'Just as political as Conclave’: Choosing the next Pope

Pope Francis, the head of the Catholic Church, has died at the age 88. Francis, who had led the world’s 1.3 billion Roman Catholics since 2013, had been in increasingly poor health and pain.

We are re-publishing this episode, recorded in February, with former religion editor at The Age, Barney Zwartz, on Pope Francis' mixed legacy and the impact he has had on lives, whether Catholic, or not.

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:00):
Hi there. It's Sam here, your host of the Morning
Edition podcast. I'm coming to you on Tuesday morning, just
after we found out last night that Pope Francis, the
head of the Catholic Church, died at the age of 88. Francis,
who had led the world's 1.3 billion Roman Catholics since 2013,
had been in increasingly poor health and pain. We're republishing

(00:25):
this episode that we recorded in February with former religion
editor at The Age, Barney Schwartz, on the mixed legacy
that Pope Francis has left behind and the impact that
he's had on lives, whether Catholic or not. And so, Barney,
since Pope Francis was elected in 2013, I think it's

(00:46):
fair to say he's been seen as surprisingly liberal by
many people. Can you just tell us a little bit
about this and what stamp he's put on the Catholic Church?

S2 (00:55):
Yes, sir. He was he was meant to be a
caretaker pope when he was elected. He was old and
he was frail and people thought, oh, well, he can
keep a steady ship for 2 or 3 years and
then he'll die and we'll be able to direct the
church more in the way we want. Uh, he lived
on most stubbornly and has used his time to make, uh,
quite significant changes, which in my view, are generally for

(01:17):
the better.

S3 (01:18):
Francis is the first pope from the Americas, the first
of his name, and Jorge.

S4 (01:24):
Mario Bergoglio is his name. He's the former archbishop of
Buenos Aires. 1.2 billion Catholics rejoice as the 266th pope
is chosen.

S5 (01:36):
Buona sera.

S2 (01:41):
He has changed the style of being pope. He has
been much more humble, much more populist. He has been
a much less dogmatic and authoritative pope, and his particular
stance is to listen. He likes to work by synodality,
which means listening to the various groups in the church.
And this has led them to be much more compassionate

(02:03):
and open to groups like the LGBT community.

S6 (02:07):
The Catholic Church is entering a new era after Pope
Francis approved priests to bless same sex couples.

S2 (02:13):
He hasn't changed doctrine, but he has recognized that these
are fully functioning people with all the the religious and
spiritual needs of anybody else. He has been much more
open to women and appointed many to senior positions in
the bureaucracy.

S7 (02:29):
Pope Francis also praised the role of women in the
church as part of his remarks on International Women's Day.

S2 (02:36):
He has been much more sympathetic to divorced Catholics. He
has been just in general, somebody who is more open
to different points of view.

S1 (02:50):
But he has actually had a lot of detractors, too, right?
I mean, those who believe that this pope has undone,
I guess, a lot of long standing teachings.

S2 (02:59):
Yes, this is quite curious. We have to be a
bit nuanced here. He's definitely had detractors. But it's not
just conservatives. He was too conservative for the progressives and
too progressive for the conservatives. For example, the progressives had
high hopes that he would make far more widespread changes
than he did. And the conservatives, of course, as you
point out, are outraged that he's open to things like

(03:23):
the considering the possibility of same sex blessings not for
gay marriages, but in other circumstances. Uh, and they feel
that he's, uh, betraying the Magisterium, which is the collection
of teachings of the Catholic Church.

S1 (03:35):
And I believe Pope Francis has also been the subject
of scandals, too, I think, in particular regarding the protection
of favored clerics who were accused of sexual abuse. Is
that right, Barney?

S2 (03:45):
That is true. He's had quite a mixed record on
sexual abuse. He listened to victims. He brought victims onto
the commission that he set up. But then he didn't
act on their recommendations. He had several resignations from that
committee because they felt they were being stalled. There is
indeed a particularly scandalous, uh, cleric who was a friend

(04:07):
of his, who he seems to have protected half a
dozen times from proper investigation and left him in, uh, ministry,
which is an absolute no, no. If somebody confessed to
to just child sex abuse, they must be laicized. They
must be removed from ministry. He has not done that.
He has, um, he has sent mixed messages. Uh, as

(04:27):
I say, I'm a fan of Francis, but I certainly
don't think he's flawless. And this is one area where
I think he has been, uh, really quite poor sometimes.

S1 (04:36):
And of course, the reason that you and I are
even speaking right now is because Pope Francis has been
on and off over the last few weeks in critical condition.
So just briefly, you know, we are recording this on
Tuesday morning and his health is changing day by day.
But what is the status of his health now?

S2 (04:52):
Well, when I looked online half an hour ago, he
had improved slightly.

S8 (04:56):
There is growing concern for the health of the Pope.
Pope Francis remains in the hospital for a 10th day
in critical condition.

S9 (05:04):
Francis is in a critical condition after suffering a prolonged
respiratory crisis. The 88 year old was hospitalized a week
ago suffering from double pneumonia.

S2 (05:13):
Nobody thinks he is going to come back and and
resume a long standing ministry. He's clearly in his final days,
but he his health has improved slightly from the day
before when he was listed as critical. He he was
breathing a little bit better and able to sit in
his chair and do some work. So, uh, it's all
up in the air. But I'm no doctor, but it

(05:34):
seems to me that he can't go on very much longer.

S1 (05:37):
And, Barney, I really want to turn now to just
how much power and influence the Pope actually has. You know,
I'm thinking about what sort of power he might wield
beyond those who are of the Christian faith. But, you know,
even on the world stage, like, what sort of impact
do the Pope's words and decisions have in the real
world on the ground?

S2 (05:56):
Yes. What a curious question that is. Because. Because the
answer is, as always, um, quite nuanced and quite mixed. Uh,
on one hand, uh, very little influence on on secular
politicians in theory, uh, Stalin famously jibed during World War two.
How many divisions has the pope, uh, when he was

(06:17):
trying to downplay the role of Catholics? Uh, and of course,
the Pope had no standing army. And yet the church,
Christians in general, and Catholics in particular, played a huge
role in the collapse of communism in Poland in the
1980s and East Germany at the same time. Uh, the Pope, um, uh,
was enormously important to that, especially the Polish Pope John

(06:38):
Paul II. In the case of Poland, and Stalin might
have been eating his words if he'd still been alive.
So there are certainly real world effects within society. There
is certainly a moral influence, uh, which can be really strong.
And we never feel that more strongly than in, uh,
than in Poland. But it is true across the developing world.
Today with Pope Francis as well.

S1 (06:59):
And there is a long history, isn't there, of this
intersection between, you know, what the Pope might say and
political figures? I'm thinking of Pope Pius the 12th, who
very famously failed to denounce Hitler, even though he knew
about the genocide that he was perpetrating. And so it
just makes me wonder, like, of the impact, you know,
had Pope Pius the 12th denounced Hitler, could he have

(07:20):
arguably saved many Jewish lives at that time?

S2 (07:23):
That's a very controversial subject. Uh, several books have been
written about that. The thought is, if there is a
consensus that Pius is trying to save German Catholic lives
by not taking on Hitler too directly. Hitler had, um,
you know, originally, uh, sort of allied himself with the
church very early on, but by the mid 30s he

(07:44):
was denouncing it and moving against it. The Vatican did, uh,
hide many Jews from the Nazis in Italy during World
War two. Uh, was Pacelli or Pius the 12th right?
I can't say. I really can't say. I would have
liked to have done more. I think he might have
influenced the wider world. I think he might have influenced, uh,

(08:05):
England and the United States to accept more Jewish refugees,
for example.

S1 (08:09):
And I really want to ask you about the conclave,
which is the ritual in the Vatican where, you know,
cardinals from all around the world elect a new pope.
And you are particularly well placed to answer this, because
you have covered two conclaves when you were covering religion
at the age. So is it really as political as
the new film conclave makes it appear?

S2 (08:29):
Yes, it is absolutely as political as the film conclave suggests.
Always has been.

S10 (08:34):
The throne is vacant.

S11 (08:37):
The conclave begins now. We're about to choose the most
famous man in the world.

S2 (08:43):
And the conclave themselves are 749 years old this year.
Since the very first popes have been political. Popes used
to be elected by rulers before conclaves. So often, often
European rulers would fight to have the right to influence
and choose the next pope. Just look at the time
of the English Reformation with Henry the Eighth. How the

(09:06):
Pope was influenced by Philip in Spain to go against
King Henry, which led to the Reformation. That was all politics.
It had nothing to do with religion. The Pope has
always been an intensely political figure as well as a
spiritual leader.

S1 (09:20):
And so can you actually tell us how the voting
works in the conclave?

S2 (09:24):
Well, I can tell you a bit, but this is
an amazing thing. I haven't actually been inside the room.

S1 (09:30):
Well, I believe no one else is besides the Cardinals
and those who are actually involved. Yes, it's highly, highly private.

S2 (09:35):
It's highly, highly private. And cardinals are sworn to secrecy
for life after the conclave. But of course, it only
takes a few weeks before there's plenty of off the
record briefings, especially by Italian cardinals, to Italian journalists. Ah, but.
But as I gather, uh, they, they go in, um,
and they do, uh, secret ballot. And if if a

(09:56):
pope has a two thirds majority, then there will be
white smoke which goes out of the Sistine Chapel's roof,
signaling to the crowd that there is a new pope.
And if there's not, there'll be black smoke. So, uh,
there will be maybe several episodes of black smoke before
we get the white. In 2013, when when Bergoglio became
Francis one, I was sitting in my tiny attic room

(10:18):
in a 14th century palace about 100m from the, uh,
Saint Peter's Square, and I heard a big roar from
the crowd. So I rushed to the window, and sure enough,
there was white smoke billowing out of the, uh, of
the Sistine Chapel's chimney. And so I dashed up to the, uh,
to Saint Peter's Square. And I got there in about
60s and, uh, and it was just a tremendously exciting

(10:40):
and moving place to be at the time.

S1 (10:47):
Do we know any of the particular cardinals who might
be considered to be frontrunners? I guess to be chosen
as the next pope, and whether their political leanings or
interpretation of the faith is conservative or progressive?

S2 (10:59):
Well, as always, there will be candidates from all wings
of the church. This one seems more open than most.
What's different this time is that so many cardinals have
been appointed in such far flung parts of the world,
from so many different countries. Before there were a large
majority or the largest faction was from Italy, and now

(11:21):
their numbers are much reduced. And these cardinals know each
other so little that the College of Cardinals has actually
launched a website to introduce them to each other, so
they can look up the names and learn a bit
about them. Um, which is an interesting example of an
ancient institution using modern means. That website lists 22 people as, uh,

(11:42):
as possible candidates for The Pope. Some of these names
are very familiar from 2013. Uh, there's there's Palin, who's
the secretary of state and has been since Benedict appointed him. Sorry,
since Trump has appointed him. There's the Canadian mark. There's, uh,
Louie from the Philippines. Uh, Robert Farah from Guinea. If so,

(12:04):
if the conclave went really conservative, then Robert Farah or
Raymond Burke from Chicago, who was the leader of the
opposition to Francis throughout his pontificate. They could be possible,
but I don't see that. Uh, George Pell's good friend,
Peter Erdo from Hungary, is a more moderate conservative. If
they go for a more more of a continuation of

(12:27):
of Francis's line, then, uh, Louie from Manila or Matteo Zuppi,
who's the president of the Italian Bishops Conference. They will
be continuation candidates. I suspect a continuation candidate is most
likely because 72% of the voting cardinals were appointed by Francis.

S1 (12:46):
Mhm. And it's so interesting that you say that there is,
you know, significant chance that the next pope will be
sort of a continuation of Pope Francis's vision, I guess,
which has got its progressive sides, because of course, that
next pope is going to be reigning during a tricky
political time. You know, I'm thinking in particular of the
fact that Donald Trump is now American president again and

(13:08):
he is famously quite anti-migrant, anti LGBTQ. He makes decisions
that really go against the environment, which Pope Francis was
also championing, that we treat the environment better. So what
sort of skills do you think the next Pope will
need in this particular political environment?

S2 (13:25):
Well, what Francis, in my view, got right was that
the pastoral role? It is a dogmatic role. He has
to preserve the Magisterium. Uh, but above all, he's looking
after the souls and the interests of 2 billion Catholics
in the world. So I want the next pope to
be resilient, flexible, to understand and honor the Catholic teachings. Um,

(13:51):
some of which, as a Protestant, I don't agree with.
But that's why I won't be Pope. Uh, but I
think he needs to have a light hand. I think
the time at a time like this, you have to
allow people latitude. And that was one thing that Francis
really did. He allowed local churches to govern themselves without
the sort of fell hand of authority, as it happened

(14:12):
before under Benedict, when if a church was seen as
a bit liberal, then it would be dilated to Rome
and disciplined. And Francis didn't encourage that.

S1 (14:20):
And lastly, Barney, just to wrap up, I've got to
ask you how relevant the Pope even is, or even
the role of the church more broadly in the lives
of Australians, especially when, you know, for young people in particular,
many are being absolutely hammered by the cost of living crisis.
You know, their focus would be firmly on how to
afford food, how to make their rent. So is this

(14:41):
even relevant to a lot of people?

S2 (14:43):
Oddly, it's when times are difficult that that religion does
become more relevant. It's booming in the Global South. It's
also growing strongly but quietly in the Middle East. In
the West. It's certainly been in decline, but there is
something of a of a renaissance. Uh, you know, um,

(15:04):
that I'm a Christian, so I'm an adult convert. So
for me, the important thing about Christianity or about the
message of the, of the of Christ is that it's
beautiful and that it's true and that it's good. So
less judgment, more getting involved with people and, and and
if the church weren't influencing society, if all the Catholic schools, hospitals,

(15:30):
aged care facilities, welfare agencies disappeared, we'd be a heck
of a lot worse off. Um, so we still have to, Uh,
respect that, I imagine. The fact is, the strength of
the church, certainly in Australia, is that the level of
the local parish and the local school. Uh, most Catholics
sitting in the pews in Sydney and Melbourne don't really

(15:53):
pay much attention to their bishops, and they don't really
pay much attention to the Pope. It's their local community
that matters. So it's going to be important. Well, he
could be if he if he strikes the right note
for the right chords, uh, as France was pretty much did.
And even though I say Francis did, the decline continued.
So you're quite right to question that. I suppose, though,

(16:16):
that people are looking for meaning and purpose in their lives,
and the church has always been good at offering something
that is not merely selfish or, uh, utilitarian. And I
think that appeal will continue to young, young people are
very interested in justice. They're very interested in doing the
right thing until it's beaten out of them by life.

(16:36):
And we should encourage and applaud that.

S1 (16:39):
Well, Barney, thank you so much for your time.

S2 (16:42):
Absolutely. My pleasure.

S1 (16:52):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our head of audio
is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is a production of
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(17:16):
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I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the morning edition. Thanks
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