June 4, 2025 • 17 mins
Most of us have, for so long, lived under the shadow of American exports, that we’d be hard-pressed to choose which was the most intrusive. Hollywood rom-coms? Halloween? J.Lo?
That list might have been relevant a couple of weeks ago. But now America’s biggest export is Donald Trump’s MAGA mindset, according to international and political editor, Peter Hartcher.
Today, he joins 'The Morning Edition' to discuss Trump’s hidden announcement, last week about a new level of American interference, globally, not seen since the end of the Cold War. And how it will impact how America changes other countries for years to come.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
June 5th. Most of us have for so long lived
under the shadow of American exports that really, we'd be
hard pressed to choose which was the most intrusive Hollywood
(00:24):
rom coms. Halloween. J.Lo. That list might have been relevant
a couple of weeks ago, but now America's biggest export
is Donald Trump's MAGA mindset. According to international and political
editor Peter Hartcher, today, he joins me to discuss Trump's
hidden announcement last week about a new level of American
(00:46):
interference globally not seen since the end of the Cold War,
and how it will impact how America changes other countries
for years to come. So, Peter, I just want to
start by asking you about Donald Trump's fascination with Europe,
(01:07):
because as you pointed out, he isn't just all about MAGA,
which I know we're all familiar with. He's also now
all about Mega, which, as you point out, stands for
Make Europe Great Again. I wasn't happy to read this,
but tell us about this.
S2 (01:20):
Just for the record, I made up mega that didn't
come from from him. But yeah, what it implies is
that he he is fascinated with Europe, but not in
a friendly way. He's fascinated with it because he thinks
it's inimical to the MAGA movement and wants to convert
it to the values of MAGA. So the whole Trump
(01:40):
tribe considers Europe to be a project gone badly awry,
because it's become too progressive to effete, that they do
things like, um, allow, uh, a full expression of transgender
rights and yet don't allow full, uh, as defined by
(02:01):
Donald Trump, freedom of speech because they try to do
things like regulate hate speech and and manage the social
media harms that are inflicted on their society. So this
has marked them out as the enemy. It's reminiscent of
the way that, uh, China is irritated by Taiwan, China,
(02:23):
obviously an autocracy that finds the existence of Taiwan irritating
because it shows that Chinese society can be a functioning democracy.
It irritates Trump much in the way that Ukraine irritated
Vladimir Putin, because it showed that a Slavic society right
next to Russia could operate as a successful democracy, uh,
(02:47):
against his autocracy. So these, um, living models of how
similar societies can function as democracies irritates these guys. And
now Trump has found his Taiwan or his Ukraine. It's Europe.
It shows that a large functioning system can operate on
progressive values, not mega values. That's why he wants them
(03:12):
to go mega.
S1 (03:13):
Which takes us to something else that you've just written about, really,
which is about, I guess, the allies of the MAGA
movement in Europe and how they're being swept into power,
you know, arguably because of their MAGA alignments. So tell
us about this.
S2 (03:25):
Well, the US in recent years, post the Cold War,
has generally liked to try to stay out of other
countries political affairs. But the Trump administration loves to jump
right into the middle of other countries political, domestic affairs
and elections. The most recent was just in the last
(03:47):
day or two, which was the election in Poland where
Trump had taken sides in favor of the the right
wing nationalist Euroskeptic candidate, Karel Navrotsky. He had invited him
into the Oval Office a month ago, which is a
sign of endorsement. He had sent Kristi Noem, Homeland Security
(04:09):
secretary to went into Poland, went into Warsaw just a
few days ago and endorsed him and said, this guy
has to be the new president. And the opponent, she said,
was a train wreck standing in the capital of Warsaw
in the in an election week. Trump officials, US officials
making these sort of statements now as it happened Navrotsky won.
(04:32):
Trump got his candidate. But as we saw in Australia
and also in Canada's recent election, a Trump Trump endorsement
or interference does not always serve the interests that Trump's
trying to serve. It can, uh, it can backfire big time.
So it's not necessarily, um, a blessing that anybody really wants.
(04:55):
It depends on the country, Romania, where A trump sided
with the pro-Russia team. They lost. They lost that one
in Britain. Well, of course, Trump is close to Nigel
Farage from the Reform Party and the Reform Party, although
it's out of power at the moment and Labour was
elected only about a year ago. But reform is currently
(05:17):
ahead in the polls in Britain, and Farage claims that
reform has displaced the Conservative Party as the natural alternative
government in Britain. But we'll see about that. Um, he hasn't. Um,
interestingly enough, Trump hasn't taken overt sides in the politics
of any of it's the US's Indo-Pacific allies yet. But, um, interestingly,
(05:40):
Steve Bannon, uh, did broadcast an endorsement last week of
the conservative candidate in the South Korean election that we've
just seen occur. Um, he endorsed, uh, him. But once again,
the the MAGA endorsed candidate did not win in the
progressive candidate, uh, won in the South Korean election by
(06:00):
a decisive margin. So Trump's involvement doesn't necessarily indicate success,
but it is an interference. And this is a new, uh,
at least since the end of the Cold War, relatively
new conduct by American administrations and countries around the world
are going to have to be prepared for that. And
the other thing I'd just point out to Samantha, is
(06:22):
that this is a new set of American values being
endorsed and trying to be, you know, imposed on other countries.
The US, since World War two was in favor of
a much more liberal set of values where they supported democracy,
they supported human rights, they supported freedom of speech. Um,
(06:46):
in a liberal, small l liberal uh definition. This is
a very different set of values and attitudes, and it
boils right down into the detail of countries domestic affairs,
like the level of immigration they criticize and take sides
in other countries according to their immigration policy. So this
is a completely different set of values.
S1 (07:08):
Okay. And I just want to ask you how much
pushback we might likely to see from Europe in terms of,
you know, Trump's and his administration's meddling, really, because, you know,
we saw authoritarian expert Anne Applebaum. She made the point
just recently in an interview about Hungary, specifically saying she
wanted to issue what she called, quote, a regular reminder
that authoritarian populism will make your country corrupt and poor.
(07:31):
So how do you think European countries are going to
respond to what's happening?
S2 (07:36):
Well, they've already started responding in in one sense, which
is that when Trump made it clear that his sympathies
were with Russia over Ukraine, when he cut precipitously, cut
assistance to Ukraine, questioned the value of NATO. We have
seen one European leader after another say that they can't
rely on the US anymore. We've seen the new Chancellor
(07:59):
of Germany, the greatest power in Europe, say that he
and Germany will pursue, quote, independence from the US, unquote,
as a matter of national priority. So none of these
countries is enjoying none of the NATO allies is enjoying
his interventions. And some of the countries we've been talking
(08:22):
about Poland, Romania are NATO allies, and Trump is nakedly
getting involved in their domestic politics. I you know, this
is Trump thinks it helps his cause and the MAGA values.
But in the main countries of Europe, we see it
backfiring so far.
S1 (08:44):
We'll be right back. Okay. Now you've just mentioned that Trump,
you know, likes to nakedly get involved into other countries politics.
And you've written about a monumental announcement that I've got
to say I had missed until you wrote about it.
But it's super important. And this is something that Donald
Trump said on Thursday about how he plans to export
(09:05):
his MAGA revolution to the world. So what did he say?
S2 (09:09):
So until now, this a lot of this stuff has been, um,
you could interpret it as just Trump mouthing off rather
than structured into government policy. But on Thursday, US time
last week, uh, the administration notified the Congress that they
were going to create a new office within the State Department.
They gutted, they cut by something like 80% the existing
(09:31):
Bureau of Human Rights. Uh, and they have created something
called the Office of Natural Rights, which is a new,
new thing, new phenomenon. And it seems that this is
the vehicle by which, uh, well, it doesn't seem they
have announced, uh, Marco Rubio, Secretary of state, um, and
in the formal announcements have announced their intention that this
(09:54):
will be the vehicle to spread their values abroad through
the State Department and its and its machinations.
S1 (10:00):
Okay, so tell us, tell us about, you know, what
sort of values Trump's going to be championing.
S2 (10:04):
Yeah, well, we know MAGA values. There's not a precise
definition of natural rights, but there is a precise definition
of what natural rights are opposed to that we've seen
from the State Department. Last week, the so-called natural rights,
the Office of Natural Rights is going to be opposed
to digital censorship, as they call it, mass migration, restrictions
(10:25):
on religious freedom, and numerous other assaults on democratic self-governance.
But the one that Marco Rubio has most emphasized in
the last couple of weeks in an interview in the US,
was the right of countries to define come up with
their own definitions of free speech. Every country has some
(10:46):
sort of restraint definition of what's acceptable, what's not, what's
hate speech, what's libelous. Even the US has laws against
libel and slander. They're very liberal. Trump wouldn't like that description,
but they're very permissive. But they still have some standards.
And every country does. And Marco Rubio has indicated that
(11:07):
this is going to be the prime target. And if
I can just quote him, uh, he says that, um,
it's an Oval Office priority. He says that's a new
thing for us to have to raise in European capitals,
but we do it and we do it everywhere. And
I personally witnessed the president and the vice president raise
it with multiple foreign leaders. And I think you're going
(11:29):
to continue to see an emphasis on that in our
diplomacy and what we talk about. They've already put it
on the negotiating table with Britain, with Keir Starmer, where
Starmer has said a review of Britain's online safety rules
is underway because of pressure from Trump in trade negotiations.
So it's now become not just, uh, you know, a
(11:49):
bit of loose talk or a preferred, uh, position. It's
now become an item on the negotiating table where country's
commercial and economic interests are involved. Their ability, their right
to define their own laws around speech, internet regulation and
(12:10):
all of that are now a trade item on the table.
So this is this is new. Uh, it's it's obviously
got all sorts of ramifications for many countries, including Australia, because, uh,
we already have a series of laws that have tried
to impose some level of constraint on social media companies
(12:32):
in particular. But as you know, there's a forthcoming, uh,
ban that's been legislated by both major parties in our
parliament that would prevent 16 year olds and younger having
access to social media. Now, you can imagine the Trump
administration's line on that.
S1 (12:48):
And the backdrop to all of this is that our
very own Esafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant, she's been battling. Well,
I think it was Elon Musk at the time to
get a video taken down on X. So what sort
of struggles might we see going forward?
S2 (13:02):
Well, according to the Trump view of the world, uh,
then an American corporation or entity can do what it's
what it likes and say what it likes and that
and that. Any country that attempts to regulate, control or
limit that in any way is going to be subject
to punishment. And just last week, as part of this
whole agenda, um, the State Department, US State Department announced
(13:24):
they would put a visa ban on anyone from any
country who's complicit in what he called censorship in America.
So on that definition, anybody in the Australian government who's
got any involvement with the policy to ban, for example,
kids under 16 from social media, uh, would earn a
visa ban from the US. Who knows, maybe including the
(13:46):
Prime minister himself, since it's his policy. So this is
the beginning. We're just getting a glimpse of how this
new mega priority is going to be enacted through US
law and US foreign policy.
S1 (14:00):
Okay. So, Peter, I've got to ask you this. I'm
wondering whether all of this, everything we've discussed might be
sort of lighting a fire under the bodies, let's say,
of Democratic leaders in terms of how they might fight
against Trump and specifically the Democrats in the states, because, um,
Democratic Congressman Jim Himes gave a really revealing interview to
the rest of his politics just the other day about,
(14:22):
you know, why the Democrats lost so dismally to Trump.
And he he said his party was condescending, self-righteous around
social issues, immensely annoying around things like pronouns, and just
completely got it wrong in terms of the economic anxieties
of Americans. So do you think the Democrats are listening? Like,
are they taking note of all of this? Is this
(14:42):
a wake up call or slumber?
S2 (14:45):
I don't think the Democrats have really adjusted to the
shock and figured out the response, the critique of their
their election, which you've just run through. is entirely accurate.
What's the what's their answer? We don't know. It's not
enough just to admit what you've done wrong. You have
to figure out the future, and they've got some time
(15:07):
to do it. It's very frustrating for a lot of
Democrat supporters in the US that the party is still
reeling around, punch drunk, not knowing what to do. But
the party has to come up with a positive agenda
for the future, not just a denunciation of Donald Trump.
Can I add another thought on this? Natural rights campaigning
(15:28):
and attempt to export MAGA values to the world. One
of its effects is a tremendously useful distraction for Trump
because of his sympathies with Russia, with Saudi Arabia, with
autocratic regimes around the world, because he's so busy waging
these sort of political wars against European countries and democratic countries. Uh,
(15:53):
it deflects and detracts from what he should or could
be doing, and what traditionally US presidents would have done
with countries like Russia and leaders like Putin. It's helpful
to the whole autocratic movement and mindset around the world.
(16:15):
And in fact, the US has postponed the release of
its annual human rights report, which is congressionally mandated, but
they've delayed it, according to the reporting we've seen from
the US, because Trump is redefining human rights so that
he will. He told an audience in Saudi Arabia a
few weeks ago. He said, we're going to not going
to lecture foreign countries like that anymore. So that means, um,
(16:39):
the Saudis and the Russians apparently get a leave pass,
but Western Europe apparently gets the lectures now.
S1 (16:46):
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's grim, but it's best to
talk about this stuff.
S2 (16:50):
There's to know it and prepare for it.
S1 (16:52):
Yeah.
S2 (16:52):
Better armed and disarmed or unarmed.
S1 (16:55):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, as always, for your time.
S2 (16:58):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (17:07):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Bella Anne Sanchez.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
(17:28):
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or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary
of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
June 5th. Most of us have for so long lived
under the shadow of American exports that really, we'd be
hard pressed to choose which was the most intrusive Hollywood
(00:24):
rom coms. Halloween. J.Lo. That list might have been relevant
a couple of weeks ago, but now America's biggest export
is Donald Trump's MAGA mindset. According to international and political
editor Peter Hartcher, today, he joins me to discuss Trump's
hidden announcement last week about a new level of American
(00:46):
interference globally not seen since the end of the Cold War,
and how it will impact how America changes other countries
for years to come. So, Peter, I just want to
start by asking you about Donald Trump's fascination with Europe,
(01:07):
because as you pointed out, he isn't just all about MAGA,
which I know we're all familiar with. He's also now
all about Mega, which, as you point out, stands for
Make Europe Great Again. I wasn't happy to read this,
but tell us about this.
S2 (01:20):
Just for the record, I made up mega that didn't
come from from him. But yeah, what it implies is
that he he is fascinated with Europe, but not in
a friendly way. He's fascinated with it because he thinks
it's inimical to the MAGA movement and wants to convert
it to the values of MAGA. So the whole Trump
(01:40):
tribe considers Europe to be a project gone badly awry,
because it's become too progressive to effete, that they do
things like, um, allow, uh, a full expression of transgender
rights and yet don't allow full, uh, as defined by
(02:01):
Donald Trump, freedom of speech because they try to do
things like regulate hate speech and and manage the social
media harms that are inflicted on their society. So this
has marked them out as the enemy. It's reminiscent of
the way that, uh, China is irritated by Taiwan, China,
(02:23):
obviously an autocracy that finds the existence of Taiwan irritating
because it shows that Chinese society can be a functioning democracy.
It irritates Trump much in the way that Ukraine irritated
Vladimir Putin, because it showed that a Slavic society right
next to Russia could operate as a successful democracy, uh,
(02:47):
against his autocracy. So these, um, living models of how
similar societies can function as democracies irritates these guys. And
now Trump has found his Taiwan or his Ukraine. It's Europe.
It shows that a large functioning system can operate on
progressive values, not mega values. That's why he wants them
(03:12):
to go mega.
S1 (03:13):
Which takes us to something else that you've just written about, really,
which is about, I guess, the allies of the MAGA
movement in Europe and how they're being swept into power,
you know, arguably because of their MAGA alignments. So tell
us about this.
S2 (03:25):
Well, the US in recent years, post the Cold War,
has generally liked to try to stay out of other
countries political affairs. But the Trump administration loves to jump
right into the middle of other countries political, domestic affairs
and elections. The most recent was just in the last
(03:47):
day or two, which was the election in Poland where
Trump had taken sides in favor of the the right
wing nationalist Euroskeptic candidate, Karel Navrotsky. He had invited him
into the Oval Office a month ago, which is a
sign of endorsement. He had sent Kristi Noem, Homeland Security
(04:09):
secretary to went into Poland, went into Warsaw just a
few days ago and endorsed him and said, this guy
has to be the new president. And the opponent, she said,
was a train wreck standing in the capital of Warsaw
in the in an election week. Trump officials, US officials
making these sort of statements now as it happened Navrotsky won.
(04:32):
Trump got his candidate. But as we saw in Australia
and also in Canada's recent election, a Trump Trump endorsement
or interference does not always serve the interests that Trump's
trying to serve. It can, uh, it can backfire big time.
So it's not necessarily, um, a blessing that anybody really wants.
(04:55):
It depends on the country, Romania, where A trump sided
with the pro-Russia team. They lost. They lost that one
in Britain. Well, of course, Trump is close to Nigel
Farage from the Reform Party and the Reform Party, although
it's out of power at the moment and Labour was
elected only about a year ago. But reform is currently
(05:17):
ahead in the polls in Britain, and Farage claims that
reform has displaced the Conservative Party as the natural alternative
government in Britain. But we'll see about that. Um, he hasn't. Um,
interestingly enough, Trump hasn't taken overt sides in the politics
of any of it's the US's Indo-Pacific allies yet. But, um, interestingly,
(05:40):
Steve Bannon, uh, did broadcast an endorsement last week of
the conservative candidate in the South Korean election that we've
just seen occur. Um, he endorsed, uh, him. But once again,
the the MAGA endorsed candidate did not win in the
progressive candidate, uh, won in the South Korean election by
(06:00):
a decisive margin. So Trump's involvement doesn't necessarily indicate success,
but it is an interference. And this is a new, uh,
at least since the end of the Cold War, relatively
new conduct by American administrations and countries around the world
are going to have to be prepared for that. And
the other thing I'd just point out to Samantha, is
(06:22):
that this is a new set of American values being
endorsed and trying to be, you know, imposed on other countries.
The US, since World War two was in favor of
a much more liberal set of values where they supported democracy,
they supported human rights, they supported freedom of speech. Um,
(06:46):
in a liberal, small l liberal uh definition. This is
a very different set of values and attitudes, and it
boils right down into the detail of countries domestic affairs,
like the level of immigration they criticize and take sides
in other countries according to their immigration policy. So this
is a completely different set of values.
S1 (07:08):
Okay. And I just want to ask you how much
pushback we might likely to see from Europe in terms of,
you know, Trump's and his administration's meddling, really, because, you know,
we saw authoritarian expert Anne Applebaum. She made the point
just recently in an interview about Hungary, specifically saying she
wanted to issue what she called, quote, a regular reminder
that authoritarian populism will make your country corrupt and poor.
(07:31):
So how do you think European countries are going to
respond to what's happening?
S2 (07:36):
Well, they've already started responding in in one sense, which
is that when Trump made it clear that his sympathies
were with Russia over Ukraine, when he cut precipitously, cut
assistance to Ukraine, questioned the value of NATO. We have
seen one European leader after another say that they can't
rely on the US anymore. We've seen the new Chancellor
(07:59):
of Germany, the greatest power in Europe, say that he
and Germany will pursue, quote, independence from the US, unquote,
as a matter of national priority. So none of these
countries is enjoying none of the NATO allies is enjoying
his interventions. And some of the countries we've been talking
(08:22):
about Poland, Romania are NATO allies, and Trump is nakedly
getting involved in their domestic politics. I you know, this
is Trump thinks it helps his cause and the MAGA values.
But in the main countries of Europe, we see it
backfiring so far.
S1 (08:44):
We'll be right back. Okay. Now you've just mentioned that Trump,
you know, likes to nakedly get involved into other countries politics.
And you've written about a monumental announcement that I've got
to say I had missed until you wrote about it.
But it's super important. And this is something that Donald
Trump said on Thursday about how he plans to export
(09:05):
his MAGA revolution to the world. So what did he say?
S2 (09:09):
So until now, this a lot of this stuff has been, um,
you could interpret it as just Trump mouthing off rather
than structured into government policy. But on Thursday, US time
last week, uh, the administration notified the Congress that they
were going to create a new office within the State Department.
They gutted, they cut by something like 80% the existing
(09:31):
Bureau of Human Rights. Uh, and they have created something
called the Office of Natural Rights, which is a new,
new thing, new phenomenon. And it seems that this is
the vehicle by which, uh, well, it doesn't seem they
have announced, uh, Marco Rubio, Secretary of state, um, and
in the formal announcements have announced their intention that this
(09:54):
will be the vehicle to spread their values abroad through
the State Department and its and its machinations.
S1 (10:00):
Okay, so tell us, tell us about, you know, what
sort of values Trump's going to be championing.
S2 (10:04):
Yeah, well, we know MAGA values. There's not a precise
definition of natural rights, but there is a precise definition
of what natural rights are opposed to that we've seen
from the State Department. Last week, the so-called natural rights,
the Office of Natural Rights is going to be opposed
to digital censorship, as they call it, mass migration, restrictions
(10:25):
on religious freedom, and numerous other assaults on democratic self-governance.
But the one that Marco Rubio has most emphasized in
the last couple of weeks in an interview in the US,
was the right of countries to define come up with
their own definitions of free speech. Every country has some
(10:46):
sort of restraint definition of what's acceptable, what's not, what's
hate speech, what's libelous. Even the US has laws against
libel and slander. They're very liberal. Trump wouldn't like that description,
but they're very permissive. But they still have some standards.
And every country does. And Marco Rubio has indicated that
(11:07):
this is going to be the prime target. And if
I can just quote him, uh, he says that, um,
it's an Oval Office priority. He says that's a new
thing for us to have to raise in European capitals,
but we do it and we do it everywhere. And
I personally witnessed the president and the vice president raise
it with multiple foreign leaders. And I think you're going
(11:29):
to continue to see an emphasis on that in our
diplomacy and what we talk about. They've already put it
on the negotiating table with Britain, with Keir Starmer, where
Starmer has said a review of Britain's online safety rules
is underway because of pressure from Trump in trade negotiations.
So it's now become not just, uh, you know, a
(11:49):
bit of loose talk or a preferred, uh, position. It's
now become an item on the negotiating table where country's
commercial and economic interests are involved. Their ability, their right
to define their own laws around speech, internet regulation and
(12:10):
all of that are now a trade item on the table.
So this is this is new. Uh, it's it's obviously
got all sorts of ramifications for many countries, including Australia, because, uh,
we already have a series of laws that have tried
to impose some level of constraint on social media companies
(12:32):
in particular. But as you know, there's a forthcoming, uh,
ban that's been legislated by both major parties in our
parliament that would prevent 16 year olds and younger having
access to social media. Now, you can imagine the Trump
administration's line on that.
S1 (12:48):
And the backdrop to all of this is that our
very own Esafety Commissioner, Julie Inman Grant, she's been battling. Well,
I think it was Elon Musk at the time to
get a video taken down on X. So what sort
of struggles might we see going forward?
S2 (13:02):
Well, according to the Trump view of the world, uh,
then an American corporation or entity can do what it's
what it likes and say what it likes and that
and that. Any country that attempts to regulate, control or
limit that in any way is going to be subject
to punishment. And just last week, as part of this
whole agenda, um, the State Department, US State Department announced
(13:24):
they would put a visa ban on anyone from any
country who's complicit in what he called censorship in America.
So on that definition, anybody in the Australian government who's
got any involvement with the policy to ban, for example,
kids under 16 from social media, uh, would earn a
visa ban from the US. Who knows, maybe including the
(13:46):
Prime minister himself, since it's his policy. So this is
the beginning. We're just getting a glimpse of how this
new mega priority is going to be enacted through US
law and US foreign policy.
S1 (14:00):
Okay. So, Peter, I've got to ask you this. I'm
wondering whether all of this, everything we've discussed might be
sort of lighting a fire under the bodies, let's say,
of Democratic leaders in terms of how they might fight
against Trump and specifically the Democrats in the states, because, um,
Democratic Congressman Jim Himes gave a really revealing interview to
the rest of his politics just the other day about,
(14:22):
you know, why the Democrats lost so dismally to Trump.
And he he said his party was condescending, self-righteous around
social issues, immensely annoying around things like pronouns, and just
completely got it wrong in terms of the economic anxieties
of Americans. So do you think the Democrats are listening? Like,
are they taking note of all of this? Is this
(14:42):
a wake up call or slumber?
S2 (14:45):
I don't think the Democrats have really adjusted to the
shock and figured out the response, the critique of their
their election, which you've just run through. is entirely accurate.
What's the what's their answer? We don't know. It's not
enough just to admit what you've done wrong. You have
to figure out the future, and they've got some time
(15:07):
to do it. It's very frustrating for a lot of
Democrat supporters in the US that the party is still
reeling around, punch drunk, not knowing what to do. But
the party has to come up with a positive agenda
for the future, not just a denunciation of Donald Trump.
Can I add another thought on this? Natural rights campaigning
(15:28):
and attempt to export MAGA values to the world. One
of its effects is a tremendously useful distraction for Trump
because of his sympathies with Russia, with Saudi Arabia, with
autocratic regimes around the world, because he's so busy waging
these sort of political wars against European countries and democratic countries. Uh,
(15:53):
it deflects and detracts from what he should or could
be doing, and what traditionally US presidents would have done
with countries like Russia and leaders like Putin. It's helpful
to the whole autocratic movement and mindset around the world.
(16:15):
And in fact, the US has postponed the release of
its annual human rights report, which is congressionally mandated, but
they've delayed it, according to the reporting we've seen from
the US, because Trump is redefining human rights so that
he will. He told an audience in Saudi Arabia a
few weeks ago. He said, we're going to not going
to lecture foreign countries like that anymore. So that means, um,
(16:39):
the Saudis and the Russians apparently get a leave pass,
but Western Europe apparently gets the lectures now.
S1 (16:46):
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's grim, but it's best to
talk about this stuff.
S2 (16:50):
There's to know it and prepare for it.
S1 (16:52):
Yeah.
S2 (16:52):
Better armed and disarmed or unarmed.
S1 (16:55):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, as always, for your time.
S2 (16:58):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (17:07):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers, with technical assistance by Bella Anne Sanchez.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
(17:28):
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary
of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
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