May 20, 2025 • 21 mins
We know, we know, Donald Trump has gone gangbusters in the Middle east, inking hundreds of millions of dollars worth of deals left, right and centre.
But hidden within all the details about Trump’s whirlwind trip - the Qatari jet, his bromance with the Saudi crown prince - is one deal that you might have missed.
Today, international and political editor Peter Hartcher, on Donald Trump’s microchip deal with the UAE government. Its inherent risks, for the world. And potential opportunity, for Australia.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday,
May 21st. We know, we know. Donald Trump has gone
gangbusters in the Middle East, inking hundreds of millions of
dollars worth of deals left, right and centre. But hidden
(00:25):
within all the details about Trump's whirlwind trip, the Qatari jet,
his bromance with the Saudi crown prince is one deal
that you might have missed. Today, international and political editor
Peter Hartcher on Donald Trump's microchip deal with the United
Arab Emirates government, its inherent risks for the world and
(00:46):
potential opportunity for Australia. Okay, Peter, first off, we've got
to start with Donald Trump's bromance diplomacy. This is, of course,
with what he's been doing in the Middle East, and
the rest of us have been freaking out about this
luxury airplane that Trump has accepted from the Qatari government,
(01:07):
but not you, Hartcher, because you've zeroed in on another
deal he has just signed in Abu Dhabi. Tell me
about this.
S2 (01:14):
Well, I'm sure the $400 million 747 will help lubricate
Trump's consideration of some of these arrangements.
S3 (01:26):
Spectacle in the air and on the ground. As Qatar
rolled out the welcome mat for President Donald Trump amid
growing controversy over his decision to accept a luxury jet
from the nation.
S4 (01:38):
The fanfare began in the sky.
S2 (01:40):
Yes, his trip last late last week was to Saudi Arabia. Qatar.
Ably assisted by the offer of the plane, I'm sure.
Followed by the United Arab Emirates.
S5 (01:53):
Speaking to reporters on Air Force One, President Trump praised
the leaders of those countries after a trip marked by
business deals and lavish state dinners.
S6 (02:00):
It was a great four days. I think it was
a historic four days in all three countries. You can't
speak more highly. It's the job they've done.
S2 (02:11):
He didn't in his Middle East tour visit Israel, which
was a notable omission.
S1 (02:16):
Very notable.
S2 (02:18):
The common element in the Arab nations stop stopovers was
that all of them were were offering to invest large
sums in the US in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
S7 (02:31):
Trump hopes to make history with the deals he brings
back to the United States. On Thursday, the United Arab
Emirates reaffirmed its commitment to invest $1.4 trillion in the
fields of artificial intelligence, technology and energy in exchange for
access to advanced American microchips.
S2 (02:52):
Trump's deal the UAE alone has promised to invest 1.4
trillion USD in the US over ten years with the
newest latest increment towards that total being a $200 billion
package that Trump announced late last week while he was
in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE.
S1 (03:14):
And specifically, though you have zeroed in on a deal
regarding computer chips. So tell us about this.
S2 (03:21):
Yeah, this is a really sensitive and difficult part of
this deal, and it's become very controversial in the US.
Most of the investment is unobjectionable traditional stuff. The United
Arab Emirates saying we'll you know, we'll buy more Boeing
jets for so many billions. We want to smelt aluminium
in America for so many more billions. All of that
stuff is traditional. But the really difficult part, and the
(03:43):
controversial part, is that Trump agreed to sell to allow
the sale to the UAE of hundreds of thousands, and
perhaps over time, many more of the cutting edge semiconductor
computer chips that are powering the evolution of artificial intelligence. Now,
(04:05):
these are chips that are so exotic and so difficult
to make that they are considered one of the last
remaining edges that the US has over China in technology,
because the Chinese have caught up or exceeded the US
in many areas, and they're subject to export controls so
that they can't get to China and many other countries.
(04:28):
They can only get to trusted allies. And both in
the US generally, but also in the Trump administration, a
lot of voices have been raised to say, well, hang on,
the UAE is not our most trusted ally. We can't
be sure that giving them access to these chips won't
end up with access to this technology going to China,
(04:48):
and we shouldn't be doing the deal. But Trump overlooked
all that and did the deal anyway.
S1 (04:53):
Okay, so tell us about this though, because you've written
that Washington bans the sale of these top line chips
to China. So what is so bad if China gets
Ahold of these chips?
S2 (05:02):
Because the fear in Washington is that if the Chinese
are able to get what is really one of the
very last remaining technological advantages that the US holds, and
I being a fast developing and unfolding technology with great
potential to transform all sorts of fields of human endeavor,
(05:24):
that it will allow a threshold moment of Chinese takeover
of US capability, that that is the concern. And I
you know, for most of us, we just still are
standing around gawking, fascinated at ChatGPT like.
S1 (05:44):
Chimps playing with sticks in the mud, chimps with.
S2 (05:45):
Sticks in the mud. That's right. And, you know, lighting
our first fire and standing back in shock and awe. But, yeah, um,
in the business world, it's gone far beyond that. That
was a couple of years ago now. Now the AI
models are being Trained and produced and applied to do
(06:06):
all sorts of things to transform everything. Simple stuff like
customer service through to industrial applications on company floors, but
also being used to to accelerate the development of other technologies.
So it's an accelerator of of all sorts of things
in a productivity enhancer. But it has great application in
defence as well and military applications. So this is why
(06:30):
it's such a sensitive technology as Joe Biden used to say,
America is competing with China for the 21st century. They're
the stakes. China wants to be the dominant global power,
displacing the US. The US is making it easy for them,
thanks to Donald Trump throwing away so many of the
established advantages that the US had built up over the
last century or two. And it's at it's at that crossroads.
(06:54):
Hence the concern over giving these guys the UAE access
to Nvidia chips to build. What they are saying is
they're going to be their own enormous AI I precinct
in the UAE. Like the Saudis, they see I as
being an important economic supplement to their post-oil economies because
(07:17):
they're all running out of oil.
S1 (07:19):
And just so I understand it, you know, if China
wants to be the dominant global power, and as you say,
I supercharges the capability of all kinds of things. When
you get down to brass tacks, is what we're talking
about here. Their army will be more powerful, their defense
capabilities will be more powerful, their spying techniques will be
more powerful. Is that what we're talking about? Essentially.
S2 (07:39):
Exactly what we're talking about.
S1 (07:40):
Right. Okay. So we've got this risk. But then this
leads us to the second bit of news that piqued
your interest last week that you've written about, which was
to do with China. So tell us about that.
S2 (07:50):
Yes. This was a story broken by Reuters, which discovered
that American officials whose job it is to tear apart
and check sensitive bits of technology in US critical infrastructure systems,
had found some unexplained Chinese communications gear built into solar
(08:10):
energy systems that the US had imported from China. The
communications gear was built into inverters, which are used to
connect renewable energy systems like solar systems and wind turbines
into the electricity grid, so they're pretty important. These inverters,
according to the specifications, you know, the writing on the
(08:32):
tin didn't mention anything about communications gear, but all this
stuff was built in, and Reuters called them rogue gadgets
built into the solar panel systems and inverters that the
Chinese were selling to the US. The implication being that
it would allow Beijing remotely to shut down the US
(08:53):
systems that have embedded these communications gadgets. The further implication
is that there's much more of this stuff scattered across
US Infrastructure systems. And in fact, Samantha, seven years ago,
I interviewed the guy who was then retiring as the
head of the US NSA, the National Security Agency, which
(09:15):
does all their signals intercept spying. It's their top line
digital spying agency and online spying agency. And he was
an Admiral, Mike Rogers. And I said to him, how
much malware have the Chinese and the Russians planted in
US critical infrastructure systems? Now that you've retired from the government,
(09:38):
give us a clue. And his answer was startling. He said,
we don't know. We will only find out when there's
a crisis and they turn it off.
S1 (09:48):
It doesn't sound good. Hartcher.
S2 (09:50):
No. So what? The Reuters story from last week showed
up is that not only has that and that was
seven years ago, not only was that the situation then,
but it's continuing to unfold that Chinese suppliers are putting
potential shutdown Buttons into a critical infrastructure that is like
energy systems and no doubt much more that they're selling
(10:13):
to the US.
S1 (10:14):
And so just so I understand here, if this could
what trigger widespread blackouts and it could destabilize power grids
and what it could bring down all kinds of infrastructure,
what could stop trains, it could stop communications, all that
sort of stuff shuts down the electricity supply. Right.
S2 (10:27):
So the reason the US has now banned Chinese made EVs,
electric vehicles is because of the fear that Beijing could,
in the event of a crisis, order, that all the
Chinese vehicles supplied EVs supplied to the US be shut
down on American streets. Now there are millions of them.
(10:51):
So what happens if a million cars in a city
are suddenly disabled in the middle of the road? You
can imagine the scene. So that's why the US has
banned any more Chinese made EVs. The white House is
looking at banning other types of Chinese technology as well,
but it's that potential for sabotage in the event of
a crisis and internal chaos that the Chinese would have
(11:12):
the ability to create in the US, that the Americans
are now, you know, belatedly, perhaps alert to. So the
concern is that one day it will suit them to
shut down US cities and power grids and all the
rest of it. So that's the potential.
S1 (11:27):
Okay, so here's where we come to a very interesting
turning point in your last column. And it gets a
lot more hopeful because it sounds really bad, right. China
can create all sorts of chaos that you've just laid out.
But you say that this is actually an opportunity for Australia.
So how so?
S2 (11:40):
So you've got this new technology rapidly evolving and expanding
that's being built right now. And if it's in the US,
the Americans are fine with it. But what we now see,
thanks to Trump's deal with the UAE, is that the
Americans are prepared to allow their very best AI based
(12:03):
AI generating technology and the Nvidia Uh, chip to go
to foreign countries. And the concern is that these countries
aren't necessarily reliable. How is all of this an advantage,
or at least an opportunity for Australia?
S1 (12:19):
Yeah.
S2 (12:20):
Well, there's a couple of things here. First of all,
it it illuminates the urgent and really high priority need
for countries, including the US, to find trusted supply chains
where you can get whatever it is, your solar panels
or whatever, from a country where you know all the
(12:42):
components and elements are being supplied faithfully and without malicious
intent to your national security, and especially when that is
now going to apply to AI. So the opportunity here,
which was explained to me by Tarun Shahabi. Tarun Shahabi
is with Joe Biden's technology security chief in the Biden
(13:07):
White House. He was in Australia. He'd had a look around,
he'd talked to our experts, he'd talked to government officials,
and he said, you guys have a tremendous opportunity because
you are in the most trusted category of of US allies.
You have all the potential and advantages that are needed
to run a trusted AI industry. But you need a
(13:31):
national strategy and you need to get on with it.
But if you can. But if you can do that,
this is a sector where just building the infrastructure in
AI is already estimated to be worth about. Well, nearly
nearly half a trillion. Half 1 trillion USD to countries
that can participate in this. And what he was saying
(13:51):
to me is you are able and you should. And
with this newly elected or re-elected government, you're you're in
a perfect position to develop a strategy and get on
with it.
S1 (14:02):
Okay. Well, this is why I'm so happy to have
you in the studio today, Hartcher. Because I really wanted
to ask you if whether you think the Albanese government
will seize this opportunity because, well, I'd love you to
share with listeners something that you've told me in previous conversations,
which is that Australia has something of a history of
developing or being on the precipice of developing cutting edge
technology in various fields and then squandering it and then
(14:24):
just letting it go. So can you tell us just
really briefly, what's happened in Australia with, you know, our
involvement with development of the personal computer and with solar panels?
S2 (14:34):
Well, with the personal computer in the 1940s, Australia built
in the CSIRO built the world's fourth computer in the
modern sense of the word. And it was the first
ever that could play music apart from anything else.
S1 (14:51):
I'd love to. I would love to know what song
it played.
S2 (14:53):
Yes, I'm not sure.
S1 (14:54):
1949 it was sort of Begin the Beguine or something. Anyway, yeah, I.
S2 (14:57):
Need to dig into the archives to find out, but yeah.
So that was that was pretty good.
S1 (15:02):
Incredible.
S2 (15:02):
But the the government of the day decided that that
wasn't really a very promising industry. And they shut down
that line of experimentation and development. I mean, Australia could
have been at the very forefront of the computer revolution building, selling, exporting. Instead,
we just put it in a storeroom somewhere and shut
down the sector. You also mentioned solar panels.
S1 (15:24):
Yeah.
S2 (15:24):
Which today are about an $80 billion industry each year.
And the solar panel that is most commonly used and
sold around the world, made in China, was developed at
the University of New South Wales by a professor who's
still around. He's still alive. He had a Chinese PhD
(15:46):
student with whom he collaborated. The Chinese PhD student returned
to China legitimately. Um, had an entitlement to the to
the to the intellectual property, developed it and it's it
made him a billionaire and Australia is is importing panels
from China. So this is a very familiar story in
(16:07):
Australian history. We have brilliant scientists and researchers who make
all sorts of breakthroughs. And it's not just in hard technology.
I mean, Australia made the first feature length movie in
the world, The Story of Ned Kelly. That's right. And
we know about all sorts of innovations and all sorts
of fields. The secret ballot, for example.
S1 (16:26):
Yes. And didn't we also develop the cochlear implant or
am I making that one up?
S2 (16:29):
The cochlear implant was in Australia.
S1 (16:31):
Yeah. Incredible.
S2 (16:31):
And there are there are many more. I mean, it's
pretty dismal if you go through the list and see
all the missed opportunities. And so is this going to
be another one. That's that's that's the question.
S1 (16:41):
Well, this is what I wanted to ask you about
because I know when we last spoke about this unfortunate
phenomenon here, I think you said at the time that
there was a sort of cultural belief system of like,
not good enough. You know, we're not good enough. Oh,
you know, we're not going to step out in that
way because there was sort of perhaps an insecurity that,
you know, oh, no, we're not those people. So could
we become those people? Are we becoming those people? Is
(17:02):
Albanese going to be that person for us? Well, what's
your crystal.
S2 (17:06):
Ball? I won't burden you with my crystal ball, but
I will burden you with some points of evidence that
that indicate potential, at least in Australia. There's a lot
of work going on in computing with quantum computing. Now,
quantum computing is a is the potential supercharger of everything
else that computers do in in unimaginably fast and advanced ways,
(17:30):
applied together with AI. It's. Well, Scott Farquhar, who was
co-founder of Atlassian, I think he's one of Australia's 3
or 4 most wealthy people. He's now the chairman of
the Australia Tech Council. And he says that AI is
like a comet hitting a planet in the age of dinosaurs.
(17:53):
That is all the dinosaurs are going to have to
adapt pretty quickly or they're going to die out, but
that it is potential for new life forms, new industries
and technologies and companies and economic opportunities as well as
a threat. And that's I you put these two together
and it is transformative is an understatement. Obviously now the
(18:16):
Albanese government are breaking with all, you know, form in
Australia of complete lack of self-confidence, has backed a number
of quantum computing ventures. The biggest of them, Sai Quantum
in Brisbane, is a joint australia-us business and also backed
(18:38):
some other researchers as well at the University of New
South Wales. So they have shown the ability to break
through our suffocating history of, you know, self-doubt, nerve wracking,
hand wringing, self-doubt and back Australian innovation and research. So
(18:59):
there is a already underway an attempt to create an
Australian AI strategy that was started in the last term
of the Albanese government. We just need to see that
developed quickly, intelligently. Other bits have to go with it
as well. But it is. It is possible. It is
an option. Canberra is thinking about it. Let's hope they
(19:21):
can energize themselves to get on with it. Of course,
they've just removed the science and industry minister that was
in the job for the last three years, Ed Husic. Yes,
thanks to factional thuggery. But, um, they've got a new one.
Let's see what they can do.
S1 (19:37):
So, I mean, this could this could be a tipping
point moment for us hartcher for us nationally. It could
be a cultural and technological tipping point.
S2 (19:44):
Well, the Tech Council says that Australia could probably generate
just in the next five years out of AI alone,
200,000 jobs and over $150 billion of economic activity. I mean,
we go around all the time saying, oh, we need
more growth. We need more productivity. We need more innovation. Well,
you know, here's a couple of examples where it's staring
us in the face.
S1 (20:06):
Well, first of all, this is so news to me.
So I'm delighted to speak to you about it. But
also it's been so nice to be distracted from the
Qatari airplane and onto some of the other deals which, granted,
they sound like they're very risky, but it's great to
have my attention pointed to something else. So thank you
so much.
S2 (20:20):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (20:26):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(20:48):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morningedition newsletter to receive
a summary of the day's most important news in your
inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm
Samantha Selinger Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday,
May 21st. We know, we know. Donald Trump has gone
gangbusters in the Middle East, inking hundreds of millions of
dollars worth of deals left, right and centre. But hidden
(00:25):
within all the details about Trump's whirlwind trip, the Qatari jet,
his bromance with the Saudi crown prince is one deal
that you might have missed. Today, international and political editor
Peter Hartcher on Donald Trump's microchip deal with the United
Arab Emirates government, its inherent risks for the world and
(00:46):
potential opportunity for Australia. Okay, Peter, first off, we've got
to start with Donald Trump's bromance diplomacy. This is, of course,
with what he's been doing in the Middle East, and
the rest of us have been freaking out about this
luxury airplane that Trump has accepted from the Qatari government,
(01:07):
but not you, Hartcher, because you've zeroed in on another
deal he has just signed in Abu Dhabi. Tell me
about this.
S2 (01:14):
Well, I'm sure the $400 million 747 will help lubricate
Trump's consideration of some of these arrangements.
S3 (01:26):
Spectacle in the air and on the ground. As Qatar
rolled out the welcome mat for President Donald Trump amid
growing controversy over his decision to accept a luxury jet
from the nation.
S4 (01:38):
The fanfare began in the sky.
S2 (01:40):
Yes, his trip last late last week was to Saudi Arabia. Qatar.
Ably assisted by the offer of the plane, I'm sure.
Followed by the United Arab Emirates.
S5 (01:53):
Speaking to reporters on Air Force One, President Trump praised
the leaders of those countries after a trip marked by
business deals and lavish state dinners.
S6 (02:00):
It was a great four days. I think it was
a historic four days in all three countries. You can't
speak more highly. It's the job they've done.
S2 (02:11):
He didn't in his Middle East tour visit Israel, which
was a notable omission.
S1 (02:16):
Very notable.
S2 (02:18):
The common element in the Arab nations stop stopovers was
that all of them were were offering to invest large
sums in the US in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
S7 (02:31):
Trump hopes to make history with the deals he brings
back to the United States. On Thursday, the United Arab
Emirates reaffirmed its commitment to invest $1.4 trillion in the
fields of artificial intelligence, technology and energy in exchange for
access to advanced American microchips.
S2 (02:52):
Trump's deal the UAE alone has promised to invest 1.4
trillion USD in the US over ten years with the
newest latest increment towards that total being a $200 billion
package that Trump announced late last week while he was
in Abu Dhabi, the capital of the UAE.
S1 (03:14):
And specifically, though you have zeroed in on a deal
regarding computer chips. So tell us about this.
S2 (03:21):
Yeah, this is a really sensitive and difficult part of
this deal, and it's become very controversial in the US.
Most of the investment is unobjectionable traditional stuff. The United
Arab Emirates saying we'll you know, we'll buy more Boeing
jets for so many billions. We want to smelt aluminium
in America for so many more billions. All of that
stuff is traditional. But the really difficult part, and the
(03:43):
controversial part, is that Trump agreed to sell to allow
the sale to the UAE of hundreds of thousands, and
perhaps over time, many more of the cutting edge semiconductor
computer chips that are powering the evolution of artificial intelligence. Now,
(04:05):
these are chips that are so exotic and so difficult
to make that they are considered one of the last
remaining edges that the US has over China in technology,
because the Chinese have caught up or exceeded the US
in many areas, and they're subject to export controls so
that they can't get to China and many other countries.
(04:28):
They can only get to trusted allies. And both in
the US generally, but also in the Trump administration, a
lot of voices have been raised to say, well, hang on,
the UAE is not our most trusted ally. We can't
be sure that giving them access to these chips won't
end up with access to this technology going to China,
(04:48):
and we shouldn't be doing the deal. But Trump overlooked
all that and did the deal anyway.
S1 (04:53):
Okay, so tell us about this though, because you've written
that Washington bans the sale of these top line chips
to China. So what is so bad if China gets
Ahold of these chips?
S2 (05:02):
Because the fear in Washington is that if the Chinese
are able to get what is really one of the
very last remaining technological advantages that the US holds, and
I being a fast developing and unfolding technology with great
potential to transform all sorts of fields of human endeavor,
(05:24):
that it will allow a threshold moment of Chinese takeover
of US capability, that that is the concern. And I
you know, for most of us, we just still are
standing around gawking, fascinated at ChatGPT like.
S1 (05:44):
Chimps playing with sticks in the mud, chimps with.
S2 (05:45):
Sticks in the mud. That's right. And, you know, lighting
our first fire and standing back in shock and awe. But, yeah, um,
in the business world, it's gone far beyond that. That
was a couple of years ago now. Now the AI
models are being Trained and produced and applied to do
(06:06):
all sorts of things to transform everything. Simple stuff like
customer service through to industrial applications on company floors, but
also being used to to accelerate the development of other technologies.
So it's an accelerator of of all sorts of things
in a productivity enhancer. But it has great application in
defence as well and military applications. So this is why
(06:30):
it's such a sensitive technology as Joe Biden used to say,
America is competing with China for the 21st century. They're
the stakes. China wants to be the dominant global power,
displacing the US. The US is making it easy for them,
thanks to Donald Trump throwing away so many of the
established advantages that the US had built up over the
last century or two. And it's at it's at that crossroads.
(06:54):
Hence the concern over giving these guys the UAE access
to Nvidia chips to build. What they are saying is
they're going to be their own enormous AI I precinct
in the UAE. Like the Saudis, they see I as
being an important economic supplement to their post-oil economies because
(07:17):
they're all running out of oil.
S1 (07:19):
And just so I understand it, you know, if China
wants to be the dominant global power, and as you say,
I supercharges the capability of all kinds of things. When
you get down to brass tacks, is what we're talking
about here. Their army will be more powerful, their defense
capabilities will be more powerful, their spying techniques will be
more powerful. Is that what we're talking about? Essentially.
S2 (07:39):
Exactly what we're talking about.
S1 (07:40):
Right. Okay. So we've got this risk. But then this
leads us to the second bit of news that piqued
your interest last week that you've written about, which was
to do with China. So tell us about that.
S2 (07:50):
Yes. This was a story broken by Reuters, which discovered
that American officials whose job it is to tear apart
and check sensitive bits of technology in US critical infrastructure systems,
had found some unexplained Chinese communications gear built into solar
(08:10):
energy systems that the US had imported from China. The
communications gear was built into inverters, which are used to
connect renewable energy systems like solar systems and wind turbines
into the electricity grid, so they're pretty important. These inverters,
according to the specifications, you know, the writing on the
(08:32):
tin didn't mention anything about communications gear, but all this
stuff was built in, and Reuters called them rogue gadgets
built into the solar panel systems and inverters that the
Chinese were selling to the US. The implication being that
it would allow Beijing remotely to shut down the US
(08:53):
systems that have embedded these communications gadgets. The further implication
is that there's much more of this stuff scattered across
US Infrastructure systems. And in fact, Samantha, seven years ago,
I interviewed the guy who was then retiring as the
head of the US NSA, the National Security Agency, which
(09:15):
does all their signals intercept spying. It's their top line
digital spying agency and online spying agency. And he was
an Admiral, Mike Rogers. And I said to him, how
much malware have the Chinese and the Russians planted in
US critical infrastructure systems? Now that you've retired from the government,
(09:38):
give us a clue. And his answer was startling. He said,
we don't know. We will only find out when there's
a crisis and they turn it off.
S1 (09:48):
It doesn't sound good. Hartcher.
S2 (09:50):
No. So what? The Reuters story from last week showed
up is that not only has that and that was
seven years ago, not only was that the situation then,
but it's continuing to unfold that Chinese suppliers are putting
potential shutdown Buttons into a critical infrastructure that is like
energy systems and no doubt much more that they're selling
(10:13):
to the US.
S1 (10:14):
And so just so I understand here, if this could
what trigger widespread blackouts and it could destabilize power grids
and what it could bring down all kinds of infrastructure,
what could stop trains, it could stop communications, all that
sort of stuff shuts down the electricity supply. Right.
S2 (10:27):
So the reason the US has now banned Chinese made EVs,
electric vehicles is because of the fear that Beijing could,
in the event of a crisis, order, that all the
Chinese vehicles supplied EVs supplied to the US be shut
down on American streets. Now there are millions of them.
(10:51):
So what happens if a million cars in a city
are suddenly disabled in the middle of the road? You
can imagine the scene. So that's why the US has
banned any more Chinese made EVs. The white House is
looking at banning other types of Chinese technology as well,
but it's that potential for sabotage in the event of
a crisis and internal chaos that the Chinese would have
(11:12):
the ability to create in the US, that the Americans
are now, you know, belatedly, perhaps alert to. So the
concern is that one day it will suit them to
shut down US cities and power grids and all the
rest of it. So that's the potential.
S1 (11:27):
Okay, so here's where we come to a very interesting
turning point in your last column. And it gets a
lot more hopeful because it sounds really bad, right. China
can create all sorts of chaos that you've just laid out.
But you say that this is actually an opportunity for Australia.
So how so?
S2 (11:40):
So you've got this new technology rapidly evolving and expanding
that's being built right now. And if it's in the US,
the Americans are fine with it. But what we now see,
thanks to Trump's deal with the UAE, is that the
Americans are prepared to allow their very best AI based
(12:03):
AI generating technology and the Nvidia Uh, chip to go
to foreign countries. And the concern is that these countries
aren't necessarily reliable. How is all of this an advantage,
or at least an opportunity for Australia?
S1 (12:19):
Yeah.
S2 (12:20):
Well, there's a couple of things here. First of all,
it it illuminates the urgent and really high priority need
for countries, including the US, to find trusted supply chains
where you can get whatever it is, your solar panels
or whatever, from a country where you know all the
(12:42):
components and elements are being supplied faithfully and without malicious
intent to your national security, and especially when that is
now going to apply to AI. So the opportunity here,
which was explained to me by Tarun Shahabi. Tarun Shahabi
is with Joe Biden's technology security chief in the Biden
(13:07):
White House. He was in Australia. He'd had a look around,
he'd talked to our experts, he'd talked to government officials,
and he said, you guys have a tremendous opportunity because
you are in the most trusted category of of US allies.
You have all the potential and advantages that are needed
to run a trusted AI industry. But you need a
(13:31):
national strategy and you need to get on with it.
But if you can. But if you can do that,
this is a sector where just building the infrastructure in
AI is already estimated to be worth about. Well, nearly
nearly half a trillion. Half 1 trillion USD to countries
that can participate in this. And what he was saying
(13:51):
to me is you are able and you should. And
with this newly elected or re-elected government, you're you're in
a perfect position to develop a strategy and get on
with it.
S1 (14:02):
Okay. Well, this is why I'm so happy to have
you in the studio today, Hartcher. Because I really wanted
to ask you if whether you think the Albanese government
will seize this opportunity because, well, I'd love you to
share with listeners something that you've told me in previous conversations,
which is that Australia has something of a history of
developing or being on the precipice of developing cutting edge
technology in various fields and then squandering it and then
(14:24):
just letting it go. So can you tell us just
really briefly, what's happened in Australia with, you know, our
involvement with development of the personal computer and with solar panels?
S2 (14:34):
Well, with the personal computer in the 1940s, Australia built
in the CSIRO built the world's fourth computer in the
modern sense of the word. And it was the first
ever that could play music apart from anything else.
S1 (14:51):
I'd love to. I would love to know what song
it played.
S2 (14:53):
Yes, I'm not sure.
S1 (14:54):
1949 it was sort of Begin the Beguine or something. Anyway, yeah, I.
S2 (14:57):
Need to dig into the archives to find out, but yeah.
So that was that was pretty good.
S1 (15:02):
Incredible.
S2 (15:02):
But the the government of the day decided that that
wasn't really a very promising industry. And they shut down
that line of experimentation and development. I mean, Australia could
have been at the very forefront of the computer revolution building, selling, exporting. Instead,
we just put it in a storeroom somewhere and shut
down the sector. You also mentioned solar panels.
S1 (15:24):
Yeah.
S2 (15:24):
Which today are about an $80 billion industry each year.
And the solar panel that is most commonly used and
sold around the world, made in China, was developed at
the University of New South Wales by a professor who's
still around. He's still alive. He had a Chinese PhD
(15:46):
student with whom he collaborated. The Chinese PhD student returned
to China legitimately. Um, had an entitlement to the to
the to the intellectual property, developed it and it's it
made him a billionaire and Australia is is importing panels
from China. So this is a very familiar story in
(16:07):
Australian history. We have brilliant scientists and researchers who make
all sorts of breakthroughs. And it's not just in hard technology.
I mean, Australia made the first feature length movie in
the world, The Story of Ned Kelly. That's right. And
we know about all sorts of innovations and all sorts
of fields. The secret ballot, for example.
S1 (16:26):
Yes. And didn't we also develop the cochlear implant or
am I making that one up?
S2 (16:29):
The cochlear implant was in Australia.
S1 (16:31):
Yeah. Incredible.
S2 (16:31):
And there are there are many more. I mean, it's
pretty dismal if you go through the list and see
all the missed opportunities. And so is this going to
be another one. That's that's that's the question.
S1 (16:41):
Well, this is what I wanted to ask you about
because I know when we last spoke about this unfortunate
phenomenon here, I think you said at the time that
there was a sort of cultural belief system of like,
not good enough. You know, we're not good enough. Oh,
you know, we're not going to step out in that
way because there was sort of perhaps an insecurity that,
you know, oh, no, we're not those people. So could
we become those people? Are we becoming those people? Is
(17:02):
Albanese going to be that person for us? Well, what's
your crystal.
S2 (17:06):
Ball? I won't burden you with my crystal ball, but
I will burden you with some points of evidence that
that indicate potential, at least in Australia. There's a lot
of work going on in computing with quantum computing. Now,
quantum computing is a is the potential supercharger of everything
else that computers do in in unimaginably fast and advanced ways,
(17:30):
applied together with AI. It's. Well, Scott Farquhar, who was
co-founder of Atlassian, I think he's one of Australia's 3
or 4 most wealthy people. He's now the chairman of
the Australia Tech Council. And he says that AI is
like a comet hitting a planet in the age of dinosaurs.
(17:53):
That is all the dinosaurs are going to have to
adapt pretty quickly or they're going to die out, but
that it is potential for new life forms, new industries
and technologies and companies and economic opportunities as well as
a threat. And that's I you put these two together
and it is transformative is an understatement. Obviously now the
(18:16):
Albanese government are breaking with all, you know, form in
Australia of complete lack of self-confidence, has backed a number
of quantum computing ventures. The biggest of them, Sai Quantum
in Brisbane, is a joint australia-us business and also backed
(18:38):
some other researchers as well at the University of New
South Wales. So they have shown the ability to break
through our suffocating history of, you know, self-doubt, nerve wracking,
hand wringing, self-doubt and back Australian innovation and research. So
(18:59):
there is a already underway an attempt to create an
Australian AI strategy that was started in the last term
of the Albanese government. We just need to see that
developed quickly, intelligently. Other bits have to go with it
as well. But it is. It is possible. It is
an option. Canberra is thinking about it. Let's hope they
(19:21):
can energize themselves to get on with it. Of course,
they've just removed the science and industry minister that was
in the job for the last three years, Ed Husic. Yes,
thanks to factional thuggery. But, um, they've got a new one.
Let's see what they can do.
S1 (19:37):
So, I mean, this could this could be a tipping
point moment for us hartcher for us nationally. It could
be a cultural and technological tipping point.
S2 (19:44):
Well, the Tech Council says that Australia could probably generate
just in the next five years out of AI alone,
200,000 jobs and over $150 billion of economic activity. I mean,
we go around all the time saying, oh, we need
more growth. We need more productivity. We need more innovation. Well,
you know, here's a couple of examples where it's staring
us in the face.
S1 (20:06):
Well, first of all, this is so news to me.
So I'm delighted to speak to you about it. But
also it's been so nice to be distracted from the
Qatari airplane and onto some of the other deals which, granted,
they sound like they're very risky, but it's great to
have my attention pointed to something else. So thank you
so much.
S2 (20:20):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (20:26):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
(20:48):
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morningedition newsletter to receive
a summary of the day's most important news in your
inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes. I'm
Samantha Selinger Morris. Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!