July 29, 2025 • 19 mins
The release of images of starving children lying listlessly in their mothers’ arms, in the Gaza strip, has pushed a growing number of global leaders to accuse Israel of breaking international law.
So, is this the tipping point that will end the war?
Today, foreign affairs and national security correspondent Matthew Knott on the plight of Gazans, now. And whether Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu will bow to Donald Trump, who has just said he wants to make sure that Gazan civilians are given “every ounce of food”.
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 30th. The release of images of starving children lying
listlessly in their mothers arms in the Gaza Strip has
pushed a growing number of global leaders to accuse Israel
(00:23):
of breaking international law. So is this the tipping point
that will end the war? Today, Foreign Affairs and national
security correspondent Matthew Not on the plight of Gazans now,
and whether Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will bow to
Donald Trump, who has just said he wants to make
(00:45):
sure that Gazan civilians are given every ounce of food. So, Matt,
let's begin with the latest news, which is just out
the morning that we're recording, which is that Donald Trump
has spoken out against Israel and the harm that is
inflicted on the civilians in Gaza Strip. So can you
tell us what he said? Because it really is, I think,
(01:07):
a break from how he usually supports Israel and Netanyahu.
S2 (01:11):
Yes. We've seen a Donald Trump's interest really, in this
issue wax and wane over the first six months ish
of his presidency. It started off as a big focus
for him. A ceasefire in the war began really on
the first day of his presidency, and he saw this
as him bringing peace to this part of the Middle
(01:34):
East and stopping this war that has gone on for
so long. But then the ceasefire broke down. Israel restarted
the war, and Donald Trump being Donald Trump, his attention
has gone to other issues. He's also looking at Ukraine.
He's very focused on tariffs. He's got a lot on
his plate. The attack on Iran happened. That's viewed as
(01:56):
a success in Washington. But now we're seeing this very
intense focus, not so much on the war itself in Gaza,
but on the issue of starvation, a possible famine, images
that are shocking the world. We know that Donald Trump
is a very visual person. He watches a lot of television.
(02:20):
He's taking in images of the war. And this has
always been the feeling of, would anything get through to
him that would really make him want to stop it.
Now the question is, is that happening now?
S3 (02:33):
We're also going to make sure that they don't have
barriers stopping people. You know, you've seen the areas where
they actually have food and the people are screaming for
the food, and they're there 35, 40 yards away, and
they won't let them because they have lines that are
set up and whether they're set up by Hamas or whoever,
but they're very strict lines. So we have to get
(02:55):
rid of those lines. But we're going to be getting
some good strong food. We can save a lot of people.
I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff,
I see it. And you can't fake that. So we're
going to be even more involved. Will be helping with
the food.
S2 (03:13):
He's saying that very clearly there is starvation in Gaza,
that the whole situation there is a mess. He's clearly
frustrated that it's still going. And the question is, how
tough will he be on both Israel and Hamas in
different ways to try and bring the war to a stop?
S1 (03:30):
And he really was speaking out against Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu, because he has outwardly said that there is
not starvation in Gaza. So can you tell us a
little bit about what Netanyahu and Israeli representatives are saying?
S2 (03:43):
Yes. This is a message that's come out, I think,
at an interesting time from Israel, because we've seen over
the weekend a change in the distribution policy of aid.
We're seeing airdrops. We're seeing these tactical pauses for ten
hours a day to allow more aid to be delivered.
It seems that a bit more is getting in than
(04:05):
the very small numbers that were there before. That seems
to be a reaction to a criticism from around the world,
and perhaps a concession that enough aid was not being
delivered to the people of Gaza. But what Benjamin Netanyahu
has said is that there is no starvation in Gaza.
There's no policy of starvation.
S4 (04:28):
The main thing that I want to stress is the
importance of winning the battle for truth, and that is
a battle that we fought even as we speak now.
Israel is presented as though we are applying a campaign
of starvation in Gaza. What a bold face lie. There
(04:50):
is no policy of starvation in Gaza and there is
no starvation in Gaza.
S2 (04:56):
Israel is blaming the UN particularly and other aid agencies
for not delivering the food and not being willing to
work with Israel to deliver aid. And that's what his representatives,
the Israeli government representatives in Canberra, have said as well.
I was part of a briefing where the deputy ambassador
(05:17):
said very clearly there's no starvation in Gaza. We don't
accept that this is happening. We think the world is
seeing false pictures of what's happening in Gaza. So this
was very striking, not just saying that it's Hamas's fault
or the UN's fault, but really denying that there is
a problem there. And what most people seeing the images,
(05:38):
the reports we're seeing from the ground, and I think
Donald Trump is saying, I'm believing what I'm seeing with
my own eyes, and I want the situation to improve.
S1 (05:48):
Okay. Well, let's get down to what Donald Trump and
everybody else is seeing on the ground and what the
actual reports are of what's happening in Gaza, because we
do keep reading reports that the suffering in Gaza has
reached new depths over the last few weeks, and that
in particular that starvation is sweeping across the area now.
So what are the latest reports that we're hearing on this?
S2 (06:06):
Yeah, we're getting numbers from agencies like the UN in
the past months. The figures are about that. 56 Palestinians
have died of starvation, according to the local health ministry.
And the UN agencies are backing up these figures. We're
hearing about very high malnutrition rates for children, in particular,
(06:27):
who are dependent on formula that needs to come in
through a distribution channels in Gaza. So we're hearing in
particular for children, the situation is terrible. And obviously people
are talking about tipping points in terms of when you
reach a famine, how bad things will get. They're trying
to prevent it from reaching that level. Having followed this issue,
(06:50):
it is interesting that it's coming to such a head now,
and that now is when it's generating so much global
outcry because it was in March at the start of March.
Israel are blocked all aid supplies from going into Gaza
and this continued until May. And so this was a
very dramatic move. It was aimed at forcing Hamas really
(07:11):
into submission because of the idea that Hamas is taking
aid from the Palestinian civilian population, that it's using it
to help its war effort. This was a strategy from
Israel to force Hamas into submission, to force it to
release hostages. I'd say, essentially to starve Hamas out and
other people would have to suffer along the way. This
(07:33):
was the explicit strategy. And in the meantime, to set
up this new method of delivering aid that would totally
cut out agencies like the UN and totally cut out
Hamas and deliver it directly. So it was only in
May that aid started flowing again. But there were obviously
issues of backlogs. You know, during the ceasefire early this year,
(07:54):
a lot more aid had been going in a dramatic increase. So,
you know, you can store some of that up, perhaps.
And what we're seeing now is the long tail of
that decision. And it's that decision that say Prime Minister
Anthony Albanese focuses on. He said over the weekend that
clearly Israel has breached international law here. And what he's
(08:15):
focusing on is that decision in March to completely halted.
What we've seen more recently is a much smaller amount
of aid going in which everyone involved from aid agencies
and the UN, Palestinian groups say that it's just not
nearly enough to feed over 2 million people packed into
a very small space.
S5 (08:35):
And do we have any idea.
S1 (08:37):
How little food is actually going in? Because, as you
mentioned there, there's been a dramatic change in the way
that food's going in prior to the cease fire. UN,
I believe, was providing a lot of food. And there was,
I think, 400 food distribution sites that the UN had
run at some point in Gaza. And I believe there's
now only four that has run. I believe it's a
joint American-Israeli endeavor. So do we know how much food
(09:00):
is actually getting through?
S2 (09:02):
Yeah. So it's a big difference. So from those hundreds
of distribution sites essentially where people were living in population centers.
Now these are four main sites in the southern part
of Gaza. So the difference is people are having to
move along way to try and find food. We're all
seeing images of incredibly long lines, of quite frantic scenes
(09:25):
of people trying to access the food. Hundreds of people
have died at. Aid distribution sites seem to have been
shot by the Israeli military. Now, Israel is not really
conceding this. They say essentially they're investigating what's going on,
that their soldiers have fired warning shots. But clearly it's
the Israeli military that's armed in a situation like this.
(09:48):
So it's very dangerous. The trucks going in are much, much,
much reduced from at the height during the ceasefire when
hundreds were going in a day. It's much reduced from that.
So I think any fair observer would say based on
what we're seeing, it's just simply not enough food to
feed the civilian population there.
S1 (10:12):
We'll be right back. Now, I wanted to ask you
about the global outcry that is really coming, you know,
off the back of these reports and the images that
everyone is seeing about starving and severely malnutritioned children and
other civilians in Gaza. Tell us what Anthony Albanese has said,
because we know that, you know, on Friday and then
over the weekend, he has made comments that have been
much stronger than he's previously made about Israel. So tell
(10:35):
us what he has said and what other world leaders
have said, because I believe people really have broken with
Israel now it seems like.
S2 (10:43):
Yes, this issue really has galvanized leaders around the world.
I would say in a way that the war itself
and the bombing and the terrible destruction and death of
that hasn't. And I think we're getting into more psychological
territory there of why this particularly moves people. You know,
I think the idea of children starving in a very
man made way, the idea that there are trucks and
(11:05):
trucks of aid waiting and children starving only a few
hundred meters away is very emotional for people. And that
really resonates with people. And, you know, even governments that
have been very supportive of Israel are outraged by what
they're seeing, and they're saying it's simply not good enough.
And Australia is very much a part of that. Australia
(11:26):
signed on to a statement with a 27 other countries
really focusing on this aid issue and saying that Israel
has to do a better job, that civilians can't suffer
this much while it tries to fight a war against Hamas.
We then saw Anthony Albanese, at the end of the week,
(11:48):
strengthen his language even further and say that the situation
in Gaza has gone beyond the world's worst fears. A
spoken about how the images are moving him personally. There's
obviously the image that's been very prominent of one year
old boy who has seemed to have serious health conditions before,
and they're worsening because of a lack of access to
(12:10):
formula and food.
S6 (12:14):
Well, it's not just that image, but many of them
just break your heart. That's an innocent young boy. And
for anyone with any sense of humanity, you have to
be moved by that. And you have to acknowledge that
every innocent life matters, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian.
S2 (12:36):
The Prime minister's said, including parliamentary question time, that that's
moved him on a personal level. So yeah, it's galvanising
our leaders from Germany, France. British Prime Minister Keir Starmer
has had very strong things to say, and it's also
coming at the same time where there's a lot of
focus on the issue of recognition of Palestine. So it's
(12:58):
interesting to have these two issues at once, one of
which is very practical and is literally life and death
about getting enough food to people. And then you have
the more high level symbolic political issues of recognition.
S5 (13:12):
And it seems like.
S1 (13:12):
This is a real big geopolitical shift. The fact that
you've got world leaders who are actually saying that Israel
is committing crimes. You know, we know that Albanese has
said that the Israeli government had, quote, quite clearly breached
international law in its provision of humanitarian aid. He said
that over the weekend and a few hours before that,
the Canadian Prime Minister, Mark Carney, also said that the
(13:33):
denial of humanitarian aid is a violation of international law.
And there have been other statements that have maybe not
gone to that extent. But, you know, British PM Keir
Starmer said that, you know, the suffering and starvation unfolding
in Gaza is unspeakable and indefensible. And I guess the
question is, could this possibly finally tip Israel over into
agreeing to a cease fire? Do you think?
S2 (13:53):
I think where we started with Donald Trump, he's absolutely
the key player in every way. And these other world leaders,
their biggest influence will be if they get through to
Trump and help convince him to do something, because the
US is very much the key player here. So he's
meeting with Keir Starmer right now and they will obviously
(14:15):
be talking about this. And Starmer will be trying to
have some influence with Trump. It's really if America's on
one side and the rest of the world is on another,
then in this space it's the US that matters more
because it's the US that provides weapons to Israel. It's
the US that acts as one of the key mediators
in ceasefire talks. We're seeing Donald Trump, you know, is
(14:37):
boasting about how he's achieved a ceasefire with Cambodia and Thailand.
He's apt to bring peace to the world and perhaps
get a Nobel Peace Prize. This is the mission that
he's on. So that's going to be the key thing,
is how much of attention he pays to this. Because
a few weeks ago, when Benjamin Netanyahu went to Washington,
(14:57):
it seemed like a ceasefire was imminent. minute. That hasn't happened.
Israel and the US are blaming Hamas for not being
agreeable enough in the talks that have been happening and
not giving enough ground. So these negotiations are always complicated
and back and forth and get into very detailed issues.
But I think it will all be about how personally
(15:18):
moved and affected and determined Trump is to bring the
war to an end and stop the images that we're seeing.
S5 (15:26):
And, Matt, just to.
S1 (15:27):
Wrap up, and I'm not sure if you'll be able
to answer this, and you certainly don't have a crystal ball,
but do you think that really it would take Donald
Trump denying Israel weapons to end this, and that even
if Donald Trump were to, you know, speak very strongly,
even more strongly, like, you know, you've got to stop
this war. Is there any indication that Netanyahu would be
persuaded by that, given that his reaction to previous American presidents?
(15:49):
You know, certainly Joe Biden, he seemed happy to ignore him.
S2 (15:52):
Yes. If not an explicit threat, then that's always the
implicit threat that the US won't provide as much support.
I won't provide the same support for Israel. Netanyahu achieved
something pretty remarkable by convincing Trump to attack Iran. That
was a huge achievement for him. I think since that happened,
the feeling, the sentiment has been that essentially Netanyahu owes
(16:17):
something to Trump. You know, that Trump helped him. No
other US president had been willing to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.
So does this relationship go both ways? If Trump really
wants the war to be brought to an end? Is
Netanyahu going to do that to help him? The other issue,
(16:39):
of course, is domestic political pressure within Israel. Most Israelis
want the war to end, and they want the remaining
hostages to come back. There's a lot of talk, even
amongst more military experts in Israel and people within the
Israeli military about what is the military goal right now
with the war. Has Israel achieved everything it reasonably can?
(17:02):
This has been a discussion for a long time. Like
what's actually the goal here? And is it a realistic
in any way. So between Israeli public opinion and Trump,
they're the two pressure points for Netanyahu, who could potentially
see this as an achievement if he can get the
hostages back and claim some form of victory. That could
(17:24):
be a good thing for him domestically. It would annoy
parts of his coalition and people who want him to
keep the war going. But that's the scenario there, and
we'll have to see whether Trump keeps his focus on
this issue, or whether he drifts off into something else
and becomes more interested in Ukraine tomorrow. That's the key point.
S1 (17:45):
Well, thank you so much, Matt, for your time.
S2 (17:48):
No worries at all.
S1 (17:53):
And just a note as this is a fast moving story,
multiple news organizations have reported on the deaths from starvation
in Gaza over the month of July. The figures vary.
Our figure was also cited in The New York Times
on July 28th. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was
(18:13):
produced by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by
Debbie Harrington and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills.
Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to
our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning
Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(18:36):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 30th. The release of images of starving children lying
listlessly in their mothers arms in the Gaza Strip has
pushed a growing number of global leaders to accuse Israel
(00:23):
of breaking international law. So is this the tipping point
that will end the war? Today, Foreign Affairs and national
security correspondent Matthew Not on the plight of Gazans now,
and whether Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will bow to
Donald Trump, who has just said he wants to make
(00:45):
sure that Gazan civilians are given every ounce of food. So, Matt,
let's begin with the latest news, which is just out
the morning that we're recording, which is that Donald Trump
has spoken out against Israel and the harm that is
inflicted on the civilians in Gaza Strip. So can you
tell us what he said? Because it really is, I think,
(01:07):
a break from how he usually supports Israel and Netanyahu.
S2 (01:11):
Yes. We've seen a Donald Trump's interest really, in this
issue wax and wane over the first six months ish
of his presidency. It started off as a big focus
for him. A ceasefire in the war began really on
the first day of his presidency, and he saw this
as him bringing peace to this part of the Middle
(01:34):
East and stopping this war that has gone on for
so long. But then the ceasefire broke down. Israel restarted
the war, and Donald Trump being Donald Trump, his attention
has gone to other issues. He's also looking at Ukraine.
He's very focused on tariffs. He's got a lot on
his plate. The attack on Iran happened. That's viewed as
(01:56):
a success in Washington. But now we're seeing this very
intense focus, not so much on the war itself in Gaza,
but on the issue of starvation, a possible famine, images
that are shocking the world. We know that Donald Trump
is a very visual person. He watches a lot of television.
(02:20):
He's taking in images of the war. And this has
always been the feeling of, would anything get through to
him that would really make him want to stop it.
Now the question is, is that happening now?
S3 (02:33):
We're also going to make sure that they don't have
barriers stopping people. You know, you've seen the areas where
they actually have food and the people are screaming for
the food, and they're there 35, 40 yards away, and
they won't let them because they have lines that are
set up and whether they're set up by Hamas or whoever,
but they're very strict lines. So we have to get
(02:55):
rid of those lines. But we're going to be getting
some good strong food. We can save a lot of people.
I mean, some of those kids are. That's real starvation stuff,
I see it. And you can't fake that. So we're
going to be even more involved. Will be helping with
the food.
S2 (03:13):
He's saying that very clearly there is starvation in Gaza,
that the whole situation there is a mess. He's clearly
frustrated that it's still going. And the question is, how
tough will he be on both Israel and Hamas in
different ways to try and bring the war to a stop?
S1 (03:30):
And he really was speaking out against Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu, because he has outwardly said that there is
not starvation in Gaza. So can you tell us a
little bit about what Netanyahu and Israeli representatives are saying?
S2 (03:43):
Yes. This is a message that's come out, I think,
at an interesting time from Israel, because we've seen over
the weekend a change in the distribution policy of aid.
We're seeing airdrops. We're seeing these tactical pauses for ten
hours a day to allow more aid to be delivered.
It seems that a bit more is getting in than
(04:05):
the very small numbers that were there before. That seems
to be a reaction to a criticism from around the world,
and perhaps a concession that enough aid was not being
delivered to the people of Gaza. But what Benjamin Netanyahu
has said is that there is no starvation in Gaza.
There's no policy of starvation.
S4 (04:28):
The main thing that I want to stress is the
importance of winning the battle for truth, and that is
a battle that we fought even as we speak now.
Israel is presented as though we are applying a campaign
of starvation in Gaza. What a bold face lie. There
(04:50):
is no policy of starvation in Gaza and there is
no starvation in Gaza.
S2 (04:56):
Israel is blaming the UN particularly and other aid agencies
for not delivering the food and not being willing to
work with Israel to deliver aid. And that's what his representatives,
the Israeli government representatives in Canberra, have said as well.
I was part of a briefing where the deputy ambassador
(05:17):
said very clearly there's no starvation in Gaza. We don't
accept that this is happening. We think the world is
seeing false pictures of what's happening in Gaza. So this
was very striking, not just saying that it's Hamas's fault
or the UN's fault, but really denying that there is
a problem there. And what most people seeing the images,
(05:38):
the reports we're seeing from the ground, and I think
Donald Trump is saying, I'm believing what I'm seeing with
my own eyes, and I want the situation to improve.
S1 (05:48):
Okay. Well, let's get down to what Donald Trump and
everybody else is seeing on the ground and what the
actual reports are of what's happening in Gaza, because we
do keep reading reports that the suffering in Gaza has
reached new depths over the last few weeks, and that
in particular that starvation is sweeping across the area now.
So what are the latest reports that we're hearing on this?
S2 (06:06):
Yeah, we're getting numbers from agencies like the UN in
the past months. The figures are about that. 56 Palestinians
have died of starvation, according to the local health ministry.
And the UN agencies are backing up these figures. We're
hearing about very high malnutrition rates for children, in particular,
(06:27):
who are dependent on formula that needs to come in
through a distribution channels in Gaza. So we're hearing in
particular for children, the situation is terrible. And obviously people
are talking about tipping points in terms of when you
reach a famine, how bad things will get. They're trying
to prevent it from reaching that level. Having followed this issue,
(06:50):
it is interesting that it's coming to such a head now,
and that now is when it's generating so much global
outcry because it was in March at the start of March.
Israel are blocked all aid supplies from going into Gaza
and this continued until May. And so this was a
very dramatic move. It was aimed at forcing Hamas really
(07:11):
into submission because of the idea that Hamas is taking
aid from the Palestinian civilian population, that it's using it
to help its war effort. This was a strategy from
Israel to force Hamas into submission, to force it to
release hostages. I'd say, essentially to starve Hamas out and
other people would have to suffer along the way. This
(07:33):
was the explicit strategy. And in the meantime, to set
up this new method of delivering aid that would totally
cut out agencies like the UN and totally cut out
Hamas and deliver it directly. So it was only in
May that aid started flowing again. But there were obviously
issues of backlogs. You know, during the ceasefire early this year,
(07:54):
a lot more aid had been going in a dramatic increase. So,
you know, you can store some of that up, perhaps.
And what we're seeing now is the long tail of
that decision. And it's that decision that say Prime Minister
Anthony Albanese focuses on. He said over the weekend that
clearly Israel has breached international law here. And what he's
(08:15):
focusing on is that decision in March to completely halted.
What we've seen more recently is a much smaller amount
of aid going in which everyone involved from aid agencies
and the UN, Palestinian groups say that it's just not
nearly enough to feed over 2 million people packed into
a very small space.
S5 (08:35):
And do we have any idea.
S1 (08:37):
How little food is actually going in? Because, as you
mentioned there, there's been a dramatic change in the way
that food's going in prior to the cease fire. UN,
I believe, was providing a lot of food. And there was,
I think, 400 food distribution sites that the UN had
run at some point in Gaza. And I believe there's
now only four that has run. I believe it's a
joint American-Israeli endeavor. So do we know how much food
(09:00):
is actually getting through?
S2 (09:02):
Yeah. So it's a big difference. So from those hundreds
of distribution sites essentially where people were living in population centers.
Now these are four main sites in the southern part
of Gaza. So the difference is people are having to
move along way to try and find food. We're all
seeing images of incredibly long lines, of quite frantic scenes
(09:25):
of people trying to access the food. Hundreds of people
have died at. Aid distribution sites seem to have been
shot by the Israeli military. Now, Israel is not really
conceding this. They say essentially they're investigating what's going on,
that their soldiers have fired warning shots. But clearly it's
the Israeli military that's armed in a situation like this.
(09:48):
So it's very dangerous. The trucks going in are much, much,
much reduced from at the height during the ceasefire when
hundreds were going in a day. It's much reduced from that.
So I think any fair observer would say based on
what we're seeing, it's just simply not enough food to
feed the civilian population there.
S1 (10:12):
We'll be right back. Now, I wanted to ask you
about the global outcry that is really coming, you know,
off the back of these reports and the images that
everyone is seeing about starving and severely malnutritioned children and
other civilians in Gaza. Tell us what Anthony Albanese has said,
because we know that, you know, on Friday and then
over the weekend, he has made comments that have been
much stronger than he's previously made about Israel. So tell
(10:35):
us what he has said and what other world leaders
have said, because I believe people really have broken with
Israel now it seems like.
S2 (10:43):
Yes, this issue really has galvanized leaders around the world.
I would say in a way that the war itself
and the bombing and the terrible destruction and death of
that hasn't. And I think we're getting into more psychological
territory there of why this particularly moves people. You know,
I think the idea of children starving in a very
man made way, the idea that there are trucks and
(11:05):
trucks of aid waiting and children starving only a few
hundred meters away is very emotional for people. And that
really resonates with people. And, you know, even governments that
have been very supportive of Israel are outraged by what
they're seeing, and they're saying it's simply not good enough.
And Australia is very much a part of that. Australia
(11:26):
signed on to a statement with a 27 other countries
really focusing on this aid issue and saying that Israel
has to do a better job, that civilians can't suffer
this much while it tries to fight a war against Hamas.
We then saw Anthony Albanese, at the end of the week,
(11:48):
strengthen his language even further and say that the situation
in Gaza has gone beyond the world's worst fears. A
spoken about how the images are moving him personally. There's
obviously the image that's been very prominent of one year
old boy who has seemed to have serious health conditions before,
and they're worsening because of a lack of access to
(12:10):
formula and food.
S6 (12:14):
Well, it's not just that image, but many of them
just break your heart. That's an innocent young boy. And
for anyone with any sense of humanity, you have to
be moved by that. And you have to acknowledge that
every innocent life matters, whether they be Israeli or Palestinian.
S2 (12:36):
The Prime minister's said, including parliamentary question time, that that's
moved him on a personal level. So yeah, it's galvanising
our leaders from Germany, France. British Prime Minister Keir Starmer
has had very strong things to say, and it's also
coming at the same time where there's a lot of
focus on the issue of recognition of Palestine. So it's
(12:58):
interesting to have these two issues at once, one of
which is very practical and is literally life and death
about getting enough food to people. And then you have
the more high level symbolic political issues of recognition.
S5 (13:12):
And it seems like.
S1 (13:12):
This is a real big geopolitical shift. The fact that
you've got world leaders who are actually saying that Israel
is committing crimes. You know, we know that Albanese has
said that the Israeli government had, quote, quite clearly breached
international law in its provision of humanitarian aid. He said
that over the weekend and a few hours before that,
the Canadian Prime Minister, Mark Carney, also said that the
(13:33):
denial of humanitarian aid is a violation of international law.
And there have been other statements that have maybe not
gone to that extent. But, you know, British PM Keir
Starmer said that, you know, the suffering and starvation unfolding
in Gaza is unspeakable and indefensible. And I guess the
question is, could this possibly finally tip Israel over into
agreeing to a cease fire? Do you think?
S2 (13:53):
I think where we started with Donald Trump, he's absolutely
the key player in every way. And these other world leaders,
their biggest influence will be if they get through to
Trump and help convince him to do something, because the
US is very much the key player here. So he's
meeting with Keir Starmer right now and they will obviously
(14:15):
be talking about this. And Starmer will be trying to
have some influence with Trump. It's really if America's on
one side and the rest of the world is on another,
then in this space it's the US that matters more
because it's the US that provides weapons to Israel. It's
the US that acts as one of the key mediators
in ceasefire talks. We're seeing Donald Trump, you know, is
(14:37):
boasting about how he's achieved a ceasefire with Cambodia and Thailand.
He's apt to bring peace to the world and perhaps
get a Nobel Peace Prize. This is the mission that
he's on. So that's going to be the key thing,
is how much of attention he pays to this. Because
a few weeks ago, when Benjamin Netanyahu went to Washington,
(14:57):
it seemed like a ceasefire was imminent. minute. That hasn't happened.
Israel and the US are blaming Hamas for not being
agreeable enough in the talks that have been happening and
not giving enough ground. So these negotiations are always complicated
and back and forth and get into very detailed issues.
But I think it will all be about how personally
(15:18):
moved and affected and determined Trump is to bring the
war to an end and stop the images that we're seeing.
S5 (15:26):
And, Matt, just to.
S1 (15:27):
Wrap up, and I'm not sure if you'll be able
to answer this, and you certainly don't have a crystal ball,
but do you think that really it would take Donald
Trump denying Israel weapons to end this, and that even
if Donald Trump were to, you know, speak very strongly,
even more strongly, like, you know, you've got to stop
this war. Is there any indication that Netanyahu would be
persuaded by that, given that his reaction to previous American presidents?
(15:49):
You know, certainly Joe Biden, he seemed happy to ignore him.
S2 (15:52):
Yes. If not an explicit threat, then that's always the
implicit threat that the US won't provide as much support.
I won't provide the same support for Israel. Netanyahu achieved
something pretty remarkable by convincing Trump to attack Iran. That
was a huge achievement for him. I think since that happened,
the feeling, the sentiment has been that essentially Netanyahu owes
(16:17):
something to Trump. You know, that Trump helped him. No
other US president had been willing to attack Iran's nuclear facilities.
So does this relationship go both ways? If Trump really
wants the war to be brought to an end? Is
Netanyahu going to do that to help him? The other issue,
(16:39):
of course, is domestic political pressure within Israel. Most Israelis
want the war to end, and they want the remaining
hostages to come back. There's a lot of talk, even
amongst more military experts in Israel and people within the
Israeli military about what is the military goal right now
with the war. Has Israel achieved everything it reasonably can?
(17:02):
This has been a discussion for a long time. Like
what's actually the goal here? And is it a realistic
in any way. So between Israeli public opinion and Trump,
they're the two pressure points for Netanyahu, who could potentially
see this as an achievement if he can get the
hostages back and claim some form of victory. That could
(17:24):
be a good thing for him domestically. It would annoy
parts of his coalition and people who want him to
keep the war going. But that's the scenario there, and
we'll have to see whether Trump keeps his focus on
this issue, or whether he drifts off into something else
and becomes more interested in Ukraine tomorrow. That's the key point.
S1 (17:45):
Well, thank you so much, Matt, for your time.
S2 (17:48):
No worries at all.
S1 (17:53):
And just a note as this is a fast moving story,
multiple news organizations have reported on the deaths from starvation
in Gaza over the month of July. The figures vary.
Our figure was also cited in The New York Times
on July 28th. Today's episode of The Morning Edition was
(18:13):
produced by myself and Josh towers, with technical assistance by
Debbie Harrington and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills.
Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to
our episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning
Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(18:36):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
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