September 21, 2025 • 15 mins
Once upon a time, the dangers of eating too much fast food were at the front of our minds thanks to documentaries like Super Size Me. But that was more than 20 years ago.
Since then, the topic may have fallen off the front pages, but fast food chains have been on the march, opening up across Australia.
Today, regional editor Benjamin Preiss and senior health reporter Henrietta Cook on the growing movement to halt the growth of the "golden arches" in regional areas.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday,
September 22nd.
S2 (00:12):
So, uh, we're inside McDonald's in, uh, Armstrong Creek, and, um,
we're going to get something to eat. Uh. All right.
S1 (00:23):
Once upon a time, the dangers of eating too much
fast food were at the front of our minds, thanks
to documentaries like Super Size Me.
S2 (00:31):
I'm just going to go for a. Meal, I guess.
I do not want the bundle for six. Uh, that's
a lot of food. Um.
S1 (00:46):
But that was more than 20 years ago. Since then,
the topic may have fallen off the front pages, but
fast food chains have been on the march, opening up
in more and more areas of Australia today. Regional editor
Benjamin Price and senior health reporter Henrietta Cook on the
growing movement to halt their growth in regional areas. So
(01:10):
Ben and Henrietta, you have both written extensively on the
fast food giants that are really making inroads into suburban
and regional areas, really areas that are rapidly urbanizing. So why?
Because many listeners, I think, might be like myself and
they might think, well, these chains, they go everywhere. Right.
So what's the problem?
S3 (01:29):
I drive around a lot in regional Victoria, so I
get to see what kinds of businesses are popping up,
new businesses. I get to see what's out there. I
often have to stop and get lunch and that kind
of thing. And in areas that are fast urbanizing, I've
noticed that in some places there's not much else other
(01:50):
than fast food. And the problem with that is not
the existence of the fast food, the presence of fast
food itself. The problem, as I see it, is the
the presence of fast food at the exclusion of other,
more healthy options. So I think that there is concern
(02:12):
among town planners and communities and health advocates that these
places exist at the expense of more healthy options.
S1 (02:24):
Yeah, because you had one line in your piece that
said that these chains are often setting up beside paddocks
well before healthier operators have had a chance to get established.
So that's what you're talking about, isn't it? Like they're
really kind of like get first in.
S3 (02:36):
Yeah. That's right. So they know where the the residential
areas are growing fast. They move fast as well. And
in planning schemes at the moment in Victoria, there is
nothing to stop them from moving in there quickly based
on health objections from the community or from the council,
(02:57):
for example. So if they want to set up in
a particular area and there's already 2 or 3 other
fast food outlets. There's nothing that the council can deny
that application based on purely health grounds.
S1 (03:13):
And Henrietta. I'd really love it if you could tell
us about your experience. You both drove into a place
called Armstrong Creek. This is a regional centre, a suburb
on the outskirts of Geelong, where you're driving in and
you notice just an absolute array of fast food chains.
So tell us what you saw.
S4 (03:30):
That's right. Armstrong Creek is sort of a growth in
a growth corridor area near Geelong in Victoria. So driving
in you're hit by all these large neon signs for
fast food restaurants. You've got Hungry Jack's, you've got KFC,
you've got McDonald's, then you've got Red rooster. Then there's
(03:51):
another burger chain and then you've got a 7-Eleven.
S3 (03:54):
It's just one after the other. It just it kind
of just hits you in the face. And they're just
they're all on the same side of town. And you
can imagine people coming back from from the Melbourne side and, um,
they're hungry or their kids are hungry and it just
it swamps you. I mean, you know, we stopped and
got lunch. I was I was hungry, so I stopped
(04:16):
and got a burger. I don't do this very often. Um,
but yeah, me and hen stopped and got something to eat,
and it was just. That was almost the only place
to eat there.
S1 (04:25):
And how did you feel afterwards? Because I'm guessing from
the tone of your voice, I'm getting a sense of regret.
I don't want to say there was, I don't know, me.
Maybe it was thoroughly enjoyable, but. But, Ben, that's not
what I'm hearing in your voice.
S3 (04:36):
I felt both things. I felt it was thoroughly enjoyable
and regret. My mouth still feels greasy, even though that
was a few weeks ago. I think that it highlights
for me the fact that it is a very rare,
sometimes food. I do think, though, that if I lived
(04:56):
in a place like Armstrong Creek, I would be eating
it more often just because that is what's there. I
love cooking myself, but often I don't have time, you know?
Or my my kids are hungry, and I we need
we need to get them something sort of quickly to eat.
They can't wait for me to cook for two hours
after they get home from school sometimes. So I think
(05:17):
that if I did live there, I would be eating
a lot more fast food. I can see the way
that planning has a direct impact on my life.
S1 (05:27):
And I really want to ask you about, I guess,
the risks to these chains opening up in these areas
as opposed to urban centers. Because if I read your
features correctly, it seems like people who live in regional
areas are perhaps particularly vulnerable to experiencing the negative health
effects that can come with eating fast food. Is that right?
S4 (05:45):
That's right. It's not because of the presence of those
fast food outlets. It's because they are not sort of
offset by healthier options. So there's not many places to
go if you're driving home late at night with hungry
kids in the back of the car and you want
a quick bite to eat, you've only got a few options.
And they're often fast food outlets, and that's the risk.
You end up eating there too often. And we know
(06:08):
that these are, um, low nutrition, high fat, salty, sugary
foods that are not good for our health.
S1 (06:16):
Ben's. Ben's nodding there vigorously. But let's talk about the
other side of the argument, because some people, for instance,
are really hoping that a McDonald's soon opens up in Bendigo.
There's currently an application for one there to be built.
So for those who are hoping that the application is granted.
Tell us about the case that they're making.
S3 (06:33):
So the argument they're making is that in this particular instance,
there's a part of Bendigo that's also it's growing fast,
and there is a need for more businesses to cater
to the the growing population there. And some of the
parents or one parent I spoke to in particular was
saying McDonald's would not be their first choice for that
(06:55):
particular location. But if that is the impetus, the trigger
that gets other businesses in there, then they'll happily accept that.
S1 (07:04):
And tell us, though, about the case against this McDonald's
opening up in Bendigo, because there's there's quite a lot
of people who are really strongly against it.
S4 (07:13):
Yeah. The main concern is that it is just metres
from a public primary school, and parents at the school
say that their children will be learning in classrooms and
staring out to golden arches. They're concerned about smells of
fatty food wafting into the playground at lunchtime. They're concerned
about having to walk past the drive through to get
(07:33):
to school and dealing with all the traffic associated with that.
And they're concerned that their kids are going to be
asking for this food before and after school and that
it's going to kind of erode, I guess, all the
healthy eating that they have been learning about at school.
S3 (07:48):
And this is a school that had won awards for
their healthy food in the canteen. Right.
S4 (07:54):
That's right. Yeah. Their menu in the school canteen had
won awards because it was seen as very healthy. The
school was building nature playgrounds and doing all these things
to teach kids how to be healthy and active. And
they felt that the presence of that McDonald's would, I guess,
undermine all that.
S1 (08:12):
And your research for this series, it reveals that the
Victorian Government has recommended multiple times the introduction of restrictions
that might limit the proliferation of fast food outlets. So
tell us a little bit about these efforts and why
they haven't actually come to fruition.
S3 (08:26):
That's right. I mean, there have been more than one
recommendation put to the government suggesting that councils perhaps gain
the power to make decisions on planning applications based on
health grounds, for reasons that are not quite clear to
me yet. Um, the government doesn't seem particularly motivated to
(08:48):
act on this. I would just be guessing. But I
can imagine that the fast food corporations would not accept
that lightly, and they would come out quite strongly against that,
I'm guessing. So I think that if the government were
to do this, they would probably have have a fight
on their hands and they'd have to really want to
(09:08):
do it. It's been done elsewhere. There have been no
fry zones introduced in parts of the UK there have
been buffer zones set up in the UK as well,
where fast food operators cannot open up within. I think
it's a 400 metre buffer zone of of primary schools.
So there are other instances where this has been done.
(09:31):
I think it would take a very committed and motivated
government to do it.
S4 (09:34):
I imagine that they'd also face fierce opposition from developers.
They often actually go and court these fast food outlets
to move into new housing developments. Once a retail space
is occupied by a fast food outlet, it is more
attractive to investors who buy into the development because it's
(09:55):
seen as a stable, predictable business. We know people love
fast food. They're going to go there, they're going to
buy the food. They're often there for many decades.
S3 (10:04):
Yeah. And it's almost like develop big developments in their planning.
For a lot of them. They've got these sort of
big sites that are set aside for retail. They're not
that conducive to a small independent greengrocer or fishmonger or
a butcher who, you know, who's who's selling fresh meat.
So it seems like the problem starts well before the
(10:28):
developments are even. Like houses start springing up. It's there's
there's not enough planning for those smaller businesses, those smaller
spaces where people can go and get fresh fruit and vegetables.
S1 (10:40):
And earlier this month, you reported that the Jacinta Allan
government was considering major changes to state planning laws that
would actually prevent large fast food chains from setting up
in areas saturated with unhealthy eateries. So what are the
chances that this new law will come into effect? Like,
could we see this movement begin to kick off here?
S4 (11:00):
I feel like there is momentum. There's a lot of
health organisations calling for change. It's obviously not the first
time that this idea has been floated and investigated by
the state government, but I feel like, um, you know,
as we talk about rising obesity rates, worsening health conditions,
(11:23):
there perhaps is appetite to change some things in our
planning schemes to allow councils to block fast food developments
on health grounds, concerns about them impacting the health of residents.
S1 (11:35):
Okay, but let's just play devil's advocate here. You know,
at the end of the day, why can't this be
an individual choice? You know, if parents want to go
to a McDonald's, why can't they just go to McDonald's
or choose not to?
S4 (11:46):
Well, I guess no one's saying that people shouldn't have
access to these places, but they're saying that our food
environment should be designed so that there is choice. And
I guess it is a problem when there is no choice.
And all you have is fast food. In a lot
of these areas, people travel great distances to go to work.
They're more time poor than people living in the inner city,
(12:08):
so they rely on the convenience of these places more
than other people. So it's important that there's healthier options
and a variety of places to get food.
S1 (12:18):
Absolutely, absolutely. And I guess this goes to the point
that sort of runs throughout your features, which is that
people in certain areas really are at a disadvantage. It
actually is tougher for them, perhaps, to eat more healthy.
And why? Perhaps it isn't just a matter of individual
choice as as black and white as that would sound.
S4 (12:35):
That's right. Yeah. You don't want obstacles to accessing healthy food.
If you make it hard for people, they won't eat it.
S3 (12:43):
I think that's completely right. And these fast food corporations,
they're not silly. They are targeting places like primary schools.
Not by chance. They know that people will eat there
more frequently. It will not be a sometimes option for
them when those options are there at the expense of
(13:04):
other things. So yes, it is personal choice, of course,
but what happens if your personal choices are crowded out?
You know, that's I think that's a big part of
the of what this sort of series and debate has
all been about. Yes, it's. Of course you. Of course.
Parents should choose what their kids eat. Of. Of course
(13:27):
they should. But. But corporations know the influence of pester power.
S1 (13:33):
It's like where the rubber hits the road between ideals
and then practicalities. You know, similarly with screen time, you know,
the things I said that I would put into place
before I had kids or before I had teenagers. It
looks very different from what I'm allowing in my house now.
You know, after being worn down. I guess it's the
same thing with fast food.
S3 (13:49):
Completely the things that a lot of parents are willing
to do, me included. There's no judgment here, but to
buy some piece often will go to great lengths to
do that.
S1 (13:58):
Will we ever?
S2 (14:01):
I don't know, what are you what are you going
to get, hen?
S5 (14:03):
I'll probably just some chips.
S2 (14:04):
Some chips. Okay. Traveling light. Oh, hang on, let's see.
Let's see what the Happy Meals are. It looks like.
S1 (14:11):
Thank you so much, Henrietta and Ben, for your time.
S3 (14:15):
Thank you. Sam.
S4 (14:16):
Thank you.
S1 (14:21):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills,
with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
(14:44):
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary
of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday,
September 22nd.
S2 (00:12):
So, uh, we're inside McDonald's in, uh, Armstrong Creek, and, um,
we're going to get something to eat. Uh. All right.
S1 (00:23):
Once upon a time, the dangers of eating too much
fast food were at the front of our minds, thanks
to documentaries like Super Size Me.
S2 (00:31):
I'm just going to go for a. Meal, I guess.
I do not want the bundle for six. Uh, that's
a lot of food. Um.
S1 (00:46):
But that was more than 20 years ago. Since then,
the topic may have fallen off the front pages, but
fast food chains have been on the march, opening up
in more and more areas of Australia today. Regional editor
Benjamin Price and senior health reporter Henrietta Cook on the
growing movement to halt their growth in regional areas. So
(01:10):
Ben and Henrietta, you have both written extensively on the
fast food giants that are really making inroads into suburban
and regional areas, really areas that are rapidly urbanizing. So why?
Because many listeners, I think, might be like myself and
they might think, well, these chains, they go everywhere. Right.
So what's the problem?
S3 (01:29):
I drive around a lot in regional Victoria, so I
get to see what kinds of businesses are popping up,
new businesses. I get to see what's out there. I
often have to stop and get lunch and that kind
of thing. And in areas that are fast urbanizing, I've
noticed that in some places there's not much else other
(01:50):
than fast food. And the problem with that is not
the existence of the fast food, the presence of fast
food itself. The problem, as I see it, is the
the presence of fast food at the exclusion of other,
more healthy options. So I think that there is concern
(02:12):
among town planners and communities and health advocates that these
places exist at the expense of more healthy options.
S1 (02:24):
Yeah, because you had one line in your piece that
said that these chains are often setting up beside paddocks
well before healthier operators have had a chance to get established.
So that's what you're talking about, isn't it? Like they're
really kind of like get first in.
S3 (02:36):
Yeah. That's right. So they know where the the residential
areas are growing fast. They move fast as well. And
in planning schemes at the moment in Victoria, there is
nothing to stop them from moving in there quickly based
on health objections from the community or from the council,
(02:57):
for example. So if they want to set up in
a particular area and there's already 2 or 3 other
fast food outlets. There's nothing that the council can deny
that application based on purely health grounds.
S1 (03:13):
And Henrietta. I'd really love it if you could tell
us about your experience. You both drove into a place
called Armstrong Creek. This is a regional centre, a suburb
on the outskirts of Geelong, where you're driving in and
you notice just an absolute array of fast food chains.
So tell us what you saw.
S4 (03:30):
That's right. Armstrong Creek is sort of a growth in
a growth corridor area near Geelong in Victoria. So driving
in you're hit by all these large neon signs for
fast food restaurants. You've got Hungry Jack's, you've got KFC,
you've got McDonald's, then you've got Red rooster. Then there's
(03:51):
another burger chain and then you've got a 7-Eleven.
S3 (03:54):
It's just one after the other. It just it kind
of just hits you in the face. And they're just
they're all on the same side of town. And you
can imagine people coming back from from the Melbourne side and, um,
they're hungry or their kids are hungry and it just
it swamps you. I mean, you know, we stopped and
got lunch. I was I was hungry, so I stopped
(04:16):
and got a burger. I don't do this very often. Um,
but yeah, me and hen stopped and got something to eat,
and it was just. That was almost the only place
to eat there.
S1 (04:25):
And how did you feel afterwards? Because I'm guessing from
the tone of your voice, I'm getting a sense of regret.
I don't want to say there was, I don't know, me.
Maybe it was thoroughly enjoyable, but. But, Ben, that's not
what I'm hearing in your voice.
S3 (04:36):
I felt both things. I felt it was thoroughly enjoyable
and regret. My mouth still feels greasy, even though that
was a few weeks ago. I think that it highlights
for me the fact that it is a very rare,
sometimes food. I do think, though, that if I lived
(04:56):
in a place like Armstrong Creek, I would be eating
it more often just because that is what's there. I
love cooking myself, but often I don't have time, you know?
Or my my kids are hungry, and I we need
we need to get them something sort of quickly to eat.
They can't wait for me to cook for two hours
after they get home from school sometimes. So I think
(05:17):
that if I did live there, I would be eating
a lot more fast food. I can see the way
that planning has a direct impact on my life.
S1 (05:27):
And I really want to ask you about, I guess,
the risks to these chains opening up in these areas
as opposed to urban centers. Because if I read your
features correctly, it seems like people who live in regional
areas are perhaps particularly vulnerable to experiencing the negative health
effects that can come with eating fast food. Is that right?
S4 (05:45):
That's right. It's not because of the presence of those
fast food outlets. It's because they are not sort of
offset by healthier options. So there's not many places to
go if you're driving home late at night with hungry
kids in the back of the car and you want
a quick bite to eat, you've only got a few options.
And they're often fast food outlets, and that's the risk.
You end up eating there too often. And we know
(06:08):
that these are, um, low nutrition, high fat, salty, sugary
foods that are not good for our health.
S1 (06:16):
Ben's. Ben's nodding there vigorously. But let's talk about the
other side of the argument, because some people, for instance,
are really hoping that a McDonald's soon opens up in Bendigo.
There's currently an application for one there to be built.
So for those who are hoping that the application is granted.
Tell us about the case that they're making.
S3 (06:33):
So the argument they're making is that in this particular instance,
there's a part of Bendigo that's also it's growing fast,
and there is a need for more businesses to cater
to the the growing population there. And some of the
parents or one parent I spoke to in particular was
saying McDonald's would not be their first choice for that
(06:55):
particular location. But if that is the impetus, the trigger
that gets other businesses in there, then they'll happily accept that.
S1 (07:04):
And tell us, though, about the case against this McDonald's
opening up in Bendigo, because there's there's quite a lot
of people who are really strongly against it.
S4 (07:13):
Yeah. The main concern is that it is just metres
from a public primary school, and parents at the school
say that their children will be learning in classrooms and
staring out to golden arches. They're concerned about smells of
fatty food wafting into the playground at lunchtime. They're concerned
about having to walk past the drive through to get
(07:33):
to school and dealing with all the traffic associated with that.
And they're concerned that their kids are going to be
asking for this food before and after school and that
it's going to kind of erode, I guess, all the
healthy eating that they have been learning about at school.
S3 (07:48):
And this is a school that had won awards for
their healthy food in the canteen. Right.
S4 (07:54):
That's right. Yeah. Their menu in the school canteen had
won awards because it was seen as very healthy. The
school was building nature playgrounds and doing all these things
to teach kids how to be healthy and active. And
they felt that the presence of that McDonald's would, I guess,
undermine all that.
S1 (08:12):
And your research for this series, it reveals that the
Victorian Government has recommended multiple times the introduction of restrictions
that might limit the proliferation of fast food outlets. So
tell us a little bit about these efforts and why
they haven't actually come to fruition.
S3 (08:26):
That's right. I mean, there have been more than one
recommendation put to the government suggesting that councils perhaps gain
the power to make decisions on planning applications based on
health grounds, for reasons that are not quite clear to
me yet. Um, the government doesn't seem particularly motivated to
(08:48):
act on this. I would just be guessing. But I
can imagine that the fast food corporations would not accept
that lightly, and they would come out quite strongly against that,
I'm guessing. So I think that if the government were
to do this, they would probably have have a fight
on their hands and they'd have to really want to
(09:08):
do it. It's been done elsewhere. There have been no
fry zones introduced in parts of the UK there have
been buffer zones set up in the UK as well,
where fast food operators cannot open up within. I think
it's a 400 metre buffer zone of of primary schools.
So there are other instances where this has been done.
(09:31):
I think it would take a very committed and motivated
government to do it.
S4 (09:34):
I imagine that they'd also face fierce opposition from developers.
They often actually go and court these fast food outlets
to move into new housing developments. Once a retail space
is occupied by a fast food outlet, it is more
attractive to investors who buy into the development because it's
(09:55):
seen as a stable, predictable business. We know people love
fast food. They're going to go there, they're going to
buy the food. They're often there for many decades.
S3 (10:04):
Yeah. And it's almost like develop big developments in their planning.
For a lot of them. They've got these sort of
big sites that are set aside for retail. They're not
that conducive to a small independent greengrocer or fishmonger or
a butcher who, you know, who's who's selling fresh meat.
So it seems like the problem starts well before the
(10:28):
developments are even. Like houses start springing up. It's there's
there's not enough planning for those smaller businesses, those smaller
spaces where people can go and get fresh fruit and vegetables.
S1 (10:40):
And earlier this month, you reported that the Jacinta Allan
government was considering major changes to state planning laws that
would actually prevent large fast food chains from setting up
in areas saturated with unhealthy eateries. So what are the
chances that this new law will come into effect? Like,
could we see this movement begin to kick off here?
S4 (11:00):
I feel like there is momentum. There's a lot of
health organisations calling for change. It's obviously not the first
time that this idea has been floated and investigated by
the state government, but I feel like, um, you know,
as we talk about rising obesity rates, worsening health conditions,
(11:23):
there perhaps is appetite to change some things in our
planning schemes to allow councils to block fast food developments
on health grounds, concerns about them impacting the health of residents.
S1 (11:35):
Okay, but let's just play devil's advocate here. You know,
at the end of the day, why can't this be
an individual choice? You know, if parents want to go
to a McDonald's, why can't they just go to McDonald's
or choose not to?
S4 (11:46):
Well, I guess no one's saying that people shouldn't have
access to these places, but they're saying that our food
environment should be designed so that there is choice. And
I guess it is a problem when there is no choice.
And all you have is fast food. In a lot
of these areas, people travel great distances to go to work.
They're more time poor than people living in the inner city,
(12:08):
so they rely on the convenience of these places more
than other people. So it's important that there's healthier options
and a variety of places to get food.
S1 (12:18):
Absolutely, absolutely. And I guess this goes to the point
that sort of runs throughout your features, which is that
people in certain areas really are at a disadvantage. It
actually is tougher for them, perhaps, to eat more healthy.
And why? Perhaps it isn't just a matter of individual
choice as as black and white as that would sound.
S4 (12:35):
That's right. Yeah. You don't want obstacles to accessing healthy food.
If you make it hard for people, they won't eat it.
S3 (12:43):
I think that's completely right. And these fast food corporations,
they're not silly. They are targeting places like primary schools.
Not by chance. They know that people will eat there
more frequently. It will not be a sometimes option for
them when those options are there at the expense of
(13:04):
other things. So yes, it is personal choice, of course,
but what happens if your personal choices are crowded out?
You know, that's I think that's a big part of
the of what this sort of series and debate has
all been about. Yes, it's. Of course you. Of course.
Parents should choose what their kids eat. Of. Of course
(13:27):
they should. But. But corporations know the influence of pester power.
S1 (13:33):
It's like where the rubber hits the road between ideals
and then practicalities. You know, similarly with screen time, you know,
the things I said that I would put into place
before I had kids or before I had teenagers. It
looks very different from what I'm allowing in my house now.
You know, after being worn down. I guess it's the
same thing with fast food.
S3 (13:49):
Completely the things that a lot of parents are willing
to do, me included. There's no judgment here, but to
buy some piece often will go to great lengths to
do that.
S1 (13:58):
Will we ever?
S2 (14:01):
I don't know, what are you what are you going
to get, hen?
S5 (14:03):
I'll probably just some chips.
S2 (14:04):
Some chips. Okay. Traveling light. Oh, hang on, let's see.
Let's see what the Happy Meals are. It looks like.
S1 (14:11):
Thank you so much, Henrietta and Ben, for your time.
S3 (14:15):
Thank you. Sam.
S4 (14:16):
Thank you.
S1 (14:21):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills,
with technical assistance by Josh towers. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
(14:44):
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary
of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
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