June 8, 2025 • 14 mins
Male humpback whales sing to each other, and when they do - over the course of a season - a favourite “hit song” emerges. Each whale passes it along, until all the humpback males in the Southern Ocean sing it.
But humpback whales aren’t just amazing creatures, capable of tenderness, and rivalries. They’ve also managed one of Australia’s great comebacks - they numbered less than 100 on the east coast in the 1960s, and now there’s about 40,000 of them.
Today, environment and climate reporter Caitlin Fitzsimmons on why they’re thriving, while other whales are critically endangered. And whether new information about threats to whales might inform the government’s environmental policies.
Credit:
David Attenborough/Netflix 'Our Planet'
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:02):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday,
June 9th. Male humpback whales sing to each other. And
when they do, over the course of a season, a
favorite hit song emerges. Each whale passes it along until
(00:25):
all humpback males in the Southern Ocean sing it. But
humpback whales aren't just amazing creatures capable of tenderness and rivalries.
They've also managed one of Australia's great comebacks. They numbered
less than 100 on the East coast in the 1960s,
and now there's about 40,000 of them. Today, environment and
(00:46):
climate reporter Caitlin Fitzsimmons on why they're thriving while other
whales are critically endangered, and whether new information about threats
to whales might inform the government's environmental policies. So, Caitlin,
you write that the humpback whale is one of the
greatest conservation successes of the past 50 years. Why is that?
S2 (01:09):
So whales were hunted to the brink of extinction by
commercial whaling until the mid 20th century. All sorts of species,
including humpbacks.
S3 (01:28):
They live in every ocean, traveling the high seas from
their polar feeding grounds to the tropics where they breed.
Yet whales have not always enjoyed such freedom. Once, there
were more than a hundred thousand humpbacks in the oceans,
(01:52):
but last century they were hunted to near extinction.
S2 (01:57):
But since that ended, our humpback numbers have really rebounded.
So along the east coast of Australia, there were estimated
to be fewer than 100 in the 1960s, and now
there's about 40,000.
S1 (02:13):
I mean, that's incredible. I couldn't believe it was down
to 100in the 1960s. I mean, that's sort of really
gives you pause, doesn't it?
S2 (02:19):
It's pretty astonishing. Yeah. To think that they could make
such a recovery, too. It's fantastic.
S1 (02:25):
Well, let's talk about it, because right now you've written
this was so delightful the way you wrote it. You
said it's peak hour on the humpback highway off the
east coast of Australia. So what is happening? Can you
paint a picture of that humpback highway? What does that mean?
S2 (02:37):
Yeah. So humpback whales are migratory. They travel up and
down the east coast of Australia. They also do the
same on the west coast. And they generally spend the
summer down in Antarctica because there are really rich feeding
grounds for them down there. They eat krill and fish,
(03:01):
but there's lots and lots of krill down in Antarctica.
And then they generally spend the colder months up in
the subtropical and tropical waters, um, up in our north
and to our northeast. And that's where they typically would
have their babies and socialize and and hang out. Though
(03:24):
it does seem that, uh, you know, that there are
babies being born in southern waters as well, which is
interesting and something we didn't know so much about until recently.
But in general, what you see is, uh, the, the
whales heading from the south, swimming north, um, at this
time of year, from about May until July, um, August.
(03:47):
And then a month or so later, you start to
see them heading south again to get ready for the
feeding season.
S1 (03:54):
Okay. So let's talk about this incredible comeback really of
the humpback species. I mean, you quoted just before an
astonishing figure, which was that it was down to less
than 100in the 1960s, about 40,000 now, I believe that's
on the east coast of Australia. So tell us, is
it just as a result of commercial harvesting sort of ending,
is that why they've bounced back, or is there something
else about the humpback, which is special in itself, that
(04:16):
sort of enabled it to to return really?
S2 (04:19):
Well, different whale species have fared differently. So it's a
bit of both. There were nearly 3 million whales commercially
harvested in the 20th century, and what humpback whales have
been able to do is rebound because they have babies
every year or every two years at most. Whereas some
(04:40):
other species, such as the blue whale, it's 2 to
3 years, and they also have a more varied diet.
So some species again, such as the blue whale would
only eat krill, whereas humpbacks eat krill. But they can
eat fish, and they do also do what's called social feeding,
(05:00):
where they basically tell each other where the food is.
S1 (05:03):
Okay, so Caitlin, I really have to ask you about
this incredible initiative that was pioneered by the World Wide
Fund for nature. And just a spoiler alert for listeners here,
because I am wondering if what you're about to tell
us is an example of how humans are perhaps not
always like the absolute worst when it comes to animal conservation.
I mean, usually we're the problem, right? But for once,
it seems like maybe we're a part of the solution.
(05:25):
Like we're helping whales survive with this new tool. Do
I have that right? Can we pat ourselves on the back?
S2 (05:31):
Well, I think it's a fantastic initiative. I think there
are lots of, uh, great conservation initiatives and people who
passionately care and do good things for animals and whales.
This particular one really caught my eye because it's an
animated map project that shows different whale species They've got
(05:51):
several in there already, and they're going to expand it
out all around the world, and it animates their migrations.
So it basically looks they're, you know, they're color coded. Um,
so humpback whales are red and blue whales are blue
and so on. So it looks like little fireworks exploding
in our oceans all over the world. It's really cool. Wow.
(06:11):
And you can go in there and interact with it,
you know, zoom in on different regions and look at
the range or, uh, you know, the threats for different
species and so on. So I think, you know, it's
accessible for the general public, but it will also help
policymakers because they need to know this sort of thing
when they're making decisions about, you know, rules for shipping
(06:34):
and fishing and offshore development, whether that be oil and
gas or whether it be wind turbines. Um, you know,
it all can feed into those sort of decisions.
S1 (06:43):
And just to put a fine point on it, because
you spoke with Chris Johnson, who's the global head of
this initiative. And is this the point, really, that it
could help the Australian government to update its biologically important areas,
which is critical ocean areas that are key for various species.
So it'll sort of really give the government information about,
you know, where ship traffic and noise, like where maybe
that should be avoided. Is that right?
S2 (07:05):
Yeah. That's right. And WWF has spearheaded this. But what
they've done is taken everyone's research. So there's dozens of
other organisations who've been involved and contributed findings. And all this,
you know, from satellite tracking to tags to other published
(07:26):
research and brought it all together into one place. So
previously it would have been a lot more piecemeal. You
would have, you know, you had a study here and
a study there. And of course, you always ask developers
to do an environmental impact statement. One thing that Chris
Johnson said that was interesting to me was that when
they do that, it's the developer owns that data. It's
(07:48):
you know, it's not necessarily publicly available for others to use.
S1 (07:54):
We'll be right back. And I wanted to ask you
about another really interesting development. It's technology that can recognize
the song of the minke whale. So tell us about
this because it sounds pretty interesting.
S2 (08:10):
Yeah. So this was actually done by an undergraduate student
from the University of Sydney, Oscar Mayer. He's just 22
years old, actually 23 next week. So perhaps this will
come out on his birthday present. Yeah. And he was
on an industry placement. So basically he went to Accenture,
(08:30):
I think it was and was given these AI tools
and had this interest in marine science. And what he
created was a machine learning system that can apparently there
are all these underwater microphones or millions.
S1 (08:44):
And millions, he said.
S2 (08:45):
Millions. And they're all under the water all around the world.
And so you get these these recordings of the kind
of the soundscape of the ocean. You've got ship noises
and water noises and all the creatures there, and the
I can kind of pull out the song of the
minke whale and identify it, which is cool because it's
not a species. We know as much about it compared
(09:07):
to others, and I think the technology can be broadened
out and applied to other species in the future as well.
S1 (09:14):
And so might this technology actually help the minke whale,
possibly in terms of like if we can identify where
they're traveling, could this possibly be used to help conserve
them as well?
S2 (09:24):
Yeah. The Antarctic minke whale is near-threatened. The common one
from the northern hemisphere is is doing okay. So yeah,
I think the more that we know about their migratory routes,
the more we can help them as well for sure.
S1 (09:40):
And I wanted to just turn back a little bit
to the timing of this particular migration of the humpback whales.
You had something incredible in your piece, which is that
the 10,000 kilometer round trip back to Antarctica is one
of the longest migrations of any animal. I mean, that
that kind of blows your mind. But I wanted to
ask you about the timing of it, because I believe
that this year the humpbacks are traveling down the East
(10:01):
Coast earlier than ever. So why is that? Is that
somehow a sign of climate change?
S2 (10:08):
The scientists do believe it could be that it's possibly
because if there's low sea ice down in Antarctica during summer,
that can reduce the krill numbers, make it harder for
whales to find food. And there's been some sad evidence
about seeing newborns and or yearlings being left early, because
(10:30):
their mothers just can't find enough food for themselves to
be able to help the baby and swim up the
the East Coast. So that's obviously very sad and hopefully
it's not something that happens every year, but that that
is something that has been observed.
S1 (10:47):
And so is climate change now. Like the major threat
to whales such as the humpback whale.
S2 (10:52):
Yeah, it is the biggest threat overall. And it's threatening
in a number of ways from you know, I mentioned
that the sea ice and, you know, just the stress
on the whales themselves and the stress on the food
that they, they eat. The other threats that are around
are entanglements is a really big threat from fishing gear. Um,
(11:13):
whether it's actually being used for fishing or whether it's, uh,
you know, ghost nets that have been discarded in the ocean.
There's believed to be about 300,000 deaths a year globally
from entanglements. There is a competition from fishing. So one
of the things that upsets me is that in Antarctica,
(11:37):
there's a lot of krill fishing And, you know, humans
don't eat krill directly, but it gets used in pet
food and also in supplements for, you know, it's a
it's a good source of omega three. Um, and so
we're basically grinding up whale food and, you know, using
(11:57):
on things that are not even really food. Yeah. Then
there's like ship strikes. That's about 20,000 deaths a year. Wow.
These numbers do include dolphins, whales and dolphins. I should
be clear about that. And you know, and then there's
like smaller stressors like noise, water, plastic pollution. You know,
it just it being a not great environment. So those
(12:20):
are the things that whales are at risk of. So
with the offshore development, it's obviously distressing for whales when
there's seismic surveying for oil and gas development. And you know,
the construction phase of offshore wind can be noisy as well.
But there is a bit of a myth that the
offshore wind turbines directly hurt whales or even kill them,
(12:44):
and that's not the case. There seems to be a
bit of misinformation put about. Some political scientists have actually
traced it back to the fossil fuel industry. So there
are people who genuinely believe it, but there are also
people who've been kind of seeding that misinformation out in
the first place.
S1 (13:01):
So let's just once and for all can we settle this?
Does noise does it really disrupt whales? Does it upset them?
Does it hurt them?
S2 (13:09):
Well noise does so in the construction phase. That's something
you've got to be mindful of. If it's the migration
time of year or something. But when you've got when
you move into the operating phase, they're not really making
it's not really making noise underwater. It's more just a
barrier in the water which whales learn to navigate and
go around, just as they do for a headland or
(13:29):
an island.
S1 (13:33):
Oh that's good. I mean, it's so great to finally
have a good environmental story. Caitlin, thank you so much
for bringing it to us.
S2 (13:39):
I had a whale of a time, Sam.
S1 (13:41):
You had to do it. You had to do it. Thanks, Caitlin.
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
(14:04):
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
(14:27):
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Monday,
June 9th. Male humpback whales sing to each other. And
when they do, over the course of a season, a
favorite hit song emerges. Each whale passes it along until
(00:25):
all humpback males in the Southern Ocean sing it. But
humpback whales aren't just amazing creatures capable of tenderness and rivalries.
They've also managed one of Australia's great comebacks. They numbered
less than 100 on the East coast in the 1960s,
and now there's about 40,000 of them. Today, environment and
(00:46):
climate reporter Caitlin Fitzsimmons on why they're thriving while other
whales are critically endangered, and whether new information about threats
to whales might inform the government's environmental policies. So, Caitlin,
you write that the humpback whale is one of the
greatest conservation successes of the past 50 years. Why is that?
S2 (01:09):
So whales were hunted to the brink of extinction by
commercial whaling until the mid 20th century. All sorts of species,
including humpbacks.
S3 (01:28):
They live in every ocean, traveling the high seas from
their polar feeding grounds to the tropics where they breed.
Yet whales have not always enjoyed such freedom. Once, there
were more than a hundred thousand humpbacks in the oceans,
(01:52):
but last century they were hunted to near extinction.
S2 (01:57):
But since that ended, our humpback numbers have really rebounded.
So along the east coast of Australia, there were estimated
to be fewer than 100 in the 1960s, and now
there's about 40,000.
S1 (02:13):
I mean, that's incredible. I couldn't believe it was down
to 100in the 1960s. I mean, that's sort of really
gives you pause, doesn't it?
S2 (02:19):
It's pretty astonishing. Yeah. To think that they could make
such a recovery, too. It's fantastic.
S1 (02:25):
Well, let's talk about it, because right now you've written
this was so delightful the way you wrote it. You
said it's peak hour on the humpback highway off the
east coast of Australia. So what is happening? Can you
paint a picture of that humpback highway? What does that mean?
S2 (02:37):
Yeah. So humpback whales are migratory. They travel up and
down the east coast of Australia. They also do the
same on the west coast. And they generally spend the
summer down in Antarctica because there are really rich feeding
grounds for them down there. They eat krill and fish,
(03:01):
but there's lots and lots of krill down in Antarctica.
And then they generally spend the colder months up in
the subtropical and tropical waters, um, up in our north
and to our northeast. And that's where they typically would
have their babies and socialize and and hang out. Though
(03:24):
it does seem that, uh, you know, that there are
babies being born in southern waters as well, which is
interesting and something we didn't know so much about until recently.
But in general, what you see is, uh, the, the
whales heading from the south, swimming north, um, at this
time of year, from about May until July, um, August.
(03:47):
And then a month or so later, you start to
see them heading south again to get ready for the
feeding season.
S1 (03:54):
Okay. So let's talk about this incredible comeback really of
the humpback species. I mean, you quoted just before an
astonishing figure, which was that it was down to less
than 100in the 1960s, about 40,000 now, I believe that's
on the east coast of Australia. So tell us, is
it just as a result of commercial harvesting sort of ending,
is that why they've bounced back, or is there something
else about the humpback, which is special in itself, that
(04:16):
sort of enabled it to to return really?
S2 (04:19):
Well, different whale species have fared differently. So it's a
bit of both. There were nearly 3 million whales commercially
harvested in the 20th century, and what humpback whales have
been able to do is rebound because they have babies
every year or every two years at most. Whereas some
(04:40):
other species, such as the blue whale, it's 2 to
3 years, and they also have a more varied diet.
So some species again, such as the blue whale would
only eat krill, whereas humpbacks eat krill. But they can
eat fish, and they do also do what's called social feeding,
(05:00):
where they basically tell each other where the food is.
S1 (05:03):
Okay, so Caitlin, I really have to ask you about
this incredible initiative that was pioneered by the World Wide
Fund for nature. And just a spoiler alert for listeners here,
because I am wondering if what you're about to tell
us is an example of how humans are perhaps not
always like the absolute worst when it comes to animal conservation.
I mean, usually we're the problem, right? But for once,
it seems like maybe we're a part of the solution.
(05:25):
Like we're helping whales survive with this new tool. Do
I have that right? Can we pat ourselves on the back?
S2 (05:31):
Well, I think it's a fantastic initiative. I think there
are lots of, uh, great conservation initiatives and people who
passionately care and do good things for animals and whales.
This particular one really caught my eye because it's an
animated map project that shows different whale species They've got
(05:51):
several in there already, and they're going to expand it
out all around the world, and it animates their migrations.
So it basically looks they're, you know, they're color coded. Um,
so humpback whales are red and blue whales are blue
and so on. So it looks like little fireworks exploding
in our oceans all over the world. It's really cool. Wow.
(06:11):
And you can go in there and interact with it,
you know, zoom in on different regions and look at
the range or, uh, you know, the threats for different
species and so on. So I think, you know, it's
accessible for the general public, but it will also help
policymakers because they need to know this sort of thing
when they're making decisions about, you know, rules for shipping
(06:34):
and fishing and offshore development, whether that be oil and
gas or whether it be wind turbines. Um, you know,
it all can feed into those sort of decisions.
S1 (06:43):
And just to put a fine point on it, because
you spoke with Chris Johnson, who's the global head of
this initiative. And is this the point, really, that it
could help the Australian government to update its biologically important areas,
which is critical ocean areas that are key for various species.
So it'll sort of really give the government information about,
you know, where ship traffic and noise, like where maybe
that should be avoided. Is that right?
S2 (07:05):
Yeah. That's right. And WWF has spearheaded this. But what
they've done is taken everyone's research. So there's dozens of
other organisations who've been involved and contributed findings. And all this,
you know, from satellite tracking to tags to other published
(07:26):
research and brought it all together into one place. So
previously it would have been a lot more piecemeal. You
would have, you know, you had a study here and
a study there. And of course, you always ask developers
to do an environmental impact statement. One thing that Chris
Johnson said that was interesting to me was that when
they do that, it's the developer owns that data. It's
(07:48):
you know, it's not necessarily publicly available for others to use.
S1 (07:54):
We'll be right back. And I wanted to ask you
about another really interesting development. It's technology that can recognize
the song of the minke whale. So tell us about
this because it sounds pretty interesting.
S2 (08:10):
Yeah. So this was actually done by an undergraduate student
from the University of Sydney, Oscar Mayer. He's just 22
years old, actually 23 next week. So perhaps this will
come out on his birthday present. Yeah. And he was
on an industry placement. So basically he went to Accenture,
(08:30):
I think it was and was given these AI tools
and had this interest in marine science. And what he
created was a machine learning system that can apparently there
are all these underwater microphones or millions.
S1 (08:44):
And millions, he said.
S2 (08:45):
Millions. And they're all under the water all around the world.
And so you get these these recordings of the kind
of the soundscape of the ocean. You've got ship noises
and water noises and all the creatures there, and the
I can kind of pull out the song of the
minke whale and identify it, which is cool because it's
not a species. We know as much about it compared
(09:07):
to others, and I think the technology can be broadened
out and applied to other species in the future as well.
S1 (09:14):
And so might this technology actually help the minke whale,
possibly in terms of like if we can identify where
they're traveling, could this possibly be used to help conserve
them as well?
S2 (09:24):
Yeah. The Antarctic minke whale is near-threatened. The common one
from the northern hemisphere is is doing okay. So yeah,
I think the more that we know about their migratory routes,
the more we can help them as well for sure.
S1 (09:40):
And I wanted to just turn back a little bit
to the timing of this particular migration of the humpback whales.
You had something incredible in your piece, which is that
the 10,000 kilometer round trip back to Antarctica is one
of the longest migrations of any animal. I mean, that
that kind of blows your mind. But I wanted to
ask you about the timing of it, because I believe
that this year the humpbacks are traveling down the East
(10:01):
Coast earlier than ever. So why is that? Is that
somehow a sign of climate change?
S2 (10:08):
The scientists do believe it could be that it's possibly
because if there's low sea ice down in Antarctica during summer,
that can reduce the krill numbers, make it harder for
whales to find food. And there's been some sad evidence
about seeing newborns and or yearlings being left early, because
(10:30):
their mothers just can't find enough food for themselves to
be able to help the baby and swim up the
the East Coast. So that's obviously very sad and hopefully
it's not something that happens every year, but that that
is something that has been observed.
S1 (10:47):
And so is climate change now. Like the major threat
to whales such as the humpback whale.
S2 (10:52):
Yeah, it is the biggest threat overall. And it's threatening
in a number of ways from you know, I mentioned
that the sea ice and, you know, just the stress
on the whales themselves and the stress on the food
that they, they eat. The other threats that are around
are entanglements is a really big threat from fishing gear. Um,
(11:13):
whether it's actually being used for fishing or whether it's, uh,
you know, ghost nets that have been discarded in the ocean.
There's believed to be about 300,000 deaths a year globally
from entanglements. There is a competition from fishing. So one
of the things that upsets me is that in Antarctica,
(11:37):
there's a lot of krill fishing And, you know, humans
don't eat krill directly, but it gets used in pet
food and also in supplements for, you know, it's a
it's a good source of omega three. Um, and so
we're basically grinding up whale food and, you know, using
(11:57):
on things that are not even really food. Yeah. Then
there's like ship strikes. That's about 20,000 deaths a year. Wow.
These numbers do include dolphins, whales and dolphins. I should
be clear about that. And you know, and then there's
like smaller stressors like noise, water, plastic pollution. You know,
it just it being a not great environment. So those
(12:20):
are the things that whales are at risk of. So
with the offshore development, it's obviously distressing for whales when
there's seismic surveying for oil and gas development. And you know,
the construction phase of offshore wind can be noisy as well.
But there is a bit of a myth that the
offshore wind turbines directly hurt whales or even kill them,
(12:44):
and that's not the case. There seems to be a
bit of misinformation put about. Some political scientists have actually
traced it back to the fossil fuel industry. So there
are people who genuinely believe it, but there are also
people who've been kind of seeding that misinformation out in
the first place.
S1 (13:01):
So let's just once and for all can we settle this?
Does noise does it really disrupt whales? Does it upset them?
Does it hurt them?
S2 (13:09):
Well noise does so in the construction phase. That's something
you've got to be mindful of. If it's the migration
time of year or something. But when you've got when
you move into the operating phase, they're not really making
it's not really making noise underwater. It's more just a
barrier in the water which whales learn to navigate and
go around, just as they do for a headland or
(13:29):
an island.
S1 (13:33):
Oh that's good. I mean, it's so great to finally
have a good environmental story. Caitlin, thank you so much
for bringing it to us.
S2 (13:39):
I had a whale of a time, Sam.
S1 (13:41):
You had to do it. You had to do it. Thanks, Caitlin.
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Josh towers. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Tom
McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to our
episodes as soon as they drop, follow the Morning Edition
(14:04):
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Our
newsrooms are powered by subscriptions, so to support independent journalism,
visit The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe and to stay up
to date, sign up to our Morning Edition newsletter to
receive a summary of the day's most important news in
your inbox every morning. Links are in the show. Notes.
(14:27):
I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. Thanks for listening.
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.