August 4, 2025 • 16 mins
Picture this. A man has been convicted of rape. And as he sits in his prison cell, awaiting a sentence, he continues to be paid his taxpayer funded salary of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. He hasn’t been fired.
It might sound implausible. But this case is playing out right now, with a NSW member of parliament.
Today, state political editor Alexandra Smith on the case of Gareth Ward. And why behaviour that would get you fired from any job in the private sector, doesn’t automatically rule you out of making the law.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Tuesday,
August 5th. Picture this. A man has been convicted of rape,
and as he sits in his prison cell awaiting a sentence,
(00:21):
he continues to be paid his taxpayer funded salary of
hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. He hasn't been fired.
It might sound implausible, but this case is playing out
right now with a New South Wales Member of Parliament today.
State political editor Alexandra Smith on the case of Gareth
Ward and why behaviour that would get you fired from
(00:43):
any job in the private sector doesn't automatically rule you
out of making the law. So, Alex, let's start with
Gareth Ward. Tell us who he is and what he's done.
S2 (00:58):
So Gareth Ward is a former Liberal MP turned independent.
He was elected to New South Wales Parliament for the
New South Wales regional south coast seat of Kiama in 2011,
and he went on to become a minister in the
Berejiklian government, the Minister for families. Now, by all accounts
and most people will agree, Gareth Ward has been a
(01:19):
very effective, successful, hard working member. But then he was
charged with some historical sexual assault offences. And at that point,
it was prior to the last state election, prior to
the 2023 election, he had to move to the crossbench.
The liberals obviously could no longer keep him in their
party room, and he moved to the crossbench, and he
(01:41):
then contested the state seat of Kiama again as an
independent in the 2023 election and was re-elected.
S1 (01:48):
And then, of course, last week we got some major news.
So tell us what happened.
S2 (01:53):
After many delays, Gareth Ward's trial got underway and last
week he was found guilty of four counts of sexual
assault offences dating back to 2013 and 2015.
S3 (02:08):
Disgraced former minister and state MP Gareth Ward is tonight
behind bars after his bail was revoked following his sexual
assault convictions. The member for Kiama gave no reaction as
he was handcuffed in court and will be sentenced next month.
S2 (02:24):
They related to an incident in the south coast involving
an 18 year old man in 2013, and then a
24 year old man in Sydney after an event at
Parliament House in 2015. Both those men met Gareth Ward
through his role in politics. He is now in prison
(02:45):
and has indicated that he intends to lodge an appeal
against his conviction. But what that also means is that
he is still the MP for Kiama. He is still
receiving a taxpayer funded salary while he is in prison.
S1 (03:00):
Okay, I really want to get into this because it's
been so confounding to me. But first, just tell us
what was the reaction to his guilty verdict last week?
S2 (03:09):
Well, I think there was a lot of shock, to
be honest, particularly amongst his former Liberal colleagues, because Gareth
Ward was absolutely adamant from the moment he was charged
that there was nothing to see.
S4 (03:19):
Gareth Ward wrote to constituents advising them of the charges
and declaring I am innocent and I intend to prove it.
I've instructed my lawyers to use every available procedural avenue
to bring this matter to trial as quickly as possible.
S2 (03:34):
He was very clear, relentless, that these charges were completely unreasonable.
We're not going to proceed. He would be found not guilty.
And I think most of his colleagues really believed that.
He really convinced them over several years that he had
done nothing wrong and he would be found not guilty.
I mean, Gareth Ward's been around the Liberal Party since
(03:55):
he was a teenager. He knows many, many people. He's
worked with people for so long and I think they
really found it quite shocking.
S1 (04:02):
Well, let's get to the crux, really, of why we're
speaking about today. Because as you've mentioned, you know, he's
been found guilty of sexual abuse. He's now sitting in jail.
But we do have this extraordinary situation where he remains
the MP for Kiama. So how is this possible?
S2 (04:17):
Well, under the New South Wales Constitution, which is actually
an act of Parliament rather than a constitution in the
federal sense, it says that an MP will have their
seat vacated if they are a bankrupt, or if they
are found guilty of an offence that is punishable by
imprisonment of five years or more. That doesn't mean you
(04:37):
have to get that sentence, but if it's a crime
that you're found guilty of, um, that means you're ineligible
to stay in Parliament. But what the act also says
is this occurs after your appeal process has been exhausted.
And this is where the tricky situation is now, because
Gareth Ward has indicated that he's going to appeal. So
under the act, he's essentially still able to sit in Parliament. Obviously,
(05:02):
this is such a rare situation, you know, so rarely
across the last century. Plus has this happened. And in
pretty much every other case that I can find, the
MPs who have been convicted of a crime have resigned
their seat before it got to a point where they
were found guilty. So it's a really unique situation. But
(05:22):
the problem is, of course, there is a lot of
concern about having an MP in prison still being the
member for Kiama.
S5 (05:30):
And then we've got another.
S1 (05:31):
Situation which is related. We've got current MP and former
labor leader Mark Latham. You've written about him quite a bit.
This is another case about a sort of remarkable situation
where you've got someone who's exhibited a type of workplace
conduct where you would get fired, right, if you were
at a private company, if you were, as he has done,
taking covert pictures of female colleagues, for instance, and, you know,
verbally attacking people. But there he sits in New South
(05:54):
Wales parliament. So tell us about that.
S2 (05:56):
Well that's right. I mean, I guess it's important to
note that, um, of course, Mark Latham, who is now
an independent, is not under any criminal charges while he
has had accusations made against him of domestic abuse by
his former partner, there are no criminal charges pending. Police
are not investigating at this point.
S6 (06:17):
Even by Mark Latham's standards. It's been a tumultuous week
and today, facing domestic violence claims, he attempted to plead
his case.
S7 (06:27):
I have broken no law.
S2 (06:29):
Nonetheless, aside from that, he has displayed repeatedly for a
very long period of time some incredibly inappropriate behaviour in
the workplace. And as you say, it's behaviour that wouldn't
be tolerated anywhere else. And we're talking about being able to,
under parliamentary privilege, make all sorts of very nasty attacks
(06:49):
against people.
S6 (06:50):
And a rant on everything from the premier.
S7 (06:53):
And what's next. Chris Menzel burst in with a six
pack to enemies. If he's a journalist, then I'm Santa
Claus and you're shaking there. You must be worried about
your own voyeur. Oh, oh. Shaky fake media.
S6 (07:05):
Then his relationship with Natalie.
S2 (07:07):
As well as taking, as you said, covert photos of
females in the chamber.
S8 (07:13):
Caught sexting, now accused of photographing and objectifying his upper
house colleagues while being paid to represent the people of
New South Wales, according to leaked text messages.
S2 (07:24):
He actually then did apologize because he didn't intend for
those photos to emerge anywhere other than between him and
his former partner, who were discussing the women in disparaging terms.
S7 (07:36):
I did, though, make a mistake in taking two photos
in the chamber and then trusting them privately to Natalie Matthews.
I've apologized to both Susan Carter and Abigail Boyd, and
they've accepted my apology, for which I thank them both sincerely.
S2 (07:48):
While it's also a very interesting situation, although very different
to the Gareth Ward situation, because what we have is
Mark Latham was elected to Parliament. There are a group
of people, whether we agree with their views or not,
who do agree with Mark Latham and wanted him there
as their representative, and I think it raises some really
serious issues because on the one hand, we cannot have
(08:11):
a situation where we remove people from Parliament because we
don't like them or we don't like their views. Nonetheless,
in a modern workplace, I think it's reasonable that people
expect to be treated in a certain way. And that
is not always the case with Mark Latham.
S1 (08:27):
We'll be right back.
S5 (08:36):
And so just.
S1 (08:36):
Back to Gareth Ward for a moment. So where are
things at? We know he's sitting in prison. You've mentioned
there that he might appeal. So I'm assuming he hasn't
been sentenced yet has he.
S2 (08:46):
No, no. And that will take some time, as will
an appeal. So you've got this extraordinary situation where he
could remain in prison for quite some time, still as
a member of Parliament. But what the government has indicated
they intend to do this week, when Parliament resumes, is
move a motion to have him expelled. Now, that's pretty serious, obviously,
(09:07):
and pretty significant. There is part of the act which
says that a member of Parliament can be expelled for
unworthy conduct, and Premier Chris Minns has said he has
legal advice that says the parliament can remove Gareth Ward.
I assume that's looking at the unworthy conduct part of
the act. Nonetheless, it's still probably quite tricky because as
(09:30):
it stands, you know, the idea is that you're not
expelled until your appeal process has expired. So it's going
to be really interesting to see how it plays out
this week in Parliament, and whether the Parliament does, in
fact ultimately get rid of Gareth Ward this week.
S5 (09:45):
Well, let's talk about that.
S1 (09:46):
I mean, if this motion to expel Ward is actually
passed today. Is that where it ends?
S2 (09:52):
Well, yes, I mean, I do. I have been speaking
to some people this morning, some legal experts who say
he may well be able to challenge that expulsion, but
I think what would happen is, yes, it would end there.
And then we would see a by election in Kiama
for a new MP. And it needs to be said
once somebody has that seat and say they've won it
in a by election. Even if Gareth Ward was then
(10:16):
found not guilty through the appeal process, he doesn't get
his seat back. You know, he could run again. But
the new MP for Kiama is the new MP.
S5 (10:24):
And I've got to ask, like, couldn't.
S1 (10:26):
The lower house have used powers of expulsion earlier? You know,
like as soon as he was charged, why didn't they.
And was he suspended?
S2 (10:35):
Well, they did initially. When he was first charged, they
suspended him. And so he wasn't allowed to come into
the parliamentary precinct, which meant he really wasn't able to
do his job all that effectively. Nonetheless, he could be
in his community dealing with constituents, but he couldn't bring
their concerns into the Parliament. The problem was, of course, though,
was then at the 2023 election, Gareth Ward was re-elected,
(10:57):
so the voters of Kiama returned Gareth with the full
knowledge that he had these very serious criminal charges hanging
over him. Once that happened, the Parliament could not then
take any other steps against Gareth Ward because at the
end of the day, the voters knew what they were getting,
you know, in Gareth Ward and they voted for him.
S1 (11:16):
So does that mean that he's been paid the entire time,
like us taxpayers were footing the bill for this man's salary?
S2 (11:21):
Yeah, that's right. He's been paid since the moment he
was charged in 2021, even when he was suspended. And
that was a suspension from the parliamentary precinct. But he
was still the MP for Kiama. So, yes, he's been
on his taxpayer salary since the charges were first laid.
S5 (11:37):
Just curious.
S1 (11:37):
Do we know what the salary is?
S2 (11:39):
So Gareth Ward receives a base salary of about 180,000,
but he also gets an electoral allowance, which is an
extra 102,000, and then also a little bit extra for
winning his seat as an independent. So his salary is
pretty significant. It is well over 250,000 a year, probably
closer to to getting close to 300,000.
S5 (12:00):
I mean, I have.
S1 (12:01):
To ask, do situations like this exist in other states
and territories or federally where, you know, you get a
situation where someone is charged and convicted of a very
serious crime and then still remains in Parliament.
S2 (12:14):
Well, very interestingly, um, New South Wales threshold for remaining
in Parliament is actually higher than, say, for example, federally
in New South Wales. As I said earlier, your seat
is vacated. If you're found guilty of a crime that
comes with it, a jail term of five years or
more in federal parliament, it's only one year or more.
So that really lowers the bar. That said, you know,
(12:36):
it needs to be stressed that it is very rare
for a member of Parliament to a be charged with
such serious offences and be found guilty. So it's just
simply not an issue that comes up at all regularly,
which is why it's so incredible really at this point.
S5 (12:53):
And so what needs to.
S1 (12:54):
Change here and how does it change?
S2 (12:57):
Well, I think the issue around an MP being found
guilty is quite unique, and I think it will probably
set up some precedents once we see how the issue
with Gareth Ward is dealt with. I think on the
other issue of of Mark Latham, I do really believe
we need to enforce better standards of behaviour in Parliament,
(13:18):
which is a workplace. You know, you're elected to Parliament
to represent voters. Your behaviour should be exemplary and I
don't think anyone would disagree around with that. The problem
is it's very hard to force people to behave in
a certain way, particularly when you have privileges such as
parliamentary privilege, where in order to allow you to do
your job, you are protected from defamation, so you can
(13:41):
get up into the in the house and speak freely
at the same time. It also allows you to attack
people you know quite cruelly at times. So I think
really the emphasis has to be on finding ways that
we can ensure that Parliament's, whether it's New South Wales, federal, any,
meet the expectations of a modern workplace.
S1 (14:03):
I mean, it really is amazing. I'm just. Just as
the last question, I guess. Do you and your colleagues
in the Parliament, are you just scratching your heads at
the people who are making our laws are not subjected
to the same standards of behaviour that you and I
are expected to meet in our own workplaces? I mean,
it's bizarre, right?
S2 (14:21):
Oh, absolutely. And I should just say, you know, while
Mark Latham's behaviour is probably at one end of the scale,
I do often sit in Parliament in Question Time and
I watch the schoolchildren come in for excursions, and they
watch the behaviour and the way that MPs talk to
each other. I know it's called the Bear Pit in
New South Wales because it is so confrontational and it
(14:43):
is like, you know, a blood sport. But the behavior
where we that I exhibit, I just shake my head.
And sometimes I do wonder how these MPs think it's
okay to behave like this. You know, scream across the
chamber at each other. As you know, the next generation
of young people watch on. You know, in many ways
it's almost like we've just come to accept it. You know,
(15:04):
as I said, it's called the Bear Pit. That's a
really historical name where it's all about sort of blood
sport on the floor of Parliament. That's fine, I suppose,
100 years ago. But we have moved on and people
expect different standards now. And as I keep saying, and
I know I've said it over and over, but Parliament
is also a workplace. There are other people that work there,
not just MPs. There are staffers, there are parliamentary staff
(15:26):
who have to interact with people and interact with their behaviour,
and we have to make sure it's a modern workplace.
S1 (15:34):
Well, Alex, it is such a fascinating topic. Thank you
so much for your time.
S2 (15:39):
Thanks, Sam.
S1 (15:49):
Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so
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(16:14):
and to stay up to date, sign up to our
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the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Tuesday,
August 5th. Picture this. A man has been convicted of rape,
and as he sits in his prison cell awaiting a sentence,
(00:21):
he continues to be paid his taxpayer funded salary of
hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. He hasn't been fired.
It might sound implausible, but this case is playing out
right now with a New South Wales Member of Parliament today.
State political editor Alexandra Smith on the case of Gareth
Ward and why behaviour that would get you fired from
(00:43):
any job in the private sector doesn't automatically rule you
out of making the law. So, Alex, let's start with
Gareth Ward. Tell us who he is and what he's done.
S2 (00:58):
So Gareth Ward is a former Liberal MP turned independent.
He was elected to New South Wales Parliament for the
New South Wales regional south coast seat of Kiama in 2011,
and he went on to become a minister in the
Berejiklian government, the Minister for families. Now, by all accounts
and most people will agree, Gareth Ward has been a
(01:19):
very effective, successful, hard working member. But then he was
charged with some historical sexual assault offences. And at that point,
it was prior to the last state election, prior to
the 2023 election, he had to move to the crossbench.
The liberals obviously could no longer keep him in their
party room, and he moved to the crossbench, and he
(01:41):
then contested the state seat of Kiama again as an
independent in the 2023 election and was re-elected.
S1 (01:48):
And then, of course, last week we got some major news.
So tell us what happened.
S2 (01:53):
After many delays, Gareth Ward's trial got underway and last
week he was found guilty of four counts of sexual
assault offences dating back to 2013 and 2015.
S3 (02:08):
Disgraced former minister and state MP Gareth Ward is tonight
behind bars after his bail was revoked following his sexual
assault convictions. The member for Kiama gave no reaction as
he was handcuffed in court and will be sentenced next month.
S2 (02:24):
They related to an incident in the south coast involving
an 18 year old man in 2013, and then a
24 year old man in Sydney after an event at
Parliament House in 2015. Both those men met Gareth Ward
through his role in politics. He is now in prison
(02:45):
and has indicated that he intends to lodge an appeal
against his conviction. But what that also means is that
he is still the MP for Kiama. He is still
receiving a taxpayer funded salary while he is in prison.
S1 (03:00):
Okay, I really want to get into this because it's
been so confounding to me. But first, just tell us
what was the reaction to his guilty verdict last week?
S2 (03:09):
Well, I think there was a lot of shock, to
be honest, particularly amongst his former Liberal colleagues, because Gareth
Ward was absolutely adamant from the moment he was charged
that there was nothing to see.
S4 (03:19):
Gareth Ward wrote to constituents advising them of the charges
and declaring I am innocent and I intend to prove it.
I've instructed my lawyers to use every available procedural avenue
to bring this matter to trial as quickly as possible.
S2 (03:34):
He was very clear, relentless, that these charges were completely unreasonable.
We're not going to proceed. He would be found not guilty.
And I think most of his colleagues really believed that.
He really convinced them over several years that he had
done nothing wrong and he would be found not guilty.
I mean, Gareth Ward's been around the Liberal Party since
(03:55):
he was a teenager. He knows many, many people. He's
worked with people for so long and I think they
really found it quite shocking.
S1 (04:02):
Well, let's get to the crux, really, of why we're
speaking about today. Because as you've mentioned, you know, he's
been found guilty of sexual abuse. He's now sitting in jail.
But we do have this extraordinary situation where he remains
the MP for Kiama. So how is this possible?
S2 (04:17):
Well, under the New South Wales Constitution, which is actually
an act of Parliament rather than a constitution in the
federal sense, it says that an MP will have their
seat vacated if they are a bankrupt, or if they
are found guilty of an offence that is punishable by
imprisonment of five years or more. That doesn't mean you
(04:37):
have to get that sentence, but if it's a crime
that you're found guilty of, um, that means you're ineligible
to stay in Parliament. But what the act also says
is this occurs after your appeal process has been exhausted.
And this is where the tricky situation is now, because
Gareth Ward has indicated that he's going to appeal. So
under the act, he's essentially still able to sit in Parliament. Obviously,
(05:02):
this is such a rare situation, you know, so rarely
across the last century. Plus has this happened. And in
pretty much every other case that I can find, the
MPs who have been convicted of a crime have resigned
their seat before it got to a point where they
were found guilty. So it's a really unique situation. But
(05:22):
the problem is, of course, there is a lot of
concern about having an MP in prison still being the
member for Kiama.
S5 (05:30):
And then we've got another.
S1 (05:31):
Situation which is related. We've got current MP and former
labor leader Mark Latham. You've written about him quite a bit.
This is another case about a sort of remarkable situation
where you've got someone who's exhibited a type of workplace
conduct where you would get fired, right, if you were
at a private company, if you were, as he has done,
taking covert pictures of female colleagues, for instance, and, you know,
verbally attacking people. But there he sits in New South
(05:54):
Wales parliament. So tell us about that.
S2 (05:56):
Well that's right. I mean, I guess it's important to
note that, um, of course, Mark Latham, who is now
an independent, is not under any criminal charges while he
has had accusations made against him of domestic abuse by
his former partner, there are no criminal charges pending. Police
are not investigating at this point.
S6 (06:17):
Even by Mark Latham's standards. It's been a tumultuous week
and today, facing domestic violence claims, he attempted to plead
his case.
S7 (06:27):
I have broken no law.
S2 (06:29):
Nonetheless, aside from that, he has displayed repeatedly for a
very long period of time some incredibly inappropriate behaviour in
the workplace. And as you say, it's behaviour that wouldn't
be tolerated anywhere else. And we're talking about being able to,
under parliamentary privilege, make all sorts of very nasty attacks
(06:49):
against people.
S6 (06:50):
And a rant on everything from the premier.
S7 (06:53):
And what's next. Chris Menzel burst in with a six
pack to enemies. If he's a journalist, then I'm Santa
Claus and you're shaking there. You must be worried about
your own voyeur. Oh, oh. Shaky fake media.
S6 (07:05):
Then his relationship with Natalie.
S2 (07:07):
As well as taking, as you said, covert photos of
females in the chamber.
S8 (07:13):
Caught sexting, now accused of photographing and objectifying his upper
house colleagues while being paid to represent the people of
New South Wales, according to leaked text messages.
S2 (07:24):
He actually then did apologize because he didn't intend for
those photos to emerge anywhere other than between him and
his former partner, who were discussing the women in disparaging terms.
S7 (07:36):
I did, though, make a mistake in taking two photos
in the chamber and then trusting them privately to Natalie Matthews.
I've apologized to both Susan Carter and Abigail Boyd, and
they've accepted my apology, for which I thank them both sincerely.
S2 (07:48):
While it's also a very interesting situation, although very different
to the Gareth Ward situation, because what we have is
Mark Latham was elected to Parliament. There are a group
of people, whether we agree with their views or not,
who do agree with Mark Latham and wanted him there
as their representative, and I think it raises some really
serious issues because on the one hand, we cannot have
(08:11):
a situation where we remove people from Parliament because we
don't like them or we don't like their views. Nonetheless,
in a modern workplace, I think it's reasonable that people
expect to be treated in a certain way. And that
is not always the case with Mark Latham.
S1 (08:27):
We'll be right back.
S5 (08:36):
And so just.
S1 (08:36):
Back to Gareth Ward for a moment. So where are
things at? We know he's sitting in prison. You've mentioned
there that he might appeal. So I'm assuming he hasn't
been sentenced yet has he.
S2 (08:46):
No, no. And that will take some time, as will
an appeal. So you've got this extraordinary situation where he
could remain in prison for quite some time, still as
a member of Parliament. But what the government has indicated
they intend to do this week, when Parliament resumes, is
move a motion to have him expelled. Now, that's pretty serious, obviously,
(09:07):
and pretty significant. There is part of the act which
says that a member of Parliament can be expelled for
unworthy conduct, and Premier Chris Minns has said he has
legal advice that says the parliament can remove Gareth Ward.
I assume that's looking at the unworthy conduct part of
the act. Nonetheless, it's still probably quite tricky because as
(09:30):
it stands, you know, the idea is that you're not
expelled until your appeal process has expired. So it's going
to be really interesting to see how it plays out
this week in Parliament, and whether the Parliament does, in
fact ultimately get rid of Gareth Ward this week.
S5 (09:45):
Well, let's talk about that.
S1 (09:46):
I mean, if this motion to expel Ward is actually
passed today. Is that where it ends?
S2 (09:52):
Well, yes, I mean, I do. I have been speaking
to some people this morning, some legal experts who say
he may well be able to challenge that expulsion, but
I think what would happen is, yes, it would end there.
And then we would see a by election in Kiama
for a new MP. And it needs to be said
once somebody has that seat and say they've won it
in a by election. Even if Gareth Ward was then
(10:16):
found not guilty through the appeal process, he doesn't get
his seat back. You know, he could run again. But
the new MP for Kiama is the new MP.
S5 (10:24):
And I've got to ask, like, couldn't.
S1 (10:26):
The lower house have used powers of expulsion earlier? You know,
like as soon as he was charged, why didn't they.
And was he suspended?
S2 (10:35):
Well, they did initially. When he was first charged, they
suspended him. And so he wasn't allowed to come into
the parliamentary precinct, which meant he really wasn't able to
do his job all that effectively. Nonetheless, he could be
in his community dealing with constituents, but he couldn't bring
their concerns into the Parliament. The problem was, of course, though,
was then at the 2023 election, Gareth Ward was re-elected,
(10:57):
so the voters of Kiama returned Gareth with the full
knowledge that he had these very serious criminal charges hanging
over him. Once that happened, the Parliament could not then
take any other steps against Gareth Ward because at the
end of the day, the voters knew what they were getting,
you know, in Gareth Ward and they voted for him.
S1 (11:16):
So does that mean that he's been paid the entire time,
like us taxpayers were footing the bill for this man's salary?
S2 (11:21):
Yeah, that's right. He's been paid since the moment he
was charged in 2021, even when he was suspended. And
that was a suspension from the parliamentary precinct. But he
was still the MP for Kiama. So, yes, he's been
on his taxpayer salary since the charges were first laid.
S5 (11:37):
Just curious.
S1 (11:37):
Do we know what the salary is?
S2 (11:39):
So Gareth Ward receives a base salary of about 180,000,
but he also gets an electoral allowance, which is an
extra 102,000, and then also a little bit extra for
winning his seat as an independent. So his salary is
pretty significant. It is well over 250,000 a year, probably
closer to to getting close to 300,000.
S5 (12:00):
I mean, I have.
S1 (12:01):
To ask, do situations like this exist in other states
and territories or federally where, you know, you get a
situation where someone is charged and convicted of a very
serious crime and then still remains in Parliament.
S2 (12:14):
Well, very interestingly, um, New South Wales threshold for remaining
in Parliament is actually higher than, say, for example, federally
in New South Wales. As I said earlier, your seat
is vacated. If you're found guilty of a crime that
comes with it, a jail term of five years or
more in federal parliament, it's only one year or more.
So that really lowers the bar. That said, you know,
(12:36):
it needs to be stressed that it is very rare
for a member of Parliament to a be charged with
such serious offences and be found guilty. So it's just
simply not an issue that comes up at all regularly,
which is why it's so incredible really at this point.
S5 (12:53):
And so what needs to.
S1 (12:54):
Change here and how does it change?
S2 (12:57):
Well, I think the issue around an MP being found
guilty is quite unique, and I think it will probably
set up some precedents once we see how the issue
with Gareth Ward is dealt with. I think on the
other issue of of Mark Latham, I do really believe
we need to enforce better standards of behaviour in Parliament,
(13:18):
which is a workplace. You know, you're elected to Parliament
to represent voters. Your behaviour should be exemplary and I
don't think anyone would disagree around with that. The problem
is it's very hard to force people to behave in
a certain way, particularly when you have privileges such as
parliamentary privilege, where in order to allow you to do
your job, you are protected from defamation, so you can
(13:41):
get up into the in the house and speak freely
at the same time. It also allows you to attack
people you know quite cruelly at times. So I think
really the emphasis has to be on finding ways that
we can ensure that Parliament's, whether it's New South Wales, federal, any,
meet the expectations of a modern workplace.
S1 (14:03):
I mean, it really is amazing. I'm just. Just as
the last question, I guess. Do you and your colleagues
in the Parliament, are you just scratching your heads at
the people who are making our laws are not subjected
to the same standards of behaviour that you and I
are expected to meet in our own workplaces? I mean,
it's bizarre, right?
S2 (14:21):
Oh, absolutely. And I should just say, you know, while
Mark Latham's behaviour is probably at one end of the scale,
I do often sit in Parliament in Question Time and
I watch the schoolchildren come in for excursions, and they
watch the behaviour and the way that MPs talk to
each other. I know it's called the Bear Pit in
New South Wales because it is so confrontational and it
(14:43):
is like, you know, a blood sport. But the behavior
where we that I exhibit, I just shake my head.
And sometimes I do wonder how these MPs think it's
okay to behave like this. You know, scream across the
chamber at each other. As you know, the next generation
of young people watch on. You know, in many ways
it's almost like we've just come to accept it. You know,
(15:04):
as I said, it's called the Bear Pit. That's a
really historical name where it's all about sort of blood
sport on the floor of Parliament. That's fine, I suppose,
100 years ago. But we have moved on and people
expect different standards now. And as I keep saying, and
I know I've said it over and over, but Parliament
is also a workplace. There are other people that work there,
not just MPs. There are staffers, there are parliamentary staff
(15:26):
who have to interact with people and interact with their behaviour,
and we have to make sure it's a modern workplace.
S1 (15:34):
Well, Alex, it is such a fascinating topic. Thank you
so much for your time.
S2 (15:39):
Thanks, Sam.
S1 (15:49):
Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our head of audio.
To listen to our episodes as soon as they drop,
follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you
listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so
to support independent journalism, visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe
(16:14):
and to stay up to date, sign up to our
Morningedition newsletter to receive a summary of the day's most
important news in your inbox every morning. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. Thanks for listening.
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