July 9, 2025 • 19 mins
For many of us, Cambodia has long been synonymous with tragedy, and the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime, which killed between 1.5 and 3 million Cambodians.
But, underneath our noses, Cambodia has more recently been roiling from tension with its neighbours. And when a military standoff recently led to the death of a Cambodian soldier, it set off an unexpected chain of political fallout.
Today, southeast Asia correspondent Zach Hope, on what happened to Suon Roun on a contested mountain top. And why it just may bring down the Thai prime minister.
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S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
July 10th. For many of us, Cambodia has long been
synonymous with tragedy and the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime, which
(00:23):
killed between 1.5 and 3 million Cambodians. But underneath our noses,
Cambodia has more recently been roiling from tension with its neighbors.
And when a military standoff recently led to the death
of a Cambodian soldier, it set off an unexpected chain
of political fallout. Today, Southeast Asia correspondent Zach Hope on
(00:48):
what happened to sue and ruin on a contested mountaintop
and why it just may bring down the Thai prime minister.
S2 (01:02):
So, Zach, you have been reporting from an area called
the Emerald Triangle. So can you just tell us what
that is and why we're talking about this region that
I imagine many of us would not have heard of
before today?
S3 (01:12):
Yeah. The Emerald Triangle is a quite remote area of
mountainous jungle. It's, uh, sort of the convergence of the
borders of Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. A lot of that
borderland in the Emerald Triangle is contested, and so is
(01:35):
like close to 200km of other border with, um, with
Thailand and, uh, and Cambodia. So Thailand and Cambodia and
the Emerald Triangle have had troops stationed up there for
a very long time now.
S4 (01:48):
Tension between the neighboring countries remains high, despite an agreement
to pull back temporarily from contested areas. Neither side are
taking any chances. Thailand and Cambodia have fought over sovereignty
at Undemarcated points along their shared border for more than
a century.
S3 (02:06):
Thailand have alleged that Cambodia have been encroaching into new
areas of the Emerald Triangle, in violation of previous agreements.
Cambodia says that they have been occupying a particular trench
up there for for many years, so there's dispute there.
S4 (02:26):
Cambodia accuses Thai troops of opening fire during what it
calls a routine patrol late last month, killing one of
its soldiers. Thai authorities say it was Cambodian forces that
fired first after entering a disputed area.
S3 (02:41):
It all sort of came to a head on May 28th,
when there was a gunfight between Thai and Cambodian soldiers
there on one of the mountain tops.
S2 (02:56):
Well, let's get into this, because I think you are
the first journalist to have spoken to the family of
a soldier who was killed in this dispute in May.
So tell us about that. And I guess then you
know the significance of his death beyond, of course, this
being a tragedy for his family.
S3 (03:10):
Yeah. So the fallout from what happened there on May 28th.
It's sort of a series of cascading events. The fallout
which we'll get into has been quite, quite huge. But
also there is, you know, a man died in this gunfight,
and his death has sort of been overshadowed by the
(03:32):
political events that followed. So we were interested in learning
a bit more about him. We learned of his village,
which is a very small village in in northern Cambodia.
It's not on Google Maps. Trying to get there was
a bit like sort of navigating in the 90s, you know,
before there were Google Maps, it sort of had to
stop every kilometer or so on these dirt, boggy roads
(03:54):
asking if we're going in the right direction. But yes,
we did. We found the family and we had a
good long chat with his brother and his mother as well.
85 year old Maheep.
S2 (04:05):
And yeah, before we get into the significance, I guess,
tell us a little bit about this family, because it's
certainly stark reading. You spoke to his mother, who is
now 85 years old, and unfortunately, she really is the
human face of, I think, what could be described as
just untold suffering by so many Cambodian people in the
wake of, you know, the Khmer Rouge, which was, of course,
that genocidal regime that just, you know, killed millions of people.
(04:29):
So tell us about both Sue and Ruan and his family.
S3 (04:32):
Yeah. His mother, Maheep, has, um, just a really tragic story.
And there are just so many tragic stories in Cambodia,
and it sort of boggles the mind what the Khmer
Rouge did to its own people.
S5 (04:48):
On April 17th, 1975, the Khmer Rouge communist regime led
by Pol Pot seized the capital of Phnom Penh. The
Khmer Rouge persecuted the educated city dwellers, who they believed
to be tainted by Western capitalist ideas and placed them
in so-called reeducation centers or prison camps. More than 2
million people died between 1975 and 1979, in what were
(05:12):
called the killing Fields, through executions, forced labor and starvation.
S3 (05:18):
About 2 million people, possibly roughly a third of the population,
were killed by the by the Khmer Rouge. Maheep, uh,
85 years old. Very, very rare in Cambodia for someone
to live that long because they've lived they've survived the
Khmer Rouge, but also they've survived the tough conditions of
sort of living in, um, the peasant conditions of, of
(05:38):
rural Cambodia. She had 12 children. Um, son run on
May 28th. Became the eighth of those children, um to die.
Several of them were killed by the Khmer Rouge in
the 1990s. And even though the Khmer Rouge was not, um,
sort of in Phnom Penh at that time, they were
(06:01):
still controlling large amounts of the country, and we're still
quite a force. Um, and that was still quite the
Khmer Rouge was still quite active in this village and
in this area right up until 1997. So, look, a
handful of her children died to the Khmer Rouge. Her
husband was killed by the Khmer Rouge. Two others died
from malaria when the Khmer Rouge was was, um, sort
(06:22):
of in, uh, full power, I guess from 75 to 79. Yeah.
Another died from disease and a car accident. Just an awful,
horrible story. She lives in essentially what is a wooden box?
Six people live in there with her. It's up on stilts.
There's no bathroom. There's no certainly no cooking equipment and
(06:42):
certainly no air conditioning. It's really sort of spartan stuff,
you know, and she just sort of carries on in
this village. She's got like 30 grandchildren and great grandchildren
who are there, and she takes a lot of pleasure
from them. They were sort of dancing around and playing
well while she was chatting to us.
S2 (07:00):
And then of course, this eighth child of hers, Sue
and ruin. He was 48 when he was killed. So
what did the family tell you about his death and
the circumstances of his death?
S3 (07:09):
Yes. So he was a 48 year old. He had
first joined the Cambodian military in the mid 90s. He
was also injured in a Khmer Rouge attack, and it
took him a long time to recover from those injuries.
He rejoined the military in 2008, and essentially since then
he had been stationed up in the Emerald Triangle. So
(07:31):
the allegations are in dispute. Essentially, there's two different versions.
The Thais say that the Cambodians shot first. Um, they
say that Thailand says that their soldiers went over to
discuss this, what they perceived as some encroachment on the mountain,
and they went up to discuss things following procedures or whatever.
(07:54):
And they said there was a misunderstanding, that Cambodians misunderstood
the situation and fired first. Well, that's not the story
that has been relayed to someone's Rules. Family. The commander
who was with him up on the mountains had told them.
And we've heard this also from other soldiers who, you know,
need to say weren't actually there. But we've heard this
(08:15):
from other soldiers and relayed from the commander who was there,
that it was about 530 in the morning, and the
Thai soldiers came up to the trench and opened fire,
while the Cambodians were sort of making their coffee and getting,
getting dressed and so on. Ron was killed in that,
that brief gunfire that lasted for 10 to 20 minutes,
(08:37):
depending on who you ask. The Cambodians believe that some
Thai soldiers were also injured, but Thailand has denied this,
and they've also denied that they were responsible for firing
the first shots.
S2 (08:50):
And can you tell us about the fallout that has resulted?
Because it really does go beyond the soldier that's been
killed there?
S3 (08:56):
Yes. So this is how it has become a global story.
And this is because following this gunfight. This has stirred
a lot of patriotic sentiment in Thailand and Cambodia, which
have long been arguing over borders. On June 15th, the
Thai Prime Minister Shinawatra phoned Cambodia's de facto leader Hun Sen. Now,
(09:21):
Hun Sen has ruled Cambodia for about 40 years, most
mostly as prime minister. He's recently handed over the prime
ministership to his son, Hun Minute. But Hun Sen is
still calling the shots. Essentially, he's still the Senate president.
He's still the president of the Cambodian People's Party. And
he's made it very clear during this whole dispute that
(09:45):
he is still the man in charge. And when the
Thai Prime Minister, Pei Tong Tan wanted to call someone
in Cambodia to discuss this border dispute and the border closures,
the border restrictions and the chaos that was still happening
up at the border. She called Hun Sen. That phone
conversation Was promptly leaked by Hun Sen, and that has
(10:07):
created a world of hurt for Pei Tong.
S2 (10:09):
Tan will tell us this because this was absolutely outrageous
to Thais when this conversation leaked. So tell us about
the substance of this conversation, because certainly, yeah, it unleashed
a lot of very upset feelings.
S3 (10:22):
Yeah. So this is when the story really took off.
And Pei Tong Tan when she called Hun Sen, now
their old sort of family friends, essentially, they've known each
other for 30 years. The Shinawatra and Hun Sen, she
addressed him in the phone call as uncle. She was
very deferential, very sort of fawning is the perception among Thais.
(10:43):
She's saying, we'll do anything you want.
S6 (10:49):
We begin in Thailand, where the Prime minister's coalition government
is on the brink of collapse following a controversial phone
call with the former Cambodian leader. In the call, Tong
Tan Shinawatra addresses Hun Sen as uncle as they negotiate
a volatile border dispute.
S3 (11:05):
Also in that phone call, she criticized a senior Thai
military man.
S6 (11:11):
She also appears to undermine a key Thai military commander.
The leaked recording led to a major coalition partner pulling
out of the fragile government led by the Thai party.
Protesters gathered outside government House dancing and calling for the
leader to resign.
S3 (11:27):
Which is a major faux pas in Thailand. She said
that he was an opponent. She said that he was, quote,
trying to look cool and that didn't go down well
at all amongst Thais. So when this phone conversation leaked
and Thais heard that, yeah, they were really outraged that
(11:48):
their prime minister didn't appear to be sticking up for Thailand,
in fact, appeared to be doing the opposite. So Patong
Tan's already pretty fragile coalition began to crumble. A group
of 36 senators then referred her to the Constitutional Court,
effectively petitioning the Constitutional Court. Whether she's up to the
(12:10):
job or not. Of defending the country. Of protecting Thailand.
So on July 1st, the Constitutional Court decided it would
take on that case. And while it considers that case,
she is now being suspended. So Pitong chan is the
fourth of her family to be prime minister, and all
of them have, uh, have exited that role, uh, either
(12:34):
via coups or court decisions. And we don't know how
the court will rule, but I think a lot of
people think that this is it for Pitong Tan that
she won't be coming back.
S2 (12:43):
And just one follow up question on that conversation, because
we know that 36 senators, when they brought that petition
to the Constitutional Court, they've accused her of dishonesty and
breach of ethical standards in relation to the phone call.
We also know from your reporting that she says, you know,
her true intention in that conversation was to maintain the
sovereignty of Thailand, save the lives of the soldiers. But
(13:05):
is there some suggestion here that really, this private conversation
reveals that perhaps she was happy to jeopardize Thailand's sovereignty
with her sort of fawning responses to Hun Sen.
S3 (13:16):
Well, she also didn't expect the phone conversation to be leaked,
and she's apologized for what she said in that. But
she's also been very clear that Thai sovereignty is obviously
very important to her. And the way that she was
talking to Hun Sen, an older man who they've known
for like 30 years, has been friends with the family.
That was sort of a negotiating tactic that she wanted
(13:37):
to come in and sort of behave this way to
help get the best outcome for Thailand. That's what she said.
Following the leak of the phone call, which Hun Sen
recorded and then sent to about 80 people, of course
it found its way into the media and the fallout
has just been quite spectacular between those families.
S2 (13:56):
We'll be right back. Okay, well, let's get to Hun
Sen's side then. Why did he leak the phone call? Because,
as you say, their clans have had close ties for decades.
And you spoke to an expert that referred to him
doing this, as, you know, his latest game of three
dimensional chess. So what is going on there?
S3 (14:16):
Yeah. Well, Hun Sen, he's, you know, Cambodia's got a
pretty wild political scene, and Hun Sen has survived for
40 years. He's no dummy. He can be brutal. Cambodia
is there's suppression that media is suppressed, civil society is
suppressed in Cambodia. And Hun Sen has been accused of
ruling by intimidation. But he's also a very a very
(14:40):
clever man. Now, why did he want to leak this
phone conversation? Well, he's quite angry at at the border restrictions,
the tit for tat that happened after the May 28th gunfight.
But yes, analysts sort of one expert has sort of
said to me that, you know, she believes this is
more of a nationalistic play by Hun Sen, that Cambodia
(15:00):
is facing some pretty serious economic headwinds. We've got the
the Trump tariff decision as well, where Cambodia is in
line for some tariffs up in the high 40s. Look,
the the worst in the region, the highest in the region. Uh,
and so there's a feeling that that perhaps this was
a play by Hun Sen to essentially distract from some
(15:24):
of these problems that are happening and really play into
what is a very strong feeling among Cambodians about sovereignty,
about borders, um, this sort of nationalistic, patriotic feeling that
they have. And this includes, you know, in the, in
the diaspora as well, Cambodians are very passionate about their borders.
And a lot of this area involves this dispute of borders,
(15:46):
involves sacred temples as well. So him leaking this phone call,
he's just made a more powerful neighbor look weak. And
he's positioned himself as the defender of Cambodia. Now, it's
also worth mentioning here that these tensions are still really
high on the borders. And, uh, there are some ancient,
(16:07):
you know, 11th century temples that are under dispute. And
Cambodia has filed some cases to the International Court of Justice,
hoping to have the ICJ rule on those. Thailand isn't
so keen on that. It's had some some bad outcomes
from the ICJ in the past regarding some border disputes.
(16:27):
It wants to settle it bilaterally. So this whole this
whole thing is going to play out for a long time.
And still even now, you know, more than a month
since that gunfight, there is still really high tensions at
some of these places up on the border.
S2 (16:40):
Okay. So obviously this is going to be a long
running issue. But just to wrap up, Zach, I mean,
what next in the immediate term because obviously the Thai
prime minister is suspended. So what does that mean for
the leadership of the country. And then what are people
talking about? If her leadership crumbles, which of course, many
people are anticipating.
S3 (16:57):
Yeah. Well, that's a really good question. You know, I
said that Cambodia's got a pretty sort of wild political scene. Well,
Thailand's is even wilder. I mean, Thailand is Thailand is
more of a democracy than Cambodia. So the machinations going
on behind the scenes with the sort of the royalists
and the military establishment. Now, what's going to happen with Patong? Well,
(17:20):
the court will take its time to consider that issue.
There's a sense that her party, Putai, is still very
much wanted by the royalists and the military establishment there,
because it's sort of a buffer against these sort of
ultra progressive parties that have not only made headway, but
(17:41):
one of them actually has won the election. But, you know,
they were suspended and dissolved also through the Constitutional Court.
So there's all these sort of machinations going on behind
the scenes. So, you know, your guess is as good
as mine as to how this is all going to unfold.
But yes, it has been said to me that Putai
is still seen as as a bit of a buffer
(18:02):
between that progressive movement that is really taking hold in Thailand.
S2 (18:06):
Well, Zach, we are so lucky you are there on
the ground reporting on this. So thank you so much
for your time.
S3 (18:13):
No worries. Thank you.
S2 (18:22):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
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(18:44):
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Subscribe and to stay up to date. Sign up to
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day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links
are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks
for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
July 10th. For many of us, Cambodia has long been
synonymous with tragedy and the genocidal Khmer Rouge regime, which
(00:23):
killed between 1.5 and 3 million Cambodians. But underneath our noses,
Cambodia has more recently been roiling from tension with its neighbors.
And when a military standoff recently led to the death
of a Cambodian soldier, it set off an unexpected chain
of political fallout. Today, Southeast Asia correspondent Zach Hope on
(00:48):
what happened to sue and ruin on a contested mountaintop
and why it just may bring down the Thai prime minister.
S2 (01:02):
So, Zach, you have been reporting from an area called
the Emerald Triangle. So can you just tell us what
that is and why we're talking about this region that
I imagine many of us would not have heard of
before today?
S3 (01:12):
Yeah. The Emerald Triangle is a quite remote area of
mountainous jungle. It's, uh, sort of the convergence of the
borders of Thailand, Cambodia and Laos. A lot of that
borderland in the Emerald Triangle is contested, and so is
(01:35):
like close to 200km of other border with, um, with
Thailand and, uh, and Cambodia. So Thailand and Cambodia and
the Emerald Triangle have had troops stationed up there for
a very long time now.
S4 (01:48):
Tension between the neighboring countries remains high, despite an agreement
to pull back temporarily from contested areas. Neither side are
taking any chances. Thailand and Cambodia have fought over sovereignty
at Undemarcated points along their shared border for more than
a century.
S3 (02:06):
Thailand have alleged that Cambodia have been encroaching into new
areas of the Emerald Triangle, in violation of previous agreements.
Cambodia says that they have been occupying a particular trench
up there for for many years, so there's dispute there.
S4 (02:26):
Cambodia accuses Thai troops of opening fire during what it
calls a routine patrol late last month, killing one of
its soldiers. Thai authorities say it was Cambodian forces that
fired first after entering a disputed area.
S3 (02:41):
It all sort of came to a head on May 28th,
when there was a gunfight between Thai and Cambodian soldiers
there on one of the mountain tops.
S2 (02:56):
Well, let's get into this, because I think you are
the first journalist to have spoken to the family of
a soldier who was killed in this dispute in May.
So tell us about that. And I guess then you
know the significance of his death beyond, of course, this
being a tragedy for his family.
S3 (03:10):
Yeah. So the fallout from what happened there on May 28th.
It's sort of a series of cascading events. The fallout
which we'll get into has been quite, quite huge. But
also there is, you know, a man died in this gunfight,
and his death has sort of been overshadowed by the
(03:32):
political events that followed. So we were interested in learning
a bit more about him. We learned of his village,
which is a very small village in in northern Cambodia.
It's not on Google Maps. Trying to get there was
a bit like sort of navigating in the 90s, you know,
before there were Google Maps, it sort of had to
stop every kilometer or so on these dirt, boggy roads
(03:54):
asking if we're going in the right direction. But yes,
we did. We found the family and we had a
good long chat with his brother and his mother as well.
85 year old Maheep.
S2 (04:05):
And yeah, before we get into the significance, I guess,
tell us a little bit about this family, because it's
certainly stark reading. You spoke to his mother, who is
now 85 years old, and unfortunately, she really is the
human face of, I think, what could be described as
just untold suffering by so many Cambodian people in the
wake of, you know, the Khmer Rouge, which was, of course,
that genocidal regime that just, you know, killed millions of people.
(04:29):
So tell us about both Sue and Ruan and his family.
S3 (04:32):
Yeah. His mother, Maheep, has, um, just a really tragic story.
And there are just so many tragic stories in Cambodia,
and it sort of boggles the mind what the Khmer
Rouge did to its own people.
S5 (04:48):
On April 17th, 1975, the Khmer Rouge communist regime led
by Pol Pot seized the capital of Phnom Penh. The
Khmer Rouge persecuted the educated city dwellers, who they believed
to be tainted by Western capitalist ideas and placed them
in so-called reeducation centers or prison camps. More than 2
million people died between 1975 and 1979, in what were
(05:12):
called the killing Fields, through executions, forced labor and starvation.
S3 (05:18):
About 2 million people, possibly roughly a third of the population,
were killed by the by the Khmer Rouge. Maheep, uh,
85 years old. Very, very rare in Cambodia for someone
to live that long because they've lived they've survived the
Khmer Rouge, but also they've survived the tough conditions of
sort of living in, um, the peasant conditions of, of
(05:38):
rural Cambodia. She had 12 children. Um, son run on
May 28th. Became the eighth of those children, um to die.
Several of them were killed by the Khmer Rouge in
the 1990s. And even though the Khmer Rouge was not, um,
sort of in Phnom Penh at that time, they were
(06:01):
still controlling large amounts of the country, and we're still
quite a force. Um, and that was still quite the
Khmer Rouge was still quite active in this village and
in this area right up until 1997. So, look, a
handful of her children died to the Khmer Rouge. Her
husband was killed by the Khmer Rouge. Two others died
from malaria when the Khmer Rouge was was, um, sort
(06:22):
of in, uh, full power, I guess from 75 to 79. Yeah.
Another died from disease and a car accident. Just an awful,
horrible story. She lives in essentially what is a wooden box?
Six people live in there with her. It's up on stilts.
There's no bathroom. There's no certainly no cooking equipment and
(06:42):
certainly no air conditioning. It's really sort of spartan stuff,
you know, and she just sort of carries on in
this village. She's got like 30 grandchildren and great grandchildren
who are there, and she takes a lot of pleasure
from them. They were sort of dancing around and playing
well while she was chatting to us.
S2 (07:00):
And then of course, this eighth child of hers, Sue
and ruin. He was 48 when he was killed. So
what did the family tell you about his death and
the circumstances of his death?
S3 (07:09):
Yes. So he was a 48 year old. He had
first joined the Cambodian military in the mid 90s. He
was also injured in a Khmer Rouge attack, and it
took him a long time to recover from those injuries.
He rejoined the military in 2008, and essentially since then
he had been stationed up in the Emerald Triangle. So
(07:31):
the allegations are in dispute. Essentially, there's two different versions.
The Thais say that the Cambodians shot first. Um, they
say that Thailand says that their soldiers went over to
discuss this, what they perceived as some encroachment on the mountain,
and they went up to discuss things following procedures or whatever.
(07:54):
And they said there was a misunderstanding, that Cambodians misunderstood
the situation and fired first. Well, that's not the story
that has been relayed to someone's Rules. Family. The commander
who was with him up on the mountains had told them.
And we've heard this also from other soldiers who, you know,
need to say weren't actually there. But we've heard this
(08:15):
from other soldiers and relayed from the commander who was there,
that it was about 530 in the morning, and the
Thai soldiers came up to the trench and opened fire,
while the Cambodians were sort of making their coffee and getting,
getting dressed and so on. Ron was killed in that,
that brief gunfire that lasted for 10 to 20 minutes,
(08:37):
depending on who you ask. The Cambodians believe that some
Thai soldiers were also injured, but Thailand has denied this,
and they've also denied that they were responsible for firing
the first shots.
S2 (08:50):
And can you tell us about the fallout that has resulted?
Because it really does go beyond the soldier that's been
killed there?
S3 (08:56):
Yes. So this is how it has become a global story.
And this is because following this gunfight. This has stirred
a lot of patriotic sentiment in Thailand and Cambodia, which
have long been arguing over borders. On June 15th, the
Thai Prime Minister Shinawatra phoned Cambodia's de facto leader Hun Sen. Now,
(09:21):
Hun Sen has ruled Cambodia for about 40 years, most
mostly as prime minister. He's recently handed over the prime
ministership to his son, Hun Minute. But Hun Sen is
still calling the shots. Essentially, he's still the Senate president.
He's still the president of the Cambodian People's Party. And
he's made it very clear during this whole dispute that
(09:45):
he is still the man in charge. And when the
Thai Prime Minister, Pei Tong Tan wanted to call someone
in Cambodia to discuss this border dispute and the border closures,
the border restrictions and the chaos that was still happening
up at the border. She called Hun Sen. That phone
conversation Was promptly leaked by Hun Sen, and that has
(10:07):
created a world of hurt for Pei Tong.
S2 (10:09):
Tan will tell us this because this was absolutely outrageous
to Thais when this conversation leaked. So tell us about
the substance of this conversation, because certainly, yeah, it unleashed
a lot of very upset feelings.
S3 (10:22):
Yeah. So this is when the story really took off.
And Pei Tong Tan when she called Hun Sen, now
their old sort of family friends, essentially, they've known each
other for 30 years. The Shinawatra and Hun Sen, she
addressed him in the phone call as uncle. She was
very deferential, very sort of fawning is the perception among Thais.
(10:43):
She's saying, we'll do anything you want.
S6 (10:49):
We begin in Thailand, where the Prime minister's coalition government
is on the brink of collapse following a controversial phone
call with the former Cambodian leader. In the call, Tong
Tan Shinawatra addresses Hun Sen as uncle as they negotiate
a volatile border dispute.
S3 (11:05):
Also in that phone call, she criticized a senior Thai
military man.
S6 (11:11):
She also appears to undermine a key Thai military commander.
The leaked recording led to a major coalition partner pulling
out of the fragile government led by the Thai party.
Protesters gathered outside government House dancing and calling for the
leader to resign.
S3 (11:27):
Which is a major faux pas in Thailand. She said
that he was an opponent. She said that he was, quote,
trying to look cool and that didn't go down well
at all amongst Thais. So when this phone conversation leaked
and Thais heard that, yeah, they were really outraged that
(11:48):
their prime minister didn't appear to be sticking up for Thailand,
in fact, appeared to be doing the opposite. So Patong
Tan's already pretty fragile coalition began to crumble. A group
of 36 senators then referred her to the Constitutional Court,
effectively petitioning the Constitutional Court. Whether she's up to the
(12:10):
job or not. Of defending the country. Of protecting Thailand.
So on July 1st, the Constitutional Court decided it would
take on that case. And while it considers that case,
she is now being suspended. So Pitong chan is the
fourth of her family to be prime minister, and all
of them have, uh, have exited that role, uh, either
(12:34):
via coups or court decisions. And we don't know how
the court will rule, but I think a lot of
people think that this is it for Pitong Tan that
she won't be coming back.
S2 (12:43):
And just one follow up question on that conversation, because
we know that 36 senators, when they brought that petition
to the Constitutional Court, they've accused her of dishonesty and
breach of ethical standards in relation to the phone call.
We also know from your reporting that she says, you know,
her true intention in that conversation was to maintain the
sovereignty of Thailand, save the lives of the soldiers. But
(13:05):
is there some suggestion here that really, this private conversation
reveals that perhaps she was happy to jeopardize Thailand's sovereignty
with her sort of fawning responses to Hun Sen.
S3 (13:16):
Well, she also didn't expect the phone conversation to be leaked,
and she's apologized for what she said in that. But
she's also been very clear that Thai sovereignty is obviously
very important to her. And the way that she was
talking to Hun Sen, an older man who they've known
for like 30 years, has been friends with the family.
That was sort of a negotiating tactic that she wanted
(13:37):
to come in and sort of behave this way to
help get the best outcome for Thailand. That's what she said.
Following the leak of the phone call, which Hun Sen
recorded and then sent to about 80 people, of course
it found its way into the media and the fallout
has just been quite spectacular between those families.
S2 (13:56):
We'll be right back. Okay, well, let's get to Hun
Sen's side then. Why did he leak the phone call? Because,
as you say, their clans have had close ties for decades.
And you spoke to an expert that referred to him
doing this, as, you know, his latest game of three
dimensional chess. So what is going on there?
S3 (14:16):
Yeah. Well, Hun Sen, he's, you know, Cambodia's got a
pretty wild political scene, and Hun Sen has survived for
40 years. He's no dummy. He can be brutal. Cambodia
is there's suppression that media is suppressed, civil society is
suppressed in Cambodia. And Hun Sen has been accused of
ruling by intimidation. But he's also a very a very
(14:40):
clever man. Now, why did he want to leak this
phone conversation? Well, he's quite angry at at the border restrictions,
the tit for tat that happened after the May 28th gunfight.
But yes, analysts sort of one expert has sort of
said to me that, you know, she believes this is
more of a nationalistic play by Hun Sen, that Cambodia
(15:00):
is facing some pretty serious economic headwinds. We've got the
the Trump tariff decision as well, where Cambodia is in
line for some tariffs up in the high 40s. Look,
the the worst in the region, the highest in the region. Uh,
and so there's a feeling that that perhaps this was
a play by Hun Sen to essentially distract from some
(15:24):
of these problems that are happening and really play into
what is a very strong feeling among Cambodians about sovereignty,
about borders, um, this sort of nationalistic, patriotic feeling that
they have. And this includes, you know, in the, in
the diaspora as well, Cambodians are very passionate about their borders.
And a lot of this area involves this dispute of borders,
(15:46):
involves sacred temples as well. So him leaking this phone call,
he's just made a more powerful neighbor look weak. And
he's positioned himself as the defender of Cambodia. Now, it's
also worth mentioning here that these tensions are still really
high on the borders. And, uh, there are some ancient,
(16:07):
you know, 11th century temples that are under dispute. And
Cambodia has filed some cases to the International Court of Justice,
hoping to have the ICJ rule on those. Thailand isn't
so keen on that. It's had some some bad outcomes
from the ICJ in the past regarding some border disputes.
(16:27):
It wants to settle it bilaterally. So this whole this
whole thing is going to play out for a long time.
And still even now, you know, more than a month
since that gunfight, there is still really high tensions at
some of these places up on the border.
S2 (16:40):
Okay. So obviously this is going to be a long
running issue. But just to wrap up, Zach, I mean,
what next in the immediate term because obviously the Thai
prime minister is suspended. So what does that mean for
the leadership of the country. And then what are people
talking about? If her leadership crumbles, which of course, many
people are anticipating.
S3 (16:57):
Yeah. Well, that's a really good question. You know, I
said that Cambodia's got a pretty sort of wild political scene. Well,
Thailand's is even wilder. I mean, Thailand is Thailand is
more of a democracy than Cambodia. So the machinations going
on behind the scenes with the sort of the royalists
and the military establishment. Now, what's going to happen with Patong? Well,
(17:20):
the court will take its time to consider that issue.
There's a sense that her party, Putai, is still very
much wanted by the royalists and the military establishment there,
because it's sort of a buffer against these sort of
ultra progressive parties that have not only made headway, but
(17:41):
one of them actually has won the election. But, you know,
they were suspended and dissolved also through the Constitutional Court.
So there's all these sort of machinations going on behind
the scenes. So, you know, your guess is as good
as mine as to how this is all going to unfold.
But yes, it has been said to me that Putai
is still seen as as a bit of a buffer
(18:02):
between that progressive movement that is really taking hold in Thailand.
S2 (18:06):
Well, Zach, we are so lucky you are there on
the ground reporting on this. So thank you so much
for your time.
S3 (18:13):
No worries. Thank you.
S2 (18:22):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Kai Wong. Our
executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head
of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon as
they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions,
(18:44):
so to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au.
Subscribe and to stay up to date. Sign up to
our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary of the
day's most important news in your inbox every morning. Links
are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks
for listening.
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