July 2, 2025 • 24 mins
It is every parent’s worst nightmare. That their vulnerable child might have been abused at daycare; the very place where they’re meant to be looked after.
This comes after new broke on Tuesday morning that a Melbourne childcare worker, Joshua Dale Brown, had been charged with 70 counts of sexual abuse against eight children, some as young as five months old.
Today, senior reporter Chris Vedelago, on what we know about this case. And early childcare sector advocate Lisa Bryant, on the changes she’s fighting for, and what parents need to know to keep their children safe.
This podcast contains content that listeners may find distressing.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 2nd. It is every parent's worst nightmare that their
vulnerable child might have been abused at daycare, the very
place where they're meant to be looked after. This comes
(00:26):
after news broke on Tuesday morning that a Melbourne childcare worker,
Joshua Dale Brown, had been charged with 70 counts of
sexual abuse against eight children, some as young as five
months old. Today, senior reporter Chris Vedelago on what we
know about this case, an early childcare sector advocate, Lisa Bryant,
(00:46):
on the changes she's fighting for and what parents need
to know to keep their children safe. Just a word
of warning that this podcast contains content that listeners may
find distressing. And an additional note for our listeners. The
charges against Joshua Dale Brown and Michael Simon Wilson are
(01:08):
yet to be proven, and the matters are before the court. So, Chris,
first off, I mean, this has got to be every
parent's worst nightmare. Can you just talk us through how
this case has come to light?
S2 (01:21):
So basically what happened is police believed that they had
detected this this man, Joshua Brown, in possession of child
abuse material.
S3 (01:31):
Victoria Police Sexual Crimes Squad commenced an investigation in May
this year after detectives discovered child abuse material. We immediately
acted and executed a search warrant at the home of
a 26 year old Joshua Brown. As a result, Brown
was charged with over 70 offences which relate to alleged
(01:54):
sexual assaults committed against eight identified child victims.
S2 (02:00):
Who police believe occurred at the Creative Garden Early Learning
Centre in Point Cook, which is in Melbourne's western suburbs.
Between April 2022 and January 2023.
S1 (02:10):
And to be clear, we are talking about babies here.
I believe we're talking about alleged victims who are between
the ages of five months and I think two years.
Is that right?
S2 (02:19):
That's right. The oldest is two years. The youngest is
five months. Um, that in itself presented serious obstacles for
the detectives who were investigating this, because they're obviously too
young to be interviewed. And whatever they discovered on this
gentleman's computer and in his home, they had to basically
reverse engineer that to figure out who the victims were.
This is one of the reasons why the cops sat
(02:40):
on this and didn't go public for about two weeks.
Now there's been some people criticising. They should have gone
loud and early, but realistically they needed to make sure
they knew who the victims were so they could be notified.
The parents could be notified, and also not to create
a panic in the sense that if they had come
out in the early days before they knew who the
victims were. Everybody would have been assuming, if they'd been
(03:01):
at that child care, that their child was a possible victim. So,
I mean, it was it was a necessary move from
their perspective to protect the integrity of the investigation.
S1 (03:10):
Okay. And do we actually know how police have narrowed
down this list of alleged victims to eight children? Because
we know that Joshua Brown, we know he worked at
20 daycare centers across Melbourne since 2017. So how has
this come about?
S2 (03:25):
Basically, I mean, the mechanics of the investigation are still
not particularly clear. But what we know is basically they
they took the imagery that they had found and they
had to effectively confirm visually with who these children were.
They had to work out where where these particular materials
were produced and who was involved in them or when
they occurred. And you can see now that it's narrowed
(03:46):
down to a specific time frame between 2022 and 2023,
although as the police were investigating this, they realised that
this this gentleman Brown, he's worked at 20 childcare centers
since 2017. They're having a really hard look at another
childcare center in the city's kind of north northwest in Essendon. Um,
(04:07):
but the charges, these charges, these charges and these eight
victims relate to just one childcare centre that I worked at.
S1 (04:14):
And so what else do you know about Joshua Dale Brown?
S4 (04:17):
Our reporters who were.
S2 (04:18):
On the ground yesterday at the various childcare centers talking
to the parents. They interviewed a number of parents who
said they they didn't have a great feeling about this
particular person. You know, he was kind of off to them,
but it doesn't appear to be, as far as we know,
anything so significant that somebody went and made a complaint
or they said, I have an issue with this person.
I've seen this person do something or allegedly do something.
(04:40):
Nothing like that. Just kind of like, uh, kind of
general rumblings. They they didn't find him personable or they
found him odd.
S1 (04:48):
And just so I've got the timeline, right. Police took
Joseph Dale Brown into custody on May 12th. And then
it was another two weeks for the parents of the
alleged victims to be notified. And then there was some
more time after that, before the broader community was told.
Is that right?
S4 (05:03):
Yeah. I mean.
S2 (05:04):
Basically they they had identified the eight victims within about
ten days or two weeks of arresting him. They told
the parents of the directly affected alleged abuse victims. Um,
and then from there they decided to to go public because,
I mean, it was going to get out eventually. And
one of the things they didn't want to do was
to cause a panic, because if the information came out
(05:26):
in dribs and drabs, if they hadn't been, you know,
prepared to, to, to, to name the offender, which is
extraordinarily unusual in Victoria. Um, police do not name offenders
in their media statements or at press conferences. It almost
never happens. But this was determined to be such a
public health importance that that rule was effectively discarded so
(05:46):
they could name him. And one of the reasons was,
is they needed to make sure that people didn't get
the wrong idea about other male child care workers that
were working in the western suburbs. So they named they
named the alleged offender. And also they wanted to put
out the names of the child care centres because there's
lots of child care centres in Melbourne's west. And if
they just said, Melbourne's western suburbs, everybody would have been
(06:09):
thinking that their child could possibly evict them. And how
can you know when your child is five months old?
S1 (06:14):
Well, that's exactly it. And so tell us, what about
the parents who have children at these centres, who there's
no suggestion that their children have been abused, but have
we heard from any other parents whose kids go to
these centres where he worked?
S2 (06:25):
Oh, yeah. There's a lot of anger and demands for
how it was allowed to allegedly happen. Um, there's plenty
of people who are upset around the messaging and the
notifications that effectively, they're getting dinged with emails and text
messages at the same time as a press conference. Um,
I mean, it's hard to argue with someone who could
be affected this way. Like, you know, if you're angry,
(06:47):
you get angry. Um, but and a lot of people
are asking how this possibly could have happened, that there's
70 counts, eight victims over a period that spans two,
you know, two years, 2022, 2023, how this how this
possibly was allowed to happen.
S5 (07:04):
And I've got to ask you about.
S1 (07:06):
You know, another part of the story that is really
just sickening, which, of course, is that authorities have said
that more than 1200 children would need to be tested
for sexually transmitted diseases. So can you explain what this
is about?
S2 (07:19):
Look, so basically, there's some suggestion that kids could have
been exposed to an STD of 1 or 2 different varieties, um,
because of what this offender allegedly did, whether that's physical
contact or through cross-contamination is still an open question. But, um,
(07:39):
I mean, 1200 children have been asked to be tested.
So they and in order to do something like this,
the health department must feel that there's a realistic possibility
of transmission between this alleged offender and these children.
S1 (07:53):
And to be clear, I believe this is because the
alleged offender, Joshua Dale Brown, has tested positive for a
sexually transmitted disease.
S2 (08:01):
Yes.
S1 (08:02):
And so, Chris, has there been any other suggestion of
anyone else involved in these alleged crimes?
S2 (08:07):
Oh, look, the cops have been very clear that there
is no suspected involvement of anyone else in the childcare centres.
That being said, we found out this morning that another
person has been charged in relation to this investigation with
45 counts, including child rape and and using a carriage
service to transmit child abuse material. Our understanding is that
(08:28):
he was discovered at the same time that Joshua was.
They are known to each other, but he didn't allegedly
commit funding at the childcare centre. This is a separate funding,
separate victims. But these two people know each other.
S1 (08:42):
And so, Chris, what happens from here? I mean, do
we know if the alleged offender is going to contest
the charges, for one thing?
S2 (08:49):
Oh, look, it's very early days in terms of the
court proceedings. Both of these people have have court hearings
in mid mid September, where we expect to hear a
lot more details about what actually occurred and the connections
between these two people that allegedly exist. But right now
it's basically a waiting game. And the second part of
that waiting game is these 1200 kids being tested. And
(09:11):
whether there's actually a public health emergency here, um, with
sexually transmitted diseases with kids.
S1 (09:20):
I mean, I'm, I'm pausing there because it's absolutely so horrifying.
But and, Chris, you have covered crime for a very
long time. So I know it's early on in the
court process for this particular case, but are we going
to see some sort of reckoning, do you think, within
the childcare sector?
S2 (09:34):
Oh, it's a good question because one of the things
that people have been asking about is how this was
allowed to occur. And I, you know, I spoke to
someone who used to manage childcare centers yesterday and they
said to me, you know, childcare centers are not designed
for privacy. They're open plan. There's sightlines everywhere. There's usually
supposed to be at least two educators in any room.
(09:54):
No one is allowed private time with children, right? You don't.
You don't take a child at a child care center
to the to the staff bathroom. You know, you don't
remove them from the center by yourself. So questions are
going to be asked about how how is this able
to occur on such a scale that it's allegedly occurred
when these are effectively they're public places. Right. And there's
(10:16):
people moving in and out of them all the time.
Staff members like workers, cleaners, cooks. There's going to be
a lot of questions about how this was allowed to occur.
S1 (10:27):
Well, Chris, thank you so much for your time.
S2 (10:30):
Cheers. No worries.
S1 (10:34):
When we return. Early childcare advocate Lisa Bryant on what's
happened in the childcare sector that could leave children open
to abuse. Lisa, welcome to the Morning Edition.
S6 (10:52):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (10:53):
Now, you have worked as a researcher and an advocate
for the early child care sector for a long time.
So I've got to ask you, what was your reaction
to the news of this case?
S6 (11:02):
Look, I was absolutely horrified and shocked, as I'm sure
most people working in the sector were.
S1 (11:09):
And I have to ask you, I mean, how is
it that we've had not just one, but two cases here?
I'm referring to not just this latest one in Melbourne,
but a completely separate set of child sex abuse allegations
against a childcare worker in Brisbane. So what's going on
in the sector that this could possibly be happening again?
S6 (11:27):
I think a number of things are causing it. Primarily
you've got a sector where you've got a huge turnover,
you've got um, over 50% of workers in the sector
have been working in the sector for less than three years. Right.
You've got a highly casualised sector. You've got a sector
(11:47):
where you've got young workers working on minimal pay, minimum wages,
and you've got workers working in a sector that's dominated
by large for profit organisations. A lot of them run
by private equity firms and by corporate listed companies. Their
(12:11):
primary aim is to make money, and making money and
taking care of children are not necessarily on the same page.
And so the things that we do to have high
quality care, which is to have high numbers of highly
qualified staff, are not the same things we do to
make money out of caring for children, which is to
(12:33):
cut wages and to cut the numbers of staff and
to have the least qualified staff. So it's kind of
an accident waiting to happen.
S1 (12:42):
And I believe I heard you say in an interview
that this is actually becoming more prevalent, these problems in
the last, say, five years. So what's happened in the
last five years, perhaps in particular at profit centres, which
is leading to more allegations of this kind.
S6 (12:57):
Our centres are getting bigger and bigger, right. Whereas before
you used to have a large number of really small centres,
you know, 30 or 40 children in a centre. Now
we're having centres. The largest centres are up to 400. Um,
you know, 400 places. Yeah. So when you have 400
(13:18):
children in a centre, it's not the same intimate environment
where everyone knows each other and knows what's happening and knows,
you know, what, um, is happening in the environment. It's
a much different kind of environment. You have people coming
and going, a lot more casual staff coming and going.
(13:38):
These places aren't places that are fun to work. And
so their turnover is a lot higher. People churn through them,
they rely on casual workforces.
S1 (13:52):
So I have to ask you what? I'm sure a
lot of people listening to this will be asking themselves,
which is whether children really are less safe or are
they more vulnerable in for profit centres in comparison to
not for profit centres?
S6 (14:04):
Well, look, the statistics tell us that, um, on the
rating system that happens for all education and care services
across Australia, that not for profit centres and those smaller
for profit centres, the ones that we call mum and dad,
for profit centers that have been held by a family
for years and years are a lot safer than the
(14:29):
corporate ones and the private equity ones. But you know
the sorts of things. If I was a parent that
my advice to parents to look out for is, first
of all, check who owns the service. You know, if
it is one of those smaller for profit ones or
if it is a not for profit, especially the smaller,
(14:49):
not for profits. You know you're probably in fairly good hands.
Check what the rating is. It's not always 100% guarantee,
but it's the best kind of assessment of their quality
that we have. Examine the staff to child ratios. You know,
the ones that run on the very minimum legal staff
(15:13):
ratios are probably not as good as the ones that
are consistently above the minimum ratios. Check the staff turnover.
This is always the really key point. Have the staff
been there for a while? Are the staff happy there?
Don't be fooled by appearances. Don't go for the glossy centre.
That's not necessarily the the best centre. Trust your instincts.
(15:38):
Every parent has great spidey senses. Trust them, you know.
Just really check out how do I feel about these people?
Do I think that they're in it for the right reasons?
If I do. Then run with that. If you're handing
over to an educator that you're not certain about, walk away.
It's not worth the risk.
S1 (15:59):
I really wanted to ask you about about the ratio,
because I know I believe the ratio is that there
be one educator for four babies. I think that was
implemented 14 years ago. But I believe you've also.
S6 (16:11):
Shocking, isn't.
S1 (16:11):
It? It is shocking. It is shocking. I've had three
babies go through childcare and I've dealt with the anxiety.
S6 (16:18):
Four babies at the one time.
S1 (16:19):
I absolutely could not. I can barely handle the three
children I've got. Lisa. But but I do want to
ask you about that ratio, because do you basically think
there should be a change to the law?
S6 (16:29):
Yeah. Look, when that came in, we thought it would
be temporary. We thought it would eventually move to 1
to 3, but under the pressure of the large for profits,
it never was able to move. It should be 1
to 3. But more to the point, when it was
set up as wonderful. It was never intended that you
would have one educator with four babies. It was always intended.
(16:50):
You'd have like, oh, in a room of 12 babies,
you'd have three educators. But now they're actually building centers
where there is one educator with four babies. And that
is not a good situation for anyone.
S1 (17:04):
And this sort of, I guess, hits to the crux
of what I think a lot of parents will be
feeling anxiety about is the problem here that workers had
one on one access to children without other educators present. Like,
is that the problem here? Do you think that should
just not be allowed?
S6 (17:16):
Of course it shouldn't be allowed, but it's unavoidable when
you've got those kind of ratios of 1 to 4.
Like if one person's feeding a baby, another person's changing nappies,
and another person has to go and get food for
the other babies from the kitchen, then you've got three,
(17:37):
you know, educators alone with babies as it is. But
in good centres they tend to have a rule of
you always have to keep another educator in line of sight.
S1 (17:48):
And I really want to ask you about the current
vetting system for people who, of course, work in child
care centers. I mean, is it adequate? Should security protocols
be changed to avoid horrific alleged crimes like the one
with Joshua Dale Brown and others? Because of course, he,
as I imagine other alleged offenders, had no criminal record.
S6 (18:07):
I don't think it's a question of pre-vetting. But I
do think there's a lot of work that can be
done on reporting, making reporting easier for educators if they
have suspicions and being able to report outside of their
center if they're too concerned to report up the chain
of command in their center, having a one instant national
(18:29):
line that they can go to to report, to make
it really easy for them to do that. Um, and
then when when reports have been made and found even
if it wasn't, you know, if someone's been moved on,
then other employers need to be able to find that on.
(18:51):
I'm not saying without due process for someone wrongly accused,
but if someone's let go from one centre and then
is employed in another centre with no knowledge of why
they were let go, then that doesn't work.
S1 (19:06):
Now I really have to ask you a vexed question
that I think a lot of listeners might be asking themselves.
I know it's something I have asked myself when my
own children have been in daycare, and this is whether
male childcare workers should be subject to greater supervision. I mean,
I hesitate to ask this. I have two sons. I
know that most men, of course, do not abuse children.
And yet we have seen a number of cases of
(19:27):
men alleged to have sexually abused children at childcare centres
over the last couple of years in Australia, so I
would love to hear your perspective.
S6 (19:34):
It's really hard one. We need men around children. We
need men providing care And education for children. Almost all
of the offenders of sexual abuse are men in childcare.
Not all educators in childcare that are men are sexual abusers, right?
(20:00):
But because the sector is 97% women, often men are
put on a pedestal. Often men who know how to
groom children are also very good at grooming other female
educators and directors, and so they become their best friends.
(20:21):
That isn't spoken about openly in the sector. Women aren't
trained about that in their training courses. We need to
have a discussion about gender. We need to talk about
what gender it is. That is a committing sexual offences
about children. And we need to have that openly. We
need to have that in childcare, but we also need
(20:43):
to have that in society as a whole. In Australia,
we need to talk about the fact that it's men
that are hurting children sexually much more than women.
S1 (20:53):
A big question, of course, is where do we go
from here? You know, is it an inquiry that we need?
Is it a royal commission? Is it something else? Because
I imagine parents around Australia would just be. I mean,
they'd be tearing their hair out right now.
S6 (21:06):
Look, I don't think we need a royal commission because
in my experience, I'm 62. And in my lifetime, royal
commissions are great for exposing problems, but they're not often
great at causing long term change. The Royal Commission into
Institutional Childhood Sexual Abuse found that most of the abuse
(21:27):
happened in the Catholic Church, but we still allow the
Catholic Church to look after children in early education and
care and in schools. Right. And in our churches and
in other institutions. It would be possibly the easiest thing
in the world for the federal government to say, do
(21:50):
we want to keep funding people who want to make
money out of the care of our children, or can
we change the system? At the moment, we have a
two tier system for education and care. We have one
tier where children are getting the absolute best education and care,
where educators are doing wonderful things with children are really
(22:13):
giving them the best start to life. And another where
children are being cared for by educators who don't really
have it in them to care for children. We need
to rebuild that system from scratch, and I think we
can do it if we have the will. If the
government has the will.
S1 (22:33):
And do you think this might be enough to prompt
the federal government to to make real industry wide changes.
Do you have hope for that?
S6 (22:40):
Well, look, let's put it this way. When Covid hit,
you know, the government looked at our aged care system
and said, we can't have these for profit providers, um,
looking after our aged care because they're not managing it
very well. That was seen as a crisis. If you
have 1200 babies in Australia having STD tests, and that's
(23:04):
not seen as a similar crisis, then what is? This
is a crisis. Governments have to treat it like one.
S1 (23:12):
Well, thank you so much, Lisa, for your time.
S6 (23:15):
Thank you so much for having me. I hope it's
been valuable.
S1 (23:21):
And just another reminder, the allegations raised in this episode
are yet to be proven by a court. If this
discussion has raised anything for you, support is available from
the National Sexual Assault Domestic Family Violence Counselling Service at 732.
(23:46):
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and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
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(24:12):
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the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 2nd. It is every parent's worst nightmare that their
vulnerable child might have been abused at daycare, the very
place where they're meant to be looked after. This comes
(00:26):
after news broke on Tuesday morning that a Melbourne childcare worker,
Joshua Dale Brown, had been charged with 70 counts of
sexual abuse against eight children, some as young as five
months old. Today, senior reporter Chris Vedelago on what we
know about this case, an early childcare sector advocate, Lisa Bryant,
(00:46):
on the changes she's fighting for and what parents need
to know to keep their children safe. Just a word
of warning that this podcast contains content that listeners may
find distressing. And an additional note for our listeners. The
charges against Joshua Dale Brown and Michael Simon Wilson are
(01:08):
yet to be proven, and the matters are before the court. So, Chris,
first off, I mean, this has got to be every
parent's worst nightmare. Can you just talk us through how
this case has come to light?
S2 (01:21):
So basically what happened is police believed that they had
detected this this man, Joshua Brown, in possession of child
abuse material.
S3 (01:31):
Victoria Police Sexual Crimes Squad commenced an investigation in May
this year after detectives discovered child abuse material. We immediately
acted and executed a search warrant at the home of
a 26 year old Joshua Brown. As a result, Brown
was charged with over 70 offences which relate to alleged
(01:54):
sexual assaults committed against eight identified child victims.
S2 (02:00):
Who police believe occurred at the Creative Garden Early Learning
Centre in Point Cook, which is in Melbourne's western suburbs.
Between April 2022 and January 2023.
S1 (02:10):
And to be clear, we are talking about babies here.
I believe we're talking about alleged victims who are between
the ages of five months and I think two years.
Is that right?
S2 (02:19):
That's right. The oldest is two years. The youngest is
five months. Um, that in itself presented serious obstacles for
the detectives who were investigating this, because they're obviously too
young to be interviewed. And whatever they discovered on this
gentleman's computer and in his home, they had to basically
reverse engineer that to figure out who the victims were.
This is one of the reasons why the cops sat
(02:40):
on this and didn't go public for about two weeks.
Now there's been some people criticising. They should have gone
loud and early, but realistically they needed to make sure
they knew who the victims were so they could be notified.
The parents could be notified, and also not to create
a panic in the sense that if they had come
out in the early days before they knew who the
victims were. Everybody would have been assuming, if they'd been
(03:01):
at that child care, that their child was a possible victim. So,
I mean, it was it was a necessary move from
their perspective to protect the integrity of the investigation.
S1 (03:10):
Okay. And do we actually know how police have narrowed
down this list of alleged victims to eight children? Because
we know that Joshua Brown, we know he worked at
20 daycare centers across Melbourne since 2017. So how has
this come about?
S2 (03:25):
Basically, I mean, the mechanics of the investigation are still
not particularly clear. But what we know is basically they
they took the imagery that they had found and they
had to effectively confirm visually with who these children were.
They had to work out where where these particular materials
were produced and who was involved in them or when
they occurred. And you can see now that it's narrowed
(03:46):
down to a specific time frame between 2022 and 2023,
although as the police were investigating this, they realised that
this this gentleman Brown, he's worked at 20 childcare centers
since 2017. They're having a really hard look at another
childcare center in the city's kind of north northwest in Essendon. Um,
(04:07):
but the charges, these charges, these charges and these eight
victims relate to just one childcare centre that I worked at.
S1 (04:14):
And so what else do you know about Joshua Dale Brown?
S4 (04:17):
Our reporters who were.
S2 (04:18):
On the ground yesterday at the various childcare centers talking
to the parents. They interviewed a number of parents who
said they they didn't have a great feeling about this
particular person. You know, he was kind of off to them,
but it doesn't appear to be, as far as we know,
anything so significant that somebody went and made a complaint
or they said, I have an issue with this person.
I've seen this person do something or allegedly do something.
(04:40):
Nothing like that. Just kind of like, uh, kind of
general rumblings. They they didn't find him personable or they
found him odd.
S1 (04:48):
And just so I've got the timeline, right. Police took
Joseph Dale Brown into custody on May 12th. And then
it was another two weeks for the parents of the
alleged victims to be notified. And then there was some
more time after that, before the broader community was told.
Is that right?
S4 (05:03):
Yeah. I mean.
S2 (05:04):
Basically they they had identified the eight victims within about
ten days or two weeks of arresting him. They told
the parents of the directly affected alleged abuse victims. Um,
and then from there they decided to to go public because,
I mean, it was going to get out eventually. And
one of the things they didn't want to do was
to cause a panic, because if the information came out
(05:26):
in dribs and drabs, if they hadn't been, you know,
prepared to, to, to, to name the offender, which is
extraordinarily unusual in Victoria. Um, police do not name offenders
in their media statements or at press conferences. It almost
never happens. But this was determined to be such a
public health importance that that rule was effectively discarded so
(05:46):
they could name him. And one of the reasons was,
is they needed to make sure that people didn't get
the wrong idea about other male child care workers that
were working in the western suburbs. So they named they
named the alleged offender. And also they wanted to put
out the names of the child care centres because there's
lots of child care centres in Melbourne's west. And if
they just said, Melbourne's western suburbs, everybody would have been
(06:09):
thinking that their child could possibly evict them. And how
can you know when your child is five months old?
S1 (06:14):
Well, that's exactly it. And so tell us, what about
the parents who have children at these centres, who there's
no suggestion that their children have been abused, but have
we heard from any other parents whose kids go to
these centres where he worked?
S2 (06:25):
Oh, yeah. There's a lot of anger and demands for
how it was allowed to allegedly happen. Um, there's plenty
of people who are upset around the messaging and the
notifications that effectively, they're getting dinged with emails and text
messages at the same time as a press conference. Um,
I mean, it's hard to argue with someone who could
be affected this way. Like, you know, if you're angry,
(06:47):
you get angry. Um, but and a lot of people
are asking how this possibly could have happened, that there's
70 counts, eight victims over a period that spans two,
you know, two years, 2022, 2023, how this how this
possibly was allowed to happen.
S5 (07:04):
And I've got to ask you about.
S1 (07:06):
You know, another part of the story that is really
just sickening, which, of course, is that authorities have said
that more than 1200 children would need to be tested
for sexually transmitted diseases. So can you explain what this
is about?
S2 (07:19):
Look, so basically, there's some suggestion that kids could have
been exposed to an STD of 1 or 2 different varieties, um,
because of what this offender allegedly did, whether that's physical
contact or through cross-contamination is still an open question. But, um,
(07:39):
I mean, 1200 children have been asked to be tested.
So they and in order to do something like this,
the health department must feel that there's a realistic possibility
of transmission between this alleged offender and these children.
S1 (07:53):
And to be clear, I believe this is because the
alleged offender, Joshua Dale Brown, has tested positive for a
sexually transmitted disease.
S2 (08:01):
Yes.
S1 (08:02):
And so, Chris, has there been any other suggestion of
anyone else involved in these alleged crimes?
S2 (08:07):
Oh, look, the cops have been very clear that there
is no suspected involvement of anyone else in the childcare centres.
That being said, we found out this morning that another
person has been charged in relation to this investigation with
45 counts, including child rape and and using a carriage
service to transmit child abuse material. Our understanding is that
(08:28):
he was discovered at the same time that Joshua was.
They are known to each other, but he didn't allegedly
commit funding at the childcare centre. This is a separate funding,
separate victims. But these two people know each other.
S1 (08:42):
And so, Chris, what happens from here? I mean, do
we know if the alleged offender is going to contest
the charges, for one thing?
S2 (08:49):
Oh, look, it's very early days in terms of the
court proceedings. Both of these people have have court hearings
in mid mid September, where we expect to hear a
lot more details about what actually occurred and the connections
between these two people that allegedly exist. But right now
it's basically a waiting game. And the second part of
that waiting game is these 1200 kids being tested. And
(09:11):
whether there's actually a public health emergency here, um, with
sexually transmitted diseases with kids.
S1 (09:20):
I mean, I'm, I'm pausing there because it's absolutely so horrifying.
But and, Chris, you have covered crime for a very
long time. So I know it's early on in the
court process for this particular case, but are we going
to see some sort of reckoning, do you think, within
the childcare sector?
S2 (09:34):
Oh, it's a good question because one of the things
that people have been asking about is how this was
allowed to occur. And I, you know, I spoke to
someone who used to manage childcare centers yesterday and they
said to me, you know, childcare centers are not designed
for privacy. They're open plan. There's sightlines everywhere. There's usually
supposed to be at least two educators in any room.
(09:54):
No one is allowed private time with children, right? You don't.
You don't take a child at a child care center
to the to the staff bathroom. You know, you don't
remove them from the center by yourself. So questions are
going to be asked about how how is this able
to occur on such a scale that it's allegedly occurred
when these are effectively they're public places. Right. And there's
(10:16):
people moving in and out of them all the time.
Staff members like workers, cleaners, cooks. There's going to be
a lot of questions about how this was allowed to occur.
S1 (10:27):
Well, Chris, thank you so much for your time.
S2 (10:30):
Cheers. No worries.
S1 (10:34):
When we return. Early childcare advocate Lisa Bryant on what's
happened in the childcare sector that could leave children open
to abuse. Lisa, welcome to the Morning Edition.
S6 (10:52):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (10:53):
Now, you have worked as a researcher and an advocate
for the early child care sector for a long time.
So I've got to ask you, what was your reaction
to the news of this case?
S6 (11:02):
Look, I was absolutely horrified and shocked, as I'm sure
most people working in the sector were.
S1 (11:09):
And I have to ask you, I mean, how is
it that we've had not just one, but two cases here?
I'm referring to not just this latest one in Melbourne,
but a completely separate set of child sex abuse allegations
against a childcare worker in Brisbane. So what's going on
in the sector that this could possibly be happening again?
S6 (11:27):
I think a number of things are causing it. Primarily
you've got a sector where you've got a huge turnover,
you've got um, over 50% of workers in the sector
have been working in the sector for less than three years. Right.
You've got a highly casualised sector. You've got a sector
(11:47):
where you've got young workers working on minimal pay, minimum wages,
and you've got workers working in a sector that's dominated
by large for profit organisations. A lot of them run
by private equity firms and by corporate listed companies. Their
(12:11):
primary aim is to make money, and making money and
taking care of children are not necessarily on the same page.
And so the things that we do to have high
quality care, which is to have high numbers of highly
qualified staff, are not the same things we do to
make money out of caring for children, which is to
(12:33):
cut wages and to cut the numbers of staff and
to have the least qualified staff. So it's kind of
an accident waiting to happen.
S1 (12:42):
And I believe I heard you say in an interview
that this is actually becoming more prevalent, these problems in
the last, say, five years. So what's happened in the
last five years, perhaps in particular at profit centres, which
is leading to more allegations of this kind.
S6 (12:57):
Our centres are getting bigger and bigger, right. Whereas before
you used to have a large number of really small centres,
you know, 30 or 40 children in a centre. Now
we're having centres. The largest centres are up to 400. Um,
you know, 400 places. Yeah. So when you have 400
(13:18):
children in a centre, it's not the same intimate environment
where everyone knows each other and knows what's happening and knows,
you know, what, um, is happening in the environment. It's
a much different kind of environment. You have people coming
and going, a lot more casual staff coming and going.
(13:38):
These places aren't places that are fun to work. And
so their turnover is a lot higher. People churn through them,
they rely on casual workforces.
S1 (13:52):
So I have to ask you what? I'm sure a
lot of people listening to this will be asking themselves,
which is whether children really are less safe or are
they more vulnerable in for profit centres in comparison to
not for profit centres?
S6 (14:04):
Well, look, the statistics tell us that, um, on the
rating system that happens for all education and care services
across Australia, that not for profit centres and those smaller
for profit centres, the ones that we call mum and dad,
for profit centers that have been held by a family
for years and years are a lot safer than the
(14:29):
corporate ones and the private equity ones. But you know
the sorts of things. If I was a parent that
my advice to parents to look out for is, first
of all, check who owns the service. You know, if
it is one of those smaller for profit ones or
if it is a not for profit, especially the smaller,
(14:49):
not for profits. You know you're probably in fairly good hands.
Check what the rating is. It's not always 100% guarantee,
but it's the best kind of assessment of their quality
that we have. Examine the staff to child ratios. You know,
the ones that run on the very minimum legal staff
(15:13):
ratios are probably not as good as the ones that
are consistently above the minimum ratios. Check the staff turnover.
This is always the really key point. Have the staff
been there for a while? Are the staff happy there?
Don't be fooled by appearances. Don't go for the glossy centre.
That's not necessarily the the best centre. Trust your instincts.
(15:38):
Every parent has great spidey senses. Trust them, you know.
Just really check out how do I feel about these people?
Do I think that they're in it for the right reasons?
If I do. Then run with that. If you're handing
over to an educator that you're not certain about, walk away.
It's not worth the risk.
S1 (15:59):
I really wanted to ask you about about the ratio,
because I know I believe the ratio is that there
be one educator for four babies. I think that was
implemented 14 years ago. But I believe you've also.
S6 (16:11):
Shocking, isn't.
S1 (16:11):
It? It is shocking. It is shocking. I've had three
babies go through childcare and I've dealt with the anxiety.
S6 (16:18):
Four babies at the one time.
S1 (16:19):
I absolutely could not. I can barely handle the three
children I've got. Lisa. But but I do want to
ask you about that ratio, because do you basically think
there should be a change to the law?
S6 (16:29):
Yeah. Look, when that came in, we thought it would
be temporary. We thought it would eventually move to 1
to 3, but under the pressure of the large for profits,
it never was able to move. It should be 1
to 3. But more to the point, when it was
set up as wonderful. It was never intended that you
would have one educator with four babies. It was always intended.
(16:50):
You'd have like, oh, in a room of 12 babies,
you'd have three educators. But now they're actually building centers
where there is one educator with four babies. And that
is not a good situation for anyone.
S1 (17:04):
And this sort of, I guess, hits to the crux
of what I think a lot of parents will be
feeling anxiety about is the problem here that workers had
one on one access to children without other educators present. Like,
is that the problem here? Do you think that should
just not be allowed?
S6 (17:16):
Of course it shouldn't be allowed, but it's unavoidable when
you've got those kind of ratios of 1 to 4.
Like if one person's feeding a baby, another person's changing nappies,
and another person has to go and get food for
the other babies from the kitchen, then you've got three,
(17:37):
you know, educators alone with babies as it is. But
in good centres they tend to have a rule of
you always have to keep another educator in line of sight.
S1 (17:48):
And I really want to ask you about the current
vetting system for people who, of course, work in child
care centers. I mean, is it adequate? Should security protocols
be changed to avoid horrific alleged crimes like the one
with Joshua Dale Brown and others? Because of course, he,
as I imagine other alleged offenders, had no criminal record.
S6 (18:07):
I don't think it's a question of pre-vetting. But I
do think there's a lot of work that can be
done on reporting, making reporting easier for educators if they
have suspicions and being able to report outside of their
center if they're too concerned to report up the chain
of command in their center, having a one instant national
(18:29):
line that they can go to to report, to make
it really easy for them to do that. Um, and
then when when reports have been made and found even
if it wasn't, you know, if someone's been moved on,
then other employers need to be able to find that on.
(18:51):
I'm not saying without due process for someone wrongly accused,
but if someone's let go from one centre and then
is employed in another centre with no knowledge of why
they were let go, then that doesn't work.
S1 (19:06):
Now I really have to ask you a vexed question
that I think a lot of listeners might be asking themselves.
I know it's something I have asked myself when my
own children have been in daycare, and this is whether
male childcare workers should be subject to greater supervision. I mean,
I hesitate to ask this. I have two sons. I
know that most men, of course, do not abuse children.
And yet we have seen a number of cases of
(19:27):
men alleged to have sexually abused children at childcare centres
over the last couple of years in Australia, so I
would love to hear your perspective.
S6 (19:34):
It's really hard one. We need men around children. We
need men providing care And education for children. Almost all
of the offenders of sexual abuse are men in childcare.
Not all educators in childcare that are men are sexual abusers, right?
(20:00):
But because the sector is 97% women, often men are
put on a pedestal. Often men who know how to
groom children are also very good at grooming other female
educators and directors, and so they become their best friends.
(20:21):
That isn't spoken about openly in the sector. Women aren't
trained about that in their training courses. We need to
have a discussion about gender. We need to talk about
what gender it is. That is a committing sexual offences
about children. And we need to have that openly. We
need to have that in childcare, but we also need
(20:43):
to have that in society as a whole. In Australia,
we need to talk about the fact that it's men
that are hurting children sexually much more than women.
S1 (20:53):
A big question, of course, is where do we go
from here? You know, is it an inquiry that we need?
Is it a royal commission? Is it something else? Because
I imagine parents around Australia would just be. I mean,
they'd be tearing their hair out right now.
S6 (21:06):
Look, I don't think we need a royal commission because
in my experience, I'm 62. And in my lifetime, royal
commissions are great for exposing problems, but they're not often
great at causing long term change. The Royal Commission into
Institutional Childhood Sexual Abuse found that most of the abuse
(21:27):
happened in the Catholic Church, but we still allow the
Catholic Church to look after children in early education and
care and in schools. Right. And in our churches and
in other institutions. It would be possibly the easiest thing
in the world for the federal government to say, do
(21:50):
we want to keep funding people who want to make
money out of the care of our children, or can
we change the system? At the moment, we have a
two tier system for education and care. We have one
tier where children are getting the absolute best education and care,
where educators are doing wonderful things with children are really
(22:13):
giving them the best start to life. And another where
children are being cared for by educators who don't really
have it in them to care for children. We need
to rebuild that system from scratch, and I think we
can do it if we have the will. If the
government has the will.
S1 (22:33):
And do you think this might be enough to prompt
the federal government to to make real industry wide changes.
Do you have hope for that?
S6 (22:40):
Well, look, let's put it this way. When Covid hit,
you know, the government looked at our aged care system
and said, we can't have these for profit providers, um,
looking after our aged care because they're not managing it
very well. That was seen as a crisis. If you
have 1200 babies in Australia having STD tests, and that's
(23:04):
not seen as a similar crisis, then what is? This
is a crisis. Governments have to treat it like one.
S1 (23:12):
Well, thank you so much, Lisa, for your time.
S6 (23:15):
Thank you so much for having me. I hope it's
been valuable.
S1 (23:21):
And just another reminder, the allegations raised in this episode
are yet to be proven by a court. If this
discussion has raised anything for you, support is available from
the National Sexual Assault Domestic Family Violence Counselling Service at 732.
(23:46):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to
support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe
(24:12):
and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive
a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis
and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
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