March 10, 2024 • 10 mins
Find out more about why it’s so important to manage fatigue, in today’s episode of The Road Safety Podcast.
Our host, Dr Karen McDonnell - Occupational Safety and Health Policy Adviser at RoSPA, is joined by Fiona O’Donnell, who leads on driving related risk for Jacobs.
This ‘how to’ podcast is part of the work of the Scottish Occupational Road Safety Alliance project, funded by Transport Scotland and delivered by RoSPA, that contributes to Scotland’s Road Safety Framework to 2030.
The Road Safety Podcast is produced by Fresh Air Production and the producer is Juliette Nicholls – don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a review, so you don’t miss an episode.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (00:03):
Well, welcome to The Road Safety Podcast. This is a
podcast that helps share how to manage the risks associated
with driving and riding for work, with me, Dr. Karen
McDonnell, occupational health and safety policy advisor at RoSPA. This
how to podcast series is part of the work of the Scottish
Occupational Road Safety Alliance project funded by Transport Scotland and
(00:25):
delivered by RoSPA, that contribute to Scotland's Road Safety Framework
to 2030. Evidence shows that speed, seat belts, distraction, fatigue,
drink, drug driving and driver health remain key issues for
people and organizations. This how to series provides insights into
how one organization has tackled these issues and shares lessons
(00:46):
learned. And today's episode is all about fatigue, managing fatigue,
and where this fits within an overall strategy for managing
driving risk. I'm joined by Fiona O'Donnell, global health and
safety strategy lead at Jacobs, who are passionate about getting
road safety right. There's a higher risk of collisions, drivers
have slower reaction times and are less attentive when driving.
(01:09):
Collisions are 50% more likely to end up in death
or serious injury. When they're asleep, drivers don't brake and
try to avoid the collision. For this reason, such collisions
tend to be more severe and high impact. So, a
simple lack of sleep is typically the main problem, although,
shift working and driving after a full day's work also
have an impact. How do you check in with managers
(01:31):
to ensure they are accounting for these factors when planning work?
Fiona O'Donnell (01:35):
Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. So, our travel planning
process requires us to have conversations and risk assess properly
around where you're going, how you're getting there, and what
to do if you don't turn up. Part of that is,
obviously, your working week and your working day and understanding
how distracted you are or can impact the sound decisions
(01:58):
that you're supposed to make when you get into a
vehicle. So, understanding working hours and understanding fatigue in general
is an important part of our travel planning process.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (02:07):
And just out of interest, do you have within your
organization, I know it's all risk assessed towards reducing the
number of miles driven, but do you have a maximum
number of hours that people spend at work on a daily
basis? That's a question that we're sometimes asked in terms
of a compare and contrast, whereby there might be a
(02:28):
certain amount of time to travel to a site, certain
number of hours worked, and then, either stay over or
return the same day. Just interested, really, in what your
approach is there.
Fiona O'Donnell (02:39):
Yeah. So, a huge investment from Jacobs, to be honest,
in this whole management of work- related road risk. We
were very cognizant of that, that we had people, particularly
our project people who would drive long distances, particularly across
the US where from site to site can be hundreds
of kilometers. So, part of our process and part of
(03:03):
our procedure is that if you have to drive more
than 300 miles in a day, that requires a higher
level of sign off for that journey. And part of
it is, we will put you in a hotel for
the night. So, it will always be a question that
we ask, " How are you feeling?" And if you want
to stay over, if that's something that, between the conversation
(03:24):
between our staff and their line manager, they determine that
that's the right thing to do because of the hours
they've worked that day or the type of work they're
doing on site once they get to site, or it's
just too long a journey, it's over the 300 kilometers
a day. We will put you into a hotel and
pay for that, to make sure that you get a
half decent night's sleep before you get into the car
(03:45):
the following morning.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
The Road Safety Podcast is brought to you by the
Scottish Occupational Road Safety Alliance and funded by Transport Scotland.
For further information, visit our website www. scorsa. org. uk.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (04:05):
And how do you find that drivers themselves respond to
that? Because the instinct for people is to want to come
home. We find that from lots of conversations with other
organizations that these measures are put in place to protect
people, but there is that literal drive for people to
return home. How do you manage that situation?
Fiona O'Donnell (04:24):
Yeah. So, look, this is down to culture, isn't it?
We always say in Jacobs, family first. So, as part
of that conversation, if you need to put yourself at
risk and we need to put ourselves at risk as
an organization by allowing you to get into the car
after you've worked 12 hours because you need to get
home, we need to have a conversation about that. So,
(04:46):
it might not necessarily mean that we don't allow you
to take the journey, it just might not be in
a car. But again, this comes down to that relationship
between our people and their teams and their managers and
the psychological safety we've talked about before. Feeling comfortable raising
issues, feeling comfortable telling your line manager that you need
(05:09):
to be home for a family occasion. Look, we had
a fatality in 2012. We had a great guy who
was parachuted in to help out a project, and he
lived in Manchester. We asked him to go to a
meeting in London on a Thursday morning. He had his
(05:30):
child's school recital on the Wednesday night. And you talk
about the willing worker, he wanted to do the right
thing by everybody. He wanted to go to his kid's
recital, but he also wanted to help Jacobs out and
be at that meeting the following morning. So, he went
to the recital. After doing a full day's work, he
got into his car and he never made it to
London. His car left the road before he got to
(05:53):
London. And we'll never know what happened before that car
left the road, but certainly, devastating impact for his family.
He had a blended family. He was due to get
married. So, there was a number of children that relied
on him. Devastating impact to our organization because he had
(06:14):
a team of people that worked with him, that are
still feeling the impact of his untimely death. And for
what? For what? He won't ever return home and lives
have been absolutely devastated. Work doesn't matter, it's family first,
but it comes down to that relationship and that culture
(06:36):
between your staff and the people that are directing work
in your organization.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (06:41):
And that's a life changing example you've given us there,
which has had an impact and will continue to have
an impact on all the players involved. And I appreciate you
sharing that. From a driver's perspective, in an organization that
doesn't feel like it's got the family- first approach, whereby
(07:02):
you've got a driver who says, " I've really been feeling
tired for the last few weeks. I've not been sleeping
well. How should I raise that with my employer?" What's
the best first step to take there for people, do you think?
Fiona O'Donnell (07:15):
Just have the conversation. It can be really difficult if
they feel that once they disclose this, that it can
impact the work that they get and the work that
they do. And I totally understand and appreciate that there
are a lot of organizations that aren't, I suppose, on
the same journey that we're on, but it comes down
(07:38):
to what you've got at home and the people that
are relying on you and whether it's the right thing
to take that risk or not. This one's a really open-
ended question, Karen, isn't it? Because it's really hard to
answer it without getting into specifics of organizations on how
to change culture.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (07:56):
And then for that, just the final question here, just
again, to pick out where someone a couple of times
a week, has to undertake site visits. There's not an
alternative way of getting to site given the geographical location.
I'm going to say it's only twice a week. So,
the employer might think that that's not too repetitious, but
(08:18):
the driver themselves is concerned that they are tired on
their return journey. And again, how best to raise this
with their employer.
Fiona O'Donnell (08:26):
Yeah. So, I suppose, from an employer and organization perspective,
you've got to be really clear about this in terms
of your strategy and in terms of your overall risk
management. If you are driving for work, you're at work,
so your office effectively becomes the vehicle that they're in,
and you must manage that risk. You have a legal obligation to
manage the risk. You have a moral obligation to manage
(08:48):
the risk. So, I think there's a huge awareness that
us, as leaders in this area, need to help to
try and influence, because there is a real lack of
understanding across our industry about work- related road risk and
the fact that it is something that an employer has
to manage. I mean, if you look at Jacobs, typically
you would never consider that driving would be our biggest
(09:11):
risk. We do all kinds of weird and wonderful stuff,
but actually, driving is our biggest risk. We hurt more
people in cars every year than we do on some
of our highest risk construction projects around the world. So,
if you're an employer and you think driving for work
doesn't apply to you, you are absolutely wrong. It doesn't matter
(09:32):
what size your organization are, if you have staff that
work outside of one location, even if it's once a
month and you've only got one person out of 200
that has to leave that place of work and go
and do a site visit or a client visit or
whatever it is, that is driving for work and that
risk has to be managed.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (09:54):
Well, my thanks to Fiona O'Donnell, and thanks to you
for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your
usual podcast provider, so you don't miss an episode. And
we would really love it if you could leave a
review. It really makes the podcast easier for others to
find. The Road Safety Podcast is produced by Fresh Air
Production. And I'm Karen McDonnell, and thank you for listening.
Well, welcome to The Road Safety Podcast. This is a
podcast that helps share how to manage the risks associated
with driving and riding for work, with me, Dr. Karen
McDonnell, occupational health and safety policy advisor at RoSPA. This
how to podcast series is part of the work of the Scottish
Occupational Road Safety Alliance project funded by Transport Scotland and
(00:25):
delivered by RoSPA, that contribute to Scotland's Road Safety Framework
to 2030. Evidence shows that speed, seat belts, distraction, fatigue,
drink, drug driving and driver health remain key issues for
people and organizations. This how to series provides insights into
how one organization has tackled these issues and shares lessons
(00:46):
learned. And today's episode is all about fatigue, managing fatigue,
and where this fits within an overall strategy for managing
driving risk. I'm joined by Fiona O'Donnell, global health and
safety strategy lead at Jacobs, who are passionate about getting
road safety right. There's a higher risk of collisions, drivers
have slower reaction times and are less attentive when driving.
(01:09):
Collisions are 50% more likely to end up in death
or serious injury. When they're asleep, drivers don't brake and
try to avoid the collision. For this reason, such collisions
tend to be more severe and high impact. So, a
simple lack of sleep is typically the main problem, although,
shift working and driving after a full day's work also
have an impact. How do you check in with managers
(01:31):
to ensure they are accounting for these factors when planning work?
Fiona O'Donnell (01:35):
Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good question. So, our travel planning
process requires us to have conversations and risk assess properly
around where you're going, how you're getting there, and what
to do if you don't turn up. Part of that is,
obviously, your working week and your working day and understanding
how distracted you are or can impact the sound decisions
(01:58):
that you're supposed to make when you get into a
vehicle. So, understanding working hours and understanding fatigue in general
is an important part of our travel planning process.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (02:07):
And just out of interest, do you have within your
organization, I know it's all risk assessed towards reducing the
number of miles driven, but do you have a maximum
number of hours that people spend at work on a daily
basis? That's a question that we're sometimes asked in terms
of a compare and contrast, whereby there might be a
(02:28):
certain amount of time to travel to a site, certain
number of hours worked, and then, either stay over or
return the same day. Just interested, really, in what your
approach is there.
Fiona O'Donnell (02:39):
Yeah. So, a huge investment from Jacobs, to be honest,
in this whole management of work- related road risk. We
were very cognizant of that, that we had people, particularly
our project people who would drive long distances, particularly across
the US where from site to site can be hundreds
of kilometers. So, part of our process and part of
(03:03):
our procedure is that if you have to drive more
than 300 miles in a day, that requires a higher
level of sign off for that journey. And part of
it is, we will put you in a hotel for
the night. So, it will always be a question that
we ask, " How are you feeling?" And if you want
to stay over, if that's something that, between the conversation
(03:24):
between our staff and their line manager, they determine that
that's the right thing to do because of the hours
they've worked that day or the type of work they're
doing on site once they get to site, or it's
just too long a journey, it's over the 300 kilometers
a day. We will put you into a hotel and
pay for that, to make sure that you get a
half decent night's sleep before you get into the car
(03:45):
the following morning.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
The Road Safety Podcast is brought to you by the
Scottish Occupational Road Safety Alliance and funded by Transport Scotland.
For further information, visit our website www. scorsa. org. uk.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (04:05):
And how do you find that drivers themselves respond to
that? Because the instinct for people is to want to come
home. We find that from lots of conversations with other
organizations that these measures are put in place to protect
people, but there is that literal drive for people to
return home. How do you manage that situation?
Fiona O'Donnell (04:24):
Yeah. So, look, this is down to culture, isn't it?
We always say in Jacobs, family first. So, as part
of that conversation, if you need to put yourself at
risk and we need to put ourselves at risk as
an organization by allowing you to get into the car
after you've worked 12 hours because you need to get
home, we need to have a conversation about that. So,
(04:46):
it might not necessarily mean that we don't allow you
to take the journey, it just might not be in
a car. But again, this comes down to that relationship
between our people and their teams and their managers and
the psychological safety we've talked about before. Feeling comfortable raising
issues, feeling comfortable telling your line manager that you need
(05:09):
to be home for a family occasion. Look, we had
a fatality in 2012. We had a great guy who
was parachuted in to help out a project, and he
lived in Manchester. We asked him to go to a
meeting in London on a Thursday morning. He had his
(05:30):
child's school recital on the Wednesday night. And you talk
about the willing worker, he wanted to do the right
thing by everybody. He wanted to go to his kid's
recital, but he also wanted to help Jacobs out and
be at that meeting the following morning. So, he went
to the recital. After doing a full day's work, he
got into his car and he never made it to
London. His car left the road before he got to
(05:53):
London. And we'll never know what happened before that car
left the road, but certainly, devastating impact for his family.
He had a blended family. He was due to get
married. So, there was a number of children that relied
on him. Devastating impact to our organization because he had
(06:14):
a team of people that worked with him, that are
still feeling the impact of his untimely death. And for
what? For what? He won't ever return home and lives
have been absolutely devastated. Work doesn't matter, it's family first,
but it comes down to that relationship and that culture
(06:36):
between your staff and the people that are directing work
in your organization.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (06:41):
And that's a life changing example you've given us there,
which has had an impact and will continue to have
an impact on all the players involved. And I appreciate you
sharing that. From a driver's perspective, in an organization that
doesn't feel like it's got the family- first approach, whereby
(07:02):
you've got a driver who says, " I've really been feeling
tired for the last few weeks. I've not been sleeping
well. How should I raise that with my employer?" What's
the best first step to take there for people, do you think?
Fiona O'Donnell (07:15):
Just have the conversation. It can be really difficult if
they feel that once they disclose this, that it can
impact the work that they get and the work that
they do. And I totally understand and appreciate that there
are a lot of organizations that aren't, I suppose, on
the same journey that we're on, but it comes down
(07:38):
to what you've got at home and the people that
are relying on you and whether it's the right thing
to take that risk or not. This one's a really open-
ended question, Karen, isn't it? Because it's really hard to
answer it without getting into specifics of organizations on how
to change culture.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (07:56):
And then for that, just the final question here, just
again, to pick out where someone a couple of times
a week, has to undertake site visits. There's not an
alternative way of getting to site given the geographical location.
I'm going to say it's only twice a week. So,
the employer might think that that's not too repetitious, but
(08:18):
the driver themselves is concerned that they are tired on
their return journey. And again, how best to raise this
with their employer.
Fiona O'Donnell (08:26):
Yeah. So, I suppose, from an employer and organization perspective,
you've got to be really clear about this in terms
of your strategy and in terms of your overall risk
management. If you are driving for work, you're at work,
so your office effectively becomes the vehicle that they're in,
and you must manage that risk. You have a legal obligation to
manage the risk. You have a moral obligation to manage
(08:48):
the risk. So, I think there's a huge awareness that
us, as leaders in this area, need to help to
try and influence, because there is a real lack of
understanding across our industry about work- related road risk and
the fact that it is something that an employer has
to manage. I mean, if you look at Jacobs, typically
you would never consider that driving would be our biggest
(09:11):
risk. We do all kinds of weird and wonderful stuff,
but actually, driving is our biggest risk. We hurt more
people in cars every year than we do on some
of our highest risk construction projects around the world. So,
if you're an employer and you think driving for work
doesn't apply to you, you are absolutely wrong. It doesn't matter
(09:32):
what size your organization are, if you have staff that
work outside of one location, even if it's once a
month and you've only got one person out of 200
that has to leave that place of work and go
and do a site visit or a client visit or
whatever it is, that is driving for work and that
risk has to be managed.
Dr. Karen McDonnell (09:54):
Well, my thanks to Fiona O'Donnell, and thanks to you
for listening. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast on your
usual podcast provider, so you don't miss an episode. And
we would really love it if you could leave a
review. It really makes the podcast easier for others to
find. The Road Safety Podcast is produced by Fresh Air
Production. And I'm Karen McDonnell, and thank you for listening.
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