July 13, 2025 • 14 mins
We know that air flight is - for the most part - extraordinarily safe. On any given day, about 100,000 flights take off and land, safely, across the globe.
The air tragedies that do make the front page news, like Malaysia Airlines’ MH17 flight, which was shot down by a Russian-made missile in 2014, are exceedingly rare.
But unbeknownst to most of us, many pilots experience difficulties with their GPS signals. And, these difficulties are reportedly increasing.
Today, senior reporter Chris Zappone, on this persistent, but relatively under-reported problem that pilots face so regularly. And how much of a threat it is to our safety.
You can find Chris' story on The Age and Sydney Morning Herald websites here: https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/how-a-confusing-cockpit-snippet-invited-doubt-over-the-air-india-crash-investigation-20250713-p5mejl.html
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday,
July 14th. We know that air flight is, for the
most part, extraordinarily safe. On any given day, about 100,000
flights take off and land safely across the globe. The
(00:25):
air tragedies that do make the front page news, like
Malaysia Airlines mH17 flight, which was shot down by a
Russian made missile in 2014, are exceedingly rare. But unbeknownst
to most of us, many pilots experience difficulties with their
GPS signals and these difficulties are reportedly increasing. Today, senior
(00:48):
reporter Chris Zappone on this persistent but relatively underreported problem
that pilots face so regularly. Many have begun to ignore
false data they receive and how much of a threat
it is to our safety. Okay, so Chris, I've got
to be honest, before reading your latest report, I thought
(01:09):
that as a bare minimum, any pilot who's flying a
plane that I'm in will know where they're going. Right.
But it turns out that it's actually not always the
case because they might have a faulty GPS system. So
you have got to tell me what you've discovered. What's
going on here?
S2 (01:23):
Okay. So what's happening is that the GPS system. So
that's the same system that we rely on to order
our Ubers and to find out where our iPhones are.
It's the same system that pilots use to navigate on flights.
There's a number of different ways that pilots can navigate,
but by far the most common and the most popular
system is GPS. And increasingly in certain parts of the world,
(01:46):
it's becoming contested and it's becoming less reliable. So that
means that the signal that informs their planes of where
they are is being either jammed or in some cases spoofed,
so that that's where the signal is sent, telling the
plane that it's at a place that it's not. The
past few weeks, we've seen this event where the airspace
(02:08):
in Qatar was shut down very dramatically when these Iranian
missiles were were inbound for this base there that scattered
their air traffic to all these different airports where it
had to land. And it gave you a sense of
how fragile this system is and how easy it is
to disturb.
S3 (02:25):
Some airlines have started canceling flights to the Persian Gulf
after the US attacks on Iran, where a flight from
the West Australian capital to Paris has been forced to
turn around due to the turmoil.
S4 (02:35):
Qatar Airways, confirming the suspension of all of its flights
that will impact hundreds, if not thousands of Australians over
the next couple of days that are trying to use
Qatar Airways to get to Europe or to the Middle East.
S2 (02:47):
Now, although this is happening, it's not happening everywhere, and
it's also not something that is so grave a danger
that planes are, you know, falling out of the sky.
S1 (02:58):
Okay, well, that's that's some sort of a small hope,
I guess. But tell us. So you've mentioned there jamming
and spoofing. These are two, I think, of the main
reasons that pilots might lose navigation signals or their GPS.
So what is jamming exactly and what is spoofing.
S2 (03:14):
Okay, so so jamming is where the signal does not
come through to the plane. So the plane can't get
an accurate read. And I should be clear. So the
GPS system works on three, four, five, six and even
more points of reference. So these are the satellite signals
that are that are used to triangulate the place of
the plane. But as these signals become disrupted, it's harder
(03:36):
for the the GPS system within the plane to know
exactly where it's at. Um, spoofing is something a bit
more exotic, and that happens in combat zones. And that
is where you can actually, uh, use a false signal,
a false GPS signal, to tell the GPS receiver that
it's at a place that it's not so. I've seen
(03:57):
maps showing where a plane, you know, it looks like
it's approaching the the airport in Tel Aviv, but the
signal is showing that it's actually in Lebanon. The other
thing is instrument displays that are indicating non-existent terrain. So
somebody up in the air, they know, you know, they're they're,
you know, out over the, you know, an ocean somewhere.
And it's suddenly saying that, oh, actually there's a landmass
(04:18):
there that doesn't exist. In fact, some pilots report that
they are getting automatic alerts to to an emergency pull
up when they know that they're at 30,000ft in the air.
There's nothing no terrain in the area at all. But
the the spoofing can tell them that they're actually very
near terrain. So, I mean, this is the sort of
thing that they're dealing with.
S1 (04:38):
Okay. So we're going to get into where this is
more common in a little bit. But just tell us
what happens when a pilot's GPS system is jammed or spoofed.
Like what sort of risks does this bring to a
pilot who is wanting to fly to their destination safely?
S2 (04:52):
From what I understand, and a lot of cases, it's
it's not so much an experience of higher risk as
it's an annoyance. It's a piece of equipment that's not working.
So what happens is that they suddenly get a number
that they can't trust, and they know because they know
where they are based on other readings. They understand that
something's that a number is off. So an example that
(05:13):
I was given is that one system that's usually just
no more than one mile off. It's down to like
one nautical mile of accuracy. Suddenly it's showing a distance
of 30 miles difference. And so that is enough to
raise the eyebrow of the pilot and to say that
there's something wrong here, and then it just creates more
need to double check. So they have to go to
secondary systems to check to make sure that they're where
(05:36):
they need to be for their flight. And I should say,
I mean, for anybody listening to this, it's not that
they're up in the air and suddenly they have no
idea where they are. They know where they are because
they have multiple ways of determining. It's just that the
most popular system that people use, it is by far
the most prolific and it's the most widely adopted, is
the one that is increasingly becoming contested in particular zones
(06:00):
in the world.
S1 (06:01):
Okay. And you mentioned their worst case scenario. So tell
us like what is the worst case scenario that that
we've seen.
S2 (06:06):
So one example that comes to mind is a plane.
And this happened last year, which was a plane that
Azerbaijani airline was flying to Grozny. So that's in the
Russian republic of Chechnya. It was flying in with cloud cover.
It was in an area that was being jammed. Right.
GPS jamming. And this is because it overlaps with the
(06:28):
conflict going on between Russia and Ukraine. The Russians that
were defending their base from Ukrainian drones in Grozny were
jamming the GPS. When this airline was flying in the clouds,
it couldn't get its bearings of where it needed to go.
And at a certain point it because it couldn't get
a visual sight of where it was going. It was
(06:50):
up in the clouds And, you know, it was uncertain
of where it was. It found itself being shot at
by a Russian anti-aircraft crew in Grozny.
S5 (06:59):
38 people were killed when the Azerbaijan Airlines plane crashed
in the city of Aktau.
S6 (07:04):
Azerbaijan's President Ilham Aliyev has accused Russia of mistakenly firing
at an Azerbaijan Airlines passenger jet before it crashed.
S7 (07:14):
Russian air defences were responsible. They are trying to repel
drones from Ukraine, as the war does go on, and
one of those.
S2 (07:21):
That made it impossible for them to land safely. If
they had GPS, they would have known more directly where
they were. Instead, they were in a very extreme situation,
and then they didn't have the reliable navigation that they
that they would be able to count on if they
had access to their GPS. So that's a very extreme situation.
And we should be clear, this is something happening in
a in a war zone.
S1 (07:41):
And one retired air captain told you that jamming and
spoofing are I mean, they're occurring with greater frequency. So
why is this is it because there's just more conflicts
in the world like you've been speaking about. Or is
it something else?
S2 (07:53):
Yeah. I mean, there are more zones that are conflict zones.
There's just more of them. So a lot through the
eastern Mediterranean, so around Israel, around the Middle East, a lot.
One of the peak areas was around the border between
Iran and Iraq. So these are all areas that have
been contested where there's military operations going, going on around
(08:14):
the Black Sea as well, obviously around Ukraine, around Russia,
and very intensely around the Baltics. There, pilots are constantly
being jammed as they fly into their airports. And this
is all part of this sort of regime of harassment
and contesting this airspace and making it difficult for the
for the pilots in the area. So that's happening. It's
(08:36):
also that this technology for this sort of activity of
jamming and spoofing is less expensive. It's more widely distributed.
There's more. Also, I think the drift of warfare itself
that relies more on drones and on missiles. These are
things that rely on GPS. So if they can be
defended against through spoofing and jamming, then that's going to
(08:58):
be done. So we're seeing this all sort of come
together at the same time. So the the International Air
Transport Association and the European Airspace Regulator had put out
a note a couple of weeks ago saying that the
incidence of, of this sort of activity has gone up
over 200% in the past couple of years. So this
(09:18):
is a much more sort of common activity that pilots
are learning to have to just deal with.
S1 (09:26):
We'll be right back. And I think there's actually some
history though, isn't there? Besides that one incident of planes
being shot down once they've drifted unintentionally into dangerous or
military areas. Right. If they've deviated from their cleared routes.
So that's another worst case scenario, I think, isn't it,
with regards to a pilot might know. You know pretty
(09:48):
well where they are, but maybe not precisely. And therefore
they sort of deviate into a dangerous area.
S2 (09:53):
Well that's right. Actually, the civilian adoption of GPS actually
goes back to one of these incidences. So this was
back in 1983. A Korean airliner was passing through airspace,
and this was before they had access to satellite signals
to understand where they were. It was passing through airspace
on its way to Korea. And it was it veered
off course and it went over Russian or then Soviet airspace.
(10:19):
Soviet planes were scrambled and in a sort of a
somewhat confused situation, they identified the plane, they shot it down,
and hundreds of people died. And after that, the the
regulators realized that if this plane had access to better
information about where it was, they could have possibly prevented
(10:39):
this shootdown. So, you know, now we're in a new
situation where GPS is used everywhere, but now the means
to disrupt it are becoming more and more commonplace, and
there are more and more a feature of the battle
space that is increasingly moving into the realm of things
like electronic warfare, drones, more missiles. And this is having
(11:00):
a spillover effect into commercial aviation.
S1 (11:03):
And, Chris, I've got to ask you this. How did
you even come across this story? You know, because I'd
never heard about this problem before. I imagine that's the
same with a lot of listeners. So how did you
stumble across it?
S2 (11:13):
Well, I mean, it's something that I was aware of
sort of in the in the corner of my eye.
But as I look more towards the aviation community, you
can see that it's a bigger issue. There is the
issue that over time, if the global commons of GPS
starts to become so contested that it can no longer
be relied on, that will be an issue for global aviation.
So there are organizations that are moving to address this. IATA.
(11:37):
So that's one organization I mentioned, along with the European
Union Aviation Safety Agency have issued a list of proposed solutions.
So some of them are sort of common sense. Standardizing
radio calls about this sort of thing so that that
doesn't exist yet. Establishing monitoring and warning practices. Also facilitating
(11:58):
information sharing. So these are all sort of common sense
things that should be in place. They also want to
add you know, they advocate putting restrictions on jamming devices.
It's not clear how effective that would be given that
some governments and some militias are, are going to use
these and they're not going to be dissuaded. So there
is this awareness. The issue is, as you know, we
rely on aviation. We rely on the system to work
(12:22):
perfectly sort of day after day. And so there's never
a moment where you can just turn things off and
sort of reboot it with a with an upgrade. This
has to be integrated into the system as the system
stays alive, as the system continues to function.
S1 (12:36):
And Chris, just to wrap up, I really appreciate how
you've reported on this without sensationalizing it. You know, you're
not trying to scare people and you're really putting it
in context. You know that by and large, at least
from your reporting, it would certainly suggest that flying is
still safe. But knowing what you do now, are you
still happy to fly? You know? Do you think? Do
you still feel safe?
S2 (12:54):
I do, I do because, you know, this is an
industry that is built on safety. Pilots are professionals. The
safety in the aviation system is built on multiple redundancies.
So if one system fails, there's a backup system, and
then there's another backup system and another one on that.
As one pilot said to me, you know, of all
(13:15):
the concerns of a pilot, this is not possibly the highest. Right.
So the higher concerns would be things like a fire
on board the plane or, you know, if there was
an emergency aboard the plane, a sick patient or something
like that. So these these pilots are prepared for this.
The industry is alert to oncoming and rising challenges and
(13:37):
and difficulties, and this is one of them. So this
is part of the process I think is just being
aware of this. And this is something that the airlines
and the regulators are dealing with.
S1 (13:46):
Well, thank you so much, Chris, for your time.
S2 (13:49):
Oh thank you Sam.
S1 (13:57):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
(14:19):
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morningedition newsletter to receive a summary of
the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Cylinder Morris. It's Monday,
July 14th. We know that air flight is, for the
most part, extraordinarily safe. On any given day, about 100,000
flights take off and land safely across the globe. The
(00:25):
air tragedies that do make the front page news, like
Malaysia Airlines mH17 flight, which was shot down by a
Russian made missile in 2014, are exceedingly rare. But unbeknownst
to most of us, many pilots experience difficulties with their
GPS signals and these difficulties are reportedly increasing. Today, senior
(00:48):
reporter Chris Zappone on this persistent but relatively underreported problem
that pilots face so regularly. Many have begun to ignore
false data they receive and how much of a threat
it is to our safety. Okay, so Chris, I've got
to be honest, before reading your latest report, I thought
(01:09):
that as a bare minimum, any pilot who's flying a
plane that I'm in will know where they're going. Right.
But it turns out that it's actually not always the
case because they might have a faulty GPS system. So
you have got to tell me what you've discovered. What's
going on here?
S2 (01:23):
Okay. So what's happening is that the GPS system. So
that's the same system that we rely on to order
our Ubers and to find out where our iPhones are.
It's the same system that pilots use to navigate on flights.
There's a number of different ways that pilots can navigate,
but by far the most common and the most popular
system is GPS. And increasingly in certain parts of the world,
(01:46):
it's becoming contested and it's becoming less reliable. So that
means that the signal that informs their planes of where
they are is being either jammed or in some cases spoofed,
so that that's where the signal is sent, telling the
plane that it's at a place that it's not. The
past few weeks, we've seen this event where the airspace
(02:08):
in Qatar was shut down very dramatically when these Iranian
missiles were were inbound for this base there that scattered
their air traffic to all these different airports where it
had to land. And it gave you a sense of
how fragile this system is and how easy it is
to disturb.
S3 (02:25):
Some airlines have started canceling flights to the Persian Gulf
after the US attacks on Iran, where a flight from
the West Australian capital to Paris has been forced to
turn around due to the turmoil.
S4 (02:35):
Qatar Airways, confirming the suspension of all of its flights
that will impact hundreds, if not thousands of Australians over
the next couple of days that are trying to use
Qatar Airways to get to Europe or to the Middle East.
S2 (02:47):
Now, although this is happening, it's not happening everywhere, and
it's also not something that is so grave a danger
that planes are, you know, falling out of the sky.
S1 (02:58):
Okay, well, that's that's some sort of a small hope,
I guess. But tell us. So you've mentioned there jamming
and spoofing. These are two, I think, of the main
reasons that pilots might lose navigation signals or their GPS.
So what is jamming exactly and what is spoofing.
S2 (03:14):
Okay, so so jamming is where the signal does not
come through to the plane. So the plane can't get
an accurate read. And I should be clear. So the
GPS system works on three, four, five, six and even
more points of reference. So these are the satellite signals
that are that are used to triangulate the place of
the plane. But as these signals become disrupted, it's harder
(03:36):
for the the GPS system within the plane to know
exactly where it's at. Um, spoofing is something a bit
more exotic, and that happens in combat zones. And that
is where you can actually, uh, use a false signal,
a false GPS signal, to tell the GPS receiver that
it's at a place that it's not so. I've seen
(03:57):
maps showing where a plane, you know, it looks like
it's approaching the the airport in Tel Aviv, but the
signal is showing that it's actually in Lebanon. The other
thing is instrument displays that are indicating non-existent terrain. So
somebody up in the air, they know, you know, they're they're,
you know, out over the, you know, an ocean somewhere.
And it's suddenly saying that, oh, actually there's a landmass
(04:18):
there that doesn't exist. In fact, some pilots report that
they are getting automatic alerts to to an emergency pull
up when they know that they're at 30,000ft in the air.
There's nothing no terrain in the area at all. But
the the spoofing can tell them that they're actually very
near terrain. So, I mean, this is the sort of
thing that they're dealing with.
S1 (04:38):
Okay. So we're going to get into where this is
more common in a little bit. But just tell us
what happens when a pilot's GPS system is jammed or spoofed.
Like what sort of risks does this bring to a
pilot who is wanting to fly to their destination safely?
S2 (04:52):
From what I understand, and a lot of cases, it's
it's not so much an experience of higher risk as
it's an annoyance. It's a piece of equipment that's not working.
So what happens is that they suddenly get a number
that they can't trust, and they know because they know
where they are based on other readings. They understand that
something's that a number is off. So an example that
(05:13):
I was given is that one system that's usually just
no more than one mile off. It's down to like
one nautical mile of accuracy. Suddenly it's showing a distance
of 30 miles difference. And so that is enough to
raise the eyebrow of the pilot and to say that
there's something wrong here, and then it just creates more
need to double check. So they have to go to
secondary systems to check to make sure that they're where
(05:36):
they need to be for their flight. And I should say,
I mean, for anybody listening to this, it's not that
they're up in the air and suddenly they have no
idea where they are. They know where they are because
they have multiple ways of determining. It's just that the
most popular system that people use, it is by far
the most prolific and it's the most widely adopted, is
the one that is increasingly becoming contested in particular zones
(06:00):
in the world.
S1 (06:01):
Okay. And you mentioned their worst case scenario. So tell
us like what is the worst case scenario that that
we've seen.
S2 (06:06):
So one example that comes to mind is a plane.
And this happened last year, which was a plane that
Azerbaijani airline was flying to Grozny. So that's in the
Russian republic of Chechnya. It was flying in with cloud cover.
It was in an area that was being jammed. Right.
GPS jamming. And this is because it overlaps with the
(06:28):
conflict going on between Russia and Ukraine. The Russians that
were defending their base from Ukrainian drones in Grozny were
jamming the GPS. When this airline was flying in the clouds,
it couldn't get its bearings of where it needed to go.
And at a certain point it because it couldn't get
a visual sight of where it was going. It was
(06:50):
up in the clouds And, you know, it was uncertain
of where it was. It found itself being shot at
by a Russian anti-aircraft crew in Grozny.
S5 (06:59):
38 people were killed when the Azerbaijan Airlines plane crashed
in the city of Aktau.
S6 (07:04):
Azerbaijan's President Ilham Aliyev has accused Russia of mistakenly firing
at an Azerbaijan Airlines passenger jet before it crashed.
S7 (07:14):
Russian air defences were responsible. They are trying to repel
drones from Ukraine, as the war does go on, and
one of those.
S2 (07:21):
That made it impossible for them to land safely. If
they had GPS, they would have known more directly where
they were. Instead, they were in a very extreme situation,
and then they didn't have the reliable navigation that they
that they would be able to count on if they
had access to their GPS. So that's a very extreme situation.
And we should be clear, this is something happening in
a in a war zone.
S1 (07:41):
And one retired air captain told you that jamming and
spoofing are I mean, they're occurring with greater frequency. So
why is this is it because there's just more conflicts
in the world like you've been speaking about. Or is
it something else?
S2 (07:53):
Yeah. I mean, there are more zones that are conflict zones.
There's just more of them. So a lot through the
eastern Mediterranean, so around Israel, around the Middle East, a lot.
One of the peak areas was around the border between
Iran and Iraq. So these are all areas that have
been contested where there's military operations going, going on around
(08:14):
the Black Sea as well, obviously around Ukraine, around Russia,
and very intensely around the Baltics. There, pilots are constantly
being jammed as they fly into their airports. And this
is all part of this sort of regime of harassment
and contesting this airspace and making it difficult for the
for the pilots in the area. So that's happening. It's
(08:36):
also that this technology for this sort of activity of
jamming and spoofing is less expensive. It's more widely distributed.
There's more. Also, I think the drift of warfare itself
that relies more on drones and on missiles. These are
things that rely on GPS. So if they can be
defended against through spoofing and jamming, then that's going to
(08:58):
be done. So we're seeing this all sort of come
together at the same time. So the the International Air
Transport Association and the European Airspace Regulator had put out
a note a couple of weeks ago saying that the
incidence of, of this sort of activity has gone up
over 200% in the past couple of years. So this
(09:18):
is a much more sort of common activity that pilots
are learning to have to just deal with.
S1 (09:26):
We'll be right back. And I think there's actually some
history though, isn't there? Besides that one incident of planes
being shot down once they've drifted unintentionally into dangerous or
military areas. Right. If they've deviated from their cleared routes.
So that's another worst case scenario, I think, isn't it,
with regards to a pilot might know. You know pretty
(09:48):
well where they are, but maybe not precisely. And therefore
they sort of deviate into a dangerous area.
S2 (09:53):
Well that's right. Actually, the civilian adoption of GPS actually
goes back to one of these incidences. So this was
back in 1983. A Korean airliner was passing through airspace,
and this was before they had access to satellite signals
to understand where they were. It was passing through airspace
on its way to Korea. And it was it veered
off course and it went over Russian or then Soviet airspace.
(10:19):
Soviet planes were scrambled and in a sort of a
somewhat confused situation, they identified the plane, they shot it down,
and hundreds of people died. And after that, the the
regulators realized that if this plane had access to better
information about where it was, they could have possibly prevented
(10:39):
this shootdown. So, you know, now we're in a new
situation where GPS is used everywhere, but now the means
to disrupt it are becoming more and more commonplace, and
there are more and more a feature of the battle
space that is increasingly moving into the realm of things
like electronic warfare, drones, more missiles. And this is having
(11:00):
a spillover effect into commercial aviation.
S1 (11:03):
And, Chris, I've got to ask you this. How did
you even come across this story? You know, because I'd
never heard about this problem before. I imagine that's the
same with a lot of listeners. So how did you
stumble across it?
S2 (11:13):
Well, I mean, it's something that I was aware of
sort of in the in the corner of my eye.
But as I look more towards the aviation community, you
can see that it's a bigger issue. There is the
issue that over time, if the global commons of GPS
starts to become so contested that it can no longer
be relied on, that will be an issue for global aviation.
So there are organizations that are moving to address this. IATA.
(11:37):
So that's one organization I mentioned, along with the European
Union Aviation Safety Agency have issued a list of proposed solutions.
So some of them are sort of common sense. Standardizing
radio calls about this sort of thing so that that
doesn't exist yet. Establishing monitoring and warning practices. Also facilitating
(11:58):
information sharing. So these are all sort of common sense
things that should be in place. They also want to
add you know, they advocate putting restrictions on jamming devices.
It's not clear how effective that would be given that
some governments and some militias are, are going to use
these and they're not going to be dissuaded. So there
is this awareness. The issue is, as you know, we
rely on aviation. We rely on the system to work
(12:22):
perfectly sort of day after day. And so there's never
a moment where you can just turn things off and
sort of reboot it with a with an upgrade. This
has to be integrated into the system as the system
stays alive, as the system continues to function.
S1 (12:36):
And Chris, just to wrap up, I really appreciate how
you've reported on this without sensationalizing it. You know, you're
not trying to scare people and you're really putting it
in context. You know that by and large, at least
from your reporting, it would certainly suggest that flying is
still safe. But knowing what you do now, are you
still happy to fly? You know? Do you think? Do
you still feel safe?
S2 (12:54):
I do, I do because, you know, this is an
industry that is built on safety. Pilots are professionals. The
safety in the aviation system is built on multiple redundancies.
So if one system fails, there's a backup system, and
then there's another backup system and another one on that.
As one pilot said to me, you know, of all
(13:15):
the concerns of a pilot, this is not possibly the highest. Right.
So the higher concerns would be things like a fire
on board the plane or, you know, if there was
an emergency aboard the plane, a sick patient or something
like that. So these these pilots are prepared for this.
The industry is alert to oncoming and rising challenges and
(13:37):
and difficulties, and this is one of them. So this
is part of the process I think is just being
aware of this. And this is something that the airlines
and the regulators are dealing with.
S1 (13:46):
Well, thank you so much, Chris, for your time.
S2 (13:49):
Oh thank you Sam.
S1 (13:57):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by Julia Carcasole.
Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom McKendrick is our
head of audio. To listen to our episodes as soon
as they drop, follow the Morning Edition on Apple, Spotify,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our newsrooms are powered
by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism, visit The Age
(14:19):
or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up to date, sign
up to our Morningedition newsletter to receive a summary of
the day's most important news in your inbox every morning.
Links are in the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris.
Thanks for listening.
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