America's Moral Crisis with Dr. Andrew Walker

The recent assassination of Charlie Kirk has forced every Christian to confront a sobering question: How do we live faithfully when the culture grows hostile to truth?

On this week’s episode of The Narrative, Dr. Andrew Walker joins CCV's Aaron Baer, David Mahan, and Mike Andrews for a candid conversation about Christian ethics in a world that seems determined to abandon them.

Dr. Walker doesn’t offer easy answers. Instead, he lays out a framework for courage, clarity, and conviction rooted in Scripture — the kind of framework believers desperately need in moments like this.

Before they sit down with Dr. Walker, Aaron and Mike run through this week's news:

✨ One week from today, on Friday, September 26, Allie Beth Stuckey and Pastor Luke Barnett, both friends of Charlie Kirk, will join us for our Cleveland Celebration Gala to honor the life, legacy, and mission of Charlie.

⭐️ CCV's Essential Summit is just around the corner on Thursday, October 2. Featured keynote Willie Robertson shared a special video for Summit attendees.

🌹 The March continues! Our annual Ohio March for Life will continue as scheduled, with more security present. Watch Aaron and David's message here.

📺 Jimmy Kimmel's nighttime talk show has been canceled, amid remarks regarding Charlie Kirk's assassination.

⚖️ CCV, in partnership with Independent Women’s Forum (IWF), has filed an amicus brief with the Ohio Supreme Court in Moe v. Yost, urging the Court to uphold Ohio’s Saving Ohio Adolescents from Experimentation (SAFE) Act. 

 

MORE ABOUT DR. ANDREW WALKER

Dr. Andrew Walker serves as Associate Dean in the School of Theology and Associate Professor of Christian Ethics and Public Theology at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He is the Director of the Carl F. H. Henry Institute for Evangelical Engagement, a fellow in Christian Political Thought at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, and serves as the Managing Editor of WORLD Opinions. 

He writes regularly for outlets such as the National Review, First Things, Newsweek, WORLD Opinions, The Gospel Coalition, American Reformer, and Public Discourse. In 2023, he was one of the winners of the inaugural “Freedom and Opportunity” academic awards from the Heritage Foundation for his contributions to conservative thought.

Dr. Walker researches and writes about the intersection of Christian ethics, public theology, and the common good. His academic research interests include natural law theory, human dignity, theology of law, family stability, church-state studies, and social conservatism. His analysis and commentary have been cited in such outlets as The New York Times, Los Angeles Times, and many others. He oversees several Doctor of Ministry students and Research Doctoral students, as well as serving as the primary program coordinator for Southern’s Ethics and Public Theology concentration.

He is a member of Highview Baptist Church in Louisville, Kentucky, where he resides with his wife and three daughters.

You can follow his commentary on X at @andrewtwalk or by listening to his co-hosted podcast, The Bully Pulpit.

 

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Episode Transcript

S1 (00:00):
The Constitution is just a legal document. Uh, legal documents
require that there be people under the law who are
able to be guided by some type of deeper ethic
than just what the law itself can provide.

S2 (00:21):
Hi again, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Narrative Podcast,
Mike Andrews and Aaron Baird joining you today. And it
is going to be a busy couple of weeks here
around CCV. Aaron, we're running no better way to kick
off this stretch for us than to square off in
fantasy football this week.

S3 (00:36):
Is that is it you and me this week?

S2 (00:37):
It is you and me this weekend it is go
time narrative going down. There's some extra spice on the line.
We will be sure to update you on the outcome
of that epic showdown.

S3 (00:49):
Still, still, the best part of our fantasy football league is, uh,
our very sweet and kind HR director here has the
best team name ever. That might be an HR violation
as her, because her husband's a big Packers fan and
their team name is that's what cheesehead. And I was like,
this is so funny. But like, we didn't even know

(01:11):
if she got the joke at first. If her husband
was like, you should just name it this, right? And
she does get the joke. It's a good office reference, but.

S2 (01:17):
An office reference for his persistent HR violations by our HR.
I don't know if you could weave that web any finer.

S3 (01:25):
It's too good, but that's that's exciting. Well, and it
was the joy of this. I've never had a more
stacked fantasy football team, because I think a good half
of the league has never played fantasy football before. And
so all of the ladies in the league just drafted
all of the Buckeyes that are in the NFL. It's kind.

S2 (01:45):
Of.

S3 (01:45):
Hard. Yeah. Which is which is very sweet. But yes,
please do take, you know, uh, Justin Fields in the
third round and yeah.

S2 (01:53):
You're sitting there getting like the second ranked player.

S3 (01:55):
With.

S2 (01:55):
Your seventh pick in the first.

S3 (01:56):
Round anyway. Sorry. We have not a fantasy football podcast.

S2 (02:00):
It could be though, if we could. If we keep mayhem, if.

S3 (02:02):
We keep sports.

S2 (02:03):
As much as we want. This is why you tune
in to the narrative. We know that you love the
banter that kicks off every episode.

S3 (02:09):
Fantasy football takes.

S2 (02:10):
In all seriousness. We need you to take a moment.

S3 (02:14):
Yes.

S2 (02:14):
Give us a five star review. Share the podcast. Help
us build our numbers. Yes. We haven't made an appeal
in a while.

S3 (02:21):
Leave reviews. Well, the thing is, we can tell by
the the listener downloads that we're getting good downloads, but
you guys gotta leave reviews. So this is our, our plea, uh, for, uh,
leave those reviews and those, uh, the ratings, they help
us reach more folks.

S2 (02:37):
And stop mentioning David Mehan when you do.

S3 (02:39):
Yes, please.

S2 (02:40):
Those going straight to his head.

S3 (02:42):
Actually take us backwards.

S2 (02:44):
Well, I mentioned the busy few weeks that we've got
coming up. We we kicked it off actually with some
some news this week. As our listeners know, you had
a very, you know, heartfelt episode last week about Charlie Kirk,
and he certainly was coming to our gala and Cleveland
supposed to next week. And we were able to to

(03:05):
get in some of Charlie's friends to to help us
honor him. We found out this week that Allie Beth
Stuckey is going to come and Pastor Luke Barnett, two
people who knew him pretty well. This should be a
fun night up in Cleveland to honor his memory.

S3 (03:17):
Yeah. I mean, I gotta say, the outpouring of encouragement
from friends all over the state, even the country, um, of,
you know, hey, we got to move forward with with
the gala, um, and and also just on not not
just for the sake of we're not going to be intimidated,

(03:38):
but we've got to press this mission forward. Um, and
we need to, you know, raise funds for CCV and
push forward with what you're doing. Um, and I'll just
tell you one, I had met Pastor Luke Barnett, who
is Charlie's pastor at Dream City Church in Phoenix. I'd
met him years ago when I was working out there.
And always, you know, they do amazing work. Um, and

(03:59):
that was a, a friend of a friend connected us
and he, like, almost instantaneously, instantaneously said, yes, we're happy
to come out, honor Charlie and help you guys, you know,
carry on. Um, and then I gotta say, with Allie Beth, like, I,
I'm a big Allie Beth Stuckey fan. Um, I will
tell you, I know for some of our older listeners,

(04:20):
they might not know who she is, but like you
look at the reach she's having with with millennial moms
and young women, uh, Gen Z-ers like, she was huge
with Tpusa. Um, she is just an incredible voice. And
even she, like, she is, uh, you know, around our
wives age, um, and is a mom, and she's, you know,

(04:42):
because of that, she's very particular about how much travel
she does. Uh, and I don't I know she wouldn't
mind us sharing this. Like, she had closed off her
travel for the month, right? She she wasn't taking any
more speaking requests, especially two weeks out, and was so
gracious because of the what happened with Charlie, the assassination.

(05:03):
She reopened her booking to come out for us, and
that was just so kind. And again, I think these
two people in particular, um, are going to be able
to not just talk about who Charlie was, but put
into context. The moment we are in our country, put
into context where Charlie's heart was and also how we

(05:24):
carry forward. Uh, and so this is going to be
a gala unlike any other. Um, but I'm really looking
for I was kind of dreading, uh, it after everything happened.
I just didn't know how we go forward from here. Yeah. Um,
and now I just, uh. I'm really looking forward to
Thursday night.

S2 (05:40):
Yeah. And I think the point you made about both
of these individuals making last minute plans to join us
also says something about Charlie and what he meant to them,
that they would be willing to honor his legacy by
honoring the speaking engagement. And it's it's going to be
a great night. You know, the the news of his
assassination and some of the details that have continued to
trickle out over the past week, still in the news cycle.

(06:02):
And one thing we were talking about before we got
started here, Aaron, is, um, today we found out that
Jimmy Kimmel. Right. Got canned. Yeah. For for the comments
that he made because he's continuing to push that narrative
that this is actually a extreme right wing MAGA shooter
with all these beliefs. It's one of the right wingers
who did it. And it just raised the conversation in

(06:26):
my mind as we've seen this. We've obviously pushed back
against the idea of cancel culture, but at the same time,
the type of speech that we've seen as whether it's
teachers or just notable employees of notable companies that have
gone very public with statements about against Charlie Kirk and
in celebrating his assassination, you see reports of them getting fired.

(06:50):
It doesn't feel like cancel culture. And I'm curious what
your thoughts are on that. Like, is this just like
because we're on the right side of it this time,
or how are we making the decision?

S3 (07:02):
Uh, no, I, I love the, the the juxtaposition of
cancel culture and consequence culture. Um, again, Jimmy Kimmel is
free to say what he wants. You have people on
the left, uh, spinning this to say, oh, no, they
they did this because of Trump. Uh, and because of
the federal government. And by all means, if if the

(07:23):
federal government were to come in and say that guy
needs fired for what he said, like, yeah, I would
have an issue with that. Uh, elected officials certainly can
criticize things. People say that's a part of free speech generally. Um,
but the idea that, like, you can say whatever you
want free of consequences, nobody's ever agreed with that. And

(07:44):
there is a difference, right? I'll say I see cancel
culture on the on the right that I don't like.
A great example of this was from a few weeks ago,
and I purposely did not want to bring it up
on the narrative. It's enough in the rear view mirror
now that I'm okay talking about it, but there was
that really embarrassing video of the woman Phillies fan who

(08:08):
took a oh yeah, took.

S2 (08:09):
The ball from the home.

S3 (08:09):
Run. Yeah. From a kid. Yeah. And, you know, it
was a a very embarrassing moment for her. You know,
just looking at she looked like a classic liberal. You know, Karen,
for lack of a better phrase. I don't know how
you describe her. Um, and apologies.

S2 (08:25):
To our Karen fans.

S3 (08:26):
Our Karen listeners, our listeners who are named Karen. But
you get the you get what I'm saying there. And
you know the right just I saw on X I
mean again both you and I saw it Mike. Our
algorithms are probably very similar baseball, baseball and conservative. We're
getting the same, uh, thing center on. But this was
this was everywhere. And people started looking up who she

(08:48):
was and tweeting about her nonstop. That to me was
conservative cancel culture. And I'm not okay with that because
this is a private person who just so happened to
get on camera doing something very embarrassing and very unfortunate,
and we don't need to be finding out who she
is and making her life miserable. That's like, yeah, we

(09:09):
all can see that and be like, oh, that's drunk
people shouldn't be that way.

S2 (09:13):
And it worked out okay for the kid. He got
to meet Harrison Bader. He got an autographed bat.

S3 (09:16):
Like it would all. It was all great. But like,
that's finding a random person and and projecting our political
ideology onto them and purposely making their life miserable. That's
conservative cancel culture, right?

S2 (09:34):
There's an element of digging involved in it, too, whether
it's it's a current thing that happened or if you're
going back into somebody's past to try and bring something
into the present.

S3 (09:42):
You're looking for a way to you're going out of
your way to make that person's life more more difficult
that to me. That's cancel culture. That's. I want nothing
to do with that stuff. Um, the Jimmy Kimmel stuff, though,
is like, no, listen, if you say something especially that's
a lie and especially something that's so morally repugnant, like, yeah,
there's consequences for those things, right? Just like there's consequences

(10:05):
for all of us if we say or do something
really stupid. Um, and Jimmy Kimmel being fired for that,
that's or at least placed on indefinite leave, which is
ostensibly fired. And I think, you know, for all of
us that were really listening to the, uh, when all
the Stephen Colbert stuff happened, I remember hearing Jimmy Kimmel

(10:25):
say himself, he didn't expect his show to go many
more years just because the the finances of these shows
don't work much anymore. So you put all of that
in there, plus this kind of messaging and you're like, yeah,
of course people don't want anything to do with this anymore. Um,
so I, I obviously am very excited that this is

(10:45):
that our culture can now at least look at what
Jimmy Kimmel did and say, we agree this is wrong, right?
We shouldn't one lie, but two also be mocking the people.
Somebody like Charlie Kirk that was just assassinated. And as
an aside to this, the more we go into these things,
the more I get frustrated. I'm I'm so tired of

(11:12):
the folks who are, you know, speaking out or putting
out statements about the assassination. Assassination of Charlie Kirk. I
don't understand why everyone on the political left feels the
need to caveat their statements of remorse with Charlie Kirk,
and I didn't agree about anything. But listen, it doesn't

(11:35):
matter what you agree. If somebody gets shot in the
throat and murdered, it's awful. Full stop. Like no one,
no one's gonna look at Bernie Sanders and say, oh,
Bernie Sanders thinks it's bad. Charlie Kirk was shot in
the throat. He must obviously be a secret right wing conspiracy.
Right guy? I don't know, like, it's it's. And I

(11:58):
juxtapose this earlier with with when the the Minneapolis, the
Minnesota state lawmakers were murdered in their households in cold
blood in an awful, like, haunting situation. I did not
say a single state lawmaker or Republican leader or conservative
say they may be Democrats, but nobody deserves this, right? Like, no,

(12:20):
we can just say, this is terrible. Nothing like this
should happen. Um, and just again, it's such a a
sign of how politics is the religion of the left today,
and they can't even put out a humane statement without
having to make clear that their politics are still pure

(12:41):
and intact.

S2 (12:41):
Yeah, I think Gavin Newsom probably got as close as
anybody did on that, which is surprising given how.

S3 (12:47):
Many oh my.

S2 (12:48):
Gosh, the things that guy has said throughout his political career,
but that in that instance, I think he got it
right and we can call balls and strikes on that one. Well,
we want to help you think through things like this
as we're talking cancel culture and consequence culture and the
difference there, and just a lot going on in the
world and a couple other ways that we want to
help you do that is with our essential summit, which

(13:08):
is coming up in a couple of weeks. It'll be
followed by the March for life. Uh, these are exciting events, too.
And we got a special treat this week from Willie Robertson,
who recorded a video for us that was just so great.

S3 (13:20):
Maybe we should tag that in here just so you
guys can, like we. I didn't know this was coming.
And Willie just shot a cool little video and shot
it over. Um, so maybe we could link it in there, but.

S4 (13:31):
What's up, guys? It's Willie Robertson, and I cannot wait
to come to the summit. Uh, there in Columbus, Ohio.
You know what I did? I came all the way.
I'm doing this from Michigan. That's how excited I am.
I wanted to come on Michigan soil to promote the
summit in Columbus, Ohio. Uh, Aaron and the team have

(13:55):
an incredible lineup of conference we're going to be talking about,
kind of all the crazy stuff that's going on in
the world with us, but we want to leave you
with ways to live out your faith. And I know
God has so much in store for you. How you
need to live it out in your homes. How we
need to live it out in church. I would need
to live it out in our community. So I'm so excited.

(14:15):
October 2nd. Get your tickets. The essential summit right there.
I will be there and I'm bringing the fire, so
I'll see you there.

S3 (14:27):
Uh, super exciting. And, uh, and again, the summit has just.
We've only done one year. This is our second year
doing it. Uh, we're almost completely sold out. So if
you haven't gotten your tickets yet, be sure to get
those in. Um, but the the ability, especially right now,
to step back and really dig in deep, um, is

(14:47):
is just something we don't get a lot of time
to do typically. And the summer has just become my
favorite time to be able to do something like that.

S2 (14:53):
Not only the event itself, but you really get that
sense of fellowship and camaraderie, because I don't want to
say that it's super niche, that you can't get something
out of it, but there's something about being in the
room with believers who understand the importance of cultural engagement
or political activity. Right? Even just dutiful citizenship of voting

(15:16):
and things like that, being informed of what's going on.

S3 (15:18):
Well, I think that's right. Mike and I, I mean,
it's the other reason why we have we added a
breakout track this year. So we have the general sort
of general admission, faith and action. We have the track
for business leaders, for pastors, for educators. And then we
added the pregnancy center track. And for exactly that reason
to to obviously all together during the big plenary sessions.

(15:38):
The keynote sessions are, uh, is is amazing. That's when
the the big speakers, the the Willie Robertson's and Rosario
Butterfield and Karl Truman, those guys speak. But the those
breakout sessions where you get to connect with others. And
that was one of my favorite things that came out
of last year, was hearing about the relationships that were built, um, uh,
that came out of the summit. Um, and I also

(15:59):
just want folks to know, you know, we yesterday we
had more law enforcement in this building than I can.
It was just uniform after uniform of.

S2 (16:07):
Normally they're looking for me.

S3 (16:08):
Exactly. Normally they're scouring this building, but, uh, on just
making preparations to keep the summit safe and the march safe. Um,
after the assassination, we're taking these things very seriously. Um,
and I feel really good about about the safety and security,
but also the bottom line for this, I mean, for me, Mike,

(16:28):
is this person, uh, Tyler, whatever his name was in Utah, um, he.
This was an act of terrorism He wanted to he
wanted to tell folks like us that we're not safe.
If we go out and we we speak truth about
these issues and we're not going to be bullied, we're
not going to be silenced. Um, one the the gospel

(16:51):
needs to reach every corner of the earth. And so
everywhere we go, we're going to make sure we proclaim
the goodness of Jesus Christ. Amen. Um, but also to
that day, this shooter brought into question the value of
every life. Uh, that that, to me, is what makes
me so frustrated about how the left is talking about
Charlie Kirk saying, well, I didn't agree with Charlie, but no,

(17:14):
but nobody deserves to be executed in the way. Charlie was, right.
We could set aside that these are the same people
that oppose the death penalty. But there there some people
that are applauding, you know, Charlie's assassination or applauding, you know,
Luigi Mangione. But like the this our country right now, uh,
does not understand that every life is made in the

(17:36):
image of God and is infinitely worthy and infinitely valuable. Um,
and that's why we've got to continue to march. That's
why we're not stopping even. Yeah. Like, who knows if
people are being inspired by this crazy guy off in Utah?
I pray not. We're doing everything we can to be safe,
but no matter what, we can't stop because this guy
is questioning the value of every human life. And it's

(17:58):
up to us to declare that everybody matters.

S2 (18:01):
Yeah. Amen. That's well said. Uh, one more thing we
want to touch on here in the new segment today.
And this is this is breaking news. I know we've
said that a couple of times, but as we were
sitting down to record, Sam sent hit send on this email. Yeah.
So CCV filed an amicus brief in the case that
is or was filed to hold up the Safe act,

(18:23):
which prevents sterilization of kids through transgender medicine and procedures
and that kind of stuff. So, filed an amicus brief
in that case. Uh, tell us about the brief and
what it involves.

S3 (18:34):
Yeah. So, you know, just to bring everyone back up
to speed. This was the House bill 68. DeWine vetoed it.
We overrode the veto. ACLU filed a lawsuit in Franklin County.
We won in the county court. Court of appeals blocked
the law from going into effect. Supreme court did not
overturn their ruling, but said the law had to be

(18:56):
allowed to be in effect while it's being appealed before
the full court. So we filed a friend of the
court brief, um, in partnership with Independent Women's Forum, um,
where we specifically went after the lower court's reasoning, questioning
whether the legislature had the right, uh, to do this. Uh,
and the lower court had made some pretty crazy arguments.

(19:20):
We we don't need to dig into all of the
things they said.

S2 (19:23):
Well, and there's the fact, too, that they allowed the
law to stay in effect even though they ruled against it.

S3 (19:28):
Exactly.

S2 (19:28):
That's kind of suspect.

S3 (19:30):
Yeah. They knew that this wasn't gonna win. But, you know, again,
this is one of these things, a few things. One, um,
this is where we have to pay attention to the
who's on our state Supreme Court. Remember, these are elected
officials on the state Supreme Court. So we need to
pay attention to to where they're at and what they're doing. Um,
but two, we have to stay engaged. It's not just

(19:51):
enough to to vote to get people elected. It's not
just enough to, uh, work, to get bills passed. We
have to see these things all the way through. And
why does it matter? Well, earlier this last week, Nationwide
Children's announced they were completely ending all of their gender
medicine on kids. Right. What's big about that is they

(20:11):
in the Safe act, the one little compromise that had
to get in there to, to get this thing passed
was that kids that were that were currently on gender medicine,
they were going to let them finish. Right. Um, nationwide
is saying, nope, we're done with everything. Uh, this is
a Goliath that fell, and it's because of law. They
cited the safe act. Um. And so again, we need

(20:34):
the court to rule the right way. We're laying out
the clear legal case that they have no justification for
blocking this law from going. If if the legislature can't
prevent hospitals from sterilizing kids, then we can't regulate medicine
at all. Um, and, uh, so it's a really clear
case and we expect to win, but it's something we

(20:55):
got to keep an eye on.

S2 (20:56):
All right, friends, well, now you are fully in the
know on all of those things. Don't forget to get
your tickets, leave a review and prepare for Aaron's beatdown
in fantasy football that is coming this week.

S3 (21:06):
An epic one. I still don't think so. You probably
just drafted all Titans. I haven't even looked at your team.

S2 (21:10):
That's not true. I only have two on my team.

S3 (21:13):
Both of them having having any Titans I feel like
is a, uh, a downfall for you.

S2 (21:20):
I'm playing the kicker because they can't score a touchdown.

S3 (21:22):
That's true. That's not bad. Yeah.

S2 (21:24):
Well, for our interview this week, great conversation coming up
with Andrew Walker from Southern Seminary. What a great thinker
and just really engaged in the cultural moment. And we
covered a lot of ground with that. We got a
lot to say, and it's hard to even tee up
exactly what we talked about because it goes so many
places but follows logically. I promise you'll be able to
stick with it. I think it'll benefit you. And it's

(21:45):
coming up next on the narrative. Hey, narrative listeners, you know,
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(22:09):
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(22:36):
back on the narrative. Mike Andrews, Aaron Beyer, David Mahan,
joined now by Doctor Andrew Walker, who serves as the
associate dean in the School of Theology and as associate
professor of Christian Ethics and Public theology at Southern Baptist
Theological Seminary in Kentucky. He's an author, speaker, and commentator
with a focus on Christian ethics, public theology, and the
common good. Andrew, it's so great to have you joining

(22:58):
us here today on the narrative. Thanks for the time.

S1 (23:02):
Hey, guys. Great to be with you. Thanks for the
invitation to be here.

S2 (23:05):
Well, we could use some good Christian ethics and public
theology these days with everything that's been going on in
the world. And even as we were saying hi here
on the zoom call, we started jumping into conversations and
questions that we should have just saved for the recording. So, uh,
where we were at was just talking about at southern.
What's the atmosphere been like in the wake of the
Charlie Kirk assassination? How are the how are the students

(23:26):
doing with the news?

S1 (23:29):
Sure. So it it has been, um, a pretty major
moment for the campus. Um, the night of the assassination, uh,
there was a student gathering. You might liken it to
a vigil, perhaps to kind of reflect upon the circumstances.
And then, uh, the president of the institution, Doctor Mueller,

(23:51):
kind of felt that there was some real urgency to
this issue and decided to call an audible. And on
Thursday morning, uh, changed the chapel programming for the morning, uh,
from a traditional sermon to a panel discussion with myself
and two of my colleagues and Doctor Mohler. Um, just
kind of reflecting on the significance of the moment and

(24:14):
how Christians need to think about it. And what struck
me was while I was sitting on stage, I was
looking out into the audience, and, um, faces of students
were noticeably forlorn and they looked like, uh. Something traumatic
had happened. And so I think that this really speaks

(24:36):
to the effectiveness of Charlie Kirk really being a voice
for a generation of younger conservatives. And then at a
place like Southern Seminary in Boys College, you know, there's
natural affinity, uh, for the for the worldviews here. And
so this is a place where someone like Charlie Kirk was,
was very popular. And again, that was reflected quite evidently,

(25:02):
the campus.

S3 (25:04):
Yeah. I want to dwell there for a second. Uh, Andrew, uh,
I think for a lot of, you know, older Americans,
folks like that Charlie's, you know, he, he he might
get lumped in with the, the Fox News, uh, you know, personalities, right?
And the folks you see out on the campaign trail,
things like that. And, you know, he certainly was in

(25:26):
those circles. Uh, but for for college students and below
we we had a a vigil here, um, a couple
nights ago in Columbus that I was at. And it
was a different, you know, typically you have a, uh,
a Republican crowd, something like that. And it's a lot
of gray hairs, right? A lot of a lot of
older folks there. But it was a younger crowd than

(25:49):
I think we've ever seen. And, you know, I used
to always joke in political campaigns if somebody would say, um, hey,
I want to I got an idea for turning out
the youth. I'd say, I got a great idea for
that money. Let's just set it on fire. Yeah, that's.
It'll be a lot faster for us than. But Charlie
reached a he got it the next generation more than

(26:10):
anybody else. And the numbers prove out that he. He
actually drove out those voters. What was it about Charlie
that spoke to the upcoming generation? Uh, more than really
any other, you know, Political leader I've ever seen.

S1 (26:26):
Yeah. So I think, you know, he was 31 when
he passed away. I think that that means he roughly had, um,
12 because he started doing kind of his activism when
he was 18, I believe. Um, so, you know, he
he had roughly 13 to 14 years, which is kind
of taking us back to 2010, 2011 when when social

(26:51):
media is still. So what Charlie Kirk was able to
do was to leverage social media at the right time.
But it wasn't just a social media thing. It was, uh,
in in variably that he was a happy warrior. And

(27:12):
I think that, you know, the reputation of conservatives being stodgy, uh,
holed up in their traditions, um, kind of angry, embittered
towards the culture. He represented the total opposite of that. Um,
and one of the things that I've been reflecting upon

(27:32):
in the aftermath of his, of his tragic death is,
you know, we're told that we live in kind of
a post-racial society or a post persuasion society. I think
Charlie Kirk taught us that persuasion is still possible. Um,
and I think if we're going to carry that torch forward,

(27:53):
it means that, um, we need to be those happy warriors.
And what I love about Charlie Kirk is that, um,
you know, he never backed down from stating his convictions. Um,
but he was willing to do it in a cheerful way. Um,
and a cheerfully combative way, even, I would say. And
then also, he would go on to what we would

(28:15):
consider hostile territory. So when he goes on Gavin Newsom, uh,
you know, the most progressive governor in the United States.
He projects joy, enthusiasm. He's able to find some common
ground with Gavin Newsom. It sends the signal that conservatism
is not synonymous with entrenchment or anger. It's it's synonymous

(28:41):
with being daring, with being courageous, um, with being hopeful
and optimistic, uh, and not having to sacrifice your convictions, uh,
in the, in the process.

S3 (28:53):
You know, I think, Charlie, uh, as much as anything
embodied this, this shift we've seen on the right. And, Andrew,
you and I are kind of in, like, the same
class of conservatives coming up, um, over the years. I
still remember your your.

S1 (29:10):
That's another way of us saying we're now old.

S3 (29:12):
We're now old. Exactly right. Uh, I also like I.

S2 (29:16):
Catch David, though.

S3 (29:17):
Exactly. He's got us beat a little bit here, but
I still remember your cover with with Ryan Anderson on
Citizen magazine, just like an all time banger. Um, but,
you know, I really feel like what? Especially when I
got in to to politics, you know, the idea that, uh, conservatives, Christians,

(29:40):
whatever could talk more like normal people than the left
could seemed impossible, right? We just we we just could I.
And that was, you know, right in the the throes
of the most intense debates over gay marriage. And we
just we couldn't not talk like robots all the time.
And then you see where we are today, where you

(30:03):
have people like, like, uh, Charlie Kirk, like Vivek Ramaswamy,
like JD Vance, that'll go anywhere and talk with anybody
and can sound like a normal person. Where did this
how did this shift happen? One not just that. On
the right where we could start talking like, like normal people. Um,
but to the left, all of a sudden is the

(30:24):
one that's, you know, so finely messaged that they they
sound like an AI bot.

S1 (30:30):
Yeah, yeah. So, so I don't know that it's because
they're so finely messaged. I think it's because the left
is just absolutely weird and bizarre and anti-reality. And you know, I've,
I've said this on my own podcast several times, um,
to simply to simply be normal today is going to

(30:53):
code as being right wing. What I mean by that is,
you know, um, when, when, um, RFK and Secretary Hegseth, uh,
came out with this video talking about, like, getting fit,
and they're in the gym together. Um, the New York
Times released an article saying that, like, is going to

(31:16):
lead to body shaming individuals who can't pursue physical fitness.
And it's like, oh, wait, okay, hold on a second.
So the response to getting fit is to say, well,
some people can't get fit, so we shouldn't talk about
it at all. And so you have two individuals who
are doing something profoundly normal, which is exercising. They're serving
in a Republican administration. So so all of a sudden,

(31:37):
if you like to exercise, the New York Times just
kind of made you unintentionally more right wing and more
conservative now for doing ostensibly normal things. Um, if you
believe that kids need moms and dads, uh, you know,
a truth that all human civilizations held to, uh, up
until about, you know, 20 minutes ago that now codes

(31:58):
as as conservative in our culture. So I don't know
that the conservatives had to do anything different other than
to let the terminal consequences of progressivism work their way
out into the ether in the public square. And to
recognize like this is really bizarre stuff. Um, you know,

(32:22):
they're not marrying. They're not, uh, reproducing the children that
they do have, they're more likely to abort. They're in
favor of transgender ideology. They view everything through the lens of, uh,
of an oppressor oppressed dynamic. There's no such thing as truth.
All of that runs so contrary to common sense, uh,

(32:43):
and basic human political organization in society. So I think
the vibe shift that we're having right now has less
to do. It has something to do with conservatives being
more muscular and forthright. It also has something to do
with progressives just actually being intellectually consistent with progressive presuppositions

(33:05):
and realizing how untenable that is as a worldview and
as a as an operating ethic for the rest of society.

S5 (33:13):
You know, Andrew, a lot of times the the left
will like to brand, uh, Christians and folks like, like
Charlie Kirk, um, as, uh, you know, just too political,
you know, um, you know, they can be political, but,
you know, Christians cannot be political. Uh, or if we are,

(33:33):
then we are Christian nationalists, right? Um, what is a
Christian nationalist today? Um, are you a Christian nationalist? And
more importantly, is Aaron a Christian nationalist?

S1 (33:44):
Yeah, a Christian nationalist is, uh, is anyone who, uh,
has Orthodox faith and is disliked by the New York Times, right? Yeah,
that that is actually how we define Christian nationalist. Um,
you know, no, I, I joke in saying that. I mean, listen, I,

(34:04):
I've written on this ad nauseam, uh, at this point,
Christian nationalism is a term that needs to be immediately defined.
Find and how it's defined is going to be, you know,
a question of of an eye of the beholder type
of of of gloss. If you're a New York Times
editorial opinion writer, um, it's probably the case that you

(34:28):
think if anyone is a conservative Christian and who thinks
their faith ought to relate to the public square, um,
they're going to fit the bill for being a Christian nationalist. Um,
I think that's cynical and a misunderstanding of how religion
relates in the public square. But I just think that's
that's how haphazardly, um, in, in cautious that term has

(34:50):
gotten applied in this conversation nationally. Now, I do think
that there are real Christian nationalists out there, but even
those who are self-identified as Christian nationalists have some disagreements
among themselves about the full implications of being a Christian nationalist.
So someone like Joe Rigney and Doug Wilson would be
comfortable with the label of Christian nationalism. Uh, but then

(35:14):
you have someone like Stephen Wolfe who has his own
definition of Christian nationalism, and there's some overlap between those two,
but there's also some differences. So that gets back to
my my bigger argument that I've made for a long
time is that it's it's endlessly pliable to the point that, um,

(35:35):
because you can't really give definition to it. It's not
a useful term unless you're going to adopt one particular
person's definition. If you are a Stephen Wolfe Christian nationalist. Um, okay.
That's that's something for you at least to define yourself
by or against. Uh, that gives us a working taxonomy of,

(35:55):
of ideas, uh, and principles related to the project. Um,
and if that's the case, then I am not a
Christian nationalist, but I'm also not this strict separationist, you know,
Baptist Joint Committee liberal from the 1980s and 1990s. I
believe in a robust place for religion in the public square.

(36:19):
For example, I love the fact that the sitting vice
president of the United States quoted from the Nicene Creed
yesterday on Twitter when he was hosting, uh, Charlie Kirk's
radio program. There's nothing in my Baptist taxonomy of church
and state that makes it improper for a sitting vice
president to recite the Nicene Creed in a public forum.

(36:40):
That's totally fine. That's a separate thing than, um, asking
a United States president to convene a general synod of
a religious body. Um, that's a separate thing than, uh,
putting blasphemy laws into place either in federal jurisdictions or

(37:02):
state jurisdictions. That's a different thing than putting a preamble
into the Constitution that says As we are a Christian nation,
we all acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Um,
I think that there are problems in all of those

(37:23):
particular situations that I've just described to be arguing for
a robust place for religion in society.

S3 (37:31):
So there's one Charlie Kirk clip that's been. Rattling, rattling
around my head, uh, quite a bit over these last
few days. Uh, and it's something we've talked about around
CCV before. Um, and I just feel like it's becoming
more and more stark. You know, the Charlie talked about

(37:54):
one time how, um, you know, the John Adams quote
that our Constitution was made wholly for a religious and
moral people. Um, and, and that's how we were able
to have a system of government. His point in this
we are able to have a system of government because
we have a broadly virtuous people. We did have a

(38:15):
Christian nation, um, of of predominantly Christians. This was not,
you know, a lot of times when we talk about
how America was a, you know, it was founded as
a Christian nation there thinking that we had, like Christianity
required in our our, uh, US Constitution, even though it
kind of wasn't a lot of our state constitutions, but
just broadly, it was a people that were predominantly of

(38:36):
the same Protestant faith. Um, and so because we were
all broadly Christian then, and there were Catholics there as well, obviously,
but because we were broadly all Christian then you can
have so much more liberties protected because there was a
lot more self regulation happening now. Um, and Charlie's pointing
this clip, and honestly, something we've talked about around here

(38:58):
before is we are not a Christian culture anymore. And
I think that's the reason why, you see, uh, a
lot of the struggles we have that we're dealing with
in politics all the time, right? We're spending more money
than ever on education, and we're getting, you know, 70%
of fourth graders are not proficient in reading. We're spending
more money than ever on mental health. Mental health is

(39:18):
getting worse. Uh, more money than ever on on drug treatment,
drug addiction and addictions getting worse. Um, one, do you
agree with this framework, Andrew? And where do we actually
go from here? I mean, does this mean we need
to start reevaluating, uh, the sort of the role as
Christians do? We need to start reevaluating the role of

(39:39):
government in our lives and maybe being more in favor
of a more restrictive government to compensate for people who
aren't self regulating.

S1 (39:47):
Um. So I would begin by stating, yeah, well, let
me absolutely agree with what Kirk was getting at. Um,
that statement from John Adams is, is famous. Um, for
good reason, because he's saying something profoundly true about biblical anthropology.

(40:10):
And what he's getting at there is that no matter
how much law we have, you could have a million
laws on the books. Um, if human beings cannot restrain
themselves and self-regulate or self-govern. No amount of law is
going to be able to sufficiently or adequately paper over

(40:34):
the endless lawlessness of of of human beings. Um, and
keep in mind, too, that the Constitution is just a
legal document. Uh, legal documents require that there be people
under the law who are able to be guided by
some type of deeper ethic than just what the law

(40:57):
itself can provide. You know, I'm I'm not a libertarian.
I believe that the law can teach individuals, uh, or
guide individuals in the direction of, of the moral good
and justice and righteousness. Um, but unless there is what
I would call like a, a pre-political communitarian ethic that

(41:23):
has formed the consciences of the body politic, um, society
is going to devolve into what judges talks about, that
everyone is doing what is right in their own eyes.
That is that is the terminal expression of what we
would call autonomy. And that's basically being a law unto

(41:44):
yourself when you cast off all other law, um, we
need God's law, uh, as a way to constrain us.
And I think what that means is, you know, I'm,
I'm a Baptist in these conversations, which means I don't
see I mean, I'm fine with civil religion. I'm fine
with civic Christianity. Um, but that won't work in the

(42:08):
long term. Apart from that, being grounded in a local
church setting where individuals are being actively discipled under the
preached word and held accountable to their Christian confession, uh,
in the confines of a local congregation. And so if
you're asking where do we go as as a society,

(42:31):
this is going to sound like really like a platitude,
but it's not a platitude. We need more people to
preach the gospel, and we need more people to be
serious disciples of Jesus Christ. That is ultimately the answer
to our society is conversion. Uh, we can hope that

(42:51):
those living downstream from a Christian culture can adopt the
mores and customs of a Christian culture. But if there
is not long term regeneration around those customs in 1
to 2 generation, unregenerate and unbelief will work its its
effects in the long term, which will ultimately be corrosive

(43:16):
for society.

S5 (43:17):
Andrew, would you also say that that we also need
believers to be political? Right. I was listening to an
interview you were in recently and you said we we
no longer live in a time where we can afford
to be non-political. Um, I think I know what you're
talking about. And to me, politics is, is man's way
of of getting their needs and wants met within, uh,

(43:40):
God's civil government, which I don't know how how you
don't do that. Um, even if you don't mean to,
you do it. Um, how would you define politics? And then.
And then what should the believers role be in politics?

S1 (43:57):
So I think the easy answer is we hear politics
and we think Republican. Democrat. We think November elections. Uh,
that is actually like a very superficial and thin definition
of politics. It includes, uh, it's included in our definition
of politics. But it's a very thin expression because ultimately, politics, uh,

(44:21):
is ultimately about how we order our lives together in society.
And if we work from that assumption, you may not
be interested in politics, but I guarantee that you absolutely
are political from little things like, do you like to
drive on safe roads? Uh, do you expect to be

(44:41):
able to go to the store safely? Uh, do you
want to have more money in your pocket or less
money in your pocket? Uh, what do you think kids
should be taught at school? All of these things are
imminently related to politics, but they're really just questions about
how do I want to live my life in society now? Truly,
if you don't care. How society is ordered around you,

(45:04):
maybe you genuinely are not political, but then at that
point I would simply say that you're derelict and you're completely, uh,
shrugging off the responsibilities of what I think it means
to be a godly Christian in society, which means to
care about the world around you, to care for your neighbor,
to make sure your neighbor is laboring under just laws.

(45:27):
Now to your question about should Christians be political? Um, yes, absolutely.
We should be political. Uh, that doesn't mean that Christian
churches on every single Sunday are preaching a political, um, liturgy. Uh,
or pastors are preaching politics every single Sunday. But it

(45:47):
does mean that Christians need to care about the shape
of the laws that are governing them. Uh, you know, I,
I will speak in churches and it never fails. Where
I will be asked by someone who is fatigued and annoyed.

(46:08):
And the question goes something like this. Uh, I'm tired
of the left owning everything. Uh, how can we push
back against the left? And my response to that is, well,
I can't just snap my fingers and all of a
sudden be in power. That's a political question. Uh, what
this actually reveals is that the left has had more

(46:30):
of a concern about the ordering of society than Christians
or conservatives have. So I hope a question like this, uh,
you know, unintentionally exposes the laziness and the apathy in
our own hearts from being able to say, well, we
just want to be left alone. Okay, well, here's the problem.
If you want to just be the ones left alone,

(46:50):
the people who actually want to usher in their agenda
are going to take advantage of your passivity, and they're
going to manipulate you and steer you into the direction
of society that they want. According to the vision that
they have planned. So absolutely, Christians need to be more political.
We need to run for office more often. We need
to run for school boards more often. Uh, but it

(47:13):
doesn't just mean like the act of politics. It means
that we need to form better institutions. We need to
form parallel institutions. Uh, and that work to both undermine
progressive dominance in society, but then also creating alternative visions
for for how society ought to be imagined. So I

(47:35):
could keep going, guys. I just I want Christians to
get a wider lens perspective on what it means to
be political. And if you had a wider lens, it
would necessarily draft you into a greater consciousness, that you
ought to care. Because we're called to love our neighbor.

(47:58):
We're called to seek the welfare of our city. And
a part of that is impossible to do apart from
a vision of the political.

S2 (48:08):
Andrew, I'm curious, based on the fact that you are
a professor of Christian ethics and public theology. If you
know what you're scratching at in your answer there about
politics is actually an issue of bringing our theology into
the public square and seeing that robust faith being lived
out and transforming our cultures and societies. Is that what
kind of the core of of a public theology idea is?

S1 (48:31):
Well, it absolutely is. But here's what I would say. Um, I,
I've gotten asked the question before by a reporter, like
if you had if you had society run according to
your Christian ideals, what would it look like? And I said, well,
it's going to look like nothing Thing revolutionary at all.

(48:53):
It's not going to look like you're forced to go
to church. It's not going to look like, uh, you know,
the dystopian Handmaid's Tale in Gilead that you might be
familiar with, um, what a Christian society is going to
look like. It's going to be a return to a
robust creation order system. It means that we're going to

(49:15):
have more people getting married. We're going to have more
babies being born. There's not going to be, uh, you know, systemic, uh,
taking of life of the unborn in our in our world, uh,
it's going to look like healthy, whole, intact communities. It's
going to look like less theft. Uh, it's going to
look like more honesty and virtue in society. And this

(49:39):
speaks to something very important. When you talked about how
we relate our theology to our politics, uh, you know,
crucial to what I teach in my classrooms is that
Christian theology is not an imposition on the world. Christian
theology is an unveiling of what the world was originally

(50:01):
designed to look like from the start. Which means the
non-Christian in my ideal Christian society is going to prosper
and benefit, even if they themselves are not a Christian,
because a return to a Christian society is just going
to look like a basic, just society in tune with

(50:23):
what we have in Genesis one and two and in
Genesis eight and nine. I hope that makes sense. Um, I,
I'm I'm really passionate about natural law theory, creation, order
and helping Christians understand that what we're proposing for the
world is not an alien imposition on the world. It's

(50:45):
not a sectarian ethic on the world. It's a way
for the world to to learn to live accordingly with
the design that was implanted upon it.

S3 (50:56):
That's well said, man. Um, and I think there's a lot, uh,
a ton there to unpack. I want to go back
a little bit to the conversation you were having with David, um,
about Christians and politics. Um, and I'm just going to
sort of state a position and then I'm interested in your,
your your take on it. Um, you know, for, uh,

(51:20):
years now, we've, I mean, for over 50 years, we've
been talking about the Johnson Amendment, which is, you know, the, the, the, the,
the law, the IRS rule in place that says, you know,
churches can't endorse candidates, ostensibly, uh, and they have to
refrain from political activity. Um, and, you know, this all
came back to the head again, uh, in a recent

(51:41):
court filing from the Trump administration, where they ostensibly implied
that they were not going to be enforcing the they
didn't think the Johnson Amendment was constitutional. We I would
generally agree with that. I think most folks involved in, uh,
the Christian legal movement would agree with that. Um, and,
you know, they weren't going to be the Trump administration
was saying they weren't going to be enforcing it, which

(52:02):
was great news, very exciting, all that kind of stuff. Um,
the interesting thing about it, though, was when it came out,
I a lot of pastors, I, a lot of friends
of mine were celebrating, very encouraged. But they would say
things like, this is great news. Now I'm not going
to endorse from the pulpit, pastors shouldn't be endorsing from
the pulpit, but it's just good that we don't have
this this regulation over the over top of us. And

(52:25):
my issue with those comments is we've on the whole,
pastors have assumed or Christians, not even I don't want
to put this on pastors. This is just general American
Christians have assumed it is wrong for a pastor to
endorse from the pulpit. Um, I'm not saying pastors must
endorse from the pulpit, but there's just a general assumption

(52:45):
that says, well, we know it would be sinful or
it would be wrong in some form or another for
a pastor to do that. And that's the that's the
issue I have here, is that there's just a general
assumption that, hey, that this is one thing in particular
that pastors cannot talk about. If they did that, that
would be wrong for them. Again, I don't even know
if I would be excited about my pastor coming out

(53:07):
and endorsing from the pulpit or talking about who they're
voting for every single time. But if a pastor feels
so led or feels that they have an obligation to
instruct their congregation in all of these other specific areas
and culture. But for some reason, when it just comes
to who you vote for and a very specific way
they shouldn't do it, that that feels like an arbitrary line. Yeah.

(53:31):
What what's your take on that?

S1 (53:32):
Yeah, I have a I have a somewhat, I don't know,
convoluted still working this thing out in my own mind
a little bit. Um, so, so I agree with you
that that line of. well, I'll talk about all the issues,
but I won't talk about a candidate. It is a
somewhat tenuous or porous line. Um, because obviously individuals will

(53:54):
either enact or not enact those things that you care for. Um,
so I want to, you know, if you'll allow me
to be a squish for a second or a third
way here, just for the sake of argument.

S3 (54:07):
I'm texting Eric Teetsel, as you say this.

S1 (54:08):
Yeah. That's right, that's right. Um, you know, I think
a pastor has, uh, the legal right to endorse should
a pastor want to do that? Uh, I'm not sure,
and I wouldn't I would never consider it sinful for
a pastor should they want to endorse from the pulpit. Uh,

(54:29):
I would question at times the wisdom of endorsing from pulpits. Now,
let's be clear here. There's a distinction between endorsing issues
and endorsing a candidate. Uh, when you endorse a candidate,
you're kind of buying the candidate, it seems. Uh, if
you're if you're endorsing the issues, I think you have

(54:52):
a better way to say, you know, what I'm interested is,
is in seeing people who will advance the ball for
my issues in, in whatever measurable ways they can. That's
how I'm ultimately going to vote. I've got issues X, Y,
and Z who will serve my interests and the categories

(55:13):
of X, Y, and Z. Now, individuals in the congregation
might be able to pick up by deduction. Well, that
sounds like candidate X rather than candidate Y. Uh, in
in the current moment that we're living in, to me,
that's probably what I would do in this situation, uh,
is focus on the issues rather than the candidate. But

(55:35):
I do want to say there is a legal right
to do so to to endorse a candidate. And let
me also hold out the potential for there being circumstances
where you ought to endorse a candidate. Um, I'm not
going to operate in the categories of never and always.

(55:57):
I'm going to operate in the categories of sometimes and maybe, uh,
those are going to be issues and decisions, um, made
on on fact specific and context specific, um, you know,
scenarios that require, uh, deliberation and decision making on a
case by case basis. But as a general rule, I

(56:19):
would say to the extent that you can focus in
on issues over candidates, that's what I would focus on endorsing.

S3 (56:26):
No, I think that's to me, that's exactly right in
that I don't want to say, hey, you know, whenever
I start talking about this immediately, somebody attendant oh, Aaron wants,
you know, pastors to go out there and turn their,
you know, sanctuaries into a Maga rally and things like that.
And that's not that's not what we're talking about. But
it is just the this idea that we don't talk

(56:48):
about politics and we don't endorse candidates from the pulpit has,
you know, seeped so deeply into our Christian congregation that the, the,
the secondary message that gets received.

S1 (56:59):
Yes, yes. Okay. So so let me say something about that,
because the, the, the effects of the Johnson amendment were,
were more secondary than substantive because no one ever actually
like in any real material, materially harmful way used the
Johnson amendment to like come after churches. The Johnson amendment

(57:23):
was really just a symbolic action to shut Christians up
and to to make pastors and churches fearful. That was
really the effect of the Johnson Amendment. So I am
happy for the Johnson amendment to be gone, not because
I'm looking for pastors to endorse candidates, but because pastors
and churches need to eliminate the excuse that there is

(57:47):
some type of legal dragnet hanging over them that's preventing
them from weighing in, even under the Johnson Amendment pretenses.
It was really only saying, don't, don't endorse candidates on stationery.
It was never actually even being applied to issues. Now
the whole thing has been knocked clear, and there's no
excuses for pastors to hold up any legal reservations at

(58:10):
this point.

S3 (58:11):
Well, and there's just the secondary message of the Johnson
Amendment has just created this divide in people's mind that
what the church has to talk about has nothing to
do with politics. I mean, we saw this with the
abortion amendment here that for the first time, we saw
more churches than ever speak out again on a political issue,

(58:31):
speak out and condemn the the the abortion amendment we
talked about here, even on this podcast, that I've never
had an issue where it was almost we were batting
almost a thousand, going to church and saying, hey, will
you speak out? And we were so encouraged. And then
we see one out of three weekly attending churchgoers voted
yes on the abortion.

S1 (58:49):
Yeah.

S3 (58:49):
Yeah. And I would just say it's because the pastors
had sort of handed over the political world for so
long that by the time they actually dove in there,
people said, this is not something for you to talk about, man.
I don't care about your opinion in this area. You
want to talk about how I, you know, I shouldn't
be cutting off people in traffic and I should be
kind and all this kind of stuff. Sure. But this
isn't this isn't your ground. Um, and that, to me,

(59:13):
is the the bigger issue here of like. No, no,
all of this is is our ground. Uh, we want
to approach it. Well. Again, we had a really good
conversation with our staff this week about it. One of
our our team members who goes to a predominantly black church, uh,
talked about how their pastor did a really great job
talking about Charlie Kirk, but is aware that their congregation

(59:34):
has a mix of Republicans and Democrats. And so was
very intentional about talking about it at the end of
the service, because they didn't want that that topic to
distract from the gospel conversation they were having, the sermon
they had to go through. Um, and I thought that
was such a really great, like, contextualization of leading a
local church in this where we are today.

S1 (59:57):
So, um, I'm going to go back to one thing
you just said that I found fascinating that one out
of three church going Ohioans voted the wrong way. Um,
I think I think stats stats like that are a
massive repudiation that, uh, kind of of, of a, of
a leftist narrative that Christians are, like, politically obsessed. And

(01:00:24):
we spend all of our time at MAGA rallies and
watching Fox News. Um.

S3 (01:00:29):
David is but the rest of us.

S2 (01:00:31):
We can barely get him to work some days.

S6 (01:00:33):
Yeah. So here's the thing.

S1 (01:00:34):
Like, statistically, we know the average progressive is far more
ideologically convicted, convicted, and ideologically mobilized than their corresponding Christian
conservative in their community. Ryan Berg, who's really not like
a conservative evangelical by any stretch. I mean, he has

(01:00:58):
the data on this that says, like the more secular
you are, the more politically agitated and and activated and
mobilized you are. So I think that, um, we need
to push back on kind of this progressive narrative that
Christians are all politically obsessed. That is I mean, I
speak in churches all over the country, and that is

(01:01:20):
never my experience. Uh, I would say in a typical congregation,
you do have, you know, your, your, your like, very aggressive,
hyper activated, conservative Christian. They are actually the vast exception
to the majority of the people in the pews. I
can I can think of my own Southern Baptist church

(01:01:41):
in Louisville, Kentucky. I know it's a very conservative church.
Just by general disposition. The number of people who I
would consider to be like political savants who are leading,
you know, voter registration drives, uh, is exceptionally rare. So
let's just remember.

S3 (01:02:01):
You're you're an old FEC guy. You know how hard
it is to get a church to speak about anything
like the like. The stereotype we get is just so.

S1 (01:02:10):
Here's here's think about this. The Southern Baptist Convention has, uh,
roughly 13 to 14 million members. If if the Southern
Baptist Convention was to get 14 million people to vote
in unison, we would be the most powerful political bloc
in the United States. And I don't think that we

(01:02:33):
have all of our people, people voting, which, you know,
I one of the things I would love data on
is what percentage of of Southern Baptists didn't vote or
don't vote, and I don't have any hunch on that. Um,
but it goes to show you that stereotypes don't live
up to reality.

S3 (01:02:52):
That that's just so you guys know, that's Andrews as
a good Southern Baptist. His his long plot to bring
back the 18th amendment and bring back the ban on
all alcohol. Uh, but thankfully Southern Baptists can't agree on
on much. So, uh.

S2 (01:03:06):
So, you know, I think you're outnumbered in this conversation.
Just be careful. Well, uh, Andrew, this has been a
great conversation. I'm sure we could keep it going for
for even longer.

S3 (01:03:16):
Seriously, I got, like, three other questions here, but we
ran out of time to.

S7 (01:03:19):
Talk about IVF. Oh, gosh. Oh, hey, bring me back.
I'd love. I'd love to come back. We gotta talk.

S2 (01:03:26):
Well, we'll get there. We'll have Andrew back. We'll try
and find a time. Uh, not too far down the
road where we can get you back on the program, Andrew.
But before we let you go, I know you've got
your work out there for people to find, so what's
the best way they can follow along if they want
to check out what you're doing?

S1 (01:03:41):
Yeah. Uh, my ex account at Andrew T, as in
Thomas walk, Andrew T walk. I'm pretty active there. And
I link to all my, uh, writings. And, uh, I
have a podcast that, uh, I think Aaron has alluded to.
It's called the Bully Pulpit Podcast. We link to the, the,
the episodes on on X as well. So give that
a follow.

S2 (01:04:00):
Andrew, thanks so much. It's been great having you today
here on the narrative.

S1 (01:04:04):
Thank you.

S2 (01:04:10):
Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the
narrative presented by CCV and produced by Wessler Media. If
you found today's episode insightful, leave us a review or
rating and subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts. We're your host,
Mike Andrews, Aaron Baer, and David Mehan, and we'll see
you next time on the.