September 3, 2025 • 28 mins
Almost immediately after Russian opposition leader Alexi Navalny was murdered by the Kremlin last year, in an arctic penal colony, Russian president Vladimir Putin turned his eyes to Navalny’s widow, Yulia Navalnaya.
She knows that nowhere is safe for her; not even flying to Australia, as she did this week. She was once a victim of poisoning. And a Russian court has issued an arrest warrant for her, on charges of extremism.
Today, international and political editor Peter Hartcher joins me to discuss how Yulia Navalnaya is combatting Vladimir Putin and fighting for a “normal” Russia, even as Putin is being welcomed into open arms by an increasing number of democratic leaders.
Subscribe to The Age & SMH: https://subscribe.smh.com.au/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
S1 (00:01):
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
September 4th. Almost immediately after Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny
was murdered by the Kremlin last year in an Arctic
penal colony, Russian President Vladimir Putin turned his eyes to
(00:25):
Navalny's widow, Yulia Navalnaya. She knows that nowhere is safe
for her not even flying to Australia as she did
this week. She was once a victim of poisoning, and
a Russian court has issued an arrest warrant for her
on charges of extremism. Today, international and political editor Peter
Hartcher joins me to discuss how Yulia Navalnaya is combating
(00:48):
Vladimir Putin and fighting for a normal Russia, even as
Putin is being welcomed into open arms by an increasing
number of democratic leaders. So first off, Peter, I have
to say you managed to interview Yulia Navalnaya in person
on Tuesday morning in Sydney. And as I understand it,
(01:09):
she only gives one interview in each country that she
visits and she gave it to you. So first off, congratulations.
S2 (01:16):
Well thank you. I don't need any particular congratulations or credentials.
It was. They approached me.
S1 (01:24):
It's a big deal though, so let's get into it.
Can you just start off by telling us who Yulia
Navalnaya is and how she came to become, as you've written,
the de facto leader of the opposition in Russia, which is,
as I understand it, not something she ever intended to be.
S2 (01:39):
Yulia Navalnaya is a 49 year old Russian woman and
an economist who then married Alexei Navalny and became his
staunch partner in his campaign against corruption in Russia and
corruption in In particular in the Putin regime and his
(02:02):
greatest advocate and defender in pursuit of elected office. He
intended to run for the presidency. He never quite got
there because Putin barred him, but the closest he got
was he did run for the mayor of Moscow and
got about 27% of the vote in a heavily rigged
(02:23):
and rorted campaign, by the way. So 27% in those
circumstances is pretty good.
S3 (02:27):
Thousands of supporters have defeated Moscow mayoral candidate Alexei Navalny,
have gathered in the Russian capital to protest against the poll,
which Navalny claims was rigged in favour of the pro-Kremlin incumbent,
Sergei Sobyanin. The anti-corruption campaigner polled 27%, a huge surprise
for President Putin's United Russia.
S2 (02:53):
After he demonstrated that he was a threat, Therefore, to
Putin he was repressed in a whole sequence of arrests, detentions, tortures,
Novichok attacks, the nerve agent which nearly killed him. Yulia
saved him, by the way, in that circumstance, and insisted
(03:13):
turned personally to Putin and insisted that he be allowed
to go to Germany for treatment, which saved his life.
And he was screaming in agony as he suffered what
he described as the step by step shutdown of his
bodily functions. He was conscious of what was going on,
but unable to control his body, and he was saved
by a German hospital.
S4 (03:36):
It's been almost two weeks since Alexei Navalny fell into
a coma on an early morning flight from Siberia. These
his terrible cries of pain on board before he lost consciousness.
Which Russian medical staff attributed to low blood sugar levels. Now,
this stark announcement from the German chancellor.
S5 (03:55):
Alexei Navalny.
S6 (03:56):
Alexei Navalny was the victim of an attack with a
chemical nerve agent of the Novichok group. This poison could
be identified unequivocally in tests. So it's clear that Alexei
Navalny is the victim of a crime.
S2 (04:11):
Where Angela merkel visited him, by the way, to encourage
him to keep up his work and quote, uh, no
rush going back to Russia. But of course he did.
He did.
S7 (04:23):
Navalny returned to Russia in 2021 and was detained upon
his arrival for what the Russian Federal Prison Service said
were repeated violations of his probation. He would never leave
custody again.
S8 (04:37):
Somehow, Alexei Navalny, Russian President Vladimir Putin's fiercest and most
energetic critic, dropped dead suddenly at a penal colony in Siberia.
Prison officials say Navalny went for a walk but felt
unwell and quickly lost consciousness. They said medics could not
revive him.
S2 (04:59):
And since his murder by Putin's regime in an Arctic
prison last year, she has continued his work both as
an advocate for the idea of a free Russia, a
post-putin Russia, a campaign for sanctions on Putin from governments
around the world and sanctions on his regime, not against Russia.
(05:21):
She hastens to add, she doesn't want people to suffer
in Russia, but she wants Putin's cronies specifically to suffer
and to be punished for their crimes.
S9 (05:32):
For me, it's very close campaign against this regime and
campaign in my husband's memory, because my husband was the
most vocal critic of Vladimir Putin. And of course, it's
very important for me to keep his legacy, to keep
memory about him. Um.
S2 (05:53):
And, uh, she's also taken over the leadership of a
thing called the Anti-Corruption Foundation. The Anti-Corruption Foundation was founded
by her late husband, Alexei Navalny, specifically to conduct investigations
into corruption in the regime and published many and continue.
(06:15):
And they continue. The foundation continues under her leadership to publish,
including one this week. On the same morning that I
interviewed her, the foundation published its findings that the former
culture minister had amassed 74.5 million USD worth of prime
real estate in Moscow and in Europe. And who knew
(06:39):
that culture in Russia could be so lucrative?
S1 (06:42):
Yes, I would love it if you could tell me
how much danger perhaps Yulia and her children are in.
She's got two kids and they live in exile in Lithuania.
But we know she's been a target because of her
leadership now of her late husband's anti-corruption foundation, as you've
just mentioned. So tell me about that. And whether even
traveling here to Australia might have put her life in danger.
S2 (07:01):
Well, even before her husband was murdered, she'd been detained
by the regime. Her home raided many times. Although her
former husband's late husband's Novichok poisoning case was world famous.
It wasn't known, and I only read about it when
I read his memoir, Patriot, that she also got a
(07:24):
dose of Novichok, a milder dose. It didn't kill her,
but she's also been subject to a nerve agent attack
by Putin's thugs. So she's really already gone through quite
a lot. But she and her supporters now judge that
it would be a fatal step to return to Russia,
as it proved for her late husband.
S9 (07:43):
From one side. I can answer you that it's not
safe for me anywhere. Uh, but from the other side,
if you think about it a lot, it there is
no sense to do what I do. If to think
about security all the time, if to think about if
it's safe for me or it's not safe. Of course,
(08:04):
it's like, you know, we'll come into your mind and
it will start living in your mind. That's why I'm
trying not to think about it a lot, but I
understand that. Vladimir Putin, uh, who starts wars, who poisons
his political opponents, who kills his political opponents, can do
(08:25):
anything he wants. But there is no it's not the
reason to stop and to think about security a lot.
But of course, uh, I'm, uh, trying to be careful.
S2 (08:40):
Exactly how much danger she is in. I can't objectively judge.
I could point out that last year, one of her
supporters who works with her and with the Anti-Corruption Foundation,
and I also like her, lives in Lithuania, in exile
from Russia to protect themselves from Putin's regime. His name
is Leonid Volkov. He was the campaign manager for Alexei Navalny.
(09:05):
He was attacked by two men wielding hammers last year
in Lithuania, had his arm broken and multiple injuries. He's
recovered and in fact, he's travelling with with Yulia this
week in Australia. But that's if that gives you a
hint of the sort of risk that they run. There's
that she's travelling with her son who's 17 years old.
(09:27):
Her daughter, though, is not travelling. Her daughter is 23.
And this is it's a bit of a wistful anecdote
here that Yulia told you, which I wasn't able to
use in print. She said that from a very young age,
her daughter had wanted to come to Australia and New Zealand.
She was fascinated by the idea, fascinated by the wildlife,
(09:49):
and that Alexi had said her dad had said to her,
save up all your pocket money, and then one day
you can pay for your ticket and go to Australia.
So she did. She saved. Yulia said she saved all
her birthday money, her graduation presents from her grandparents. She
saved all the money, um, to come to Australia. But
(10:10):
then Putin's, uh, crew ransacked their apartment and took the
kids money. So she hasn't made it yet, but she's
about to start studying in Yale. And presumably, if she
keeps safe, she'll get here one day.
S1 (10:25):
Which brings us to Yulia. Because I wonder how much
of a threat is she to Vladimir Putin? You know,
as you pointed out in your interview with her, Alexei Navalny,
he wrote in his memoir Patriot, which was published posthumously,
that quote of the two of us, she holds even
more radical views and that she hates the Putin regime, quote,
probably even more than I do. So I guess how
(10:45):
radical are her views and how much of a threat
is she to Putin?
S2 (10:49):
Uh, well, on the second part, possibly the best way
of measuring that is by the way he reacts to her. Uh,
he has multiple criminal cases running against her, all on
trumped up charges. He's officially listed her as a terrorist. Uh,
(11:11):
and just with that alone, if she were to return
to Russia, she would face life in prison. Although in
realistic terms, maybe, uh, much worse. Uh, so that's one measure.
He's obviously quite concerned about her. The Anti-Corruption Foundation, which she,
she leads, he's obviously quite worried about that and the
(11:33):
revelations that it continues to make about him, his and
his corrupt dealings and his regime's corrupt dealings, because in
the last three years alone, And he's brought criminal charges
against 76 cases of people donating money to the foundation.
So just to give money to the foundation, uh, is
exposing people to his, uh, criminal charges. So he's obviously
(11:58):
quite worried about her. If he's going to these lengths
to persecute her, to keep her out of the country
and try to shut her down.
S1 (12:07):
And it's been reported elsewhere that it's her goal to
run for president of Russia one day when Putin is
no longer in power. Did you get the sense, or
did she say anything about that being a future goal?
S2 (12:16):
Yes, I did ask her about that. Uh, she was undecided.
She was ambiguous about how to handle that as she said.
She said, um, I want to be a part of
positive change.
S9 (12:31):
My plan is to come back to Russia because I
never wanted to live somewhere abroad. Somewhere exiled in exile. I'll, uh,
to come back to help my country to be a
democratic country, to be normal. You know, my plan is
not something fairy tale to be normal, democratic country. And
(12:56):
I think that people in Russia absolutely ready.
S2 (13:00):
She has said in other times that she would stand
for the presidency post Putin, but she didn't seem, uh,
decided on that. So I guess she's keeping her options open.
Maybe that's simply practical, but maybe also help to keep
Putin on edge, I don't know. She said everything can
change suddenly in Russia. Maybe I can go back in
(13:21):
one year, maybe ten years, maybe never.
S1 (13:24):
And now we've just heard this morning, as we're recording this,
that Foreign Minister Penny Wong has imposed sanctions on 14
of Putin's cronies, essentially. So was that her goal in
visiting here?
S2 (13:34):
Yes. She was brought to Australia as a guest of
the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and I presume
that this was pre arranged pre-organised, coinciding with Yulia Navalny's
meeting today with Penny Wong in Canberra, as well as
other members of the Australian leadership that these sanctions were organised.
(13:55):
It is her goal. She campaigns around the world for
countries to impose new sanctions on Putin and his circle.
So she would be doubtless very pleased with that. She
would doubtless want more. She told me that the Canadians
are the world's best practice in terms of imposing sanctions
on Russia in particular. She was very happy about what
(14:18):
the Canadians had done in June, which was to take
the entire list of 50 Putin cronies and relatives, including
his former wife and his cousins. That was published by
the Anti-Corruption Foundation. And the Canadians imposed Magnitsky style sanctions
on every one of them. What Penny Wong has announced
(14:38):
in Australia today is sanctions on 14 such people which
bar them from travel to Australia, subject any assets they
may have here to confiscation. But more importantly, as Yulia said,
is that these countries, Australia, Canada, she said, because to
quote her, she said, because they're a little bit aside.
S9 (14:59):
That's why you can be a pioneer. So many things
like sanctions to show the example to all the world
and so on. That's why it's very interesting for me
to come here. It's very interesting for me to meet
with Australian politicians.
S2 (15:15):
She wants now other countries. She wants the Europeans, the Americans,
everybody else now to follow the Canadian lead and impose
sanctions on all 50 of what's called the Navalny list. 50.
S1 (15:28):
And of course, the very other side of this coin
is really how embraced Russian President Vladimir Putin has been
by the American president, Donald Trump. So I guess tell
me about that and how how she feels about this relationship.
And in particular, you know, Trump's greeting Vladimir Putin on
US soil just recently in Alaska because obviously it was
very chummy.
S2 (15:48):
Yes. She thinks that it's very unfortunate that Trump is
rehabilitating Putin in the world community and in world politics, uh,
that a country that a leader that has led an
illegal invasion, uh, is now being treated as an equal
by Trump invited to the US, as you say, literally
(16:10):
given the red carpet treatment. And although Trump has promised
repeatedly to impose sanctions and, quote, severe consequences, unquote, on
Putin if he doesn't make haste to end the war
in Ukraine, Putin just flouts all of those threats, has
only intensified his attacks on Ukraine, and Trump has done
(16:32):
absolutely nothing to enforce his own threats and ultimata. So
he's obviously not serious about forcing Putin to the to
the table. Yulia Navalnaya would like to meet Trump to
make her case whether Trump will agree to a meeting.
Who knows? But certainly she thinks that it's unfortunate that
(16:57):
he is. He has succeeded in elevating Putin in demonstrating
to other countries, other leaders. Look, this is a normal
a normal relationship you can have with this Putin character
right now. And as she said, as a as Yulia
said in the interview, leaders of democratic countries are chosen
by their people.
S9 (17:18):
American politicians, European politicians, they are chosen in normal democratic elections.
They are chosen by people of their countries. But by whom?
Putin is chosen.
S1 (17:32):
And I think she made the point. How egregious in
her view, Certainly, it is that that Trump has treated
Putin as an equal on his soil. And I mean,
did you get the sense that she is she just
astonished or.
S2 (17:45):
Uh, I think it's possibly difficult to imagine anything would astonish. Right. Um,
Yulia Navalnaya, she has seen so much, suffered so much,
been so disappointed and injured by the regime. But as
she says, um, she's an optimistic person, and so was Alexei.
(18:07):
And she's determined to remain optimistic throughout. She's pretty, um,
evidently quite a steely character to continue despite all of
the threats and all of the dangers. And, uh, in
meeting her, she's a very composed, very determined and shows
(18:28):
no sign of either being discouraged or frightened. And in fact,
she says, I know that I'm not safe anywhere. There's
nowhere in the world that's safe for me now. But
she refuses to be afraid.
S1 (18:44):
We'll be right back. And then, of course, also happening
this week is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization meeting. Or as
John Bolton, Trump's former national security adviser, and his first
term as president, referred to it the other day, the
League of Authoritarian Gentlemen. So I guess tell us how
(19:04):
significant this meeting is. Who's there? And yeah, is this
illustrating a rise in authoritarian power, like what's what's happening here?
Because of course, it's quite timely. You know, she's of
course trying to bring democratic governments to to sanction Putin.
And there he is among other leaders with XI Jinping.
So tell us about this.
S10 (19:22):
I thought it was quite.
S2 (19:23):
Generous of John Bolton to call him gentleman.
S1 (19:25):
Yes, indeed.
S2 (19:26):
When you have mass murderers like Kim Jong un, Vladimir
Putin Eaten in the in the room. And the world's
most effective, uh, oppressor of the most number of citizens
in the world. XI Jinping in the room. I thought
that was quite a generous description by John Bolton. It is.
(19:48):
So the Shanghai Cooperation Organization was founded by China. It
started as the Shanghai 5 in 1996. There are 26
leaders on the latest count that I've seen in meeting
in China this week. The group continues to grow. And, uh,
(20:10):
Donald Trump, by abandoning not only democratic practice at home,
but advocacy for democracy abroad by cultivating and rehabilitating Vladimir Putin, uh,
has given new energy and encouragement to the authoritarian nations
(20:32):
and made it clear that there is no real price
to pay for an authoritarian leader at the hands of
the US president in any case. That if anything, he
celebrates and elevates dictators above traditional US allies. So have
they been emboldened? I would say yes. Has the group
(20:55):
increased in size and scope? Definitely. And the single greatest
evidence for that is the fact that the Prime Minister
of India, Narendra modi, is in attendance or has been
in attendance earlier this week at the meeting and had
a one on one summit with XI Jinping.
S1 (21:18):
I believe this was the first time in seven years
that India's prime minister has been in China. So yes, notable?
S10 (21:23):
Yes.
S2 (21:24):
So there was a big rupture between China and India
in And 20 when along their shared border disputed border,
the troops of the two sides fell to fighting because
of a protocol to prevent escalation. They didn't carry. They
don't carry arms, but they killed each other with rocks
and sticks and fistfights. And Narendra modi said that India
(21:47):
was hurt and angry and downgraded relations with China and
hadn't been to China since.
S1 (21:55):
And that was a boon for the West, right?
S2 (21:57):
This was an undreamed of misstep by China, by so
alienating and angering India and making it impossible for any
self-respecting Indian prime minister to deal normally with China. The
West had been gifted India as a new, closer partner,
(22:17):
not an ally. The Indians are very careful to maintain well.
They were one of the co-founders with Indonesia of the
Non-Aligned movement in the 1950s, and they are careful to
maintain what they call their strategic autonomy. But suddenly, Modi
became much more accommodating of the West, worked much more
closely with the West. One of the clearest evidences for
(22:41):
that is that he joined. He took India into the
quad at the leader level, the quad, of course, being
a group of four democracies Australia, the US, India and Japan.
And this was celebrated as taking one of the swing
states that will help determine the outcome of the long
(23:02):
run power confrontation between the US, on the one hand
and China on the other, into the West's camp. Not entirely,
but pretty convincingly. Now, because of Trump's tariffs on India
and his dismissive treatment of India, Modi has decided that
(23:22):
it's time to exercise his option to resume normalize relations
with China. And that's what he's done this week.
S1 (23:29):
And Peter, I wanted to bring this back to Yulia
Navalnaya because it's so interesting. We've obviously got this sort
of coziness, I guess, of of authoritarian leaders in China and,
you know, legitimization perhaps of Vladimir Putin. And and yet
when you asked Yulia Navalnaya whether she thinks the world
and Europeans should be angrier with Putin's unceasing aggression, she said, no,
(23:51):
she doesn't think they should be. So why did she
say this? And were you surprised?
S10 (23:54):
Yes. Well, I.
S2 (23:55):
I asked that question because that same morning we got
news that the president of the European Commission, Ursula von
der Leyen, had been in a plane over Bulgaria when
its navigation system was jammed. And it turns out it
was electronic warfare from Russia deliberately endangering the safety of
that flight. And in the end, the pilot had to
(24:17):
land the plane using paper maps because of all the
digital shutdown imposed by Russia. Now von der Leyen is
the closest thing that the Europeans have to a prime
minister for all of Europe. So this is a pretty
aggressive tactic. And so I said to Yulia Navalnaya, do
you think that the Europeans, maybe the wider world, should
(24:40):
be angrier at these aggressions that Putin continues to wage
against Europe, as well as the war in Ukraine? And
her answer was, I don't think the Europeans or the
world should be angry with Putin. She said, I think
the world should be brave, should be brave and confident
in confronting Putin. And she said the logic was, she said,
(25:04):
people are afraid of what he might do, but he's
already done everything. And then she ran through the list,
starting with, you know, stealing elections, murdering her husband all
the way through to last year, rattling the nuclear saber,
threatening to use tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield in Ukraine,
(25:24):
which would have potentially dire implications for other countries in Europe.
Before that was shut down, when he received helpful tips
from the US, China and India that that would be
a particularly bad idea. So he's abandoned that line of rhetoric.
But her reasoning is he's already done everything he can do.
He's throwing everything at the Russian people, at Ukraine and Europe.
(25:46):
Don't be afraid. Be brave. Confront him.
S1 (25:48):
It does make you wonder what it will take. Because
you just wrote over the weekend one of your previous
pieces was about how few democracies I guess there are
thriving in the world these days, right? I mean, we
really sort of are under assault, I guess. Really, aren't we?
You wonder, like, could this be a tipping point? And
if not, it makes you wonder, what will it take?
S10 (26:05):
Well, exactly.
S2 (26:07):
I mean, at what point does the frog jump out
of the boiling pot? Because the pot is boiling? This
has been described. The moment we're living in has been
described as the third wave of authoritarianism, of anti democracy
in the world. The first Was in the 1930s with
the rise of fascism. The second was in the consolidation
of communism during the Cold War, and we are now
(26:31):
in the third. It's been dated starting in 2007. So
around the time of the great, the global financial crisis
and continuing to this day, where the number of Democratic
states continues to decline year on year, and the number,
according to the Economist Intelligence Unit, the number of what
they describe as full democracies in the world has shrunk
to 25 out of nearly 200 countries on the planet
(26:55):
and and shrinking. By the way, the US is not
on its list of full democracies.
S1 (27:00):
Fascinating.
S2 (27:01):
A democracy isn't just a, you know, an election and
a set of electoral rules. It's a whole mindset, a system,
and a pattern of belief and behavior by by a
people and their political class. And it's been breaking down
for years and that's continuing.
S1 (27:18):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time.
S10 (27:21):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (27:32):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to
support what we do. Search The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe
(27:58):
and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive
a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis
and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
This is the morning edition. I'm Samantha Selinger Morris. It's Thursday,
September 4th. Almost immediately after Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny
was murdered by the Kremlin last year in an Arctic
penal colony, Russian President Vladimir Putin turned his eyes to
(00:25):
Navalny's widow, Yulia Navalnaya. She knows that nowhere is safe
for her not even flying to Australia as she did
this week. She was once a victim of poisoning, and
a Russian court has issued an arrest warrant for her
on charges of extremism. Today, international and political editor Peter
Hartcher joins me to discuss how Yulia Navalnaya is combating
(00:48):
Vladimir Putin and fighting for a normal Russia, even as
Putin is being welcomed into open arms by an increasing
number of democratic leaders. So first off, Peter, I have
to say you managed to interview Yulia Navalnaya in person
on Tuesday morning in Sydney. And as I understand it,
(01:09):
she only gives one interview in each country that she
visits and she gave it to you. So first off, congratulations.
S2 (01:16):
Well thank you. I don't need any particular congratulations or credentials.
It was. They approached me.
S1 (01:24):
It's a big deal though, so let's get into it.
Can you just start off by telling us who Yulia
Navalnaya is and how she came to become, as you've written,
the de facto leader of the opposition in Russia, which is,
as I understand it, not something she ever intended to be.
S2 (01:39):
Yulia Navalnaya is a 49 year old Russian woman and
an economist who then married Alexei Navalny and became his
staunch partner in his campaign against corruption in Russia and
corruption in In particular in the Putin regime and his
(02:02):
greatest advocate and defender in pursuit of elected office. He
intended to run for the presidency. He never quite got
there because Putin barred him, but the closest he got
was he did run for the mayor of Moscow and
got about 27% of the vote in a heavily rigged
(02:23):
and rorted campaign, by the way. So 27% in those
circumstances is pretty good.
S3 (02:27):
Thousands of supporters have defeated Moscow mayoral candidate Alexei Navalny,
have gathered in the Russian capital to protest against the poll,
which Navalny claims was rigged in favour of the pro-Kremlin incumbent,
Sergei Sobyanin. The anti-corruption campaigner polled 27%, a huge surprise
for President Putin's United Russia.
S2 (02:53):
After he demonstrated that he was a threat, Therefore, to
Putin he was repressed in a whole sequence of arrests, detentions, tortures,
Novichok attacks, the nerve agent which nearly killed him. Yulia
saved him, by the way, in that circumstance, and insisted
(03:13):
turned personally to Putin and insisted that he be allowed
to go to Germany for treatment, which saved his life.
And he was screaming in agony as he suffered what
he described as the step by step shutdown of his
bodily functions. He was conscious of what was going on,
but unable to control his body, and he was saved
by a German hospital.
S4 (03:36):
It's been almost two weeks since Alexei Navalny fell into
a coma on an early morning flight from Siberia. These
his terrible cries of pain on board before he lost consciousness.
Which Russian medical staff attributed to low blood sugar levels. Now,
this stark announcement from the German chancellor.
S5 (03:55):
Alexei Navalny.
S6 (03:56):
Alexei Navalny was the victim of an attack with a
chemical nerve agent of the Novichok group. This poison could
be identified unequivocally in tests. So it's clear that Alexei
Navalny is the victim of a crime.
S2 (04:11):
Where Angela merkel visited him, by the way, to encourage
him to keep up his work and quote, uh, no
rush going back to Russia. But of course he did.
He did.
S7 (04:23):
Navalny returned to Russia in 2021 and was detained upon
his arrival for what the Russian Federal Prison Service said
were repeated violations of his probation. He would never leave
custody again.
S8 (04:37):
Somehow, Alexei Navalny, Russian President Vladimir Putin's fiercest and most
energetic critic, dropped dead suddenly at a penal colony in Siberia.
Prison officials say Navalny went for a walk but felt
unwell and quickly lost consciousness. They said medics could not
revive him.
S2 (04:59):
And since his murder by Putin's regime in an Arctic
prison last year, she has continued his work both as
an advocate for the idea of a free Russia, a
post-putin Russia, a campaign for sanctions on Putin from governments
around the world and sanctions on his regime, not against Russia.
(05:21):
She hastens to add, she doesn't want people to suffer
in Russia, but she wants Putin's cronies specifically to suffer
and to be punished for their crimes.
S9 (05:32):
For me, it's very close campaign against this regime and
campaign in my husband's memory, because my husband was the
most vocal critic of Vladimir Putin. And of course, it's
very important for me to keep his legacy, to keep
memory about him. Um.
S2 (05:53):
And, uh, she's also taken over the leadership of a
thing called the Anti-Corruption Foundation. The Anti-Corruption Foundation was founded
by her late husband, Alexei Navalny, specifically to conduct investigations
into corruption in the regime and published many and continue.
(06:15):
And they continue. The foundation continues under her leadership to publish,
including one this week. On the same morning that I
interviewed her, the foundation published its findings that the former
culture minister had amassed 74.5 million USD worth of prime
real estate in Moscow and in Europe. And who knew
(06:39):
that culture in Russia could be so lucrative?
S1 (06:42):
Yes, I would love it if you could tell me
how much danger perhaps Yulia and her children are in.
She's got two kids and they live in exile in Lithuania.
But we know she's been a target because of her
leadership now of her late husband's anti-corruption foundation, as you've
just mentioned. So tell me about that. And whether even
traveling here to Australia might have put her life in danger.
S2 (07:01):
Well, even before her husband was murdered, she'd been detained
by the regime. Her home raided many times. Although her
former husband's late husband's Novichok poisoning case was world famous.
It wasn't known, and I only read about it when
I read his memoir, Patriot, that she also got a
(07:24):
dose of Novichok, a milder dose. It didn't kill her,
but she's also been subject to a nerve agent attack
by Putin's thugs. So she's really already gone through quite
a lot. But she and her supporters now judge that
it would be a fatal step to return to Russia,
as it proved for her late husband.
S9 (07:43):
From one side. I can answer you that it's not
safe for me anywhere. Uh, but from the other side,
if you think about it a lot, it there is
no sense to do what I do. If to think
about security all the time, if to think about if
it's safe for me or it's not safe. Of course,
(08:04):
it's like, you know, we'll come into your mind and
it will start living in your mind. That's why I'm
trying not to think about it a lot, but I
understand that. Vladimir Putin, uh, who starts wars, who poisons
his political opponents, who kills his political opponents, can do
(08:25):
anything he wants. But there is no it's not the
reason to stop and to think about security a lot.
But of course, uh, I'm, uh, trying to be careful.
S2 (08:40):
Exactly how much danger she is in. I can't objectively judge.
I could point out that last year, one of her
supporters who works with her and with the Anti-Corruption Foundation,
and I also like her, lives in Lithuania, in exile
from Russia to protect themselves from Putin's regime. His name
is Leonid Volkov. He was the campaign manager for Alexei Navalny.
(09:05):
He was attacked by two men wielding hammers last year
in Lithuania, had his arm broken and multiple injuries. He's
recovered and in fact, he's travelling with with Yulia this
week in Australia. But that's if that gives you a
hint of the sort of risk that they run. There's
that she's travelling with her son who's 17 years old.
(09:27):
Her daughter, though, is not travelling. Her daughter is 23.
And this is it's a bit of a wistful anecdote
here that Yulia told you, which I wasn't able to
use in print. She said that from a very young age,
her daughter had wanted to come to Australia and New Zealand.
She was fascinated by the idea, fascinated by the wildlife,
(09:49):
and that Alexi had said her dad had said to her,
save up all your pocket money, and then one day
you can pay for your ticket and go to Australia.
So she did. She saved. Yulia said she saved all
her birthday money, her graduation presents from her grandparents. She
saved all the money, um, to come to Australia. But
(10:10):
then Putin's, uh, crew ransacked their apartment and took the
kids money. So she hasn't made it yet, but she's
about to start studying in Yale. And presumably, if she
keeps safe, she'll get here one day.
S1 (10:25):
Which brings us to Yulia. Because I wonder how much
of a threat is she to Vladimir Putin? You know,
as you pointed out in your interview with her, Alexei Navalny,
he wrote in his memoir Patriot, which was published posthumously,
that quote of the two of us, she holds even
more radical views and that she hates the Putin regime, quote,
probably even more than I do. So I guess how
(10:45):
radical are her views and how much of a threat
is she to Putin?
S2 (10:49):
Uh, well, on the second part, possibly the best way
of measuring that is by the way he reacts to her. Uh,
he has multiple criminal cases running against her, all on
trumped up charges. He's officially listed her as a terrorist. Uh,
(11:11):
and just with that alone, if she were to return
to Russia, she would face life in prison. Although in
realistic terms, maybe, uh, much worse. Uh, so that's one measure.
He's obviously quite concerned about her. The Anti-Corruption Foundation, which she,
she leads, he's obviously quite worried about that and the
(11:33):
revelations that it continues to make about him, his and
his corrupt dealings and his regime's corrupt dealings, because in
the last three years alone, And he's brought criminal charges
against 76 cases of people donating money to the foundation.
So just to give money to the foundation, uh, is
exposing people to his, uh, criminal charges. So he's obviously
(11:58):
quite worried about her. If he's going to these lengths
to persecute her, to keep her out of the country
and try to shut her down.
S1 (12:07):
And it's been reported elsewhere that it's her goal to
run for president of Russia one day when Putin is
no longer in power. Did you get the sense, or
did she say anything about that being a future goal?
S2 (12:16):
Yes, I did ask her about that. Uh, she was undecided.
She was ambiguous about how to handle that as she said.
She said, um, I want to be a part of
positive change.
S9 (12:31):
My plan is to come back to Russia because I
never wanted to live somewhere abroad. Somewhere exiled in exile. I'll, uh,
to come back to help my country to be a
democratic country, to be normal. You know, my plan is
not something fairy tale to be normal, democratic country. And
(12:56):
I think that people in Russia absolutely ready.
S2 (13:00):
She has said in other times that she would stand
for the presidency post Putin, but she didn't seem, uh,
decided on that. So I guess she's keeping her options open.
Maybe that's simply practical, but maybe also help to keep
Putin on edge, I don't know. She said everything can
change suddenly in Russia. Maybe I can go back in
(13:21):
one year, maybe ten years, maybe never.
S1 (13:24):
And now we've just heard this morning, as we're recording this,
that Foreign Minister Penny Wong has imposed sanctions on 14
of Putin's cronies, essentially. So was that her goal in
visiting here?
S2 (13:34):
Yes. She was brought to Australia as a guest of
the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, and I presume
that this was pre arranged pre-organised, coinciding with Yulia Navalny's
meeting today with Penny Wong in Canberra, as well as
other members of the Australian leadership that these sanctions were organised.
(13:55):
It is her goal. She campaigns around the world for
countries to impose new sanctions on Putin and his circle.
So she would be doubtless very pleased with that. She
would doubtless want more. She told me that the Canadians
are the world's best practice in terms of imposing sanctions
on Russia in particular. She was very happy about what
(14:18):
the Canadians had done in June, which was to take
the entire list of 50 Putin cronies and relatives, including
his former wife and his cousins. That was published by
the Anti-Corruption Foundation. And the Canadians imposed Magnitsky style sanctions
on every one of them. What Penny Wong has announced
(14:38):
in Australia today is sanctions on 14 such people which
bar them from travel to Australia, subject any assets they
may have here to confiscation. But more importantly, as Yulia said,
is that these countries, Australia, Canada, she said, because to
quote her, she said, because they're a little bit aside.
S9 (14:59):
That's why you can be a pioneer. So many things
like sanctions to show the example to all the world
and so on. That's why it's very interesting for me
to come here. It's very interesting for me to meet
with Australian politicians.
S2 (15:15):
She wants now other countries. She wants the Europeans, the Americans,
everybody else now to follow the Canadian lead and impose
sanctions on all 50 of what's called the Navalny list. 50.
S1 (15:28):
And of course, the very other side of this coin
is really how embraced Russian President Vladimir Putin has been
by the American president, Donald Trump. So I guess tell
me about that and how how she feels about this relationship.
And in particular, you know, Trump's greeting Vladimir Putin on
US soil just recently in Alaska because obviously it was
very chummy.
S2 (15:48):
Yes. She thinks that it's very unfortunate that Trump is
rehabilitating Putin in the world community and in world politics, uh,
that a country that a leader that has led an
illegal invasion, uh, is now being treated as an equal
by Trump invited to the US, as you say, literally
(16:10):
given the red carpet treatment. And although Trump has promised
repeatedly to impose sanctions and, quote, severe consequences, unquote, on
Putin if he doesn't make haste to end the war
in Ukraine, Putin just flouts all of those threats, has
only intensified his attacks on Ukraine, and Trump has done
(16:32):
absolutely nothing to enforce his own threats and ultimata. So
he's obviously not serious about forcing Putin to the to
the table. Yulia Navalnaya would like to meet Trump to
make her case whether Trump will agree to a meeting.
Who knows? But certainly she thinks that it's unfortunate that
(16:57):
he is. He has succeeded in elevating Putin in demonstrating
to other countries, other leaders. Look, this is a normal
a normal relationship you can have with this Putin character
right now. And as she said, as a as Yulia
said in the interview, leaders of democratic countries are chosen
by their people.
S9 (17:18):
American politicians, European politicians, they are chosen in normal democratic elections.
They are chosen by people of their countries. But by whom?
Putin is chosen.
S1 (17:32):
And I think she made the point. How egregious in
her view, Certainly, it is that that Trump has treated
Putin as an equal on his soil. And I mean,
did you get the sense that she is she just
astonished or.
S2 (17:45):
Uh, I think it's possibly difficult to imagine anything would astonish. Right. Um,
Yulia Navalnaya, she has seen so much, suffered so much,
been so disappointed and injured by the regime. But as
she says, um, she's an optimistic person, and so was Alexei.
(18:07):
And she's determined to remain optimistic throughout. She's pretty, um,
evidently quite a steely character to continue despite all of
the threats and all of the dangers. And, uh, in
meeting her, she's a very composed, very determined and shows
(18:28):
no sign of either being discouraged or frightened. And in fact,
she says, I know that I'm not safe anywhere. There's
nowhere in the world that's safe for me now. But
she refuses to be afraid.
S1 (18:44):
We'll be right back. And then, of course, also happening
this week is the Shanghai Cooperation Organization meeting. Or as
John Bolton, Trump's former national security adviser, and his first
term as president, referred to it the other day, the
League of Authoritarian Gentlemen. So I guess tell us how
(19:04):
significant this meeting is. Who's there? And yeah, is this
illustrating a rise in authoritarian power, like what's what's happening here?
Because of course, it's quite timely. You know, she's of
course trying to bring democratic governments to to sanction Putin.
And there he is among other leaders with XI Jinping.
So tell us about this.
S10 (19:22):
I thought it was quite.
S2 (19:23):
Generous of John Bolton to call him gentleman.
S1 (19:25):
Yes, indeed.
S2 (19:26):
When you have mass murderers like Kim Jong un, Vladimir
Putin Eaten in the in the room. And the world's
most effective, uh, oppressor of the most number of citizens
in the world. XI Jinping in the room. I thought
that was quite a generous description by John Bolton. It is.
(19:48):
So the Shanghai Cooperation Organization was founded by China. It
started as the Shanghai 5 in 1996. There are 26
leaders on the latest count that I've seen in meeting
in China this week. The group continues to grow. And, uh,
(20:10):
Donald Trump, by abandoning not only democratic practice at home,
but advocacy for democracy abroad by cultivating and rehabilitating Vladimir Putin, uh,
has given new energy and encouragement to the authoritarian nations
(20:32):
and made it clear that there is no real price
to pay for an authoritarian leader at the hands of
the US president in any case. That if anything, he
celebrates and elevates dictators above traditional US allies. So have
they been emboldened? I would say yes. Has the group
(20:55):
increased in size and scope? Definitely. And the single greatest
evidence for that is the fact that the Prime Minister
of India, Narendra modi, is in attendance or has been
in attendance earlier this week at the meeting and had
a one on one summit with XI Jinping.
S1 (21:18):
I believe this was the first time in seven years
that India's prime minister has been in China. So yes, notable?
S10 (21:23):
Yes.
S2 (21:24):
So there was a big rupture between China and India
in And 20 when along their shared border disputed border,
the troops of the two sides fell to fighting because
of a protocol to prevent escalation. They didn't carry. They
don't carry arms, but they killed each other with rocks
and sticks and fistfights. And Narendra modi said that India
(21:47):
was hurt and angry and downgraded relations with China and
hadn't been to China since.
S1 (21:55):
And that was a boon for the West, right?
S2 (21:57):
This was an undreamed of misstep by China, by so
alienating and angering India and making it impossible for any
self-respecting Indian prime minister to deal normally with China. The
West had been gifted India as a new, closer partner,
(22:17):
not an ally. The Indians are very careful to maintain well.
They were one of the co-founders with Indonesia of the
Non-Aligned movement in the 1950s, and they are careful to
maintain what they call their strategic autonomy. But suddenly, Modi
became much more accommodating of the West, worked much more
closely with the West. One of the clearest evidences for
(22:41):
that is that he joined. He took India into the
quad at the leader level, the quad, of course, being
a group of four democracies Australia, the US, India and Japan.
And this was celebrated as taking one of the swing
states that will help determine the outcome of the long
(23:02):
run power confrontation between the US, on the one hand
and China on the other, into the West's camp. Not entirely,
but pretty convincingly. Now, because of Trump's tariffs on India
and his dismissive treatment of India, Modi has decided that
(23:22):
it's time to exercise his option to resume normalize relations
with China. And that's what he's done this week.
S1 (23:29):
And Peter, I wanted to bring this back to Yulia
Navalnaya because it's so interesting. We've obviously got this sort
of coziness, I guess, of of authoritarian leaders in China and,
you know, legitimization perhaps of Vladimir Putin. And and yet
when you asked Yulia Navalnaya whether she thinks the world
and Europeans should be angrier with Putin's unceasing aggression, she said, no,
(23:51):
she doesn't think they should be. So why did she
say this? And were you surprised?
S10 (23:54):
Yes. Well, I.
S2 (23:55):
I asked that question because that same morning we got
news that the president of the European Commission, Ursula von
der Leyen, had been in a plane over Bulgaria when
its navigation system was jammed. And it turns out it
was electronic warfare from Russia deliberately endangering the safety of
that flight. And in the end, the pilot had to
(24:17):
land the plane using paper maps because of all the
digital shutdown imposed by Russia. Now von der Leyen is
the closest thing that the Europeans have to a prime
minister for all of Europe. So this is a pretty
aggressive tactic. And so I said to Yulia Navalnaya, do
you think that the Europeans, maybe the wider world, should
(24:40):
be angrier at these aggressions that Putin continues to wage
against Europe, as well as the war in Ukraine? And
her answer was, I don't think the Europeans or the
world should be angry with Putin. She said, I think
the world should be brave, should be brave and confident
in confronting Putin. And she said the logic was, she said,
(25:04):
people are afraid of what he might do, but he's
already done everything. And then she ran through the list,
starting with, you know, stealing elections, murdering her husband all
the way through to last year, rattling the nuclear saber,
threatening to use tactical nuclear weapons on the battlefield in Ukraine,
(25:24):
which would have potentially dire implications for other countries in Europe.
Before that was shut down, when he received helpful tips
from the US, China and India that that would be
a particularly bad idea. So he's abandoned that line of rhetoric.
But her reasoning is he's already done everything he can do.
He's throwing everything at the Russian people, at Ukraine and Europe.
(25:46):
Don't be afraid. Be brave. Confront him.
S1 (25:48):
It does make you wonder what it will take. Because
you just wrote over the weekend one of your previous
pieces was about how few democracies I guess there are
thriving in the world these days, right? I mean, we
really sort of are under assault, I guess. Really, aren't we?
You wonder, like, could this be a tipping point? And
if not, it makes you wonder, what will it take?
S10 (26:05):
Well, exactly.
S2 (26:07):
I mean, at what point does the frog jump out
of the boiling pot? Because the pot is boiling? This
has been described. The moment we're living in has been
described as the third wave of authoritarianism, of anti democracy
in the world. The first Was in the 1930s with
the rise of fascism. The second was in the consolidation
of communism during the Cold War, and we are now
(26:31):
in the third. It's been dated starting in 2007. So
around the time of the great, the global financial crisis
and continuing to this day, where the number of Democratic
states continues to decline year on year, and the number,
according to the Economist Intelligence Unit, the number of what
they describe as full democracies in the world has shrunk
to 25 out of nearly 200 countries on the planet
(26:55):
and and shrinking. By the way, the US is not
on its list of full democracies.
S1 (27:00):
Fascinating.
S2 (27:01):
A democracy isn't just a, you know, an election and
a set of electoral rules. It's a whole mindset, a system,
and a pattern of belief and behavior by by a
people and their political class. And it's been breaking down
for years and that's continuing.
S1 (27:18):
Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time.
S10 (27:21):
Always a pleasure, Samantha.
S1 (27:32):
Today's episode of The Morning Edition was produced by myself
and Kai Wong. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills. Our
head of audio is Tom McKendrick. The Morning Edition is
a production of The Age and The Sydney Morning Herald.
If you enjoy the show and want more of our journalism,
subscribe to our newspapers today. It's the best way to
support what we do. Search The Age or smh.com.au. Subscribe
(27:58):
and sign up for our Morning Edition newsletter to receive
a comprehensive summary of the day's most important news, analysis
and insights in your inbox every day. Links are in
the show. Notes. I'm Samantha Selinger. Morris. This is the
morning edition. Thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.