April 28, 2025 • 16 mins
For decades, modern-day Welcome to Country ceremonies have been an established ritual in Australia, performed by Indigenous elders, far and wide.
But on Anzac Day last Friday, during the hush of the dawn service remembering war veterans, Bunurong and Gunditjmara elder Mark Brown was booed, and jeered at, while performing the ceremony in Melbourne.
And then that night, a planned Welcome to Country ceremony was ditched at a high-profile sporting event.
Today, federal politics reporter Natassia Crysanthos, on how - and why - the ritual has become weaponised. And Kamilaroi elder Uncle Len Waters, on what all Australians should be asking themselves now.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
April 29th. For decades, modern day welcome to country ceremonies
have been an established ritual in Australia, performed by indigenous
(00:21):
elders far and wide. Then came Anzac Day, when people
were stunned to see Bunurong elder, Mark Brown, booed and
jeered at while performing the ceremony in Melbourne. That night,
a planned Welcome to Country ceremony was ditched at a
high profile sporting event. Today, federal politics reporter Natassia Chrysanthos
(00:44):
on how and why the ritual has become weaponised. And
Kamilaroi elder uncle Lyn Waters on what all Australians should
be asking themselves now. So, Tess, first off, I just
have to say thank you so much for joining us
(01:04):
on the podcast, because you're joining us from Anthony Albanese's
bus on the campaign trail. So if for listeners, if
you hear any background noise, that's because you're getting things
right from the trail. But first off, I guess what
happened on Anzac Day last Friday morning.
S2 (01:18):
So Anzac Day, um, ceremonies these days, the big ones
you'll find often start with a Welcome to country, which
is a ceremony by an indigenous person, typically an elder
from a particular ancestral land, um, you know, dating back centuries.
S3 (01:35):
Good morning. I am uncle Mark Brown, and I'm an
elder and senior cultural heritage officer of the Bunurong people.
S2 (01:45):
They'll give a short speech that welcomes the audience to
that ancestral land.
S3 (01:53):
I'm a gunditjmara man on my mother's side. And I'm
a man of my father's side.
S2 (01:59):
So we saw that happen in Melbourne and in Perth.
And then these welcomes in the morning were interrupted by,
in Melbourne, several hecklers, one of whom was later confirmed
to be a known neo-Nazi.
S3 (02:11):
I'm here to welcome everybody to my father's country. Beautiful
boomerang country. But before we do that, we pay our
acknowledgments and we pay our respects. We pay our respects
to all of my ancestors.
S2 (02:29):
Who yelled out a range of things, including, you know,
we don't need to be welcomed. And we're escorted out.
And then a similar thing happened at a smaller scale
in Perth a few hours later as well.
S1 (02:38):
And so tell us what was happening, though, because these hecklers,
they weren't just fringe actors, right. What was going on?
S2 (02:44):
Yeah. So it was a coordinated in Melbourne. It was
a kind of coordinated event that was led by Jacob Hassan, who's,
you know, a Annoying kind of far right extremists, white supremacists.
S4 (02:58):
And the first Victorian convicted of performing a Nazi salute
heckled the governor and then the RSL itself at any
mention of being welcomed to country.
S5 (03:09):
They want to humiliate us over and over again. That's
what they do.
S2 (03:14):
Tapping into this real cultural war that has emerged around
Welcome to Country. Um, and you see it play out
a lot in the conservative media from time to time.
So you'll see it, you know, dominate discussion on Sky news.
You see it raised from time to time by conservative
or right wing senators in the Australian Parliament raising this
(03:36):
criticism or complaint. I suppose that we don't need to
be welcomed to our own country and people on on
that side of politics or those particular political beliefs, er
a range of complaints, one being that being that they're overdone,
being that they're Tokenistic, etc.. Um. And then I think
what we saw on Friday was this debate being hijacked
(04:00):
by the far right. And that is a that is
a common tactic in those circles, particularly in Australia, is to, um,
kind of latch on to these culture war debates and
position themselves as the anti-woke, if you will. Um, but
but what it really is, is a kind of outward
expression of what is a much more right wing ideology.
(04:23):
And in some cases, like we say, they're not neo-Nazis.
S1 (04:27):
And we have to mention that, you know, what happened
on Anzac Day, it wasn't actually confined to that one event,
because we've also seen reports about NRL team, the Melbourne
Storm cancelling a Welcome to Country at the very last
minute at its Anzac Day match. Right.
S2 (04:40):
Yeah. Melbourne Storm um, has kind of been toying with
what it thinks is the appropriate way to do. Welcome
to country ceremonies. There's been that conversation happening within the
Melbourne Storm for the last couple of months. Um, and
so then what you saw on Anzac Day, all of
this was happening. It was in the news. And then, um,
I think there was some confusion around the precise order
of events, but the outcome was that a planned welcome
(05:02):
to country at that game that evening did not go ahead.
S1 (05:05):
And Taz, you also mentioned just before you know that
we are hearing this refrain. We don't need to be
welcomed to our own country. We're hearing this, you know,
in debates in mainstream politics, on Sky news and whatnot,
it has become more common. So can you walk us through,
I guess, a bit more what the main point of
contention there is?
S2 (05:24):
Yeah. So I think the context really because welcome to
country and I think this is probably a good point
to um, clarify. Welcome to Country is a ceremony that
is performed, like I said, by an indigenous person on
their tribal land that welcomes people to that particular land.
It started happening in the 70s in Australia in kind
(05:48):
of contemporary events, but it taps into this ancient custom
that existed Pre-colonization and Indigenous Australia. This is different to
what is also increasingly common practice, which is an acknowledgement
of country. Now, an acknowledgement of country is typically given
by a non-Indigenous person. Um, and this is kind of
what you see more at the beginning of meetings or events,
(06:11):
sometimes in the workplace. So there are two different things
that have become conflated in this debate. People say, you know,
the welcomes are overdone. They don't need to be done
before every meeting at work. You're probably not talking about
a welcome in that context. You're talking about an acknowledgement. Um,
so they are different practices performed with different intentions.
S1 (06:31):
And tell us, though, what critics of Welcome to Country
are saying, because obviously we've got a lot of prominent
people speaking out against them, probably most notably Opposition Leader
Peter Dutton, who, you know, spoke about it, uh, during
the leader's debate just on Sunday night.
S6 (06:45):
For the start of every meeting at work or the
start of a football game. I think a lot of
Australians think it's overdone, and it cheapens the significance of
what it was meant to do. It's divide. It divides
the country. Not dissimilar to what the Prime Minister did
with I've got to go, got to go to the
Prime Minister.
S2 (07:01):
Yeah. So I think what you have in that rhetoric,
including from Dutton, was that conflation of those two things.
So he said, you know, welcome to countries. They're overdone.
You know, he says, I see the point to hold them,
for example, at the opening of Parliament every year, but
at the beginning of every meeting, at the beginning of
every sports game. They're overdone and they lose meaning. They
become rote. Um, and he also called them divisive. So what?
(07:24):
We think it's a range of different arguments there, because
on the one hand, you know, and Indigenous Australians themselves
would make an argument sometimes that, yes, if an acknowledgment
of country is performed all the time at the beginning
of everything and there's not a lot of meaning behind it,
it can become rote. That is, though, different to somebody
at a major event, you know, standing up there and
(07:45):
trying to welcome people to their ancestral lands and convey
some of that history that we were talking about before.
I think it is all looped into this kind of
zeitgeist anti-woke backlash that we've seen really accelerate with the
re-election of Donald Trump and since The Voice referendum as well.
S1 (08:01):
And so what is going to happen if the coalition
does form government? Like, do they have a solid plan
to ban or restrict welcome to country ceremonies?
S2 (08:10):
So insofar as the federal government is concerned, are federal
government departments at different events pay for welcome to country ceremonies?
You know, you see it a lot in the Department
of Foreign Affairs and Trade, for example, where there are
visiting dignitaries and they'll put on and pay for a
welcome to country and smoking ceremony as part of that
diplomatic connection, and also showing visitors what is a kind
(08:34):
of a central part of Australian culture. So you could
have and this is what the coalition federal coalition has said.
You could have them say, instruct government departments, no, we
don't want to spend money on that anymore. Right. And
then you might have federal government departments wind back how
they're doing them. That costs. Under FOI from the coalition.
It was revealed about half $1 million over two years.
(08:55):
So that is one lever that a federal government could pull.
As for sports games and things like that, you could
have a government exert pressure on major codes, um, to
try and influence behaviour, but it's not a legal issue,
you know? Then we come to people who give acknowledgements
(09:15):
of countries in their day to day practice when they're
giving a speech at a meeting. The federal government really
can't do anything about that at all. You know, they're
performed for free. Discretionally. It's it's more a conversation than
anything else.
S1 (09:29):
Taz, thank you so much for joining us on the
podcast this morning.
S2 (09:33):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (09:38):
After the break, Uncle Len Waters on what welcome to
country ceremonies really mean. Uncle Len Waters, thank you so
much for joining us on the podcast. Can you just
begin by telling us first who you are and what
your role is in performing? Welcome to country ceremonies.
S7 (09:56):
Yeah, well, my name Sam Len Waters. I'm a cameraman and, um,
originate from our mission station. And, yeah, as an elder,
you get invited to, um, do all sorts of work
on the country, whether it be government, sort of, um, organizations, um,
or whether it be community organizations, basically whatever people, um,
really require, you know, it could be a funeral or
(10:17):
it could even be, um, you know, a special message
like the one just went, um, it was an Anzac
Day mass.
S1 (10:24):
And can you just explain to us what a welcome
to country is?
S7 (10:27):
Well, the welcome to country is basically something that's not new.
It's been going on for, um, you know, centuries. And, um,
basically when other tribes used to trek a long way, um,
you know, by foot. Um, could even be hundreds of miles. And, um,
they would arrive at the tribal lands of the people
that invited them. And, um, basically, once they got there,
(10:48):
they would gather and, um, wait to be welcomed onto
their tribal lands. And, um, yeah, the main emphasis of it,
I suppose, is to renew old relationships and, um, to
make new relationships, but, um, importantly, to, um, mend relationships
that might have conflict because, um, if there was conflict there,
you weren't, um, invited on to country, weren't welcomed on country.
(11:12):
That's the way it sort of goes back for, um, millennia,
I suppose. But, um, um, it's only recently new, I suppose,
in Australia because, um, it's only been the last period
of time that people have been interested in Aboriginal culture
and customs and that sort of stuff. So it's one
thing that, um, over the ages, I suppose we weren't
allowed to practice. Um, you know, a lot of our
(11:33):
customs and, uh, ceremonial stuff. Um, yeah. And, um, even language.
So it's a case of, um, it means. Well, when, um,
you know, non-Aboriginal people are inviting you along to, um, um,
you know, to do, uh, a work on a country
to sort of signify that their event is, um, being
(11:55):
held on, um, you know, traditional lands of one tribe
or another.
S1 (11:59):
And what actually went through your mind when you heard
about uncle Mark Brown being booed during his welcome on
Anzac Day?
S7 (12:06):
I thought, um, yeah, it was very sort of, um, odd.
I mean, you know, sort of it's a bit like
somebody getting up and, um, heckling, um, somebody during the
Lord's Prayer or, you know, even sort of, um, the
national anthem or, um, or other things that people hold
dear to themselves. People more and more are becoming, uh,
(12:27):
more disrespectful of, um, of people in general, you know,
and we're just sort of people that, um, yeah, have
lost blocks. Compression. In a lot of ways.
S1 (12:36):
It does make me want to ask you, I guess,
what the impact of a debate like this and, you know,
all of this rhetoric questioning the existence of a welcome
to country, what sort of impact does it have on
indigenous people like yourself?
S7 (12:48):
Yeah. No, I just sort of think, you know, for myself,
with the case of, um, you know, um, we've come
so far, you know, we've lost so much and, um,
you know, to, um, you know, to deny, you know,
Australian people on these toilet practices, you know, um, I
just think it takes us backwards. And it was over
(13:10):
the weekend. I've seen many Dawn services or, um, sporting
matches and that sort of stuff where people are saying
the New Zealand anthem. Yeah. And, um, basically whether they
be indigenous to New Zealand or not, there is, um,
a certain section of that that is um, done in, um, uh,
in their language. And I think, you know, well, how
(13:32):
cool is that? You know, it's something to, um, really behold.
If we're to grow as a nation, you know, we've
got to sort of grow together and have these respectful
things put into play. And we start pulling these things
down now and taking us backwards. What does that say
about us as a, as a country? You know, um,
we've got a whole strong in a lot of things. And,
(13:54):
you know, by trying to bury or, um, disregard, um,
Aboriginal issues. Well, you know, we're not growing, you know,
we're not, um, we're not taking any steps forward.
S1 (14:07):
And I guess just to wrap up, I mean, what
would you like white Australians to perhaps remember when they're
thinking about and they're debating this issue?
S7 (14:15):
Well, I think two is the plight of Aboriginal, um,
history itself. You know, it's not a, a pretty history
and that sort of stuff. But, um, you know, and
as much as we want to say, well, yeah, let's
forget about the past, you Yeah, but you know, we've
got to hold the past there because, um, that's the
(14:36):
way we learn and that's the way people carry on
these legacies. It's one of these things where, um, you know,
get rid of it. And then what do we get
rid of? To get rid of. I welcome the country
to me is sort of, um, I just don't I
(14:58):
would sort of start to lose faith, I think, in, um,
in humanity itself.
S1 (15:02):
Yeah.
S7 (15:03):
You know, because I just sort of think. Yeah. What
type of people are we? Yeah. And, um, sure. You know,
we've got to be better than what we have been
in the past, but we're only going to get better
in the future if we allow ourselves to be better
in the future. And that means, you know, um, the
notion of, um, inclusiveness.
S1 (15:22):
I really appreciate you taking the time to, to speak
to me about this. So thank you so much, Uncle Len,
for your time.
S7 (15:29):
Well, thank you and good morning.
S1 (15:32):
And to you. Take care. Bye. Today's episode of The
Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is
our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as
soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
(15:52):
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
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of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
(16:16):
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Tuesday,
April 29th. For decades, modern day welcome to country ceremonies
have been an established ritual in Australia, performed by indigenous
(00:21):
elders far and wide. Then came Anzac Day, when people
were stunned to see Bunurong elder, Mark Brown, booed and
jeered at while performing the ceremony in Melbourne. That night,
a planned Welcome to Country ceremony was ditched at a
high profile sporting event. Today, federal politics reporter Natassia Chrysanthos
(00:44):
on how and why the ritual has become weaponised. And
Kamilaroi elder uncle Lyn Waters on what all Australians should
be asking themselves now. So, Tess, first off, I just
have to say thank you so much for joining us
(01:04):
on the podcast, because you're joining us from Anthony Albanese's
bus on the campaign trail. So if for listeners, if
you hear any background noise, that's because you're getting things
right from the trail. But first off, I guess what
happened on Anzac Day last Friday morning.
S2 (01:18):
So Anzac Day, um, ceremonies these days, the big ones
you'll find often start with a Welcome to country, which
is a ceremony by an indigenous person, typically an elder
from a particular ancestral land, um, you know, dating back centuries.
S3 (01:35):
Good morning. I am uncle Mark Brown, and I'm an
elder and senior cultural heritage officer of the Bunurong people.
S2 (01:45):
They'll give a short speech that welcomes the audience to
that ancestral land.
S3 (01:53):
I'm a gunditjmara man on my mother's side. And I'm
a man of my father's side.
S2 (01:59):
So we saw that happen in Melbourne and in Perth.
And then these welcomes in the morning were interrupted by,
in Melbourne, several hecklers, one of whom was later confirmed
to be a known neo-Nazi.
S3 (02:11):
I'm here to welcome everybody to my father's country. Beautiful
boomerang country. But before we do that, we pay our
acknowledgments and we pay our respects. We pay our respects
to all of my ancestors.
S2 (02:29):
Who yelled out a range of things, including, you know,
we don't need to be welcomed. And we're escorted out.
And then a similar thing happened at a smaller scale
in Perth a few hours later as well.
S1 (02:38):
And so tell us what was happening, though, because these hecklers,
they weren't just fringe actors, right. What was going on?
S2 (02:44):
Yeah. So it was a coordinated in Melbourne. It was
a kind of coordinated event that was led by Jacob Hassan, who's,
you know, a Annoying kind of far right extremists, white supremacists.
S4 (02:58):
And the first Victorian convicted of performing a Nazi salute
heckled the governor and then the RSL itself at any
mention of being welcomed to country.
S5 (03:09):
They want to humiliate us over and over again. That's
what they do.
S2 (03:14):
Tapping into this real cultural war that has emerged around
Welcome to Country. Um, and you see it play out
a lot in the conservative media from time to time.
So you'll see it, you know, dominate discussion on Sky news.
You see it raised from time to time by conservative
or right wing senators in the Australian Parliament raising this
(03:36):
criticism or complaint. I suppose that we don't need to
be welcomed to our own country and people on on
that side of politics or those particular political beliefs, er
a range of complaints, one being that being that they're overdone,
being that they're Tokenistic, etc.. Um. And then I think
what we saw on Friday was this debate being hijacked
(04:00):
by the far right. And that is a that is
a common tactic in those circles, particularly in Australia, is to, um,
kind of latch on to these culture war debates and
position themselves as the anti-woke, if you will. Um, but
but what it really is, is a kind of outward
expression of what is a much more right wing ideology.
(04:23):
And in some cases, like we say, they're not neo-Nazis.
S1 (04:27):
And we have to mention that, you know, what happened
on Anzac Day, it wasn't actually confined to that one event,
because we've also seen reports about NRL team, the Melbourne
Storm cancelling a Welcome to Country at the very last
minute at its Anzac Day match. Right.
S2 (04:40):
Yeah. Melbourne Storm um, has kind of been toying with
what it thinks is the appropriate way to do. Welcome
to country ceremonies. There's been that conversation happening within the
Melbourne Storm for the last couple of months. Um, and
so then what you saw on Anzac Day, all of
this was happening. It was in the news. And then, um,
I think there was some confusion around the precise order
of events, but the outcome was that a planned welcome
(05:02):
to country at that game that evening did not go ahead.
S1 (05:05):
And Taz, you also mentioned just before you know that
we are hearing this refrain. We don't need to be
welcomed to our own country. We're hearing this, you know,
in debates in mainstream politics, on Sky news and whatnot,
it has become more common. So can you walk us through,
I guess, a bit more what the main point of
contention there is?
S2 (05:24):
Yeah. So I think the context really because welcome to
country and I think this is probably a good point
to um, clarify. Welcome to Country is a ceremony that
is performed, like I said, by an indigenous person on
their tribal land that welcomes people to that particular land.
It started happening in the 70s in Australia in kind
(05:48):
of contemporary events, but it taps into this ancient custom
that existed Pre-colonization and Indigenous Australia. This is different to
what is also increasingly common practice, which is an acknowledgement
of country. Now, an acknowledgement of country is typically given
by a non-Indigenous person. Um, and this is kind of
what you see more at the beginning of meetings or events,
(06:11):
sometimes in the workplace. So there are two different things
that have become conflated in this debate. People say, you know,
the welcomes are overdone. They don't need to be done
before every meeting at work. You're probably not talking about
a welcome in that context. You're talking about an acknowledgement. Um,
so they are different practices performed with different intentions.
S1 (06:31):
And tell us, though, what critics of Welcome to Country
are saying, because obviously we've got a lot of prominent
people speaking out against them, probably most notably Opposition Leader
Peter Dutton, who, you know, spoke about it, uh, during
the leader's debate just on Sunday night.
S6 (06:45):
For the start of every meeting at work or the
start of a football game. I think a lot of
Australians think it's overdone, and it cheapens the significance of
what it was meant to do. It's divide. It divides
the country. Not dissimilar to what the Prime Minister did
with I've got to go, got to go to the
Prime Minister.
S2 (07:01):
Yeah. So I think what you have in that rhetoric,
including from Dutton, was that conflation of those two things.
So he said, you know, welcome to countries. They're overdone.
You know, he says, I see the point to hold them,
for example, at the opening of Parliament every year, but
at the beginning of every meeting, at the beginning of
every sports game. They're overdone and they lose meaning. They
become rote. Um, and he also called them divisive. So what?
(07:24):
We think it's a range of different arguments there, because
on the one hand, you know, and Indigenous Australians themselves
would make an argument sometimes that, yes, if an acknowledgment
of country is performed all the time at the beginning
of everything and there's not a lot of meaning behind it,
it can become rote. That is, though, different to somebody
at a major event, you know, standing up there and
(07:45):
trying to welcome people to their ancestral lands and convey
some of that history that we were talking about before.
I think it is all looped into this kind of
zeitgeist anti-woke backlash that we've seen really accelerate with the
re-election of Donald Trump and since The Voice referendum as well.
S1 (08:01):
And so what is going to happen if the coalition
does form government? Like, do they have a solid plan
to ban or restrict welcome to country ceremonies?
S2 (08:10):
So insofar as the federal government is concerned, are federal
government departments at different events pay for welcome to country ceremonies?
You know, you see it a lot in the Department
of Foreign Affairs and Trade, for example, where there are
visiting dignitaries and they'll put on and pay for a
welcome to country and smoking ceremony as part of that
diplomatic connection, and also showing visitors what is a kind
(08:34):
of a central part of Australian culture. So you could
have and this is what the coalition federal coalition has said.
You could have them say, instruct government departments, no, we
don't want to spend money on that anymore. Right. And
then you might have federal government departments wind back how
they're doing them. That costs. Under FOI from the coalition.
It was revealed about half $1 million over two years.
(08:55):
So that is one lever that a federal government could pull.
As for sports games and things like that, you could
have a government exert pressure on major codes, um, to
try and influence behaviour, but it's not a legal issue,
you know? Then we come to people who give acknowledgements
(09:15):
of countries in their day to day practice when they're
giving a speech at a meeting. The federal government really
can't do anything about that at all. You know, they're
performed for free. Discretionally. It's it's more a conversation than
anything else.
S1 (09:29):
Taz, thank you so much for joining us on the
podcast this morning.
S2 (09:33):
Thank you for having me.
S1 (09:38):
After the break, Uncle Len Waters on what welcome to
country ceremonies really mean. Uncle Len Waters, thank you so
much for joining us on the podcast. Can you just
begin by telling us first who you are and what
your role is in performing? Welcome to country ceremonies.
S7 (09:56):
Yeah, well, my name Sam Len Waters. I'm a cameraman and, um,
originate from our mission station. And, yeah, as an elder,
you get invited to, um, do all sorts of work
on the country, whether it be government, sort of, um, organizations, um,
or whether it be community organizations, basically whatever people, um,
really require, you know, it could be a funeral or
(10:17):
it could even be, um, you know, a special message
like the one just went, um, it was an Anzac
Day mass.
S1 (10:24):
And can you just explain to us what a welcome
to country is?
S7 (10:27):
Well, the welcome to country is basically something that's not new.
It's been going on for, um, you know, centuries. And, um,
basically when other tribes used to trek a long way, um,
you know, by foot. Um, could even be hundreds of miles. And, um,
they would arrive at the tribal lands of the people
that invited them. And, um, basically, once they got there,
(10:48):
they would gather and, um, wait to be welcomed onto
their tribal lands. And, um, yeah, the main emphasis of it,
I suppose, is to renew old relationships and, um, to
make new relationships, but, um, importantly, to, um, mend relationships
that might have conflict because, um, if there was conflict there,
you weren't, um, invited on to country, weren't welcomed on country.
(11:12):
That's the way it sort of goes back for, um, millennia,
I suppose. But, um, um, it's only recently new, I suppose,
in Australia because, um, it's only been the last period
of time that people have been interested in Aboriginal culture
and customs and that sort of stuff. So it's one
thing that, um, over the ages, I suppose we weren't
allowed to practice. Um, you know, a lot of our
(11:33):
customs and, uh, ceremonial stuff. Um, yeah. And, um, even language.
So it's a case of, um, it means. Well, when, um,
you know, non-Aboriginal people are inviting you along to, um, um,
you know, to do, uh, a work on a country
to sort of signify that their event is, um, being
(11:55):
held on, um, you know, traditional lands of one tribe
or another.
S1 (11:59):
And what actually went through your mind when you heard
about uncle Mark Brown being booed during his welcome on
Anzac Day?
S7 (12:06):
I thought, um, yeah, it was very sort of, um, odd.
I mean, you know, sort of it's a bit like
somebody getting up and, um, heckling, um, somebody during the
Lord's Prayer or, you know, even sort of, um, the
national anthem or, um, or other things that people hold
dear to themselves. People more and more are becoming, uh,
(12:27):
more disrespectful of, um, of people in general, you know,
and we're just sort of people that, um, yeah, have
lost blocks. Compression. In a lot of ways.
S1 (12:36):
It does make me want to ask you, I guess,
what the impact of a debate like this and, you know,
all of this rhetoric questioning the existence of a welcome
to country, what sort of impact does it have on
indigenous people like yourself?
S7 (12:48):
Yeah. No, I just sort of think, you know, for myself,
with the case of, um, you know, um, we've come
so far, you know, we've lost so much and, um,
you know, to, um, you know, to deny, you know,
Australian people on these toilet practices, you know, um, I
just think it takes us backwards. And it was over
(13:10):
the weekend. I've seen many Dawn services or, um, sporting
matches and that sort of stuff where people are saying
the New Zealand anthem. Yeah. And, um, basically whether they
be indigenous to New Zealand or not, there is, um,
a certain section of that that is um, done in, um, uh,
in their language. And I think, you know, well, how
(13:32):
cool is that? You know, it's something to, um, really behold.
If we're to grow as a nation, you know, we've
got to sort of grow together and have these respectful
things put into play. And we start pulling these things
down now and taking us backwards. What does that say
about us as a, as a country? You know, um,
we've got a whole strong in a lot of things. And,
(13:54):
you know, by trying to bury or, um, disregard, um,
Aboriginal issues. Well, you know, we're not growing, you know,
we're not, um, we're not taking any steps forward.
S1 (14:07):
And I guess just to wrap up, I mean, what
would you like white Australians to perhaps remember when they're
thinking about and they're debating this issue?
S7 (14:15):
Well, I think two is the plight of Aboriginal, um,
history itself. You know, it's not a, a pretty history
and that sort of stuff. But, um, you know, and
as much as we want to say, well, yeah, let's
forget about the past, you Yeah, but you know, we've
got to hold the past there because, um, that's the
(14:36):
way we learn and that's the way people carry on
these legacies. It's one of these things where, um, you know,
get rid of it. And then what do we get
rid of? To get rid of. I welcome the country
to me is sort of, um, I just don't I
(14:58):
would sort of start to lose faith, I think, in, um,
in humanity itself.
S1 (15:02):
Yeah.
S7 (15:03):
You know, because I just sort of think. Yeah. What
type of people are we? Yeah. And, um, sure. You know,
we've got to be better than what we have been
in the past, but we're only going to get better
in the future if we allow ourselves to be better
in the future. And that means, you know, um, the
notion of, um, inclusiveness.
S1 (15:22):
I really appreciate you taking the time to, to speak
to me about this. So thank you so much, Uncle Len,
for your time.
S7 (15:29):
Well, thank you and good morning.
S1 (15:32):
And to you. Take care. Bye. Today's episode of The
Morning Edition was produced by Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is
our head of audio. To listen to our episodes as
soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
(15:52):
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morning Edition newsletter to receive a summary
of the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
(16:16):
Thanks for listening.
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