September 10, 2025 • 20 mins
When we think of countries trying to show the world their power and influence, we might think of muscular shows of force, like China’s army parading its newest nuclear weapons, missiles and lasers in a military parade in Beijing, last week.
But then there was our government scrambling to out-deliver China with a tit-for-tat over, of all things, cars, for a tiny but crucial Pacific nation.
Today, international and political editor Peter Hartcher on why the region Australia long thought was least important is now the region that matters the most.
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Episode Transcript
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S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Thursday,
September 11th. When we think of countries trying to show
the world their power and influence, we might think of
muscular shows of force like China's army parading its newest
(00:23):
nuclear weapons, missiles and lasers in a military parade in
Beijing last week. But then there was our government scrambling
to out deliver China with a tit for tat over,
of all things, cars. For a tiny but crucial Pacific nation. Today,
international and political editor Peter Hartcher on why the region
(00:45):
Australia long thought was least important is now the region
that matters the most. So, Peter, I'm very excited to
have you on today because you've written about something I
hadn't really thought about before. This is competing nations trying
to woo another country to their side through gifts. Like
we know this happens, but first off, I have to
(01:06):
ask you, is this a normal thing? Like, does ASIO
have a gift giving unit where spies are like tracking
their credit card statements of Russian and Chinese agents to, like,
see who's giving, like Seiko watches or bottles of wine?
S2 (01:20):
Well, it's a secret and operates in secret, so I
can't really tell you definitively. However, I would be shocked
if they did not.
S1 (01:29):
Wow. Okay. Okay, well, let's get into it. Because there
was a battle of dueling gifts that's been taking place
behind the scenes. So who gave the Solomon Islands more cars?
Was it us or the Chinese government? And why have
we all been scrounging around to see who can give
more vehicles to this tiny Pacific nation?
S2 (01:48):
Good question. Well, so the big picture is that Australia
is competing to try and defend the status quo in
the Pacific, the Pacific Islands broadly to prevent China's intrusion
and China's ambition to build a military base on one
or as many as possible of the islands. And as
(02:08):
part of that, both the Chinese and Australian governments are
vying for influence, and they use different means to do that.
And one that just perfectly encapsulates the nature of this competition.
And bidding for the favour of Pacific countries is that
for this week's events in the Solomon Islands, tiny country,
(02:30):
fewer than a million people, but covering a large expanse
of the Pacific Ocean in a strategic location, a Chinese
friends decided that they would give 27. But as part
of a larger gift of 40, uh, a brand new
fleet of SUVs. The purpose being because Solomons is hosting
the Pacific Islands Forum this week, which is the big
(02:51):
annual political hoo-hah of the region. Right. There are 18
members in the Pacific Islands Forum, including Australia and New Zealand,
but excluding China and the US, and the Chinese desperately
want to influence control as much as possible, and the
Australians trying to keep them out said, well, if they're
going to give 27 or eventually 40 cars, we're going
(03:14):
to give 60. I think it's now up to 61
for the same purpose. Now, you know, the first thing
you'd say is, well, that is, as you say, Samantha,
a small gift. Is that really going to change a
country's calculus about alliances? Uh, I'd say two things. One
is it's a smaller part of a larger pattern, and
(03:36):
both countries are giving much more than that. Our Chinese friends,
according to politicians on the ground in the Solomons, have
been offering bags of cash to politicians in the Solomons
over the years to to woo them and to win
their country's recognition of China over Taiwan and other favors.
(03:57):
And this is a competition that Australia cannot enter. Australia
tries to avoid paying bribes and in fact we have
laws against it. So this is something that Australia can't compete,
so it has to compete in everything it can, including
giving these cars, which are this week being used to
ferry around the leaders and dignitaries who are in the Solomons,
(04:17):
in the capital of Honiara, for the Pacific Islands Forum.
S1 (04:20):
And we know this is important because I think you've
just written in the battle for influence in the Pacific
that the Solomon Islands is considered one of the Pacific
nations least simpatico with Australia. So obviously that's a real issue.
But elsewhere, just on Tuesday this week, Vanuatu knocked back
a security pact that would have given Australia a veto
over Chinese investment in the country's critical infrastructure. So what happened?
(04:43):
Because I think a lot of us saw the headlines
just last month when our defence minister, our foreign minister
and our Pacific minister traveled to Vanuatu and announced in
a lavish ceremony atop a volcano, no less, that they
had concluded negotiations for this agreement. So what happened, Peter?
S2 (05:00):
Well, the volcano must have erupted because it might have
been stable, predictable and lovely. A month ago, but but
now it's blown up. And Anthony Albanese has left. His
trip has left Vanuatu behind with no deal. The specifics
we have yet to uncover. But the big picture is clear.
(05:20):
The big picture is that the Chinese government has waged
a rearguard action to undo that arrangement, and they seem
to have succeeded. Remember that really, the Solomons was when
Australia got its first China shock under the Morrison government,
(05:41):
when we all woke up one day and discovered that
the Solomons had signed a security pact with China.
S1 (05:47):
A secret one, right? Like it was.
S2 (05:48):
Sort of all been done in secret. Yeah. The Solomons
people didn't know. Neither did anybody else. Only the Solomons
leadership and the Chinese knew about it.
S3 (05:55):
This is the worst foreign policy blunder that we've seen
in the Pacific since World War two. And despite Mr.
Morrison's tough talk on him.
S2 (06:06):
Since then, Australia's been fighting a rearguard action itself, trying
to scramble to keep as much influence as it can.
Penny Wong describes this as a permanent contest.
S4 (06:16):
You can't do anything right now about countries being bought
by China.
S3 (06:20):
I have said very publicly, Carl, we are in a
permanent contest in the Pacific. Uh.
S2 (06:27):
And if we're not, we have a Chinese takeover. And
if we do, the government's unspoken but absolutely serious aim
is to prevent China building a military base anywhere in
Australia's approaches. Uh, now it comes to Vanuatu is another
country where, uh, our Chinese friends have made serious inroads.
(06:50):
This is the second arrangement, as you said, in just
a few years now, that's fallen through an attempted arrangement
with Vanuatu. So Vanuatu and the Solomons are countries where
Australia's are really struggling to make any advances, where our
Chinese friends appear to have veto power in preventing those
governments from entering any new arrangements with Australia. So this
(07:15):
is a serious problem that Australia is is suffering right now.
And how far the Chinese are able to advance their
goals of building a military base is an open question.
Hence Penny Wong's line. Permanent contest.
S1 (07:29):
And this might be a really obvious question, but ultimately,
I mean, we know that Beijing, for a very long
time has been trying to set up a military base.
I mean, that's its goal in the Pacific. Is that
essentially to do with the battle over Taiwan? Like, is
that what that's about at the end of the day,
or is it about other things as well for China?
S2 (07:45):
This would be an advantage for for a Taiwan scenario,
but it's also an advantage. In fact, it's an essential
for China's long term aim. XI Jinping has made it
very clear that he is aiming for domination, and he
doesn't qualify that he's aiming for domination not just of
(08:07):
his periphery, not just of the Indo-Pacific, but the world.
Let's just be absolutely clear about this. He does not
qualify it when he says, and he has said from
the moment he was made the general secretary of the
Chinese Communist Party when he said, I will put China
in a position to take the initiative and to assert dominance,
(08:30):
not qualified dominance. So what's the point? Why is it
imperative to get a Chinese military base into the Pacific,
South Pacific in the event of any contingency, Taiwan contingency,
or any broader pattern of dominance? It's important that the
US not be able to operate from the Australian mainland. Now,
(08:54):
as you know, there are a lot of US interests
and bases already built. Uh, and facilities in Australia and
Australia is in the process of building a new submarine
base on the West coast, specifically for the US to
use for its long range nuclear powered submarines. And and
there are other facilities underway as well. And in the
(09:15):
event that China and the US go to war, which
is a real prospect, whether it's over Taiwan or some
other issue, the Americans want the ability to be able
to operate from Australia. So that's a critical reason that
the Chinese have military bases in Australia's northern approaches in
the South Pacific to prevent US operations from the Australian mainland.
(09:38):
And the second reason is it isolates Australia. It takes
us out of the fight. Australia cannot advance to our
north to assist in, say, war over Taiwan or anything else.
If the Chinese have got a military base in the places,
that geography hasn't changed. Samantha. Since World War two, the
Japanese Imperial Army built major bases in Papua New Guinea
(10:02):
and the Solomon Islands so that they could cut Australia
off and again deny the US the ability to operate
from Australia. It's exactly the same calculus because the geography
is the same. Yeah. And I'll just add one final thought, um,
about China's ambitions. They have there's no limit to their ambitions.
And they are building. They have built three new dual
(10:22):
use bases in Antarctica on Australian territory. Australia lays claim
to 42% of Antarctica, and the Chinese have built three
bases on Australian territory. How is.
S1 (10:34):
That possible? Peter.
S2 (10:35):
They just go ahead and do it without consulting the
Australian government, without getting permission, without resort to anything like,
you know, nice any of the niceties of diplomatic existence
just went ahead and build them.
S1 (10:48):
Okay, I'm very confused by this, Peter. I know we'll
have to discuss this another time, but I'm a bit
confused why we're buying cars to combat China's influence. But
we're not just, like, knocking down their scientific, uh, bases.
S2 (10:59):
Well, Australia had a sharp awakening. Australia was essentially anesthetized
to China's ambitions and its and its subversive activities, because
it was anesthetized by the cash that was flowing to Australia,
from exports and business to China and Chinese investments in Australia. Uh,
(11:20):
as you know, it's by far our biggest trading partner.
And that had anesthetized us. And it took, uh, it
was 2017. Um, it took the Sam Dastyari affair and
the decision by Malcolm Turnbull that it was finally time
for Australia to, uh, just do basic things like crack
down on Chinese influence peddling, uh, and other activities in
(11:41):
Australia and attempts to bribe Australian politicians.
S5 (11:45):
This is the second time Sam Dastyari has emotionally resigned
his party jobs because of his uncomfortably close ties with
Chinese donors.
S6 (11:54):
I'm not without fault.
S5 (11:55):
But the senator didn't address or deny the key allegation
that he warned billionaire donor Huang Xiangmo that his phone
was likely being tapped by intelligence agencies, preferring to answer
a question he was never asked.
S6 (12:09):
I've never passed on classified information, and I've never been
in the possession of any.
S2 (12:13):
And we are still trying to fully recover our sovereign
ability to figure out things like, well, how do we
deal with this hydra headed China plan that is seeking
to dominate us, but everywhere else as well? It's the
biggest story in the world. Donald Trump is is a
(12:33):
is a factor in that story.
S1 (12:35):
Yes.
S2 (12:35):
The biggest story in the world is China's ambition, and
its pretty healthy progress in becoming the dominant power.
S1 (12:47):
We'll be right back. Okay, well, let's get into what
Anthony Albanese is going to try to do next week,
because he's due to sign a bilateral security agreement with
another nation in the Pacific. And of course, this is
Papua New Guinea. So what is that agreement all about,
and how important might that be to our security, assuming
it comes off? Because obviously we thought that Vanuatu one
(13:08):
was going to come off. It didn't.
S2 (13:09):
So tell us nothing should be taken for granted. And
the Pacific Islands are pretty clear about that. They don't
want to be taken for granted anymore. We ignored them
to our eternal shame for decades. Uh, okay. We we,
you know, Australian governments gave a bit of aid, but
otherwise largely ignored them and thought that the Pacific was
(13:30):
the least important region in the world to us before
realizing now it's actually the most important. So that agreement
is a security agreement that the Australian government and the
Papua New Guineans have negotiated. They've yet to announce the
contents of it. I have had senior ministers in the
government say that it's extremely important that it's a very
(13:51):
big deal. We'll find out. But the Papua New Guinea
is has the biggest population of any of the South
Pacific nations. Obviously, it's very close to the Australian mainland.
It's where the Japanese set up in World War two
and were seeking to set up. So it's pivotal and
(14:12):
at the moment, gratefully, Papua New Guinea and the and
the other big South Pacific power, which is Fiji, are
well disposed to Australia and Australia's interests. So that's looking
a bit better than the than the very shaky, volcanically
interrupted Vanuatu arrangement.
S1 (14:32):
My goodness. And you mentioned there, of course, that Australia
had neglected the Pacific nations for a very long time.
We've had this wake up call and Albanese is obviously
very active in this space. He's really trying to, you know,
assert Australia's dominance or influence, I guess, there. But I
wonder whether his diplomats are equally on board, because you
wrote that Pacific Island Affairs Minister Pat Conroy has been
(14:55):
heard telling Australian diplomats to stop chasing postings in traditionally
glamorous cities because what they do in the Pacific matters most.
So I'm just wondering whether this message, this reality check,
has filtered down.
S2 (15:08):
Well, Pat Conroy is, I'm told, used the expression, um,
stop trying to get to Paris. Think about getting to
Port Moresby instead. Now, I'm sure there are plenty of
Australian diplomats who joined the service or in the service,
with ambitions to get to Paris ahead of getting to
Port Moresby. But Pat Conroy's point is you go to Paris,
you can't really influence big picture outcomes. You know, you've
(15:32):
got to do there's important stuff to be done, but
you're not going to change the course of Australia's future
in the South Pacific. You absolutely are, or you're going
to fail. Either way, it really does matter, and that
it is the cutting edge for Australia of protecting its
own sovereignty. And that's his point.
S1 (15:50):
And Peter, just to wrap up, I don't want to
end on a sort of doom and gloom moment, but
I do have to ask, really, how can we compete
for influence in the Pacific against China? Because I'm just
thinking brass tacks. China's economy is way bigger than ours.
Even though it's been slowing, I think it might be
the second largest economy in the world. We're about the 14th,
I think. So tell us about this, because we did
(16:13):
provide more cars to the Solomons, as I understand it.
S2 (16:17):
Well, Australia has a number of pretty solid advantages. It's
long been the biggest aid supplier to the region. You're right.
The Australian economy is a bit under 2 trillion USD
a year, which makes it a lot smaller. It's the
same size as the Russian economy, by the way. And
if you look at Russia, you can see that if
(16:38):
a country puts enough effort into its military and security.
It can actually throw its weight a pretty long way.
So Australia's not an absolutely hopeless tiddler here. Australia's in
a strong position, right? Also, a really important point here
is that the Chinese system is very good at so-called
(16:58):
elite capture. That is capturing the leadership group of a
country through, you know, friendship, lots of lavish travel gifts
where it can get away with it, as we know
it has been doing successfully in the South Pacific. Bags
of cash for politicians. It's less successful. Capturing the hearts
(17:20):
and minds of the people, the the citizens and the
voters in these countries. So culturally, for example, almost all
of them, English is the second language, in some cases
the first. Uh, we also know that they are democratic
Nations that they are mainly Christian countries. They play either
(17:45):
NRL or AFL and they're the primary sports, which is
really important. So the churches, the sport, the democracy and
the historical ties and, um, the history of Australian, uh,
engagement and investment is a big asset. And that's why
China is making such a big effort to try and
(18:06):
overturn that traditional advantage. Now, can Australia do more? Is
there more to be done? Yes it can. And what's
been happening is the Australian government has been trying to
do these bilateral deals, you know, hub from the hub
to through the spoke to various Pacific countries to, uh,
stitch them into the Australian system. The most recent successful
(18:27):
large one was, well, a large deal with a small country, Tuvalu, um,
which was a very successful deal and it gives them
this is fascinating. It gives them the right over time
for all of their population to relocate to Australia. They
are a country that's already starting to disappear under the
Pacific Ocean because of climate change and rising tides and
(18:49):
storm swells. It's only tens or hundreds of people a
year can move to Australia, but over over 30 years,
their entire population under this deal could relocate if necessary.
They call it a dignified relocation. Is is what the
Tuvaluans and other Pacific countries call it. So Australia literally
offers them a lifeline and an alternative place to settle,
(19:13):
to bring them, bring up their families, the whole thing.
We're talking about the migration of an entire country if
it needs to, in return for which Australia gets a
veto power over Tuvalu's ability or freedom to make security
agreements with other countries. In other words, China. So Australia
is is really playing this game as hard as it can.
S1 (19:33):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time.
S2 (19:35):
Always a pleasure to meet you.
S1 (19:46):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to
(20:06):
support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe
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and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
(20:27):
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Salinger Morris. It's Thursday,
September 11th. When we think of countries trying to show
the world their power and influence, we might think of
muscular shows of force like China's army parading its newest
(00:23):
nuclear weapons, missiles and lasers in a military parade in
Beijing last week. But then there was our government scrambling
to out deliver China with a tit for tat over,
of all things, cars. For a tiny but crucial Pacific nation. Today,
international and political editor Peter Hartcher on why the region
(00:45):
Australia long thought was least important is now the region
that matters the most. So, Peter, I'm very excited to
have you on today because you've written about something I
hadn't really thought about before. This is competing nations trying
to woo another country to their side through gifts. Like
we know this happens, but first off, I have to
(01:06):
ask you, is this a normal thing? Like, does ASIO
have a gift giving unit where spies are like tracking
their credit card statements of Russian and Chinese agents to, like,
see who's giving, like Seiko watches or bottles of wine?
S2 (01:20):
Well, it's a secret and operates in secret, so I
can't really tell you definitively. However, I would be shocked
if they did not.
S1 (01:29):
Wow. Okay. Okay, well, let's get into it. Because there
was a battle of dueling gifts that's been taking place
behind the scenes. So who gave the Solomon Islands more cars?
Was it us or the Chinese government? And why have
we all been scrounging around to see who can give
more vehicles to this tiny Pacific nation?
S2 (01:48):
Good question. Well, so the big picture is that Australia
is competing to try and defend the status quo in
the Pacific, the Pacific Islands broadly to prevent China's intrusion
and China's ambition to build a military base on one
or as many as possible of the islands. And as
(02:08):
part of that, both the Chinese and Australian governments are
vying for influence, and they use different means to do that.
And one that just perfectly encapsulates the nature of this competition.
And bidding for the favour of Pacific countries is that
for this week's events in the Solomon Islands, tiny country,
(02:30):
fewer than a million people, but covering a large expanse
of the Pacific Ocean in a strategic location, a Chinese
friends decided that they would give 27. But as part
of a larger gift of 40, uh, a brand new
fleet of SUVs. The purpose being because Solomons is hosting
the Pacific Islands Forum this week, which is the big
(02:51):
annual political hoo-hah of the region. Right. There are 18
members in the Pacific Islands Forum, including Australia and New Zealand,
but excluding China and the US, and the Chinese desperately
want to influence control as much as possible, and the
Australians trying to keep them out said, well, if they're
going to give 27 or eventually 40 cars, we're going
(03:14):
to give 60. I think it's now up to 61
for the same purpose. Now, you know, the first thing
you'd say is, well, that is, as you say, Samantha,
a small gift. Is that really going to change a
country's calculus about alliances? Uh, I'd say two things. One
is it's a smaller part of a larger pattern, and
(03:36):
both countries are giving much more than that. Our Chinese friends,
according to politicians on the ground in the Solomons, have
been offering bags of cash to politicians in the Solomons
over the years to to woo them and to win
their country's recognition of China over Taiwan and other favors.
(03:57):
And this is a competition that Australia cannot enter. Australia
tries to avoid paying bribes and in fact we have
laws against it. So this is something that Australia can't compete,
so it has to compete in everything it can, including
giving these cars, which are this week being used to
ferry around the leaders and dignitaries who are in the Solomons,
(04:17):
in the capital of Honiara, for the Pacific Islands Forum.
S1 (04:20):
And we know this is important because I think you've
just written in the battle for influence in the Pacific
that the Solomon Islands is considered one of the Pacific
nations least simpatico with Australia. So obviously that's a real issue.
But elsewhere, just on Tuesday this week, Vanuatu knocked back
a security pact that would have given Australia a veto
over Chinese investment in the country's critical infrastructure. So what happened?
(04:43):
Because I think a lot of us saw the headlines
just last month when our defence minister, our foreign minister
and our Pacific minister traveled to Vanuatu and announced in
a lavish ceremony atop a volcano, no less, that they
had concluded negotiations for this agreement. So what happened, Peter?
S2 (05:00):
Well, the volcano must have erupted because it might have
been stable, predictable and lovely. A month ago, but but
now it's blown up. And Anthony Albanese has left. His
trip has left Vanuatu behind with no deal. The specifics
we have yet to uncover. But the big picture is clear.
(05:20):
The big picture is that the Chinese government has waged
a rearguard action to undo that arrangement, and they seem
to have succeeded. Remember that really, the Solomons was when
Australia got its first China shock under the Morrison government,
(05:41):
when we all woke up one day and discovered that
the Solomons had signed a security pact with China.
S1 (05:47):
A secret one, right? Like it was.
S2 (05:48):
Sort of all been done in secret. Yeah. The Solomons
people didn't know. Neither did anybody else. Only the Solomons
leadership and the Chinese knew about it.
S3 (05:55):
This is the worst foreign policy blunder that we've seen
in the Pacific since World War two. And despite Mr.
Morrison's tough talk on him.
S2 (06:06):
Since then, Australia's been fighting a rearguard action itself, trying
to scramble to keep as much influence as it can.
Penny Wong describes this as a permanent contest.
S4 (06:16):
You can't do anything right now about countries being bought
by China.
S3 (06:20):
I have said very publicly, Carl, we are in a
permanent contest in the Pacific. Uh.
S2 (06:27):
And if we're not, we have a Chinese takeover. And
if we do, the government's unspoken but absolutely serious aim
is to prevent China building a military base anywhere in
Australia's approaches. Uh, now it comes to Vanuatu is another
country where, uh, our Chinese friends have made serious inroads.
(06:50):
This is the second arrangement, as you said, in just
a few years now, that's fallen through an attempted arrangement
with Vanuatu. So Vanuatu and the Solomons are countries where
Australia's are really struggling to make any advances, where our
Chinese friends appear to have veto power in preventing those
governments from entering any new arrangements with Australia. So this
(07:15):
is a serious problem that Australia is is suffering right now.
And how far the Chinese are able to advance their
goals of building a military base is an open question.
Hence Penny Wong's line. Permanent contest.
S1 (07:29):
And this might be a really obvious question, but ultimately,
I mean, we know that Beijing, for a very long
time has been trying to set up a military base.
I mean, that's its goal in the Pacific. Is that
essentially to do with the battle over Taiwan? Like, is
that what that's about at the end of the day,
or is it about other things as well for China?
S2 (07:45):
This would be an advantage for for a Taiwan scenario,
but it's also an advantage. In fact, it's an essential
for China's long term aim. XI Jinping has made it
very clear that he is aiming for domination, and he
doesn't qualify that he's aiming for domination not just of
(08:07):
his periphery, not just of the Indo-Pacific, but the world.
Let's just be absolutely clear about this. He does not
qualify it when he says, and he has said from
the moment he was made the general secretary of the
Chinese Communist Party when he said, I will put China
in a position to take the initiative and to assert dominance,
(08:30):
not qualified dominance. So what's the point? Why is it
imperative to get a Chinese military base into the Pacific,
South Pacific in the event of any contingency, Taiwan contingency,
or any broader pattern of dominance? It's important that the
US not be able to operate from the Australian mainland. Now,
(08:54):
as you know, there are a lot of US interests
and bases already built. Uh, and facilities in Australia and
Australia is in the process of building a new submarine
base on the West coast, specifically for the US to
use for its long range nuclear powered submarines. And and
there are other facilities underway as well. And in the
(09:15):
event that China and the US go to war, which
is a real prospect, whether it's over Taiwan or some
other issue, the Americans want the ability to be able
to operate from Australia. So that's a critical reason that
the Chinese have military bases in Australia's northern approaches in
the South Pacific to prevent US operations from the Australian mainland.
(09:38):
And the second reason is it isolates Australia. It takes
us out of the fight. Australia cannot advance to our
north to assist in, say, war over Taiwan or anything else.
If the Chinese have got a military base in the places,
that geography hasn't changed. Samantha. Since World War two, the
Japanese Imperial Army built major bases in Papua New Guinea
(10:02):
and the Solomon Islands so that they could cut Australia
off and again deny the US the ability to operate
from Australia. It's exactly the same calculus because the geography
is the same. Yeah. And I'll just add one final thought, um,
about China's ambitions. They have there's no limit to their ambitions.
And they are building. They have built three new dual
(10:22):
use bases in Antarctica on Australian territory. Australia lays claim
to 42% of Antarctica, and the Chinese have built three
bases on Australian territory. How is.
S1 (10:34):
That possible? Peter.
S2 (10:35):
They just go ahead and do it without consulting the
Australian government, without getting permission, without resort to anything like,
you know, nice any of the niceties of diplomatic existence
just went ahead and build them.
S1 (10:48):
Okay, I'm very confused by this, Peter. I know we'll
have to discuss this another time, but I'm a bit
confused why we're buying cars to combat China's influence. But
we're not just, like, knocking down their scientific, uh, bases.
S2 (10:59):
Well, Australia had a sharp awakening. Australia was essentially anesthetized
to China's ambitions and its and its subversive activities, because
it was anesthetized by the cash that was flowing to Australia,
from exports and business to China and Chinese investments in Australia. Uh,
(11:20):
as you know, it's by far our biggest trading partner.
And that had anesthetized us. And it took, uh, it
was 2017. Um, it took the Sam Dastyari affair and
the decision by Malcolm Turnbull that it was finally time
for Australia to, uh, just do basic things like crack
down on Chinese influence peddling, uh, and other activities in
(11:41):
Australia and attempts to bribe Australian politicians.
S5 (11:45):
This is the second time Sam Dastyari has emotionally resigned
his party jobs because of his uncomfortably close ties with
Chinese donors.
S6 (11:54):
I'm not without fault.
S5 (11:55):
But the senator didn't address or deny the key allegation
that he warned billionaire donor Huang Xiangmo that his phone
was likely being tapped by intelligence agencies, preferring to answer
a question he was never asked.
S6 (12:09):
I've never passed on classified information, and I've never been
in the possession of any.
S2 (12:13):
And we are still trying to fully recover our sovereign
ability to figure out things like, well, how do we
deal with this hydra headed China plan that is seeking
to dominate us, but everywhere else as well? It's the
biggest story in the world. Donald Trump is is a
(12:33):
is a factor in that story.
S1 (12:35):
Yes.
S2 (12:35):
The biggest story in the world is China's ambition, and
its pretty healthy progress in becoming the dominant power.
S1 (12:47):
We'll be right back. Okay, well, let's get into what
Anthony Albanese is going to try to do next week,
because he's due to sign a bilateral security agreement with
another nation in the Pacific. And of course, this is
Papua New Guinea. So what is that agreement all about,
and how important might that be to our security, assuming
it comes off? Because obviously we thought that Vanuatu one
(13:08):
was going to come off. It didn't.
S2 (13:09):
So tell us nothing should be taken for granted. And
the Pacific Islands are pretty clear about that. They don't
want to be taken for granted anymore. We ignored them
to our eternal shame for decades. Uh, okay. We we,
you know, Australian governments gave a bit of aid, but
otherwise largely ignored them and thought that the Pacific was
(13:30):
the least important region in the world to us before
realizing now it's actually the most important. So that agreement
is a security agreement that the Australian government and the
Papua New Guineans have negotiated. They've yet to announce the
contents of it. I have had senior ministers in the
government say that it's extremely important that it's a very
(13:51):
big deal. We'll find out. But the Papua New Guinea
is has the biggest population of any of the South
Pacific nations. Obviously, it's very close to the Australian mainland.
It's where the Japanese set up in World War two
and were seeking to set up. So it's pivotal and
(14:12):
at the moment, gratefully, Papua New Guinea and the and
the other big South Pacific power, which is Fiji, are
well disposed to Australia and Australia's interests. So that's looking
a bit better than the than the very shaky, volcanically
interrupted Vanuatu arrangement.
S1 (14:32):
My goodness. And you mentioned there, of course, that Australia
had neglected the Pacific nations for a very long time.
We've had this wake up call and Albanese is obviously
very active in this space. He's really trying to, you know,
assert Australia's dominance or influence, I guess, there. But I
wonder whether his diplomats are equally on board, because you
wrote that Pacific Island Affairs Minister Pat Conroy has been
(14:55):
heard telling Australian diplomats to stop chasing postings in traditionally
glamorous cities because what they do in the Pacific matters most.
So I'm just wondering whether this message, this reality check,
has filtered down.
S2 (15:08):
Well, Pat Conroy is, I'm told, used the expression, um,
stop trying to get to Paris. Think about getting to
Port Moresby instead. Now, I'm sure there are plenty of
Australian diplomats who joined the service or in the service,
with ambitions to get to Paris ahead of getting to
Port Moresby. But Pat Conroy's point is you go to Paris,
you can't really influence big picture outcomes. You know, you've
(15:32):
got to do there's important stuff to be done, but
you're not going to change the course of Australia's future
in the South Pacific. You absolutely are, or you're going
to fail. Either way, it really does matter, and that
it is the cutting edge for Australia of protecting its
own sovereignty. And that's his point.
S1 (15:50):
And Peter, just to wrap up, I don't want to
end on a sort of doom and gloom moment, but
I do have to ask, really, how can we compete
for influence in the Pacific against China? Because I'm just
thinking brass tacks. China's economy is way bigger than ours.
Even though it's been slowing, I think it might be
the second largest economy in the world. We're about the 14th,
I think. So tell us about this, because we did
(16:13):
provide more cars to the Solomons, as I understand it.
S2 (16:17):
Well, Australia has a number of pretty solid advantages. It's
long been the biggest aid supplier to the region. You're right.
The Australian economy is a bit under 2 trillion USD
a year, which makes it a lot smaller. It's the
same size as the Russian economy, by the way. And
if you look at Russia, you can see that if
(16:38):
a country puts enough effort into its military and security.
It can actually throw its weight a pretty long way.
So Australia's not an absolutely hopeless tiddler here. Australia's in
a strong position, right? Also, a really important point here
is that the Chinese system is very good at so-called
(16:58):
elite capture. That is capturing the leadership group of a
country through, you know, friendship, lots of lavish travel gifts
where it can get away with it, as we know
it has been doing successfully in the South Pacific. Bags
of cash for politicians. It's less successful. Capturing the hearts
(17:20):
and minds of the people, the the citizens and the
voters in these countries. So culturally, for example, almost all
of them, English is the second language, in some cases
the first. Uh, we also know that they are democratic
Nations that they are mainly Christian countries. They play either
(17:45):
NRL or AFL and they're the primary sports, which is
really important. So the churches, the sport, the democracy and
the historical ties and, um, the history of Australian, uh,
engagement and investment is a big asset. And that's why
China is making such a big effort to try and
(18:06):
overturn that traditional advantage. Now, can Australia do more? Is
there more to be done? Yes it can. And what's
been happening is the Australian government has been trying to
do these bilateral deals, you know, hub from the hub
to through the spoke to various Pacific countries to, uh,
stitch them into the Australian system. The most recent successful
(18:27):
large one was, well, a large deal with a small country, Tuvalu, um,
which was a very successful deal and it gives them
this is fascinating. It gives them the right over time
for all of their population to relocate to Australia. They
are a country that's already starting to disappear under the
Pacific Ocean because of climate change and rising tides and
(18:49):
storm swells. It's only tens or hundreds of people a
year can move to Australia, but over over 30 years,
their entire population under this deal could relocate if necessary.
They call it a dignified relocation. Is is what the
Tuvaluans and other Pacific countries call it. So Australia literally
offers them a lifeline and an alternative place to settle,
(19:13):
to bring them, bring up their families, the whole thing.
We're talking about the migration of an entire country if
it needs to, in return for which Australia gets a
veto power over Tuvalu's ability or freedom to make security
agreements with other countries. In other words, China. So Australia
is is really playing this game as hard as it can.
S1 (19:33):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time.
S2 (19:35):
Always a pleasure to meet you.
S1 (19:46):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to
(20:06):
support what we do. Search The Age or Smh.com.au. Subscribe
and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive
a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis
and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
(20:27):
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
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