September 4, 2025 • 26 mins
Political debate was dominated this week by the topic of immigration after anti-immigration rallies in major cities last weekend.
Politicians from both major parties tried to strike a balance between listening to people’s legitimate concerns while condemning the extremist fringe of the anti-immigration movement.
Chief political correspondent Paul Sakkal and federal political correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos join host Jacqueline Maley.
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S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, September 5th.
This week, the political debate was dominated by the topic
of immigration following anti-immigration rallies in major cities last weekend.
(00:23):
Politicians from both major parties tried to strike a balance
between listening to people's legitimate concerns, while also condemning the
extremist fringe of the anti-immigration movement. Here to discuss, we
have our chief political correspondent, Paul Circle and federal political
correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Welcome, guys.
S2 (00:45):
Hi, Jack. Morning.
S1 (00:46):
So, Paul, last weekend we saw these big anti-immigration rallies
being held across the country. They were called the March
for Australia rallies. They made the news, obviously, and there
was particularly some violence at the Melbourne rally where we
saw neo-Nazis showing up. And one was even sort of
given permission to take the microphone and publicly address the
rally in a sort of endorsement almost of that particular group.
(01:07):
And this was despite an insistence from the organizers that
the rallies were attended by mainstream Australians. What reaction did
we see this week from Canberra?
S3 (01:16):
Yeah, they were big rallies. I mean, they weren't as
violent or as incendiary as the Cronulla riots, but they
certainly carried echoes of it in terms of the size
and the tenor of some of the debate at these rallies.
In terms of how the reaction played out in Canberra
this week, the Prime Minister was particularly keen to strike
a measured tone. He wanted to acknowledge the legitimate concerns
(01:36):
of some of the people at the rally.
S4 (01:38):
Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns
that these anti-immigration rallies this weekend?
S5 (01:44):
Of course, there's always good people will turn up to
demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have
here is neo-Nazis being given a platform.
S3 (01:57):
He didn't want to cast them all as extremists. He
wanted to acknowledge that there has been high migration post
Covid after a period of low migration when lockdowns occurred,
which coincided with a housing crisis and people feeling like
their lot in life was getting worse. We had an
inflation crisis as well, and when those problems are occurring
in society, there's a common tendency, as demonstrated through history,
(02:20):
to blame other groups in society, including migrants. So you
saw Albanese trying to kind of sit in the middle
of this debate. Sussan Ley tried to set the agenda
earlier in the week by saying that the Prime Minister
needed to show leadership at this time of kind of fraying,
fraying of our social fabric. But the coalition's message got
muddied as the week went on, because some of the
(02:42):
more forceful right wingers in the party, including Jacinta Price
and Alex Antic, uh, used some, at times controversial language
to talk about this issue. Jacinta price draped herself in
the Australian flag, which is the garb that many of
these protesters were using on Sunday.
S6 (02:58):
Senator McKim, on a point of order.
S7 (03:00):
Yes. Thank you. President, I asked for a ruling. Please.
On whether the senator is who's wrapped in the national
flag at the moment is contravening the standing order that
prevents props.
S4 (03:14):
Thank you, Acting President. So disappointing from the Greens, but
also so typical. You can wear a kippah in here.
Perhaps you should remove that article from you whenever you
walk through these chambers. For the benefit of all Australians
in this country. Yes. Snark all you like. It's revolting.
S3 (03:32):
Alex Antic, the, uh, most far right liberal senator, suggested
that the neo-Nazi group led by Thomas Sewell, who we saw, uh,
harass Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press conference,
was effectively in some sort of psyop operation with ASIO.
And they're not a real organisation. And this is all
a government set up to try and create the impression
(03:52):
that neo-Nazis are a prominent force when actually Anti-migration views
are widespread. So there were some out there comments in
the Parliament this week and worth just very briefly putting
it into a bigger context. We've had the ASIO boss,
Mike Burgess, talking for years about the increased risk of
politically motivated violence. At the same time as populist movements
(04:14):
are on the rise in the US with Trump and
in large parts of Europe. So all of these extremist
elements and these risks we've been hearing a lot about
are kind of coalescing and creating this big national conversation
around radicalism in Australia.
S1 (04:30):
Yeah. And sort of some elements are hopping off the
internet and into real life tasks. You had a look
at immigration figures this week. So let's just go straight
to the facts, because there is this perception, rightly or wrongly,
among some sectors of the Australian population, that there are
too many migrants, and particularly in our big cities where
you you do see a lot of, I think probably
temporary migrants and people blame them, perhaps for the housing
(04:52):
crisis and also maybe for sort of infrastructure gluts or
kind of, you know, jamming up infrastructure. What are the
actual facts on immigration Migration figures.
S8 (05:00):
Well, if you look at the last two decades. So
since about zero four. In the Howard era, you've had
a pretty steady approach to migration, where the population is
generally grown between 1 and 2% every year. Um, and
since 2004, migrants have contributed more to population growth than
(05:21):
natural increase, which refers to the number of people being
born minus the number of people who died. So migrants
have made up the majority of population growth for the
last 20 years. Um, the big anomaly, I suppose, as
Paul said, happened during Covid. So we were on track
at that. That kind of steady rate of growth between
1 and 2%. Then borders were shut. You had this,
(05:43):
this historic dip in, um, migration to negative migration. And
then when borders reopened, you had a historic surge. Um,
now when kind of, uh, people in the protests have
and it happens in Parliament as well. Bring up this
argument that a million people came into the country in
(06:06):
two years. That's true. Um, but what that doesn't kind
of account for was it came off the back of
negative migration and actually the budget papers. So the budget
papers forecast migration for the next four years, every year. Um,
and they've gotten all muddled up with all these kind
of contradictory expectations, not being able to predict when borders
(06:26):
will open or close things like that. But for example,
if you go back to the 2019 budget delivered by
the Morrison government, which is the the last pre Covid budget,
I suppose, and you look at its forecast for population
growth and you, which was a kind of steady steady
rate and you take that forward. The population um would
(06:50):
have been in 24 in 2024. Sorry. It would have
been almost 28 million. What we ended up with was
27.4 84 million. So the population levels that we see
now are roughly on par with what governments were supposedly
planning for 5 or 6 years ago. So that's when
you get to this kind of argument that governments have
(07:10):
been ushering in this kind of mass migration by stealth. Um,
that doesn't add up when you look at what governments
have been planning for, and then you get into a
reasonable debate about housing and infrastructure and all of that.
S1 (07:22):
Yeah. Yeah. So basically, Covid kind of really stuffed everything up.
And I think that, um, or stuffed up all the projections. Okay. So, Paul,
let's talk about the political debate around migration, because as
you say, it has become sort of globalized. Both labor
and the coalition know that some voters, um, have concerns
around there being too much immigration. And both parties went
to the election with promises to cut immigration. That obviously
(07:46):
didn't work so well for the coalition. But Labor's won government.
Are they going to cut immigration?
S3 (07:52):
Yeah, well Labor's continuing on with their policies that they
had before the last election to bring immigration down from
those post Covid highs. Peter Dutton turned this into one
of the most salient issues of the last term. Not
off his own bat. He picked up on something that
was occurring in the community. I'm interested to ask now,
is it right to say that the post Covid numbers
(08:13):
did lead to a much higher perception of high immigration
and a perception that immigrants were fuelling social issues in Australia?
Or is that a bigger feature of political debate than
it has been in polling of individuals?
S8 (08:26):
I think it depends who you are and where you live, right,
and what your economic concerns are. I think research tells
us that that people who are concerned about economic security
or housing insecurity are more likely to be concerned about immigration. Um,
you know, you had in this recent period that really
intersect with the housing debate, but but in previous times,
(08:46):
you know, you've got traffic and congestion issues, and that
also turns into a conversation about immigration. So I think
everyone's kind of reality on that front will be different.
But there's no doubt that, um, the political narrative, I
think has has helped to kind of consolidate that argument.
(09:07):
And I think that that housing immigration link there is
there there is a relationship there. But immigration is not
the only factor that influences housing. Housing shortages, housing prices
is it's a it's a much more complicated picture. What
I find really interesting is just talking to people in Parliament,
including coalition ministers, MPs, post-election, and a lot of them
(09:29):
will say people didn't buy it like we were. We
were drawing this simplistic link. Being like migrants and international
students are the reasons you can't buy a house. And
it didn't land with people. And I think you saw
that in the election result. Um, which is why I
find it quite interesting that the coalition, in many ways
this week is still kind of giving this conversation a
(09:54):
similar framing.
S1 (09:56):
The coalition leadership tried to strike a pretty even tone
on this stuff, but we did see Coalition Senator Jacinta
Nampijinpa price makes them particularly sort of controversial comments about
the Indian community in particular that she got backlash on.
S8 (10:11):
So you've got kind of Lee, I think, trying to
play both sides a little bit, being very kind of
much more empathetic, kind of where all migrants. I'm a migrant,
we love the migrant communities, while at the same time
kind of weighing into this debate around the housing link,
which didn't quite work for the coalition last time. And
then as she's she's really trying to walk that line.
(10:35):
You've got Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, who comes on afternoon briefing
and after a bit of questioning from the host, basically
alleges that labor is bringing in specific groups of migrants
so that it can win votes.
S9 (10:48):
So who do you think they're trying to bring in
to to make them vote for labor?
S4 (10:52):
Well, those that are more labor leaning that that are
likely to be.
S9 (10:56):
But there are right wing or left wing people in
every community. Right. So who specifically are they?
S8 (11:01):
Now Australia's got a non-discriminatory migration system that that doesn't
preference nationality, but price basically, um, contradicts that. And then
when pressed on who is labor trying to bring in
singles out the Indian community?
S4 (11:14):
Well, as we've seen, you know, I mean, you yourself
mentioned that, um, there is a concern with the Indian
community and only because there's been large numbers and we
can see that reflected in the way that the community
votes for labor. At the same time.
S8 (11:27):
This is probably worth acknowledging the overwhelming kind of target
in terms of anti-immigration sentiment on the weekend. And you
have several really upsetting, um, reports of racism that people
experienced on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne and so forth.
And then you have price now, a Liberal senator, going
(11:48):
on national television and basically validating that concern that that
led to significant racism on, on our streets.
S1 (11:56):
Well, and not just that saying that their queue jumpers almost.
S8 (11:59):
Yeah, yeah. And and, um, the laborers vote stacking and. Yeah. No,
no kind of credible allegation, no evidence for it. There
was I think it's safe to say that Lee wasn't
happy about that situation.
S10 (12:15):
Our Australian Indian community are amazing. You contribute as Australian
Indians so much to our country. We know how hard
you work. Your family values and the contribution you make
across this country. And as Opposition leader, I value that incredibly.
S8 (12:33):
Price had issued a statement about an hour afterwards. Um,
but again, her statement was Australia has a non-discriminatory migration program.
Suggestions otherwise are a mistake. There wasn't a kind of
a lot of ownership over that mistake.
S1 (12:52):
And no apology to the Indian community.
S8 (12:53):
And no apology. And then she came out the next
day and said, I don't think I need to apologize.
So I and the Indian community, it is it is
a significant voting block because it's a lot of people
and labor and the coalition both caught that community. There
is a lot of active outreach among Indian Australians, and
there are a lot of them are very politically engaged. Um,
so I don't think this bodes well for the coalition
(13:15):
and Sussan Ley, as she vows to rebuild the coalition's
reputation in multicultural communities that ultimately contributed to its massive defeat.
S1 (13:24):
Okay. But I just want to look at the overseas context,
because we do look overseas and we see that in
the UK, in the United States, in Germany, just to
name a few countries, there is some fraying of social
cohesion that is due to conflict over migration. I guess
you could say, um, and tensions and you have xenophobic
protests against asylum seekers in the United Kingdom, for example. How, Paul,
(13:47):
are Australian politicians sort of very concerned or very alive
to the possibility that that kind of stuff could be
imported here?
S3 (13:54):
Well, I think they definitely are. Um, and in a
number on a number of different fronts in politics. Now,
you see the internet kind of shrinking the world movements
that pop up in a, in a like minded Western
country can very quickly be replicated by people in, in,
in another country because they're able to, um, pick up
the same tactics and talking points. And you see that
from the US. You're seeing that now, um, some of
(14:17):
the UK protests that have occurred in small towns looked
a little bit like the ones we saw on the
weekend here. Um, there was a huge, uh, online discussion
in Australia about the so-called UK migrant gang rape crisis, which, um,
quickly turned into an issue last year because of its
prominence on Elon Musks platform. And then I saw lots
(14:37):
of Australian far right debate just in in the weeks
after that. So you're seeing this, this kind of aping of, um,
of events overseas and I think a point, a just
a point of difference between us and some of these
other countries is what we've we've been able to do
in terms of securing our borders over the last 20 years.
(14:58):
John Howard used to talk about keeping control of borders
and keeping public kind of acceptance of the migration program alive,
and key to that is stopping the sense that the
borders are porous and that small boats are flowing in, um,
without any control, which feeds a sense of anxiety in
the community. He brought in the Pacific solution. Labour obviously
(15:20):
overturned that had a huge political crisis over it. Under
the Rudd Gillard governments, um, reluctantly brought back, uh, a
stronger border.
S1 (15:30):
Policy.
S3 (15:31):
Yeah. The Abbott government brought in boat turn back policies.
And now that's an absolute fixture of labor politics, as
demonstrated by Tony Burke last week signing another very expensive
deal with Nauru. So we do have a fundamental difference with,
for example, the UK, which has a very, very porous
border at its at its English Channel crossing. But we
are seeing on the, on the fringes of our society,
(15:53):
not quite in the centre as it is in other
parts of the west, but on the fringes, a growing
sense that there are too many migrants in our community
that certain pockets of, particularly Melbourne and Sydney, are starting
to not look like Australia, that that white Australians, particularly
lower middle class and working class white Australians, don't have
(16:14):
prosperous lives because heavy industries have closed, because the fossil
fuel industry is, is, is dying, and that the globalisation
that we've seen in the last 30 years has not
benefited some groups of Australians. And that, you know, we've
used high levels of migration to grow our economy instead
of trying to find solutions to actually grow productivity.
S1 (16:35):
Yeah. So that's what I find interesting because as you,
you've just taken us through a potted history of the
sort of asylum seeker debate, which was a huge issue,
like when I was in Canberra, it was a huge
political issue, and it's basically settled and it's basically bipartisan
now that we have a very quote unquote strong border
protection policy. But now the debate has actually shifted to
completely legal migration. Migration that is sanctioned and indeed encouraged
(16:58):
by our government to prop up economic growth and to
prop up the population. But I suppose you see a
whole cohort of voters who feel like they've never signed
on to that, who feel like they've never specifically agreed
to having these levels of what, you know, the right
wingers call mass immigration, which is not a term that
I would use. But I guess what I'm getting at
is whether or not both sides of politics are now Labour,
because they're in government, have actually done enough to proactively
(17:21):
convince or show Australians the benefits of migration to our
country in terms of services, in terms of population growth,
in terms of economic growth, and, you know, specialised workers
that we desperately need.
S8 (17:33):
I kind of I don't know. And this is a
conversation I think I've been having a lot this week.
And I think it just normal people would be having
because it, it does touch everyone. I feel like a
lot of Australians do get that. I think most Australians
do get that. I think most people have. But I think,
I think.
S3 (17:49):
It's in the centre of.
S8 (17:50):
Interesting.
S1 (17:51):
Is it being led by politicians, though, and particularly to
the cohort of Australians who feel that there may be
getting ripped off by, by, um, you know, the immigration
system as it is.
S8 (18:01):
I wonder when we're talking about that cohort of people
and I think like, like, you know, recent surveys will
tell us, you know, there is a kind of higher
level than usual of concern about immigration as a trend
in Australia, whether that whole group of people are the
kind of people who are so motivated by that concern
(18:22):
that they'd come out and march. I don't know, I
think I kind of just like putting it in perspective
a bit. I feel like this cohort is a a
group of people. I think other people have kind of
less passionate feelings, perhaps, about the rate of immigration, even
if there is a level of underlying discomfort or whatnot.
(18:44):
But I feel like that cohort, probably the ones that,
you know, turned up to the rally, I don't feel
like they're kind of views on this thing are really
being guided by mainstream politicians like it's coming more from, like,
the right wing.
S1 (18:59):
Yeah, sure. And I think a lot of it is
as as we say, a lot of it's influenced by
internet culture. But I guess I'm asking about the the political,
the political, the onus on politicians to make proactively a
case for immigration and its benefits. Have they failed?
S8 (19:14):
I feel like they like. And hearing them talk about
this week. Right? Everyone will be like, everyone's a migrant,
migrants have made great contributions to our country, etc., etc. um,
whether it's that that line's not convincing or it feels
a bit basic at this point. Um, whether it's a
matter of being more upfront when it comes to policy
(19:35):
platforms at elections, around your forecasts, around immigration, so people
feel like they're on the same page or.
S1 (19:42):
Feel like they're being informed.
S3 (19:43):
And the government hit its migration numbers for months and
just released it quietly this week.
S8 (19:48):
Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think that's quite like that's again,
that goes back to the permanence.
S1 (19:52):
I mean, and the reality is that most ordinary voters
aren't going to be looking at the migration projections in
the budget papers, but I just wonder if there's a
little bit of, um, a little bit of reticence on
the part of politicians from both sides of politics to
admit how much immigration drives economic growth and how much
we need and desperately rely upon migrants, in particular in
(20:13):
sectors like the aged care industry and in healthcare generally,
and even in industries like financial services, where I think
it's about a quarter of workers are from overseas. So yeah,
I just wonder if they're a little bit reluctant to
to admit that publicly. I Paul, I want to ask
about the neo-Nazis that we saw in Melbourne this week,
which strangely seems to be, I don't know, a comfortable
(20:36):
home for neo-Nazis.
S3 (20:37):
The point you just made. Sorry, can I just make
one more point on the reluctance, um, just before we
move on, because there was a good example this week. So, yeah,
I do think there is reluctance because if you're a
treasurer and you've just gone through a period of, uh,
really damp economic growth, only kept out of recession by
by high migration levels. You're effectively admitting that without bringing
(21:00):
in a lot of migrants, you have run the economy
into the ground. So we've had we've had we've had
uncreative policy making and a lack of bravery in policy making,
which has created a productivity problem. That's been where where
a gap has been plugged by migration. And just this
week we saw how crucial and you mentioned aged care, Jackie, um,
how crucial migrant workers are because the government delayed home
(21:22):
care packages and aged care created a bit of a
mini crisis in Canberra this week, forcing the government to
backtrack and roll out aged care home packages more quickly,
and a key reason the government cited for not being
able to care for people in their homes is that
we don't have enough workers in Australia willing to do
these jobs. We need more migration to plug these skills gaps.
So for all the concern about housing, legitimate or not,
(21:43):
there's a lot of concern on the other side around
skill shortages, which we saw in Covid. And we still
see now in a bunch of key industries.
S1 (21:50):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Peter Dutton in particular,
when they had their sort of big targets to slash
migration that they took to the election never really addressed
the difficulty of the fact that the economy basically wasn't
going to run, you know, on the levels of migration,
that he.
S3 (22:07):
Was totally incoherent policy from Dutton with no solution on
how that would work.
S1 (22:11):
Economically. Yeah. So let's talk about the neo-Nazis. As reluctant
as I am to give them any airtime. We did
see them surface in Melbourne. We saw a neo-Nazi leader
bail up Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press
conference in a public place, which was a little bit
of a security risk. How can politicians or how are
the politicians at a federal level, responding to this sort
of creep of extremism into the mainstream debate that you see.
S8 (22:35):
For example, the Prime Minister grappling with this in his
tone and remarks this week. Um, this very careful, um,
you know, there are good people not we don't want
to demonise everyone. You know, he was pressed on this
in the caucus as well because not all labor MPs
were were We're satisfied, um, with that response. Ed Husic
(22:56):
came out a few days later and said, I think
something like, show me a good fascist. Um, the Prime
Minister's justification was that it goes, I guess, back to
the kind of, um, internet radicalization theme, um, which is
by demonizing these people publicly, you could push them into
(23:18):
a rabbit hole. And I think the other big thing
that counter-extremism experts will say when it comes to, um,
right wing radical groups is and we saw this around
Welcome to Country around Anzac Day as well. They are
trying to hijack mainstream debate. They are making what sounds
like rational argument to kind of bring people more into
(23:39):
a racist and extremist ideology. Um, I think you've seen
the Prime Minister be very cautious about playing into their
hand there. Um, I think that is what is also
probably a bit interesting about the way that the coalition
has responded. Like the coalition, I think where the where
(24:02):
the Labour government has tried to move on from a
legitimate discussion of immigration this week, it's acknowledged it, but
it hasn't wanted to engage with it. You've seen the
coalition engage with it more. Um, you had one nation
try and launch a Senate inquiry into immigration. The coalition
then kind of jumped on that and amended it slightly,
(24:22):
also trying to call for this debate into immigration. Where
that all started was with these weekend rallies, which we
saw were hijacked by neo-Nazi groups. Um, so I think
there is there are different levels of kind of caution
around the parliament in terms of how political debate should
(24:42):
or should not engage with that kind of extremist element
to some of these conversations taking place.
S1 (24:49):
I mean, it is actually really difficult line to walk.
S3 (24:52):
And I think media is grappling with this in the
same way. Like, they're so in-your-face and so disgusting that
it demands attention, but they.
S1 (25:01):
Can't not report.
S3 (25:01):
It. The attention.
S1 (25:02):
It's a phenomenon that exists. But but yeah, I don't
want to talk about neo-Nazis on this podcast ever. If
I had my druthers. No.
S3 (25:09):
And they have a there's a document from 2021 which
Cam Wilson from Crikey reported. It's from the National Socialist Network.
So the group that Thomas Sowell runs and it's a
handbook on, quote, media baiting. And it quotes media baiting
is a huge portion of our recruitment drive. There are
currently hundreds of minor nationalist groups in Australia, but none
of them ever amount to anything without media attention, even
(25:30):
if the articles are mostly negative. The readers of the
article are not the target audience. We're trying to win
over youth who are already sympathetic to the cause and
are seeking an outlet for their views. So inadvertently, we
are driving their recruitment.
S1 (25:43):
We're being used as tools. Yeah, we're.
S3 (25:45):
Doing it right now. Again.
S1 (25:47):
Let's stop talking about neo-Nazis then. Guys, this has been
such an interesting discussion. I wish we could talk for longer,
but we're out of time and I'm sure we'll revisit it.
Task particular thanks to you. We haven't seen you in
a while. It's a pleasure.
S8 (25:58):
Pleasure to be here. Thanks.
S1 (25:59):
Thanks, guys.
S3 (26:00):
Thank you. Bye.
S1 (26:10):
Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance
from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is
Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you
listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with
all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age or
(26:33):
The Sydney Morning Herald websites and to support our journalism,
subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm
Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, September 5th.
This week, the political debate was dominated by the topic
of immigration following anti-immigration rallies in major cities last weekend.
(00:23):
Politicians from both major parties tried to strike a balance
between listening to people's legitimate concerns, while also condemning the
extremist fringe of the anti-immigration movement. Here to discuss, we
have our chief political correspondent, Paul Circle and federal political
correspondent Natassia Chrysanthos. Welcome, guys.
S2 (00:45):
Hi, Jack. Morning.
S1 (00:46):
So, Paul, last weekend we saw these big anti-immigration rallies
being held across the country. They were called the March
for Australia rallies. They made the news, obviously, and there
was particularly some violence at the Melbourne rally where we
saw neo-Nazis showing up. And one was even sort of
given permission to take the microphone and publicly address the
rally in a sort of endorsement almost of that particular group.
(01:07):
And this was despite an insistence from the organizers that
the rallies were attended by mainstream Australians. What reaction did
we see this week from Canberra?
S3 (01:16):
Yeah, they were big rallies. I mean, they weren't as
violent or as incendiary as the Cronulla riots, but they
certainly carried echoes of it in terms of the size
and the tenor of some of the debate at these rallies.
In terms of how the reaction played out in Canberra
this week, the Prime Minister was particularly keen to strike
a measured tone. He wanted to acknowledge the legitimate concerns
(01:36):
of some of the people at the rally.
S4 (01:38):
Do you think there were good people with legitimate concerns
that these anti-immigration rallies this weekend?
S5 (01:44):
Of course, there's always good people will turn up to
demonstrate their views about particular issues. But what we have
here is neo-Nazis being given a platform.
S3 (01:57):
He didn't want to cast them all as extremists. He
wanted to acknowledge that there has been high migration post
Covid after a period of low migration when lockdowns occurred,
which coincided with a housing crisis and people feeling like
their lot in life was getting worse. We had an
inflation crisis as well, and when those problems are occurring
in society, there's a common tendency, as demonstrated through history,
(02:20):
to blame other groups in society, including migrants. So you
saw Albanese trying to kind of sit in the middle
of this debate. Sussan Ley tried to set the agenda
earlier in the week by saying that the Prime Minister
needed to show leadership at this time of kind of fraying,
fraying of our social fabric. But the coalition's message got
muddied as the week went on, because some of the
(02:42):
more forceful right wingers in the party, including Jacinta Price
and Alex Antic, uh, used some, at times controversial language
to talk about this issue. Jacinta price draped herself in
the Australian flag, which is the garb that many of
these protesters were using on Sunday.
S6 (02:58):
Senator McKim, on a point of order.
S7 (03:00):
Yes. Thank you. President, I asked for a ruling. Please.
On whether the senator is who's wrapped in the national
flag at the moment is contravening the standing order that
prevents props.
S4 (03:14):
Thank you, Acting President. So disappointing from the Greens, but
also so typical. You can wear a kippah in here.
Perhaps you should remove that article from you whenever you
walk through these chambers. For the benefit of all Australians
in this country. Yes. Snark all you like. It's revolting.
S3 (03:32):
Alex Antic, the, uh, most far right liberal senator, suggested
that the neo-Nazi group led by Thomas Sewell, who we saw, uh,
harass Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press conference,
was effectively in some sort of psyop operation with ASIO.
And they're not a real organisation. And this is all
a government set up to try and create the impression
(03:52):
that neo-Nazis are a prominent force when actually Anti-migration views
are widespread. So there were some out there comments in
the Parliament this week and worth just very briefly putting
it into a bigger context. We've had the ASIO boss,
Mike Burgess, talking for years about the increased risk of
politically motivated violence. At the same time as populist movements
(04:14):
are on the rise in the US with Trump and
in large parts of Europe. So all of these extremist
elements and these risks we've been hearing a lot about
are kind of coalescing and creating this big national conversation
around radicalism in Australia.
S1 (04:30):
Yeah. And sort of some elements are hopping off the
internet and into real life tasks. You had a look
at immigration figures this week. So let's just go straight
to the facts, because there is this perception, rightly or wrongly,
among some sectors of the Australian population, that there are
too many migrants, and particularly in our big cities where
you you do see a lot of, I think probably
temporary migrants and people blame them, perhaps for the housing
(04:52):
crisis and also maybe for sort of infrastructure gluts or
kind of, you know, jamming up infrastructure. What are the
actual facts on immigration Migration figures.
S8 (05:00):
Well, if you look at the last two decades. So
since about zero four. In the Howard era, you've had
a pretty steady approach to migration, where the population is
generally grown between 1 and 2% every year. Um, and
since 2004, migrants have contributed more to population growth than
(05:21):
natural increase, which refers to the number of people being
born minus the number of people who died. So migrants
have made up the majority of population growth for the
last 20 years. Um, the big anomaly, I suppose, as
Paul said, happened during Covid. So we were on track
at that. That kind of steady rate of growth between
1 and 2%. Then borders were shut. You had this,
(05:43):
this historic dip in, um, migration to negative migration. And
then when borders reopened, you had a historic surge. Um,
now when kind of, uh, people in the protests have
and it happens in Parliament as well. Bring up this
argument that a million people came into the country in
(06:06):
two years. That's true. Um, but what that doesn't kind
of account for was it came off the back of
negative migration and actually the budget papers. So the budget
papers forecast migration for the next four years, every year. Um,
and they've gotten all muddled up with all these kind
of contradictory expectations, not being able to predict when borders
(06:26):
will open or close things like that. But for example,
if you go back to the 2019 budget delivered by
the Morrison government, which is the the last pre Covid budget,
I suppose, and you look at its forecast for population
growth and you, which was a kind of steady steady
rate and you take that forward. The population um would
(06:50):
have been in 24 in 2024. Sorry. It would have
been almost 28 million. What we ended up with was
27.4 84 million. So the population levels that we see
now are roughly on par with what governments were supposedly
planning for 5 or 6 years ago. So that's when
you get to this kind of argument that governments have
(07:10):
been ushering in this kind of mass migration by stealth. Um,
that doesn't add up when you look at what governments
have been planning for, and then you get into a
reasonable debate about housing and infrastructure and all of that.
S1 (07:22):
Yeah. Yeah. So basically, Covid kind of really stuffed everything up.
And I think that, um, or stuffed up all the projections. Okay. So, Paul,
let's talk about the political debate around migration, because as
you say, it has become sort of globalized. Both labor
and the coalition know that some voters, um, have concerns
around there being too much immigration. And both parties went
to the election with promises to cut immigration. That obviously
(07:46):
didn't work so well for the coalition. But Labor's won government.
Are they going to cut immigration?
S3 (07:52):
Yeah, well Labor's continuing on with their policies that they
had before the last election to bring immigration down from
those post Covid highs. Peter Dutton turned this into one
of the most salient issues of the last term. Not
off his own bat. He picked up on something that
was occurring in the community. I'm interested to ask now,
is it right to say that the post Covid numbers
(08:13):
did lead to a much higher perception of high immigration
and a perception that immigrants were fuelling social issues in Australia?
Or is that a bigger feature of political debate than
it has been in polling of individuals?
S8 (08:26):
I think it depends who you are and where you live, right,
and what your economic concerns are. I think research tells
us that that people who are concerned about economic security
or housing insecurity are more likely to be concerned about immigration. Um,
you know, you had in this recent period that really
intersect with the housing debate, but but in previous times,
(08:46):
you know, you've got traffic and congestion issues, and that
also turns into a conversation about immigration. So I think
everyone's kind of reality on that front will be different.
But there's no doubt that, um, the political narrative, I
think has has helped to kind of consolidate that argument.
(09:07):
And I think that that housing immigration link there is
there there is a relationship there. But immigration is not
the only factor that influences housing. Housing shortages, housing prices
is it's a it's a much more complicated picture. What
I find really interesting is just talking to people in Parliament,
including coalition ministers, MPs, post-election, and a lot of them
(09:29):
will say people didn't buy it like we were. We
were drawing this simplistic link. Being like migrants and international
students are the reasons you can't buy a house. And
it didn't land with people. And I think you saw
that in the election result. Um, which is why I
find it quite interesting that the coalition, in many ways
this week is still kind of giving this conversation a
(09:54):
similar framing.
S1 (09:56):
The coalition leadership tried to strike a pretty even tone
on this stuff, but we did see Coalition Senator Jacinta
Nampijinpa price makes them particularly sort of controversial comments about
the Indian community in particular that she got backlash on.
S8 (10:11):
So you've got kind of Lee, I think, trying to
play both sides a little bit, being very kind of
much more empathetic, kind of where all migrants. I'm a migrant,
we love the migrant communities, while at the same time
kind of weighing into this debate around the housing link,
which didn't quite work for the coalition last time. And
then as she's she's really trying to walk that line.
(10:35):
You've got Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, who comes on afternoon briefing
and after a bit of questioning from the host, basically
alleges that labor is bringing in specific groups of migrants
so that it can win votes.
S9 (10:48):
So who do you think they're trying to bring in
to to make them vote for labor?
S4 (10:52):
Well, those that are more labor leaning that that are
likely to be.
S9 (10:56):
But there are right wing or left wing people in
every community. Right. So who specifically are they?
S8 (11:01):
Now Australia's got a non-discriminatory migration system that that doesn't
preference nationality, but price basically, um, contradicts that. And then
when pressed on who is labor trying to bring in
singles out the Indian community?
S4 (11:14):
Well, as we've seen, you know, I mean, you yourself
mentioned that, um, there is a concern with the Indian
community and only because there's been large numbers and we
can see that reflected in the way that the community
votes for labor. At the same time.
S8 (11:27):
This is probably worth acknowledging the overwhelming kind of target
in terms of anti-immigration sentiment on the weekend. And you
have several really upsetting, um, reports of racism that people
experienced on the streets of Sydney and Melbourne and so forth.
And then you have price now, a Liberal senator, going
(11:48):
on national television and basically validating that concern that that
led to significant racism on, on our streets.
S1 (11:56):
Well, and not just that saying that their queue jumpers almost.
S8 (11:59):
Yeah, yeah. And and, um, the laborers vote stacking and. Yeah. No,
no kind of credible allegation, no evidence for it. There
was I think it's safe to say that Lee wasn't
happy about that situation.
S10 (12:15):
Our Australian Indian community are amazing. You contribute as Australian
Indians so much to our country. We know how hard
you work. Your family values and the contribution you make
across this country. And as Opposition leader, I value that incredibly.
S8 (12:33):
Price had issued a statement about an hour afterwards. Um,
but again, her statement was Australia has a non-discriminatory migration program.
Suggestions otherwise are a mistake. There wasn't a kind of
a lot of ownership over that mistake.
S1 (12:52):
And no apology to the Indian community.
S8 (12:53):
And no apology. And then she came out the next
day and said, I don't think I need to apologize.
So I and the Indian community, it is it is
a significant voting block because it's a lot of people
and labor and the coalition both caught that community. There
is a lot of active outreach among Indian Australians, and
there are a lot of them are very politically engaged. Um,
so I don't think this bodes well for the coalition
(13:15):
and Sussan Ley, as she vows to rebuild the coalition's
reputation in multicultural communities that ultimately contributed to its massive defeat.
S1 (13:24):
Okay. But I just want to look at the overseas context,
because we do look overseas and we see that in
the UK, in the United States, in Germany, just to
name a few countries, there is some fraying of social
cohesion that is due to conflict over migration. I guess
you could say, um, and tensions and you have xenophobic
protests against asylum seekers in the United Kingdom, for example. How, Paul,
(13:47):
are Australian politicians sort of very concerned or very alive
to the possibility that that kind of stuff could be
imported here?
S3 (13:54):
Well, I think they definitely are. Um, and in a
number on a number of different fronts in politics. Now,
you see the internet kind of shrinking the world movements
that pop up in a, in a like minded Western
country can very quickly be replicated by people in, in,
in another country because they're able to, um, pick up
the same tactics and talking points. And you see that
from the US. You're seeing that now, um, some of
(14:17):
the UK protests that have occurred in small towns looked
a little bit like the ones we saw on the
weekend here. Um, there was a huge, uh, online discussion
in Australia about the so-called UK migrant gang rape crisis, which, um,
quickly turned into an issue last year because of its
prominence on Elon Musks platform. And then I saw lots
(14:37):
of Australian far right debate just in in the weeks
after that. So you're seeing this, this kind of aping of, um,
of events overseas and I think a point, a just
a point of difference between us and some of these
other countries is what we've we've been able to do
in terms of securing our borders over the last 20 years.
(14:58):
John Howard used to talk about keeping control of borders
and keeping public kind of acceptance of the migration program alive,
and key to that is stopping the sense that the
borders are porous and that small boats are flowing in, um,
without any control, which feeds a sense of anxiety in
the community. He brought in the Pacific solution. Labour obviously
(15:20):
overturned that had a huge political crisis over it. Under
the Rudd Gillard governments, um, reluctantly brought back, uh, a
stronger border.
S1 (15:30):
Policy.
S3 (15:31):
Yeah. The Abbott government brought in boat turn back policies.
And now that's an absolute fixture of labor politics, as
demonstrated by Tony Burke last week signing another very expensive
deal with Nauru. So we do have a fundamental difference with,
for example, the UK, which has a very, very porous
border at its at its English Channel crossing. But we
are seeing on the, on the fringes of our society,
(15:53):
not quite in the centre as it is in other
parts of the west, but on the fringes, a growing
sense that there are too many migrants in our community
that certain pockets of, particularly Melbourne and Sydney, are starting
to not look like Australia, that that white Australians, particularly
lower middle class and working class white Australians, don't have
(16:14):
prosperous lives because heavy industries have closed, because the fossil
fuel industry is, is, is dying, and that the globalisation
that we've seen in the last 30 years has not
benefited some groups of Australians. And that, you know, we've
used high levels of migration to grow our economy instead
of trying to find solutions to actually grow productivity.
S1 (16:35):
Yeah. So that's what I find interesting because as you,
you've just taken us through a potted history of the
sort of asylum seeker debate, which was a huge issue,
like when I was in Canberra, it was a huge
political issue, and it's basically settled and it's basically bipartisan
now that we have a very quote unquote strong border
protection policy. But now the debate has actually shifted to
completely legal migration. Migration that is sanctioned and indeed encouraged
(16:58):
by our government to prop up economic growth and to
prop up the population. But I suppose you see a
whole cohort of voters who feel like they've never signed
on to that, who feel like they've never specifically agreed
to having these levels of what, you know, the right
wingers call mass immigration, which is not a term that
I would use. But I guess what I'm getting at
is whether or not both sides of politics are now Labour,
because they're in government, have actually done enough to proactively
(17:21):
convince or show Australians the benefits of migration to our
country in terms of services, in terms of population growth,
in terms of economic growth, and, you know, specialised workers
that we desperately need.
S8 (17:33):
I kind of I don't know. And this is a
conversation I think I've been having a lot this week.
And I think it just normal people would be having
because it, it does touch everyone. I feel like a
lot of Australians do get that. I think most Australians
do get that. I think most people have. But I think,
I think.
S3 (17:49):
It's in the centre of.
S8 (17:50):
Interesting.
S1 (17:51):
Is it being led by politicians, though, and particularly to
the cohort of Australians who feel that there may be
getting ripped off by, by, um, you know, the immigration
system as it is.
S8 (18:01):
I wonder when we're talking about that cohort of people
and I think like, like, you know, recent surveys will
tell us, you know, there is a kind of higher
level than usual of concern about immigration as a trend
in Australia, whether that whole group of people are the
kind of people who are so motivated by that concern
(18:22):
that they'd come out and march. I don't know, I
think I kind of just like putting it in perspective
a bit. I feel like this cohort is a a
group of people. I think other people have kind of
less passionate feelings, perhaps, about the rate of immigration, even
if there is a level of underlying discomfort or whatnot.
(18:44):
But I feel like that cohort, probably the ones that,
you know, turned up to the rally, I don't feel
like they're kind of views on this thing are really
being guided by mainstream politicians like it's coming more from, like,
the right wing.
S1 (18:59):
Yeah, sure. And I think a lot of it is
as as we say, a lot of it's influenced by
internet culture. But I guess I'm asking about the the political,
the political, the onus on politicians to make proactively a
case for immigration and its benefits. Have they failed?
S8 (19:14):
I feel like they like. And hearing them talk about
this week. Right? Everyone will be like, everyone's a migrant,
migrants have made great contributions to our country, etc., etc. um,
whether it's that that line's not convincing or it feels
a bit basic at this point. Um, whether it's a
matter of being more upfront when it comes to policy
(19:35):
platforms at elections, around your forecasts, around immigration, so people
feel like they're on the same page or.
S1 (19:42):
Feel like they're being informed.
S3 (19:43):
And the government hit its migration numbers for months and
just released it quietly this week.
S8 (19:48):
Yeah, I wouldn't I don't think that's quite like that's again,
that goes back to the permanence.
S1 (19:52):
I mean, and the reality is that most ordinary voters
aren't going to be looking at the migration projections in
the budget papers, but I just wonder if there's a
little bit of, um, a little bit of reticence on
the part of politicians from both sides of politics to
admit how much immigration drives economic growth and how much
we need and desperately rely upon migrants, in particular in
(20:13):
sectors like the aged care industry and in healthcare generally,
and even in industries like financial services, where I think
it's about a quarter of workers are from overseas. So yeah,
I just wonder if they're a little bit reluctant to
to admit that publicly. I Paul, I want to ask
about the neo-Nazis that we saw in Melbourne this week,
which strangely seems to be, I don't know, a comfortable
(20:36):
home for neo-Nazis.
S3 (20:37):
The point you just made. Sorry, can I just make
one more point on the reluctance, um, just before we
move on, because there was a good example this week. So, yeah,
I do think there is reluctance because if you're a
treasurer and you've just gone through a period of, uh,
really damp economic growth, only kept out of recession by
by high migration levels. You're effectively admitting that without bringing
(21:00):
in a lot of migrants, you have run the economy
into the ground. So we've had we've had we've had
uncreative policy making and a lack of bravery in policy making,
which has created a productivity problem. That's been where where
a gap has been plugged by migration. And just this
week we saw how crucial and you mentioned aged care, Jackie, um,
how crucial migrant workers are because the government delayed home
(21:22):
care packages and aged care created a bit of a
mini crisis in Canberra this week, forcing the government to
backtrack and roll out aged care home packages more quickly,
and a key reason the government cited for not being
able to care for people in their homes is that
we don't have enough workers in Australia willing to do
these jobs. We need more migration to plug these skills gaps.
So for all the concern about housing, legitimate or not,
(21:43):
there's a lot of concern on the other side around
skill shortages, which we saw in Covid. And we still
see now in a bunch of key industries.
S1 (21:50):
Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, Peter Dutton in particular,
when they had their sort of big targets to slash
migration that they took to the election never really addressed
the difficulty of the fact that the economy basically wasn't
going to run, you know, on the levels of migration,
that he.
S3 (22:07):
Was totally incoherent policy from Dutton with no solution on
how that would work.
S1 (22:11):
Economically. Yeah. So let's talk about the neo-Nazis. As reluctant
as I am to give them any airtime. We did
see them surface in Melbourne. We saw a neo-Nazi leader
bail up Jacinta Allan, the Victorian premier, at a press
conference in a public place, which was a little bit
of a security risk. How can politicians or how are
the politicians at a federal level, responding to this sort
of creep of extremism into the mainstream debate that you see.
S8 (22:35):
For example, the Prime Minister grappling with this in his
tone and remarks this week. Um, this very careful, um,
you know, there are good people not we don't want
to demonise everyone. You know, he was pressed on this
in the caucus as well because not all labor MPs
were were We're satisfied, um, with that response. Ed Husic
(22:56):
came out a few days later and said, I think
something like, show me a good fascist. Um, the Prime
Minister's justification was that it goes, I guess, back to
the kind of, um, internet radicalization theme, um, which is
by demonizing these people publicly, you could push them into
(23:18):
a rabbit hole. And I think the other big thing
that counter-extremism experts will say when it comes to, um,
right wing radical groups is and we saw this around
Welcome to Country around Anzac Day as well. They are
trying to hijack mainstream debate. They are making what sounds
like rational argument to kind of bring people more into
(23:39):
a racist and extremist ideology. Um, I think you've seen
the Prime Minister be very cautious about playing into their
hand there. Um, I think that is what is also
probably a bit interesting about the way that the coalition
has responded. Like the coalition, I think where the where
(24:02):
the Labour government has tried to move on from a
legitimate discussion of immigration this week, it's acknowledged it, but
it hasn't wanted to engage with it. You've seen the
coalition engage with it more. Um, you had one nation
try and launch a Senate inquiry into immigration. The coalition
then kind of jumped on that and amended it slightly,
(24:22):
also trying to call for this debate into immigration. Where
that all started was with these weekend rallies, which we
saw were hijacked by neo-Nazi groups. Um, so I think
there is there are different levels of kind of caution
around the parliament in terms of how political debate should
(24:42):
or should not engage with that kind of extremist element
to some of these conversations taking place.
S1 (24:49):
I mean, it is actually really difficult line to walk.
S3 (24:52):
And I think media is grappling with this in the
same way. Like, they're so in-your-face and so disgusting that
it demands attention, but they.
S1 (25:01):
Can't not report.
S3 (25:01):
It. The attention.
S1 (25:02):
It's a phenomenon that exists. But but yeah, I don't
want to talk about neo-Nazis on this podcast ever. If
I had my druthers. No.
S3 (25:09):
And they have a there's a document from 2021 which
Cam Wilson from Crikey reported. It's from the National Socialist Network.
So the group that Thomas Sowell runs and it's a
handbook on, quote, media baiting. And it quotes media baiting
is a huge portion of our recruitment drive. There are
currently hundreds of minor nationalist groups in Australia, but none
of them ever amount to anything without media attention, even
(25:30):
if the articles are mostly negative. The readers of the
article are not the target audience. We're trying to win
over youth who are already sympathetic to the cause and
are seeking an outlet for their views. So inadvertently, we
are driving their recruitment.
S1 (25:43):
We're being used as tools. Yeah, we're.
S3 (25:45):
Doing it right now. Again.
S1 (25:47):
Let's stop talking about neo-Nazis then. Guys, this has been
such an interesting discussion. I wish we could talk for longer,
but we're out of time and I'm sure we'll revisit it.
Task particular thanks to you. We haven't seen you in
a while. It's a pleasure.
S8 (25:58):
Pleasure to be here. Thanks.
S1 (25:59):
Thanks, guys.
S3 (26:00):
Thank you. Bye.
S1 (26:10):
Today's episode was produced by Josh towers with technical assistance
from Kai Wong and Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is
Tammy Mills, and Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow Inside Politics on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you
listen to your podcasts. To stay up to date with
all the politics, news and exclusives, visit The Age or
(26:33):
The Sydney Morning Herald websites and to support our journalism,
subscribe to us by visiting The Age or smh.com.au. I'm
Jacqueline Maley, thank you for listening.
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