The fallout when two disgraced men go on rehabilitation tours

One time high court justice Dyson Heydon and famed neurosurgeon Charlie Teo once held the futures of countless people in their hands.

But then came their downfall.

As one lawyer put of Dyson Heydon, after a high court inquiry in 2020 found that he had sexually harassed six young female associates, “At the same time he was dispensing justice in the highest court in Australia’s legal system, he was [engaged in] sexual harassment.”

And Charlie Teo? Two years after being found guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct - for, among other charges, taking financial advantage of a vulnerable patient - he was reduced to performing surgery overseas.

So what, then, to make of their so-called reputation rehabilitation tours?

Today, CBD columnist Kishor Napier-Raman, on the continued celebration of these men, in some of the most privileged circles in Australia.

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Wednesday,
July 16th. One time High Court justice Dyson Heydon and
famed neurosurgeon Charlie Teo once held the futures of countless

(00:23):
people in their hands. But then came their downfall. As
one lawyer put of Dyson Heydon after a High Court
inquiry found that he had sexually harassed six young female associates.
At the same time, he was dispensing justice in the
highest court in Australia's legal system. He was engaged in
sexual harassment and Charlie Teo, two years after being found

(00:47):
guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct for, among other charges, taking
financial advantage of a vulnerable patient, he was reduced to
performing surgery overseas. So what then, to make of their
so-called reputation rehabilitation tours. Today, CBD columnist Kishore Napier Raman,
on the continued celebration of these men in some of

(01:10):
the most privileged circles in Australia.

S2 (01:19):
So, Kishore, first, can you just take us back a little.

S1 (01:21):
Bit in time to remind us about why we know
these two men? You know, they were both previously of
very good standing before the Herald, led by investigative reporter
Kate McClymont, dug into entirely separate allegations that had been
made against them. So firstly, let's just talk about Charlie Teo.
Who is he and then what happened to him.

S3 (01:42):
So Charlie Teo is for a long time a kind
of neurosurgical hero. He was the guy who would do
the operations that other doctors were too afraid to do.
He would save people's lives. He would, you know, get
these inoperable tumors and give people more time. He was
sort of a hero of the medical establishment, and it
had a huge amount of media attention. A kind of
burgeoning celebrity profile because of all of that. But of course,

(02:08):
you know, that's the thing with heroes, sometimes there's a
little bit more to the narrative. So a series of
reports in this masthead revealed concerns about his judgment about
narcissistic behavior towards patients, towards nurses and other people in
the theater. Are habits of charging financially stressed people exorbitant fees.
And a lot of people came to him because they
saw him as a kind of last resort, and he

(02:31):
allegedly preyed on that kind of hope and charge families.
A lot of money operated on children who ended up
in vegetative states. That all culminated in him being found
guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct by a panel convened by
the Healthcare Complaints Commission's Professional Standards Committee, who placed restrictions
on his ability to practice as a surgeon.

S4 (02:52):
The days of Charlie Teo operating in this country are
almost certainly over the Health Care Complaints Commission today finding
him guilty of unsatisfactory professional conduct. Another neurosurgeon will now
have to check off on any operation. Doctor Teo wants
to perform in Australia.

S5 (03:10):
He's been the most high profile surgeon in Australia for decades,
lauded by some as a hero.

S3 (03:17):
I think some of the most damning allegations against Teo
came during those eight days of hearings before the New
South Wales Health Care Complaints Commission, where he faced accusations
of wrongdoing, that he misled patients, conducted dangerous surgeries and
failed to properly inform them or their families of the
risks involved. The committee found he did not obtain informed
consent from the patients prior to surgery. He charged an

(03:39):
inappropriate fee of $35,000 to one before surgery, as well
as speaking inappropriately to the patient's daughter after surgery. He
allegedly told her, would I do it all again? Oath
I would. You should be grateful. I've given the family
extra time now. Teo denied making those comments, but the
committee found that the doctor was a credible witness. So

(03:59):
as of a couple of years ago, Charlie is basically
unable to operate and practice as a surgeon in Australia,
which is quite a fall from someone who for many
years was sort of, as I said, feted as this
great hero to so many.

S1 (04:14):
And so what's he been up to since then? Like
what's he been doing since he was? Yeah, I guess
no longer able to conduct surgery here.

S3 (04:23):
I mean, there's no question that someone like Charlie is
obviously a brilliant medical mind, someone with a lot of
knowledge and has a lot to offer in his own way.
So he has been operating overseas. He's been running a
kind of brain cancer charity. But at the same time,
with Tio, there's been a kind of, I guess, a
sense of denial toward the allegations. He's used media appearances
to frame the cases against him as a kind of

(04:45):
witch hunt, and he has said things like that at
some of his big charity events and, you know, courted
a lot of those celebrity supporters. At the same time,
I think right before the Health Care Complaints Commission's ruling
came out about him, it was revealed that he was
going on the celebrity speakers circuit, which is where a
lot of people, I suppose, land when they have these

(05:06):
kinds of high profiles. It was rumoured that he would
get a fee of about $10,000 for a speech. So
clearly a lot of people, a lot of corporates are
willing to pay big money to hear what he has
to say, and he is going to provide the headline
entertainment at this Insurance industry summit next week with a
Q&A session with Conexus financial boss, Colin Tait.

S1 (05:27):
Okay, now I really want to know about this because
you've just reported that he is going to be speaking
about the subject of leadership, and I really want to
know whether this has raised any eyebrows, because we know
that Charlie Teo, you know, he was once accused of
telling staff to tie a patient down with sheets. He
was reprimanded by this professional standards committee for engaging in,

(05:48):
you know, quote unquote, improper conduct. So what are people
making about the fact that this person is being sought
after to teach others about leadership?

S3 (05:55):
Yeah. I mean, even before the kind of full scope
of the allegations against Te'o came out. Even before his
ability to practice as a surgeon was restricted. He's always
been someone who's had a lot of very high profile
sort of friends and supporters. So people like Steve Waugh,
the former Australian cricket captain, the boxer Anthony Mundine, the
Melbourne figure Mick Gatto, media types like Ben Fordham, Karl

(06:18):
Stefanovic have all kind of they've come to Charlie's charity events.
They're all these very big ritzy black tie dos. Some
have even showed up to his hearings to offer support
in 2023. So he's always had a lot of people
in his orbit of great influence. And he's at the
same time, he's a great talker. He can spin a yarn.
He can be very charismatic and charming as well. So,

(06:39):
you know, he's obviously got a lot to say. And
I think there would be people who were victims of
some surgeries for Te'o that went wrong. There were some
horrific stories that were reported in these mastheads about families
whose children's final years were tainted because they felt pressured
into undertaking very risky surgeries. I can imagine people like

(07:04):
that would see someone like him being feted as a
still a kind of great hero to the medical world,
and still someone that everyone wants to hear from, and
that can lecture the world about subjects like leadership. They
would probably get a kind of slightly bitter taste in
their mouth from from seeing something like that. But I
think the other thing to add is that this superannuation
conference that he's appearing at next week, they've promised that

(07:25):
they will kind of push back against him and ask
the tough questions. And, you know, to give maybe someone
like him the benefit of the doubt. It would be
interesting to hear someone like Teoh talk about how his
experiences having that, I guess, fall from grace of sorts
might have changed him, and to get someone like him
to reflect on something like that. But I guess it's
a question of whether we're going to hear that sense

(07:46):
of reflection.

S1 (07:53):
We'll be right back. Okay. Now, Kishore, I want to
move on to the second high profile Australian man who's
now being feted. I guess you could say, after a
period of exile. And this is former High Court justice
Dyson Heydon. So, first of all, tell us who he is.

S3 (08:14):
Well, Dyson Heydon was a justice of the High Court
of Australia, the top court in this country between 2003
and 2013. But he's also considered, like many High Court judges,
a brilliant legal mind. That's a phrase that they come
back to in the legal profession a lot. He's an
expert on contract law. He's particularly a hero to sort
of conservative jurists. He could have complained about the scourge

(08:37):
of judicial activism a lot before his time on the bench.
And then he was later appointed by then Prime Minister
Tony Abbott to run a royal commission into trade unions
in 2014. So he's a kind of figure of the right,
but a towering figure in the legal profession. His textbooks
are assigned reading in every law school in the country.
They're in every barristers chambers and law firm. His intellectual

(08:57):
shadow looms large over the law in Australia.

S2 (09:00):
And I don't think.

S1 (09:01):
It'll be too extreme to say that he really did
experience a very public downfall. So what findings were made
against him?

S3 (09:09):
Yeah, it was a very, very public and very dramatic downfall. Yeah.
So right off the bat, there was a workplace, not
a criminal investigation into Heydon's conduct. An investigation commissioned by
the High Court found that Heydon had sexually harassed six
young female associates.

S4 (09:28):
The prime minister hasn't ruled out stripping disgraced former High
Court judge Dyson Heydon of his Order of Australia honours,
in light of disturbing sexual harassment allegations. An increasing number
of alleged victims are now pursuing compensation, their lawyer describing
Heydon's conduct as the legal profession's dirtiest secret.

S3 (09:48):
The investigation found that Heydon engaged in a pattern of
conduct of sexual harassment, which included attempted to kiss female associates,
touching them and luring them into his hotel rooms. These
were women in his 20s working for him. Um, and simultaneously,
an investigation by this masthead uncovered further allegations, including claims
that he indecently assaulted women in the legal profession. So

(10:12):
these allegations against him were very prominent. It led to
the High Court issuing an apology to his former associates
that was rubber stamped by Susan Kiefel, who was then
the chief justice of the High Court at the time. Um,
and it did really lead to a period of exile
from Hayden. It was a real kind of watershed MeToo
moment for the law in Australia. I mean, he sort

(10:34):
of was really ostracised by a profession that had for
so long put him on a pedestal. He sort of
faded away from public view. And for a lot of
people in the law, this was seen as like such
a huge moment because the profession had for so long.
I mean, there's talk about issues around sexual harassment, but
so much had kind of happened in the shadows. It

(10:54):
was viewed as a big moment, but also, I guess,
the tip of the iceberg.

S2 (11:00):
And so tell us, I guess.

S1 (11:01):
About some of the consequences of Dyson Heydon's behaviour towards
some of his female associates, because some of them have
made public statements that really the consequences were catastrophic for them.

S3 (11:11):
Yeah. I mean, to me, this is the great, great
tragedy of the Heydon affair. I mean, if you are
an associate to a justice of the High Court, you
are the creme de la creme of the legal profession.
You are a rising star. You know, these seven judges
take one associate for a year. And those people, you know,
often go on to become High Court. Well, senior jurists themselves,

(11:32):
they become barristers, silks, judges. These are the top, uh,
young lawyers in the country. And most of them who
are working with Heydon are never really returned to the law.
And we talk so much about how Hayden was this
brilliant legal mind. But, you know, I think about these
women who never got the chance to become brilliant legal
minds themselves. And the other thing, of course, is that

(11:54):
when you are a High Court associate or a judge's associate.
It's a it's a unique and slightly strange relationship. You
act as a confidant, a secretary, a collaborator on their judgments,
a therapist, an all manner of things. And you work
behind closed doors in very close proximity to to someone
who's often from a completely different generation from you. So
it's an interesting relationship and one where you could be

(12:17):
placed in sort of a vulnerable, vulnerable position because of
the power dynamic between the associate and the judge. And
I think the thing about this, the allegations made against
him or the findings made against Hayden, was that it
really put the nature of the judge and associate relationship
in the spotlight.

S2 (12:35):
And I know.

S1 (12:36):
We heard some devastating comments. I believe that Chelsea Talbot,
she was a former associate of his who, like you say,
she's one of the examples of one of the women
who did leave the law because of her experience. She
said she left because, quote, the culture was broken from
the top down. And this really stunned me, though she
said she felt she wouldn't be safe. Quote from powerful

(12:56):
men like Mr. Hayden. Even if I reported them. I mean,
that sort of sticks with you, doesn't it?

S3 (13:00):
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I know a lot of people
in legal circles, and there are a lot of people
that whisper and talk about prominent men. You obviously can't
name them. There's so much that you can and can't say.
But there are so many whispers about the nature of
the profession. So I think when those findings about Hayden
came to the surface, a lot of women in the

(13:22):
profession were like, finally we're being heard. We're being seen.
It was it was considered such a major moment, not
just because these issues had happened in the shadows for
so long. This was happening after the MeToo wave had
kind of crested around the world. But because Hayden was
someone of such great stature who commanded such huge respect
in the legal profession.

S1 (13:42):
But that brings us to this moment or the last
few months, because after a period of exile, Dyson Hayden
has self-published a book, and in doing so, he's been
feted by some very high profile legal figures attending notable
legal functions. So tell us about that.

S3 (13:57):
Yeah. So after, um, the first the allegations against Hayden
first came out, his his publisher dropped him. Um, so
he's had to self-publish the next volume of his big
tome on contract law. This is a sizable book. And
to a lot of lawyers, it is a work of
considerable legal scholarship. He remains the formidable legal mind, the
brilliant legal mind that, um won him so much respect
and saw him ascend to the highest ranks of the

(14:19):
legal profession and the judiciary. But it seems like in
response to his new book, a lot of people have
kind of forgotten or glossed over what happened just five
years ago, and a lot of high profile legal figures
have come and celebrated the book, including people that might,
rightly or wrongly, be considered heroes to a lot of progressives.
So former High Court Justice Michael Kirby wrote the foreword

(14:40):
to the book at a launch for Hayden's book earlier
this year, we reported that, uh, Federal Court Justice Michael Lee,
who's famous for presiding over the Brittany Higgins Bruce Lehrmann
defamation case last year and is one of the kind
of better known figures in the judiciary, was also there.
You had Justice Ian Jackman, you had the president of
the New South Wales Court of Appeal, Julie Ward, so very,
very senior legal figures who attended that launch. And obviously

(15:04):
he's also sort of popped up at various events at
the courts. He's slowly, I guess, re-emerging into the legal profession,
and he's re-emerging with the help of some of the
most senior, most respected and most authoritative figures in the law.

S1 (15:17):
And it's not just recent events. He's actually got an
upcoming speaking gig next month. So tell us about that.

S3 (15:22):
Yes. So Hayden is going to be speaking at the
Samuel Griffith Society's conference. So this is a kind of,
I guess, right of centre conservative constitutional law organisation that's
hosting him at a conference next month. Other guests there
also include former Attorney-General Christian Porter, who himself had an
allegation of historic rape made against him, which he obviously
has firmly denied. He later quit politics and is working

(15:44):
as a barrister. He's another guest at that event. You've
got current High Court judge Simon Stuart who's also going
to be there. So it's quite a big event to
a lot of conservative legal figures, and Hayden is going
to speak.

S1 (15:56):
Well, let's talk about those who are upset about this
rehabilitation tour that he's embarking on. You know, being invited
to prestigious legal events and everything else we've talked about.
What sort of message, I guess, do they think that
this sends? You know, that he's still being embraced by
this community, even in the wake of being found by
a workplace investigation, not a criminal investigation, but being found

(16:16):
to have sexually harassed young women?

S3 (16:20):
So there is a sense of unease among younger female
lawyers in particular, who are just sort of, I guess,
for want of a better word, queasy about his rehabilitation.
I think there is a feeling of disappointment among some people.
I mean, when this investigation into Hayden was first revealed
in 2020, there was obviously a feeling of relief by
some people. But there was also this sense that, you know,

(16:41):
MeToo had reached the legal profession, that the floodgates would open.
And for a long time, I think a lot of lawyers,
a lot of legal bodies, a lot of firms really
responded to that in quite a positive way of like,
you know, being like, you know, we need to change
our culture. We need to get better. And five years on,
I guess his re-emergence into the scene, sort of, I
guess mates, has made some people doubt the sincerity of

(17:05):
a lot of that and doubt the kind of longevity
of a lot of that, and question whether, you know,
the law really takes these issues as seriously as it should.

S1 (17:13):
And I mean, one of Dyson Heydon's victims, his former
associate Rachael Patterson Collins, she recently wrote a really damning
opinion piece for our mastheads. And she said that, you know,
while his writing may be publishable, that doesn't entitle him
to public rehabilitation. And she said that giving him a
speaking slot and failing to censor his actions sends a
message that sexual harassment will be tolerated and that even

(17:35):
beyond that, in doing that, it actually invites future abuse.
Do you think, or have you heard of anybody else
feeling the same way, you know, behind the scenes?

S3 (17:44):
Yeah, I mean, there are certainly people in the legal
profession who feel uncomfortable about it, who feel unhappy about it.
And I guess this is a kind of debate that
happens throughout society as to what we do with people
who have committed bad behavior in the past. How does
rehabilitation work? To what extent are they owed rehabilitation? What
should we as a society give them? Should we let

(18:05):
them get up and speak? I mean, I think it's
a live debate that continues to rage and people obviously
have different views on it. Look, I think some people
are very unhappy about him returning to the fold, but
at the same time, he's got some very prominent supporters,
to quote one, the president of this society that is
bringing him back, Alan Myers KC, who's one of Australia's
richest lawyers and a very well-connected person in the business

(18:27):
and legal communities, called Hayden a heroic legal scholar and
framed his attending this conference as a kind of push
back at people trying to stifle his work. So his
supporters say that Hayden is this great mind, and the
sort of backlash towards him have stifled the ability for
us to kind of like, have his work out in
the open. But at the same time, I just, I
think it's often worth thinking about what I was saying

(18:48):
earlier with the fact that by virtue of Hayden's actions,
the next great legal minds might have never gotten the
chance to rise to the top.

S1 (18:58):
Wow, there's a lot to take in there, Kishore. But
thank you so much for your time.

S3 (19:02):
My pleasure. Sam.

S1 (19:09):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
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(19:30):
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