the Aukus support, we also know
that Trump didn't seem to pressure Albanese to up his
(13:12):
defence spending to up our defence spending any more than
we have, which is something that I think people were
on the lookout to see if Trump would do that.
But I do want to ask you about one thing,
you know, did we get any relief on tariffs in particular,
an easing of the 50% tariffs that Trump has imposed
on our steel and aluminium exports, because arguably, Albanese went
with a fair bit of leverage into this meeting, especially
(13:34):
with regards to what we could offer with the rare earths.
So did we get any relief on tariffs?
S2 (13:39):
Well, no, there was no indication of that with the
caveat that, I mean, look, the public part of this
meeting is at the very start. So, you know, what
Trump does is he greets the leader, you know, invites
them in, sits them down, then brings the media in
at the start of the meeting. Uh, and so we
don't really know, uh, what they discussed after that over lunch,
(14:02):
and I'm sure the Australians probably made their case in
some way, shape or form for tariff relief. The Australian
government has been pretty clear. We don't like tariffs. We
believe in more trade, not more trade barriers. Uh, and
you know, who knows? I mean, I think the Australian
government's point of view this whole time has been let's
play the long game on tariffs. Last time, uh, in
(14:22):
Trump 1.0, the exemptions to tariffs on steel and aluminium
came later. So I think they may very well be
hopeful that that happens again. But Trump today you know
I think was playing down the chances of that. He
said well you know look Australia already gets very low
tariff rates. They're very light. They're the lowest tariffs of
(14:43):
any country. Um and that's true. Uh, although Britain in
their trade deal, uh, did manage to negotiate an exemption
on the steel and aluminium tariffs. And that's something that
surely Australia thinks would be within its grasp. So we'll
wait and see on that front.
S1 (14:58):
Okay. So overall it sounds like a warm meeting. We've
come out well from this, which is not a given
with any world leader going into a meeting with Trump.
We know that. But I'm just wondering how this might
leave Albanese geopolitically, because, you know, we know the Trump
camp has said that the world should decouple from China
economically if the country comes good on its threat. That
was issued last week to tighten its release on rare earths.
(15:20):
You know, we all rely on these rare earths for
our technology, for our missiles, for our defense. But obviously,
we are so heavily tied to China economically. A third
of our trade is with China. So did Trump try
and pressure Albanese in any way for us to decouple
or move away from China? Or is there any suggestion that,
you know, that's kind of like in the background?
S2 (15:38):
No, look, not in the public remarks. And I think,
I think in some ways, what Scott Bessent had to
say a couple of days ago was misinterpreted. Um, I mean,
he was not saying that we want to decouple from China. Uh,
he was saying we want to de-risk, uh, from China.
And in many ways, that's what Australia is offering. Uh.
(16:00):
Australia is offering a chance to diversify the supply of
critical minerals by saying, hey, instead of getting them from China,
which has a stranglehold on production at the moment, you
can get them from us. So I think we're doing
exactly what Scott and the US administration wants us to
do by providing that other option. Um, it was actually
almost surprised by how sort of ambivalent Trump was today,
(16:23):
or relaxed rather about China. Um, because he was asked,
you know, in a in a way, uh, aukus is
about posturing against Chinese aggression. Does Australia need to do
more to posture against Chinese aggression? Uh, and he was
very much saying, you know, look, uh, I don't think
we're going to need to because I don't think, uh,
XI Jinping uh, is, you know, he may want Taiwan ultimately,
(16:45):
but I don't think he's going to go for it. Um,
you know, I mean, look, he's spoken similar language to
the way he sometimes talks about Putin. Uh, and, you know,
Ukraine being the apple of Putin's eye. He talked about
Taiwan being the apple of his eye, but he was
very confident they're going to avoid any sort of serious
conflict with China over Taiwan. And as you mentioned earlier,
he was also pretty relaxed about defense spending, saying that,
(17:07):
you know, well, you know, he'd like everyone to do more,
but you can only do what you can do. So
we saw a pretty relaxed Trump today. He seemed very
positive about it. His friendship with Albanese seemed very genuine. Um,
and so, you know, as much as sometimes we like
to find fault with things as journalists, I think it
was very hard to today.
S1 (17:26):
I noticed at one point Trump called PM Anthony. That
was pretty chummy. I'm not sure if that was a
sign of chumminess or disrespect. Albanese was smiling so hard
in the meeting. At some point, it seemed like maybe
he had some sort of permanent rictus. He was even
smiling at some point, certainly when Trump was sort of
pulling up Rudd on his previous comments, you know, calling
(17:47):
Trump the village idiot and so forth. I have to ask,
how did you feel as an Australian there in the
white House? Did you think that Albanese was sort of
sycophantic or fawning because there was a lot of commentary
ahead of this meeting. We know that former prime Minister
Malcolm Turnbull famously six months ago, he said of our leaders,
he said, you know, get off your knees and stand
up to Trump. Be as transactional with America as it
(18:09):
is with us. And remember, in the imperial capital, they
always regard deference as their due. So I guess what's
your last reflection on what Albanese was like with Trump?
I guess that the coziness in the meeting might tick
off people here domestically.
S2 (18:24):
Well, look, he was certainly, um, effusive in his praise.
I mean, he went out of his way to say
to congratulate the president, uh, on his achievements in the
Middle East last week, um, which, you know, is obviously
being tested at the moment, um, with a very fragile
ceasefire in Gaza. Um, but Anthony Albanese, you know, made
(18:45):
a point to, to congratulate the president on that. And
fair enough. We know that's the sort of thing that
Donald Trump likes to hear. Look, I don't know, because
we don't have vision of what was said behind closed
doors over the lunch. I tend to think that while,
you know, the average Australian probably doesn't love Trump. Um,
probably finds his style, um, pretty foreign to what we're
(19:06):
used to and pretty objectionable. I think most Australians would
also say, well, you know, look, uh, we don't love it,
but we expect our prime Minister to do his job
and to get the best deal for us. Um, and
we don't expect our prime minister to be out there
causing trouble in the white House and, uh, you know,
stoking fights and whatever. I think, you know, if you
(19:27):
are a smart leader, you know, you're not going to, uh,
probably be as assertive in front of the cameras as
you would be behind closed doors. I think that's the
point where you say, you know, look, Mr. President, we
agree on these things, but we have a couple of
areas of disagreement. Let's talk through those. Uh, again, didn't
(19:48):
have any, uh, vision of that, but I would imagine, uh,
you know, you're pleasant. You're you do all the things
that you need to do and say all the things
that you need to say while the cameras are rolling.
And then when you get into the nitty gritty in
the meeting, you know that's where you get into the
points of disagreement.
S1 (20:05):
Well, thank you so much, Michael, for your time.
S2 (20:08):
Not a problem. Thanks, Samantha.
S1 (20:15):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
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(20:37):
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your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Sellinger Morris. It
was the meeting that has been hanging over our Prime
minister's head for nine months. But Anthony Albanese's face to
face with Donald Trump on Tuesday morning, Australian time was
(00:24):
never going to be easy. It wasn't just the presence
of our American ambassador, Kevin Rudd, who once called Trump
a village idiot and a traitor to the West. But
how would Albanese handle the most mercurial of world leaders today?
North America correspondent Michael Koziol, who was in the white
House with Trump and Albanese on what Australia gained or
(00:46):
lost from this meeting, and his first hand account of
what it's like to be told off by the American
president in front of the world. So, Michael, take us
into the Cabinet Room in the white House during this
meeting because not only were you there, but you copped
(01:06):
a serve from the American president. So what's it like
getting told off by Trump in front of the world?
And how did our Prime Minister react when Trump also
threw a jibe at our American ambassador, Kevin Rudd?
S2 (01:19):
Look, I must say, it actually didn't bother me very
much at all. You know, look, Donald Trump does this
all the time. I've seen it happen to people standing
next to me and around me countless times.
S3 (01:31):
In the first term.
S4 (01:33):
Where do you come from? I'm from Australia. Who are
you with? The Sydney Morning Herald. Nasty guy. Go ahead. Oh, sorry.
I'm just trying to ask a question on your. In
your first term, you worked with two Australian Prime Minister
Scott Morrison and Malcolm Turnbull. You might remember they were
from same side of politics.
S2 (01:49):
I was a little bit confused about why he decided
that I was a nasty guy. Uh, but perhaps I
was being a little bit loud or aggressive trying to
get another question in. You kind of have to be
in those situations, otherwise you're not going to get in.
So maybe that's what he took objection to. I don't know,
but look, you know, he ended up taking the question.
So as far as I'm concerned, it's all good. I
(02:11):
don't have a problem with it. So it was an
interesting dynamic in the room. You know, we saw it
multiple times, not just with, you know, me, but another
Australian reporter who was criticized by the president, you would say,
or abused, some might say. He said, you know, you
don't know anything about Ukraine. You don't know anything about Russia.
She protested that she very much did. So he's someone who,
(02:33):
you know, as we've all seen over the years, is
very confident in saying what he thinks about the media
and using the power of the office to kind of
intimidate journalists. And that was very evident today. Look, I
think you'd have to say this meeting went incredibly well with,
of course, the exception that you mentioned earlier, the awkward
moment with Kevin Rudd. It you know, I think the
(02:55):
funniest if I can use that word moment about or
part of that whole interaction was when Donald Trump was
being asked, you know, it's been a long wait for
this meeting. Nine months. Uh, has that got anything to
do with, you know, the comments that were made by
Kevin Rudd long ago, since deleted tweets, which we know about,
that Donald Trump didn't know anything about them or said
(03:19):
he didn't know anything about them. Uh, and then was
asking about, you know, oh, this ambassador who's made these comments,
is he still around? What's he doing now? Obvious to
everyone else in the room that Kevin Rudd was sitting
directly in front of him, but Trump, completely oblivious to
that fact, which kind of made the comedy the farce
(03:39):
of that incredible encounter.
S5 (03:43):
Go ahead. Mr. president, there's been concern in Australia that
it's taken nine months to get this meeting. Have you
had any concerns with this administration, with the stance on Palestine,
climate change or even things the ambassador said about you
in the past? The Australian ambassador.
S6 (03:57):
I don't know anything about him. I mean, he said
back then, maybe he'll like to apologize. I really don't know.
Did an ambassador say something bad about me? Don't tell me,
I don't know. Where is he? Is he still working
for you? Yeah. You said bad.
S5 (04:14):
Before I took this position, Mr. President.
S6 (04:16):
I don't like you either. I don't, and I probably
never will. Go ahead.
S2 (04:23):
Look, it was obviously humiliating for Kevin Rudd. Um, Albo
and Rudd, I think, handled it very well. And I
was lucky enough to be standing right behind Kevin Rudd
during this meeting. And so I was one of those people,
as the question was being asked by the reporter standing
next to me thinking, oh my God, here we go. Uh,
and then realizing that Donald Trump was starting to lay
(04:46):
into this guy without realizing that he was in the room.
And you sort of wanted to be like, hey, look,
he's he's right there. He's in he's in front of you. Um, which,
of course, the president eventually, um, cottoned on to. I
almost wanted to, uh, I was kind of trying to
peer down and see the look on Rudd's face while
Trump was saying this, but I ended up seeing some
(05:07):
of the other footage from taken from a different angle,
where you could see Rudd kind of having to awkwardly smile.
But to his credit, he did put his hand up
and kind of say, yep, yep, yep, that was me. Um,
fair cop, Mr. President. Look, it was interesting. It's sort
of hard to know exactly what to make of it
because Trump obviously what he said was, you know, well,
I don't like you either, and I probably never will.
(05:28):
It was a bit hard to gauge from his tone
whether he was being serious or whether he was, uh,
speaking in jest. I've seen Penny Wong say it was
clearly in jest, and we've heard from people in the
room on the Australian side afterwards that Donald Trump then
kind of circled back to Rudd and said, it's fine,
all's forgiven. Uh, and Rudd again apologized. I'm sorry, Mr. President,
(05:51):
but it wouldn't surprise me at all, because we know
that Donald Trump has the capacity to forgive people who've
made disparaging comments about him, because plenty of them, they
were in that room. JD J.D. Vance has compared Trump
to Hitler and is now the vice president. You know,
Marco Rubio has said disparaging things about Donald Trump, and
he was in the room today. So it's not like
Donald Trump can't forgive people. And I think if we're
(06:13):
told that all is forgiven and all's fine, then it
must be. And you know what? At the end of
the day, the meeting was very successful. So it doesn't
really matter in the scheme of things.
S1 (06:22):
Well, let's get into the substance of like you say,
it's a long awaited meeting. They were meant to meet
in June and then in September, and Trump pulled out
of both. So obviously, you know, there was a lot
of build up to this. The opposition has used this
to hammer Albanese as proof that he's been an ineffective
prime minister. So was the meeting worth the wait? You know,
what did Albanese get out of it? Let's start off
(06:43):
with the rare earths deal that the pair have inked.
S2 (06:46):
Albanese would unquestionably say it was worth the wait. He
achieved everything that he wanted to achieve out of this meeting.
They signed the rare Earths deal, uh, which, look, you know, um,
it was about five months in the making. I think
the government clearly, uh, believed that it was very likely
to be signed. Um, I'm not quite sure whether we
(07:06):
should read into the change of location for the meeting.
Of course, it was originally going to be in the
Oval Office. Then it was changed to the Cabinet Room.
There's some suggestion that it was changed to the Cabinet
Room to make the signing easier. Uh, and so perhaps
the deal wasn't, you know, necessarily confirmed until the very
last moment. But, you know, whatever the timing was, uh,
(07:29):
they got it done. Uh, it's a very big deal.
About 13 billion AUD, uh, of projects that are supposedly
in the pipeline. Uh, under this deal, both countries are
going to put in, uh, 1 billion USD in the
next six months. Uh, so that's 1.5 billion Australian. Uh,
the Australian government has already identified two major projects that
(07:50):
it's going to get off the ground under this deal.
One in Western Australia, one in the Northern Territory. Look,
you know, what they signed today was a framework. It
was two pages. So in some ways that's a bit thin.
But clearly there are specifics to this deal that are
already well in train. It's not pie in the sky.
It's reality. Uh, and we know that Australia has these minerals.
(08:11):
We know that we have the capacity to start refining
and processing these minerals. Uh, and it now seems, you know,
both Australia and the US are on board with this
idea that, uh, the refinement and processing of critical minerals
must be diversified away from China and that Australia is
going to be a key part of making that change.
S1 (08:31):
Okay. So that part of it sounds like it's clearly
a good deal for both sides, because for the US,
it ensures a steady supply of critical minerals to them.
At a time when China is trying to tighten its
control over global supply. And then, of course, it's going
to pump money into our side of things. So we'll
start being able to process the rare earths, which obviously
is something that we have sort of failed to do
(08:51):
really on a large scale for a long time. Let's
talk about what the American president said about Aukus. Obviously,
it's our multi-billion dollar nuclear powered submarine pact with the
US and the UK. So what did Trump say?
S2 (09:04):
Well, it was really the first time that Trump has
ever said anything substantial about Aukus. He sort of nodded
along when Keir Starmer, the British prime minister, talked about
it in Canada. But he's never really said anything publicly.
Today we heard for the first time that Donald Trump
supports Aukus. In fact, he wants it to go faster. Um,
and I asked him the first question that he took.
S4 (09:26):
The oldest submarine. Aukus defence pact of the Prime Minister
just mentioned. It is a critical issue for Australia. Yes.
You haven't really spoken much about it publicly. It was
a deal that was done under Joe Biden to sell
submarines to Australia. At a time when you're not really
making enough for your own needs. So can you tell us, uh,
have you gotten across the details of the deal? Do
(09:48):
you support it, and will you honour it?
S6 (09:49):
It was made a while ago, and nobody did anything
about it, and it was going too slowly. We do
actually have a lot of submarines. We have the best
submarines in the world, anywhere in the world, and we're
building a few more. Currently under construction and now we're starting.
We have it all set with Anthony. We've worked on
this long and hard, and we're starting that process right now.
(10:12):
And it's I think it's really moving along very rapidly,
very well.
S2 (10:17):
And he had the Navy Secretary, John Phelan, uh, at
the table as well, who essentially said the same thing.
There were a couple of, uh, uh, sort of issues.
You know, Trump described them as minor details that still
need to be sorted out. Um, but that basically, uh,
it was full steam ahead. Those were Trump's words with
the Yorkist deal. And, you know, I mean, that's got
(10:37):
to be massively reassuring to the Australian government, which has
put all its eggs in the Aukus basket. There's a
lot of, you know, divided opinion out there about whether
it's a good idea or not. But that's the decision
that has been made. And it's now very clear that,
you know, whatever happens with this Pentagon review, which is
going on, uh, the Trump administration is firmly committed to Aukus.
S1 (10:59):
Well, it's interesting because elbows copped a lot of flak
for this deal from many commentators, including our former prime
minister Malcolm Turnbull. He's obviously no fan of the deal.
He has said that these subs might never arrive and
there's certainly some substance to that argument. You know, after all,
there is a clause in the agreement that says that
the US will be prohibited from selling us these subs
if it weakens American naval strength. And a lot of
(11:21):
people think, you know it will in future, they won't
even have enough subs for themselves, let alone to sell
to us. But does this maybe signal, like Trump's, you know,
go go attitude on this? Does it signal that maybe
Aukus will actually move faster than expected? You know, might
this mean that we get these nuclear powered subs before 2032,
which is when they're scheduled to arrive?
S2 (11:42):
I think that's highly unlikely, because it would require such
a drastic improvement in the rate of ship building in
the US. You know, the current rate is about 1.2
of these submarines a year. It needs to get up
to two, if not two and a third, uh, submarines
being built every year for the US to really be
in a strong position to fulfill its aukus obligations, and
(12:05):
at the moment, the workforce is just not there. They're
going to have to hire so many more people, invest
so much more money. Some of that money is starting
to come through. But look, you know, as I kind
of wrote yesterday, uh, Trump can say whatever he wants.
The Americans can say whatever they want. Um, but that's
no guarantee that the boats will actually be available in
(12:25):
seven years. Eight years, whenever it is. If at the
end of the day, um, the US finds itself in
a position where it doesn't have enough for its own needs,
and the president of the day, whoever that is, it's
not going to be Donald Trump, uh, decides actually that
they need to have them, and we just can't afford
to spare any. So that remains a possibility, despite the
(12:46):
commitment to aukus that we saw today.
S1 (12:51):
We'll be right back. Okay. And you said just a
bit earlier in this interview that Albanese would likely say
he got everything he wanted out of this meeting. And
we know, in addition to what you've said about the
rare earths deal and the Aukus support, we also know
that Trump didn't seem to pressure Albanese to up his
(13:12):
defence spending to up our defence spending any more than
we have, which is something that I think people were
on the lookout to see if Trump would do that.
But I do want to ask you about one thing,
you know, did we get any relief on tariffs in particular,
an easing of the 50% tariffs that Trump has imposed
on our steel and aluminium exports, because arguably, Albanese went
with a fair bit of leverage into this meeting, especially
(13:34):
with regards to what we could offer with the rare earths.
So did we get any relief on tariffs?
S2 (13:39):
Well, no, there was no indication of that with the
caveat that, I mean, look, the public part of this
meeting is at the very start. So, you know, what
Trump does is he greets the leader, you know, invites
them in, sits them down, then brings the media in
at the start of the meeting. Uh, and so we
don't really know, uh, what they discussed after that over lunch,
(14:02):
and I'm sure the Australians probably made their case in
some way, shape or form for tariff relief. The Australian
government has been pretty clear. We don't like tariffs. We
believe in more trade, not more trade barriers. Uh, and
you know, who knows? I mean, I think the Australian
government's point of view this whole time has been let's
play the long game on tariffs. Last time, uh, in
(14:22):
Trump 1.0, the exemptions to tariffs on steel and aluminium
came later. So I think they may very well be
hopeful that that happens again. But Trump today you know
I think was playing down the chances of that. He
said well you know look Australia already gets very low
tariff rates. They're very light. They're the lowest tariffs of
(14:43):
any country. Um and that's true. Uh, although Britain in
their trade deal, uh, did manage to negotiate an exemption
on the steel and aluminium tariffs. And that's something that
surely Australia thinks would be within its grasp. So we'll
wait and see on that front.
S1 (14:58):
Okay. So overall it sounds like a warm meeting. We've
come out well from this, which is not a given
with any world leader going into a meeting with Trump.
We know that. But I'm just wondering how this might
leave Albanese geopolitically, because, you know, we know the Trump
camp has said that the world should decouple from China
economically if the country comes good on its threat. That
was issued last week to tighten its release on rare earths.
(15:20):
You know, we all rely on these rare earths for
our technology, for our missiles, for our defense. But obviously,
we are so heavily tied to China economically. A third
of our trade is with China. So did Trump try
and pressure Albanese in any way for us to decouple
or move away from China? Or is there any suggestion that,
you know, that's kind of like in the background?
S2 (15:38):
No, look, not in the public remarks. And I think,
I think in some ways, what Scott Bessent had to
say a couple of days ago was misinterpreted. Um, I mean,
he was not saying that we want to decouple from China. Uh,
he was saying we want to de-risk, uh, from China.
And in many ways, that's what Australia is offering. Uh.
(16:00):
Australia is offering a chance to diversify the supply of
critical minerals by saying, hey, instead of getting them from China,
which has a stranglehold on production at the moment, you
can get them from us. So I think we're doing
exactly what Scott and the US administration wants us to
do by providing that other option. Um, it was actually
almost surprised by how sort of ambivalent Trump was today,
(16:23):
or relaxed rather about China. Um, because he was asked,
you know, in a in a way, uh, aukus is
about posturing against Chinese aggression. Does Australia need to do
more to posture against Chinese aggression? Uh, and he was
very much saying, you know, look, uh, I don't think
we're going to need to because I don't think, uh,
XI Jinping uh, is, you know, he may want Taiwan ultimately,
(16:45):
but I don't think he's going to go for it. Um,
you know, I mean, look, he's spoken similar language to
the way he sometimes talks about Putin. Uh, and, you know,
Ukraine being the apple of Putin's eye. He talked about
Taiwan being the apple of his eye, but he was
very confident they're going to avoid any sort of serious
conflict with China over Taiwan. And as you mentioned earlier,
he was also pretty relaxed about defense spending, saying that,
(17:07):
you know, well, you know, he'd like everyone to do more,
but you can only do what you can do. So
we saw a pretty relaxed Trump today. He seemed very
positive about it. His friendship with Albanese seemed very genuine. Um,
and so, you know, as much as sometimes we like
to find fault with things as journalists, I think it
was very hard to today.
S1 (17:26):
I noticed at one point Trump called PM Anthony. That
was pretty chummy. I'm not sure if that was a
sign of chumminess or disrespect. Albanese was smiling so hard
in the meeting. At some point, it seemed like maybe
he had some sort of permanent rictus. He was even
smiling at some point, certainly when Trump was sort of
pulling up Rudd on his previous comments, you know, calling
(17:47):
Trump the village idiot and so forth. I have to ask,
how did you feel as an Australian there in the
white House? Did you think that Albanese was sort of
sycophantic or fawning because there was a lot of commentary
ahead of this meeting. We know that former prime Minister
Malcolm Turnbull famously six months ago, he said of our leaders,
he said, you know, get off your knees and stand
up to Trump. Be as transactional with America as it
(18:09):
is with us. And remember, in the imperial capital, they
always regard deference as their due. So I guess what's
your last reflection on what Albanese was like with Trump?
I guess that the coziness in the meeting might tick
off people here domestically.
S2 (18:24):
Well, look, he was certainly, um, effusive in his praise.
I mean, he went out of his way to say
to congratulate the president, uh, on his achievements in the
Middle East last week, um, which, you know, is obviously
being tested at the moment, um, with a very fragile
ceasefire in Gaza. Um, but Anthony Albanese, you know, made
(18:45):
a point to, to congratulate the president on that. And
fair enough. We know that's the sort of thing that
Donald Trump likes to hear. Look, I don't know, because
we don't have vision of what was said behind closed
doors over the lunch. I tend to think that while,
you know, the average Australian probably doesn't love Trump. Um,
probably finds his style, um, pretty foreign to what we're
(19:06):
used to and pretty objectionable. I think most Australians would
also say, well, you know, look, uh, we don't love it,
but we expect our prime Minister to do his job
and to get the best deal for us. Um, and
we don't expect our prime minister to be out there
causing trouble in the white House and, uh, you know,
stoking fights and whatever. I think, you know, if you
(19:27):
are a smart leader, you know, you're not going to, uh,
probably be as assertive in front of the cameras as
you would be behind closed doors. I think that's the
point where you say, you know, look, Mr. President, we
agree on these things, but we have a couple of
areas of disagreement. Let's talk through those. Uh, again, didn't
(19:48):
have any, uh, vision of that, but I would imagine, uh,
you know, you're pleasant. You're you do all the things
that you need to do and say all the things
that you need to say while the cameras are rolling.
And then when you get into the nitty gritty in
the meeting, you know that's where you get into the
points of disagreement.
S1 (20:05):
Well, thank you so much, Michael, for your time.
S2 (20:08):
Not a problem. Thanks, Samantha.
S1 (20:15):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(20:37):
visit the page or smh.com.au. Subscribe. And to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris, thanks for listening.
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